RS Lyrik Ultimate- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    RS Lyrik Ultimate

    So we are seeing a handful of pro EWS riding on Lyrik Ultimate forks. Predictions?

  2. #2
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    Carbon Lowers
    Coil spring
    Semi-active Electronic damping control
    damper with spring-backed IFP

    We can speculate right?
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    Servicing in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/DVO service centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

  3. #3
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    New damper that (hopefully) help mid-stroke support/feel and is generally more consistent. Also solve the negative chamber's "suction effect" effectively losing 10mm of travel from static.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmonty View Post
    New damper that (hopefully) help mid-stroke support/feel and is generally more consistent. Also solve the negative chamber's "suction effect" effectively losing 10mm of travel from static.
    Sounds like folks will need the ultimate edition to have a fork that works like one would expect a non-“ultimate” fork to work.

    Here’s for hoping there’s something more in there. Ti coil spring perhaps?


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  5. #5
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    Damper improvements would be nice for sure. The fox Grip 2 is a whole new fancy damper, RC2 is just a charger 2. My fox envy requires something more substantial from RS. I think more riders are paying attention to their suspension these days, and offering more adjustability to the rider is a major selling point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus View Post
    Sounds like folks will need the ultimate edition to have a fork that works like one would expect a non-“ultimate” fork to work.

    Here’s for hoping there’s something more in there. Ti coil spring perhaps?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    The fork is overall pretty nice (I have a 180mm RCT3, debonair + charger 2). But I can definitely tell where it's weak in the mid-stroke, especially on chunky, steep terrain. Seems like folks going to coil or other "linear" solutions have a big improvement, but the damper side is still not 100% where it should be in.

    First world problems, right? I am just hoping whatever they are doing is backwards compatible and not super pricey.

  7. #7
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    LSC dials that do something.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmonty View Post
    New damper that (hopefully) help mid-stroke support/feel and is generally more consistent. Also solve the negative chamber's "suction effect" effectively losing 10mm of travel from static.
    The 2019 debonair air damper needs more air than the 2016-2018. Folk run too many tokens, and then don't have enough PSI to get the right sag, but can use all the travel. The fork is effectively too soft, and too progressive.

    The solution for that is to run less tokens, and get the right amount of sag, running more PSI. This gives more mid-stroke support, and has a higher dynamic ride height.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerpoise View Post
    The 2019 debonair air damper needs more air than the 2016-2018. Folk run too many tokens, and then don't have enough PSI to get the right sag, but can use all the travel. The fork is effectively too soft, and too progressive.

    The solution for that is to run less tokens, and get the right amount of sag, running more PSI. This gives more mid-stroke support, and has a higher dynamic ride height.


    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
    I’ve tried all that. I can use all my travel and have no support, or I can have support and be a little over sprung and give up travel. I think the damper needs to add support with better LSC, or put a coil in it. . I don’t see the air spring getting any better

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erotomania View Post
    I’ve tried all that. I can use all my travel and have no support, or I can have support and be a little over sprung and give up travel. I think the damper needs to add support with better LSC, or put a coil in it. . I don’t see the air spring getting any better
    Have you tried half a token between your 'too liner' and 'too progressive' setup. I needed to do that on my 150 Lyrik.

    The other option would be custom tuning the high speed compression stack - unless you've got the RC2 damper, and don't have it wound all the way off.

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  11. #11
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    what are the spec of this fork? (Lyrik Ultimate) anyone have an idea when it will be avail aftermarket? (if at all)

  12. #12
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    Probably something overpriced and underwhelming. They are a big company so they are going to more than likely send out a "special edition" version to their top riding pros and then have the consumer market drooling over whatever XYZ pro has. They will build stoke around it as XYZ pro wins some races on it and then throw out a "new" version to the public that has very slight, if any, updates/upgrades over the last version and then charge their "brand premium". I have been happy with my my Manitou and SR Suntour products so I think I will stick with the little guys that actually care about their customer base.

  13. #13
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    Bold new graphics and a $500 premium. Everything else is virtually identical.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Bold new graphics and a $500 premium. Everything else is virtually identical.
    But do the graphics offer better small bump compliance?

  15. #15
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    Translation from a Taiwanese website:

    Lyrik Ultimate combines the fully recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper, the new SKF seal ring, and Maxima Plush damping oil for smooth, smooth movement, allowing the front fork to maintain a high stroke during compression while returning the tires close to the ground, achieving unparalleled handling. With the new Charger 2.1 RC2 damper, riders can find the perfect adjustment settings for their riding environment.

    *Features / Benefits
    . Newly recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper for higher level compression and rebound control
    . New low friction SKF seal ring and damping pod seal ring
    . New Maxima Plush damping oil reduces friction and improves smoothness
    . New signature "BoXXer Red" color scheme
    . New Ultimate High Polishing Sample
    . Charger 2.1 RC2 damping element with independent high speed and low speed compression damping adjustment
    . DebonAir air spring reduces the friction of each moving part and enhances the bounce absorption effect. Even under heavy load, the reaction is flexible and greatly reduces the rider’s control burden.

  16. #16
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    that's a gold mine of info. any word on release date?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tavaenga View Post
    Translation from a Taiwanese website:

    Lyrik Ultimate combines the fully recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper, the new SKF seal ring, and Maxima Plush damping oil for smooth, smooth movement, allowing the front fork to maintain a high stroke during compression while returning the tires close to the ground, achieving unparalleled handling. With the new Charger 2.1 RC2 damper, riders can find the perfect adjustment settings for their riding environment.

    *Features / Benefits
    . Newly recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper for higher level compression and rebound control
    . New low friction SKF seal ring and damping pod seal ring
    . New Maxima Plush damping oil reduces friction and improves smoothness
    . New signature "BoXXer Red" color scheme
    . New Ultimate High Polishing Sample
    . Charger 2.1 RC2 damping element with independent high speed and low speed compression damping adjustment
    . DebonAir air spring reduces the friction of each moving part and enhances the bounce absorption effect. Even under heavy load, the reaction is flexible and greatly reduces the rider’s control burden.
    So RC2 recalibrating and some sliding/sealing upgrades.

    They've certainly bracketed the damping from too much to too little. Are they right in the middle now?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  18. #18
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    I can imagine some people wanting a bit more lsc especially. opposite ends of the spectrum are apparent but the clicks in the middle are kinda snake oil

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by doema View Post
    that's a gold mine of info. any word on release date?
    The current Lyrik RC2 was released on the third Tuesday in March so I’m guessing March 19th? Let’s see....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tavaenga View Post
    The current Lyrik RC2 was released on the third Tuesday in March so I’m guessing March 19th? Let’s see....
    From my experience, most folk run zero HSC and very little LSC.

    Which to me would suggest if RS were to tweak the damper, they would put the current zero settings to the middle, and allow more control to back off the HSC and LSC.

    Who wants more LSC from their Lyrik? And to what end? Normally you run as little as you can that reduces the peak force from the air damper.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerpoise View Post
    From my experience, most folk run zero HSC and very little LSC.

    Which to me would suggest if RS were to tweak the damper, they would put the current zero settings to the middle, and allow more control to back off the HSC and LSC.

    Who wants more LSC from their Lyrik? And to what end? Normally you run as little as you can that reduces the peak force from the air damper.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
    The RCT3 sure, that one goes to stiffer damping than anyone needs with a twist of the dial.
    But the RC2 has a soft shim stack with no preload and a LSC needle that literally does not touch the sides and just moves up and down a bit.

    At 75kg I have no problem slamming an RC2 lyrik through it's travel with HSC and LSC fully closed.
    More aggressive riders need more support.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The RCT3 sure, that one goes to stiffer damping than anyone needs with a twist of the dial.
    But the RC2 has a soft shim stack with no preload and a LSC needle that literally does not touch the sides and just moves up and down a bit.

    At 75kg I have no problem slamming an RC2 lyrik through it's travel with HSC and LSC fully closed.
    More aggressive riders need more support.
    Wow. Sounds like Fox when they went to CTD for the first time.

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  23. #23
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    Rockshox needs to quit tweaking and modifying the charger and go with a full redesign. Otherwise, I don’t feel very confident throwing my money at anything they release. The new debonair upgrade was nice, but still just a bandaid. The RC2 upgrade has been temping, but I don’t feel it is worth the cost. I’d rather save my $300, sell my lyrik, and buy a 36 grip 2.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tavaenga View Post
    Translation from a Taiwanese website:

    Lyrik Ultimate combines the fully recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper, the new SKF seal ring, and Maxima Plush damping oil for smooth, smooth movement, allowing the front fork to maintain a high stroke during compression while returning the tires close to the ground, achieving unparalleled handling. With the new Charger 2.1 RC2 damper, riders can find the perfect adjustment settings for their riding environment.

    *Features / Benefits
    . Newly recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper for higher level compression and rebound control
    . New low friction SKF seal ring and damping pod seal ring
    . New Maxima Plush damping oil reduces friction and improves smoothness
    . New signature "BoXXer Red" color scheme
    . New Ultimate High Polishing Sample
    . Charger 2.1 RC2 damping element with independent high speed and low speed compression damping adjustment
    . DebonAir air spring reduces the friction of each moving part and enhances the bounce absorption effect. Even under heavy load, the reaction is flexible and greatly reduces the rider’s control burden.
    Doesn't seem to be anything revolutionary at all to merit the "Utlimate" tag. This could well be the last Lyrik before RockShox brings back the Totem for 2020.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbl Kint View Post
    Doesn't seem to be anything revolutionary at all to merit the "Utlimate" tag. This could well be the last Lyrik before RockShox brings back the Totem for 2020.
    Hmmm, that was a year ago: https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Is...n-the-Way,2219

    Interesting that RS kept that page up with a "current" description: https://www.sram.com/rockshox/family/totem
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  26. #26
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    Original Taiwanese website removed the reference to the Lyrik Ultimate. Fortunately, google cached it. It seems this fork is ready to retail very soon.

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...nt=firefox-b-d





  27. #27
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    Those cached pics are interesting. Those show a regular lower that is currently on the Lyrik and Yari seeing they share the same chassis.

    However this picture clearly shows a different dropout, possibly a pike/pike lower rebadged to Lyrik for weight savings?

