Where to get physical measurements of a shock with reservoir?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Where to get physical measurements of a shock with reservoir?

    Any of you knows a way to get the measurements and somehow measure if a specific coil shock would fit my linkage. I'm not talking about eye to eye, I have a standard 7.875x2.0 shock. I'm talking about the lenght of the reservoir, the distance between the top eye and the bottom of the reservoir,...

    I'm looking at getting myself the new Marzocchi Rocco or any of those two competitor if any of them fits my frame (Fox DHX-C or CaneCreek Double Barrel).

    I went to a couple of local bike shops and nobody has these shocks in stock or bikes with a shock that would fit my eye to eye. So I need to order and most shops don't take back a shock so I would like to make sure it will fit before. I don't want to loose a lot of money for nothing. Basically what I'm afraid is that the reservoir will hit the down tube.

    Any suggestions? My current idea is to draw a little diagram with some measurements/angles and try sending that to the various companies hoping one of them will be nice enough to reply. Below is my frame so you have an idea that the space for the reservoir is "limited".

    Thanks.
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  2. #2
    TNC
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    Good luck on getting comprehensive info from the shock manufacturers on your application if they don't list it in their lineup for your bike. I haven't done an exhaustive study on all their sites, but Avalanche is the only one that I've seen for sure that shows excellent diagrams of their shocks with exact measurements...most impressive. You're probably going to have to try and find someone with a shock that you're looking at to make a reasoable assessment on fit. Now, that said, I have a 5th coil, DHX coil, and Fox RC coil. They are much longer i2i than you need, but in reality I believe all of these shocks are the same dimensionally at the piggyback end of the shock. The only thing that changes is the tail, or non-piggyback end, of the shock to be shorter or longer. I can measure these shocks if you give me the very specific locations that you want measured so that we're on the same page.

    From observing the pic of your bike, I think you're going to be able to install most if not all piggyback models. I'm making this speculation from comparing your bike there to other models that have almost identical mounting and configuration designs and allow the use of piggyback shocks.

    I've kept up with your posts on this issue. I think one air shock that you haven't tried that works excellently on very progressive rear suspension designs is the Cane Creek Cloud 9. Those shocks you tried are all relatively small air chambered models. The Cloud 9 has a huge air chamber and is very tuneable. I'm running one on a highly modified '00 Big Hit Enduro with 6" of travel, a progressive rear end design, and it works excellently. The Cloud 9 is a very affordable shock and can be rebuilt at home by the do-it-yourself mechanic. Just a thought.

  3. #3
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    Again, I wouldn't recommend an air shock at this point, since it seems that you want to err on the side of "plush";

    Find someone with a DHX or 5th element (the Rocco is supposed to be dimentionally similer to the 5th element).

    Then take their shock, and bolt it to your bike with the resevior at the bottom.

    If it fits this way, then excellent and you don't really have to worry.

    If you can't fit it this way, then you have to find the same stroke and length 5th element or DHX shock, and bolt it to the bike with the resevior at the top, take the spring off, and compress the shock to see if it makes contact with the downtube. On the DHX coil shock you can remove the blue bottom-out knob for additional clearance.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Then take their shock, and bolt it to your bike with the resevior at the bottom.

    If it fits this way, then excellent and you don't really have to worry.

    If you can't fit it this way, then you have to find the same stroke and length 5th element or DHX shock, and bolt it to the bike with the resevior at the top, take the spring off, and compress the shock to see if it makes contact with the downtube. On the DHX coil shock you can remove the blue bottom-out knob for additional clearance.
    Last year I tried mounting a Manitou 6way upside down and it did not fit. Unfortunately it was also a longer eye to eye so I could not try it reservoir up!

    I've noticed that some Homers have taken the blue knob on the DHX for some clearance on the Turner 5spot. Unfortunately the DHX is currently not my first choice, I would really prefer to try a Rocco. The Avy Chubby would definitely fit the bill with it's very small reservoir.

    Thanks for your suggestions. Nice discussion.

  5. #5
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    Wow, that is a very nice offer TNC, let me take some measurement and draw a little something on the picture of my frame. I will post that later tonight or tomorrow and maybe you can help me with some measurements on your 5th coil (should be almost identical to the Rocco) and your DHX. The Avalanche Chubby will fit for sure but I currently have a slight preference for the Rocco because of the user friendly maintenance.

