Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm

    Replacing a 160mm fork to get nearly 180mm of travel would (almost) not change the bike's geometry?! Did I get that right?

    Fox 36 160mm (29) axle-to-crown: 567mm (+/- 5mm)
    RS Lyric 160mm (29) axle-to-crown: 571mm
    TP Shout 178mm (29) axle-to-crown:
    580mm

    On 29Ē and 27.5+ bikes, ​Shout replaces​ 160-180mm telescopic forks

    On 27.5Ē bikes Shout replaces 160-170mm telescopic forks.
    Source: https://m.pinkbike.com/news/first-lo...kage-fork.html

  2. #2
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    The axle path is curved. It moves 178mm along the arc but is linearly equivalent to the 160mm telescoping designs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    The axle path is curved. It moves 178mm along the arc but is linearly equivalent to the 160mm telescoping designs.
    Hmmm OK! So it means "their" 178mm doesnít increase the travel compared to a "regular" 160mm?! Sorry if it sounds dumb but I just want to make sure I understand

  4. #4
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    I took a short ride on the shorter travel Trust fork at Outerbike in CB. The primary takeaway was how incredibly direct and precise the steering was with this fork. You don't even realize how much side to side precision you lose with a telescopic fork, even a "stiff" one, like a Fox 36. It was like riding a rigid fork as far as precision and turning feel.

    I didn't have time to mess with preload/damping settings, so I'll not comment on those, other than to say the bottom out seemed to ramp really quickly.

    It certainly is an intriguing design. Given the abuse a fork takes, I'm not sure I like the idea of carbon. For me to feel safe, I'd have to wipe it down and closely inspect it every time I rode.

    Here is an interesting take on carbon (road) forks and damage:

    https://www.velonews.com/2019/09/bik...p-short_500262

  5. #5
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    I think this technology is the future, but I worry about durability.

    Someone needs to be racing this thing on the enduro circuit.

    Question: Can the travel (A-C) be adjusted?

    A-C Fox 36 27.5 (160mm, 170mm, 180mm) 550mm, 560mm, 570mm

    So a 580mm A-C for a 180mm fork is still pretty tall if you run a 180mm 29er, but damn, for a 160mm 27.5 your talking 1.5" increase in A-C, total chopper!!

    So yeah, this ain't gonna work unless there's a way to adjust the ride height/travel.
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  6. #6
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    I really have a hard time seeing myself on that fork! It would need to be mind blowing compared to what we have now.


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I think this technology is the future, but I worry about durability.

    Someone needs to be racing this thing on the enduro circuit.

    Question: Can the travel (A-C) be adjusted?

    A-C Fox 36 27.5 (160mm, 170mm, 180mm) 550mm, 560mm, 570mm

    So a 580mm A-C for a 180mm fork is still pretty tall if you run a 180mm 29er, but damn, for a 160mm 27.5 your talking 1.5" increase in A-C, total chopper!!

    So yeah, this ain't gonna work unless there's a way to adjust the ride height/travel.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Question: Can the travel (A-C) be adjusted?
    i REALLY doubt it. Lowering it would put it in a different spot in the axle path.
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  9. #9
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    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm

    How can they say this???

    On 29Ē and 27.5+ bikes, ​Shout replaces​ 160-180mm telescopic forks
    Itís fairly important to know if it will "feel" like a 160/170/180! From both a geometry and a travel point of view.

    Letís say your bike is made for a 160mm fork. Cool!

    You decide to over-Fork it and put a 170mm on it. Still cool, but now you know youíve reached the limit of whatís "acceptable" if you want to keep the bike's geometry close to what it was. (and not loose the front in corners, raise the BB too much, etc ...)

    And if you do that you know pretty much what to expect. Right?!

    Now if you fit the "Shout" to your bike, what happens?

    A) - You get 180mm of travel and almost no change to the geometry?

    B) - You get 180mm of travel but it will drastically change the bike geometry?

    C) - It depends?

    D) - None of the above

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    How can they say this???



    Itís fairly important to know if it will "feel" like a 160/170/180! From both a geometry and a travel point of view.

    Letís say your bike is made for a 160mm fork. Cool!

    You decide to over-Fork it and put a 170mm on it. Still cool, but now you know youíve reached the limit of whatís "acceptable" if you want to keep the bike's geometry close to what it was. (and not loose the front in corners, raise the BB too much, etc ...)

    And if you do that you know pretty much what to expect. Right?!

    Now if you fit the "Shout" to your bike, what happens?

    A) - You get 180mm of travel and almost no change to the geometry?

    B) - You get 180mm of travel but it will drastically change the bike geometry?

    C) - It depends?

    D) - None of the above
    I think that the geometry comparison is a bit of a red herring given what I've read in other places about Trust forks. It is so different in how it deals with bumps/braking, that geometry is going to feel notably different in corners as you aren't going to be compressing the fork and changing the geo, so direct comparisons of forks of similar length might not make sense.

    For bottom brackets comparisons, you can check axle to crown measurements. If I remember right, it's between the 170 and 180 Fox 36 29er forks in that, so if you put it on a bike meant for a 160mm fork at most, you might get some undesirable raising of the bottom bracket. Though for my riding, I'd rarely be that unhappy with a few mm more bb height, esp. as many current bikes are built with flip chips you can use to compensate.

  11. #11
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    You have to define "travel". Travel of telescopic forks is defined in the context of how much travel along a linear path the axle makes as the lowers slide along the uppers. The path that the front axle travels on a Trust fork is not linear, it is back as well as up. The axle may travel 170mm, but the effect on the geometry will be different than what happens when the axle travels 170mm linearly as with a telescopic fork.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    I really have a hard time seeing myself on that fork! It would need to be mind blowing compared to what we have now.

    I can't buy a fork that makes me want to divert my eyes away from my bike, no matter how well it performs.

  13. #13
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    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    You have to define "travel". Travel of telescopic forks is defined in the context of how much travel along a linear path the axle makes as the lowers slide along the uppers. The path that the front axle travels on a Trust fork is not linear, it is back as well as up. The axle may travel 170mm, but the effect on the geometry will be different than what happens when the axle travels 170mm linearly as with a telescopic fork.
    If we take a rear shock. (Because itís a better example than a fork with a 1:1 ratio)

    The eye to eye length = bike geometry
    Stroke + linkage = travel

    The same shock can for example deliver 130mm or 140mm ędepending on the linkageĽ

    But once you know the (linkage ratio) you accurately know how much travel youíll get.

