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  1. #1
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    Vorsprung Smashpot Coil Conversion

    So, Vorsprung have an upcoming coil conversion for forks and I thought it would be good to get a thread going.
    One thing I noticed they are doing that Push are not is supporting travel up to 180mm. I have a brand new 36 on the way and will be getting a smashpot when they come out, I've heard towards the end of the year.

    Spring looks like it runs the entire length of the fork, is there an advantage doing this way?

    More details here;

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/09/10/cra...hangover-rack/
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    If you click through to the article, be sure to scroll down and read the comment and Vorsprung’s detailed and frankly epic reply.

  3. #3
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    Whoops, fat fingers = double post! See below.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Rabbit View Post
    So, Vorsprung have an upcoming coil conversion for forks and I thought it would be good to get a thread going.
    One thing I noticed they are doing that Push are not is supporting travel up to 180mm. I have a brand new 36 on the way and will be getting a smashpot when they come out, I've heard towards the end of the year.

    Spring looks like it runs the entire length of the fork, is there an advantage doing this way?

    More details here;

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/09/10/cra...hangover-rack/
    We run a longer spring for a few reasons:

    1. It lets us get 170mm and 180mm travel variants. Modern singlecrown forks run quite short stanchions relative to their travel, fitting a coil in there is actually surprisingly difficult and there is a distinct ceiling on both travel and available spring rate for coils within those confines. It seems self-evident that riders running the longest travel bikes are the ones most inclined to prioritise the bump-eating aspects of suspension performance over the lightest possible weight, so cutting out the longest travel variants didn't make much sense to us.

    2. Running a cartridge-style system where the topout assembly is housed inside the main spring allows us to make a universal kit that can easily be installed in different forks and/or at different travels. Different forks only require different top caps (and foot studs if changing brands, the RS and Fox ones are different) but everything else is the same, including the springs. This means you can pull the cartridge out of one fork and install it in a different one, at a different travel if need be (changing travel is done with spacers provided in the kit, no new parts), at a minimum of cost.

    There's a few other logistical aspects (particularly relevant to shops and suspension workshops actually) that this design addresses as well - it means shops can stock the kits at very low risk that they'll end up with expensive parts that never happen to fit their customer's particular fork, because the most expensive bits fit everything.

    Also there are a couple of minor errors in that Bikerumor article for anyone who cares - only one EWS racer so far was actually running the Smashpot, although there were a number of high profile riders on Luftkappes through 2017 and 18. Secondly, the kit is actually 130-180mm adjustable (not 140-180).

    There's a bit more going on with these kits that we haven't revealed yet, full info including pricing and release date will be forthcoming once they're ready to go. Feel free to email with any questions in the meantime.

    Steve
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  5. #5
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    Can you please give some more information about the "progressive engagement hydraulic anti-bottom out"? How does it work? Is it adjustable on the fly? How noisy is the coil?

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    I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel very similar to a properly functioning air fork.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel very similar to a properly functioning air fork.
    You have to try one. The reduction in stiction is yuuge. Especially in cooler weather. And no funky spring rate at the start of the travel, just buttery smooth linear predictable travel. Not to mention that the spring rate remains the same at all temperatures.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel very similar to a properly functioning air fork.
    A good air spring works very well overall. Sounds like you've never ridden a coil system though? Try one and judge for yourself. Coil spring systems have advantages and disadvantages - the spring rate is completely linear (advantage in the first 1/3 of the stroke for compliance and the middle 1/3 for mid-stroke support, disadvantage at the end where higher force is beneficial, hence the anti-bottoming system), friction is zero vs "low enough" in air springs, they are completely temperature insensitive, they're considerably heavier, they don't get stickier between services, they have distinct spring increments instead of being infinitely adjustable, you can run a lot more lubricant in the lowers, etc.

    Horses for courses. We are certainly not abandoning air springs, but there's a certain contingent of people who just want their bikes to eat bumps as well as possible with minimum fuss even if it's a bit heavier. Those are the people who'll want this kit. For others, the Luftkappe might serve you better.
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  9. #9
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    Super genius.. Another take on the coil that looks very well thought out. Johnshonda, even the latest and greatest air springs don't compare to the feel of a coil. I've been on the push coil a year and rode the 2019 36 with the air spring for a few weeks to see if it was as good as they say. It just can't match the suppleness and consistent feel of a coil. I've already gone back to coil since. While the air has gotten better it's still not really "coil like" as they claim with each new fork model year release. It may seem like it until you actually ride a coil. Kudos Vorsprung, thanks for the continued innovation.

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    SteveVS - How old of a fork do you guys make this kit for? I have a 2010 Fox 36 that I would love a coil for. I'm not in any position to buy a new bike anytime soon, but I can foot the bill for a coil kit. I'm still riding a 26" Knolly Chilcotin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel very similar to a properly functioning air fork.
    Sounds like you've never ridden a properly setup coil fork. They beat air springs everywhere.

    Air springs with three chambers (negative and two positive) do a very good job. But there is absolutely nothing that behaves and feels like a coil spring.

