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Boutique bikes?

2K views 27 replies 21 participants last post by  moishlashen 
#1 ·
What do you guys think about the "other" brands of bikes available, not your run of the mill Giant, Trek, Cannondale, GT, etc. your Ventanas, Turner, etc. Are they worth the extra money, or is it just the "prestige" of having one? What do you guys think?

- they're just crap, and overcharging for the "bling" factor.
- doesn't make a difference.
- might mean something, but it's not worth the money.
- they make a higher quality ride no doubt.
- worth every cent.
 
#3 ·
i have a turner, took me about a year to build it up, since i'm not swimming in money right now...but i love it, i'm glad i got it, it was worth every penny and has exceeded my expectations! :thumbsup:

does that mean that boutique bikes are better and everyone should get one? not necessarily...

but i have no regrets...i love my bike! :D
 
#4 ·
As Warren Buffet said: "Price is what you pay, value is what you get". I can't say for sure if they are worth the extra $$ as there are too many factors that go into an individual purchase. There are a lot of good bikes for the money (specialized, jamis), IMO. That said, I have never been disappointed with my Titus RX, and would happily do it again.
 
#5 ·
It is often the distinction between what you need and what you want.

A Volkswagen Golf will get you there... but you might prefer to get there in an Audi A3 (which uses many of the same parts).
 
#6 ·
This is a great topic.

Boutique bikes are for those that want to be different, even though they are the same as everyone else (Sinister, transition, Turner, etc are all prime examples of the same ole suspension design with a different builder) LAME.

Most of these small companies come and go. Mostly they go. So will your warranty and any tech support. If you have to be Unique, get one. If you want Quality, price, and Warranties, stay with a proven company... there's a reason they're there.
 
#7 ·
It has nothing to do with what I think (of a subjective point of view). At the time Titus was the only bike maker mfr'g a fully suspended bike in my diminutive size. It's 6 years old and rides just like the day I bought it in '00. The only thing I had to change out (except worn tires and the like) was a fox rear shock bushing. Lots of companies now realize the benefit of making bikes that not only work well, but last. A so called boutique bike is usually just that much better made. There are exceptions, but I don't feel it's done on purpose. Some folks beat the crap out of a bike. Even way more than it should be then blame the mfr when it fails.

Since there will always be people to ride bikes (hopefully) then you'll always have that small segment of the population that thinks no matter what they do it's never their fault. :)
 
#8 ·
IndecentExposure said:
This is a great topic.

Most of these small companies come and go. Mostly they go. So will your warranty and any tech support. If you have to be Unique, get one. If you want Quality, price, and Warranties, stay with a proven company... there's a reason they're there.
Anyone that buys a bike based on warranty and tech support should have their head examined.

Not all boutique bikes are created equal. Some are functional works of art that are wroth every penny. Others are high priced pieces of junk with department store fit and finish. Research before you buy.
Personally I like to know exactly who built my bike and therefor all my MTBs were handbuilt by people in their garages. No warranty written, assumed, or implied....and narry a problem.
Cannondale, Specialized, Trek, etc all make some great bikes and at some great prices. Its hard to justfy a boutique price unless you have the money for it, ie you've got a lot of disposable income.
 
#9 ·
I would say that boutique builders make a more refined bike and it rides as such. Mass producers make a sound bike which needs to appeal across a broad range of users. Boutique builders are not so concerned with building bikes for "everyone" Also, when you look at many of the owners of the boutique companies, you'll find people who've been invovled with bikes and racing for many years, so often many of their bike lines are very purpose built. Intense and Foes come to mind as great race brands (Specialized is very much like this, too. I'd say they are a big boutique). They are also acutely directed, without larger groups having input on design and such.

You'll see a lot more use of different materials, including even steel these days. These materials have different ride qualities that some may perfer.

I think they're worth it overall because you get a more refined product with a better finish that will last many years.
 
#10 ·
matteus said:
What do you guys think about the "other" brands of bikes available, not your run of the mill Giant, Trek, Cannondale, GT, etc. your Ventanas, Turner, etc. Are they worth the extra money, or is it just the "prestige" of having one? What do you guys think?

- they're just crap, and overcharging for the "bling" factor.
- doesn't make a difference.
- might mean something, but it's not worth the money.
- they make a higher quality ride no doubt.
- worth every cent.
Both 'types' of bikes you mention will get you there. I've got a Asian built steel hardtail, and a US built suspension bike. They're equally fun to ride.

One of my favorite biking memories is shaking the hand of the guy that welded my bike, saying, "Thank you, I love this bike," and having him look me in the eye and say "Thanks!" right back.
 
#11 ·
IndecentExposure said:
This is a great topic.