    SO! Why say the fork has 178mm of travel? Because no matter the bike, the fork and itís linkage design (ratio) are made to deliver that amount of travel (on their own). There is no variables here . I donít see or donít understand why it would NOT deliver 178mm of travel.

    Yes it does not follow a straight line but thatís still 178mm that you have to push against on obstacle ... slowly decreasing the speed/force of the impact.No???

    OK the dynamic experience/feel might be different etc etc ... but I just want to make sure I get that "travel" part right before going any further
    Last edited by digev; 09-04-2019 at 11:01 PM.

  14. #14
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    Because the effective change in axle to crown through the cycle is less than 178mm because the travel path is not straight.

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  15. #15
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    Hang on.

    Is this one length fork for 27 and 29" or do they have two different leg sets?
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Hang on.

    Is this one length fork for 27 and 29" or do they have two different leg sets?
    It appears to be one fork to rule them all, 27.5 and 29, 160-18 travel.

    What really strikes me as being significantly different from a telescoping fork is that the front end is going to travel differently "vertically" than it would with a telescoping fork, no idea if it drops 160mm when travelling 160mm or if this is a virtual 160mm that takes into account a constant axle path.

    Since all FS bikes are built around a telescoping fork, how does this affect designs moving forward? Do I need a bike built around this fork or does the fork somehow accommodate the frame designs currently being built around a telescoping fork?

    I could see the advantages with a hardtail, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the front and rear suspension are going to work in tandem... I seem to remember this being a critique of the short travel version.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    If we take a rear shock. (Because itís a better example than a fork with a 1:1 ratio)

    The eye to eye length = bike geometry
    Stroke + linkage = travel

    The same shock can for example deliver 130mm or 140mm ędepending on the linkageĽ
    This ^ makes sense, thanks.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    It appears to be one fork to rule them all, 27.5 and 29, 160-18 travel.

    What really strikes me as being significantly different from a telescoping fork is that the front end is going to travel differently "vertically" than it would with a telescoping fork, no idea if it drops 160mm when travelling 160mm or if this is a virtual 160mm that takes into account a constant axle path.

    Since all FS bikes are built around a telescoping fork, how does this affect designs moving forward? Do I need a bike built around this fork or does the fork somehow accommodate the frame designs currently being built around a telescoping fork?

    I could see the advantages with a hardtail, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the front and rear suspension are going to work in tandem... I seem to remember this being a critique of the short travel version.
    I'm pretty sure that's the point, but I guess the answer lies in how different the effective axle to crown travel is vs. the actual path the wheel travels.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I can't buy a fork that makes me want to divert my eyes away from my bike, no matter how well it performs.
    reminds me of this:


    The Bike rumor review posted today notes that it does do things unimaginably better than a telescopic fork, though he does not mention braking performance or precision. Lotsa scratch for something that might be better than a telescopic fork.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Hang on.

    Is this one length fork for 27 and 29" or do they have two different leg sets?

    I think you know the answer you just can't (or don't want to) believe it.

  21. #21
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    Same fork no matter the wheel size, same fork no matter the travel 160/170/180 ... WTF?! Bike Medias need to come up with better explanations rather than just re-publish the press release! Have they not asked these questions?

    Because if you tell me you can get 180mm of travel instead of 160mm and nearly keep the same axle-to-crown and it does not impact the geometry ... well, thatís pretty impressive! Unless of course I totally missed the point ...

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    What does "Contour" travel mean?

    With 178mm of contour travel, Shout comes with unparalleled traction, stability, bla-bla-bla...

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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    What does "Contour" travel mean?
    Best guess is that the axle travels 178mm along its curved path, but the axle to crown changes less than that. So you get 178mm of wheel travel but your axle to crown only changes like it's a... idk 160mm fork?

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    Sounds right!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by opekone View Post
    Best guess is that the axle travels 178mm along its curved path, but the axle to crown changes less than that. So you get 178mm of wheel travel but your axle to crown only changes like it's a... idk 160mm fork?

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
    Okay, so lets say you get 178mm of travel, but the travel path is not linear, in which case the vertical change is only part of the travel path. What I want to know is how much vertical change occurs throughout the travel path. Rearward travel change and the affects on geo is to be seen/felt.

    It just seems to me like the fork needs to be paired with a frame that has the same axle path, otherwise the two ends of the bike are doing different things. I've read about frame designs that incorporate a rearward axle path, kinda wonder if that's where this fork would shine most.

    Nonetheless, it's still a hell of a lot of A-C
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  26. #26
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    Is anyone riding this fork? Any dentists or orthodontists took the plunge?

    Will there be a couple to try at Outerbike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Someone needs to be racing this thing on the enduro circuit.
    The message has been on the EWS all season so far, and has actually been production ready for 5 years so durability should be pretty good
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    The message has been on the EWS all season so far, and has actually been production ready for 5 years so durability should be pretty good
    EWS?! With 130mm of travel? Really?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    The message has been on the EWS all season so far, and has actually been production ready for 5 years so durability should be pretty good
    Any personal feedback?

    I know there's no silver bullet that'll make me twenty again, but in my mind a fork like the Trust is like comparing a single pivot rear suspension to the newer generation rear suspensions that move the rear axle path in rearward arc to improve square hit compliance.

    If this ^ is the case, then for my uses I might just get a better ride on a Trust.
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    I am seriously considering getting one of these but on the fence if it will work on my Sentinel. The Sentinel is designed around a AC of 571 @ 160mm. This is akin to running a 170mm fork, which some guys do.

    BUT the concern is, I'm not sure how well this fork is going to do on a slack "modern" frame. The idea is it doesn't dive and it doesn't collapse in corners, which is part of the reason bikes have gotten so slack recently, when you are deep in that front travel they are still controllable when your 64* HTA ends up at 70*. With this fork, the theory is, that 64* HTA, which will be 63.X* with higher AC, ends up at, say, 67*, or much slacker relative to a telescopic fork due to it staying up in it's travel more.

    I could very well be wrong, but to me, it seems you'd want a frame with a bit shorter reach, steeper HTA and lower stack height so it rides a bit more balanced.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    The message has been on the EWS all season so far, and has actually been production ready for 5 years so durability should be pretty good
    How could a boost fork be production ready 5 years ago when the Boost front axles haven't been out 5 years?