    We're looking forward to delivery of these. They fill a big gap in the market.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    SteveVS - How old of a fork do you guys make this kit for? I have a 2010 Fox 36 that I would love a coil for. I'm not in any position to buy a new bike anytime soon, but I can foot the bill for a coil kit. I'm still riding a 26" Knolly Chilcotin.
    At the moment, back to 2015 for the 36. The difference between a kit to fit the 2015 and a 2010 is just a top cap though due to the modular design, so hardly unreasonable to make something for that.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimarin View Post
    Super genius.. Another take on the coil that looks very well thought out. Johnshonda, even the latest and greatest air springs don't compare to the feel of a coil. I've been on the push coil a year and rode the 2019 36 with the air spring for a few weeks to see if it was as good as they say. It just can't match the suppleness and consistent feel of a coil. I've already gone back to coil since. While the air has gotten better it's still not really "coil like" as they claim with each new fork model year release. It may seem like it until you actually ride a coil. Kudos Vorsprung, thanks for the continued innovation.
    Thanks for the kind words. Credit where credit is due though - the speed sensitive HBO system was pioneered by Jeremy Wilkey at MX-Tech several years ago, we've adapted that concept for MTB and made it externally adjustable to account for the proportionally wider weight range of MTBs.
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  14. #14
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    I'll be converting my 36 to coil over the winter. Will definitely have to give this kit a hard look vs Push in execution, price & weight.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Thanks for all the feedback on the coil vs. air, as you can tell I have zero experience with a coil fork. Makes sense to me and I do notice a difference in colder temps. Hmmmm…..already have an Avy cart in the pike, but now it sounds like I need to think about coil.

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    Is there any inheriant benefit to being coil or air on both ends of the bike?

    (front/rear)
    air/coil vs coil/coil vs coil/air?

    Recently switched to coil on the rear and some types of features just feel really poor now but I haven't been able to tune it out with damper adjustments. It feels like under moderate loads, the rear is too deep in it's travel and the weight balance front to rear is off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Is there any inheriant benefit to being coil or air on both ends of the bike?

    (front/rear)
    air/coil vs coil/coil vs coil/air?
    I've got all three options on bikes here. Currently running air front and coil rear on my most used bike. It depends on a hundred factors but generally you can get them to balance well even with different springs at each end.

    My preference is coil/coil. Advantages of air are lighter weight and easy spring rate adjustments.
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    would be nice to have a coil option for the mattoc to go with my coil shock.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbmaddux View Post
    If you click through to the article, be sure to scroll down and read the comment and Vorsprung’s detailed and frankly epic reply.
    Just read it, epic indeed.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    would be nice to have a coil option for the mattoc to go with my coil shock.
    Not yet unfortunately. I've already checked with Steve and the Mattoc stanchion ID is a shade too small.
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  21. #21
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    Hi Steve. Would your coil conversion play nicely with my pre-existing Avalanche damping cartridge? Maybe that's a question for Craig at Avy?

    Would you be able to give a rough estimate on availability? Like, before next Spring?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Captured spring...does this mean we can go back to air after installation if we want vs the PUSH system being a one and done conversion?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by VelkePivo View Post
    Hi Steve. Would your coil conversion play nicely with my pre-existing Avalanche damping cartridge? Maybe that's a question for Craig at Avy?

    Would you be able to give a rough estimate on availability? Like, before next Spring?

    Thanks in advance.
    No reason why it wouldn't work with your Avalanche cartridge - might want to play around a little with reducing oil volume on the damper side since it's no longer necessary to use that for bottoming control, but that's the extent of the concerns. Definitely available well before spring.

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmkid85 View Post
    Captured spring...does this mean we can go back to air after installation if we want vs the PUSH system being a one and done conversion?
    We can't guarantee that would be possible - the spring has a certain amount of clearance and the cartridge has a certain amount of flex (as does the fork chassis) so some amount of spring rub is inevitable, meaning there is always the possibility of scoring the stanchion ID. The guide reduces spring contact with the stanchion, but doesn't guarantee that contact would be eliminated.

    With that said, various coil-sprung forks we've inspected have shown no real visible marking on the stanchions from the coil, so it may be possible to go back to air in many cases, but we certainly wouldn't be able to guarantee that across the board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    No reason why it wouldn't work with your Avalanche cartridge - might want to play around a little with reducing oil volume on the damper side since it's no longer necessary to use that for bottoming control, but that's the extent of the concerns. Definitely available well before spring.
    Great. Thanks for the quick reply. Looking forward to the Smashpot being available. HATE my Pikes.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole View Post
    You have to try one. The reduction in stiction is yuuge. Especially in cooler weather. And no funky spring rate at the start of the travel, just buttery smooth linear predictable travel. Not to mention that the spring rate remains the same at all temperatures.
    Not to mention the nostalgia factor for the old Marzocchi forks.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    Will the smashpot be available for 26 pikes from 2014?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobilenemo View Post
    Will the smashpot be available for 26 pikes from 2014?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not yet confirmed, but quite likely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Not to mention the nostalgia factor for the old Marzocchi forks.
    If remembering how good a fork can actually be is nostalgia, then count me as a sentimental old lady.

