• 06-14-2009
    graftoon
    Stictionless forks, What are the options?
    was just wondering if Headshok was the only Stictionless technology out there for front suspension forks? :madman:
    If not, what other options are there :confused:

    thanks in advance :thumbsup:
  • 06-14-2009
    mullet dew
    Nope, Cannondale is the only one with the Bicycle Ultra LossLess Stictionless Headshok Integrated Technology.
  • 06-14-2009
    Mr. Doom
    My coil forks have had very little stiction. Most forks get smoother with time.
  • 06-14-2009
    jcarney
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullet dew
    Nope, Cannondale is the only one with the Bicycle Ultra LossLess Stictionless Headshok Integrated Technology.

    lol! that's what I was thinking...
  • 06-14-2009
    graftoon
    will a dart 3 eventually break in and become less stictionless?
  • 06-14-2009
    Nick_M2R
    silicon spray on the stanchion tubes, and occasionally put some fork oil on them, this keeps my fork smooth as
  • 06-14-2009
    Bikeeveryday
    what is the big deal? Most air forks have negative air springs to reduce friction at the first bump nowadays. Get a fox or a rockshox. not much stiction there. rockshox even has a negative air chamber to tune out the stiction.
  • 06-14-2009
    highdelll
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullet dew
    Nope, Cannondale is the only one with the Bicycle Ultra LossLess Stictionless Headshok Integrated Technology.

    Nice One! :thumbsup:
  • 06-14-2009
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bikeeveryday
    what is the big deal? Most air forks have negative air springs to reduce friction at the first bump nowadays

    Well, only RS has an adjustable negative spring as far as I know, and IMO it's critical. The fox versions use a "self adjusting" air spring, but that is always going to set to a certain value depending on the positive pressure. You simply can't do the tuning that you can with the RS "dual air" versions.

    Not to say that other air shocks/forks suck, you might just get lucky and the pre-set self-adjusting feature may be to your liking, but it depends on how much pressure, progressiveness, and other parameters that you want to tune, and the negative air is not going to be a constant for everyone.

    Otherwise, your best bet is a coil shock with good lubrication. There are still some, but they are getting rare these days. The dual-air RS forks are pretty damn good considering everything else and their prior models.
  • 06-15-2009
    tomsmoto
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by graftoon
    will a dart 3 eventually break in and become less stictionless?

    mine got worse and worse until it was basically a platform fork, due to stiction.. and it had oil in it. its just a bad fork.
  • 06-15-2009
    Nick_M2R
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    mine got worse and worse until it was basically a platform fork, due to stiction.. and it had oil in it. its just a bad fork.

    Do remember that the dart series is Rockshox's lowest entry level fork series, meant for bikes that are only for beginners off road, so dont expect performance thats on par with their high level forks with better spring systems and dampening
  • 06-15-2009
    Ktse
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by graftoon
    will a dart 3 eventually break in and become less stictionless?

    There is hope, make sure there is enough oil in the lower legs, and teflon lube the stanctions. I did this to a dart 1 (even crappier) and while it's not as buttery smooth as my Pike, it does feel better than when it was new (because there was no oil!).
  • 06-15-2009
    retro83
    Quote:

    what is the big deal? Most air forks have negative air springs to reduce friction at the first bump nowadays. Get a fox or a rockshox. not much stiction there. rockshox even has a negative air chamber to tune out the stiction.
    I think this is wrong. I think stiction comes from the seals and the bushings being tight.

    The dual air/negative spring setup allows you to tune out preload which used to make air forks feel like crap.

    The best way to keep forks stiction free is regular lowers servicing.

    HeadShock forks are relatively stiction free as they use needle roller bearings instead of bushings
  • 06-15-2009
    graftoon
    Before After
    Before After

    These bikes are the reasoning for my original question, i tried the 4 differant fork set ups(dart3 was painted black during the swapouts). I love the after setups, just hope my superv500 dont suffer stickton fatigue but noticed it took the dart3 better than the F600. :)
  • 06-15-2009
    Bikeeveryday
    just ride your bike. dont be so concerned about stiction.
  • 06-16-2009
    bad mechanic
    Fox air forks use a non-adjustable coil for the negative spring.

    A negative spring allows a fork to activate at a lower force without greatly affecting the rest of the spring rate through the rest of the travel. So while it doesn't eliminate stiction, it helps feel like it did.This graph (which I blatantly stole from another thread) helps explain it quite well:

  • 06-16-2009
    bad mechanic
    To the OP, your problem isn't stiction, but the fact the Dart is a rubbish fork. You could eliminate all the stiction in it, and it would still ride like crap. Either upgrade to a better fork, or just ride it.
  • 06-16-2009
    retro83
    Quote:

    A negative spring allows a fork to activate at a lower force without greatly affecting the rest of the spring rate through the rest of the travel. So while it doesn't eliminate stiction, it helps feel like it did.This graph (which I blatantly stole from another thread) helps explain it quite well:
    That graph is showing that preload can be eliminated with a negative spring.

