Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner

Boutique bike company expectations

3K views 68 replies 33 participants last post by  milehi 
#1 ·
I had an experience today with a boutique bike brand that left me highly disappointed in them. Obviously, I have my initial opinion on it, but after thinking a bit more, I thought I would see what others' opinions are on the matter.

I just purchased a new frame from a company that allows direct to consumer purchases. I'm swapping parts from an old bike and found out that the derailleur hanger that came with the frame does not work with the Shimano XT 12sp derailleur. I chatted with the company they told me that they have an updated hanger on the site and if I ordered that one, then it will work with XT 12sp and is backwards compatible. However, they told me that the frame they just sold me does not come with the new hanger. OK, so that sucks, I have a bike halfway built that isn't going to work without the updated hanger. I ask if they will send me an updated one. Their response was, "Our policy is not to send them to customers. It's really Shimano that should be sending them out since they created a product that doesn't work with existing parts."

Is it reasonable to expect a new frame to ship with the updated hanger? Shimano XT released 12 months ago. My opinion is that this is a low cost item, but a frame-specific one that is critical for the working of the frame and they should have included the updated hanger. If this had been shortly after release and they didn't have one designed and in general
availability already, I could see them taking this stance, but a year later seems a bit much to me.

For those wondering, I deliberately didn't name the company. If it turns out public opinion is that I'm being an overly presumptive PITA, I didn't want to have this on their rep.
 
See less See more
#4 ·
Is it a boutique company, or just a consumer-direct (or genuinely both?)? The reason I ask is that companies like YT ain't "boutique" makers, that's reserved for companies like Yeti, Pivot, Intense, Ibis, etc. Some of these boutique makers have branched out in recent years, offering consumer-direct purchasing, like Intense, but just because a company is one doesn't necessarily mean they are the other IMO.
 
#5 ·
I'm not sure the exact distinction you are making. If you're drawing the line at whether it's a dirt cheap or direct-only model brand, then it's not one. This is a high-quality brand with direct and dealer model. A frame price is similar to the other brands you've name outside of Yeti charges a premium to most other companies.
 
#10 ·
My take on this is that the manufacturer has a boatload of old mech hangers in stock and getting rid of them by sending the new bikes with them, passing the cost to the new owners instead of shipping the frames with the new ones. They know about the incompatibility because they already have the new hanger, they know that the new owner, in this case the OP, was probably getting either SRAM or Shimano 12s and they didn't care. In my 0.02€ that's a *brown* move.
 
#20 ·
My real belief is that this is probably a kitting issue where the old hangers are already with frames in inventory. Rather than go through the hassle of separating out the old hangers, I would just include a new one when a frame is sold. Customers using SRAM get a spare. As a matter of fact, I'm sure that every Santa Cruz frame I purchased came with a spare hanger.
 
#12 ·
Not sure about the different hanger that is needed for Shimano 12 spd. But I can see that if the stock hanger works on everything but Shimano 12 spd, that the one that works for Shimano 12 spd should be optional and there should be a charge for it. I see everyone banging on Sram, but if a different hanger is needed on your bike, I assume that every bike would need a different hanger, am I wrong? if so, this is the stupidest move by any components maker.
 
#17 ·
Normal hanger. The new design works with all component manufacturers.

I'm surprised they did not just send you one once they were aware that you needed it. To me, it's cheap and it customer service. If it was my company, I would have send one next day air to make you happy. Brands that don't go the extra mile for their customers should be revealed so guys like me don't give them my money.
That would have been how I handled it for one of my customers. However, knowing that it is a potential issue, I would have just included the new hanger in the first place to avoid the issue and marked it as V2. Customer then has a back up hanger if they use SRAM or at not just sitting there unable to build a bike trying to figure out why their components don't work.

I wouldn't expect the company to include the proprietary hanger with all of their frames (because if you use SRAM then you'd just throw away that oddball XT hanger) but it would've been nice to have it as a selection at the same cost when you purchased your frame. Since you bought your bike with a hanger that's compatible with every other derailleur except the one oddball that you want to use then you should just pay up.
Aren't all hangers proprietary? They've always been specific to a frame as far as I know. Smart OEMs reuse their hanger design across their frames, but you're not buying a Specialized hanger for a Trek. If this was a one off hanger that only worked with Shimano 12sp, I could potentially agree with you that it is up to the customer to purchase. In that case, I would expect it to be an option when making a purchase as you suggested and not something a customer has to find out later through an internet search. If that option had existed I would have done that.

