Super T bottoms harshly / change to air?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Super T bottoms harshly / change to air?

    Okay, so I disabled the ssv damping in the left side (its an 04) so I am only running 1 HSCV. Occasionally the fork bottoms (sag is correct so i guess some thicker/higher oil height). But the problem is even when the lower triple is .75" away from the "min" line mounting, the fork can fully compress (measured at 7.75" travel....), the arch slams into the lower triple making a very harsh clank. Is this normal for super t's/junior t's when bottomed?

    Second thing, I have heard of people converting the fork to air only, I searched but was unable to find infor regarding this...any help?

    Thanks guys, ohh fork in question: (yes I was wearing swiming trunks)

  2. #2
    TNC
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    I can't swear to this, but I thought that model of Super didn't allow the arch to contact the lower crown at full compression. I have an '02 Super (30mm), and it clears the lower crown. Are you seeing actual marks on the arch and crown from this contact? If so I'm wondering if you arch or something is bent. Have you owned this fork since new? On bottomout control for the Super when sag and other ride quality is to your liking, you use the oil level to control bottomout...a very easy and effective feature. Bottoming a Jr. or Super does produce a very loud clank. Are you sure that's not what you're hearing. If you can, take some closeup pics of the contact marks or damage at the arch and crown area. Maybe I'm having a brain fart here and just missing something obvious from your description.

    Oh, let me add this about an air conversion. The Super is a great working fork when set up right. I personally like some air suspension setups, but I wouldn't change a Super T.
    Last edited by TNC; 07-12-2006 at 10:42 PM.

  3. #3
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    7.75" on a 170mm (6.7") fork doesn't sound good. I think you removed the bottom out limit as well

  4. #4
    TNC
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    Lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    7.75" on a 170mm (6.7") fork doesn't sound good. I think you removed the bottom out limit as well
    I knew I was missing something obvious in his post. Yeah...he created a Super Duper T. Still, Danno, there shouldn't be any crown/arch contact, should it? I thought that model allowed the lowers to compress all the way to the to the lower crown until the seals hit when the guts are out of the fork. Or am I having another brain fart.

  5. #5

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    not sure if they are available for the 32mm but i know you can get air caps to replace the top caps for the 30mm. I believe they are good for compression settings and not for the total removal of the springs. then again what do I know, I just add enough oil until its to my liking.

  6. #6
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    Hey, let em do it again, yeah,
    Hey, said you were my friend,
    Hey, turn me upside down oh,
    Hey, feeling so down,
    Hey,
    Hey,

    Adjust bottom out with oil level, again, again and again, again, and again

    Hey, I know I made the same mistake, yeah,
    I, I won't do it again, no,
    Why, why you slap me in the face now?
    I, I didn't say it was ok no
    No, no,

    You should adjust the bottom out with the oil level again, again and again, again, and again

    Oh..ooh ooh, yeah (repeat)

    Hey, you had time to think it out, yeah
    Hey, your weak will won't help her heal her heart,
    Hey, I bet it really eats you up oh, ahh,

    Adjust oil level to prevent bottom out again, again and again, again and again,

    ooh ooh, yeah (reapeat)
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  7. #7
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    I'm not worried that it is bottoming (I know how to correct that) but It definatly seems there should be a soft bumper of some sort? Yes the arch hits the lower triple (the lower triple has a pocket that is the same shape at the arch. I don't remember what the previous year supers looked like but this one definatly hits. (doesn't mark it up though because when it does hit it has face contact with the lower triple) Anyone know what normally limits travel when these are bottomed harshly?

  8. #8
    TNC
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    Bottomout

    Quote Originally Posted by alexchannell
    I'm not worried that it is bottoming (I know how to correct that) but It definatly seems there should be a soft bumper of some sort? Yes the arch hits the lower triple (the lower triple has a pocket that is the same shape at the arch. I don't remember what the previous year supers looked like but this one definatly hits. (doesn't mark it up though because when it does hit it has face contact with the lower triple) Anyone know what normally limits travel when these are bottomed harshly?
    I'm pretty sure the internals on your Super are just like the ones in my '02...different diameter springs being the main difference. I also have the '04 Marz service CD manual. I'm not seeing a bottomout bumper system in either leg...looks just like my '02. The HSCV cart is closed, but I don't think either it or the SSV damper has any internal bottomout bumper. Like I said in my other post, and like Jayem subtly suggested , I think bottomout on this fork is controlled by the springs and the oil level. The final hydraulic lock up of the air/oil system is what prevents that loud, clanking bottomout.