    I know the Could9 by the way. I already have one on my old Giant NRS. You are right and I'm sure I would improve the feel of my bike for very little money, however for some reason I'm really drawn towards a coil right now. I might get a Cloud9 for my girlfriend though, she has the same frame as myself!

    Thanks much.

    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Good luck on getting comprehensive info from the shock manufacturers on your application if they don't list it in their lineup for your bike. I haven't done an exhaustive study on all their sites, but Avalanche is the only one that I've seen for sure that shows excellent diagrams of their shocks with exact measurements...most impressive. You're probably going to have to try and find someone with a shock that you're looking at to make a reasoable assessment on fit. Now, that said, I have a 5th coil, DHX coil, and Fox RC coil. They are much longer i2i than you need, but in reality I believe all of these shocks are the same dimensionally at the piggyback end of the shock. The only thing that changes is the tail, or non-piggyback end, of the shock to be shorter or longer. I can measure these shocks if you give me the very specific locations that you want measured so that we're on the same page.

    From observing the pic of your bike, I think you're going to be able to install most if not all piggyback models. I'm making this speculation from comparing your bike there to other models that have almost identical mounting and configuration designs and allow the use of piggyback shocks.

    I've kept up with your posts on this issue. I think one air shock that you haven't tried that works excellently on very progressive rear suspension designs is the Cane Creek Cloud 9. Those shocks you tried are all relatively small air chambered models. The Cloud 9 has a huge air chamber and is very tuneable. I'm running one on a highly modified '00 Big Hit Enduro with 6" of travel, a progressive rear end design, and it works excellently. The Cloud 9 is a very affordable shock and can be rebuilt at home by the do-it-yourself mechanic. Just a thought.

  6. #6
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    Just flip the shock.

  7. #7
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    Hey TNC, please do not laugh at my drawing below, I am absolutely terrible with Photoshop, NO SKILLS AT ALL!!! I'll try to explain the measurements I took as best I can and if you can measure your 5th and/or DHX it would be great. Don't worry about precision, I just want to have a gross idea, if it clearly does not fit then I wont take a chance, if it looks tight then it's my risk to take or not.

    On the picture I drew a small red triangle with A being the height from center of the bottom eye to center on the shock where it bottoms. The B, is from the center of the shock at that bottoming height A to the frame tube.

    On my chart, if A is 3/4" then B is 1.5". If A=1" then B=1.75", if A=1.25" then B=2", if A=1.5" then B=2.25".

    What I need to know from you is when your coil shock bottoms, at which height from the bottom eye does the reservoir goes. And, I also need the width from center of the shock to the farthest point of the reservoir (C).

    On my RP3 shock, 3/4" (the first A measurement I took) is about the height at which the shock bottoms so I assumed your coil shock would bottom around the same height and that's why I started measuring at 3/4". Anyway, if it's lower than that then I'm sure it wont fit because I'm sure the reservoir is "bigger" then 1.5" B from center of the shock.

    Let me know if I'm not clear. It's a bit difficult to explain in writing and as you can see I'm not too talented either!
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  8. #8
    TNC
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    OK here's what I got.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    Hey TNC, please do not laugh at my drawing below, I am absolutely terrible with Photoshop, NO SKILLS AT ALL!!! I'll try to explain the measurements I took as best I can and if you can measure your 5th and/or DHX it would be great. Don't worry about precision, I just want to have a gross idea, if it clearly does not fit then I wont take a chance, if it looks tight then it's my risk to take or not.

    On the picture I drew a small red triangle with A being the height from center of the bottom eye to center on the shock where it bottoms. The B, is from the center of the shock at that bottoming height A to the frame tube.

    On my chart, if A is 3/4" then B is 1.5". If A=1" then B=1.75", if A=1.25" then B=2", if A=1.5" then B=2.25".

    What I need to know from you is when your coil shock bottoms, at which height from the bottom eye does the reservoir goes. And, I also need the width from center of the shock to the farthest point of the reservoir (C).

    On my RP3 shock, 3/4" (the first A measurement I took) is about the height at which the shock bottoms so I assumed your coil shock would bottom around the same height and that's why I started measuring at 3/4". Anyway, if it's lower than that then I'm sure it wont fit because I'm sure the reservoir is "bigger" then 1.5" B from center of the shock.