    My first MZ RC3 fork was a revelation. I couldn't believe how good it was. Since then I've heard a lot about how far air suspension has advanced, but I have a 2015 Pike with an Avy cartridge and I think it's scandalous how bad it is. It's OK on slow hits but on anything like a fast square edged hit it's horrendous. I've tried every setting I could after countless hours of internet research and the only thing that helped a bit was getting a new debonair air spring. Better, but still crap. Maybe I just got a lemon, but in the course of my research I sure read a lot of people hating theirs, too.

    I guess if you ride on smooth or loamy trails the Pike could be OK.

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    And i can't help but notice how each year the new air suspension products are touted as getting closer to coil in feel. That tells me that claims from, say, 5 years ago about how smooth the air suspension was, was just marketing bullshit. Probably still bullshit today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Not yet unfortunately. I've already checked with Steve and the Mattoc stanchion ID is a shade too small.
    With my Avy cartridge i did 2 less clicks of LSC since the mid travel support is much better with a coil.

  31. #31
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    I just want to add that I've had an Avalanche Chubie, an Avy cartridge in my MZ 44 RC3 Ti and have an Avy cartridge in my MZ 380and Pike. Avy stuff is great. I'm in no way faulting Avalanche for how bad my Pike feels (to me).

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    Is it possible to convert a 170mm Fox 36 to 180mm with this kit?

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    I thought I wanted a coil fork until I installed a Luftkappe. This seems like a very very well thought out kit though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VelkePivo View Post
    And i can't help but notice how each year the new air suspension products are touted as getting closer to coil in feel. That tells me that claims from, say, 5 years ago about how smooth the air suspension was, was just marketing bullshit. Probably still bullshit today.
    It's still BS today....that's why you have all these people coming out with aftermarket kits to fix your brand new expensive fork.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    No reason why it wouldn't work with your Avalanche cartridge - might want to play around a little with reducing oil volume on the damper side since it's no longer necessary to use that for bottoming control, but that's the extent of the concerns. Definitely available well before spring.



    We can't guarantee that would be possible - the spring has a certain amount of clearance and the cartridge has a certain amount of flex (as does the fork chassis) so some amount of spring rub is inevitable, meaning there is always the possibility of scoring the stanchion ID. The guide reduces spring contact with the stanchion, but doesn't guarantee that contact would be eliminated.

    With that said, various coil-sprung forks we've inspected have shown no real visible marking on the stanchions from the coil, so it may be possible to go back to air in many cases, but we certainly wouldn't be able to guarantee that across the board.

    Just to clear up a couple things, our oil height/volume generates pressure on the oil to prevent cavitation and has only a minor affect on ramp-up compared to the air side or bottom-out systems. Our open bath cartridge also provides bottom control with our optional ABS hydraulic system that we have offered as part of our design for 20 Years. Just another note we have designed and tuned our cartridge for coil systems originally, adapted them for single damper air systems and so there is no reason it would not work very well with the Smashpot Coil conversion.
    We currently offer a coil conversion option for the Fox 36 160/150 travels. It uses a dual spring system in conjunction with our cartridge system. It will also work well with any other coil system (Push, TFTuned).
    Dual Coil Conversion Option

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by VelkePivo View Post
    I just want to add that I've had an Avalanche Chubie, an Avy cartridge in my MZ 44 RC3 Ti and have an Avy cartridge in my MZ 380and Pike. Avy stuff is great. I'm in no way faulting Avalanche for how bad my Pike feels (to me).
    On my Chubie each click gave a noticeable difference when addjusting it. With my Yari I would be fiddling with it between services (which were often) and it took a few clicks to feel a difference. Once i went to coil each click is like the Chubie now. RS forks have a ton of stiction IMHO

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree View Post
    Is it possible to convert a 170mm Fox 36 to 180mm with this kit?
    With the Smashpot, it will be possible to run any compatible fork at anything up to its maximum chassis-specified travel by changing the spacer configuration of the kit in 10mm increments. In the case of 36s that is usually either 160mm or 180mm, depending on the model year and the damper configuration (some dampers are 160 max, others 180 max). If your fork is 170mm right now, chances are it is 180-compatible. There are a handful of OEM forks out there that don't quite obey the "usual" maximum travel rules-of-thumb however.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRPABT1 View Post
    I thought I wanted a coil fork until I installed a Luftkappe. This seems like a very very well thought out kit though.
    Glad you're liking the Luftkappe. Truthfully, coil forks aren't for everyone. They are noticeably heavier and you lack the infinite adjustment of an air spring, but the linear initial spring rate and complete lack of sliding friction definitely help with the feel and the grip. Again, we are certainly not abandoning air springs, just giving people options. If compliance and grip when descending are your main priority and the weight is not a big concern for you, then coils are hard to argue with. If you do a ton of climbing and you really enjoy a light bike, or you alter settings from one riding scenario to another fairly frequently, or even if you just like a super progressive setup in general then air sprung stuff is great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crseekins View Post
    Just to clear up a couple things, our oil height/volume generates pressure on the oil to prevent cavitation and has only a minor affect on ramp-up compared to the air side or bottom-out systems. Our open bath cartridge also provides bottom control with our optional ABS hydraulic system that we have offered as part of our design for 20 Years. Just another note we have designed and tuned our cartridge for coil systems originally, adapted them for single damper air systems and so there is no reason it would not work very well with the Smashpot Coil conversion.
    We currently offer a coil conversion option for the Fox 36 160/150 travels. It uses a dual spring system in conjunction with our cartridge system. It will also work well with any other coil system (Push, TFTuned).
    Dual Coil Conversion Option
    Great. Thanks for the confirmation.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by VelkePivo View Post
    If remembering how good a fork can actually be is nostalgia, then count me as a sentimental old lady.

