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Timberjack vs Karate Monkey

22K views 70 replies 27 participants last post by  hardmtnbiker 
#1 ·
Still waffling on my next frame. Need something that I can use for all of the trails.

Timberjack-
+Lighter
+Cheaper $450 w/ headset
+Comes with a headset
+?Internal brake routing (meh)
+Geometry is spot-on for what I want
-? aluminum, all of my past frames have been steel

KM
+Steel
+Geometry also spot-on
-heavier
-more expensive $600-675
-includes a fork that I don't plan to use but can sell

I think either would work for me but it comes down to steel vs aluminum. AmI really going to notice the difference with 29x2.4 tires and a 120 mm fork?
 
#6 ·
Please believe me when I say, for a variety of personal reasons (hint, she's cute and wears the ring I gave her 15 years ago), that ONE these two frames fit in my budget. buying one, selling it a few months later and buying something else is NOT an option. I've been through this before, several times in the past few years, in fact. I want to feel confident that I made the right choice and that I can ride the next frame for a few years. just trying to minimize the FOMO, which is a big trap for me. I'll probably feel reservation about it one way or the other.

I will say that the Karate Monkey does in fact have a big cult following. I still see a lot of old KMs on the trail. I had a 2013 KM a few years ago and sold it because I foolishly bought a small when I needed a medium. if I could have purchased a medium MDS version a few years ago (I was working at REI and tried to buy just as Surly quietly pulled the rug out from under REI as a dealer), I would probably still be riding it. time will tell if the Timberjack gets that kind of legendary status.

honestly, the main thing that pushes me toward the TJ is the price. headset included and it will be much easier to scrape together the cash to buy a dropper or some wider rims for it. but it's not a Karate Monkey amiright?

FWIW, it am 160 pounds. riding singlespeed with a rigid/ 120mm setup. this is the only bicycle I own, so I can't "just ride one of my other bikes" when I want something different. central Texas does not have a lot of elevation change, but the terrain to the west gets quite hilly. the overall terrain is chunky with lots of ledgy, punchy climbs out of the creek bed trails. very little that could be described as "flowy". I like going out to ride for 4-5 hours when I can and cover 30 miles or so on a good weekend day.
 
#12 ·
FWIW, it am 160 pounds. riding singlespeed with a rigid/ 120mm setup. this is the only bicycle I own, so I can't "just ride one of my other bikes" when I want something different. central Texas does not have a lot of elevation change, but the terrain to the west gets quite hilly. the overall terrain is chunky with lots of ledgy, punchy climbs out of the creek bed trails. very little that could be described as "flowy". I like going out to ride for 4-5 hours when I can and cover 30 miles or so on a good weekend day.
What do you want this new frame to do that your old frame/bike can't? Different geo? Wider tires? Want run a dropper post but your current frame is limited to 27.2?

My only mountain bike is a 2008 Kona Unit, an old school 29er with old school geo. It's got 100/135 QR dropouts and a 1 1/8" head tube. It's got 27.5+ (rear) and 29+ (front) tires, the most current mtb tech on it. I've been wanting to update/upgrade the frame for a while now to something with newer standards (tapered headtube, boost, dropper post friendly). But the cost is holding me back.

I could buy a TJ or KM - both are very tempting, and would be a nice update to a frame like the Unit. But honestly, I've decided to wait it out. The cost to build up a new bike with the features/weight/geo I want is more than I can spend (or justify spending) right now. Especially considering I'd end up with a bike not that different than the Unit. So, I'll save my pennies and build up a Ti TJ (which is, I think, the best compromise between the TJ and KM) when the time is right.
 
#7 ·
I just dont care for aluminum in a HT. For that reason, I'd go Karate Monkey. I also don't care for Salsa's newer lineup. All that to say, I'm bias to Surly.

But, it sounds like total cost is a big factor so buy what you can comfortably afford would be my ultimate suggestion.

There's nothing wrong with the Salsa.

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#8 ·
Hey Mack,

I'm in a relatively similar situation... so, I figure I'll just spit out what's going on in my head.

I want a new hardtail with modern Geo, and a lightweight build. I weigh 155-160 depending on how hard I'm training/whatever. To me I can't get the frame weight out of my head. At around our weight, I think it makes a noticeable difference. I've ridden the Timberjack, and thought the handling was spot on. I haven't ridden one of the new KM's... but I'm sure I would like it. I'm at the point now where I think steel is nice, but won't discount an AL frame as worthless because it's AL.

If I were you I would just buy a Timberjack and be happy that you're getting a lighter bike for less money, and put that extra money in your pocket, or into the bike elsewhere.

The Timberjack won't have a cult following like the KM, or like the El Mariachi did... because it's not steel. That doesn't mean anything though, lol.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Mack,

I understand where you're coming from. Does a shop have those on a discount near you? The reason I ask is I have been looking for a new old stock monkey. I called several shops nearby, with in 100 miles, and they offered me 10 percent off sight unseen.