    Whoever made that bizarre claim didn't think it through.
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  32. #32
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    Lizards, thatís how.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  33. #33
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    I wanna see how they handle demand for a fender.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    I wanna see how they handle demand for a fender.
    I would totally strap a fender on that sucker, hell it might even make it less wierd...

    and yeah, it was totally lizard science on that EWS stuff, cuz I ain't even seen nor heard of a rider racing that fork, which is kinda what I'm wanting to see.
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    FYI

    - 18 bearings
    - Not user serviceable

    Nothing to do with how it works, but you better take it into account.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    FYI

    - 18 bearings
    - Not user serviceable

    Nothing to do with how it works, but you better take it into account.
    Yeah, it's a complicated piece of work, but if you think about how many bearings are in other common pieces of machinery like a transmission, well, eighteen seems kinda limited really.

    If the price wasn't double a top end telescopic fork, it would be more palatable, even fifty percent would be okayish.

    I'm just waiting for some dentist feedback

    I will definitely seek one out at Outerbike
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Yeah, it's a complicated piece of work, but if you think about how many bearings are in other common pieces of machinery like a transmission, well, eighteen seems kinda limited really.

    A transmission? You mean, like, on a car or truck?

    That's a closed system and the bearings are constantly bathed in lubricant.

    Sorta seems like you're talking yourself into liking one of these. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you recognize what's happening.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    A transmission? You mean, like, on a car or truck?

    That's a closed system and the bearings are constantly bathed in lubricant.

    Sorta seems like you're talking yourself into liking one of these. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you recognize what's happening.
    Good call, and yeah, but why not?

    After I try one, if I'm not feeling like a super hero, I doubt I'll spring for it. Sadly, after going through four forks on my current bike, I could have already bought one of these ...

    They have a thirty day try and like or return it for a full refund. Not a bad idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    They have a thirty day try and like or return it for a full refund. Not a bad idea.
    Fair enough! Nothing beats trying a new part on your own bike/trails.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    when you are deep in that front travel they are still controllable when your 64* HTA ends up at 70*.
    I don't think this is true for full suspensions bikes. My understanding is that they tend to roughly retain their angles when the suspension compresses. Of course it depends on design, I think i remember reading that some bikes even get slacker but I could be wrong.

    On a hardtail however, this can be a problem and, just like you, I'd like to know the real effect on diving.
    Beware the hucking bear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    I don't think this is true for full suspensions bikes. My understanding is that they tend to roughly retain their angles when the suspension compresses. Of course it depends on design, I think i remember reading that some bikes even get slacker but I could be wrong.

    On a hardtail however, this can be a problem and, just like you, I'd like to know the real effect on diving.
    On static flat ground, I see that, since front and rear are both compressing....

    But not sure how that could be when coming into a bermed corner hot, lots of front brake, your rear end is unloading while you front is steepening.

    I suppose my point was, modern geo is optimized for conventional forks....this fork doesn't dive....maybe we need to rethink geometry, somewhat to the OP's point.

    I'd love to hear other's opinions on this. @dougal?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    A transmission? You mean, like, on a car or truck?

    That's a closed system and the bearings are constantly bathed in lubricant.

    Sorta seems like you're talking yourself into liking one of these. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you recognize what's happening.
    They say 250 hr service intervals...so if you believe that, it's 3-4 times+ what a typical fork is. Look at rear suspension, my Tallboy hasn't missed a beat in 3 years....bearings not perfect but still well withing working tolerances, I've had 3 fork rebuilds in that time and it's about due for another.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    But not sure how that could be when coming into a bermed corner hot, lots of front brake, your rear end is unloading while you front is steepening.
    Sure, but it seems to me the steep HA is more of a problem on bigger consecutive hits. It's easier to compensate for braking than impacts.
    Beware the hucking bear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    Sure, but it seems to me the steep HA is more of a problem on bigger consecutive hits. It's easier to compensate for braking than impacts.
    I'd agree with that. It's also an issue on steeper runs with higher speed drops and g-outs...any time you have weight over the front while compressed.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Yeah, it's a complicated piece of work, but if you think about how many bearings are in other common pieces of machinery like a transmission, well, eighteen seems kinda limited really.

    If the price wasn't double a top end telescopic fork, it would be more palatable, even fifty percent would be okayish.

    I'm just waiting for some dentist feedback

    I will definitely seek one out at Outerbike
    Reminds me of the comparison of a German car's suspension compared to a Japanese one. So many more parts to the German car's susp. You'll get a better ride experience with German, but the upkeep costs... some might prefer lower upkeep cost and simplicity/familiarity, sacrificing "luxury" if it's functional enough.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    They say 250 hr service intervals...so if you believe that, it's 3-4 times+ what a typical fork is. Look at rear suspension, my Tallboy hasn't missed a beat in 3 years....bearings not perfect but still well withing working tolerances, I've had 3 fork rebuilds in that time and it's about due for another.
    You generally don't notice the gradual decline of rest shock performance and necessity to service, along with bearings. You don't want a catestrophic failure where a pin, reducer or frame part fails, but the only way to assess rear bearings is to unbolt the rear end and turn them by hand, otherwise they are under too much leverage to tell anything by just cycling the suspension. Rear bearings tend to pit and get rough in a season. I'd be highly surprised if your bearings are actually as you claim.
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    so.....

    Effective HA gets steeper as the fork dives into its travel? When the wheel impacts anything, the bike bike slows. As the bike slows, the force is transmitted to the rider, whom has to resist his body moving forward because of that pesky 1st law of Sir Isaac Newton's...its theoretical, but theoretically that seems like the worst time steepen the head angle....when a vector of force is opposite the direction of travel, tucking the front wheel further under the rider..

    again, theoretically, i would guess that the larger/longer the damper and the spring, the more sensitive and efficient they can be designed. weight aside, it stands to reason that the extra "space" afforded by a 1:1 ratio telescopic fork would allow for increased oil, more sensitive damping, and longer/softer rate springs. In the offroad racing world, the rule is to use the longest coil overs that you can package.

    MX has tried and abandoned linkage forks several times. They care less about weight than we do. They have deeper pockets than we do. They haven't gotten linkage forks to be competitive with telescopic forks at any weight or cost. [Same can be said with air forks/shocks...outside of the WP KTM air forks, I believe all Kayaba and Showa offerings have reverted to coil]. Form follows function, and until you see top guys getting a function advantage, then this form is a vanity purchase regardless of how anyone perceives it "feels"....the stopwatch and the podium are tangible and don't care how things "feel."