    Let me know if I'm not clear. It's a bit difficult to explain in writing and as you can see I'm not too talented either!
    It doesn't look good for the shock mounted with the piggyback on top. The A measurement for the 5th is 15/16" where the shock bottoms to the lower shock eye. A is 1" on the DHX. The problem is that C on the 5th and the DHX is 2 and 3/8 inches. The piggyback on both shocks appears to hit the downtube under full compression.

    With the shock turned with the piggyback at the bottom, the 5th looks like it will fit because the piggyback slopes away from the shock eye much more quickly and appears to stay within those measurements you listed for A and B. The DHX piggyback doesn't slope as quickly and the Propedal knob is in the way.

    Another measurement you need is the distance from the shock eye center on the piggyback end of the shock to the furthest point on the end of the piggyback...not counting the schrader valve...the 5th is 4.75" and the DHX is 4.5". I do my clearance checking for a new shock a little differently. I pull the shock out of the bike and support the rear end by various means...such as a rope to the saddle. I then mimic the size of the shock that's going to be installed by measuring the distance between the two frame shock eyelets...in your case, 7.875". You know you have a 2" stroke, so the fully compressed shock would measure 5.875" between the eyelets. Put a string through the two eyelets and pull it tight, so that you have the centerline of the shock from which to measure very accurately. Now you can measure to either side of the centerline at any point within that 2" area of shock movement. If you know these critical dimensions of the shock you're considering, then you can check frame and other clearance issues for that shock body and piggyback. This method also takes into account any slight rocking of the shock as it's being compressed or extending, even though there should be very, very little. The method we're trying to use with your pic here involves me trying to use two straight edges and moving up and down a scale of possible points on my shocks to see if they interesect. It kinda involves some visualization on my part, and I already need glasses...LOL!

    If I were you, I'd try the actual centerline method with your shock removed and do measurements as I described within that 2" of shock movement. One thing hard to calculate here is that slope I mentioned...how quickly the piggyback slopes away from its end of the shock body.

    I've been coming back to this and remeasuring everything trying to use your A-B numbers, and it looks like there is contact regardless of how you'd configure the shock. Apparently your bottom shock mount sits fairly low in the frame, and this is causing a problem for the piggyback. And where I thought the shock would fit with the piggyback mounted to the top, these piggybacks come way down under full compression and fall within those numbers you supplied.

    This is weird trying to do this over the computer without having the bike to do measurements, but I'm coming up with contact on the piggyback any way you do it. It seems very clear that a Fox RC would fit with the piggyback toward the top.
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    Last edited by TNC; 11-29-2005 at 10:21 PM. Reason: add text and pic

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    It doesn't look good for the shock mounted with the piggyback on top. The A measurement for the 5th is 15/16" where the shock bottoms to the lower shock eye. A is 1" on the DHX. The problem is that C on the 5th and the DHX is 2 and 3/8 inches. The piggyback on both shocks appears to hit the downtube under full compression.

    With the shock turned with the piggyback at the bottom, the 5th looks like it will fit because the piggyback slopes away from the shock eye much more quickly and appears to stay within those measurements you listed for A and B. The DHX piggyback doesn't slope as quickly and the Propedal knob is in the way.

    Another measurement you need is the distance from the shock eye center on the piggyback end of the shock to the furthest point on the end of the piggyback...not counting the schrader valve...the 5th is 4.75" and the DHX is 4.5". I do my clearance checking for a new shock a little differently. I pull the shock out of the bike and support the rear end by various means...such as a rope to the saddle. I then mimic the size of the shock that's going to be installed by measuring the distance between the two frame shock eyelets...in your case, 7.875". You know you have a 2" stroke, so the fully compressed shock would measure 5.875" between the eyelets. Put a string through the two eyelets and pull it tight, so that you have the centerline of the shock from which to measure very accurately. Now you can measure to either side of the centerline at any point within that 2" area of shock movement. If you know these critical dimensions of the shock you're considering, then you can check frame and other clearance issues for that shock body and piggyback. This method also takes into account any slight rocking of the shock as it's being compressed or extending, even though there should be very, very little. The method we're trying to use with your pic here involves me trying to use two straight edges and moving up and down a scale of possible points on my shocks to see if they interesect. It kinda involves some visualization on my part, and I already need glasses...LOL!

    If I were you, I'd try the actual centerline method with your shock removed and do measurements as I described within that 2" of shock movement. One thing hard to calculate here is that slope I mentioned...how quickly the piggyback slopes away from its end of the shock body.