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-screen-shot-2019-03-17-8.03.28-am.jpg

  28. #28
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    Your probably looking at a 29” Lyrik in the pic and the cached site is 27.5, just a guess though

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Your probably looking at a 29” Lyrik in the pic and the cached site is 27.5, just a guess though
    Ahh yes you are correct, hadn't realised that the dropout would be different for 27.5 as that's what mine is. Do like the new graphics though

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erotomania View Post
    Rockshox needs to quit tweaking and modifying the charger and go with a full redesign. Otherwise, I don’t feel very confident throwing my money at anything they release. The new debonair upgrade was nice, but still just a bandaid. The RC2 upgrade has been temping, but I don’t feel it is worth the cost. I’d rather save my $300, sell my lyrik, and buy a 36 grip 2.
    I'm thinking of going this route. It's a good fork but I am still struggling to find a tune that feels supple enough on moderate chunk without diving on huge hits.

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    At 75kg I have no problem slamming an RC2 lyrik through it's travel with HSC and LSC fully closed.
    More aggressive riders need more support.
    Slight derailment.

    I'm surprised at what you're saying. Educate me here..

    At 200lbs I have no problem with support with Lyrik RC2. Riding 95psi, one token, not much lsc, mid hsc and riding what I'm pretty sure is the high end of the aggressive terrain, speed, and demands of the suspension. Only close to bottom when I'm in way over my head. I'm setting up strictly by feel and in the past rode what was most likely overdamped (hard on hands) so went the other way with this fork and freed it up a little. In slow speed really chunky tech I miss some LSC otherwise the fork is amazing.

    Is it your impression that I should be using more damping for support as opposed to the spring?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Slight derailment.

    I'm surprised at what you're saying. Educate me here..

    At 200lbs I have no problem with support with Lyrik RC2. Riding 95psi, one token, not much lsc, mid hsc and riding what I'm pretty sure is the high end of the aggressive terrain, speed, and demands of the suspension. Only close to bottom when I'm in way over my head. I'm setting up strictly by feel and in the past rode what was most likely overdamped (hard on hands) so went the other way with this fork and freed it up a little. In slow speed really chunky tech I miss some LSC otherwise the fork is amazing.

    Is it your impression that I should be using more damping for support as opposed to the spring?
    Got it with the last sentence. But the RC2 can't provide that support without modification.
    For the majority of people underdamped feels better than overdamped. But the right amout, in the right places, is still far better.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  33. #33
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    The spring and damper have to work together to provide support. RS have done a good job of making a plush air spring, but the damping is too much or not there at all.

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    No spring:

    Trek Slash frame is supported by a Rockshox Lyrik Ultimate (90psi)

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-che...orua-2019.html

  36. #36
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    SRAM have a big booth at the Taiwan Cycle Show. I hope RockShox is a part of that too. I want to see these up close.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbl Kint View Post
    SRAM have a big booth at the Taiwan Cycle Show. I hope RockShox is a part of that too. I want to see these up close.
    No Rockshox stuff displayed at all. I asked around and have confirmed that some of the shops in Taichung already have it but are not releasing it to retail just yet. I also wasn't able to find any news regarding any release dates whatsoever.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbl Kint View Post
    SRAM have a big booth at the Taiwan Cycle Show. I hope RockShox is a part of that too. I want to see these up close.
    The Taipei show works on two levels.

    The stuff out front of the booths is for the public (and competitors) to see. The top secret stuff is disclosed to those who need to know in the closed meeting rooms.

    I normally go. But last years one was October and they moved this years one back to April. There's no point going to the same show twice within 6 months. A lot of exhibitors and visitors couldn't decide which one to attend.

    It should be back to normal next April.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  39. #39
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    https://enduro-mtb.com/en/sram-g2/

    Looks like the test forks have been out for a while. Article came out 5 days ago and I assume they've had it for a while before that. In this cas it's the Pike Ultimate (which I am excited to see). The wait is killing me. Really thought it was going to be today

  40. #40
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    Not much has changed at all from what I am hearing. A new sealhead on the damper, a revised rebound tune and new oils.

  41. #41
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    What makes you think I dont just want the new decals!?! hahah I kid. Yeah the Lyric doesn't look all that different but they've definitely put some work into the pike to make it lighter (look a t the crown) which would be interesting to me.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    Not much has changed at all from what I am hearing. A new sealhead on the damper, a revised rebound tune and new oils.


    Then the translated post below seems to be accurate then.



    Quote Originally Posted by tavaenga View Post
    Translation from a Taiwanese website:

    Lyrik Ultimate combines the fully recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper, the new SKF seal ring, and Maxima Plush damping oil for smooth, smooth movement, allowing the front fork to maintain a high stroke during compression while returning the tires close to the ground, achieving unparalleled handling. With the new Charger 2.1 RC2 damper, riders can find the perfect adjustment settings for their riding environment.

    *Features / Benefits
    . Newly recalibrated Charger 2.1 damper for higher level compression and rebound control
    . New low friction SKF seal ring and damping pod seal ring
    . New Maxima Plush damping oil reduces friction and improves smoothness
    . New signature "BoXXer Red" color scheme
    . New Ultimate High Polishing Sample
    . Charger 2.1 RC2 damping element with independent high speed and low speed compression damping adjustment
    . DebonAir air spring reduces the friction of each moving part and enhances the bounce absorption effect. Even under heavy load, the reaction is flexible and greatly reduces the rider’s control burden.

  43. #43
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    Now available.

    From the reviews I've read, the biggest changes seem to be a lighter HSC tune and more useable LSC (I thought that's what they said they improved with the 2019 as well). I wonder how the soon-to-released Push damper will compare.

  44. #44
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    https://m.vitalmtb.com/features/2020...GIB4Qisc7lEx4U

    Kind of feel bad for whoever updated to charger 2....

  45. #45
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    I'm still confused by the pike. Its clearly a redesigned chassis but none of the articles discuss it.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbutcher13 View Post
    I'm still confused by the pike. Its clearly a redesigned chassis but none of the articles discuss it.
    TBH the Pike looks exactly like the MY18 and newer Pike?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    https://m.vitalmtb.com/features/2020...GIB4Qisc7lEx4U

    Kind of feel bad for whoever updated to charger 2....
    That seems to read just like every other suspension release article over the last 10 years.

    I like this part, "It wasn't long ago that the Charger 2 damper came out. It was a big deal, bringing with it some notable improvements to RockShox's bladder-based design. Even so, RockShox knew they could do better." If they knew that they could do better, then why didn't they do it then?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    That seems to read just like every other suspension release article over the last 10 years.

    I like this part, "It wasn't long ago that the Charger 2 damper came out. It was a big deal, bringing with it some notable improvements to RockShox's bladder-based design. Even so, RockShox knew they could do better." If they knew that they could do better, then why didn't they do it then?
    Think how many charger 2 dampers they sold. Now think how many charger damper 2.1 the are going to sell. And how many charger 2.2 they are going to sell in the future that is how you make a profit!

  49. #49
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    Cut/paste from the just released marketing material.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRAM
    Lyrik Ultimate combines the completely re-tuned Charger ™
    2.1 damper with new SKF wiper seals, SKF damper cartridge
    seals, and Maxima Plush fluid for a buttery smooth
    feel while allowing the fork to ride higher in travel on
    compression keeping the tires planted on the ground on
    rebound for unmatched control. With the new Charger ™
    2.1 RC2 damper, riders are able to find the perfect level of
    adjustment for their ride.
    FEATURES / BENEFITS
    • NEW Completely re-tuned Charger ™ 2.1 damper for next level compression and
    rebound control
    • NEW Lower friction SKF Wiper and Damper Cartridge Seals
    • NEW Maxima Plush damping fluid reduces friction and improves smoothness
    • NEW Signature “BoXXer Red” colorway
    • NEW Ultimate high gloss graphics package
    • Charger ™ 2.1 RC2 Damper featuring independent high and low speed
    compression adjust
    • DebonAir ™ air spring reduces friction from every single moving part,
    improving bump absorption and response under load, and drastically reducing rider fatigue
    More interesting is this bit for the Lyrik Select:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRAM
    • Charger ™ RC Damper featuring low speed compression adjust to firm
    Which suggests it now has a working LSC needle.
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    Does anyone have a link to the part numbers for the dampers, specifically the Pike Charger 2.1 RC2. I have not found anything yet. Worldwidecyclery.com has forks but no parts.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolatt View Post
    Does anyone have a link to the part numbers for the dampers, specifically the Pike Charger 2.1 RC2. I have not found anything yet. Worldwidecyclery.com has forks but no parts.
    Some part numbers have been released, but you won't see parts available for a while.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Some part numbers have been released, but you won't see parts available for a while.
    I should specify...I'm looking for the full drop-in/replacement damper assembly (Pike Charger 2.1 RC2). I'm hoping they release it soon, I cancelled my Charger 2 order as soon as I saw the release

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolatt View Post
    I should specify...I'm looking for the full drop-in/replacement damper assembly (Pike Charger 2.1 RC2). I'm hoping they release it soon, I cancelled my Charger 2 order as soon as I saw the release
    Avalanche.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolatt View Post
    I should specify...I'm looking for the full drop-in/replacement damper assembly (Pike Charger 2.1 RC2). I'm hoping they release it soon, I cancelled my Charger 2 order as soon as I saw the release
    Good timing. I actually reserved a MY19 Lyrik RC2 (160mm 29r with 42mm offset) before all the photos of the EWS riders came out.

    What I'm thinking now is that the 170mm version might also come with a reduced offset. For $699 MSRP for the Select™, that would have been a better deal for me than the Ulitmate.


    Btw, owners of the 2014 Pike RCT must be very happy right now to still be able to get their forks upgraded to 2020 performance. I just sold mine and was bummed to find out a couple of days later that it could actually still be upgraded.

  55. #55
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    Found some part numbers. These are in CDN$

    https://www.hlc.bike/ca/Catalog/Sear...=Charger%202.1


    Question though, damper compatibility between A1/A2/B1 etc it looks like there are generally two distinctions, wheel size and boost or non-boost?
    I'm trying to be sure one 2.1 RC2 will fit a 27.5/boost Pike, either 2017 or 2018 (came on a bike in 2017 so could be a 2018 model).The Charger 2 damper I originally ordered was described as "27.5 15x110 Boost (A2/17), Pike (B1/18+). If that fits a 27.5 Boost then this Charger 2.1 should also fit no?


    942455-01 RockShox, Charger 2.1 RC2 Upgrade Kit - Pike, Pike B1+ (2018+), Kit, 00.4020.169.005

  56. #56
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    440 CAD for Lyrik RC2 2.1 upgrade...that is way more than I thought. Probably better to add a bit and go with avalanche or at least RCT3 for way less...