    ***edit***

    I am just as guilty of vanity purchases as the next guy. Not saying that a linkage fork can't or won't one day trump a telescopic fork...just that the podium will prove it to me, not Trust's marketing....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You generally don't notice the gradual decline of rest shock performance and necessity to service, along with bearings. You don't want a catestrophic failure where a pin, reducer or frame part fails, but the only way to assess rear bearings is to unbolt the rear end and turn them by hand, otherwise they are under too much leverage to tell anything by just cycling the suspension. Rear bearings tend to pit and get rough in a season. I'd be highly surprised if your bearings are actually as you claim.
    Not surprising to me or my shop. I generally do all my own maintenance, but I was crunched for time before my latest stage race, even though they felt ok to me, so took it in to have them do the bearings, they agreed, wasn't absolutely needed but probably should be done soon, i said screw it since they were backlogged with work. This is the PNW, (2) trips to Whistler and a Trans Cascadia enduro race under my belt. After the BC Bike Race I just got back from, they need changed. Thats all beside the point....

    The rear of my bike went 3-4x as long as my fork, that's what I was pointing out....

    Older bikes, power washed or washed excessively, or poorly tightened pivots you'll see eat bearings excessively, but well kept modern bikes tend to last quite some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    so.....

    Effective HA gets steeper as the fork dives into its travel? When the wheel impacts anything, the bike bike slows. As the bike slows, the force is transmitted to the rider, whom has to resist his body moving forward because of that pesky 1st law of Sir Isaac Newton's...its theoretical, but theoretically that seems like the worst time steepen the head angle....when a vector of force is opposite the direction of travel, tucking the front wheel further under the rider..

    again, theoretically, i would guess that the larger/longer the damper and the spring, the more sensitive and efficient they can be designed. weight aside, it stands to reason that the extra "space" afforded by a 1:1 ratio telescopic fork would allow for increased oil, more sensitive damping, and longer/softer rate springs. In the offroad racing world, the rule is to use the longest coil overs that you can package.

    MX has tried and abandoned linkage forks several times. They care less about weight than we do. They have deeper pockets than we do. They haven't gotten linkage forks to be competitive with telescopic forks at any weight or cost. [Same can be said with air forks/shocks...outside of the WP KTM air forks, I believe all Kayaba and Showa offerings have reverted to coil]. Form follows function, and until you see top guys getting a function advantage, then this form is a vanity purchase regardless of how anyone perceives it "feels"....the stopwatch and the podium are tangible and don't care how things "feel."

    ***edit***

    I am just as guilty of vanity purchases as the next guy. Not saying that a linkage fork can't or won't one day trump a telescopic fork...just that the podium will prove it to me, not Trust's marketing....
    Not entirely correct.

    Unfortunately for link forks, moto has "production" rules which limit them from using anything that is not available to the public / through dealer networks and believe it or not, sets $ requirements for suspension parts. So they have their hands tied to a certain extent.

    Many teams experimented with them before these rules were in place. Honda being the one that seemed to put the most energy into it well into the 80's. They believed and they dumped big $$ into it.

    So even if the teams thought there was a better way, they couldn't use something unless they could sell it the right price. Look at all the threads and reviews on the Message fork....nobody wants to dump the $$ for an experiment, people are VERY reluctant to change. It stands to reason the moto crowd, which are much more resistant to change that us, would have the same reaction to us and wouldn't want a bike with the fork.....

    Not to mention, the suspension tuner dudes have 30+ years of data on suspension tunes, they know what works, they know the intricacies of setting up suspension. It's much more complicated on a moto than a MTB, it would take years for them to get it right on a moto....then they'd have to convince guys like you to buy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    Not entirely correct.

    Unfortunately for link forks, moto has "production" rules which limit them from using anything that is not available to the public / through dealer networks and believe it or not, sets $ requirements for suspension parts. So they have their hands tied to a certain extent.

    Many teams experimented with them before these rules were in place. Honda being the one that seemed to put the most energy into it well into the 80's. They believed and they dumped big $$ into it.

    So even if the teams thought there was a better way, they couldn't use something unless they could sell it the right price. Look at all the threads and reviews on the Message fork....nobody wants to dump the $$ for an experiment, people are VERY reluctant to change. It stands to reason the moto crowd, which are much more resistant to change that us, would have the same reaction to us and wouldn't want a bike with the fork.....

    Not to mention, the suspension tuner dudes have 30+ years of data on suspension tunes, they know what works, they know the intricacies of setting up suspension. It's much more complicated on a moto than a MTB, it would take years for them to get it right on a moto....then they'd have to convince guys like you to buy it.
    There is nothing incorrect about it as it applies to the AMA rules. Nothing in the rules prohibits Showa, Kayaba, WP, nor Ohlins from developing a linkage fork and supplying any of the bike brands with said fork. That easily overcomes the production rule piece. Now, to take on the expense, there has to be an advantage which will move market share. And I am quite certain they could play within in the A Kit range of $6k for increased market share.

    The tuner comment actually makes my point...linkage forks are not pervasive in MX because the suspension dudes with 30+ years of data havent found a way to make them faster. In that 30+ years, they have been dealing with a lot of linkage suspension on the rear of the bike, so its not like they are unlocking some black magic.

    As I said before, form follows function. I am not resistant to change....I'd wear a tutu if it made me faster. You want to convince me to buy the tutu, prove to me its faster by putting it at the top of the podium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    There is nothing incorrect about it as it applies to the AMA rules. Nothing in the rules prohibits Showa, Kayaba, WP, nor Ohlins from developing a linkage fork and supplying any of the bike brands with said fork. That easily overcomes the production rule piece. Now, to take on the expense, there has to be an advantage which will move market share. And I am quite certain they could play within in the A Kit range of $6k for increased market share.

    The tuner comment actually makes my point...linkage forks are not pervasive in MX because the suspension dudes with 30+ years of data havent found a way to make them faster. In that 30+ years, they have been dealing with a lot of linkage suspension on the rear of the bike, so its not like they are unlocking some black magic.

    As I said before, form follows function. I am not resistant to change....I'd wear a tutu if it made me faster. You want to convince me to buy the tutu, prove to me its faster by putting it at the top of the podium.
    This part is incorrect or is certainly not a given...."They haven't gotten linkage forks to be competitive with telescopic forks at any weight or cost". They got DEEP into the development and I don't think saw the market for them outside of big factory teams or racing.

    If they don't think Joe public will buy into link forks, they are not going to put it on their bikes, full stop. If they don't think it's ready for the consumer and are not ready to make the investment not just for the R&D and fabrication but also for the supply chain, marketing and potential of short term sales loss....it's not going on their bikes.

