Tune Your Mission Control High Speed Shim Stack: How To Guide: Pics- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Tune Your Mission Control High Speed Shim Stack: How To Guide: Pics

    ================================================== ===============
    WARNING!
    Im not responsible if you damage your fork through hamfistedness or inexperiance working on suspension
    ================================================== ===============

    Hi all

    I have a 08 Lyrik coil u-turn on my Kona Bass, i love the fork, but i have noticed that i can blow through the travel REALLY easily, and the adjustment knobs seem to have no noticeable effect on the forks performance.

    The goal i wanted to acheive in tuning the highspeed shim stack was to try and retain small bump performance, but try and increase the bottom out resistance.

    This mod is really easy, no special tools are required, and accessing the shims can be done in about 5 mins with practice.

    This guide uses a lyrik mission control damper, and i see no reason why it shouldnt work for a totem. If you do not like the outcome, it is easy to return everything to a factory setting.

    Righto, time to show DA SHIMZ !

    ================================================== ===============
    Only tools required for this mod are as follows:

    > 24mm Socket
    > 4mm hex wrench
    > 1.5mm hex wrench
    > Shifter
    > Rags
    > Digital Vernier Calipers (for measuring the shims)
    > Frosty Beverage (for afterwards of course!)

    STEP 1:
    First, we gotta remove the Mission Control Damper. Make sure that the HSC knob is set at maximum hardness (turned fully right). You can tell if its in the correct position as the blue knob will be raised off the wrench flats.



    STEP 2:
    Next you'll want to take your wrench and tighten it on the LSC Knob, then using a 4mm hex, loosen the floodgate adjuster, then the LSC knob will just lift off.





    Next using you 1.5mm hex wrench, loosen the 2 grub screws holding the HSC knob on, then lift it off. Make sure you put the adjuster knobs in a safe place and dont loose em.



    STEP 3:
    Using your 24mm socket, loosen the Mission control top cap


    Once the threads are disengaged, lift the Mission Control damper out of the stanchion, dont yank it out, rock it gently from side to side and lift it out, a tip is to press the centre bit (where the LSC konb sits) down while you lift it out, as this will drain any oil in the floodgate assembly.



    Lift it out and use a rag to wipe away the residue oil, be very careful not do damage the grey piston glyde ring, i strongly suggest you CAREFULLY remove it and place it in a safe place to ensure you dont damage it



    STEP 4:
    Now that you have completely removed the Mission Control Damper, place it on a clean workbench.


    The shim stack is sandwiched between the flared end of the black tube (which i have pulled back to reveal a little black plate which sits inside the base of the black tube) and the gold piston. When you you adjust the HSC knob to make it harder, this black plate is screwed onto the shims, basically acting as a preload adjuster on them, increasing the HSC.


    Next you are going to want to grip the threaded part of the top cap and the gold piston at the bottom, then turn the piston to the left (left from looking at the bottom of the Mission Control Damper) which will unscrew it.


    You can now access the shim's (SHIMZ! ). The HSC compression shim stack is 3 same sized shims, i dont have any measurements though as my vernier calipers died, if someone could give the measurements id be very grateful.


    Now time to tune. Seeing as i wanted more progressiveness, i used a pyramid (sort off) stack. The 2 shims below the 3 originals are 2 same sized but larger shims which i had from an old roco, as the ID hole is the same (again, sorry i dont have measurements but will post them as soon as i have them.). My stack consisted of using a stock sized base shim with the two larger ones on top, but you may tune to your liking.


    I decided to stick to 3 shims, im not certain if you can add many more as the black preload plate (HSC adjust) may grind on them if there are to many. I also recommend you keep the stock shims separate in a safe place incase you want to return to factory spec.


    Install your shims back onto the piston, make sure you get the orientation correct.


    Then screw the piston back on. This is why it was important to make sure that you turned the HSC to max before working, as this makes sure the piston is screw onto the right depth on the threads.



    Thats it your done! Only thing left to do is to reinstall the gylde ring is you removed it, screw the damper back in and put the knobs on. Now this mode may take a bit of trial and error to get a perfect setting for you. You may have to take the damper apart a couple of times to find the perfect shim setting, but dissassembly gets easier the more you do it. I was extremely lucky that my first stack was near perfect for me and my weight (65kg (metric FTW )) Also you may have to check you oil volume if a large amount of oil spilled when you pulled the damper back. Measurement is 112mL of 5wt oil.


    ================================================== ===============
    Shim Measurements:

    Stock Shims:
    Outer Diameter: 20mm
    Inner Diamter: 8mm
    Thickness: 0.10mm

    Mod Shims:
    Outer Diameter: 21mm
    Inner Diameter: 8mm
    Thickness: 0.15

    ================================================== ===============

    Ride report:

    I have a couple days of riding on this moded fork....
    and all i can say is OMFG! It feels freaken awesome, my first shim stack is bloody perfect. The fork has a plushness that rivals that of my 66, meaning small bumps are almost non exsistant. Then about 3/4 of the way down, the larger shims kick in, significantly increasing the bottom out resistance. After a couple days of drops and jumps, i have only bottomed the fork once (and it was on a VERY scrappy landing)

    The Adjustment knobs also have a MUCH more noticeable effect on the damping, even the LSC feels better, which is odd because the LSC is seperate from the High speed shim stack, oh well i anit complaining . I have noticed that the HSC knob may feel as if its stiffer and grinding a little, but its nothing to worry about, ive turned it about a billion times in the last couple of days and nothing has gone wrong.

    ================================================== ===============

    So in the end, do i like this mod?

    **** YES!

    This fork now rips alot better on my bass as im nolonger bottoming the fork by riding off a step. Ill be posting up more long term riding reports as well as the measurements of the shims i used as soon as i have a working set of vernier calipers.

    Hope you found this little mod useful
    Enjoy!
    Last edited by Nick_M2R; 08-24-2009 at 03:49 PM.

  2. #2

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    Thanks for posting that. I'll keep it in mind if I end up with a Lyrik and it's not Pushed. While I like the 36, there isn't really this level of adjustability, though there is one shim.

    I hope more manufacturers offer shim tuning options.

  3. #3
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    No prob JC, glad to hear you liked it, if you end up getting a Lyrik and tune it, let us know how it goes

  4. #4
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    Yeah, I noticed this too on my Lyric, I'm 145lbs, using the stock red spring, which is rated for a 160lbs. minimum rider. I can still bottom the fork during jumps, even with 8-10 HSC. With my current spring the fork feels a little harsh on choppy terrain. When trail riding I only use 2 clicks of HSC,LSC. Nonetheless I'm still very happy with the fork, just need a softer spring for trail riding.

    Nick - How much do you weigh, and what spring are you using red, yellow?
    Folangag

  5. #5
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    Im 65kg (im in australia, so metric all the way!) and use a stock red spring, gives me perfect sag

  6. #6
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    Cool write up Nick! This sounds like just the mod I've been looking for. I'm 190Lbs.(or should I say 86.18Kg) and even with the firm spring in my Lyrik I experience a lot of pretty harsh bottom out. So if I'm understanding correctly, we're looking for different, or larger OD sizes on the shims with the same thickness?

  7. #7
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    Seriously, did you need to put a disclaimer on this All internet information is to be taken with a grain of salt. I appreciate the documentation of the suspension you have been putting up But I wouldn't hold it against you if I damaged something following your example. What is the world coming to.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  8. #8
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    Excellent documentary and your choice of shims is very educational. Without any experience doing this myself, the "mushroom" stack makes logical sense for better big hit speed sensitivity bringing increased progressive compression, and maintaining milder damping for the more moderate trail riding hits.

    There was a recent post here wondering when there will be PUSH tuning for the Lyrik to gain such a wider range of speed sensitivity for rebound. I wonder if doing a similar "mushroom" stack for the rebound piston would bring similar deep travel rebound increased damping landing jumps, while maintaining faster rebound for more moderate hits when trail riding.

    Replacing a couple shims is a lot less expensive than PUSH tuning for those who are mechanically inclined. Although I know PUSH also sometimes replaces the pistons and seals with better quality and always checks slider bushing and leg alignment and more with their service.

  9. #9
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    Nice one!

    Thanks for posting that up!

    This gives us another fork with tuning options.

    Lyric is on the short list now.

    P

  10. #10
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    Cheers for all the positive responses guys

    Comments like that make me want to post more things like this up (Coming soon will be a DHX Air rebuild Guide )

    Seriously, did you need to put a disclaimer on this All internet information is to be taken with a grain of salt. I appreciate the documentation of the suspension you have been putting up But I wouldn't hold it against you if I damaged something following your example. What is the world coming to.
    Haha Yea i know, i put that warning there for the little kids who are flat out turning a wrench who try to do some stuff to there forks, then screw it up and come crying to me about how i broke their fork

    Excellent documentary and your choice of shims is very educational. Without any experience doing this myself, the "mushroom" stack makes logical sense for better big hit speed sensitivity bringing increased progressive compression, and maintaining milder damping for the more moderate trail riding hits.

    There was a recent post here wondering when there will be PUSH tuning for the Lyrik to gain such a wider range of speed sensitivity for rebound. I wonder if doing a similar "mushroom" stack for the rebound piston would bring similar deep travel rebound increased damping landing jumps, while maintaining faster rebound for more moderate hits when trail riding.

    Replacing a couple shims is a lot less expensive than PUSH tuning for those who are mechanically inclined. Although I know PUSH also sometimes replaces the pistons and seals with better quality and always checks slider bushing and leg alignment and more with their service.
    Cheers for the comments mate
    The mushroom stack was what i was thinking from the start, when i first seen that the shim stack was 3 same sizied shims, it made perfect sense why the fork felt so linear. Because the shims didnt get larger, oil just sort of blew through them, and i reckon thats why the HSC knob had little effect. I thought that adding to larger shims on top of a stock one would give me the damping i was looking for, plush in the first 3/4 travel, then stiffen up towards the bottom, and as i said my dampening is now bang on plus the HSC Knob now feels as if its doing something. As soon as i track down a pair of calipers ill get measurements of the shims i used

    Cool write up Nick! This sounds like just the mod I've been looking for. I'm 190Lbs.(or should I say 86.18Kg) and even with the firm spring in my Lyrik I experience a lot of pretty harsh bottom out. So if I'm understanding correctly, we're looking for different, or larger OD sizes on the shims with the same thickness?
    Yep thats what you want, the shims i used are the same thickness and ID, but larger OD

    Nice one!

    Thanks for posting that up!

    This gives us another fork with tuning options.

    Lyric is on the short list now.

    P
    Cheers Mr. P
    Also thank must goto you, as your TST shim mod was what inspired me to do this, as well as provide alot of info

  11. #11
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    i want to do this mod - where to get these size shims???

    my lyrik (and totem) needs this mod. i'm doing it if i can find the shims. but what size are the shims and where to get them?