  57. #57
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    Yeah prices will probably normalize and come down in about 6 months. Right now it is the new hotness for RS so of course everything is going to be exact MSRP.

    If you want something now, then you are going to be way better off with the Avy cartridge if you are willing to spend the $440CAD on it. At least at that point the Avy cartridge is custom tuned and built for you and you alone, the Charger 2.1 will not be.

  58. #58
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    Let's see what Push comes out with as hinted in the Charger2 tuning thread. Bet it will knock spots off the new RS offerings.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Got it with the last sentence. But the RC2 can't provide that support without modification.
    For the majority of people underdamped feels better than overdamped. But the right amout, in the right places, is still far better.
    Hey Dougal,
    I've been reading your posts and you certainly know your stuff.
    But I am in the UK, so NZ is a long long way away.

    Is there anyone here in the UK you'd recommend to make a Lyric RC2 with charger2 damper work right?
    I guess some of the parts from the Charger 2.1 would help, better seal head, shaft etc.
    Perhaps NOT the Andreani piston lots of tuning places here sell.

    Avalanche?
    Thanks mate

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudfish801 View Post
    Hey Dougal,
    I've been reading your posts and you certainly know your stuff.
    But I am in the UK, so NZ is a long long way away.

    Is there anyone here in the UK you'd recommend to make a Lyric RC2 with charger2 damper work right?
    I guess some of the parts from the Charger 2.1 would help, better seal head, shaft etc.
    Perhaps NOT the Andreani piston lots of tuning places here sell.

    Avalanche?
    Thanks mate
    Thanks for the feedback. I don't know anyone anywhere who is tuning these the way I do. I also see Rockshoxk reducing parts availability with recent releases so I can't imagine them offering much more than seal heads for the C2.1 damper.

    There is a lot of rubbish out there. I am specialling out a tuned RC2 Lyrik damper (ex R&D, 3 rides old), no problem to ship those worldwide. We also tune world-wide and can give you an up-front price for everything including return post.
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    Hey Dougal, just noticed you are pretty close to me. Do you think I would be better off with a ‘19 Lyrik rc2 with a custom tune, or should I wait for a ‘20 Lyrik ultimate with custom tune?
    Thanks
    Tim

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjm2000 View Post
    Hey Dougal, just noticed you are pretty close to me. Do you think I would be better off with a ‘19 Lyrik rc2 with a custom tune, or should I wait for a ‘20 Lyrik ultimate with custom tune?
    Thanks
    Tim
    I think you'd be better off waiting a few months. Three things are happening.
    1. 2019 models may get cheaper.
    2. 2020 models may be available.
    3. Something new is coming to upset that market segment.

    Since you're local, I've got some demo forks you should ride (if you're 27").
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I think you'd be better off waiting a few months. Three things are happening.
    1. 2019 models may get cheaper.
    2. 2020 models may be available.
    3. Something new is coming to upset that market segment.

    Since you're local, I've got some demo forks you should ride (if you're 27").
    I’m on 29” wheels unfortunately.
    Sounds like I’d be better off waiting.
    Hopefully Manitou will release a long travel 29” fork in the near future

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I don't know anyone anywhere who is tuning these the way I do. I also see Rockshoxk reducing parts availability with recent releases so I can't imagine them offering much more than seal heads for the C2.1 damper.

    There is a lot of rubbish out there. I am specialling out a tuned RC2 Lyrik damper (ex R&D, 3 rides old), no problem to ship those worldwide. We also tune world-wide and can give you an up-front price for everything including return post.
    Thanks for the reply Dougal
    I'll do a lubrication service and see how it feels with that, then think about your offer
    Good on you
    neil

  65. #65
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    Looking online, it looks like its $330 USD for the Lyrik/Yari 2.1 RC2 upgrade. I've found the Lyrik/Yari 2 RC2 upgrade on sale for $228. Wondering if the upgrade to the 2.1 would even be worth it. Especially since it sounds like PUSH is coming out with something for the Charger2 that I bet would make it better than the Charger 2.1.

    Think I'm going to end up buying the Charger 2 RC2 upgrade for my Yari and then wait and see what PUSH comes out with.
    Patrick

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I think you'd be better off waiting a few months. Three things are happening.
    1. 2019 models may get cheaper.
    2. 2020 models may be available.
    3. Something new is coming to upset that market segment.

    Since you're local, I've got some demo forks you should ride (if you're 27").
    I'm guessing this is what you are referring to that will upset the market? I'm Looking forward to hearing more about this!

    https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy...a-hubs-return/

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjames12 View Post
    Looking online, it looks like its $330 USD for the Lyrik/Yari 2.1 RC2 upgrade. I've found the Lyrik/Yari 2 RC2 upgrade on sale for $228. Wondering if the upgrade to the 2.1 would even be worth it. Especially since it sounds like PUSH is coming out with something for the Charger2 that I bet would make it better than the Charger 2.1.

    Think I'm going to end up buying the Charger 2 RC2 upgrade for my Yari and then wait and see what PUSH comes out with.
    The Push setup will be next level.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    The Push setup will be next level.
    Any day now....

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    I'm guessing this is what you are referring to that will upset the market? I'm Looking forward to hearing more about this!

    https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy...a-hubs-return/
    Yes: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...r-1101508.html
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Untitled by joost nijland, on Flickr

    love it
    Bird zero AM with mt7 danny mcaskill, eagle nextie and some fun bits

  71. #71
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    Dampers are arriving and I will do some bench testing and throw one in my bike but had a little poke around first for anyone interested

    Rebound piston has the same flow area but larger shim sealing surface & corresponding shims
    Mid Valve is unchanged
    Feels pretty slippery but will take some careful testing to see if that makes any difference on the trail
    LSC needle is still smaller than the orifice so will be needing dyno time to see what real change there is

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-102a6d52-0aa7-4605-8dc2-4a83ff584315.jpg
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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  72. #72
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    Well that's disappointing.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Dampers are arriving and I will do some bench testing and throw one in my bike but had a little poke around first for anyone interested

    Rebound piston has the same flow area but larger shim sealing surface & corresponding shims
    Mid Valve is unchanged
    Feels pretty slippery but will take some careful testing to see if that makes any difference on the trail
    LSC needle is still smaller than the orifice so will be needing dyno time to see what real change there is

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So if same flow area does that mean same high speed rebound rate? If so then that with the added shims would be slower? Confused what is trying to be done here or what RS thought process is on this. Curious about the low speed compression too since it is supposed to be different

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    So if same flow area does that mean same high speed rebound rate? If so then that with the added shims would be slower? Confused what is trying to be done here or what RS thought process is on this.
    Not necessarily slower, the area of the shims that oil presses on is larger and the edge of the ports is wider. It was supposed to make it more digressive but the previous tune was already more digressive than charger 1, due to the much softer tune

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    So if same flow area does that mean same high speed rebound rate? If so then that with the added shims would be slower? Confused what is trying to be done here or what RS thought process is on this. Curious about the low speed compression too since it is supposed to be different
    The flow now has more leverage on the shim stack. So a stiffer shim stack can be used with more tunability.

    The Charger 2 has only three shims on HSR and a result that is too stiff for most. So this is more tweakable.

    Interestingly Push have a tuning guide now for the Charger 2 rebound (part of the HC97) which is recommending even stiffer than stock for many riders.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The flow now has more leverage on the shim stack. So a stiffer shim stack can be used with more tunability.

    The Charger 2 has only three shims on HSR and a result that is too stiff for most. So this is more tweakable.

    Interestingly Push have a tuning guide now for the Charger 2 rebound (part of the HC97) which is recommending even stiffer than stock for many riders.
    I find charger 2 rebound to be one of the softest out there, I get more than high enough shaft speeds in the middle of the range with softish springs for my 70kg weight. The push guide reflects exactly the same as what I’ve tested

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I find charger 2 rebound to be one of the softest out there, I get more than high enough shaft speeds in the middle of the range with softish springs for my 70kg weight. The push guide reflects exactly the same as what I’ve tested
    That's slow. How many clicks are you running?

    C2 has 20 clicks. Stock I run 5 from open.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyc7 View Post
    dampers are arriving and i will do some bench testing and throw one in my bike but had a little poke around first for anyone interested

    rebound piston has the same flow area but larger shim sealing surface & corresponding shims
    mid valve is unchanged
    feels pretty slippery but will take some careful testing to see if that makes any difference on the trail
    lsc needle is still smaller than the orifice so will be needing dyno time to see what real change there is

    Click image for larger version. 

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    MUST. HAVE. MOAR SHIMZ

    Have FUN!

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RS Lyrik Ultimate-shimz.jpg  

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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That's slow. How many clicks are you running?

    C2 has 20 clicks. Stock I run 5 from open.
    Data proves otherwise, I run 10 clicks out and there no packing and rebound speeds are well in to the acceptable range. 40 lb/in spring

  80. #80
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    Ah yea I forgot force is pressure over area dope. So then it looks like this would open possibly sooner in the rebound stroke (maybe even into the mid stroke area) which would help keep the fork higher without needing as much compression.

    Seems there is two thought processes here where Push after speaking to him feel the Charger needs more compression so it stays higher and because of this the rebound also doesn’t need to be as fast (reflected in his tuning guide). This makes sense to me but also it seems odd because everyone keeps wanting less and less compression in the Charger, myself included felt the rc2 in full soft was much more compliant and well tracked better over rough than the RCT3. According to Darren rc2 full soft is same as RCT3 yet all literature said RC2 mid position is same as RCT3, myself and another rider seemed to agree with the literature but I’m sure Darren has dyno data to back his claim (maybe I misunderstood).

    It seems RS is going with a theory of softer compression but faster rebound in the mid and deep stroke to keep the fork higher.

    I’m torn between both so I’ll sit on the fence and keep an eye on both until more data is out.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Data proves otherwise, I run 10 clicks out and there no packing and rebound speeds are well in to the acceptable range. 40 lb/in spring
    Go ahead and post this data. I'm interested to see how far apart your bumps are in time. Because that's horrible where I ride.

    Are you having stability problems that require such a slow rebound?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Go ahead and post this data. I'm interested to see how far apart your bumps are in time. Because that's horrible where I ride.

    Are you having stability problems that require such a slow rebound?
    Slow? What kind of speed are you expecting?
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Slow? What kind of speed are you expecting?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    A divorced data stream requires a lot of assumptions to read as we have no terrain information. But assuming your peak rebound speed coincides with the fork leaving the ground (pump off a lip perhaps) then I am running rebound speeds around 50% faster. These fit with your clicker settings, spring rate and expected damping curve.