    The tuners have not had the opportunity to play with them for the last 30 years and the technology obviously isn't what it is today. Forks today, like the CV forks and telemetry systems didn't exist back then. Don't under-estimate the black magic "art" of suspension....it's unbelievably complicated and may require a number of other changes to the bike and it's geometry. It can take teams years to get things right, look at Jeremy McGrath, he rode a 1993 CR250 frame through 96' because he liked how much it flexed and couldn't get the suspension sorted on the new frames. There is also a rumor that Scott Summers used the same rear shock for years on his XR600 race bike because no other shocks felt the same to him.

    Factory teams are in this for 1 reason, to sell bikes. Form follows function to the extent that it's marketable and they can sell it. If it won't sell, they can't afford to put it on their 'production' bikes and therefore can't use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    Here is an interesting take on carbon (road) forks and damage:

    https://www.velonews.com/2019/09/bik...p-short_500262
    That should be required reading for all cyclist. And this is not just some random person but Lennard Zinn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    This part is incorrect or is certainly not a given...."They haven't gotten linkage forks to be competitive with telescopic forks at any weight or cost". They got DEEP into the development and I don't think saw the market for them outside of big factory teams or racing.

    If they don't think Joe public will buy into link forks, they are not going to put it on their bikes, full stop. If they don't think it's ready for the consumer and are not ready to make the investment not just for the R&D and fabrication but also for the supply chain, marketing and potential of short term sales loss....it's not going on their bikes.

    The tuners have not had the opportunity to play with them for the last 30 years and the technology obviously isn't what it is today. Forks today, like the CV forks and telemetry systems didn't exist back then. Don't under-estimate the black magic "art" of suspension....it's unbelievably complicated and may require a number of other changes to the bike and it's geometry. It can take teams years to get things right, look at Jeremy McGrath, he rode a 1993 CR250 frame through 96' because he liked how much it flexed and couldn't get the suspension sorted on the new frames. There is also a rumor that Scott Summers used the same rear shock for years on his XR600 race bike because no other shocks felt the same to him.

    Factory teams are in this for 1 reason, to sell bikes. Form follows function to the extent that it's marketable and they can sell it. If it won't sell, they can't afford to put it on their 'production' bikes and therefore can't use it.
    it sounds like we are in violent agreement outside of which comes first, the chicken or the egg? demand can be created in many ways, but it is always created at the top of the podium. they've had 30 years to bring the cost down. any given team could use the rule that KTM has used to put the FE bikes at the starting gate. Produce 500 showroom models with linkage forks and then offer them as A kits. speaking of KTMs, it wasnt long ago that the thought of racing an orange bike on a track was laughable. start putting them on the podium...and they meet your Factory team's 1 reason: to sell bikes.

    but before we get way too far off topic, lets frame the question this way:

    what evidence do we have that linkage forks are non inferior to telescopic forks?
    what evidence do we have that telescopic forks are non inferior to linkage forks?

    that can best be answered by which one has dominated the market place for the past 30 years. can that change? absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    Not entirely correct.

    Unfortunately for link forks, moto has "production" rules which limit them from using anything that is not available to the public / through dealer networks and believe it or not, sets $ requirements for suspension parts. So they have their hands tied to a certain extent.

    Many teams experimented with them before these rules were in place. Honda being the one that seemed to put the most energy into it well into the 80's. They believed and they dumped big $$ into it.

    So even if the teams thought there was a better way, they couldn't use something unless they could sell it the right price. Look at all the threads and reviews on the Message fork....nobody wants to dump the $$ for an experiment, people are VERY reluctant to change. It stands to reason the moto crowd, which are much more resistant to change that us, would have the same reaction to us and wouldn't want a bike with the fork.....

    Not to mention, the suspension tuner dudes have 30+ years of data on suspension tunes, they know what works, they know the intricacies of setting up suspension. It's much more complicated on a moto than a MTB, it would take years for them to get it right on a moto....then they'd have to convince guys like you to buy it.
    Found this interesting article about motorcycle leading link forks.
    https://motocrossactionmag.com/leadi...t-time-forgot/
    Quite a few big motocross names believed in it, but at the time was to costly and they said over and over, the looks killed it.

    Call me crazy, but I actually like the looks of this Trust Shout fork. It does come with a 30 day refund incase you don't like it. So far most of the reviewers have comes back very positive.

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    I think damping needs to be addressed before linkage vs. telescopic. Damping can be so much better on OEM stuff that it's not even funny. If you can do them both at the same time, great, but that hasn't been the case yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    Not saying that a linkage fork can't or won't one day trump a telescopic fork...just that the podium will prove it to me, not Trust's marketing....
    Cheers to that

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    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm

    Really good insights from a lot of you guys! But in all honesty, if we put the performance/reliability aside for a minute. The biggest show stopper is the look, right?!

    If a new $2000 "telescoping" fork packing more performance (letís say 200% for the sake of argument) and fixing most of the front suspension issues we have, was hitting the market ... and it was [insert your preferred color here], people would definitely go crazy about it. No?

    So do we really have to rely on a different shape/look to address those performance issues? And if yes, can the look may be less radical?


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    I could care less about looks, just as long it functions as advertised.
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    I've no issues with the looks either. I like "form follows function" so if the way it looks is integral to the way it works, it's OK by me.

    However, if it functions as advertised, the marketers aren't doing their job, which is to obfuscate, exaggerate, and glorify a product well beyond any possible reality.
    Do the math.

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    generally speaking, i think there are two things that muddy the waters when it comes to suspension reviews:

    1) testing brand new suspension against worn out, clapped out, outdated models will ALWAYS result in the new stuff performing better in part to the outgoing stuff's performance being degraded. without knowing the reviewer's baseline, its hard to know what variable deserves the credit.
    2) placebo effect. we expect the new stuff to be more advanced, and, therefore, to be better. this is especially true if we buy into the technology and/or marketing of that tech. mechanics and tuners will actually test this against riders....the mechs will claim to have made an adjustment to overcome something the rider claims they are feeling, and send them back in to the course with zero changes.

    the stopwatch and podium don't "feel" subjective things. the stopwatch and the podium are really the only objective way to measure an increase in performance. "stayed higher in stroke," "didn't dive in corners," "erased small bumps," "felt bottomless," etc, are all completely useless if it doesn't decrease the time your buddies have to wait for you at the next intersection.