In this case, it's not a hanger specific only to Shimano though. They simply updated the hanger so it works with Shimano along with everyone else. And, I did pay up. The time to figure it out and order and ship a new one is way more valuable to me than the $35 in parts and shipping to get a new one.

Mostly, I'm disappointed in the brand's approach on this topic as someone that has spent their career dealing with difficult customer situations. I'll contrast this approach with Smith. A friend has a 4 year old Smith helmet, reaches out asking to buy a pad kit and visor for it since he can't find them anywhere. Smith sent him a coupon to purchase a brand new one at no cost. Personally that is way over the top, but I also guarantee that my friend will never buy a helmet from someone besides Smith again.
 
#15 ·
I wouldn't expect the company to include the proprietary hanger with all of their frames (because if you use SRAM then you'd just throw away that oddball XT hanger) but it would've been nice to have it as a selection at the same cost when you purchased your frame. Since you bought your bike with a hanger that's compatible with every other derailleur except the one oddball that you want to use then you should just pay up.
 
#26 ·
Personally, it would leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth. Just wait until you have a real problem, would be my next thought. All over a derailleur hanger for a new bike. I'd of expected a no questions asked resolution.... "it's in the mail today. sorry for the inconvenience. enjoy your new bike".

Customer service is not equal across all brands.
 
#27 ·
I feel like there’s some information missing here. As far as I can tell, Shimano 12 speed derailleurs bolt right up to any old derailleur hanger. I’ve never heard of needing a special Shimano 12 speed hanger.
 
#29 ·
I feel like there's some information missing here. As far as I can tell, Shimano 12 speed derailleurs bolt right up to any old derailleur hanger. I've never heard of needing a special Shimano 12 speed hanger.
There was an issue with this frame and the original hanger apparently which did not allow you to set the b limit screw correctly. It's clearly an issue the company knew, understood and designed a new hanger to fix the issue, so the problem is real. I did not research beyond this particular frame to know if this happens on other frames from the same brand.

If we removed the fact that it is a hanger and just say that the company had to implement a very low cost (less than $10) change to a critical component to support components that about 50% of their customer base is likely to use, should that running change be considered necessary and included with the product?
 
#31 ·
If you buy NOS, then you bought NOS. The expectations for both seller and buyer are that its new-old-stock. The onus is on the buyer to understand the product may be out of date and not current. The seller is not responsible to make the frame compatible.

If its a new 2020 model and you had the compatibility discussion prior to the sale, then the seller should make it right.

IMO-this does not sound like you are working with a boutique bicycle manufacturer. My experience is limited to 17+ years riding several different Ventana mtb's. There's no way Sherwood and Teresa would let this detail slip.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scottzg
#33 ·
If you buy NOS, then you bought NOS. The expectations for both seller and buyer are that its new-old-stock. The onus is on the buyer to understand the product may be out of date and not current. The seller is not responsible to make the frame compatible.

If its a new 2020 model and you had the compatibility discussion prior to the sale, then the seller should make it right.

IMO-this does not sound like you are working with a boutique bicycle manufacturer. My experience is limited to 17+ years riding several different Ventana mtb's. There's no way Sherwood and Teresa would let this detail slip.
Good point. NOS you get what you get. This isn't NOS. It is a current frame. Something I didn't include was that they don't expect to send the new hanger out with new bikes/frames until this August.
 
#34 ·
The company employees need to read the business book "Give 'em the pickle". It's about a man who frequented a restaurant often and always asked for a pickle on the side which they would give him. After three years of doing this one day a server told him she would have to charge him five cents for the pickle, likely in an attempt to maximize revenue. He vowed to never return to that restaurant again and wrote a letter to management. The premise is that you of course always give them the pickle for free if they ask for it. The man is spending hundreds of dollars on meals throughout the year (or thousands on a bike) and he just wants a free pickle (derailleur hangar). Give 'em the dang pickle!
 