    Your stated measurement of 7.75" sounds odd. I don't see how the SSV unit or the new HSCV cart allows your fork to "extend" any further than their original design dictates, which is 6.7". My '02 shows close to 7.7" of exposed stanchion, but that's not my travel. The travel is controlled and limited by the 6.7" HSCV cart and your original SSV unit. Now...if you left out the plastic spacer(s) in the fork, you'd get horrible bottomout. There are two springs in each leg and two plastic spacers that sit above them. There is also a little separater washer between the two springs. The HSCV cart only moves 6.7", extending or compressing. Are you sure you are getting 7.75" of stroke? Again, maybe I'm missing something obvious here.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    I'm pretty sure the internals on your Super are just like the ones in my '02...different diameter springs being the main difference. I also have the '04 Marz service CD manual. I'm not seeing a bottomout bumper system in either leg...looks just like my '02. The HSCV cart is closed, but I don't think either it or the SSV damper has any internal bottomout bumper. Like I said in my other post, and like Jayem subtly suggested , I think bottomout on this fork is controlled by the springs and the oil level. The final hydraulic lock up of the air/oil system is what prevents that loud, clanking bottomout.

    Your stated measurement of 7.75" sounds odd. I don't see how the SSV unit or the new HSCV cart allows your fork to "extend" any further than their original design dictates, which is 6.7". My '02 shows close to 7.7" of exposed stanchion, but that's not my travel. The travel is controlled and limited by the 6.7" HSCV cart and your original SSV unit. Now...if you left out the plastic spacer(s) in the fork, you'd get horrible bottomout. There are two springs in each leg and two plastic spacers that sit above them. There is also a little separater washer between the two springs. The HSCV cart only moves 6.7", extending or compressing. Are you sure you are getting 7.75" of stroke? Again, maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
    If he's really got the lower clamp 0.75" above the min line and it's still bottoming onto the arch there's got to be some bottom out limt missing. Something wrong with the carts. I'm surprised the tire's not giving him a nice BRAAAAAAAAAP followed by an unexpected, fast OTB.

    Like Jayem and you have said, using oil level is the only nice way to get soft BO.

  10. #10
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    Yeah I thought it was strange, however the HSCV is damping nicely, rebound works well etc. I had a zip tie on the thing too and it ended up .75" above the min line, up against the lower clamp. I would have thought the stantions would bottom out in the fork lowers but I guess they have a fair amount of clearence.
    I don't see what you mean about the tire hitting, the arch hits the lower triple so the tire really never gets that close to anything.

    Anyways, time to tweak the oil levels/weights.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexchannell
    Yeah I thought it was strange, however the HSCV is damping nicely, rebound works well etc. I had a zip tie on the thing too and it ended up .75" above the min line, up against the lower clamp. I would have thought the stantions would bottom out in the fork lowers but I guess they have a fair amount of clearence.
    I don't see what you mean about the tire hitting, the arch hits the lower triple so the tire really never gets that close to anything.

    Anyways, time to tweak the oil levels/weights.
    Yeah, if the brake arch is below the lower clamp at bottom out there's no way your tire will hit. A lot of forks do allow the lower clamp to drop below the brake arch though.

    While this is a bit OT, I had a friend with a Shiver that would barely fit his bike due to the long head tube so he'd run the bottom clamp below the min line. He'd use oil level to prevent bottom out, but if that oil got low every drop you'd hear the tire buzz the clamp. Scary.

  12. #12
    TNC
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    Oil level/weight

    Quote Originally Posted by alexchannell
    Yeah I thought it was strange, however the HSCV is damping nicely, rebound works well etc. I had a zip tie on the thing too and it ended up .75" above the min line, up against the lower clamp. I would have thought the stantions would bottom out in the fork lowers but I guess they have a fair amount of clearence.
    I don't see what you mean about the tire hitting, the arch hits the lower triple so the tire really never gets that close to anything.