    @Jayem , i think, is correct. stock suspension's Achilles's heel is that the damping has to fit everyone, of every weight, of every skill level, off the shelf. playing devil's advocate with myself, maybe a linkage fork can somehow overcome that. maybe not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I could care less about looks, just as long it functions as advertised.
    I'm with you guys here! But, I think the fork has a unique look that I actually like! So far the reviews are glowing. I hope there will be a local shop that has a demo program, so that I can try it on my bike!

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    I want more reviews from people who aren't vested in the product or need to sell magazine/advertisement space.

    MikeSee reviewed the Message and his experiences were not confidence inspiring. It seemed like Trust was building the fork around a preset damping feel and if you didn't like it, tough.

    The Shout needs not only to be better than your average $800-$1000 Lyric, 36 or Mezzer, but it also needs to better than all those forks converted to coil, or with custom damping tunes.

    For $2000 the Shout needs to be twice as good as your current crop of high-end telescoping fork, or those same forks modified and custom tuned.

    I think the only way Trust is going to sell these things is getting them out under more riders. There are lot of spendy riders who will only buy what they can ride from their local bike shop.
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    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I want more reviews from people who aren't vested in the product or need to sell magazine/advertisement space.
    Agreed! So far we've seen nothing close to real world reviews and thereís plenty of grey areas and genuine questions floating around (tech, geometry, etc...) and it seems nobody is too bothered to explain anything. Probably because theyíre too busy riding their amazing fork ...

    The Message has been out for a while now and the tech behind it is the same. Go figure!

    I guess itís all about trust and less about performance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    I've no issues with the looks either. I like "form follows function" so if the way it looks is integral to the way it works, it's OK by me.
    i personally think it's so stupid looking, i wouldn't even take one if it was offered for free...


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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    For $2000 the Shout needs to be twice as good as your current crop of high-end telescoping fork, or those same forks modified and custom tuned.
    This ^
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    ^^^ Unrealistic. Price always goes up much faster than benefit. And new tech generally carries a premium to cover development, manufacturing ramp up, building inventory and building the organization,...The early adopters foot the bill.
    Do the math.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    ^^^ Unrealistic. Price always goes up much faster than benefit. And new tech generally carries a premium to cover development, manufacturing ramp up, building inventory and building the organization,...The early adopters foot the bill.
    I don't agree with that, there's too much variance. Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. Depends on the company and how much $$$ they have, their scale of operation, etc. Remember the message was $2700 originally, but radical new shimano XTR hubs are going to be reasonably priced, because...shimano. Onyx, much more expensive.
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    I havenít seen any reviews on the fork so I figured I add my 2 cents. I have about 5 hours on this fork so far. Not enough for a detailed review, but enough to give initial thoughts. Coming from a Fox Factory 36 with Vorsprung Smashpot, I believe that the Shout is on par with the plushness of a coil 36. They both do a very good job of soaking up the rocky trails here in Phoenix, AZ. Where I think the Shout does excel over the 36 is square hits. The forkís axle path allows it to roll over obstacles better and doesnít bounce off as much. The biggest advantage I have found is that the fork doesnít dive when going into g-outs or hard braking. It stays much higher into itís travel and allows you to stay more aggressive on body positioning. I find myself keeping more weight over the front wheel throughout the ride. And finally, it is over a pound lighter than my previous fork. Iíll update as I get more riding in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brisco Dog View Post
    I havenít seen any reviews on the fork so I figured I add my 2 cents. I have about 5 hours on this fork so far. Not enough for a detailed review, but enough to give initial thoughts. Coming from a Fox Factory 36 with Vorsprung Smashpot, I believe that the Shout is on par with the plushness of a coil 36. They both do a very good job of soaking up the rocky trails here in Phoenix, AZ. Where I think the Shout does excel over the 36 is square hits. The forkís axle path allows it to roll over obstacles better and doesnít bounce off as much. The biggest advantage I have found is that the fork doesnít dive when going into g-outs or hard braking. It stays much higher into itís travel and allows you to stay more aggressive on body positioning. I find myself keeping more weight over the front wheel throughout the ride. And finally, it is over a pound lighter than my previous fork. Iíll update as I get more riding in.
    Thanks for the review, looking forward to when you get this fork dialed in! What bike did you put it on?

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    Ibis Ripmo.

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    Cool! Thanks for the very first real world, real user review ... keep us posted please, Iíd love to know more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brisco Dog View Post
    I havenít seen any reviews on the fork so I figured I add my 2 cents. I have about 5 hours on this fork so far. Not enough for a detailed review, but enough to give initial thoughts. Coming from a Fox Factory 36 with Vorsprung Smashpot, I believe that the Shout is on par with the plushness of a coil 36. They both do a very good job of soaking up the rocky trails here in Phoenix, AZ. Where I think the Shout does excel over the 36 is square hits. The forkís axle path allows it to roll over obstacles better and doesnít bounce off as much. The biggest advantage I have found is that the fork doesnít dive when going into g-outs or hard braking. It stays much higher into itís travel and allows you to stay more aggressive on body positioning. I find myself keeping more weight over the front wheel throughout the ride. And finally, it is over a pound lighter than my previous fork. Iíll update as I get more riding in.
    I like what I'm hearing, I run a Z1 Smashpot that I like, but if I could lose a pound, get as good of performance, and improve ride height and square hit compliance, that woudl be amazing.

    I'm hopeful I can check one out at Outerbike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I like what I'm hearing, I run a Z1 Smashpot that I like, but if I could lose a pound, get as good of performance, and improve ride height and square hit compliance, that woudl be amazing.

    I'm hopeful I can check one out at Outerbike.
    Yep, sounds good so far, but cheap me is still put off by the price tag. I'd be happy to wait around for trickle down to us lowly masses happens though.

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    I own both the Message and the Shout and I think Shout is a huge step forward for Trust. The Message is an excellent fork but it suffers from a "harshness" in some situations. I only have a little time on the Shout so far, but it seems that Trust have eliminated the harshness. The front end feels planted whether in a straight line or corner no matter what the terrain with little to no harshness felt at the bars. While very similar in many ways, the Message and Shout are different with different intentions. Don't judge one based on reviews of the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardjohnson View Post
    reminds me of this:
    Haha! Nice one.

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    Can you still bar spin with it though? or does the wheel hit your bottom bracket?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post

    I finally figured it out!

    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm-mantis-pr.jpg.860x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg

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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by g.law View Post
    I own both the Message and the Shout and I think Shout is a huge step forward for Trust. The Message is an excellent fork but it suffers from a "harshness" in some situations. I only have a little time on the Shout so far, but it seems that Trust have eliminated the harshness. The front end feels planted whether in a straight line or corner no matter what the terrain with little to no harshness felt at the bars. While very similar in many ways, the Message and Shout are different with different intentions. Don't judge one based on reviews of the other.
    What frame you running it on?