  12. #12
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    I dont have exact measurements for the shims, i reused some shims from my old ROCO that died because the ID was the same as the stock ones
    Try MXTech.com for shims

  13. #13
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    You''re a champ. I'm gonna take apart my old mission control and see what goes, if I can find a supplier for da shimz of course!
    ~ Downride and Freehill, nothing else ~

  14. #14
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    Righto people an update

    So far i have one 25km cross country epic and numerous runs on our new DH trail on the moded fork and all i can say is that i am in love! The dampening in this baby is so much better than before. Also nothing broken to report, its solid as a rock

  15. #15
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    This page is definitely getting bookmarked,
    awesome stuff man i appreciate the effort & documentation.

  16. #16
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    I'm confused....are the two shims that you changed the same thickness as the originals, but just larger in diameter?

    Darren

  17. #17
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    Is the Lyrik MC cart the same as what is used in the Totem?

  18. #18
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    Darren: Same thickness, larger OD

    Flip: i dont see why the totem MC would be any different, besides being slightly larger

  19. #19
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    huh.....using a larger OD but the same thickness shouldn't produce any change especially to bottoming resistance because the shims are all bending at the same rate when stacked on top of each other. If you used a separating shim to build a two stage stack you might see something but even then it would be difficult because the shims are under preload from the HS spring and the secondary stack may be pushed into the initial stack when static.

    I'm guessing if you noticed a difference in bottoming control it's coming from a slight increase in oil level in the damper leg which would give you an increase in spring rate at the end of the stroke.

    Darren

  20. #20
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    Darren:
    There isnt any bottoming increase from the oil level, as i havent increased the oil level at oil, might even be a little low as you loose some oil when you remove the damper

    With regard to the shim thickness, truth be told i dont have exact measurements as my calipers have died and wont be able to buy new ones till i got to the city next weekend. As of now ive only used a REALLY old set of micrometer's, but i wouldnt trust the measurements. The new shims maybe a tad thicker, or even still you maybe correct and the BO increase is all in my head, either way it like how the fork feels now, it does have an increase in bottom out aswell as the adjusters now feel as if they are doing something

    I had considered using a two stage stack, but was worried that the HSC preload bolt would start grinding on the shims, as there where only 3 shims in there to begin with, but i may try a bit of fiddling and see what happens

    Also just to clear up in no way do i mean to sound like a prick, i actually appreciate your comments, helps me understand even more about these things and ways to improve it

  21. #21
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    Also just to clear up in no way do i mean to sound like a prick, i actually appreciate your comments, helps me understand even more about these things and ways to improve it
    LOL.....Understood, I actually didn't take it that way.

    As for the shims, the thickness increments are 0.1mm, 0.15mm, and 0.2mm so you'd be able to tell the stiffness difference in your fingers without having to measure them. If you can't feel the difference with your fingers, they're probably the same.

    In thinking about this further, another factor maybe the height that you set the jam nut when reassembling the MC unit. Increasing or decreasing the height of the jam nut would change the static height of the HS circuit therefore influencing the damping range that you get as well as the range that the adjusters are effecting. So, if in reassembling your jam nut height was higher than how it came from the factory, you would experience the increased compression force throughout the entire range. As I sit here typing I also just realized that the jam nut height has an effect on the Floodgate range as well.....so many things to consider!

    Darren.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    LOL.....Understood, I actually didn't take it that way.

    As for the shims, the thickness increments are 0.1mm, 0.15mm, and 0.2mm so you'd be able to tell the stiffness difference in your fingers without having to measure them. If you can't feel the difference with your fingers, they're probably the same.

    In thinking about this further, another factor maybe the height that you set the jam nut when reassembling the MC unit. Increasing or decreasing the height of the jam nut would change the static height of the HS circuit therefore influencing the damping range that you get as well as the range that the adjusters are effecting. So, if in reassembling your jam nut height was higher than how it came from the factory, you would experience the increased compression force throughout the entire range. As I sit here typing I also just realized that the jam nut height has an effect on the Floodgate range as well.....so many things to consider!

    Darren.
    Haha cheers for that, just didnt want you to think i was being a prick bout it haha

    Yep just check the shims with my fingers in the way you described, the 2 i put in there are definitely stiffer than the stock ones, which feel really flimsy.

    Now that you mentioned it, i agree with you about the jam nut, having it set at a different point would make a difference on when the HSC engages as it changes when the oil hits it right?, i may have set it a wee bit higher

    One bloke on pinkbike said i sould remove the Floodgate base plate from the bottom so i get full use from my mod as MUCH more oil will flow through it, although i dont really want to loose the platform, makes the 25km desert races much more bearable

  23. #23
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    Yep just check the shims with my fingers in the way you described, the 2 i put in there are definitely stiffer than the stock ones, which feel really flimsy.

    Now that you mentioned it, i agree with you about the jam nut, having it set at a different point would make a difference on when the HSC engages as it changes when the oil hits it right?, i may have set it a wee bit higher
    Okay, with that being the case then you've effectively shifted the force curve on compression. The positive is that the increase in compression force will be better for single impacts, the negative being that you'll decrease initial bump sensitivity and cause the fork to be less reactive to impacts such as breaking bumps. This is exactly why we often install new pistons into forks and shocks. It allows us to balance the two by using firmer shimming for control, but different port volume and shape to allow the shims to open more rapidly under bump forces.

    Funny thing is, doing what you're doing is what got me my start more than 20 years ago in a garage in Northern Maine. I'm still playing with the same stuff, just now with the advantage of powerful software programs, on-board data logging, and a suspension dynamometer!

    Best of luck!

    Darren

  24. #24
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    Hey Darren-Totem Service

    Hey Darren!
    Any word on Totem tuning at Push?

  25. #25
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    Thanks Darren! Very interesting analysis. Your years of tweaking shocks is worth every dollar of a PUSH tune, and really much more.

  26. #26
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    Righto people, an update, i finally have measurements of the shims

    the stock shims measurements are as follows:

    Outer Diameter: 20mm
    Inner Diameter: 8mm
    Thickness: 0.10mm

    And my replacement shim measurements are as follows:

    Outer DIameter: 21mm
    Inner Diameter: 8mm
    Thickness: 0.15mm

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    huh.....using a larger OD but the same thickness shouldn't produce any change especially to bottoming resistance because the shims are all bending at the same rate when stacked on top of each other. If you used a separating shim to build a two stage stack you might see something but even then it would be difficult because the shims are under preload from the HS spring and the secondary stack may be pushed into the initial stack when static.

    I'm guessing if you noticed a difference in bottoming control it's coming from a slight increase in oil level in the damper leg which would give you an increase in spring rate at the end of the stroke.

    Darren
    Of note--I have tuned a couple of forks (motor bikes) with greater OD shims of original thickness to achieve greater compression damping (my logic being less flow around the edges of the shim causing greater deflection). This does not affect bottom out resistance but could give a similar effect if there is greater compression. I will digress, however, both instances involved open bath systems so my results may not be relevant here.

  28. #28
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    Nick_M2R, congrats on the topic and the mod!!!

    Keep us posted on our feeling on it!

  29. #29
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    Cheers Marcolino!

    This mod has really livened up my lyrik, it nolonger bottoms going of steps, the compression dials now have a noticeable effect on the damping, and it has much more bottom out resistance, this thing now rocks on my Bass, a very worthwhile little mod

  30. #30
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    So, I'm finally getting to this mod on my Lyrik as it's been feeling kinda dead lately. After I had the MC apart I was inspecting the piston. Looking through the HSC port holes I noticed some gunky looking stuff inside the piston. So I dug a little deeper into the piston by removing the inner c-clip and found this:



    It appears to be some sort of o-ring or seal although it feels a bit to brittle and if it is, what is it supposed to seal? As you can tell it is way distorted and blocking the ports in the piston. Anyone have any clues what this is supposed to look like?

  31. #31
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    It's part of the Floodgate system. The first pic is all four pieces (from a Totem and Lyrik), while the second pic shows the part in question in new condition (again one from a Totem and one from a Lyrik, they are just flipped to show both sides).
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  32. #32
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    What would you accomplish by removing the floodgate? Seems to me there would be no noticable diff between running with the adjuster fully open versus removing it altogether? I think a lot of users just don't get that the adjuster has an affect even with floodgate off. I can't imagine running with no floodgate; would dive like crazy then and you'd bottom out way too easily! Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  33. #33
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    I think a lot of users just don't get that the adjuster has an affect even with floodgate off
    That's the whole point of removing the floodgate. You like the additional low speed compression given by the floodgate even when it is set to open. Others don't. Many people who removed the floodgate are using heavier oil to get more compression. The advantage of removing the floodgate seems to be a better sensitivity to small bumps, even with the heavier oil.
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC to whining spammer
    Don't let the nose of your saddle hit you in the @#!#X on the way out.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by amrgb
    That's the whole point of removing the floodgate. You like the additional low speed compression given by the floodgate even when it is set to open. Others don't. Many people who removed the floodgate are using heavier oil to get more compression. The advantage of removing the floodgate seems to be a better sensitivity to small bumps, even with the heavier oil.
    Ah! Heavier weight oil would make sense then! Lot of different ways to skin a cat. I do like how mine (Lyrik Solo Air) feels now tho but do need more bottom out resistance for FR... so what to do? Probably just add a thicker shim like the OP suggested? I can prevent bottom out by cranking the HS comp damping in more than 6 clicks but then it's harsh over square edge hits.

    Thanks,

    G
    Last edited by Gman086; 09-10-2009 at 09:39 AM.
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  35. #35
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    If you are willing to try, I think you could put more oil in the air chamber to make it more progressive. I haven't tested this theory yet, because I'm having constant problems with the fork and I can't even ride for long enough trouble free to tune the damn thing (right now I have oil migrating from the lowers to the damper, can you believe that).

    I opened a thread to discuss that, and one concern that was raised, is the extra oil migrating to the negative chamber, negating the benefit of adding oil or even screwing up the spring rate even more.
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC to whining spammer
    Don't let the nose of your saddle hit you in the @#!#X on the way out.

  36. #36
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    Romar, that hard o-ring piece looked the same misshaped way in my lyrik too. I took that as evidence that oil flow was pushing it against the high speed ports and hence misshaped it, and that people on here where right about it limiting oil flow. I took mine out.

    Funny how everyones view on how the damping of the lyrik needs to be changed are different. I thought small bump sensitivity and also low speed damping was to stiff so I run 2.5wt oil in the damper with the low and high speed full fast. Like that alot. But I do have the UT coil with the RS suggested spring for my weight and seems like some run a lighter spring than RS recomendations.

  37. #37
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    Thanks all for your comments, and pipes10 thanks for the pic. I'm going to run the fork without the floodgate guts, play around with some different oil weights and see how it is.