Boutique bikes are for those that want to be different, even though they are the same as everyone else (Sinister, transition, Turner, etc are all prime examples of the same ole suspension design with a different builder) LAME.

Most of these small companies come and go. Mostly they go. So will your warranty and any tech support. If you have to be Unique, get one. If you want Quality, price, and Warranties, stay with a proven company... there's a reason they're there.
-snicker-

If that is really your belief, then not a big deal to me, but I'll disagree.

As mentioned in another post, not every boutique bike is created equal. Neither are regular production bikes either - even if a sizable minority are made in the same factory.

There are differences between Kona, Turner and Ventana even though they all are supposedly the same design. For price, the Kona is the best 'deal', but if the Turner and the Ventana offer something that the Kona can't then there's all the justification that someone might need, like me.

Please don't get me wrong, the Kona's are decent bikes too, but that doesn't mean that everything is equal. Point of example take a look at the XC race bikes between the three - the geometry is different, the shock stroke is different, and even materials are different, and finally if I wanted to... I could do a custom frame with the V. That doesn't mention the subtle differences in design, and the (maybe not so) subtle differences in fit and implementation.

I had several 'proven' companies for my last few daulies - a Specialized, a Rocky, a Jamis, and a Diamondback. All were good bikes, but none of them really fit my frame correctly. When I bought the boutique brand, it actually fit. That alone was worth the cost of admission. If I would have gotten the boutique/custom frame from the start I would have saved a few hundred bucks, instead of shelling out for a XC bike several times over.

And for the warranty and companies that come and go.... just because a company is larger or been around a while doesn't mean the warranty is worth more than the paper it's written on. Have you actually read some of them? Once you take the bike into the dirt, some of 'em are null and void. Even if the warranty is supposedly good, the company has to still stand up and deliver.

Anyone ever try to warranty a GT after Pacific bought 'em out? Reputable company right? And no-one's ever had a legitimate warranty claim regected by a 'proven' company. Is it better to have a two year warranty that actually gets respected, or a lifetime that a company won't honor?

And as per a 'Proven' company... some of the Boutique builders have come and gone, but so have some 'Proven' companies too. Remember 'Cuda, GT and Mongoose, or how about Bontrager. All of 'em went the 'Proven' route. GT and Goose are back, and fighting to get rid of their dept store stigma.

Klein, and Fisher are now proven brands, and both started as boutique brands. On the other hand Cherry, Ventana, Turner, Intense, and several other boutique brands have been around for a decent amount of time. And I'd be happy to match up their designs, quality against the production brands.

In the future we'll have some new 'proven' companies, some that have left us, and we'll have some boutique builders that have become proven companies. I wouldn't be surprised if Santa Cruz or Titus was able to take that leap.

/rant off.

JmZ
 
#12 ·
Why would u go boutique when a company like Giant can spit out hundreds of bikes a day and therefore halve the production costs. For a 15 year old like me a big company is the only way to go. eg. STP 0 has Pike Forks, sram x7, e13 bash and chain guides ect. for under 2000 australian.
 
#13 ·
tom2304 said:
Why would u go boutique when a company like Giant can spit out hundreds of bikes a day and therefore halve the production costs. For a 15 year old like me a big company is the only way to go. eg. STP 0 has Pike Forks, sram x7, e13 bash and chain guides ect. for under 2000 australian.
if it's your first mountain bike, and money is an issue, then no....i would get the giant, with the nice components...because it'll ride well enough, great for learning skills and learning about what components you like and don't like. then, when you figure out what kind of riding you like, what you like in a bike, and learn more about bikes in general, you can spend the big $$ on exactly what you want.

but why go boutique? for me, it was all about fit, feel of the bike and CS...

just my $.02 :D
 
#14 ·
The only difference is the frame

matteus said:
What do you guys think about the "other" brands of bikes available, not your run of the mill Giant, Trek, Cannondale, GT, etc. your Ventanas, Turner, etc. Are they worth the extra money, or is it just the "prestige" of having one? What do you guys think?

- they're just crap, and overcharging for the "bling" factor.
- doesn't make a difference.
- might mean something, but it's not worth the money.
- they make a higher quality ride no doubt.
- worth every cent.
Boutique bike makers use the same components used by other bike makers.

The only unique thing about a boutique bike is the frame on which those components are mounted.

So, is the boutique frame, worth the extra money?

old dude
 
#15 ·
perttime said:
It is often the distinction between what you need and what you want.

A Volkswagen Golf will get you there... but you might prefer to get there in an Audi A3 (which uses many of the same parts).
Nice analogy, but when you drive a VW Golf and a Audi A3, you feel the differences, and they're not in the logo.

In my opinion, there is a difference between boutique bikes and standard. Okay, maybe there is not necesarily better a boutique bike, but I do feel that there is a difference in workmanship and quality that you need to ride to understand.