    My first MZ RC3 fork was a revelation. I couldn't believe how good it was. Since then I've heard a lot about how far air suspension has advanced, but I have a 2015 Pike with an Avy cartridge and I think it's scandalous how bad it is. It's OK on slow hits but on anything like a fast square edged hit it's horrendous. I've tried every setting I could after countless hours of internet research and the only thing that helped a bit was getting a new debonair air spring. Better, but still crap. Maybe I just got a lemon, but in the course of my research I sure read a lot of people hating theirs, too.

    I guess if you ride on smooth or loamy trails the Pike could be OK.
    I had the same impression of the Pike that you do. I was oh-so-happy to get rid of that POS.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    It's still BS today....that's why you have all these people coming out with aftermarket kits to fix your brand new expensive fork.
    Which is why I bought an MRP Ribbon coil for my current bike. I liked the idea of going coil from the get-go.

    I do have to admit that my last air fork, a Marzocchi 350 NCR was pretty nice. Not quite coil nice though.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    With the Smashpot, it will be possible to run any compatible fork at anything up to its maximum chassis-specified travel by changing the spacer configuration of the kit in 10mm increments. In the case of 36s that is usually either 160mm or 180mm, depending on the model year and the damper configuration (some dampers are 160 max, others 180 max). If your fork is 170mm right now, chances are it is 180-compatible. There are a handful of OEM forks out there that don't quite obey the "usual" maximum travel rules-of-thumb however.



    Glad you're liking the Luftkappe. Truthfully, coil forks aren't for everyone. They are noticeably heavier and you lack the infinite adjustment of an air spring, but the linear initial spring rate and complete lack of sliding friction definitely help with the feel and the grip. Again, we are certainly not abandoning air springs, just giving people options. If compliance and grip when descending are your main priority and the weight is not a big concern for you, then coils are hard to argue with. If you do a ton of climbing and you really enjoy a light bike, or you alter settings from one riding scenario to another fairly frequently, or even if you just like a super progressive setup in general then air sprung stuff is great.
    That compliance is very helpful when you ride a lot of wet roots.

    This looks like a very cool product by the way.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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    I'm interested in this product. Question - does it have a negative spring hidden somewhere, maybe between the rods? The push acs3 has it visible on pictures. Just curious.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben_mtb View Post
    I'm interested in this product. Question - does it have a negative spring hidden somewhere, maybe between the rods? The push acs3 has it visible on pictures. Just curious.
    Yep, the topout spring is inside the cartridge.
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  44. #44
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    Steve,

    any news with fox34 compatibility?

    thx
    Oren

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Steve,

    any news with fox34 compatibility?

    thx
    Oren
    No 34 compatibility at this stage unfortunately!
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    Steve,

    How about current/future plans for a DVO Diamond kit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by miniwisejosh View Post
    Steve,

    How about current/future plans for a DVO Diamond kit?
    Likely - depends on demand but easy enough to do.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    Likely - depends on demand but easy enough to do.
    Excellent. I hope it works out. Please count me as a contributor to demand for a DVO coil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miniwisejosh View Post
    Excellent. I hope it works out. Please count me as a contributor to demand for a DVO coil.
    Especially since it has a removable air cartridge and you could likely go back and forth. Seems like a great option. If I have the funds when it drops I'm a buyer (just being real.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    No 34 compatibility at this stage unfortunately!
    Please add my request for a 34 variant (130mm) to the pile! Gracias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    Likely - depends on demand but easy enough to do.
    how about cc helm?

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    Me also interested of CC Helm Coil kit from Vorsprung!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    how about cc helm?
    Possible - again dependent on demand.
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  54. #54
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    Steve, how linear will the conversion be without any HBO engaged? (I’m simlpy assuming that the HBO will have a range of adjustment)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Steve, how linear will the conversion be without any HBO engaged? (I’m simlpy assuming that the HBO will have a range of adjustment)
    Set to minimum it has pretty minimal effect. Set to maximum it's quite firm, firmer than I think most people would want. The range is quite wide. And if you really want it to be zero, you can revalve it lighter or for no resistance at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    Set to minimum it has pretty minimal effect. Set to maximum it's quite firm, firmer than I think most people would want. The range is quite wide. And if you really want it to be zero, you can revalve it lighter or for no resistance at all.
    Interesting stuff. Will the kits be custom tuned to the individual customer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Interesting stuff. Will the kits be custom tuned to the individual customer?
    They can be, upon request, but the range of adjustment is wide and its effect on every other aspect of performance besides bottoming control is nil (ie very easy to set up because it doesn't affect anything else), so not really anticipating that'll be necessary or beneficial in anything but the most extreme cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    They can be, upon request, but the range of adjustment is wide and its effect on every other aspect of performance besides bottoming control is nil (ie very easy to set up because it doesn't affect anything else), so not really anticipating that'll be necessary or beneficial in anything but the most extreme cases.
    Okay, got ya.