  38. #38
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    To add to pipes10's post.
    I just removed my MC this weekend. Haven't had a chance to ride it yet, but I took some pics of the process.
    1. before removal
    2. the 4 pieces you remove, from left to right.
    -retaining ring
    -brass plunger
    -rubber o-ring
    -shim
    3. after it's been removed
    Attached Images Attached Images

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by romar
    So, I'm finally getting to this mod on my Lyrik as it's been feeling kinda dead lately. After I had the MC apart I was inspecting the piston. Looking through the HSC port holes I noticed some gunky looking stuff inside the piston. So I dug a little deeper into the piston by removing the inner c-clip and found this:



    It appears to be some sort of o-ring or seal although it feels a bit to brittle and if it is, what is it supposed to seal? As you can tell it is way distorted and blocking the ports in the piston. Anyone have any clues what this is supposed to look like?
    Here is an explanation of what that does - the weird squashed thing looks like its the blow off valve on the floodgate.

    https://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech...of_piston_body

  40. #40
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    So by removing the floodgate, do we basically turn our damper into a copy of the new mission control DH damper?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_M2R
    So by removing the floodgate, do we basically turn our damper into a copy of the new mission control DH damper?
    little more than that. The dh dampener has high/low speed rebound on a larger shaft moving more oil.

    I was looking for more bottom out resistance and ended up putting the floodgate back in to slow things down a bit.

  42. #42
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    a belated "thanks"....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_M2R
    Righto people, an update, i finally have measurements of the shims

    the stock shims measurements are as follows:

    Outer Diameter: 20mm
    Inner Diameter: 8mm
    Thickness: 0.10mm

    And my replacement shim measurements are as follows:

    Outer DIameter: 21mm
    Inner Diameter: 8mm
    Thickness: 0.15mm
    nick you're a champ! now, i'm gonna do it to mine. sorry i took so long to get back to this and thank you.

  43. #43
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    No prob Mr.Niles, hope it works out well for ya!

  44. #44
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    nick - one question....
    about the orientation of the shims....
    did you place your largest shim over the piston ports, or are the stock shims over the piston ports with the larger shim stacked on them?

    do this make sense? most shim stacks i've seen are pyramidal with the largest shim covering the ports, then the smaller shims are stacked on top of that in succession large-to-small, thus forming "pyramid" or "cone" shape. are yours stacked like this over the ports?

  45. #45
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    Yep the largest shims where placed on the piston port side, while the stock one is ontop (contacting the black jam nut)

  46. #46
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    So is the shape of the shims actually doing any thing or is it just the fact that you are pr4eloading the HS by 50% more than before

  47. #47
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    Yes the shims are actually doing something.
    I wind the knobs all the way off, the fork dives all over the places, wind it on and it feels alot stiffer, the HSC now has a noticeable effect, unlike before.

    I tried fiddling round with different configs, like removing the stock shim and replacing it with a larger and thicker one to completement the others. Fork felt VERY stiff, way to rough over the bumpy stuff and it would lock up on the whoops on our little pump track

    Either way the shim mod does have an effect, the HSC adjuster now actually does something and the fork nolonger bottoms on small drops

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratt
    little more than that. The dh dampener has high/low speed rebound on a larger shaft moving more oil.

    I was looking for more bottom out resistance and ended up putting the floodgate back in to slow things down a bit.
    Ratt, i didnīt understand completly...

    You mean the dh dampener is different, with more adjustments?

  49. #49
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    The Mission Control damper dosent have more adjustments. Its basically a regular Mission Control damper minus a few things. There is no floodgate in the MiCo DH, instead it is replaced with a High Flow piston, which great increases oil flow around piston/shim area, meaning a much mroe supple and plush ride for DH riding

  50. #50
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    Nick M2R, with your current set up, how many mm of preload if any are you puting on the HS spring when HS is set to full fast or min preload? Has this changed any from stock?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    Ratt, i didnīt understand completly...

    You mean the dh dampener is different, with more adjustments?
    The DH rebound shaft is increased from 12mm to 19mm to force much more oil through the compression circuit.

    On the Boxxer the Beginning stroke and Ending stroke (low/high speed) rebound are externally adjustable. On the single crown forks only the beginning stroke is adjustable and the End stroke is preset from the factory internally. I think the non-dh rebound is low speed only.

    I was looking for more bottom out resistance, so I actually put the floodgate back in and pre-loaded the HS spring by bottoming out the jam nut to the main shaft. Have better bottom out resistance but the fork is a bit harsh on the chatter bumps compared to the fork without the floodgate and no preload. Going play with the shim stack next.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratt
    The DH rebound shaft is increased from 12mm to 19mm to force much more oil through the compression circuit.

    On the Boxxer the Beginning stroke and Ending stroke (low/high speed) rebound are externally adjustable. On the single crown forks only the beginning stroke is adjustable and the End stroke is preset from the factory internally. I think the non-dh rebound is low speed only.

    I was looking for more bottom out resistance, so I actually put the floodgate back in and pre-loaded the HS spring by bottoming out the jam nut to the main shaft. Have better bottom out resistance but the fork is a bit harsh on the chatter bumps compared to the fork without the floodgate and no preload. Going play with the shim stack next.
    I got it now! Nice explanation!

    I guess with a bit of shim stack testing you will be on the right track!

  53. #53

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    So if I wanted to have less HSC and a more plush fork overall could I just remove one or two of the shims? From reading through the post it seems like the stock shims are as thin as they come (.10), and not sure I want to completely remove the flood gate.

    Thanks

  54. #54
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    How much do you weigh?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhistlerMike
    So if I wanted to have less HSC and a more plush fork overall could I just remove one or two of the shims? From reading through the post it seems like the stock shims are as thin as they come (.10), and not sure I want to completely remove the flood gate.

    Thanks
    No i would not recommend that, I'd first remove the floodgate (if this is still off the table go to step 2), second make sure with the hsc all the way open that the upper spring is not putting any pre-load on the shim stack, and third try a lighter oil.

  55. #55

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    After reading into this further I'm going to try removing the floodgate, don't think I've ever used it anyway. Will do this tomorrow morning and post results.

    I weigh 155 lbs.

    Great write-up by the way!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratt
    No i would not recommend that, I'd first remove the floodgate (if this is still off the table go to step 2), second make sure with the hsc all the way open that the upper spring is not putting any pre-load on the shim stack, and third try a lighter oil.
    This is good advise. Allthought you could try the lighter oil (2.5wt) and HS preload seting 1st if you actually use your lockout any. I've done those 3 to my lyrik and I like it a lot better. And I am heavier than most and running the extra firm spring. I know small bump has to be harsh for small riders running the lighter rate springs.

  57. #57
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    I found a link to this thread and think its worth reviving for an update.

    Sounds like I was right when I thought my high speed adjustment wasnt really helping on bottom out. With the same 7' drop my 36RC2 seems to handle better than my Totem and I bought my Totem thinking it would help in my progression to more DH riding and bigger freeride hits. I seem to make up the lack of HSC by winding up my LSC when I freeride which doesnt help for DH where I lose small bump sensitivity. I run my HSC 2 full turns with half a turn left and use full travel on said 7' drop.
    DH setting 6 clicks LSC and11/2 turns of HSC
    FR setting 10 clicks of LSC and 2 turns of HSC
    My HSC doesnt click hencs reference to full turns etc.

    I do some milage with the Maelstrom so the floodgate helps on long climbs which means I am not rushing to remove this feature. Any updates on shims etc? I will have to see what I can find in South Korea.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan pablo
    I found a link to this thread and think its worth reviving for an update.

    Sounds like I was right when I thought my high speed adjustment wasnt really helping on bottom out. With the same 7' drop my 36RC2 seems to handle better than my Totem and I bought my Totem thinking it would help in my progression to more DH riding and bigger freeride hits. I seem to make up the lack of HSC by winding up my LSC when I freeride which doesnt help for DH where I lose small bump sensitivity. I run my HSC 2 full turns with half a turn left and use full travel on said 7' drop.
    DH setting 6 clicks LSC and11/2 turns of HSC
    FR setting 10 clicks of LSC and 2 turns of HSC
    My HSC doesnt click hencs reference to full turns etc.

    I do some milage with the Maelstrom so the floodgate helps on long climbs which means I am not rushing to remove this feature. Any updates on shims etc? I will have to see what I can find in South Korea.
    hi jaun
    unfortunatly the only place I've found that sells shims internationally is mxtech.com

  59. #59
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    Just in case anyone wants to order custom shims for cheap:
    http://www.misumi-ec.com/usa/eusaen/...300237240.html

  60. #60
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    Just in case anyone wants to order custom shims for cheap:
    http://www.misumi-ec.com/usa/eusaen/...300237240.html
    I just looked at this site and the problem that I see is that they don't show an applicable material for shock absorber shims. The materials that they have listed won't work. Just FYI before you spend the money.

    Darren

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    I just looked at this site and the problem that I see is that they don't show an applicable material for shock absorber shims. The materials that they have listed won't work. Just FYI before you spend the money.

    Darren
    I am curious as to what material is required. I never really realized there were choices in the matter. The site has low carbon steel, brass (C2801P), and 304 stainless steel. Can you school us on what the number designators mean also? I know low carbon steel makes it less flexible, more tightly packed molecules so I can see that being an issue where they may be more brittle but that is just theoretical deduction on my part.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    I just looked at this site and the problem that I see is that they don't show an applicable material for shock absorber shims. The materials that they have listed won't work. Just FYI before you spend the money.

    Darren
    Well that sucks, since I just ordered some low carbon steel ones!

    The problem is, in my application they're for an old Fox Alps shock, and I haven't found the size I need anywhere else.

  63. #63
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    You want shims from these guys.

    http://www.mx-tech.com/?cat=12&id=products

    Those steel shims wouldn't bend at all. They're designed for something completely different.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    You want shims from these guys.

    http://www.mx-tech.com/?cat=12&id=products

    Those steel shims wouldn't bend at all. They're designed for something completely different.
    I tried MX Tech and it's a no go. I need two shims with ID of 10mm and an OD of 18mm and 28mm.

    Will they not flex even though they're only 0.1mm thick?

  65. #65

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    Just wanted to post my results after removing the floodgate. It feels like it breaks away a bit faster on high speed compression hits, which is exactly what I was looking for, and no downsides at all. Functions the same as before while pedaling, don't notice any excessive dive while cornering, and I never used the floodgate anyway, so great mod. Livens up the fork a lot. and really good instructions

  66. #66
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    I be damned if I can unscrew the compression piston. I got a 2010 mission control damper and I was curious to take it apart. But it doesn't budge and my hands are already screwed up.

    Nick, how hard was it to unscrew yours? Maybe a little oil will help.