    0.7 is dead to me. I have no stability reasons to run that slow and many other reasons to run faster.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    I'm gonna assume we can talk about Pike Utimates here too.

    Anyone have some setup recommendations? I'm around 155lb kitted. Haven't had Rockshox before.

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-right.jpg

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    Started to trickle into my country now (the Philippines). All the 29er versions are in red, though.

    Sent using Tapatalk

  86. #86
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    Anyone having any issues running a front fender with the new lyrik ultimate? First few rides on the new fork and crown seems to be hitting the marsh guard fender on full compression. Never had this before. Seems to hit with about 5mm ish left on the stantion.
    2019 Santa Cruz Bronson CC XO1

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  87. #87
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    The Charger 2.1 damper has a LSC circuit that now works, different oil and a very soft shim stack on the base-valve.

    Pics here: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bzwh3Bbnrqj/

    The new seal head feels just like the old one. It might be smoother after some riding.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Hi i just got the Lyrik Ultimate RC2. 150 mm 650B 2 Tokens. Massively impressed with this fork. Huge difference compared to 2017 Pike. The only thing that worries me is the excessive PSI i need to get to 20% SAG. Weigh 92 kg and have 140 PSI in the fork. Fork feels perfect though cant complain it is just way off the recommended PSI. What do you think just keep it like this or further investigate. Shock pump is definetly not broken. Shows correct PSI on shock and old pike.

  89. #89
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    Reviving older thread
    Really struggling with new Lyrik. Pretty confident something is not right with the fork.

    88kg
    67psi (98 rec for weight)
    25% sag
    0 tokens
    -10 rebound
    HSC/LSC wide open


    Remains harsh. Still not able to use entire travel. Compression dials don’t seem to do anything. Anyone have this problem? Solution?

  90. #90
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    Yeah. That's not right. Maybe a leaky air seal letting air into the lowers. Slip a zip tie past the dust seal to see if you get air out.

    I'm 80kg and need about 90-92 psi to get 25% sag.

  91. #91
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    Can folk post what psi they are running.

    I've been on a Lyric Ultimate for a while now. 150mm. 275. My riding weight #180.

    Fork feels super smooth off the top which is what I was looking for for the type of riding I'm using it on - moderate speed, very slick, off camber, non-buff, non-manicured, hiking trail stuff. Not technically biking trail stuff. Minimal high speed but some pretty big g-out coming off ledgy drops.

    But it blows through travel very fast, even with the dampers dialed up.

    For about 25% sag I'm running at least 90 psi which is fairly higher than recommended. Are the charts off? In the past I've found RS charts to be on. Maybe it has to do with the fork being run at the lower end of its travel - 150mm ?

    Anyone have a link to the stock and max spacers page with SRAM? Can't find it. I know they use to have one.

    I'm in the process of adding spacers, bumping up the psi, and bumping up the damping. With backyard testing that does seem to help a lot. We'll see on tomorrow's ride. Still feel nice and soft off the top, but less divey now.

  92. #92
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    I would run 70 psi on a 170 fork and I’m 165#

    You will need relatively more pressure in the shorter travel fork so if your grip etc is fine at 90 or higher then no worries running that.

    The charts are only a guideline and sometimes if you have a fork that started life as a 180mm for example it has a different chart to one that was 160.

    You will likely need a token or 2 as well to keep the fork up in its travel so once you’ve found your upper limit of pressure add a couple of those

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Can folk post what psi they are running.

    I've been on a Lyric Ultimate for a while now. 150mm. 275. My riding weight #180.

    Fork feels super smooth off the top which is what I was looking for for the type of riding I'm using it on - moderate speed, very slick, off camber, non-buff, non-manicured, hiking trail stuff. Not technically biking trail stuff. Minimal high speed but some pretty big g-out coming off ledgy drops.

    But it blows through travel very fast, even with the dampers dialed up.

    For about 25% sag I'm running at least 90 psi which is fairly higher than recommended. Are the charts off? In the past I've found RS charts to be on. Maybe it has to do with the fork being run at the lower end of its travel - 150mm ?

    Anyone have a link to the stock and max spacers page with SRAM? Can't find it. I know they use to have one.

    I'm in the process of adding spacers, bumping up the psi, and bumping up the damping. With backyard testing that does seem to help a lot. We'll see on tomorrow's ride. Still feel nice and soft off the top, but less divey now.
    App for your weight says 85psi so your right around there. Max tokens for 150mm is 5 tokens, the chart is in here.

    https://www.servicearchive.sram.com/...lish_rev_a.pdf

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    Run my 275 150 Lyrik ultimate at 145 PSI weigh 90 kg. Feels fine. Send it in to RS because i had a crack in the lowers. I also asked them if its okay if need so much pressure. They said its fine.

  95. #95
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    Thanks.

    After upping the psi the fork feels better. Addressed the divey tendency. Might just run a bit more psi as it still feels nice and soft off the top. Maybe then back off on the low and high speed compression. While set up for the Lyric suggests 20-30% sag, for the last few years RS always feels better to me with less sag, like 20%.

    Both L and HSC seem very light. A few clicks either way don't seem to make a big difference. Pretty similar to RS stuff in the past. That said I still really like the fork. I've got this theory that RS makes forks with both lighter compression and rebound damping. The rebound speed they recommend for me seems pretty darn quick. The LSC damping is also very light. I think they expect the spring to do much of the work. Also, to keep the fork riding high in travel, faster rebound, in place of heavier compression damping.

    I've tried this with forks in the past. Riding super aggressively at mach speeds and the fork does not offer enough support. But, take it down a notch and the fork was so compliant I could ride overall faster and longer due to less fatigue. Saw this a lot with DH. On over damped forks, guys were always complaining of arm pump and sore hands. Maybe faster on one or two runs, but for back to back, all day sessions they petered out much more quickly.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Thanks.

    After upping the psi the fork feels better. Addressed the divey tendency. Might just run a bit more psi as it still feels nice and soft off the top. Maybe then back off on the low and high speed compression. While set up for the Lyric suggests 20-30% sag, for the last few years RS always feels better to me with less sag, like 20%.

    Both L and HSC seem very light. A few clicks either way don't seem to make a big difference. Pretty similar to RS stuff in the past. That said I still really like the fork. I've got this theory that RS makes forks with both lighter compression and rebound damping. The rebound speed they recommend for me seems pretty darn quick. The LSC damping is also very light. I think they expect the spring to do much of the work. Also, to keep the fork riding high in travel, faster rebound, in place of heavier compression damping.
    Yeah 20% is a good figure for most forks. And yes the compression is very light, this isn't unusual for most forks so it can suit a wider range of riderd. Charger 2 & 2.1 do both have faster rebound than most other brands though

    Lsc won't make a lot of difference until the last 10 clicks from closed, and even then it isn't mega strong and also depends on where your HSC is set to. I would suggest running your hsc about 1 click from hardest to start then add lsc if needed
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    Hi, I'm looking for some help on my Lyrik setup. I'm 65kg, and a very experienced rider and very fussy with my suspenion.

    I am coming from a 2018 Trek Remedy 8. Initial setup was 2 tokens with approx 60 psi.

    I upgraded the Lyrik to both the new Charger 2.0 damper and debonair airspring. My setup then went to 0 tokens, and 62psi. The fork felt brilliant. Superb initial bump response, no bottom out and I was usually using 90% of travel. Great ramp up at the end of the stroke.

    I have now purchased (new) a 2019 Slash 8 with the Yari. This comes with the debonair air spring, but crappy motion control damper. I have had the shop swap the Charger 2.0 damper out of the Remedy into the Yari, effectively making it THE EXACT SAME fork - except for the stickers!

    Here is where my problem begins. For what it's worth, both are 160mm travel forks.

    I copied the settings from my remedy to the slash: 0 tokens, 62 psi and relevant rebound.

    Initial rides saw me blowing through the travel, and bottoming out quite hard. I upped the pressure eventually to 76 PSI and lost small bump sensitivilty. No good. So I installed one token with little difference. No good. I installed another token, a little better, dropped the pressure. Long story short, I now have 3 tokens installed and I'm running 64 PSI to achieve a similar feeling of what the Remedy had with 0 tokens and 62PSI.

    Considering that I am running the exact same damper out of the remedy - with the same debonair air spring and the same fork travel, how is it that the setup can be so wildly different?

    Could it be oil volume levels or oil weight? Any technitians out there that can give me some advice - the settings are so different that it has me a little worried. I'd like to go back to the shop with some info.

    Thanks.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Headoc View Post
    Reviving older thread
    Really struggling with new Lyrik. Pretty confident something is not right with the fork.

    88kg
    67psi (98 rec for weight)
    25% sag
    0 tokens
    -10 rebound
    HSC/LSC wide open


    Remains harsh. Still not able to use entire travel. Compression dials don’t seem to do anything. Anyone have this problem? Solution?
    I would add two tokens and drop the pressure 5psi to start. You should see better small bump compliance with a less 'harsh' feeling. Sag can be variable depending on how it is measure (seated, standing, geared up etc) Open up the LSC and HSC completely. See how that goes.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff76 View Post
    Hi, I'm looking for some help on my Lyrik setup. I'm 65kg, and a very experienced rider and very fussy with my suspenion.

    I am coming from a 2018 Trek Remedy 8. Initial setup was 2 tokens with approx 60 psi.

    I upgraded the Lyrik to both the new Charger 2.0 damper and debonair airspring. My setup then went to 0 tokens, and 62psi. The fork felt brilliant. Superb initial bump response, no bottom out and I was usually using 90% of travel. Great ramp up at the end of the stroke.

    I have now purchased (new) a 2019 Slash 8 with the Yari. This comes with the debonair air spring, but crappy motion control damper. I have had the shop swap the Charger 2.0 damper out of the Remedy into the Yari, effectively making it THE EXACT SAME fork - except for the stickers!

    Here is where my problem begins. For what it's worth, both are 160mm travel forks.

    I copied the settings from my remedy to the slash: 0 tokens, 62 psi and relevant rebound.

    Initial rides saw me blowing through the travel, and bottoming out quite hard. I upped the pressure eventually to 76 PSI and lost small bump sensitivilty. No good. So I installed one token with little difference. No good. I installed another token, a little better, dropped the pressure. Long story short, I now have 3 tokens installed and I'm running 64 PSI to achieve a similar feeling of what the Remedy had with 0 tokens and 62PSI.