    What about lubrication, sounds like it’ll be an open bath application?

    Fingers crossed it is open bath. Avy cart one side, Smashpot the other - it would mean almost zero maintenance.
    Last edited by bigcrs; 12-03-2018 at 09:42 AM.

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    Has Vorsprung got any updates of when this might be available to us plebs?


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    Quote Originally Posted by B Rabbit View Post
    Has Vorsprung got any updates of when this might be available to us plebs?

    Hey mate. Got an email from Steve this morning. Should be available mid to late Jan.
    Waiting on the spring manufacturer to stump up the goods.
    I'm all over one of these like a fat kid on a donut.
    Might be able to combine shipping to the homeland to reduce costs

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    it would mean almost zero maintenance.
    Just a word of caution, they still need cleaning and oil changes. Even if they're running great.

    Many old school marzocchi owners did no maintenance, then when they did open the fork found it was grinding itself to pieces with debris on the bushings below the seals.

    Same reason you change oil in your car!
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    Can someone compare the pros & cons of the smashpot vs the ACS3? I'm assuming the main difference will be in bottom out system?
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Can someone compare the pros & cons of the smashpot vs the ACS3? I'm assuming the main difference will be in bottom out system?
    Also variable length and option to interchange to other forks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Just a word of caution, they still need cleaning and oil changes. Even if they're running great.

    Many old school marzocchi owners did no maintenance, then when they did open the fork found it was grinding itself to pieces with debris on the bushings below the seals.

    Same reason you change oil in your car!
    No I understand, that’s why I said ‘almost’. My riding mate was one of those guys. Jeez he still is lol. He still doesn’t get why his Pike is running like crap with zero services since (almost 3 years) got the thing.

    My Avy’d forks of the past would see more oil changes than was necessary beacause of the wipers, air spring service and year round PNW riding conditions.

    IF the Smashpot is open bath, and depending on the fork it’s dropped into, it’ll probably see more oil changes than required because of the damper (and everything listed above) service intervals.

    At this stage it is a big ‘IF’, because we have next to no details on the Smashpot.

    Man I love Smashpot as a name. My next dog (or for some crazy medically impossible way I end up with a kid) will most likely be called Smashpot!

  65. #65
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    pike/revelation compatible?

  66. #66
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    ah yos it says so in the article, sorry :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTmofo View Post
    Hey mate. Got an email from Steve this morning. Should be available mid to late Jan.
    Might be able to combine shipping to the homeland to reduce costs

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    Lets do it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by B Rabbit View Post
    Lets do it!
    I'll catch up with you on another forum. DM coming your way.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    My Avy’d forks of the past would see more oil changes than was necessary beacause of the wipers, air spring service and year round PNW riding conditions.
    Maybe that was because of sloppy old forks without annodized internals or something? I change it out of my Lyric and Yarilanche and it's not contaminated/broken down. Few places have as much mud as we do in AK, bottom brackets sometimes last only a few rides. But the Avy cart fork doesn't seem to care. I change the oil at the beginning of the season (spring) and it runs great. 3 years or so, only thing that broke was the creaky crown of the original Lyrik, but has nothing to do with damping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Maybe that was because of sloppy old forks without annodized internals or something? I change it out of my Lyric and Yarilanche and it's not contaminated/broken down. Few places have as much mud as we do in AK, bottom brackets sometimes last only a few rides. But the Avy cart fork doesn't seem to care. I change the oil at the beginning of the season (spring) and it runs great. 3 years or so, only thing that broke was the creaky crown of the original Lyrik, but has nothing to do with damping.
    hm, most suspension experts say that mud isn´t the worst for the fork wipers, but moon dust is. That thing will make it through any seal given enough time.

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    After a full weekend of DH riding in moon-dust at my local lift assist hill (clay based) you would be surprised at how dirty my open bath damper oil gets. And that is with fresh SKF green seals.

    Powder sugar fine dust sucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    After a full weekend of DH riding in moon-dust at my local lift assist hill (clay based) you would be surprised at how dirty my open bath damper oil gets. And that is with fresh SKF green seals.

    Powder sugar fine dust sucks.
    I'd bet that is just oil breaking down and changing colour. Here's a pictorial:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJwIt5Cjchs/

    Oil breakdown makes oil go from clear and clean, to darker colour, then brown and finally black. Some of the damper oil we recover looks like it came out of a farm tractor engine:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BaaRtwZFMIx/

    For dirt and dust to get past seals, you can see it trapped in the seal and packed between both lips. By the time that is happening, the seal is also bypassing oil the other way.

