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Heckler VS El Chamuco????

2K views 16 replies 11 participants last post by  AL29er 
#1 ·
Has anyone ridden both these frames?

I had a Heckler and sold it for a TALAS switchblade. Reaalllly liked the heckler, and especially the tuneability of the 5th, and am thinking of going back to it or the Ventana El Chamuco. Really I didn't see a really dramatic difference in the horst-link 4-bar VS the single pivot heckler for my riding, and I DO NOT like the air FOX propedal performance. Too much spike over the small stuff, not enough ramp up in the end of the stroke for my tastes. The Switchblade feels a bit nervous over the stuff I ride, but at low speeds it's a great bike.

I am in the process of selling the TALAS fork (5") for a Nixon (6"). both are adjustable travel, if I cared to change it for geometry reasons.

The heckler inspired a lot of confidence in my riding and had me trying things I normally wouldn't do. The bike ate up most anything. My only complaints are the fairly minor but noticeable flex in the rear end, slightly low bottom bracket, and the fact that now my buddy has a heckler, so I'd like to be a little different.

My thought is that the El Chamuco is comparable in geometry to the heckler, has a higher bottom bracket, and has the link on the rear end which I would think would eliminate most of the flex issues of the rear end I mentioned. It does have about 1" more travel than the heckler, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Any thoughts from someone out there that has tried both frames? Seems tough to find someone who has ridden an El Chamuco.

Thanks in advance!

-T
 
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#2 ·
ventana puts a lot of engineering and work into their frames. The Heckler is not a horrible bike, but it's not the stiffest rear end ever. There's not much to counter twisting forces. A swing link like on a foes would dramatically stiffen the bike, but it would also increase the price significantly. Ventana on the other hand does a good job with their bearing design and they design a lot of rigidity into the frame with the pivots. The ventana will also be more progressive without needing a "platform" shock, so you may end up liking the suspension of the ventana better.
 
#4 ·
Thanks

Do you think the slacker head angle will be too "floppy" for HD trail use?

How does the Romic compare to the 5th coil? I have never ridden a Romic, but I did LOVE the 5th coil.

Thanks for the input

-T
 
#5 ·
TomFL said:
Do you think the slacker head angle will be too "floppy" for HD trail use?

How does the Romic compare to the 5th coil? I have never ridden a Romic, but I did LOVE the 5th coil.

Thanks for the input

-T
THe romic coil is less harsh than the 5th, so it usually feels (suspends) better. No, I don't believe the HA will be too floppy, mine is 68 on my FXR and it does just fine.
 
#7 ·
Flexy Heckler.

TomFL said:
Do you think the slacker head angle will be too "floppy" for HD trail use?

How does the Romic compare to the 5th coil? I have never ridden a Romic, but I did LOVE the 5th coil.

Thanks for the input

-T
I recently picked up a Heckler and was wondering in what situations do you notice the rear end flex in the Heckler? I keep hearing about the flex issue but I do not notice it when I am riding. Is it mostly in tight turning dh situations when the flex becomes more noticeable on a Heckler? I weigh 210lbs and I ride hard on technical trails and thought it might have been an issue by now. Maybe it is flexing and I dont notice it? What should I look for to notice the flex asides from pushing on the rear triangle with brute force?

The El whatever sounds like a good ride. I have never saw one around Calgary.
 
#9 ·
ronny said:
I recently picked up a Heckler and was wondering in what situations do you notice the rear end flex in the Heckler? I keep hearing about the flex issue but I do not notice it when I am riding. Is it mostly in tight turning dh situations when the flex becomes more noticeable on a Heckler? I weigh 210lbs and I ride hard on technical trails and thought it might have been an issue by now. Maybe it is flexing and I dont notice it? What should I look for to notice the flex asides from pushing on the rear triangle with brute force?

The El whatever sounds like a good ride. I have never saw one around Calgary.
The flex issue is with the rear end, and I noticed it mostly in hard g-outs or off-camber landings. You get a sort of vague feeling in the rear end, and it tracks funny for that split second. It's not a huge issue for me, and I would buy another Heckler in a heartbeat as I feel it's one of the best bikes out there for the riding I do. Actually the best one I've found so far. Again, so I don't get flamed on this board, remember I said for the riding I do! Just thought if I noticed it, why not find a bike that would solve that issue if possible.

It's an inherent problem with the SP rear end I would think. As an XC racer, I am always shocked by riding behind others on Superlights in a paceline over flat terrain. When you're up close and tucked in drafting them and you look at the seat tube/swingarm intersection, you can CLEARLY see the swingarm moving side-to-side with each pedal stroke. I would imagine hard G-outs, etc would put MUCH more load on that area than a rider could by pedaling.

Although I have to add that a heckler is built MUCH sturdier than the superlight, no doubt.

