What happened to Split Pivot suspension bikes?- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    211

    What happened to Split Pivot suspension bikes?

    A few years ago Dave Weagle started talking about his Split Pivot suspension design.
    I was wonder what ever happened to this, even split pivot.com seems dated with this verbage: "Split Pivot will be available Worldwide in late 2007 and early 2008". Did his DW link just make this obsolete? It sounded like such a good idea. Anybody got any current 2009 info on this?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,666
    Isn't the split pivot on the Trek line of suspension bikes?

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,029
    Quote Originally Posted by smithrider
    Isn't the split pivot on the Trek line of suspension bikes?

    No....

    IIRC, last time DW said/posted something about this, he was still in legal negotiations/talks with trek.

    Patent or no, little guys do not stand much of a chance preventing large corporations from infingment.

  4. #4
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    32,548
    Quote Originally Posted by pisgahrider
    A few years ago Dave Weagle started talking about his Split Pivot suspension design.
    I was wonder what ever happened to this, even split pivot.com seems dated with this verbage: "Split Pivot will be available Worldwide in late 2007 and early 2008". Did his DW link just make this obsolete? It sounded like such a good idea. Anybody got any current 2009 info on this?
    Trek is using a "split" rear pivot on some bikes, they are doing this by mounting the shock to the linkage and the chainstay, it's what's known as a "floating" shock mount, supposedly they did this to get around the DW-split pivot design. It's the same rear-pivot arrangement. Trek may have exploited an area that DW left open (shock actuation), or maybe the lawyers will side with DW. We have to wait and see I guess.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    117
    Been wondering about this one too. Any updates?
    I got my Fuel EX-8, but haven't seen anything with DW's implementation (Split-Pivot) out yet.
    Mainly interested in details, does it use standard hubs? I like how on my Fuel, once you take the skewer out, the wheel just drops down like on a regular bike, while on the split pivot, it looks like the dropout is a fully closed hole, and the skewer is thicker. Also I am seeing on my Trek, the seatstays are both inside, while chainstays are outside, while on the Split-Pivot, they are asymmetrical.
    I don't want to get into the patentese and legalese too much, just very curios about the actual implementation differences.
    Last edited by senseamp; 05-29-2009 at 02:18 PM.

  6. #6
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    32,548
    Quote Originally Posted by senseamp
    Been wondering about this one too. Any updates?
    I got my Fuel EX-8, but haven't seen anything with DW's implementation (Split-Pivot) out yet.
    What about the Remedy and Session 88?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  7. #7
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,764
    I thought Evil Bikes was coming out soon with a new DW designed suspension using the "split-pivot".

  8. #8

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    124
    I am pretty sure Trek is using an iteration of split pivot on the Fuel Ex 7+. Wikipedia is certainly doesn't have the last word on this stuff, but this article is interesting and may be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...on#Split_Pivot

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,829
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_
    I am pretty sure Trek is using an iteration of split pivot on the Fuel Ex 7+. Wikipedia is certainly doesn't have the last word on this stuff, but this article is interesting and may be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...on#Split_Pivot

    I doubt it, I have noticed that when TREK talks about the ABP, they mention the idea has been around for years - ie., trying to invalidate any of dw claims.

  10. #10

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    124
    Vespasianus, it sounds like Trek is being defensive because it IS just like Split Pivot.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,829
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_
    Vespasianus, it sounds like Trek is being defensive because it IS just like Split Pivot.

    I think you are right and I think they are trying to get out of paying!

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus
    I think you are right and I think they are trying to get out of paying!
    Different matter but just like Giant, Felt, etc.

    A patent is only as good as the amount of money you are wiling to spend to protect it. Complexity vs. simplicity is also a factor. Think Croc's vs. DW Link.

    Bigger entities will often go for it if they can come up with a historical argument or technical/design solution that will allow them to drag it out long enough that they bleed the other party dry.

    When you get several large entities violating your patent at the same time it becomes virtually impossible to protect.

  13. #13
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,879
    As I recall DW originally argued his split-pivot was different in its execution to Treks, and that both were developed independantly of one another (meaning it wasn't one stealing the other's idea). Trek has a valid US patent in any case for their ABP linkage so if DW wants them to pay royalties, he's gonna have to pay for some good lawyers to overturn trek's patent.