    My riding is also dry and dusty.
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  73. #73
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    Whilst I don't doubt what you say....

    ....and in most cases I would agree, as after riding since the late 60's I've never seen this but...

    ...when you can see the sediment settle out. I was curious as I have never seen fluid come out that colour.
    I'm pretty anal about fork service; nerve damage in the hand etc, so if I want to ride, it must be supple, supple, supple. When the foam rings come out feeling like they are loaded with honing paste I decided to leave them out and run a grease pack instead.
    Figured that a fresh set of the green skf would fix the problem. Nope.
    ( 2013 888 RC3 EVO Ti chassis )

    Last time I played with the shimstack, you could feel it on the shims almost like a honing paste residue.

    Hell maybe somehow the stanchions are undersized but with no bushing slop?? I have no idea but this thing is a talcum powder dust sieve.

    I just stay on top of fork service and ride it, although Redline suspension fluid gets expensive after a bit...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    hm, most suspension experts say that mud isn´t the worst for the fork wipers, but moon dust is. That thing will make it through any seal given enough time.
    If you've ever worked on an old marzocchi, you know that the oil always came out smelling skank as a nasty sludge with all sorts of metal particulates in it. Every. Single. Time. I don't know what they made the damping carts out of, but it was terrible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Whilst I don't doubt what you say....

    ....and in most cases I would agree, as after riding since the late 60's I've never seen this but...

    ...when you can see the sediment settle out. I was curious as I have never seen fluid come out that colour.
    I'm pretty anal about fork service; nerve damage in the hand etc, so if I want to ride, it must be supple, supple, supple. When the foam rings come out feeling like they are loaded with honing paste I decided to leave them out and run a grease pack instead.
    Figured that a fresh set of the green skf would fix the problem. Nope.
    ( 2013 888 RC3 EVO Ti chassis )

    Last time I played with the shimstack, you could feel it on the shims almost like a honing paste residue.

    Hell maybe somehow the stanchions are undersized but with no bushing slop?? I have no idea but this thing is a talcum powder dust sieve.

    I just stay on top of fork service and ride it, although Redline suspension fluid gets expensive after a bit...
    In my experience once a fork gets in to that state it is a nightmare to remove every last trace of it or else it will turn the oil black again instantly! These days I have multiple stages of cleaning to make sure all residue like that is gone

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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    When the foam rings come out feeling like they are loaded with honing paste I decided to leave them out and run a grease pack instead.

    Last time I played with the shimstack, you could feel it on the shims almost like a honing paste residue.

    Hell maybe somehow the stanchions are undersized but with no bushing slop?? I have no idea but this thing is a talcum powder dust sieve.
    It could be your grease. Grease has solids in it that eventually will dissolve into the oil.
    If you put a lot of grease in there, probably made its way into the oil and what you're getting are the dissolved solids of the grease.

    That was another reason for sludge in forks of yore... you'd grease the coil spring to avoid noise/rubbing against the stanchion and you'd get a sludge as it would mix with the oil in the lowers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    It could be your grease. Grease has solids in it that eventually will dissolve into the oil.
    If you put a lot of grease in there, probably made its way into the oil and what you're getting are the dissolved solids of the grease.

    That was another reason for sludge in forks of yore... you'd grease the coil spring to avoid noise/rubbing against the stanchion and you'd get a sludge as it would mix with the oil in the lowers.
    I don´t think solid lubricants in grease could be felt by hand though, it they were large enough you would be able to feel them even when applying it and I´m sure you wouldn´t want to use such a product.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    I don´t think solid lubricants in grease could be felt by hand though, it they were large enough you would be able to feel them even when applying it and I´m sure you wouldn´t want to use such a product.
    The residue would be the thickening agents on the grease, not lubricants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    The residue would be the thickening agents on the grease, not lubricants.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    Have you seen this happen before? And maybe more importantly are you sure it wasn´t just contaminants? Seems pretty scary if grease over time will form something that could cause wear to part it´s suppose to protect from wear in the first place.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    Have you seen this happen before? And maybe more importantly are you sure it wasn´t just contaminants? Seems pretty scary if grease over time will form something that could cause wear to part it´s suppose to protect from wear in the first place.
    I've seen the paste like residue forming on wipers, particularly on open bath forks where I used grease for the wipers. Yes, it can look like contaminants but that was not the case.
    Grease is a lubricant with soap like thickeners in the end.

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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Whilst I don't doubt what you say....

    ....and in most cases I would agree, as after riding since the late 60's I've never seen this but...

    ...when you can see the sediment settle out. I was curious as I have never seen fluid come out that colour.
    I'm pretty anal about fork service; nerve damage in the hand etc, so if I want to ride, it must be supple, supple, supple. When the foam rings come out feeling like they are loaded with honing paste I decided to leave them out and run a grease pack instead.
    Figured that a fresh set of the green skf would fix the problem. Nope.
    ( 2013 888 RC3 EVO Ti chassis )

    Last time I played with the shimstack, you could feel it on the shims almost like a honing paste residue.