    But I can see that the new damper has 3 shims but all of different diameter.
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  67. #67
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    [QUOTE=amrgb]I be damned if I can unscrew the compression piston. I got a 2010 mission control damper and I was curious to take it apart. But it doesn't budge and my hands are already screwed up.

    Nick, how hard was it to unscrew yours? Maybe a little oil will help.

    QUOTE]

    Hi mate
    Mine was actually pretty easy to undo. It was by pure chance that i undone it anyway. I was holding the base (piston) while i was turning the HSC knob back and then noticed that i had undone the piston at the same time. Try giving it a shot of oil, hopefully that should loosen things up abit

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhistlerMike
    Just wanted to post my results after removing the floodgate. It feels like it breaks away a bit faster on high speed compression hits, which is exactly what I was looking for, and no downsides at all. Functions the same as before while pedaling, don't notice any excessive dive while cornering, and I never used the floodgate anyway, so great mod. Livens up the fork a lot. and really good instructions
    I did mine acouple of months ago 'solo air' with the same results. It was a awsome fork before and now its even better.

  69. #69
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    HI,

    I have a 2010 Totem Coil with Mission Control DH and the fork doesn`t work well on small bumps! I will change the shims now - my question to get a smooth fork on small pumps: should be the outer Diameter of the shims bigger or smaller than the standard shims??

  70. #70
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    So, I took everything apart..thank you for this thread. So far I have removed the floodgate and dialed in the HS compression shim stack. I did this because removing the floodgata on the SA made the fork blow through it's travel. I was hoping to compensate with heavier oils an attempt to get the HS stack to engage a little earlier in the travel. Funny thing, at least on the SA. All of this has really affected the rebound top out. It has absolutely no damping near the top end of the rebound. It appears that fiddling with the HS compression eases this a little, but still much too harsh. I have to add a bit more air as well which makes things rough on the small stuff

    We did the same service on (minus the HS shim mod) on my buddy's Totem Coil and it does seem to be an improvement. I guess the coil provides quite a bit more mid-stroke and is already quite progressive by design.

    My initial feelings are that this is not necessarily for the SA. I would be interested in the shim mod, but not sure where to get my hands on some shims. It's not like I got spare shocks just hangin' around that I can pillage.

  71. #71
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    FYI...The upgraded Mission Control has a "mushroom stack" and the sleeve has been modified.,,,

    I went ahead and ordered the DH version as well for comparison along with the coil assembly. Should be good times

    It consists of about 5 shims going from widest to shortest from bottom to top.




  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Funny thing, at least on the SA. All of this has really affected the rebound top out. It has absolutely no damping near the top end of the rebound. It appears that fiddling with the HS compression eases this a little, but still much too harsh. I have to add a bit more air as well which makes things rough on the small stuff
    I did the mod last night and got out for a quick ride thismorning. I noticed the rebound was off, but didn't have enough time to put my finger on it.

    The problem is that the small plastic piece (round on one end, hexagonal on the other) was deformed and I'd rather not put it back in like that. How much did that DH damper run?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    I did the mod last night and got out for a quick ride thismorning. I noticed the rebound was off, but didn't have enough time to put my finger on it.

    The problem is that the small plastic piece (round on one end, hexagonal on the other) was deformed and I'd rather not put it back in like that. How much did that DH damper run?
    You should call SRAM and tell them about it. the deformed piece should have had a silver shim behind it? That's the way mine was, anyhow. That ring should keep the plastic from leeching into the ports. I think that would be a factory defect and that's why no oil is moving through those ports. This mod does not due justice to this particular fork, probably makes it worse in a lot of ways. Works better on the coil IMO. However, the new damper is friggin' sweet. You should get this one if SRAM decides to warranty the part.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    You should call SRAM and tell them about it. the deformed piece should have had a silver shim behind it? That's the way mine was, anyhow. That ring should keep the plastic from leeching into the ports. I think that would be a factory defect and that's why no oil is moving through those ports. This mod does not due justice to this particular fork, probably makes it worse in a lot of ways. Works better on the coil IMO. However, the new damper is friggin' sweet. You should get this one if SRAM decides to warranty the part.
    Yeah, it had a shim behind it. When I pulled the "button" out, I saw that it was a bit deformed. I'll give them a call next week.

    Did you get the damper direct from SRAM?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    Yeah, it had a shim behind it. When I pulled the "button" out, I saw that it was a bit deformed. I'll give them a call next week.

    Did you get the damper direct from SRAM?

    No. All warranties must be done through a shop. If you are on good account with a local shop they should be able to handle it for you. Mine was not deformed in the least, but I have only been on the fork for a few weeks. I wasn't sure if that was indeed a shim or by the looks of the yours and the others just a buffer between blow off and the port. SRAM will not send you the new blow off, they don't even have a schematic for the tear down of the MC . No one there knew anything about the individual parts of the MC damper. They will likely just send you the new and improved damper. Well worth the wait if that is the fact.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    No. All warranties must be done through a shop. If you are on good account with a local shop they should be able to handle it for you. Mine was not deformed in the least, but I have only been on the fork for a few weeks. I wasn't sure if that was indeed a shim or by the looks of the yours and the others just a buffer between blow off and the port. SRAM will not send you the new blow off, they don't even have a schematic for the tear down of the MC . No one there knew anything about the individual parts of the MC damper. They will likely just send you the new and improved damper. Well worth the wait if that is the fact.
    Mine has only been on the bike since early September and I haven't had a lot of time for riding lately...

    I'll hit up my local shop when I can, but it seems odd to replace the whole damper when a 5 cent piece is the trouble.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    Mine has only been on the bike since early September and I haven't had a lot of time for riding lately...

    I'll hit up my local shop when I can, but it seems odd to replace the whole damper when a 5 cent piece is the trouble.
    You should have no problems. I asked and the do not even sell the individual parts nor to they even service the MC. They just send out the updated assembly

  78. #78
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    anyone taken apart one of the new 2010 mc dampers and measured the new shims yet? i am curious what sizes are being used for the new damper.

    i've decided to re-shim my lyriks on my freeride bike and am bike. i ordered shims from avalanche (although they can be ordered from racetech and mx-tech). i may do a three shim stack for the freeride bike of 19mm x 0.20 / 20mm x 0.15 / 21mm x 0.10 with atf for oil. this should also add some spring preload, too. for the am bike i may try a 19mm x 0.15 / 20mm x 0.15 with atf for oil.

    we'll see.......

  79. #79
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    Does anybody know where i can get an exploded diagramm of the mc-unit

  80. #80
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    This is about the closest I found: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...control-damper

    It has a couple pics on there and highlights the circuits used during a certain activity (HSC, LSC, etc.).

    Does anyone have a new DH MiCo damper for a Totem? I'm wondering what the size/thickness of all the shims are on those? I hear they are like a pyramid stack unlike the standard/old MiCo.
    Last edited by daverach2478; 01-11-2010 at 09:22 AM.
    I like bacon.

  81. #81
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    Hey, I came across this tutorial, but i cant get the gold piston to unscrew. Theres no special tools required are there?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingloryrider
    Hey, I came across this tutorial, but i cant get the gold piston to unscrew. Theres no special tools required are there?
    Just pull it out, it does not unscrew.

  83. #83
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    Sorry a clear up, 5 post above, the circle gold peice of metal with oil ports on it. Doesn't it unscrew from the mission control assembly so I can get to the shims?

  84. #84
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    Great!

  85. #85
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    kingloryrider, join the club.

    I held the bottom of the MiCO, the golden piece with orifices, with a rag, and I went to the point of removing the gold (from slipping in the rag) out of that piece before quitting. Mine has to be glued or something. Good luck with yours. If you manage to unscrew it, let me know. I might give it another try.
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    i just rebuilt them,with lighteroil.amixof 2.5 and 15, mainly 2.5.

    My enital problems wheres stiction, and snail slow rebound. now the forks obvisouly a bit more lively. I will just have to bring the pump with me everywhere to adjust the air pressure accordingly.

    I heard this somewhere, but i imagine the seals blowing, can you put say 30ml in speed lube to make it more progressive? or like 35ml?

    unscrewing the mission is hopeless for me.

  87. #87
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    Not in the lowers (bath oil). It will just hydrolock without a noticeable change in progressiveness. But you can increase the volume of oil in the damper to achieve more progressiveness without hydrolocking, since that is more or less air tight, unlike the lower. But be prepared for blown seals. I've blown 3 sets of seals in the MiCo without running extra oil. Imagine with excess oil creating pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC to whining spammer
    Don't let the nose of your saddle hit you in the @#!#X on the way out.

  88. #88
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    Hi guys!

    I own a Lyrik 2008 2 Step. It's the IS-Version with Motion control.

    Works good so far, but I would be happy about a bit more HS-compression.

    Anyone any idea?

    Othe thing is, that the fork lost travel, typical problem. When the bike stands on the floor, travel is down at about 150mm.

    I thinking that the 2Step side has no damping in it. What about using 0W40 engine oil? Has much better lubricating.

    Any solutions?

    Thank you

    Reno

  89. #89
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    ive got a '10 totem solo air and i was wondering if i can mod the shim stack. my problem isnt bottoming out, its hardly ever using the full travel, barely ever using the last inch. its not im not riding difficult enough trails. im not using very much air pressure in it either so itd be nice if i could fix it by changing shims.
    thanks
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  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikinggolfer
    ive got a '10 totem solo air and i was wondering if i can mod the shim stack. my problem isnt bottoming out, its hardly ever using the full travel, barely ever using the last inch. its not im not riding difficult enough trails. im not using very much air pressure in it either so itd be nice if i could fix it by changing shims.
    thanks
    Yes you can mod the shim stack to give a softer compression range, but before you do this, make sure that the reason you not getting full travel is because oil is leaking from the Mission Control chamber into the bottom of the fork leg causing hydrolock

  91. #91
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    You can also try decreasing the oil volume in the air spring upper tube by a few ccs.
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  92. #92
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    pinkbike has a great video of removing the floodgate:
    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/technic...-mod-2010.html

    happy modding!

    P

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_M2R
    Yes you can mod the shim stack to give a softer compression range, but before you do this, make sure that the reason you not getting full travel is because oil is leaking from the Mission Control chamber into the bottom of the fork leg causing hydrolock
    EDIT so to check if oils leaking all i have to do is check to make sure oil is in the mission control chamber, right? if it were the case that oil was leaking i wouldnt notice by the lack of oil in the mission control chamber, right? also the mission control adjustments dont seem to do much to the fork so is that also a sign of hydrolock? EDIT
    Last edited by mtnbikinggolfer; 07-29-2010 at 04:48 PM.
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    For all of you having problems unscrewing the golden piston from the damper and still reading:
    Take a 14mm wrench and screw the black jam nut a bit further onto the silver shaft (just a 1/4 turn cw). That will reduce the pressure onto the shims/piston and it should be unscrewed easily. Worked for me on both, MC and MCDH.