#38 ·
I'm going to have steal "Give 'em the dang pickle!". Classic.

I agree they should've included it, quite obviously imo.
Sounds like they're taking their frustrations with a changing standard out on the consumer of their own product. Good luck with that strategy, I say you just name them.
That was kind of my take as well. They've been good to work with in the past, so I don't want to name them based on one poor interaction over a small item. I more just wanted to hear others' opinion on what customer expectations should be.

I think it's absurd that a 2020 frame won't take Shimano 12-speed without a new hangar.
To be fair to them, it seems like it's just a minor issue with the original hanger that doesn't provide the clearance needed get the b limit set correctly. I do feel like I would own the solution in their place and just provide the new version of the hanger with every bike.
 
#35 ·
I agree they should've included it, quite obviously imo.
Sounds like they're taking their frustrations with a changing standard out on the consumer of their own product. Good luck with that strategy, I say you just name them.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk
 
#37 ·
I am with the OP. I think at the minimum they should have put it in writing that the frame currently ships with an incompatible hanger if using shimano 12sp considering many customers will be building it up with that. It would be minimal effort to throw in that updated hanger with the frame. Even if you run sram you would get an extra hanger.

A great example is santa cruz who not only provides a hanger for two different chainstay positions, they give you an extra of each as well. Each frame ships with 4 hangers total.

Their customer service rep sounds pretty ignorant saying shimano should be the one to send it out. As far as I know shimano bolts right onto most modern frames no issue, if this frame has issues, the company is dumb to not make sure they address that and get that fix out preemptively. This current method will only make shimano guys upset when their bike doesn’t build up correctly and then they have to fork out some extra dollars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#39 ·
I am with the OP. I think at the minimum they should have put it in writing that the frame currently ships with an incompatible hanger if using shimano 12sp considering many customers will be building it up with that. It would be minimal effort to throw in that updated hanger with the frame. Even if you run sram you would get an extra hanger.

A great example is santa cruz who not only provides a hanger for two different chainstay positions, they give you an extra of each as well. Each frame ships with 4 hangers total.

Their customer service rep sounds pretty ignorant saying shimano should be the one to send it out. As far as I know shimano bolts right onto most modern frames no issue, if this frame has issues, the company is dumb to not make sure they address that and get that fix out preemptively. This current method will only make shimano guys upset when their bike doesn't build up correctly and then they have to fork out some extra dollars.
I think SC has nailed it with their approach the business. You never really hear anyone say anything negative about their approach to customers. Not every smaller company can afford to act to quite that high a standard I'm sure, but it's something to aspire to if possible.
 
#47 ·
Transition bikes also designed a new hanger because of the exact same reason. New tech isn't always 100% backward compatible, I'm guessing Shimano did try to make it as compatible as they could, but some odd number of brands did have some incompatibility issues, it happens.
Just don't ship new bikes with the old hanger when you already have a new hanger design that works with the old and the new components.
 
#59 ·
This is just me personally, but drivetrain component compatibility would be one of the very first things I’d discuss, when ordering/purchasing a custom/boutique bike. It’s just as important as things like wheel size, tyre clearance, frame size, geometry, suspension travel etc etc. I think that you’re extremely lucky that the option is actually there, to be able to use what you never stated at the start. Rather than being stuck with something you can’t use. Suck it up, chalk it up to experience. They’re not mind readers.
 
#60 ·
When you called them up they should've sent you the correct hanger. I can understand the company wanting to move old stock and keep costs down, but they knew about this issue and you weren't notified when purchasing the frame. This is not something I would remotely look for like boost spacing. This is a very obscure issue, which I have never heard of before this thread.
 
#61 ·
I dunno man. I have a perception that it's just harder to deal with boutique brands when something goes wrong unless they know you on a first name basis. Not saying my perception is right but I do know that large companies with excess cash have covered me beyond my expectations without me pushing very hard. With boutique companies, I even feel bad about asking because I know they are probably struggling to stay in business. So it's a catch 22. Do I support the little guy and swallow the costs to myself or support the big dudes who don't need my support?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top