My goal is to find a bike that rode just like the heckler, but fixed those minor things I wasn't totally happy with on it.

-T
 
#10 ·
I had an '03 Heckler, now ride el Chamuco...

During the last 2 years, I've owned a Heckler then a Bullit and now a Chamuco. All frames were built up w/ same '03 5" Z1 20mm fork and parts ('03 SC R-FR kit stripped off 'old' frame to put on 'new' one). The only difference in bikes is the Romic shock on Chamuco vs 5th Element coil on the SC's. Although I should be able to compare the differences for those frames & shocks, take my comments w/ a grain of salt because work, kids, and injury have severely limited my riding time. By the way, I'm 165lbs and I'm not a big air hucker.

I rode the Heckler last year, including a few days in BC--Whistler, etc. I liked everything about it's ride quality, but wanted a slacker head angle for more stability at high speed & on steeps, etc.

I replaced the Heckler w/ a Bullit frame, mainly for the slacker geometry, and basically got what I wanted: a slack angled trail bike. BTW, the Bullit frame + shock is only about 1-1.5 lbs heavier than a Heckler frame + shock, so if you can build a 31+ lb Heckler trailbike, you can throw the same parts on the Bullit resulting in a slacker angled / longer travel 33lb trailbike.

FWIW, I couldn't appreciate any major difference in climbing on the 'heavier' Bullit vs climbing on the 'lighter' Heckler. I never would have sold the Bullit, but I stumbled upon a great deal for the Chamuco frame, so I sold the Bullit and bought the Chamuco last month. Regarding relative frame + shock weights (measured by my less than precise bathroom scale), medium Heckler + 5th weighed about 7-7.5 lbs, medium Bullit + 5th weighed about 8.5-9 lbs, and small Chamuco + Romic is in between, around 8 lbs.

I am more than happy w/ the Chamuco. I agree w/ JM, the Romic feels less harsh / more active or plush than the 5th, but to be fair I haven't ridden the Chamuco + Romic on terrain as technical as I have with the Heckler and Bullit. The HA on the Chamuco is slack, maybe slacker than the 68 degrees published on the Ventana web site, but I'd rather trade front end steering 'quickness' for increased stablity at speed or on steeps.

If cost isn't an issue, I would recommend the Chamuco.
Dave
 
#12 ·
More ride time needed.

TomFL said:
The flex issue is with the rear end, and I noticed it mostly in hard g-outs or off-camber landings. You get a sort of vague feeling in the rear end, and it tracks funny for that split second. It's not a huge issue for me, and I would buy another Heckler in a heartbeat as I feel it's one of the best bikes out there for the riding I do. Actually the best one I've found so far. Again, so I don't get flamed on this board, remember I said for the riding I do! Just thought if I noticed it, why not find a bike that would solve that issue if possible.

It's an inherent problem with the SP rear end I would think. As an XC racer, I am always shocked by riding behind others on Superlights in a paceline over flat terrain. When you're up close and tucked in drafting them and you look at the seat tube/swingarm intersection, you can CLEARLY see the swingarm moving side-to-side with each pedal stroke. I would imagine hard G-outs, etc would put MUCH more load on that area than a rider could by pedaling.

Although I have to add that a heckler is built MUCH sturdier than the superlight, no doubt.

My goal is to find a bike that rode just like the heckler, but fixed those minor things I wasn't totally happy with on it.

-T
I need a few more rides on my Heckler to accurately judge the flex issue I guess. I think it comes down to feel as well. I am sure if I was on the Chamuco I would be able to tell the difference in torsional rigidity. I agree 100% on the Romic being a less harsh riding shock than the 5th element. I feel the little bumps much more with the 5th and it does not become truly comfortable like the Romic no matter how much it is dialed in. Apples and Oranges IMO. Reliability and the Romic is another topic. I have a romic on my Gemini and the rebound and compression have crapped out and now I have a shock that is like a wet noodle. Totally useless.

The 5th cancels out bob, but who cares if it is not very comfortable. I have given the 5th a chance and have ridden my new bike many times now and when I get the scratch together the 5th is gone. I do like the overall performance of the Heckler though. Off topic, but I went to my LBS and there was a couple built up Turner 5-spots. The salesman told me that the red 5spot in this little shop in Calgary, Alberta was the last one being sold in North America. B.S. probably but I love the 5-spot regardless.
 
#13 ·
Info from Interbike on El Chamuco

TomFL said:
Has anyone ridden both these frames?

I had a Heckler and sold it for a TALAS switchblade. Reaalllly liked the heckler, and especially the tuneability of the 5th, and am thinking of going back to it or the Ventana El Chamuco. Really I didn't see a really dramatic difference in the horst-link 4-bar VS the single pivot heckler for my riding, and I DO NOT like the air FOX propedal performance. Too much spike over the small stuff, not enough ramp up in the end of the stroke for my tastes. The Switchblade feels a bit nervous over the stuff I ride, but at low speeds it's a great bike.