    By the way to keep measurements updated:
    the 2010 MC damper has 6 shims in a two stage stack (all 0.1mm, ID 8mm). ODīs from bottom/piston to top: 20 - 20 - 13 - 20 - 17 - 13 mm

    2010 MCDH is the same but has 7 shims: 20 - 20 - 13 - 20 - 20 - 17 - 13 mm
    Last edited by Sceh; 10-05-2010 at 12:17 PM.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sceh
    ...the 2010 MC damper has 6 shims in a two stage stack (all 0.1mm, ID 8mm). ODīs from bottom/piston to top: 20 - 20 - 13 - 20 - 17 - 13 mm

    2010 MCDH is the same but has 7 shims: 20 - 20 - 13 - 20 - 20 - 17 - 13 mm
    Thanks, was going to re-shim my 3 shim '08 totem but didn't know where to start, this looks good.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_M2R
    Yes you can mod the shim stack to give a softer compression range, but before you do this, make sure that the reason you not getting full travel is because oil is leaking from the Mission Control chamber into the bottom of the fork leg causing hydrolock
    How do you fix this? I've thought that this has been the problem with mine for a while, but thought it was just excess fluid hanging about.

    Cheers,

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    Bump

    So, did a service on my forks about 30mins ago, oil measurements/oil weight all correct. But, still feel like crap.

    However, you would expect quite a bit of fluid to come out of the damper side lower section if oil had been leaking from the damper housing into the lower section, but there seemed to be nothing, except from a little bit, which is probably just some 15wt which should be there anyway.

    Has anyone got any ideas what might be going wrong?

    Cheers, Ryan.

  98. #98
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    any ideas on upgrading motion control damper? have bottom out problems too.
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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.n.s
    any ideas on upgrading motion control damper? have bottom out problems too.
    There are 4 ways you can go; air/spring, oil, shim, or have a pro mod your fork.

    You can increase the air pressure or spring rate. If solo air, switch to spring or reduce the air volume in the chamber to cause more progression at the end of stroke.

    Check your oil levels, you maybe low. If spot on maybe go Zokie style and add more oil to your fork to increase progression at the end of stroke.

    What year is your fork? Pre '10 only have 3 shims, newer forks have 6-7. You could try re-shimming your fork.

  100. #100
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    i have 2007 pike 426 coil u-turn. i've already ordered custom progressive spring, but really don't know about re-shimming. Don't want to reassemble damper for now, will see what new spring will do.
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  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.n.s
    i have 2007 pike 426 coil u-turn. i've already ordered custom progressive spring, but really don't know about re-shimming. Don't want to reassemble damper for now, will see what new spring will do.
    The motion control damper in the pike does not have shims, its a type of ported damper

  102. #102
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    Nick_M2R ok, thanks, so spring is my way to go
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  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratt
    Thanks, was going to re-shim my 3 shim '08 totem but didn't know where to start, this looks good.
    Ratt did you end up re-shimming based on the 2010 shim stack? I have a pre 2010 mico damper and want to re shim and that seems like a good starting point, but was unclear if it will fit six shims

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Climber
    Ratt did you end up re-shimming based on the 2010 shim stack? I have a pre 2010 mico damper and want to re shim and that seems like a good starting point, but was unclear if it will fit six shims
    Actually there is at least 3 threads showing when you adjust the HS preload to zero, so plenty of room to add shims.

    I haven't been on my bike much this year, busted collar bone in June, so my memory of before and after is faded. I think the small bump/sharp edge hit was better with the original stack with no floodgate but could have been because the change was so dramatic and the fork was newer. With the '10 stack definitely better control on the medium to big hits but haven't done any bottom out tests yet, I am still leaning into the good shoulder and making simple drops dramatic. Overall I like this stack more but will still play with it, I like a mushy fork in the small stuff.

  105. #105
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    Sorry to hear about the injury, heal up! Thanks for the response.

  106. #106
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    Cool thread...

    Thanks Nick and others for the advice and ideas.

    I've got a bit of a frankenforked early Lyric U-turn coil. About to be running at 170mm. and with a new tapered CSU.

    Whilst I've got it in bits, I'd like to try tuning the damper up a bit better.

    I'm 140lb + kit (call it 155lb all in), running a soft spring on an Uzzi VP

    The HSC and LSC have never felt like they do anything. Floodgate works as advertised when the LSC knob is popped up, but as I understand it, both adjustments should work whilst the knob is down, overall range subject to the floodgate setting.

    Now I would like:-
    Better small bump response (so ditch the floodgate?)
    Less brake dive (more LSC, which to me implies more floodgate... )
    Better bottom out resistance. Not often it happens, but sometimes an unassuming looking hit will kind of catch the fork out and bang it straight onto the bumpstops.

    I'm UK based, so getting more shims is probably not quite as easy as just ordering from MX-tech. I figure if I screw the black jam nut up a bit further (looks like I've got 2 turns left) and the compression piston with it, that should end up preloading the existing shim stack more? Only problem is breaking the damn thing loose. Neither the piston or the jam nut seem prepared to move under "reasonable" force, and i'm a little reluctant to get properly medieval on it's ass in case of damaging it.

    Thank y'all...!

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    I know how it works now.
    Last edited by asw7576; 03-15-2011 at 11:15 PM.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    huh.....using a larger OD but the same thickness shouldn't produce any change especially to bottoming resistance because the shims are all bending at the same rate when stacked on top of each other. If you used a separating shim to build a two stage stack you might see something but even then it would be difficult because the shims are under preload from the HS spring and the secondary stack may be pushed into the initial stack when static.

    I'm guessing if you noticed a difference in bottoming control it's coming from a slight increase in oil level in the damper leg which would give you an increase in spring rate at the end of the stroke.

    Darren
    That not only assumes identical thickness, but also same material for the shims. And the same effects of age of that material etc. And that there is no change in flex in the material due to the 'new' shims having been dry for a while and not soaked like the old. And no effect of breaking in on the old shims versus less on the new...................


    It may be that the shims once soaked for a while and broken in from a bit of flexing will lose some of the benefits their current state is providing. But it is not out of the Q that even if the same thickness, and the same material, performance can change.
    See carbon isomers for deliberately obtuse example.
    Another ad absurdum example would be polystyrene dry, versus soaked in gasolene. In the later case it ceases to exist - flexibility changes greatly.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Edwards
    Only problem is breaking the damn thing loose. Neither the piston or the jam nut seem prepared to move under "reasonable" force, and i'm a little reluctant to get properly medieval on it's ass in case of damaging it.

    Thank y'all...!

    I just went through the same thing with my damper. SRAM used red loctite to ensure the gold piston doesn't unscrew hence the difficulty getting it off.

    What i did was put my 24mm socket on the top of the damper to give some leverage and rotate the black 14mm jam nut clockwise. I just needed a little more force than I was using the hey presto, it loosened and I was able to remove the piston and shims

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    LOL.....Understood, I actually didn't take it that way.

    As for the shims, the thickness increments are 0.1mm, 0.15mm, and 0.2mm so you'd be able to tell the stiffness difference in your fingers without having to measure them. If you can't feel the difference with your fingers, they're probably the same.

    In thinking about this further, another factor maybe the height that you set the jam nut when reassembling the MC unit. Increasing or decreasing the height of the jam nut would change the static height of the HS circuit therefore influencing the damping range that you get as well as the range that the adjusters are effecting. So, if in reassembling your jam nut height was higher than how it came from the factory, you would experience the increased compression force throughout the entire range. As I sit here typing I also just realized that the jam nut height has an effect on the Floodgate range as well.....so many things to consider!



    Darren.
    So I know this post is two years old, But I have been messing with my MC shim stack and was thinking about this thread. The way the damper is set up, I was thinking wider shims may have an effect on the damping characteristics because of the way the HSC adjusment puts pressure on the shim stack. Wouldnt putting wider shims then the pressure plate covering them bend the shims down as the oil pressure starts tp open the HSC stack? I may be way off but in my head it seems like it would have an effect.

  111. #111
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    does anyone knows where we can find these shims on the internet? thanks!

  112. #112
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    Race Tech

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehrhard View Post
    does anyone knows where we can find these shims on the internet? thanks!
    As mentioned earlier in this thread Mxtech sells shims, if you call them they are willing to just drop them in an envelope saving a ton in postage. I caught them at a bad time, their security cert was out of date so my browser wouldn't let me complete the transaction and they weren't answering the phones either. I went with the Avy guys, got killed in postage though.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad72 View Post
    I just went through the same thing with my damper. SRAM used red loctite to ensure the gold piston doesn't unscrew hence the difficulty getting it off.

    What i did was put my 24mm socket on the top of the damper to give some leverage and rotate the black 14mm jam nut clockwise. I just needed a little more force than I was using the hey presto, it loosened and I was able to remove the piston and shims
    I can confirm my DH MoCo piston was red locktited also & had to heat the shaft/piston with a 25W soldering pencil iron. The black jam nut is 13mm that i loosened first, but the real trick after breaking the locktite with heat is using a 10mm on the shaft flats directly above plastic jam nut.

    My original shim stack was 20-20-12.7-20-20-16.5-12.7-9.8

    Now i have 20-20-18-17-16.5-12.7-12.7-9.8

    Will need a few rides & will report back.
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  115. #115
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    How to unscrew the gold piston

    I will try that as well. I'm experiencing the same glued piston problem.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by pieroglif View Post
    I will try that as well. I'm experiencing the same glued piston problem.
    We all had the same problem I can see

    What i did was put my 24mm socket on the top of the damper to give some leverage and rotate the black 14mm jam nut clockwise. I just needed a little more force than I was using the hey presto, it loosened and I was able to remove the piston and shims


    Have a great Christmas

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad72 View Post
    We all had the same problem I can see

    What i did was put my 24mm socket on the top of the damper to give some leverage and rotate the black 14mm jam nut clockwise. I just needed a little more force than I was using the hey presto, it loosened and I was able to remove the piston and shims


    Have a great Christmas
    Brad72,

    I did see your previous reply, and the thing is I secured the gold piston in the vice, and then when I rotated the damper with the 24 socket key the top of the damper (black part) broke loose. Now I have 22 steps of HSC control instead of 15, and yet it does not stop, but rotate freely afterwards. Luckily when I rotate back, it starts clicking, so something changed, but I don't know, if it's good, or bad. Need to check the extra 7 click functionality tomorrow Nevertheless, I have no idea how to remove the gold piston now, and precisely what part I can use and leverage.