    Hell maybe somehow the stanchions are undersized but with no bushing slop?? I have no idea but this thing is a talcum powder dust sieve.

    I just stay on top of fork service and ride it, although Redline suspension fluid gets expensive after a bit...
    Mostly likely just marzocchi sludge. Those forks made a lot of debris internally.

    I see two main types of sediment. Wear metals and grease/oil sludge.
    This one (right) is water in oil: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc8dfAUFdx-/
    This one is intentionally mixed new Supergliss and fork oils: https://www.instagram.com/p/BXyyfEHFz87/
    This one I think was mostly wear particles: https://www.instagram.com/p/BHlERcajstE/
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  82. #82
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    @Dougal

    Most like the bottom one, sediment on the bottom the next day.
    Grey-beige in colour. Like I said felt like honing paste.

    A service after a trip to Snowshoe which has a totally different composition showed the fluid to be nowhere near as cloudy, with about 1/4 the sediment. Still mankier than any other fork, including a 66 Evo Ti I had of the same vintage. The 66 which is pretty much the same thing internally never seemed to have the manky fluid, that is a special feature of the 888. It has done this since new, and there was no change when I put the Andreani piston in as well as a couple of shimstack revisions.

    I am seriously considering an Avy cartridge for this fork. Will be very interested to see how the fluids look after a service.

    So, at the moment, I just open it up several times a season and keep riding.
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  83. #83
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    i have a push acs3 in my fox36 now, im curious to see how this new vorsprung product performs
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by useport80 View Post
    i have a push acs3 in my fox36 now, im curious to see how this new vorsprung product performs
    The Push ACS3 is a nice bit of kit for sure, and fundamentally the two systems are quite similar insofar as being a coil spring with an adjustable anti-bottoming system.

    For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel, so we can taper its effect in quite gently. Because it acts as an energy dissipator (like a damper) rather than a secondary spring, the behaviour is a bit different deep in the stroke, with lower spring forces to minimise kickback in particularly holey terrain. (That sounded like some kind of religious euphemism, not intentional!). Basically it gently slows you down in a controlled manner, and doesn't throw a sudden buildup of energy back at you. Because its response is dependent on the energy input, when properly adjusted it lets you use nearly all the travel nearly all the time on big compressions - lower energy (lower velocity) compressions are allowed to use plenty of travel for comfort, but higher energy ones generate the support required.

    On attributes that aren't strictly performance related, the Smashpot is also travel adjustable within the range permissible on your fork (max of 180mm, min of 130mm) without having to purchase any new parts, and can be swapped between forks by swapping out only the top cap (and foot stud if moving between brands). As far as I am aware this is unique for such coil conversion kits - you can pull this kit out of a 140mm 27.5 Pike and throw it in a 160mm Lyrik for just the cost of a new top cap (and possibly a spring if you wanted a different spring rate for the different travel fork). We try to design this kind of thing to give people maximum utility for their money in addition to the performance benefits.
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  85. #85
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    Sounds absolutely fantastic Steve!

  86. #86
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    Have to say this product sounds extremely compelling. I am pretty much sold and ready to pull the trigger once it gets released to breathe some new life and coilness into my Pike. My best performing fork is still my old Vengeance coil HLR. Granted, it's a bit heavy, but runs circles around my 2018 Pike in terms of performance and adjustability. Come on Smashpot...hurry up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    The Push ACS3 is a nice bit of kit for sure, and fundamentally the two systems are quite similar insofar as being a coil spring with an adjustable anti-bottoming system.

    For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel, so we can taper its effect in quite gently. Because it acts as an energy dissipator (like a damper) rather than a secondary spring, the behaviour is a bit different deep in the stroke, with lower spring forces to minimise kickback in particularly holey terrain. (That sounded like some kind of religious euphemism, not intentional!). Basically it gently slows you down in a controlled manner, and doesn't throw a sudden buildup of energy back at you. Because its response is dependent on the energy input, when properly adjusted it lets you use nearly all the travel nearly all the time on big compressions - lower energy (lower velocity) compressions are allowed to use plenty of travel for comfort, but higher energy ones generate the support required.

    On attributes that aren't strictly performance related, the Smashpot is also travel adjustable within the range permissible on your fork (max of 180mm, min of 130mm) without having to purchase any new parts, and can be swapped between forks by swapping out only the top cap (and foot stud if moving between brands). As far as I am aware this is unique for such coil conversion kits - you can pull this kit out of a 140mm 27.5 Pike and throw it in a 160mm Lyrik for just the cost of a new top cap (and possibly a spring if you wanted a different spring rate for the different travel fork). We try to design this kind of thing to give people maximum utility for their money in addition to the performance benefits.
    Great!!

    Another vote for a 34 spring!
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    so.....would this potentially allow a '19 fox 36 to be a 130mm travel coil? it seems the travel available these days starts at 150mm stock...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn View Post
    so.....would this potentially allow a '19 fox 36 to be a 130mm travel coil? it seems the travel available these days starts at 150mm stock...
    It will be determined by the damper limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    The Push ACS3 is a nice bit of kit for sure, and fundamentally the two systems are quite similar insofar as being a coil spring with an adjustable anti-bottoming system.