    I've been coming back to this and remeasuring everything trying to use your A-B numbers, and it looks like there is contact regardless of how you'd configure the shock. Apparently your bottom shock mount sits fairly low in the frame, and this is causing a problem for the piggyback. And where I thought the shock would fit with the piggyback mounted to the top, these piggybacks come way down under full compression and fall within those numbers you supplied.

    This is weird trying to do this over the computer without having the bike to do measurements, but I'm coming up with contact on the piggyback any way you do it. It seems very clear that a Fox RC would fit with the piggyback toward the top.

    TNC, you are a real gentlemen, many thanks.

    Well I think the 5th is almost exactly like the Swinger 4way and unfortunately, I tried that one and it does not fit on my frame with the reservoir at the bottom. The slope is just a tiny bit not sloped enough so with the reservoir assembly sitting right on my down tube, the top eye is just a bit too much towards the rear of the frame preventing the rocker bolt from entering it's hole. On top of it, the Rocco has a knob similar to the DHX that would be in the way. So much for that thought.

    With the reservoir at the top, you say that C is equal to 2 and 3/8 inches, well that pretty much clears it, we don't need to look any further, the bottom distance to the eye (my A) would need to be more than 1.5 inches. It clearly does not fit.

    So the only possibility I see now is the DHX without the bottom out adjustment. Have you even taken it out, is it easy to take out? I will try your method of measuring a little later and post more measurement.

    Bottom line it is starting to look like I'll be left with only the Avalanche Chubby as an option for coil shocks on that frame. Or I get a Cloud9, or a new frame! That's probably why Devinci never installed a piggy back shock on that frame.

    Thanks again, I really appreciate your effort and time to help me on this.

  10. #10

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    Wait, what are we thinking?

    Just get a 5th or a Swinger with a remote resovoir, for goodness sakes!

    That will solve your fit issues. Why I did not think of this earlier, I have no idea.

  11. #11
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    That Avy Chubby looks like a pretty neat shock, and I don't think you'd have to "settle" too much by getting one of those. In fact I think your design and suspension rate would probably soften up to a more desireable level. On that DHX bottomout removal that you're mentioning, that's just a collar that gets removed. The schrader valve and bottom-out chamber adjuster are actually still there and fully functional. I don't think removal of that adjuster collar gives enough clearance for your application. Frankly the more I think about your bike and what you're trying to accomplish on your suspension action, that Avy may wind up being a pretty nice setup if it fits.

  12. #12
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    Thanks Damion but no platform shock for me. The only one I will consider is a DHX because I can have it tweaked by Push.

    Hey TNC, just for the fun of it I took some more measurement using your trick. So I installed a string between the eyes in place of the shock. Since you told me the reservoir is about 2 and 3/8 inches (B on my new chart) away from the center of the shock, I checked at which spot it would hit the down tube and it was at 2.25" from the bottom eye (A on my new chart) and you say the shock compresses to about 15/16" so we are quite far from making it. What is funny though is that with the linkage compressed down to 5.875", the distance from the top eye to the downtube at 2 and 3/8" from center (C on my new chart), is 4 and 7/8 inches which is more then the 4.5" you told me the DHX was. Do you make something out of this?

    The Avy is an interesting option but it let's say if I had a choice, I would have greatly prefered a user maintainable Rocco or at least a Push maintainable DHX!
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  13. #13
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    In your pic there, C should be a 90 degree angle to B. That would shorten C. But I just thought of something, so lets throw another curve into this. I'm not sure what a 7.875 X 2.0 DHX looks like as compared to a 7.875 X 2.25 DHX. What I'm saying is that a 7.875 X 2.25 model lets the shock body go all the way to the bumper at the bottom shock eyelet. Where does a 7.875 X 2.0 take up that unused portion of the shock travel while maintaining a 7.875 shock body length? Do you see what I'm thinking here? The piggyback and upper shock body may not move down as far as my shocks do.

    Also recalculate a measurement here to correct something using your last pic as a reference. The DHX is actually 1" at A (the 5th was 15/16"). Now add 3/8" to A...that's 1 & 3/8" from the bottom eyelet. That 3/8" represents the amount of space between the lowest part of the shock body that strikes and compresses the bumper, and the end of the piggyback that faces the bottom of the shock. Look at my pic above on the DHX, and you'll see what I'm talking about. This may be a little easier to measure as a check to your current measurements. What I'm saying is that you should go up the string on A a distance of 1 & 3/8", and then go 90 degrees to the front of your downtube and measure that distance. If that distance is more than 2 & 3/8", you may have a chance of a fit. But looking at your initial computations from your other post and pic, it doesn't look like there's enough clearance.