    Do you think I can secure the gold piston in vice again and start rotating the black jam nut clockwise? Just to be super clear, do you mean the black jam nut that is hidden underneath the black shaft, and clockwise when you look from the bottom of the damper? Won't I end up putting the spring above the black shaft to its limits? Maybe there is a way to disengage the spring?

    Merry Christmas to you, too, and all other readers of this post!
    Last edited by pieroglif; 12-25-2011 at 03:59 PM. Reason: more precise question

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sceh View Post
    For all of you having problems unscrewing the golden piston from the damper and still reading:
    Take a 14mm wrench and screw the black jam nut a bit further onto the silver shaft (just a 1/4 turn cw). That will reduce the pressure onto the shims/piston and it should be unscrewed easily. Worked for me on both, MC and MCDH.

    By the way to keep measurements updated:
    the 2010 MC damper has 6 shims in a two stage stack (all 0.1mm, ID 8mm). ODīs from bottom/piston to top: 20 - 20 - 13 - 20 - 17 - 13 mm

    2010 MCDH is the same but has 7 shims: 20 - 20 - 13 - 20 - 20 - 17 - 13 mm
    I have a 2008 Lyrik with the floodgate removed. If I am correct, it has 3 shims. Would it be beneficial to increase that to 6 or 7 shims like the new ones? Would that cause problems with space or changing the height of the jam nut?

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWDW View Post
    I have a 2008 Lyrik with the floodgate removed. If I am correct, it has 3 shims. Would it be beneficial to increase that to 6 or 7 shims like the new ones? Would that cause problems with space or changing the height of the jam nut?
    Good question. Anybody?

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWDW View Post
    I have a 2008 Lyrik with the floodgate removed. If I am correct, it has 3 shims. Would it be beneficial to increase that to 6 or 7 shims like the new ones? Depends on what you don't like right now, small bump, square edge, big hit. What do you want to change? If it bobs too much just put the floodgate back in. Would that cause problems with space or changing the height of the jam nut?That jam nut is to help set the HSC knob pre-load and has a lot of thread for that adjustment, you can put about 2 dozen shims in that space.
    .....

  121. #121
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    Thanks for the reply Ratt.

    I have heard what a wonderful upgrade the DH damper is for the fork. I would rather not buy one, but swapping a few shims is no big deal, so I am hoping to get closer to this reportedly great damper.

    I would like to increase small bump compliance without too much sag and better midstroke support.

    I was really hoping someone would say put in x-y-and z and you will ride like Steve Peat, but it is never that simple

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWDW View Post
    I have a 2008 Lyrik with the floodgate removed. If I am correct, it has 3 shims. Would it be beneficial to increase that to 6 or 7 shims like the new ones? Would that cause problems with space or changing the height of the jam nut?
    You are thinking about it the wrong way. As Ratt said, it depends on what you looking to change. It also depends on the thickness of the shims. Shim stiffness is not relative to shim thickness It takes (8) .1mm thick shims stacked on top of each other the equal just (1) .2mm shim and it takes (3.4) .1mm shims to equal just (1) .15mm thick shim. So you can have a 3 shim stack and a 7 shim stack that will perform identical.

    There are other differences as well. The previous damper(with the 3 shims) uses a rebound damper that displaces less oil through the compression damper. When they switched to the newer damper in 2010, the rebound damper shaft became larger and now displaces more oil then before. To help control the larger amount of oil flow, RS had to stiffen up the shim stack by adding more shims.

    Long story short, If you happy with how your fork performs, leave it be. If you have a specific area you are looking to improve, post it and we can try to guide you towards a stack that will get you what you are looking for.

  123. #123
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    Alright, guys. I have an '08 that could use some more high speed compession. I weigh about 190 with gear, and I seem to be in between spring rates. I plan on putting in some heavier oil, but while I have it all apart for a rebuilt, I might as well do some shim work. I have the following shims plus the stock shims:

    two .15x21
    one .20x21
    one .15x22 od

    Would it make more sense to just add a shim or two, replace a shim or two or three, stack different od shims rather than thicker shims, or just adjust the preload nut?

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Alright, guys. I have an '08 that could use some more high speed compession. I weigh about 190 with gear, and I seem to be in between spring rates. I plan on putting in some heavier oil, but while I have it all apart for a rebuilt, I might as well do some shim work. I have the following shims plus the stock shims:

    two .15x21
    one .20x21
    one .15x22 od

    Would it make more sense to just add a shim or two, replace a shim or two or three, stack different od shims rather than thicker shims, or just adjust the preload nut?
    I would skip the heavier oil. That would effect LSC more then HSC and slow down rebound.

    Did you remove your floodgate? If you did, I would run the jam nut so that it is hitting the shaft. I found this gives you the most range of adjustment from external adjuster. If you still have the flood gate installed, having the jam nut to close to the shaft will keep you from being able turn the flood gate on.

    As for the stack itself, What performance gains are you looking for the HSC. Are you bottoming out to much? Blowing through travel on square edge hit? Shim stack just opening to easy in general? The shim stack that you have if a pretty stiff stack to begin with. Adding shim would stiffen up that stack a lot and may make the fork spike harshly.

    What do you run your external adjustments at?

  125. #125
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    I removed the floodgate, so I was going to try heavier oil to add a bit of LSC. I don't like brake dive... When I was running the stiff spring it felt as if there was too much midstroke support. This may be because it was converted from a SoloAir to coil U-turn. It would kind of stick half way into its travel. With the medium spring, it blows through its travel a bit too easily. Not enough support all around. Too much bottom out, but mostly because it feels as if there is little adjustment range in the compression. High and Low. It is definitely not spiking on square edge hits. I'd rather have it spike here and there than lack support.
    Last edited by mountainbiker24; 02-12-2012 at 07:11 PM.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    I removed the floodgate, so I was going to try heavier oil to add a bit of LSC. I don't like brake dive... When I was running the stiff spring it felt as if there was too much midstroke support. This may be because it was converted from a SoloAir to coil U-turn. It would kind of stick half way into its travel. With the medium spring, it blows through its travel a bit too easily. Not enough support all around. Too much bottom out, but mostly because it feels as if there is little adjustment range in the compression. High and Low. It is definitely not spiking on square edge hits. I'd rather have it spike here and there than lack support.
    I would try adding a .15 x 21mm shim then. Maybe buy a few .1mm shims too. That will give you the ability to fine tune everything once you find out what is close. Adding a .2mm shim would probably be too much.

    That said, dont expect the mid stroke support to increase very much, The shim stack will help with bottom out but mid stroke support is mostly controlled by spring rate and not damping.

    Also know that the design of the mission control damper is not the greatest because of LSC/HSC cross over, meaning that the amount of LSC you run directly contributes to the amount of HSC you get. If you run your LSC wide open and your HSC full hard, You will get very little HSC because even on big hits, the LSC port will be able to handle most of the oil flow. I have found that its best to run your LSC around a little less then half way open(about 7 clicks from closed). or less. Anything more takes to much oil flow away from the HSC circuit.

    Hope that helps!

  127. #127
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    Thanks for the guidance! I'll be doing some experimenting in a few days.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Thanks for the guidance! I'll be doing some experimenting in a few days.
    No problem. Post your findings, Others will find the information useful.

  129. #129
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    Well, I made some adjustments to my 2008 Lyrik U-turn. I didn't make one change at a time like I probably should have, but I didn't really want to take the damper apart again if I didn't have to, so I just changed a bunch of things and once and tried it out. Fortunately for me, everything worked out perfectly! I weigh about 185-190 with gear and am running a medium (red) spring. I notice a much bigger difference in both high and low-speed adjustments, with improved control during braking, midsize and larger hits. I only bottomed the fork on a 4 foot to flat drop, and it wasn't harsh. I landed a bit heavier on the front to get it to bottom. Perfect for the trails I ride.

    Here's what I did:

    1) Rebuilt fork with new seals. Had to do it, and it seemed like a great time to mod the damper a bit.
    2) Took out the 3 stock shims and replaced them with one 22x.15mm, two 21x.15mm, and one of the stock shims on top (4 shims total rather than the stock 3).
    3) Threaded the preload nut so that all of the slack was taken out of the spring in the Mission Control. There was a lot of slack, and it seemed like it wasted quite a bit of the adjustment range.
    4) Put in 112 mL of 10 weight suspension fluid in the damper side and 12 mL of 15 weight fluid in the lowers.

    So happy that I did this!

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Well, I made some adjustments to my 2008 Lyrik U-turn. I didn't make one change at a time like I probably should have, but I didn't really want to take the damper apart again if I didn't have to, so I just changed a bunch of things and once and tried it out. Fortunately for me, everything worked out perfectly! I weigh about 185-190 with gear and am running a medium (red) spring. I notice a much bigger difference in both high and low-speed adjustments, with improved control during braking, midsize and larger hits. I only bottomed the fork on a 4 foot to flat drop, and it wasn't harsh. I landed a bit heavier on the front to get it to bottom. Perfect for the trails I ride.

    Here's what I did:

    1) Rebuilt fork with new seals. Had to do it, and it seemed like a great time to mod the damper a bit.
    2) Took out the 3 stock shims and replaced them with one 22x.15mm, two 21x.15mm, and one of the stock shims on top (4 shims total rather than the stock 3).
    3) Threaded the preload nut so that all of the slack was taken out of the spring in the Mission Control. There was a lot of slack, and it seemed like it wasted quite a bit of the adjustment range.
    4) Put in 112 mL of 10 weight suspension fluid in the damper side and 12 mL of 15 weight fluid in the lowers.

    So happy that I did this!
    Good information. I agree 1000% about the jam nut. The spring has way to much slack in stock form(both new and old dampers).

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    Could you please clarify to me what you did with the jam nut, starting from what the jam nut is? I understand it's a nut underneath the shaft, the one that is just above the gold piston, right? What did you do with it? Did you screw it towards the top of the damper or towards the golden piston? Or maybe I am taking it completely wrong? Thanks in advance!

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by pieroglif View Post
    Could you please clarify to me what you did with the jam nut, starting from what the jam nut is? I understand it's a nut underneath the shaft, the one that is just above the gold piston, right? What did you do with it? Did you screw it towards the top of the damper or towards the golden piston? Or maybe I am taking it completely wrong? Thanks in advance!
    It's the black nut that you snug up against the gold piston. I threaded it it towards the top cap, away from the gold piston to remove all of the play in the spring, then tightened it up with the piston. With the stock setting, the spring would just flop around a few mm.

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    Makes sense. I was also wondering where to set it for best results, and now I know Thanks a lot!

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    Is it possible to tune the system with no external shimz. For example just remove one of the three shimz? The long black tube through the spring pressure on the shim stack, I think they shouldn`t bend.
    I am not satisfied with the work on small bumps. Rather fork does not want to work for 1-3cm bumps, but with more bigger is perfect.