    For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel, so we can taper its effect in quite gently. Because it acts as an energy dissipator (like a damper) rather than a secondary spring, the behaviour is a bit different deep in the stroke, with lower spring forces to minimise kickback in particularly holey terrain. (That sounded like some kind of religious euphemism, not intentional!). Basically it gently slows you down in a controlled manner, and doesn't throw a sudden buildup of energy back at you. Because its response is dependent on the energy input, when properly adjusted it lets you use nearly all the travel nearly all the time on big compressions - lower energy (lower velocity) compressions are allowed to use plenty of travel for comfort, but higher energy ones generate the support required.

    On attributes that aren't strictly performance related, the Smashpot is also travel adjustable within the range permissible on your fork (max of 180mm, min of 130mm) without having to purchase any new parts, and can be swapped between forks by swapping out only the top cap (and foot stud if moving between brands). As far as I am aware this is unique for such coil conversion kits - you can pull this kit out of a 140mm 27.5 Pike and throw it in a 160mm Lyrik for just the cost of a new top cap (and possibly a spring if you wanted a different spring rate for the different travel fork). We try to design this kind of thing to give people maximum utility for their money in addition to the performance benefits.
    There should be a like button on Tapatalk for brilliant posts from Steve.

    Super like!

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heiril View Post
    There should be a like button on Tapatalk for brilliant posts from Steve.

    Super like!

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
    Agreed.
    Can't wait for the smashpot.... itching to get one into my 36.

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

  92. #92
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    ty for the detailed reply steve.

    do you know if the smashpot can be installed in the same fork that previously had the push acs3 kit? i'd like to replace the acs3 with the smashpot if possible.
    2017 yeti sb6c turq x01 eagle

  93. #93
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    Oi Steve, when are you gonna drop a Vorsprung damper? Seems only fitting in my eyes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Great!!

    Another vote for a 34 spring!
    We'd love to make them for the 34 (and the Mattoc) but as it currently stands that isn't plausible as the stanchion ID is small enough that springs would need to become really heavy to fit them. If demand becomes sufficient we'll look at our options however.

    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn View Post
    so.....would this potentially allow a '19 fox 36 to be a 130mm travel coil? it seems the travel available these days starts at 150mm stock...
    Quote Originally Posted by JTmofo View Post
    It will be determined by the damper limits.

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
    JTmofo is basically correct. You can run it at any travel from 130mm up to whatever upper limit is set by your damper and/or fork chassis. If you have a Fox 36 and it's currently running at anything less than 180mm, call Fox's tech support with your 4-digit custom tune ID and/or serial number and they'll be able to tell you what your max travel is and whether the limitation is the damper (they'll be able to tell you what part needs replacing to increase max travel on that if so) or the chassis.

    Quote Originally Posted by useport80 View Post
    ty for the detailed reply steve.

    do you know if the smashpot can be installed in the same fork that previously had the push acs3 kit? i'd like to replace the acs3 with the smashpot if possible.
    Yep, it will be able to fit a fork that's previously had an ACS3 in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Oi Steve, when are you gonna drop a Vorsprung damper? Seems only fitting in my eyes
    That'd be cool, but won't be any time soon.
    VorsprungSuspension.com - fully engineered suspension retuning & servicing in Whistler, BC.
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel
    I can say without a doubt that the hydraulic anti-bottoming cone on my Avy cart has saved my a$$ more than once. I distinctly remember jumping a certain fairly large table top bigger and bigger and taking faster run-ins (from a road above instead of the trail) and then one way I way overshot the landing and landed only on the front wheel pitched forward. In most any other case, I would have banged the bottom and probably had a massive endo, but softly stopping at the end of travel in this situation is amazing, without having to use any crazy internal (air) pressure or seals. A hydraulic setup is the simplest IMO and extremely effective.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    Steve - will this be new Zoke Bomber z1 compatible as its basically Fox but with some unique fittings (air spring top cap) etc??

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamper11 View Post
    Steve - will this be new Zoke Bomber z1 compatible as its basically Fox but with some unique fittings (air spring top cap) etc??

    Thanks
    It will be Z1 compatible yes - that config may not be ready at launch as we are yet to check fitment but at worst it will be another top cap for us to make.
    VorsprungSuspension.com - fully engineered suspension retuning & servicing in Whistler, BC.
    Please use email instead of PMs.

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    Put me on that list ! I've ridden some other Coil forks/kits and think this would be killer in my current Z1

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve VS View Post
    We'd love to make them for the 34 (and the Mattoc) but as it currently stands that isn't plausible as the stanchion ID is small enough that springs would need to become really heavy to fit them. If demand becomes sufficient we'll look at our options however.
    Another vote for a 34 spring, but "really heavy" does not sound good.

  100. #100
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    I'm really interested in this kit and I'm looking forward to purchasing it when it's available for my fox 36.

    However, I'm afraid that shipping from Canada to France + taxes make it too expensive for me.

    Do you know if there are dealers for Vorsprung products in Europe (enventually in France).

    Best wishes for 2019, lads !

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