    Considering that I am running the exact same damper out of the remedy - with the same debonair air spring and the same fork travel, how is it that the setup can be so wildly different?

    Could it be oil volume levels or oil weight? Any technitians out there that can give me some advice - the settings are so different that it has me a little worried. I'd like to go back to the shop with some info.

    Thanks.
    That's really weird - it sounds like the air springs _must_ be different (even though they shouldn't be, according to the specs). Your upgraded Yari sounds like it's performing about the same as my 2020 Lyrik Ultimate 160. I'm 68kg, running 3 tokens and 60psi, HSC all off, LSC 14 clicks out, LSR 4 clicks out. The fork is supple off the top and uses 90% travel when I'm charging hard downhill. To me, it feels like it ramps up a little too fast (not enough mid-stroke), but 2 tokens wasn't enough. I think I need 2.5 tokens :-/

    Anyway, just a data point to say that regardless of what the Lyrik on your Remedy was doing, your upgraded Yari doesn't sound much different from my new Lyrik.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotow View Post
    That's really weird - it sounds like the air springs _must_ be different (even though they shouldn't be, according to the specs). Your upgraded Yari sounds like it's performing about the same as my 2020 Lyrik Ultimate 160. I'm 68kg, running 3 tokens and 60psi, HSC all off, LSC 14 clicks out, LSR 4 clicks out. The fork is supple off the top and uses 90% travel when I'm charging hard downhill. To me, it feels like it ramps up a little too fast (not enough mid-stroke), but 2 tokens wasn't enough. I think I need 2.5 tokens :-/

    Anyway, just a data point to say that regardless of what the Lyrik on your Remedy was doing, your upgraded Yari doesn't sound much different from my new Lyrik.
    Cheers GoTow. I appreciate the feedback. I agree, I don't have enough mid stroke support. Do you have the 2.1 Charger damper? And do you feel much of a difference with the 14 clicks of LSC? Interesting about the number of tokens. I say this because with the Lyrik update to the 2.0 Charger damper and debonair spring - most people were reducing the number of tokens as it provided more progression.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff76 View Post
    Cheers GoTow. I appreciate the feedback. I agree, I don't have enough mid stroke support. Do you have the 2.1 Charger damper? And do you feel much of a difference with the 14 clicks of LSC? Interesting about the number of tokens. I say this because with the Lyrik update to the 2.0 Charger damper and debonair spring - most people were reducing the number of tokens as it provided more progression.
    My Lyrik's got the Charger 2.1 (RC2) damper and Debonair spring. The LSC adjustment definitely makes a difference - if I increase damping to less than 8 clicks from full closed, the fork starts to feel pretty harsh on chundery stuff. Since I'm not very heavy and ride fairly rocky, fast trails (Denver area), I usually run both compression and rebound very light with volume spacers to ramp the fork up for bigger hits. Slower compression and rebound cause the suspension to pack up and rattle your teeth out.

    And to be clear, I wasn't saying that there isn't enough mid-stroke support - on the contrary, the Lyrik Ultimate seems pretty supportive. But if you really plow it into things and thus need good ramp up toward the end of the stroke, three tokens seems to make the "mid" part of mid-stroke pretty short - it's super-supple at the beginning, but very quickly ramps up. Like I said, I want 2.5 tokens instead of 3.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotow View Post
    I'm 68kg, running 3 tokens and 60psi, HSC all off, LSC 14 clicks out, LSR 4 clicks out.
    Whoops - correction: LSC is 12 clicks out.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotow View Post
    Like I said, I want 2.5 tokens instead of 3.
    Cut the last one. About 8/9mm from the top of the thread. You’ll get 1/2 token

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff76 View Post
    Hi, I'm looking for some help on my Lyrik setup. I'm 65kg, and a very experienced rider and very fussy with my suspenion.

    I am coming from a 2018 Trek Remedy 8. Initial setup was 2 tokens with approx 60 psi.

    I upgraded the Lyrik to both the new Charger 2.0 damper and debonair airspring. My setup then went to 0 tokens, and 62psi. The fork felt brilliant. Superb initial bump response, no bottom out and I was usually using 90% of travel. Great ramp up at the end of the stroke.

    I have now purchased (new) a 2019 Slash 8 with the Yari. This comes with the debonair air spring, but crappy motion control damper. I have had the shop swap the Charger 2.0 damper out of the Remedy into the Yari, effectively making it THE EXACT SAME fork - except for the stickers!

    Here is where my problem begins. For what it's worth, both are 160mm travel forks.

    I copied the settings from my remedy to the slash: 0 tokens, 62 psi and relevant rebound.

    Initial rides saw me blowing through the travel, and bottoming out quite hard. I upped the pressure eventually to 76 PSI and lost small bump sensitivilty. No good. So I installed one token with little difference. No good. I installed another token, a little better, dropped the pressure. Long story short, I now have 3 tokens installed and I'm running 64 PSI to achieve a similar feeling of what the Remedy had with 0 tokens and 62PSI.

    Considering that I am running the exact same damper out of the remedy - with the same debonair air spring and the same fork travel, how is it that the setup can be so wildly different?

    Could it be oil volume levels or oil weight? Any technitians out there that can give me some advice - the settings are so different that it has me a little worried. I'd like to go back to the shop with some info.

    Thanks.
    Has anyone been into the air chambers to see how much grease the factory packed in there?
    Sometimes it's horrific.
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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Cut the last one. About 8/9mm from the top of the thread. You’ll get 1/2 token
    Hah! OK. I thought they were hollow, so cutting them wouldn't work, but have to admit I hadn't actually looked yet to see if that's the case. Obviously not :-)

    Thanks!

  106. #106
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    I'm looking for some help with my Lyrik Ultimate pressure settings. I was hoping to setup the fork a bit softer than what was recommended. I weigh 220 pounds and RS website suggests running 104 psi. I initially set the fork up with 95 psi and now I am down to 85. I am not liking the fork on fast small bump chutter. It feels really harsh to a fox 36 that I run on my other bike. Would it be recommended to go down more PSI to get more plush feeling or am I missing the boat and should be going up past 104? Thanks for any suggestions.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgodbout View Post
    I'm looking for some help with my Lyrik Ultimate pressure settings. I was hoping to setup the fork a bit softer than what was recommended. I weigh 220 pounds and RS website suggests running 104 psi. I initially set the fork up with 95 psi and now I am down to 85. I am not liking the fork on fast small bump chutter. It feels really harsh to a fox 36 that I run on my other bike. Would it be recommended to go down more PSI to get more plush feeling or am I missing the boat and should be going up past 104? Thanks for any suggestions.
    It's the damper and air spring tuning can't fix that.
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  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgodbout View Post
    I'm looking for some help with my Lyrik Ultimate pressure settings. I was hoping to setup the fork a bit softer than what was recommended. I weigh 220 pounds and RS website suggests running 104 psi. I initially set the fork up with 95 psi and now I am down to 85. I am not liking the fork on fast small bump chutter. It feels really harsh to a fox 36 that I run on my other bike. Would it be recommended to go down more PSI to get more plush feeling or am I missing the boat and should be going up past 104? Thanks for any suggestions.
    What are your damper settings? and what tyre/rims/pressures?
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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgodbout View Post
    I'm looking for some help with my Lyrik Ultimate pressure settings. I was hoping to setup the fork a bit softer than what was recommended. I weigh 220 pounds and RS website suggests running 104 psi. I initially set the fork up with 95 psi and now I am down to 85. I am not liking the fork on fast small bump chutter. It feels really harsh to a fox 36 that I run on my other bike. Would it be recommended to go down more PSI to get more plush feeling or am I missing the boat and should be going up past 104? Thanks for any suggestions.
    TL;DR: Go back to 104 and make sure your rebound damping is 4 clicks out from fully closed counting 0,1,2,3,4. (or one or two more).

    The absence of plushness on small bump chatter is "packing". By softening the air spring to 85 psi there hasn't been enough spring force to rebound the fork between hits.

    For chassis control, set your HSC to maximum (on Charger 2.1 you'll need maximum as a starting point). Try your LSC somewhere in the range of 5-9 clicks in from full open. The harshness you have been experiencing is rebound packing; you have a lot of scope on LSC adjustment before you encounter harshness.

    This setup will be close for aggressive riding. Don't try and assess how it is working in the car park. Don't worry if you're not using full travel. DO worry if you are using all your travel on gentle trails.

    "Plush" is an out of fashion term for what we forum-dwellers look to get out of a fork. Think of it like the mattress on your bed. Too soft would best fit the description of "plush" but is desperately uncomfortable. Support is good.

    You haven't mentioned fork travel or tokens fitted so I've made a few assumptions. The latest generation RS spring (IME) works best with fewer tokens but can still need a token (or so) to soften the topout depending on the spring travel.

  110. #110
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    Thanks so much for the recommendations. I will set the fork similar to the above suggestion. I was just trying to use their suggestion on their site to use more sag and less pressure for a softer feel. Adjusting the HSC and LSC seem to have confused me. I started with them both in the middle and haven't found any big difference when turning them. I'll let you know after I get some riding in with the new settings.

    To answer the other question from above. I have DT Swiss carbon wheels and Maxxis minion tires set at 28 PSI up front. My other bike that has the fox 36 is a plus bike and I run 17 PSI on the front tire. This might also explain why the fork feels so harsh?

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgodbout View Post
    I'm looking for some help with my Lyrik Ultimate pressure settings. I was hoping to setup the fork a bit softer than what was recommended. I weigh 220 pounds and RS website suggests running 104 psi. I initially set the fork up with 95 psi and now I am down to 85. I am not liking the fork on fast small bump chutter. It feels really harsh to a fox 36 that I run on my other bike. Would it be recommended to go down more PSI to get more plush feeling or am I missing the boat and should be going up past 104? Thanks for any suggestions.
    I owned coil charger1 boxxer, pike charger 1, mattoc 2 IRT and coil, xf sweep and tested 180mm lyrik charger2 rc. None of them stock was so good on high freq bumps, but mattoc was best of them. Now got fox36 grip2. Im blown away by this fork. Its a little stiff on small bumps when going slow, but when speed up Im spechless. Its so composed. I just hope this performance will never go away hahaha. With too little compression on high freq bumps fork become a vibrator or maybe too tight bushings. My f36 has bushings done.

    PS Im 165lbs and 23psi in front wheel.

  112. #112
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    Tyre pressure is the biggest factor in harshness, you really want it as low as you can get away with. Larger volume tyres and rims will have lower pressure so you won’t want to be all the way down to 17 but try dropping 2 psi at a time and see if things improve.