    If I change the oil on a lighter 5 >> 2.5, the threshold force on the shims to the opening of the channel will remain the same, just the oil will flow faster.
    Last edited by AndRiEL; 02-29-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndRiEL View Post
    Is it possible to tune the system with no external shimz. For example just remove one of the three shimz? The long black tube through the spring pressure on the shim stack, I think they shouldn`t bend.
    I am not satisfied with the work on small bumps. Rather fork does not want to work for 1-3cm bumps, but with more bigger is perfect.

    If I change the oil on a lighter 5 >> 2.5, the threshold force on the shims to the opening of the channel will remain the same, just the oil will flow faster.

    1-3cm bumps are more of a LSC even then a HSC event. Its likely that your lack of small bump compliance is due to a lack of splash oil on the bushings/seak or the fork being over sprung. Its probably time for a reubuild.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    1-3cm bumps are more of a LSC even then a HSC event. Its likely that your lack of small bump compliance is due to a lack of splash oil on the bushings/seak or the fork being over sprung. Its probably time for a reubuild.
    No, fork is almost new, just rebuilt (was investigated inner construction ). TF2 weldtite grease on bushings/seals, new Liqui Moly oil 5W, motorex in lowers.
    The work smoothness is great!!!! (previous fork was a shiver, so i know what to compare), but the working on smallest fast bumps (emm Non working i mean) saddens me.

    All settings LS and HS are set to zero, no compression through testing
    BTW, Flood gate is removed also

  137. #137
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    Ufffff... futher testing in +10-15'C shows a true situation. The fork is almost excellent, still ignoring smallest bumps like asphalt cracks, but in real riding (such as stairs... yeah, town riding) - its PERFECT.
    I`ll test it with 2.5w... but even 5 now is ok

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    Hi there,

    I am also a happy owner of a modded Lyrik, but one thing worries me now - after a few rides on the modded fork the spring that pushes the black shaft came loose. Before it was really hard to see the jam nut, and now it's so easy a 7-year old kid could do it. The shim stack I have is only a 0.1 mm thicker, so this can't be it. Has any of you encountered this before? What should I do to bring the force back to the spring?

  139. #139
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    It sounds like the nut might have backed off on you a little bit. Maybe put a drop of locktite on there.

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    I checked the damper again yesterday and all seems to be ok, as it would fix itself. mountainbiker24, you are probably right and I will see to this again when the situation repeats.

    BTW, where does the oil that leaks from the air chamber comes from? I am losing a bit of it every time I lower the pressure...

  141. #141
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    New question here. with my '09 Totem coil

    Thank you, everyone (original poster & those who chimed in since), for this very helpful thread.

    I'm 165lbs with gear, and I have '09 Totem coil with "medium" spring (for 160~180lbs range, or "blue" per the old-color standards) and the old Mission Control (w/ FloodGate removed). With both HS & LS fully open (my sag is merely 17%), its bottom-out is perfect for me on big stuff, while small-bump is pretty poor. So, now I'm thinking of going down to a "soft" spring (for 140~160lbs range) for better small-bump, while doing some of these modifications for bottom-out (so not to blow thru travel too easily, as I've read/heard RS spring rates have big gaps).

    So, having read all thru here, I think this is the re-cap of the checklist, and I have 2 questions...
    "4 ways you can go; (a) air/spring, (b) oil, (c) shim, or (d) have a pro mod your fork"
    (a) I'll go down to a 'soft' spring (from 'med').
    (b) I'll stick to spec'ed damper oil weight (per "skip the heavier oil. That would effect LSC more then HSC and slow down rebound"), but may increase damper oil volume. (Also, I'll try Enduro-recommended 5W-40 as splash oil in the lowers.)
    (c) I don't have any shims (also noting that "shim stack will help with bottom out but mid stroke support is mostly controlled by spring rate and not damping").
    (d) no Totem at PUSH (& Avalanche is too $$$), so I may send it to SRAM for a new Mission Control during off-season.

    QUESTION: As for (b), I've read the online manuals for right/upper (damper) oil volume, and '09 manual says "137ml/5wt", while '11 manual says "203ml/5wt". Does that mean that I can also pour in up-to 203ml in my '09 while aiming for more bottom purpose? For example, my friend's '09 Totem coil came back from SRAM with new '12 Mission Control. In his case, will he pour in 137ml or 203ml? The damper changed, but I don't think the chamber holding it (& oil) changed; hence my asking.

    And I'll plan on doing two more things...

    (e) I'll set LSC accordingly per that "the design of the mission control damper is not the greatest because of LSC/HSC cross over, meaning that the amount of LSC you run directly contributes to the amount of HSC you get. If you run your LSC wide open and your HSC full hard, You will get very little HSC because even on big hits, the LSC port will be able to handle most of the oil flow. I have found that its best to run your LSC around a little less then half way open(about 7 clicks from closed). or less. Anything more takes to much oil flow away from the HSC circuit."

    (f) I'll tinker with the 'jam nut' per that "just the fact that you are preloading the HS by 50% more than before" by moving up "the black nut that you snug up against the gold piston. I threaded it it towards the top cap, away from the gold piston to remove all of the play in the spring, then tightened it up with the piston. With the stock setting, the spring would just flop around a few mm."

    QUESTION: As for (f), just to be sure, the "black nut" or "preload nut" or "jam nut" that you refer to is the little "black plate" described by the original poster, correct? And it's to take the slack out of the main spring that's right underneath the damper cap (not the thin spring underneath the gold piston), correct? So how much should I preload HS with this nut? Just enough to take out the few-mm of slack only, or significantly more?



    I know this got really long, but thanks much in advance for your further feedback on this,
    - PiroChu
    Last edited by PiroChu; 07-13-2012 at 10:28 AM.
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  142. #142
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    Just finished moving up the jam nut on my (older-generation) Mission Control damper (although no shim changes for me), while trying out a softer spring...
    the black nut that you snug up against the gold piston. I threaded it it towards the top cap, away from the gold piston to remove all of the play in the spring, then tightened it up with the piston. With the stock setting, the spring would just flop around a few mm.
    To my (pleasant?) surprise, mine wasn't really "flopping around" per se, but there was definitely a light "dead spot" (about 4-click worth or so). As somebody noted, initially I saw about 3 threads exposed, and I ended up with about half of that. Putting back all together, I'm still left with the same number of clicks for both HSC (x12) & LSC (x16).

    I also set my LSC accordingly as below...
    best to run your LSC around a little less then half way open(about 7 clicks from closed). or less. Anything more takes to much oil flow away from the HSC circuit.
    I'll go for a test ride tomorrow and report back...
    Last edited by PiroChu; 07-13-2012 at 11:19 PM.
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  143. #143
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    success!

    Quote Originally Posted by PiroChu View Post
    I'll go for a test ride tomorrow and report back...
    Just to report back from Saturday test ride (All-Ntn / mini-FR) that the following made a fantastic result on my '09 Totem for my 165lbs (w/ gear) weight.

    Here's what I did...
    (a) put the "140~160lbs-rated" soft spring (instead of the "160~180lbs-rated" medium)
    (b) removed FloodGate
    (c) moved up the jam nut on Mission Control damper (still same shims config)
    (d) Maxima 5wt (137ml) for damper (default weight/volume)
    (e) Amsoil 5W-40 full-synthetic motor oil (20ml/each) for lower legs (default volume)
    (f) set LSC at least 9 (of 16) clicks in (from open), as recommended above (I ended up with 10 clicks in)
    (g) set HSC at 4 (of 12) clicks in (from open), as recommended by RockShox, still more clicks left for bigger stuff

    Time-wise, I also had to do everything all at one (instead of one change at a time incrementally), so I can't exactly tell which did what, but (a) & (c) combo is the main thing. Anyway, the whole package yielded great success!

    I'll go for another test ride (bigger FR stuff) on Wed, but I already have a good feeling about it (& I still have HSC clicks left to use).

    I was so close to picking up an used Fox 36 VAN RC2 180mm, but I think I'll stick to my 'reborn' Totem. Thanks again for all the helpful info posted here!
    - PiroChu
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  144. #144
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    I have a 2011 Lyrik R coil U turn 160mm and am hoping to do this tuning but it looks like I need to upgrade my basic rebound adjustment damper to the mission control damper. Which and where would be one to buy? It would be great to order shims at the same time too. Thanks

  145. #145
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    Gave this a go last night. Piston was on there good, heated with soldering iron and gas cooker. Gripped piston wrapped in inner tube with pipe wrench, i however crushed one of the return ports a little bit, however managed to manipulate things back into shape and retain the glide ring sealing, so be careful people.

    Anyway, my damper is a rc2l 2012, floodgate removed. Found that the shim stack did not have enough low speed resistance and the low speed adjuster has little effect on dive, the shim stack was being overridden too easily. Cranked up the high speed to combat this which resulted in harshness on high speed rough.

    I have gone for a straight forward pyramid stack with the stock shims. 20-20-20-16.5-12.7-12.7-9.8.

    I believe removing the crossover shim will result in more low speed damping as will the extra 20 at the beginning of the stack. I have no idea what the mid high speed result will be, i have a feeling less.

    This is my first time doing shim stack experimenting so have a lot to learn and will no doubt have many incorrect ideas.

    I'll report back on how this works out.

  146. #146
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    Great info, need to keep this thread in my bookmarks . . .

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeanFBM View Post
    Gave this a go last night. Piston was on there good, heated with soldering iron and gas cooker. Gripped piston wrapped in inner tube with pipe wrench, i however crushed one of the return ports a little bit, however managed to manipulate things back into shape and retain the glide ring sealing, so be careful people.

    Anyway, my damper is a rc2l 2012, floodgate removed. Found that the shim stack did not have enough low speed resistance and the low speed adjuster has little effect on dive, the shim stack was being overridden too easily. Cranked up the high speed to combat this which resulted in harshness on high speed rough.

    I have gone for a straight forward pyramid stack with the stock shims. 20-20-20-16.5-12.7-12.7-9.8.

    I believe removing the crossover shim will result in more low speed damping as will the extra 20 at the beginning of the stack. I have no idea what the mid high speed result will be, i have a feeling less.

    This is my first time doing shim stack experimenting so have a lot to learn and will no doubt have many incorrect ideas.

    I'll report back on how this works out.
    I have the same damper as you do (I think; MiCo DH 2012 w/out floodgate).
    What was the original shim stack?

    Anyway, I am a lightweight rider (56kg fully loaded) and I am looking to improve small bump sensitivity. Tried lowering psi (currently on 35 psi) and played the rebound; even tried full-open HSC and LSC to no avail. Maybe this shim stack mod might help?

    Oh my, tried removing the piston to no avail. If looking at the piston from below, does it turn clockwise or anti-clockwise to undone it?
    Last edited by Cyphereza; 02-13-2013 at 06:20 PM.