    Stiction is constant because it is nothing to do with the pressure, only the friction from the seals and bushings.

    So again it doesn't feel like it has eliminated stiction (because the stiction still can be felt), but rather eliminated the preload which used to be typical of air forks.
  • 06-16-2009
    bad mechanic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by retro83
    That graph is showing that preload can be eliminated with a negative spring.

    Stiction is constant because it is nothing to do with the pressure, only the friction from the seals and bushings.

    So again it doesn't feel like it has eliminated stiction (because the stiction still can be felt), but rather eliminated the preload which used to be typical of air forks.

    I don't think preload means what you think it means.

    I said it only feels like you've eliminated the stiction because the negative spring allows the fork to activate at a lower force (which the chart shows), and stiction is one of the factors which keep a fork from activating.
  • 06-16-2009
    retro83
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    I don't think preload means what you think it means.

    I said it only feels like you've eliminated the stiction because the negative spring allows the fork to activate at a lower force (which the chart shows), and stiction is one of the factors which keep a fork from activating.

    Let's agree to disagree :thumbsup:

    The negative spring cannot eliminate stiction. It eliminates preload caused by the high air pressure in the positive spring which is trying to force the piston open even at when it's already at full extension.

    Using the negative spring you can balance this pressure and thus end up with no preload (i.e. on your graph the lines would cross the 0 point on the pressure axis). This is what the graph shows.
  • 06-16-2009
    tomsmoto
    ^ thats just an ultra anal, argumentative way of saying yes, it does remove stiction :lol:

    if your fork isnt sticking at the beginning of its travel, you've cured stiction.
  • 06-16-2009
    bad mechanic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by retro83
    Let's agree to disagree :thumbsup:

    The negative spring cannot eliminate stiction. It eliminates preload caused by the high air pressure in the positive spring which is trying to force the piston open even at when it's already at full extension.

    Using the negative spring you can balance this pressure and thus end up with no preload (i.e. on your graph the lines would cross the 0 point on the pressure axis). This is what the graph shows.

    Wow, dude, seriously stop talking.

    Like Tomsmoto said, you're being anal and not even listening to what I'm saying. It's not eliminating stiction, but the net result to the rider it feels like it has. How many more ways can I say this? This is what the fork activating at a lower force means.
  • 06-16-2009
    graftoon
    :) wow, thanks guys for all the great responses.
  • 06-17-2009
    retro83
    Quote:

    Wow, dude, seriously stop talking.

    Like Tomsmoto said, you're being anal and not even listening to what I'm saying. It's not eliminating stiction, but the net result to the rider it feels like it has. How many more ways can I say this? This is what the fork activating at a lower force means.
    Quote:

    ^ thats just an ultra anal, argumentative way of saying yes, it does remove stiction
    Ah forget it. If you think removing preload on a fork is removing 'the feeling' of stiction then good for you. All it's doing is removing the feeling of being preloaded, the stiction still occurs and you can still 100% feel it. Not sure how much clearer I can be on that.
  • 06-17-2009
    Jerk_Chicken
    Whenever I go back to my Zoke Z1 from my Fox 36, I remember what it's like to be on a frictionless fork ;)
  • 06-17-2009
    bad mechanic
    retro83, go talk to Fox, go talk to Rock Shox, and then come back and discus.

    By the way, it's really hard for me to take someone seriously who keeps using the term preload incorrectly. You're not preloading an air spring when you're adding pressure, you're changing the spring rate. The term preload only applies to when you're using a coil.

    I'm pretty much done with this thread.

    PS - There was a Z1 on my bike for a while, and it is plushest fork I've ever had.
  • 06-17-2009
    retro83
    Quote:

    By the way, it's really hard for me to take someone seriously who keeps using the term preload incorrectly. You're not preloading an air spring when you're adding pressure, you're changing the spring rate. The term preload only applies to when you're using a coil.
    I really couldn't give a monkeys if you take me seriously or not.

    A preloaded spring (coil or otherwise) is one which is already loaded at its point of rest (ie. full extension). Inflating an air spring has the effect of both increasing the spring rate and increasing the preload. Once again, this is shown by the graph crossing the vertical axis at a point greater than zero (as this force has to be overcome before the fork can compress)

    The negative spring in dual air forks such as inside rock shox current air forks balances this force, and thus allows removal of the preload.

    Let me ask you this, how do you think Marzocchi's air preload system works?
  • 06-17-2009
    bad mechanic
    As I said, you obviously don't understand the definition of preload as pertaining to suspension, and I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

    Feel free to call Fox and have them explain it.

    PS - Marzocchi's "Air Preload" is a marketing term, not a technical one.
  • 06-17-2009
    retro83
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    As I said, you obviously don't understand the definition of preload as pertaining to suspension, and I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

    Feel free to call Fox and have them explain it.

    PS - Marzocchi's "Air Preload" is a marketing term, not a technical one.

    If i'm wrong that's fine, please do explain your definition of preload, and how it is possible to manufacture a positive air spring which is not preloaded