    Anyways, time to tweak the oil levels/weights.
    Stay with just raising the oil level first. Regardless of oil weight/viscosity, it's the amount that controls ultimate bottomout. Many who have run 10wt oil find that compression damping slows too much. In fact many find the fork to work well with 5wt instead of the stock 7.5wt. James at Go-Ride had a good post on this issue on some Marz forks. I've been running 5wt. in my '02 for years, and I weigh 190. Only go to a heavier weight oil after you've gotten bottomout under control with oil level...if you still find compression damping to be too weak.

    Alex, could you clarify your comment about the "minimum line" on your fork. I thought the min. line was intended to be "above" the lower triple clamp or right at the bottom of the lower triple clamp depending on the particular fork...sorry, I haven't seen every Marz fork. I'd think it's supposed to be "at least" right under the lower triple clamp, so I'm wondering how your zip tie got .75" above this line. It almost sounds like you have the fork stanchions pushed down too far in the clamps or something. Please understand that no one is flaming you here, just trying to figure out what's going on. It's hard to diagnose things like this over the internet when you can't see this stuff in person.

  13. #13
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    Thanks for the input about oil weight.

    Okay, I will try to explain, unfortunatly I do not have a picture

    The "min" mark is located right where the stantion changes to a slightly larger diameter. The bottom of the lower triple is about .75 inches above this line. The oil/dust seal went over this slightly larger diameter section when bottomed.
    the "max" mark is about .5" above the top of the triple clamp.

    (btw the 04 is the super T that had the adjustable lower triple. the 03 and previous did not)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexchannell
    Thanks for the input about oil weight.

    Okay, I will try to explain, unfortunatly I do not have a picture

    The "min" mark is located right where the stantion changes to a slightly larger diameter. The bottom of the lower triple is about .75 inches above this line. The oil/dust seal went over this slightly larger diameter section when bottomed.
    the "max" mark is about .5" above the top of the triple clamp.

    (btw the 04 is the super T that had the adjustable lower triple. the 03 and previous did not)
    It really sounds like it compressing too far if the seal went over the larger diameter crown clamp area. Whatever the problem is increased oil height will help limit it.

    I think it was only the 03 that was cryofit. I know the 01 and 02 had the old 3 piece lowers and the crown was adjustable.

  15. #15

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    I'm pretty sure the reason your fork is bottoming out is you have disabled a hscv cart not a ssv, therefore your fork is only running at 50%. Junior t has ssv in both legs Super t has hscv in both legs. Maybe you need heavier springs as well.

  16. #16
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    I have an 04, they put SSV in one leg and HSCV in the other, I disabled the ssv. Sag is correct, so don't need heavier springs. I put some more oil in it and went out this weekend to Mohican wilderness and didn't have any bottoming at all this time

  17. #17

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    my 04 super T bottoms out harshly too, it's nearly new and iv never pulled it apart. i put the firmest springs from marz on it.

  18. #18
    TNC
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    Oil level first.

    Quote Originally Posted by akhoundog
    my 04 super T bottoms out harshly too, it's nearly new and iv never pulled it apart. i put the firmest springs from marz on it.
    Bottomout should be dealt with first by raising the oil level. Then if sag and full travel aren't satisfactory while riding, change the springs.

  19. #19

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    sag was too much, im a heavy guy.

    the adjustment screw, is that only for rebound or does it effect compression as well?

  20. #20
    TNC
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    Rebound only

    Quote Originally Posted by akhoundog
    sag was too much, im a heavy guy.

    the adjustment screw, is that only for rebound or does it effect compression as well?
    Compression is controlled by oil weight, but most find that the 7.5 is about as heavy as one should go.

  21. #21
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    jr-super conversion....questions

    Hey guys, just stumbled on this post as I'm searching for some help. I'm in the middle of putting the super t cart in my jr t and want to make sure I've got the order of parts correct. Here's how I have it set up:the cart bolted on the lower> large spring sitting on the cart's floating washer> washer> smaller spring> washer> spacer> cap? My fork only had one spacer in it (its 5.5 CM tall), so I'm thinking that its as big as the two mentioned in an earlier post.

    Also, I'm curious how to measure the oil. I've got 90-100mm as my target height according to GO-Ride's paperwork. I'm using a dip stick I made from a coak hanger to gauge the oil level, and I'm pretty sure its close to 90mm. Any other methods? It seems the super T takes less than the jr T did btw.

    Thanks for the help

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