I am in the process of selling the TALAS fork (5") for a Nixon (6"). both are adjustable travel, if I cared to change it for geometry reasons.

The heckler inspired a lot of confidence in my riding and had me trying things I normally wouldn't do. The bike ate up most anything. My only complaints are the fairly minor but noticeable flex in the rear end, slightly low bottom bracket, and the fact that now my buddy has a heckler, so I'd like to be a little different.

My thought is that the El Chamuco is comparable in geometry to the heckler, has a higher bottom bracket, and has the link on the rear end which I would think would eliminate most of the flex issues of the rear end I mentioned. It does have about 1" more travel than the heckler, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Any thoughts from someone out there that has tried both frames? Seems tough to find someone who has ridden an El Chamuco.

Thanks in advance!

-T
I too was interested in this bike, so at I-Bike and Demo Days I wanted to see and ride one. It was mysteriously absent at the Demo Days. I also noticed that it was absent at the Ventana booth. I asked a rep about it, and he said that it was being replaced with some form of rocker arm type linkage model. He said the El Chamuco was getting used for some out and out freeriding and was having failure issues in the seat tube area. He said the EC was really just supposed to be a trailbike, but its perceived beefiness caused riders to use it a little more harshly than its intended design. I'm just passing this on, and I don't know how good his info was. He seemed knowledgeable about it, and I can't think of any reason for him to make it up.
 
#15 ·
TNC said:
I too was interested in this bike, so at I-Bike and Demo Days I wanted to see and ride one. It was mysteriously absent at the Demo Days. I also noticed that it was absent at the Ventana booth. I asked a rep about it, and he said that it was being replaced with some form of rocker arm type linkage model. He said the El Chamuco was getting used for some out and out freeriding and was having failure issues in the seat tube area. He said the EC was really just supposed to be a trailbike, but its perceived beefiness caused riders to use it a little more harshly than its intended design. I'm just passing this on, and I don't know how good his info was. He seemed knowledgeable about it, and I can't think of any reason for him to make it up.
Well that's cool to hear, because I really am not into giant hucking. I just want a confidence inspiring, slacker HA trailbike that will eat up anything I throw at it. Sounds like I've picked the right sled.

The one thing that I found odd about the frame was the use of the 27.2 seatpost, which I think is a little small for a bkie like this. Perhaps that was a contributing factor to the failure in that area for the guys that were hucking them.

I will say thanks to the guys that have offered insight on this forum, and those that have contacted me off-forum as well. I was able to get the last medium frame at Ventana through my LBS, and am hoping it will be here early next week. Those that contacted me off-forum should know that while they did offer some great insight on the frame, and even had a lower cost on the frame than what I was able to get one for (some about $150 lower) I do have a great relationship with my LBS and right now with our local economy (we were hit directly by two hurricanes 3 weeks apart) I'd like to keep the extra $$ in the hands of local shops in the hopes it will continue to filter through locally.

I'll post a pic when it's done, but it looks like the wait will now be for the Nixon, as they are on backorder for a bit.
 
#16 ·
I own a Chamuco and have been very happy with it for a full season. The pivot is in a very good place for a trail bike (same as a Heckler), but the frame is considerably stiffer than similar models (Heckler). I have to agree with the other posters in that it is a HD trail bike and not a FR bike (as in Hucking), but I do feel comfortable hitting the dirt jumps and have done up to 8' drops to good trannies on it.

Go-ride.com has a Small & XL (last XL anywhere) on sale for $999 if anyone is interested.
 
#17 ·
TomFL said:
Those that contacted me off-forum should know that while they did offer some great insight on the frame, and even had a lower cost on the frame than what I was able to get one for (some about $150 lower) I do have a great relationship with my LBS and right now with our local economy (we were hit directly by two hurricanes 3 weeks apart) I'd like to keep the extra $$ in the hands of local shops in the hopes it will continue to filter through locally.
Nice to see someone online that still cares about the LBS. Sometimes it is hard for me to shell out extra, but keeping it in the shop sometimes is the only way to insure they will be around on a Saturday morning when you need a widget or cable to ride. Congrats on the new bike. If I didn't have a bro hookup on SC bikes I would have gone with the Ventana as well.

TomFL said:
The flex issue is with the rear end, and I noticed it mostly in hard g-outs or off-camber landings. You get a sort of vague feeling in the rear end, and it tracks funny for that split second. It's not a huge issue for me
That is probably the most accurate and fair description of Heckler flex that I have ever seen put down in words. Not a huge issue for me either, but it does make me do a quick doubletake when that "vague feeling" takes over for that split second.
 
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