I've had my aluminum xtc for 8 years and it was my daily until last year. Aluminum is a great material and so is steel. I honestly dont think you could go wrong with either bike. If resell is important then I would choose the monkey.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
#11 · (Edited)
Yeah I couldn't find one in stock but I could get a discount if they ordered it. I think surly is too niche

Edit: I couldn't even find a complete monkey in stock here. I was going to sell my old bike and put that toward a complete bike.
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#15 ·
Budget is always a concern at some point but from where I’m standing it sounds like you want the KM.

If you plan on keeping it for a while, and it’s your only bike, wouldn’t you rather have what you really want? Plus the longer you keep it the more steel has an advantage making the price difference less of an issue.




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#17 ·
I ran 67.5* with a 47mm offset and it was fine. Rode better than anything else I'd ridden as a matter of fact. There's an ass for every seat basically.

Mack, I've ridden aluminum and steel rigid bikes. If I was blind folded, apart from the different geo on each bike, I couldn't tell you the difference between them. That's with the same wheels on both bikes as well.

I can say that the cane creek 10 headset that comes on the salsa is junk. I had one on my Tallboy and it exploded. I also loath internal routing of any sort. I run external droppers on frames that have stealth routing.

The only thing I don't really like about Surly is how the spec their completes. Their Gnot-Boost setup is actually brilliant and I'm a big fan of that dropout system.

YMMV but I'd probably take the Monkey.

FWIW, if I had to have only one mountain bike, it would be rigid vs. anything with suspension.
 
#18 ·
Good question, Ryder. I've never quite wrapped my head around fork rake and trail and all that. The Odis fork that I have has 45mm of offset. I also have a Reba RL from about 2015 that I have used in 100 and 120mm settings but I am not sure of the offset on that.

I have an SQ labs 12 degree sweep bar and a 50mm stem at present. That reigns in the reach quite a bit. My hands are almost even with my steerer tube, which I like. A shorter frame reach frame make the sweet spot happen but I'd be curious to try a 35-40 mm stem too. Unfortunately, when you search for "35mm stem" you find a ton of stems for 35mm handlebars.
 
#19 ·
One more reason to buy a KM- local bike shop ATX Bikes amhas been absolutely amazing. They host events, weekly rides, and support the local high school mtb team. Just waiting until I have a little extra cash from selling another bike.

In case anyone is interested... 52 cm Traitor Crusade with Cowbell bars and Arch rims. SSgravel!
 
#21 · (Edited)
One more reason to buy a KM [...]
Here's another: reading the TJ geo numbers is a PITA! 27.5+ vs 29, 120 vs 130 fork, 42 vs 51 offset, forks are sagged, seat tube isn't straight - makes my head hurt. And some of the numbers are wrong (e.g. fork length/offset). The MY2018 #s look more reliable, but I'm still not convinced the TJ has a shorter reach than your Jabberwocky, esp. since Vassago never published the reach/wb/f-c #s AFIK. You run a geo calculator on the three frames?

Unrelated, but here's something I noticed on some of Salsa's geo pages from recent years. I have no idea what they're talking about:

"Bar stack & reach are measured to the grip area relative to the BB center using an 8mm HS top, 20mm spacers, 60/70/70/80 x 5" stem and 15mm rise bar"
 
#28 ·
Nitrous:
Effective down tube is exactly what it sounds like. think about how effective top tube is measured. Now apply that to the down tube. It is the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the reach and stack measurements. It tells approximately where your hands will end up relative to your feet.

Of course HTA, stem and handlebar dimensions, pedal stack, crank length, etc play a role in fine tuning that, but effective down tube makes comparing two frames a little easier where it counts for handling by removing saddle position from the equation. Trials bikes are often measured this way and I think some BMX companies do it. When I was last into BMX, they were still using actual top tube length, which is stupid because you never really sit down on a BMX bike.

Saddle position is important but I find it to be secondary to reach and stack because all the handling and confidence you get on a mountain bike counts when you're not planted on the seat. For many riders of us, the dropper post males ETT almost useless.
 
#29 ·
I've long thought it'd be nice to measure Reach at the bottom of the HT to remove the HT length variable from things, or maybe measure at some arbitrary but standardized stack height(s) on the steering axis (@ 500mm and 600mm), to better isolate the actual (yet inexplicit) frame reach. But maybe eDT is a simpler and superior solution. Would HT angle muck things up a bit?

Front-center is still an interesting figure. Mack, the TJ and KM both have the taller BBH and shorter CS you seek for that low-speed trials hoppy effect, but also have longer FCs and slacker HT angles. Starts to get tricky how all the #s play out on the trail. Demo would be helpful even if it's just spinning a current KM on some urban obstacles.
 
#30 ·
Good luck finding a "demo" for a low-mid range bike like that! I borrowed a TJ from a local, but he had the cockpit set up very different from how I would (much higher, narrow handlebar) and his fork had NO damper fluid in it. Not a great way to test ride a bike. The aluminum didn't do much for me and he has B+ tires on it. I will say I never ran out of traction!

I am focused on a KM, which is not that expensive but requires nine months of planning, PowerPoint budget proposals, plasma donations, selling my body, begging, and whining to get it past the marriage finance committee.
 
#33 ·
Keep the Jabber. Your current frame is already nicer than either of your two options. Seems to me like you’re tying yourself in knots emotionally and financially for something that’s not a lateral move at all.
 