    I would try, in order-
    Lower tyre pressure
    Lower air pressure (you’re probably as low as you can go though)
    Faster or slower rebound
    Less low speed Compression
    More or less high speed compression

  113. #113
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    So, I want to thank you for your suggestion. The Lyrik was amazing this afternoon after I did the above changes you suggested. I also lowered the PSI in my tires a bit and that also contributed to a great ride. I feel like I owe you a beer or at least a bunch of gratitude!!

  114. #114
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    After several long rides on a new Lyric Ultimate I can say this fork feels very soft (not in a bad way). The damping feels very light (both compression and rebound). A lot of travel is used when the fork takes a hit. I'm running quite a bit more psi than stock recommended. This is all ok as I've got it on a bike that I use for long distance, backcountry-ish, choppy trails. Five hours in on very rough trails and I want a fork that can soak up the chatter. That's what I got if for. So, for the given application I find this fork very good. I would not want my DH bike's fork to feel like this - I'd want it more supportive (which I did with a custom damper). That said I do wish I could run more compression damping in the event I'd need it for different trails (though I've not run the LSC more than 2/3rds in yet).

    Weighing in at about 185# geared up.

    As to a fork feeling harsh, no. I totally agree with the above post. If I ran too much tire pressure I'd bet I could even make this fork feel stiff. Aside from sag I don't even try to dial suspension in until I'm settled on my tire psi. Its the first thing in setting suspension. To stiff a tire and you'll forever chase you tail trying to get your dampers to feel right.
    Last edited by Miker J; 1 Week Ago at 07:06 PM.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Tyre pressure is the biggest factor in harshness, you really want it as low as you can get away with. Larger volume tyres and rims will have lower pressure so you won’t want to be all the way down to 17 but try dropping 2 psi at a time and see if things improve.
    When you run pressures that low response and handling suffers. Rim and sidewall damage is also an issue if you ride near rocks and the uncontrolled low frequency rebound can be awful.

    I run 25psi on a 2.6" front (30psi on 2.3). I haven't suffered significant rim damage since going 2.6" but I still get the occasional pinch flat.

    If you need to run flat tyres to avoid harshness, then your suspension sucks.
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    When you run pressures that low response and handling suffers. Rim and sidewall damage is also an issue if you ride near rocks and the uncontrolled low frequency rebound can be awful.

    I run 25psi on a 2.6" front (30psi on 2.3). I haven't suffered significant rim damage since going 2.6" but I still get the occasional pinch flat.

    If you need to run flat tyres to avoid harshness, then your suspension sucks.
    I would say if you’re having to run high pressure to avoid rim strike then your suspension is “sub optimal” and lacking compliance somewhere. Maybe too much unsprung weight as well

    The tyre is the first line of absorbing a bump, it can respond faster and loses less energy than movement in the fork, a soft tyre rolls faster (yes) and importantly has more grip so any way to bring that down without burping or rim damage is going to be hugely beneficial. Even a formula one car uses its tyres for most of its bump absorbing (although not after 2021!)

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I would say if you’re having to run high pressure to avoid rim strike then your suspension is “sub optimal” and lacking compliance somewhere. Maybe too much unsprung weight as well
    The easiest way to see the problem with that statement is to lower the pressure further and see what happens. Rim strikes then happen more and cannot be resolved by any useful change to the suspension.

    Particularly when you're going softer and softer to protect the rim, then run out of travel and suddenly spike forces on the wheel, slamming that rim into the ground extra hard.

    The opposite to your claim is true. Only with good suspension, with excellent compliance, can you run higher tyre pressures on rough trails without killing your wrists.

    The other issue with big volumes at lower pressure is the low frequency rebound which can cause handling issues under fast riding. That's why plus and fat bikes get out of control at higher speeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    The tyre is the first line of absorbing a bump, it can respond faster and loses less energy than movement in the fork, a soft tyre rolls faster (yes) and importantly has more grip so any way to bring that down without burping or rim damage is going to be hugely beneficial. Even a formula one car uses its tyres for most of its bump absorbing (although not after 2021!)
    If you're reference Schwalbe's marketing test showing bigger and softer tyres roll better, then you need to remember the fine-print. They conducted that test in a soft dirt field.

    Post back when XC races are won on 2.6" rubber at 17psi: https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/08/pro...rc-race-bikes/

    Formula 1 run on the most groomed roads on the planet. The polar opposite of MTB trails. They also run extremely stiff suspension to keep the car level and maintain aerodynamics. It's not a useful comparison at all.

    If you cannot run your tyres tight due to harshness, then your suspension sucks.
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  118. #118
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    "Speedo and Tach" is what they were called apparently!

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-img_0121.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Particularly when you're going softer and softer to protect the rim, then run out of travel and suddenly spike forces on the wheel, slamming that rim into the ground extra hard.
    Is that right? Where have you seen this happen? In my experience the tyre reaches it maximumm displacement before the suspension has even begun moving

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The opposite to your claim is true. Only with good suspension, with excellent compliance, can you run higher tyre pressures on rough trails without killing your wrists.
    But what is that achieving? Most people run low 20's or high teens with no issues, maybe mid-high 20's for higher speeds or where rock strike is a bigger issue but thats an exception, not the norm. Higher pressure reduces your tyre footprint and grip as well as impeding forward momentum


    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you're reference Schwalbe's marketing test showing bigger and softer tyres roll better, then you need to remember the fine-print. They conducted that test in a soft dirt field.
    Funnily enough I don't get my data from marketing releases so I missed that one. I got it from the many independent studies done on the subject

    Post back when XC races are won on 2.6" rubber at 17psi: https://bikerumor.com/2019/02/08/pro...rc-race-bikes/

    What was that link about? Something to do with that Nino guy using 16/17psi? Does he win races?
    RS Lyrik Ultimate-img_0134.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you cannot run your tyres tight due to harshness, then your suspension sucks.
    Ever think of trying a more mature response?
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  119. #119
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    Is it just me or do these pro racers play games when they do one of those "Pinkbike bike setup Q&A's?!" I've seen several now say or show they're using 1-3" of stem spacers... and then you see them on the same bike in the race and their bars are slammed to the headset, LOL! And don't tell me "depends on the course" because the ones in question were amongst the steepest/rockliest courses on the circuit. My educated guess would be what these pros are telling you and what they actually do are two completely different things (as if to not give their competitors any secerets). So... NO, I do not believe for a second that Nino runs 16psi tire pressures, LOL! In fact he's the one that I figured out was lying first with his stem setup, LMAO!

    Have FUN!

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  120. #120
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    Why is that not a believable pressure? What is your evidence it wouldn’t be appropriate? Even when you watch an Xc race you can see how soft his tyres look

  121. #121
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    Only posting to say this pressure argument is making me chuckle my way through lunch.

    I'm currently running 29x3 Dhr2 front.
    For smooth I preferred 12psi,but for the ability to smash through anything with no worries of a rim out I'm running 14 psi.

    When I run higher I start bouncing off stuff and losing grip.

    So the £££ question is, when my shiny new damper arrives, will I be able to run higher or lower!

    It's been designed by Manitou's #1 fan, and is allegedly the best fork he has ever ridden =)

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    Is it just me or do these pro racers play games when they do one of those "Pinkbike bike setup Q&A's?!" I've seen several now say or show they're using 1-3" of stem spacers... and then you see them on the same bike in the race and their bars are slammed to the headset, LOL! And don't tell me "depends on the course" because the ones in question were amongst the steepest/rockliest courses on the circuit. My educated guess would be what these pros are telling you and what they actually do are two completely different things (as if to not give their competitors any secerets). So... NO, I do not believe for a second that Nino runs 16psi tire pressures, LOL! In fact he's the one that I figured out was lying first with his stem setup, LMAO!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN

    Good point.

    But it is possible that for every day rides, both fun and training, they set their bike up differently than race day. Higher bars and lower tire pressures let you ride longer but not necessarily harder. Race day set up is for a lower more aggressive posture with a lower bar and higher tires pressure to avoid pinch flats at higher speeds.

    Just maybe.

  123. #123
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    Are you guys accounting for tire inserts (e.g., Cush Core, Vittoria Airliners, etc.)?

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    are you guys talking about the lyric or tire pressure???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaterra View Post
    are you guys talking about the lyric or tire pressure???
    This is mtbr....so I expect this thread will soon drift into "what color grips will make my fork work best?" soon.....

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Is that right? Where have you seen this happen? In my experience the tyre reaches it maximumm displacement before the suspension has even begun moving
    Max displacement on a tyre is a rim-strike. Are you saying you hit rim strike before your suspension fork starts moving?

    Because that sounds really, really, awful.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    But what is that achieving? Most people run low 20's or high teens with no issues, maybe mid-high 20's for higher speeds or where rock strike is a bigger issue but thats an exception, not the norm. Higher pressure reduces your tyre footprint and grip as well as impeding forward momentum
    Yes higher pressure reduces your footprint. If you're only riding on sand/snow/mud that's a big concern and you should probably get a fat or plus bike.

    But the majority of riders are on packed trails where flotation isn't a concern and grip is more than sufficient.

    Nino does not win XC races on 16/17psi. The link does not list pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Ever think of trying a more mature response?
    This one is perfect already:

    If you cannot run your tyres tight due to harshness, then your suspension sucks.
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  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant View Post
    Only posting to say this pressure argument is making me chuckle my way through lunch.

    I'm currently running 29x3 Dhr2 front.
    For smooth I preferred 12psi,but for the ability to smash through anything with no worries of a rim out I'm running 14 psi.

    When I run higher I start bouncing off stuff and losing grip.

    So the £££ question is, when my shiny new damper arrives, will I be able to run higher or lower!

    It's been designed by Manitou's #1 fan, and is allegedly the best fork he has ever ridden =)
    It sure will be interesting. Tracking says it's currently joining the riots in HK.

    I was not looking forward to pulling the damper out of my own fork to send you while the couriers hunted that one down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Are you guys accounting for tire inserts (e.g., Cush Core, Vittoria Airliners, etc.)?
    No. Because they still destroy rims on rocky terrain. A tyre with air in it distributes the forces from the ground around the rim. You simply run more pressure to avoid rim-striikes and keep spreading loads right around the rim.