Okay, there are a lot of stuff that makes a bike, not just the frame. So, yes, you can get a Ventana X-5, for example, and build it with cheap components, the bike will ride like cr@p.
 
#16 ·
There is nothing a boutique bike can do that a production bike cannot. As far as function you are paying more for the same thing. So you don't really need to spend a lot of money to enjoy cycling.

Worth is relative. To those who can afford it, it may worth every penny. To others, it is ostentatious spending.
 
#17 ·
Hey Matteus,

YES, there is a difference, a VERY difference between mass produced frames versus the boutique frame builders. The bigger guys have to go after "every man," so to speak. On the other hand, for specialty use, the boutique builders can make their bikes more specialized or more specific in use.

I sell some really expensive frames to customers, but also sell some really cool but affordable bikes around $1400 or so.

Before you decide upon turning your back on the boutique guys, my advice is to look at their advertising campaigns. The more they spend, the more they charge. I personally believe that Turner frames cost more because of the advertising dollars spent. Same with Ellsworth. One could argue for days that economics is neither here nor there, but boutique builders aren't about volume to make up for their advertising they are all about image and that drives up the perceived valued, while perceived value drives up the customer cost.

If you really want to get into a bike shop owner's head, give me a call and we'll talk it one on one without the MTBR distractions. - Jared @ www.downshiftcycles.com
 
#18 ·
Boutiques in mass = run of the mill.

Maybe it's my SoCal location but it seems every other bike in the Santa Monica Mountains where I frequent is an SC or Turner. After a while they all "Blur" together.
So if everyone around seems to be on a boutique bike - they are on the common bike.

I just picked up an Ibex Asta Expert X9. I can be sure that there will be few of them compared to the other mass produced boutique bikes. Frame geometry is there. Components and ride are there. And it fits really good. For me, I'm thinking I now have the unusual bike on the trail that others are sure to ask me about.

No one asks about the SC or Turner -cause we all know the answer. <g>

--
Bill
 
#19 ·
rzozaya1969 said:
when you drive a VW Golf and a Audi A3, you feel the differences, and they're not in the logo.
I suppose that is what I meant.

Let's take my example: When I was looking for my first real mountain bike I had a couple of starting points. (1) I was not quite sure what kind of riding I would end up doing. (2) I am not exactly a lightweight. (3) I had a little loose money. I thought that a sturdy HT would be a good idea but did not find one that I liked among locally available mainstream bikes. However, I found a frame that would work for anything from casual XC to light FR. The shop did a non-bling build for me and, amazingly, the bike works!
 
#20 ·
I Wouldn't Put SC In The Boutique List

I can't remember the last time I went on a ride and didn't see a Santa Cruz and I live far, far away from So Cal.

Turner, Titus, Seven, etc either. Maybe back in the day but now they are mainstream juggernauts that crank out thousands of bikes. A bike you can buy from Colorado Cyclist is not boutique.

Boutique is Vanilla, Curtlo, Sycip, MountainGoat, Walt, Thylacine, RickTheWelder to name a few of the hundreds off the top of my head.
 
#22 ·
This is a pretty good debate and one that I've struggled with a fair bit.

When I first got back into biking last year and was getting onto a $800Cdn hardtail, looking at the Intense and Sanata Cruz frames made me gag. I couldn't see any justification for a frame that cost $2,750Cdn or a $5,000 complete bike.

Almost 2 years later, I've moved up to a full suspension bikes by one of the more "boutique-esque" brands of a larger, proven comany (Gary Fisher Cake 2 DLX). My ride costs as much as an Intense 6.6 or SC Nomad frame (the possible future successors to this bike), but for what I do, it is more than adequate. The fit and finish does improve with the more expensive (and boutique) bikes, but unless you ride a lot the difference isn't that big. For some, it is the bling factor (i.e. Escalade vs. Avalanche) and for others it is the more specific design (as compared to the previously mentioned "fit everyone"/"do everything" that the "off the rack" bikes sometimes try to be).

Where I live, there aren't gobs of Intense and SC frames riding around the woods. In fact, I think I've seen a couple SC's and maybe one Intense...sure, it makes them unique. Then again, I've only seen one other Cake on the local trails...so with the little bit of weight-weenie crossed with some little bling-bling bits, I've got a ride that is unique and does everything I ask of it without costing as much. Would I like to get a boutique frame in the future, sure...but it isn't a super high priority.

I'll agree with the general sentiment that is running through the thread. Yes, boutique bikes are a bit more refined and if you ride a lot that can be important. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "proven" brand of bike either...and both can have issues and both can be great. The important thing is to get the bike that does what you want/need it to and fits well without breaking the bank...and then getting out there and riding.
 