    Thanks for the update!

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadBartTaylor View Post
    What frame you running it on?

    Thanks for the update!
    I ran the Message on an Ibis Ripley, a Rocky Mountain Instinct, and a 1018 Turbo Levo. It worked well on the Ripley and Rocky but was pretty harsh on drops where the impact force was coming up vertically. On the Levo the extra weight of the bike helps initiate the movement of the linkage on vertical impacts and it was less harsh.

    When I got the Shout I decided to try it on my 2019 Levo. Again, I think the extra weight of the bike helps initiate the travel in vertical hits, but I think the changes in the design of the Shout make it better anyway.

    I'd really like to see the leverage ratio curves of the Message vs. the Shout but it's pretty obvious the Shout has a higher leverage ratio in the initial travel vs the Message.

  82. #82
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    Nice. Keep the feedback coming, itís interesting.

  83. #83
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    Makes me wonder if the ones criticizing the looks would like to walk around with prosthetic legs that were long straight and telescopic, versus based on a linkage.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Makes me wonder if the ones criticizing the looks would like to walk around with prosthetic legs that were long straight and telescopic, versus based on a linkage.
    holy apples to horsefeathers. now if forks only provided propulsion.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    holy apples to horsefeathers. now if forks only provided propulsion.
    They do. Just in a linear direction. Now pogo along.

  86. #86
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    I'd want e-limbs.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    They do. Just in a linear direction. Now pogo along.
    They pogo stick doesn't propel anything without it first being propelled with an input, which it returns. And it night go to and down with that input, but it doesn't "Pogo along" without a different input.

    Take off your chain. Now propel your bike forward using only your fork.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Makes me wonder if the ones criticizing the looks would like to walk around with prosthetic legs that were long straight and telescopic, versus based on a linkage.
    the only problem with your analogy, is that your wondering is completely backward to the point you're trying to make, and thus prove my point without even knowing so.

    not wanting a link fork because of it's variation from the norm is far different that wanting a massive variation form the norm over a prosthetic. they are actually polar opposites...


  89. #89
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    Trust Performance (The Shout) 178mm

    Suspension Expert Chris Porter reckons the telescopic MTB fork has had its day

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7KO-WK0PpBA

    Interesting!!

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Suspension Expert Chris Porter reckons the telescopic MTB fork has had its day

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7KO-WK0PpBA

    Interesting!!
    Interesting video digev. thanks! Just a heads up, if interested in the fork part, it starts at 7:00mins

  91. #91
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    Thanks! Heís kind of touching on the subject in another recent video as well.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WpAQwZhTLek

  92. #92
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    Chris does not necessarily advocate for linkage forks, he just says the current use of bushing systems aren't ideal.

    He advocates for a sliding bushing system and lighter dual crown forks or stiffer single crown forks.

    Mojo also adds independently adjustable negative air pressure shafts and larger negative air volume chambers to the Morc dual crown systems, indicating that like many, we can all agree that most forks on the market don't have enough negative chamber volume.
    Work - Utility GIS Analyst
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Chris does not necessarily advocate for linkage forks, he just says the current use of bushing systems aren't ideal.
    Agreed. Just saying we've reached the limit of whatís possible/acceptable with current forks and that the design is not ideal to start with. pretty refreshing to hear when almost nobody talks about it so bluntly. I really like this guy!!

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Chris does not necessarily advocate for linkage forks, he just says the current use of bushing systems aren't ideal.

    He advocates for a sliding bushing system and lighter dual crown forks or stiffer single crown forks.

    Mojo also adds independently adjustable negative air pressure shafts and larger negative air volume chambers to the Morc dual crown systems, indicating that like many, we can all agree that most forks on the market don't have enough negative chamber volume.
    I know it would weigh more and probably the head tubes would need to be beefed up, but I'd like to see dual crown, upside down, open bath forks, offered in travel from 140 on up. Just saying they seem to work pretty good on dirt bikes.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I know it would weigh more and probably the head tubes would need to be beefed up, but I'd like to see dual crown, upside down, open bath forks, offered in travel from 140 on up. Just saying they seem to work pretty good on dirt bikes.
    That's a bad idea, not the open bath or the dual crown, but the upside-down part. Our forces and dynamics are significantly different, so what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. Upside down means inherently flexier in torsion, which no one wants. They can do fairly well in being able to take fore-aft loads, but you can increase the stanchion size on right-side up forks to get the same effect. There were a few marzocchis that had sliding bushing systems. IME, they didn't make much difference. What made a difference was the Monster T was 40mm (basically a repurposed trails fork), but the dynamic bushings on the SC and DC shivers didn't keep them from being flexy noodle forks. It's a decent concept, but far more important IMO is when the travel gets long enough, going to dual crown, rather than coming up with ever-increasing crown, stanchion and steerer sizes. I'd like to see more dual crown options targeted more towards AM/Enduro.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  96. #96
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    Some dirt bikes actually tried to go back to right way up forks in the mid 90's(I think it was suzuki?) as upside down forks had MORE binding issues. The dynamic bushing is trying to slide through the area just under the lower clamp that is in bending while you hit a bump. The only reason they stayed with USD forks was ground clearance as the lowers had to extend below the axle. They have obviously improved things in the time since but there was no performance benefit to the USD design. Also by that point conventional forks were seen as the "old" technology
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by g.law View Post
    I ran the Message on an Ibis Ripley, a Rocky Mountain Instinct, and a 1018 Turbo Levo. It worked well on the Ripley and Rocky but was pretty harsh on drops where the impact force was coming up vertically. On the Levo the extra weight of the bike helps initiate the movement of the linkage on vertical impacts and it was less harsh.

    When I got the Shout I decided to try it on my 2019 Levo. Again, I think the extra weight of the bike helps initiate the travel in vertical hits, but I think the changes in the design of the Shout make it better anyway.

    I'd really like to see the leverage ratio curves of the Message vs. the Shout but it's pretty obvious the Shout has a higher leverage ratio in the initial travel vs the Message.
    They modified the damper in the shout to increase compliance for the first inch or 2, not sure on the details but its definitely a big difference. Not sure if the leverage ratio changed much as well or not, but that might be where the extra travel comes from. I haven't had the 2 side by side yet
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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  98. #98
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    Just got back from a demo ride on a Shout. Three things impressed me. The curb smash test was so different than a telescopic fork I just giggled and did it a few more times. On the trail pressing into berms was unbelievable in the confidence it inspired. The fork also refused to become uncomposed by intentionally landing nose heavy on jumps and up to 5' drops. It was not harsh but I couldn't find bottom and despite the force I was putting into I think I could have ridden away no handed, it tracked that well.