    I'd still like to know how a 7.875 X 2.0 DHX is built as far as dimensions go at the bottom shock eyelet area.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    In your pic there, C should be a 90 degree angle to B. That would shorten C. But I just thought of something, so lets throw another curve into this. I'm not sure what a 7.875 X 2.0 DHX looks like as compared to a 7.875 X 2.25 DHX. What I'm saying is that a 7.875 X 2.25 model lets the shock body go all the way to the bumper at the bottom shock eyelet. Where does a 7.875 X 2.0 take up that unused portion of the shock travel while maintaining a 7.875 shock body length? Do you see what I'm thinking here? The piggyback and upper shock body may not move down as far as my shocks do.

    I'd still like to know how a 7.875 X 2.0 DHX is built as far as dimensions go at the bottom shock eyelet area.
    Hum, interesting. If I had to bet on something I would say the shock goes down as much but it's the "frame" of the shock that is longer. So the pieces of metal at both end would be longer, the shock body the same and the shaft just long enough to go in the body for 2.0 inches. If that is the case, it might be positive for me. Hopefully someone with a DHX 7.875x2.0 will chime in!

    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Also recalculate a measurement here to correct something using your last pic as a reference. The DHX is actually 1" at A (the 5th was 15/16"). Now add 3/8" to A...that's 1 & 3/8" from the bottom eyelet. That 3/8" represents the amount of space between the lowest part of the shock body that strikes and compresses the bumper, and the end of the piggyback that faces the bottom of the shock. Look at my pic above on the DHX, and you'll see what I'm talking about. This may be a little easier to measure as a check to your current measurements. What I'm saying is that you should go up the string on A a distance of 1 & 3/8", and then go 90 degrees to the front of your downtube and measure that distance. If that distance is more than 2 & 3/8", you may have a chance of a fit. But looking at your initial computations from your other post and pic, it doesn't look like there's enough clearance.
    My B has always been taken at 90 degrees from A. So I've measured again with the string and if A is 1 & 3/8" then B is 2 & 1/4". It's close, quite close. Probably with the bottom out adjuster ring taken out it would fit. I'm not sure about the air valve though. Can you check how far is the air valve from center of the shock?

    I checked out the Avy and realized that it is quite expensive. Basically to have it the same weight as a DHX you have to get a TI spring and it sells for $780! That's a lot of money and I'm not sure I would spend it, I'd prefer putting a bit more for a completely new frame instead.

  15. #15
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    Schrader valve.

    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    Hum, interesting. If I had to bet on something I would say the shock goes down as much but it's the "frame" of the shock that is longer. So the pieces of metal at both end would be longer, the shock body the same and the shaft just long enough to go in the body for 2.0 inches. If that is the case, it might be positive for me. Hopefully someone with a DHX 7.875x2.0 will chime in!



    My B has always been taken at 90 degrees from A. So I've measured again with the string and if A is 1 & 3/8" then B is 2 & 1/4". It's close, quite close. Probably with the bottom out adjuster ring taken out it would fit. I'm not sure about the air valve though. Can you check how far is the air valve from center of the shock?

    I checked out the Avy and realized that it is quite expensive. Basically to have it the same weight as a DHX you have to get a TI spring and it sells for $780! That's a lot of money and I'm not sure I would spend it, I'd prefer putting a bit more for a completely new frame instead.
    The center of the schrader valve is 1.75" from the centerline of the shock. I also found out that the schrader on the newer DHX models, coil and air, have a recessed schrader valve which helps in many cases.

  16. #16
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    Well then let's say there is a very high probability that by taking the valve cap and the bottom out adjustment cap the DHX would fit my frame. It's probably a bit tight but should fit.

    So I'm going to think about it and take a decision. The Rocco and Double Barrel are out for sure, they wont fit. The DHX-C has a small risk on fit but I should be satisfied with performance. The Could9 will fit for sure, is cheap but will I be satisfied with performance.

    I'd say for now I lean on the Cloud9 side because it is risk free and unless it bobs like mad I could always keep it as a spare shock.

    Thanks very much for all your help TNC, really appreciated.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    The center of the schrader valve is 1.75" from the centerline of the shock. I also found out that the schrader on the newer DHX models, coil and air, have a recessed schrader valve which helps in many cases.

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