#23 ·
Another angle that I consider is that many of the boutique bikes are American made by people that ride the frames they design and build for the most part. I recently took a basic bike maint class at LBS offered by park tool and we took the bottom bracket off of a fairly high end Jamis Dakar ($2000 bike) and there was no grease. They cut corners like this to save say 50 cents a bike which across many bikes adds up. With boutique bikes typically corners are not cut like this.

I think in the end it is all about the same but I prefer to keep my money in America whenever I can and probably could not tell the differance performance wise between either type of frame. Just and expensive piece of mind that not a lot of people can afford.
 
#24 ·
moishlashen said:
Another angle that I consider is that many of the boutique bikes are American made by people that ride the frames they design and build for the most part. I recently took a basic bike maint class at LBS offered by park tool and we took the bottom bracket off of a fairly high end Jamis Dakar ($2000 bike) and there was no grease. They cut corners like this to save say 50 cents a bike which across many bikes adds up. With boutique bikes typically corners are not cut like this.

I think in the end it is all about the same but I prefer to keep my money in America whenever I can and probably could not tell the differance performance wise between either type of frame. Just and expensive piece of mind that not a lot of people can afford.
Here's an interesting fact for you. If you want to "keep your money in America whenever [you] can" then you need to buy a Taiwanese made frame. The fact is that companies which manufacture their frames in Taiwan employ more people in America than companies who make their frames here in the U.S. U.S. made frames come from really, really small companies compared to Taiwanese made frame companies who employ more people.

It comes down to dollars and cents. If you can make frames for cheaper, you can buy more product over the course of the year, which means you can have more models and style to choose from. More product means more people need to manage the operation. Plus, less overhead means the companies can afford more people.

Interesting, huh? - Jared @ www.downshiftcycles.com
 
#25 · (Edited)
That is a good point. I am by no means an expert but just from an outsider looking in I think your point holds to a certain degree. Let's take specialized for example, most if not all of their stuff is made in Taiwan. All of the fabrication money lets say stays in Taiwan because it is the Tawainese worker making the parts-many workers. Since specialized is an American Co (I think) all of the overall profits go to the few people at the top like CEO etc so that money stays in the US. It is sort of the reverse of Toyota where most Toyotas are made in the USA-which means a lot of $20/hr jobs here in the US but the overall profits go to the Japanese CEO etc. I would rather have the thousands of $20/hr factory jobs than a few top level management jobs. Does this make any sense or am I in way over my head?

BTW I am not trying to rip on Taiwan because they do set a good example for mainland China to see capatalism work but let's not forget Taiwan is part of China- a country famous for ignoring all international IP laws and with whom the US has an enormous trade defecit with, ie, they don't buy a lot of our stuff to sort of keep the global economy somewhat balanced.
 
#26 ·
Hey moishlashen,

Your principle is certainly correct, however in the bicycle industry we're not talking about 10,000+ workers for each automotive factory (for hundreds of factories), we're talking about 2,000 workers for maybe 6 factories total between Taiwan and China making pretty much everything we're familiar with. Sure Taiwan and China get the bulk of the labor, but they're not making anything close to $20/hr equivalent.

The number of Taiwanese or Chinese employed really doesn't matter, remember, it's the number of US employees that increases with Asian production.

One sad fact is that many "Made in the USA" frames are only painted here. According to US Federal GOvernment law, only approximately 30% of a product needs to be done ere for it to warrant the "Made in the USA" label legally. Manufacturers like Trek paint their frames here in the USA and determine that to be 30% of the manufacturing process - hence, they are "Made in the USA." Of course, this isn't true of all of their USA-made frames. So is that really employing a lot of Americans? Doubt it. Get a handful of painters and you're good. A bike with all of its components can also be assembled here in the state and the frame will bear the "Made in the USA" sticker, misleading consumers to believe that the frames were manufactured state side, when in fact they were not. Again, still not employing thousands of people in the great nation.

My understanding is that the vast majority of Specialized bikes and frames are actually manufactured in China now, not Taiwan. Their high end $5,700 carbon frames make for a DANG expensive Chinese bike!

So your principle is sound, but its application by degrees doesn't equate, since the offset by the immense gap in numbers doesn't translate. It's just too far out proportion to parallel the numbers of automotive workers to bicycle factory employees.

The only cases in which it makes sense to manufacture here within the USA, is if you're Ventana, Ellsworth, Intense, Chumba Racing, Turner, Litespeed and a few select others. Paying for a mass produced bicycle in the USA is just - well, inefficient and unnecessarily expensive (hint, hint Gary Fisher-Trek, etc.). Notice that I'm not extending this same statement to other products (like cars).

Make sense? - Jared @ www.downshiftcycles.com
 
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