    As to the idea being around for years, it has actually... there were bikes from taiwanese frame makers available with the same sort of pivot arrangement seen at Interbike and the Taipei trade shows in the early to mid-90s. Of course they didn't do them for any braking advantage just to try EVERY damned linkage arrangement possible to try and garner some sales. You used to see some REALLY strange contraptions come out of taiwan factories and small european design firms at the tradeshows. I still remember a bike that used a round piece of carbon-fiber used as a spring for a full suspension frame. No shock otherwise, just this chunk of CF that would compress as the swingarm moved.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  14. #14
    squish is good
    Reputation: Clutchman83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    4,933
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    As I recall DW originally argued his split-pivot was different in its execution to Treks, and that both were developed independantly of one another (meaning it wasn't one stealing the other's idea). Trek has a valid US patent in any case for their ABP linkage so if DW wants them to pay royalties, he's gonna have to pay for some good lawyers to overturn trek's patent.
    This was my impression as well. I know DW has come out as saying that his system was different than Treks. I know his DW link isn't really a standard design that he just applies, it's more of a custom system that he engineers for whatever a company needs. I think he was developing split pivot as an easy system that he could license to a company without having to completely refine. DW link setups take years for him to engineer and refine before they come in to production, split pivot could easily be licensed and out within a year of a company deciding they wanted to pick it up. I'm not sure why we haven't see it, I don't even know what the patent status of his system is, I know as has been said already that Trek has a patent for their design.
    Bike good, work bad.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    117
    Maybe someone can explain to me how either DW or Trek can legitimately claim the idea of a concentric axle/pivot if there is prior art (patent) going back to 1890 that clearly demonstrates a link concentric to rear axle.


  16. #16
    SLX
    SLX is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    657
    Quote Originally Posted by senseamp
    Maybe someone can explain to me how either DW or Trek can legitimately claim the idea of a concentric axle/pivot if there is prior art (patent) going back to 1890 that clearly demonstrates a link concentric to rear axle
    Probably because the guy is dead.
    Leave no bolt untuned!

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,544
    Quote Originally Posted by senseamp
    Maybe someone can explain to me how either DW or Trek can legitimately claim the idea of a concentric axle/pivot if there is prior art (patent) going back to 1890 that clearly demonstrates a link concentric to rear axle.

    Sorry, I'm at a loss too.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  18. #18
    High Alpine Adventure
    Reputation: DaGoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,828

    And then there was Orbea...

    Seems the 2012 Occam may be a more better Split Pivot...I like how they made it adaptable to 142/135 and the main pivot design looks pretty solid. I'm thinking a Lefty B6'er on a carbon frame may get ya down under 25lbs for a nice climbing high altitude romper.

    First Look! 2012 Orbea Occam – Completely Redesigned 120mm Trail Bike - Bike Rumor
    Dug-Da-Goat

    Something changes at 12,000'
    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

    Building your trails at FooMTB

  19. #19
    staike
    Reputation: staikeinthahood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    217
    Devinci? Lol.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    36

    What about this suspension design

    Unsure of how it really works and changes the ride even after reading the description
    www DOT corratec DOT de/en/technologies/2circle

    cant post links sorry

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    36
    actually have looking deeper it looks like just a modified horst but i may be wrong

  22. #22
    High Alpine Adventure
    Reputation: DaGoat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,828

    Corratec Digression

    Well this is veering a bit from the Split Pivot thread content, but what the heck, this thread has been dead for a while so let's have at it. Orbea aside, I like Corratec's "Outside the Box Engineering" approach.

    I did look at them a year or so ago and I too thought the 2Circle suspension design was pretty cool. It is a "single pivot faux bar" design... the thing that is interesting about it is they don't keep the shock body fixed relative to the actuation of the piston. So this gives them the ability to tune the dampening curve... neat stuff.

    So now they have this new 2Circle approach. They have taken this whole "shifting shock body" concept and applied it to a Horst Design (I believe you are right on that). Obviously, their engineering team has found some advantages to that approach (and it might even be enough to get around the FSR Patent). More than likely the whole separation of braking and pedal forces from the suspension thang. Still I wonder how laterally stiff the new design is relative to the old. Looks like it could be a bit flexier.

    So, who here has ridden a Corratec and what's it like? I don't believe they're available in the US. I know they are a German Company that has their designs manufacturered in China/Tawain. Anyone have any other input?

    And thanks for the digression!
    Last edited by DaGoat; 10-21-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    Dug-Da-Goat

    Something changes at 12,000'
    ...so welcome to the Odyssey!

    Building your trails at FooMTB

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.