#34 ·
Keep the Jabber. Your current frame is already nicer than either of your two options. Seems to me like you're tying yourself in knots emotionally and financially for something that's not a lateral move at all.
I agree with Blatant on this one, seems like a lateral move at best.

I'd save a bit longer and look at the Santa Cruz Chameleon, Ventana Wolfram or El Commendante or you can go all out with a Reeb Dikyelous.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Oldhouseman- you make a good point. I have owned several frames over the years and off of them were choices determined mostly by budget. That's still the case. However, the price of something like a Ventana is a hard-and-fast NO due to the cost. I'm kind of stuck there. Need to send time on that "Convincing the significant other" thread.

Sorry to waste everyone's time with this thread. The whole this is irrelevant for me because marriage. I am sure most of you know how that goes. I don't think she would ever recover from the violent fit of laugher she'd get if I showed her the price of a Ventana.

FWIW, I am not looking for a "nicer" frame. I am looking for something better suited to my riding style. Higher BB, shorter chainstays, and blue-collar affordable. If money was not an issue, I don't think I could find a frame that fills me with confidence without going custom. The Jabberwocky would be great if I wanted a 29+ bikepacking bike but that's not useful to me. A custom frame is something that would do it for me but there factually no way in hell I could afford such an extravagant purchase. I've checked every stock frame on the market and the two in this thread, oddly enough, were the only ones with geometry close to what I wanted.
 
#37 ·

Here was a long and maybe too intrusive question in connection with the influence of your mate on your decision, which I simple can' understand, but decided to delete it.


As for the bike: why don't you look for a Kona Unit from model year of 2014-2015? I assume, this would be perfect for you, since I 'suffered' the same sensation with my 2017 Unit as you with the Jabberwocky. After half a year I sold it and found a NOS 2015 Unit, which is faultless, even if there are only minor differences between the two.
 
#36 ·
I bought a Karate Monkey, because I like the idea of steel and how it looks. I considered the Timberjack, but it is just ugly to me. I never rode it. I like a bike to handle like you do. The Karate Monkey keeps things lively without requiring constant rider input. There are times I wish it was a little easier to get off the ground, but that's not truly an issue for a rigid bike. I will say that I much prefer it as a 29er with 2.4 tires. It was just dead with 27.5 plus tires. It's a blast to ride and really fits my style. The only issue I have with it is that it is the purple and not the orange or lemon colors. I like how my bikes look. No apologies.
 
#39 ·
I hear you, man. Early retirement and financial independence (or at least maintaining the 'as less work as possible and as much family/riding time as possible' scheme) is my main priority too. :) Sad thing that sometimes this reqires hard decisions like this one of yours. Although, sometimes, in the long run, paying a bit much results in a much higher level of satisfaction. Get the Surly! :)


I never believed that a Unit would be suitable for me, but it (the 2015's one) turned out to be one of the most beloved ride I have ever had, which is a real surprise for me too.

Good luck for your search! :)
 
#40 ·
Mack, you don't mind switching between a rigid fork and 120mm fork? Is the rigid just for gravel etc.? I found a 120mm fork ate up my reach.

You're probably smart to wait for the KM, but with a 100mm fork, the Unit wouldn't a bad choice. :cool: Maybe a 2013 in 19". Just gotta use the dremel to shorten your chainstay length, and avoid mud.
 
#41 ·
I prefer riding technical, sketchy, rocky singletrack on a rigid fork. however, it slows me down a lot, so I keep it for solo rides and chill conversation-pace rides with friends.

the suspension fork is for group rides when I would drag the whole group down or get left behind (and in the dark this time of year) and when I ride new or especially difficult trails. 100mm of travel is probably enough for that. I have a SSCX bike that I use for urban/ gravel rides, which is considerably lighter and lot more fun than lugging around a 29er. I considered selling it to fund a new frame, but I think I'll regret that.

I have had a few experiences with bikes with short chainstays and I have to say that they are like crack. I just can't get enough! I can hop, manual, and monstertruck my way though stuff in such a way that makes riding so much more damn fun and plowing through with a limousine-length back end that just has all the grace of an ocean liner on rocky trails. I rode a Honzo once and the short CS felt amazing, but the medium Honzo is just too long in reach (I did the math and I would have to run a super short stem backwards on a medium Honzo) when standing and the small would be too cramped when sitting. I strongly doubt I could possibly get the CSL on a Unit under 17" no matter how heavily I modify it, and that's what I am after.

The list of bikes with moderate-reach, short chainstays, and a viable singlespeed setup is a short one. it seems like everything is an upright, long-stem, tiny-reach, looong chainstay XC race machine (looking at you, Chumba) or it's a LLS enduro bro jumping bike. I need something in the middle.
 
#43 ·
mack_turtle how long has it been now? :D


When I was doing all my careful shopping a lot of my choice came down to the build of the complete bike. The TJ was $1000 after discounts with a suspension fork, the KM was $1500 rigid and would have required more adapter-ing for kid seat and trailer.

I feel like it should not be hard to sell the KM fork to bring the prices back to par - perhaps to a TJ owner :D
 
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