  148. #148
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    I've managed to undone the piston. It was a pain in the a**. Anyway, from the standard Piston-20-20-13-20-17-13-10-Top, I have changed it to a tapered stack Piston-20-20-20-17-13-13-10-Top. Will report on how it feels later.

  149. #149
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    Ive also got a 2010 damper to which is more than likely loc tited on. I can get 15mm crescent wrench underneath the piston and onto the jam nut. But I really dont want to ham fist this and since my 24mm socket is slipping (11 point) I kinda dont want to continue without any suggestions. I have a heat gun to which I can point at the damper and thus get the loc tite off, I assume this will not damage any of the parts? After heating, i assume its just simply twist the piston counterclockwise and it should come off without any issues.
    Lean back, Hit both brakes, And ask yourself, Do you feel lucky today?

  150. #150
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    Heating it didnt seem to work too well... Anyone have any tips?

    Edit: I got it to work. Im not sure if either the "jam nut" or the piston was loc tited on, because when I removed it, there was no residue of red loctite.

    I managed to remove it with the socket on one end with a cresent wrench on the jam nut, backed it up [towards top (threaded)] side of the damper, and the piston unscrewed right off.
    Last edited by Cata1yst; 02-22-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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  151. #151
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    New question here.

    This mod has been awesome on my '09 MiCo damper, but it finally died (RIP). So, a newer-generation ('12~) MiCo damper (Mft Part# 11.4015.544.180) is on its way this week. Since I see some of you on this thread have gone with the newer MiCo in the same-ol' chassis, I have a question about the oil volume.

    Per Totem tech manuals, it's 137ml/older vs 203ml/newer in the MiCo side. Which should I follow?

    My main concern is whether this oil-volume difference is all attributed to the newer compression damper only, or does it take into consideration the accompanying newer rebound damper as well (although I don't even know if a rebound damper has also changed over the years)?

    Since I'll have a "newer compression damper + old rebound damper" combo, I just wanted to make sure I do this right. (Too little oil = no compression. Too much = hydrolock.)

    Thanks for your feedback in advance,
    - PiroChu
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  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiroChu View Post
    This mod has been awesome on my '09 MiCo damper, but it finally died (RIP). So, a newer-generation ('12~) MiCo damper (Mft Part# 11.4015.544.180) is on its way this week. Since I see some of you on this thread have gone with the newer MiCo in the same-ol' chassis, I have a question about the oil volume.

    Per Totem tech manuals, it's 137ml/older vs 203ml/newer in the MiCo side. Which should I follow?

    My main concern is whether this oil-volume difference is all attributed to the newer compression damper only, or does it take into consideration the accompanying newer rebound damper as well (although I don't even know if a rebound damper has also changed over the years)?

    Since I'll have a "newer compression damper + old rebound damper" combo, I just wanted to make sure I do this right. (Too little oil = no compression. Too much = hydrolock.)

    Thanks for your feedback in advance,
    - PiroChu

    When they updated the damper design in 2010, they redesigned the compression AND rebound damper. The 09 and previous rebound damper has a smaller damper rod and displaces less oil. It is also in a sleeve that allowed for the use of less oil.

    Since the older design displaces less oil, and compression dampers use the displaced oil to work, you can not use a 09 rebound damper with a 2010+ compression damper without it feeling like poo. You're going to have to upgrade rebound damper as well.

  153. #153
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    New question here. damper tube/sleeve

    Thanks, mullen119, for your reply to my Q (& sorry for my late reply).

    So, I managed to source a older-generation MiCo compression damper from a friend's old Totem, did the same above-mentioned mod's to it, and I've been back in biz, whoohoo!

    RockShox/SRAM rep told me that I can't fix my leaky '09 MiCo (even with the service kit containing a bunch of O-rings and glide rings), once it's leaking from the top of FloodGate knob area - bummer. I guess I'll keep it for parts (knobs, etc).

    By the way, if/when this MiCo compression damper dies and I need to pick up newer-generation guts inside my older-generation chassis in the future, do I need to also replace the "MiCo damper tube" (along with both the compression & rebound dampers)? The reason I ask is that "Mico damper tube" is only noted as "07-09" on BTI website: BTI | Suspension Fork Service Parts from Rock Shox

    item # year model description
    RS-3816 2007-2013 Totem MiCo-DH (NR) damper
    Name:  rs3816.jpg
Views: 2008
Size:  23.8 KB
    RS-3828 2010-2012 Totem MiCo-DH rebound damper
    Name:  rs3828.jpg
Views: 1732
Size:  17.1 KB
    RS-3939 2007-2009 Totem damper tube/sleeve
    Name:  rs3939.jpg
Views: 1524
Size:  20.7 KB

    Thanks again for your info in advance,
    - PiroChu

  154. #154
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    The tube is not used in the new version. The new style rebound damper takes up the whole leg.

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiroChu View Post
    ....once it's leaking from the top of FloodGate knob area - bummer. I guess I'll keep it for parts (knobs, etc)....
    My '08 started to leak there from the get go. Rockshox sent me one with tighter tolerances in '09 and it was tight. The knobs were so difficult to turn on the fly I repaired and went back to the old dampener. On mine the oring on the low speed needle would go bad. If you remove the LS clicky ball the oring can be replaced in a few minutes without removing the dampener. If you ride a lot the fix lasts about 2 months. I am not using the correct oring (just one out of a harborfreight kit). i think if you go to the right size but thicker or a quad or a higher quality oring it might last longer.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The tube is not used in the new version. The new style rebound damper takes up the whole leg.
    In which year they ditched that damper tube/sleeve? I have 2010 Totem with MiCo DH -damper and that uses damper tube/sleeve.

  157. #157
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    Hey Guys,

    Looking for a little tuning guidance.

    I have a 2012 Lyrik RC2DH Solo Air. Its on an AM bike that I just use for AM / trail riding. So it never sees FR or any type of DH use.

    I find I never hit the last inch or so of travel and the small to med bump compliance is a bit harsh for my tastes. I run the HSC backed all the way off, and the LSC about 4-6 clicks in. I run about 5-7 psi LESS than the RS recomended low range for the spring.

    So, since the MiCo compression damper is so easy to remove and apparently the biggest difficulty I will have is removing the gold compression pistion from the unit, I think some shim tuning is in order. Can the tuning pros here help me out in what I should change the shim stack to? Again, the main thing I'm looking for is LESS HSC and LESS progresivity / bottom out resistance. Im in SoCal riding mostly really rocky trails, so I want a softer ride and the ability to use all my travel without running super low presseure and compromising the rest of the ride.

    Thanks Guys!

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenseMack10 View Post
    Can the tuning pros here help me out in what I should change the shim stack to?
    I'm not a tuning pro at all, but found this info online today...
    To The Point - Shim Stacks - Pinkbike
    At least it was a good read for me.
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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenseMack10 View Post
    Hey Guys,

    Looking for a little tuning guidance.

    Thanks Guys!
    Try running a straight pyramid, 20-20-20-17-17-13-13. My hubby did this on his Lyrik and it works great in the rough stuff and has yet to bottom. Good luck.

    (not exactly sure what your stock shims are, but just run them biggest to smallest)

  160. #160
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    Finally got around to doing this mod, and holy crap what a difference.
    I'm on a 2012 RC2DH coil.
    I weight 200lbs and run the medium spring, which may seem too light, but I rarely bottom this thing, until now.
    I've never been super satisfied with small bump feel, so I tweaked the stack to be (bottom)20-20-13-13-20-20-17-17. Now it eats up the small bumps and I am easily using full travel. Time to put the firm spring in and give it a go.

  161. #161
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    Tune Your Mission Control High Speed Shim Stack: How To Guide: Pics

    Hey d-bug did you just rearrange you your existing stack or buy

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    Hi, anybody knows where to buy the shims? Thanks

  163. #163
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  164. #164
    aka dan51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sallen4520 View Post
    Hey d-bug did you just rearrange you your existing stack or buy
    Sorry for the late response. I just rearranged.

  165. #165
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    Tune Your Mission Control High Speed Shim Stack: How To Guide: Pics

    Sweet thanks

  166. #166
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    Finally did this mod to my '12 Lyrik over the weekend. Went with a mushroom stack. Incredible how different the fork behaves now. Mine didn't come with the same shims as some of the others have posted. Mine came with 4 20's, 1 17, 2 13's, and the 10 which was stuck/hiding against the black lock nut. Still need to go to the bike park to see how it handles the gnarly square edge hits all day long, but on my local trails it seems to be greatly improved. Glad I finally took mine apart because I was so ready to ditch this fork for a Vengeance or a Durolux.

  167. #167
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    I have removed my totem damper, but the piston appears frozen on the shaft. This one has the piston with thread integrated, screws onto the shaft. I have plenty of tools, tried different ideas to unscrew it, but no luck.

    Any ideas how to unthread this without destroying the piston itself? It needs to remain smooth on the OD.
    Michael
    old guy

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterp2 View Post
    I have removed my totem damper, but the piston appears frozen on the shaft. This one haon the piston with thread integrated, screws onto the shaft. I have plenty of tools, tried different ideas to unscrew it, but no luck.

    Any ideas how to unthread this without destroying the piston itself? It needs to remain smooth on the OD.
    assuming you have the adjuster knobs off.. the way i did mine was, i grabbed a 24mm socket wrench and a 13mm wrench. pulled up on the spring loaded sleeve that preloads the shims on top of the piston, placed the 13mm wrench on the thin black lock nut thing, placed the 24mm socket wrench on the top of the damper, and loosened the nut until the piston broke free on it's own. after you re-assemble, you will notice that you can't move the HSC knob, it's locked. if you have soft grip pliers that will work fine, but i grabbed a towel and wrapped the HSC knob and took some channel lock pliers and turned the HSC knob clockwise to free it up again. hope this helps.

  169. #169
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    GOOD TIP. Thank you
    Michael
    old guy

  170. #170
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    I put (2) 20mm shims .20mm thick (equivalent to 20 of the stock .10 shims) in a pyramid configuration, and there is only a slight improvement. I went full closed on both hsc and lsc knobs, full preload....

    The piston is completely covered in oil, an obvious effort required to sink it, but it was before also. So I am lost as to how others are seeing the shim stack effort as significantly worthwhile. Noteworthy to notice like everyone else, the lsc screw does not close off flow completely to that circuit. It is close to blocked off, but not quite. I am tempted to block oil access to the center hole to see if that is my limitation.
    Michael
    old guy

  171. #171
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    Worth mentioning:

    I made the mistake of re-installing without the piston glide ring, and noticed a large difference, damping lost without it.

    As an engineer, I can see where the TOLERANCES OF THE GUIDE RING, are going to make a big difference in the effectiveness of the shim mods, ESPECIALLY if using recommended thinner oil.
    Michael
    old guy

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