    A tyre with a rubber insert encourages people to run lower pressures and live with rim-strikes. But those rim-strikes still place heavy point loads on the rims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaterra View Post
    are you guys talking about the lyric or tire pressure???
    Thread is now in full hijack mode. Sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nino does not win XC races on 16/17psi. The link does not list pressure.
    Um, yeah he does. Which is what you specifically asked for. I posted a picture from this article in case it didn't show up for you-

    https://www.redbull.com/us-en/nino-schurter-bike-check

    Average pressures in xc are low 20's, enduro is about 22/25 and dh 24/26. I think these guys have worked things out pretty well
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Um, yeah he does. Which is what you specifically asked for. I posted a picture from this article in case it didn't show up for you-

    https://www.redbull.com/us-en/nino-schurter-bike-check

    Average pressures in xc are low 20's, enduro is about 22/25 and dh 24/26. I think these guys have worked things out pretty well
    That's a different bike and I'd suggest 16.6 and 17.4psi are a piss-take. Other bike checks from 2019 have him on 2.25" tyres.

    Losing a race because you burped a tyre would be a significant problem at UCI level.

    Minaar does quite well with hard tyres. 26-32 in this article, others claim mid 30's: https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/gui...ws/3191/expand

    But back to rim-strikes. Are you saying you completely collapse the tyre before your fork reacts to a bump?
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    I never hit the rim, but in general almost always compresses as far as it is going to before the suspension starts moving. Haven't filmed my own bike yet but every other slowmo I've filmed or watched confirms this

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-bottom-out.jpg

    In a drop to flat it actually compresses, rebound and then starts compressing again at bottom out. A bump just has the one oscillation
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I never hit the rim, but in general almost always compresses as far as it is going to before the suspension starts moving. Haven't filmed my own bike yet but every other slowmo I've filmed or watched confirms this

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In a drop to flat it actually compresses, rebound and then starts compressing again at bottom out. A bump just has the one oscillation
    A drop to flat tries to bind the fork, so it's not the usual sequence of events.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    A drop to flat tries to bind the fork, so it's not the usual sequence of events.
    Ok, show us the usual sequence?
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Ok, show us the usual sequence?
    Bike is moving forwards, hits bump on wheel slightly forward of contact patch, fork and tyre compress along line of action of the fork.

    Etc.
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Bike is moving forwards, hits bump on wheel slightly forward of contact patch, fork and tyre compress along line of action of the fork.

    Etc.
    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...y/english/show
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    This one is perfect already:

    If you cannot run your tyres tight due to harshness, then your suspension sucks.[/QUOTE]

    If a tyre is set at 25 psi and a fork at 70 psi what will compress first from a impact?

    Tyre and fork pressure are subject to speed, weight and riding style.

    Its fairly well documented that xc riders now run low pressures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sean44 View Post
    If a tyre is set at 25 psi and a fork at 70 psi what will compress first from a impact?
    Is this a rhetorical question?

    My answer (at equilibrium (sag) in a frictionless/massless model) is they both move at the same time.
    Last edited by petercarm; 6 Days Ago at 04:19 AM. Reason: clean up quoted message

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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Is this a rhetorical question?

    My answer (at equilibrium (sag) in a frictionless/massless model) is they both move at the same time.
    My point is its a balance. An over inflated tyre will make the suspension feel harsh on small bumps.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Is this a rhetorical question?

    My answer (at equilibrium (sag) in a frictionless/massless model) is they both move at the same time.
    A tyre has very little friction and unsprung mass, a suspension forI has lots of friction comparatively

  139. #139
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    I don't know if setting up the suspension specifically for higher pressure fixes the lack of grip, but man, pressure makes a HUGE difference on grip.

    I checked pressure (22psi Front) before a ride in 30F weather and by the time we turned downhill it was 60F. I went down literally the first corner of the trail when the front tire just skipped right off the trail. I thought it was me, but the bike was super sketchy until I finally just stopped and dropped air pressure back to where it should have been. Then everything was back to normal and gripping hard.

    Maybe setup and adjusting my body position would have kept me from going down (or just being use to the lack of grip if I always rode that high of pressures?) but a 2psi difference turned into a couple weeks of healing back skin. I can't say I have any interest on the high pressure train.

  140. #140
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    I don't have the time to create you a nice little animation. But come down here to ride and I'll happily show you.

    Just after New Year is looking pretty good for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by sean44 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    This one is perfect already:

    If you cannot run your tyres tight due to harshness, then your suspension sucks.
    If a tyre is set at 25 psi and a fork at 70 psi what will compress first from a impact?

    Tyre and fork pressure are subject to speed, weight and riding style.

    Its fairly well documented that xc riders now run low pressures.
    They compress together unless your fork binds. If the tyre runs out of travel first then you're going to have a bad time, but that depends on the shape of your bump.

    Square edged rocks cause more tyre deformation than flatter and softer ground. Hence they require more air pressure to avoid rim strikes.

    The absolute worst case to view tyre vs fork is the flat landing rear-first fork-slap-down that Jonno posted up higher. That's the extreme case showing the worst angle of attack for a fork and the resulting highest friction load.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    I don't know if setting up the suspension specifically for higher pressure fixes the lack of grip, but man, pressure makes a HUGE difference on grip.

    I checked pressure (22psi Front) before a ride in 30F weather and by the time we turned downhill it was 60F. I went down literally the first corner of the trail when the front tire just skipped right off the trail. I thought it was me, but the bike was super sketchy until I finally just stopped and dropped air pressure back to where it should have been. Then everything was back to normal and gripping hard.

    Maybe setup and adjusting my body position would have kept me from going down (or just being use to the lack of grip if I always rode that high of pressures?) but a 2psi difference turned into a couple weeks of healing back skin. I can't say I have any interest on the high pressure train.
    2psi change from 22psi is pretty minor. If you're blaming the temp rise for the pressure increase, then it isn't that much.

    30F (~17C) temp change is only 6% which would be a hair over 1 psi. No-one notices that.

    I find it pretty funny that you guys think mid 20's is high pressure.
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  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    A tyre has very little friction and unsprung mass, a suspension forI has lots of friction comparatively
    heh, heh. Indeed.

    Back when I was taking exams, an appropriate answer could be based on the information presented in the question and you had to be very wary of bringing in any assumptions unannounced. Given the paucity of detail in the question it was inevitable that some constraint needed to be added in order to give a plausibly correct answer and I chose the standard approach of beginning analysis with an "ideal" mechanism.

    I'm sure you spotted I was gently drawing attention to the question's possibly faulty rhetorical premise. What I read was: "I'm going to give you a small number and a big number so you'd have to be a prize dumbass to bet on the small number not moving first". Given my qualifier, I emphasised that the sprung systems are linked in series and exposed the counter-intuitive truth: both (tend) to deflect together.

    Now it gets interesting. Which deflects more?

    If we started with an argument of "psi>psi therefore the tyre moves" how can we get past all the unknowns and understand how a tyre carcass preloaded with hoop stresses deforms under load. Time for a 20 second google search...



    (Note: these are numbers from Specialized researching off-axis deflection of tyres on different rim sizes and I'll focus on a 30mm internal that is a size that many of us use and have to ignore the off-axis aspect as my 20 second google research didn't turn up any other numbers for direct radial loading)

    The value we see is a 33mm deflection for a 900N force. So simplifying, we see a spring rate of ~155 lb/in



    We see 900N occurring at fork deflection of ~120mm. So simplifying, we see a spring rate of ~43 lb/in. For comparative confirmation, Push AC3 spring rates range from 30-60 lb/in, so 43 is dead in the middle of what we might expect.

    Given the effective tyre spring stiffness is ~155 lb/in and the fork spring stiffness is ~43 lb/in, we now still have no consideration of mass or friction but we can see that a tyre is a much stiffer spring than our suspension.
    Last edited by petercarm; 6 Days Ago at 02:28 AM.

  142. #142
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    Nice post Peter. Do you know the diameter, width and pressures used for that graph?

    For spring rate reference. I run about 35 lb/in fork spring rates. The wheel rate (vertical) is closer to 40lb/in due to the head-angle.

    *edit*
    Reverse image search pulled it up here, but no background data: https://bikerumor.com/2014/06/24/new...-where-its-at/
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    Nice. Those numbers are reasonably within the ballpark I would expect to see. For sure tyre rates are much higher than fork springs, which is why the tyre is best suited to tracking high frequency bumps better than an air spring

    I've only done simple tests on the bike to measure tyre rate so far eg measure axle height unloaded and axle height loaded, but will have a dedicated fixture to measure rates properly in the dyno soon. Will one day get time to do some data logging comparing tyre pressure to damper speed and handlebar vibration in isolation too. I'm usually testing other things so tyre pressure has to stay at my preffered setting whenever I'm doing data acquisition
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    2psi change from 22psi is pretty minor. If you're blaming the temp rise for the pressure increase, then it isn't that much.

    30F (~17C) temp change is only 6% which would be a hair over 1 psi. No-one notices that.
    Ah, I've had 1-2 psi be the difference between the tire folding in a berm and ridding without an issue for years. I can absolutely feel 1-2psi on my particular setup.

    "High pressure" to me means being higher than that balance point of max grip and the tire not folding.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Nice. Those numbers are reasonably within the ballpark I would expect to see. For sure tyre rates are much higher than fork springs, which is why the tyre is best suited to tracking high frequency bumps better than an air spring

    I've only done simple tests on the bike to measure tyre rate so far eg measure axle height unloaded and axle height loaded, but will have a dedicated fixture to measure rates properly in the dyno soon. Will one day get time to do some data logging comparing tyre pressure to damper speed and handlebar vibration in isolation too. I'm usually testing other things so tyre pressure has to stay at my preffered setting whenever I'm doing data acquisition
    You can measure this with a scale, ruler and some time. You don't need a dyno for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Ah, I've had 1-2 psi be the difference between the tire folding in a berm and ridding without an issue for years. I can absolutely feel 1-2psi on my particular setup.

    "High pressure" to me means being higher than that balance point of max grip and the tire not folding.
    But 1-2psi (5-10%) isn't the difference between folding and not folding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    But 1-2psi (5-10%) isn't the difference between folding and not folding.

    Sorry? If you're already at the threshold, and you drop 2psi, then it absolutely *is* the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You can measure this with a scale, ruler and some time. You don't need a dyno for that.
    Yeah but it gives much more precise results and much faster, my time is precious
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Sorry? If you're already at the threshold, and you drop 2psi, then it absolutely *is* the difference.
    It's not. Because a tyre doesn't snap from holding shape to folded flat. There is still progression through of force vs pressure.