    Things I couldn't isolate were I was on a Pivot, which I don't like, with a non-tuned for me shock. I ride a Rallon with an ElevenSix so big difference there and I felt the front suspension could outride the rear keeping me from really testing it at the limits in the rough. I'm also running Cush Core and 18.5psi up front on my bike and was at about 26psi on the demo bike so I have no real comparison in small bump compliance. I'll try to get one from the LBS, put it on my bike and get some in depth feedback in the near future.

    I'll try to answer any questions that come up.

    Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

  99. #99
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    Thanks for the feedback

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Some dirt bikes actually tried to go back to right way up forks in the mid 90's(I think it was suzuki?) as upside down forks had MORE binding issues. The dynamic bushing is trying to slide through the area just under the lower clamp that is in bending while you hit a bump. The only reason they stayed with USD forks was ground clearance as the lowers had to extend below the axle. They have obviously improved things in the time since but there was no performance benefit to the USD design. Also by that point conventional forks were seen as the "old" technology
    Suzuki dabbled in the late 90s with their moto bikes for a couple years I think, my 96' KTM enduro bike also had conventional Marzocchis and the XR's maintained the conventional forks for many years until they got discontinued. All were very competitive in their day.

    I disagree, while the fork lowers can hang down a bit more it was RARELY a problem in practice, at least I never noticed it and Scott Summer won many championships on them when he was on XR600's....

    I was just talking to my moto suspension guy about this very subject a couple weeks ago when I dropped off my new Husqvarna USD forks + shock. I said I remember how plush and incredible those old forks were, particularly the KTM conventionals, he's an older guy and a bit of a curmudgeon and said my memory is much better than reality....he said current USD forks are lightyears better than anything we had in the 90's and suspension is the best it's ever been. He's the main suspension dude in the area and has been doing it for 20+ years....

  101. #101
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    I think Stratos said it best here about a decade or so ago. The quote was basically "USD is a massive set of compromises that starts to work around 180-200mm of travel".

    That's referring to MTB obviously, for moto the size and weight is quite different and so is the cross-over point in travel.

    The only super successful USD mtb fork has been the Manitou Dorado. The current 36mm chassis began 10 years ago in 2009. It's semi-open bath damper is replaced with a bladder cartridge for 2020.

    There's a lot of misplaced nostalgia in every industry. Here it's mostly about open bath. The big issues with open bath are:
    1. Inconsistent damping due to oil foaming and having to suck up oil into the cartridge.
    2. Pressure buildup due to oil gassing out
    3. Riders don't maintain them regularly so they end up full of metal soup. At which point they're scrap metal.

    The extra weight is another, minor, negative.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  102. #102
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    Two weeks ago I ended up in Moab riding with a young man who works for/with Trust. Not entirely sure what the his relationship with them was, but he had a Shout on his Norco Range 29er. He spent the whole weekend hucking that bike off everything he could find and it held up really well.
    Then he let me ride his bike for a bit on Mag 7. It blew my mind. I went from back of the pack to the front. I could hear people hollering behind me, "How did he take that corner so fast?"
    The cornering was really awesome. Like it was on rails. And smashing into stuff became quite enjoyable too. The bike was begging to be hucked. I'm not sure how to adequately describe the cornering though. It just felt so stable-- no fork dive, no wash out-- just lean the bike over and rail through the corner.

    I only rode it for a few miles. I would have liked to spend the whole weekend on it, but it was enough to make me really want a very expensive fork that isn't all that good looking. I realize this is all anecdotal, not super objective information, but consider this: I jumped on someone else's bike, who I outweighed by a lot, and then rode faster than everyone when I was previously lagging behind. The speed I could carry on a unfamiliar bike that was not set up for me at all-- well, it scared me a little bit.

    For blasting through Moab chunk it was an awesome fork. I'd like to try it out on some smoother, twisty single track just to see... It's still ugly though.
    Now, I fully admit there were other variables at play here. This was my first real ride on a longish travel 29er. I was riding a 27.5 hardtail with a 160 fork, so big difference there. It is a frame I designed and built myself, so my bike setup is pretty dialed in, but that's part of the reason I was so impressed with the speed I could carry on someone else's bike. Anyway, take that for what it's worth. I almost wish I hadn't ridden it, because now I want a really expensive, ugly fork.

  103. #103
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    Typical!

    In the morning morning you confirm my fork upgrade is done, then PM say the damper is obsolete! =)

    Any details on the new dorado?

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I think Stratos said it best here about a decade or so ago. The quote was basically "USD is a massive set of compromises that starts to work around 180-200mm of travel".

    That's referring to MTB obviously, for moto the size and weight is quite different and so is the cross-over point in travel.

    The only super successful USD mtb fork has been the Manitou Dorado. The current 36mm chassis began 10 years ago in 2009. It's semi-open bath damper is replaced with a bladder cartridge for 2020.

    There's a lot of misplaced nostalgia in every industry. Here it's mostly about open bath. The big issues with open bath are:
    1. Inconsistent damping due to oil foaming and having to suck up oil into the cartridge.
    2. Pressure buildup due to oil gassing out
    3. Riders don't maintain them regularly so they end up full of metal soup. At which point they're scrap metal.

    The extra weight is another, minor, negative.
    Dougal, I will be the first to admit I'm no suspension expert, but I would like to add my experience regarding open bath dampers.

    Firstly, as I understand if you have the correct and/or sufficienet oil height then the pressure build up when the fork compresses will excert a positive pressure upon the oil and prevent cavitation, well known open bath cartridge manufacturers will confirm this if asked.

    Secondly, I have changed 2 different open bath cartridges oil after a full years of hard riding, Enduro racing and a week in the Pyrenees, oil came out the same colour as it went in.

    Lastly, and I will acknowledge my ignorance here, but what and how is oil gassing out ?

    Cheers and thank you.

  105. #105
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    Reminder: Cavitation and aeration are two different things. Cavitation is fluid vaporizing under local low dynamic pressure. In shocks, high IFP pressures are employed to reduce the occurrence of this. In forks without IFP or high IFP pressure you can often hear cavitation. Aeration is air mixing with oil. This is not possible if air is separated from the oil by an IFP or bladder.
    Do the math.

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