    It's not a cliff where you take a step too far and fall off the edge.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It's not. Because a tyre doesn't snap from holding shape to folded flat. There is still progression through of force vs pressure.

    It's not a cliff where you take a step too far and fall off the edge.

    Never said that it folded flat, nor did the person that brought up the subject.

    Clearly it'd be necessary to define rim width, tire size, rider weight and aggression, bike type, trail type, etc... in order to make any definitive claims.

    But even without all that pretty much any seasoned rider can tell you that if they take their normal/preferred pressure and drop 2psi, the ability to fold the tire over is dramatically increased.

    I typically run 13f/15r, tubeless, in 29 x 3" tires. If I'm lazy and don't check my pressures every ride I'll start folding them over in corners when getting after it. A quick check when I get back to the shop usually shows that I've lost less than 1psi, yet the effect is dramatic.

    On topic: These wheels/tries are run in a Lyrik, which is performing beautifully...

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    Dougal, I appreciate your perspective on my real life experience. I'm going to go ahead and stick to my own personal experience here though and go with, "on my bike, 2psi low or high can absolutely lead to laying on the ground wishing I had stuck to the normal pressures."

    FWIW, I switched from 2.8s to 2.5s and took your perspective into my thoughts as I changed the bike around with the new tires. I intentionally started above 30psi based solely on your posts. Tuned the suspension around it the best I know how. From like 26-32psi, the bike never really changed how it felt so I thought maybe you were on to something.

    Then something happened...
    26 to 24, slightly better grip...
    24 to 22 psi, more grip again but also better trail chatter compliance...

    22 up front is as low as ive gone thus far on this tire. On the 2.8, 18psi was the sweet spot. 16psi was where I stuffed myself into a berm from the tire folding.

    Petercarm
    I like where your head is at. I do have to put in a hypothetical though... Those graphs are essentially static tests.

    How would the dynamic response look on a high stiffness/high natural frequency system inline with a soft/low frequency system?

    Charts all day are going to have a hard time figuring it out. Slow motion video in the other hand would tell you quickly.

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    I've just realised there are two Mike's in this thread. Apologies if I'm getting you two mixed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Never said that it folded flat, nor did the person that brought up the subject.

    Clearly it'd be necessary to define rim width, tire size, rider weight and aggression, bike type, trail type, etc... in order to make any definitive claims.

    But even without all that pretty much any seasoned rider can tell you that if they take their normal/preferred pressure and drop 2psi, the ability to fold the tire over is dramatically increased.

    I typically run 13f/15r, tubeless, in 29 x 3" tires. If I'm lazy and don't check my pressures every ride I'll start folding them over in corners when getting after it. A quick check when I get back to the shop usually shows that I've lost less than 1psi, yet the effect is dramatic.

    On topic: These wheels/tries are run in a Lyrik, which is performing beautifully...
    Do you have any issues with the low frequency bounce in those 29x3 tyres? What do your trails look like and how fast do you run?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Dougal, I appreciate your perspective on my real life experience. I'm going to go ahead and stick to my own personal experience here though and go with, "on my bike, 2psi low or high can absolutely lead to laying on the ground wishing I had stuck to the normal pressures."

    FWIW, I switched from 2.8s to 2.5s and took your perspective into my thoughts as I changed the bike around with the new tires. I intentionally started above 30psi based solely on your posts. Tuned the suspension around it the best I know how. From like 26-32psi, the bike never really changed how it felt so I thought maybe you were on to something.

    Then something happened...
    26 to 24, slightly better grip...
    24 to 22 psi, more grip again but also better trail chatter compliance...

    22 up front is as low as ive gone thus far on this tire. On the 2.8, 18psi was the sweet spot. 16psi was where I stuffed myself into a berm from the tire folding.

    Petercarm
    I like where your head is at. I do have to put in a hypothetical though... Those graphs are essentially static tests.

    How would the dynamic response look on a high stiffness/high natural frequency system inline with a soft/low frequency system?

    Charts all day are going to have a hard time figuring it out. Slow motion video in the other hand would tell you quickly.
    You certainly get more grip from lower pressure. But also more drag as you force a donut shaped tyre to conform to flat ground. The tyre has to pucker and tread shuffle as it enters and leaves the contact patch. The breakeven point for tyre deformation vs ground deformation (hence best pressure for rolling resistance) is different for each combination of tyre and ground.

    I'm wondering what you need such low pressure grip for?

    The situations where I need max grip are usually hard front braking and hard cornering. In the former the front tyre has almost the full bike weight on it and full width contact patch. No issues with grip there. I could do with some more grip on some loose technical climbs, but that's a tradeoff between more climbing grip and not being able to drift the rear. I'm happy with my current compromise running a Maxxis aggressor.

    In corners I'm relying on the edge knobs and need the tyre to hold it's shape. That doesn't work for me at low pressures.
    I used to run 30/35 F/R on 2.3" DHF/DHR and now I'm running 25/35 on 2.6DHF/2.3Aggressor.

    Aside from rim damage I also have issues with tyre sidewall damage in the places I like to ride. This forces two things. Firstly tyres with knobs which protrude past the sidewalls for protection, secondly enough pressure to keep the sidewalls off the ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Petercarm
    I like where your head is at. I do have to put in a hypothetical though... Those graphs are essentially static tests.

    How would the dynamic response look on a high stiffness/high natural frequency system inline with a soft/low frequency system?

    Charts all day are going to have a hard time figuring it out. Slow motion video in the other hand would tell you quickly.
    Slow mo video is the best way to see whats happening as the contact area will vary a lot, and response from each component will be different depending on the frequency input

    I was going to set up a fork with wheel in the dyno to watch the effect on small bumps, but it would be a hellish tall assembly and the tower flex starts coming in to it. Plus a sine wave input isn't representative of a bump at all so the results wouldn't mean a whole lot. You do really need to test it on the trail.
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    Dougal, overall grip being higher and more trail chatter compliance just feels better to me every where, not one particular time.

    I will say though, I switched tires because I've managed to tear the sidewall on three 2.8DHR IIs this year. The plan was narrower + DD casing as the 2.8 DD tires get pretty heavy. I'm running the 2.5WT DHF Exo front and 2.4WT aggressor DD rear. 22/24 psi. Unfortunately, the aggressor kind of sucks compared to the DHR II on braking grip.

    As for rolling resistance... I'm fat...I roll faster than ALL my friends downhill. Regardless of tire or wheel size. I routinely coast by my buddies while they are tucked and pedaling and I'm comfortably sitting up and could be eating a cheeseburger. FAT >> tire rolling resistance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Do you have any issues with the low frequency bounce in those 29x3 tyres? What do your trails look like and how fast do you run?

    Not if the pressures are right. Ledgy, rocky, kitty litter over hardpack desert trails. Zero organic dirt -- all mineral soil and rock. Speed varies by ride, crew, mood, and is relative anyway.

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Dougal, overall grip being higher and more trail chatter compliance just feels better to me every where, not one particular time.

    I will say though, I switched tires because I've managed to tear the sidewall on three 2.8DHR IIs this year. The plan was narrower + DD casing as the 2.8 DD tires get pretty heavy. I'm running the 2.5WT DHF Exo front and 2.4WT aggressor DD rear. 22/24 psi. Unfortunately, the aggressor kind of sucks compared to the DHR II on braking grip.

    As for rolling resistance... I'm fat...I roll faster than ALL my friends downhill. Regardless of tire or wheel size. I routinely coast by my buddies while they are tucked and pedaling and I'm comfortably sitting up and could be eating a cheeseburger. FAT >> tire rolling resistance
    Yeah the aggressor is made to not grip much when upright. Which is a good or bad thing depending on your point of view. Massive change going to/from that and DHR2 or HR2 on the back.

    Rolling resistance still matters for all my riding that isn't chairlift or shuttling. Which is the 98% of the time I earned the downhill. I stick with more air pressure over DD casings for much the same reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Not if the pressures are right. Ledgy, rocky, kitty litter over hardpack desert trails. Zero organic dirt -- all mineral soil and rock. Speed varies by ride, crew, mood, and is relative anyway.
    What's your gearing?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    What's your gearing?

    26 x 10/52.

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    Rolling resistance vs tyre pressure isn’t a linear relationship. Lots of good tests have been done on this, there’s a break point where increasing pressure starts rolling slower

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Not if the pressures are right. Ledgy, rocky, kitty litter over hardpack desert trails. Zero organic dirt -- all mineral soil and rock. Speed varies by ride, crew, mood, and is relative anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    26 x 10/52.
    Most of the plus tyre guys are running lower gearing. It seems to be more of the rock crawling end of the spectrum than the WRC end. The same sort of trails and riding suit the lower gearing and fatter tyres. No-one seems to run higher gears and plus rubber.

    The tyre bounce is really interesting and I've had a lot of people say the same. They get a zone of horrible bouncing instability with 3+ inch tyres and are able to solve it by going lower in pressure. This actually makes the bouncing frequency lower, which isn't a good thing but at the same time reduces the bouncing forces enough that it reduces the effect to a manageable level.

    It's like swapping a big dog pulling on a leash to a small dog pulling on a leash. You've still got the pulling but now you're not being dragged off after a rabbit.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The tyre bounce is really interesting and I've had a lot of people say the same. They get a zone of horrible bouncing instability with 3+ inch tyres and are able to solve it by going lower in pressure. This actually makes the bouncing frequency lower, which isn't a good thing but at the same time reduces the bouncing forces enough that it reduces the effect to a manageable level.
    What I'd expect (from where I left off last time) is that a normal frequency response from a tyre/suspension combination should show two distinct resonances (suspension and tyre). I'd expect these to be separated and for suspension resonance (the lower) to be located somewhere between the expected lowest frequency inputs to be attenuated and the highest frequency rider inputs to be transmitted. I'd expect the general form to be a low frequency pass filtration.

    Something like:

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-5-figure5-1.png

    Faheem, Ahmad and Faridul Alam. “The Suspension Dynamic Analysis for a Quarter Car Model and Half Car Model.” (2006).

    What usually happens when you make resonant modes more coincident is that amplitude (when resonance occurs) becomes more severe and the phase shift will also be doubled. Attenuation after resonance will be sharper.

    Moving to plus size tyres we'd be expecting tyre spring rate to decrease which implies a lower frequency resonance. When that frequency has become problematic, a user further lowering tyre pressure is tending towards coincident resonances. Overall, the filter will still effectively attenuate high frequencies (small bump) but will have have a narrower sweet spot and will be less capable for receiving abrupt (higher frequency) inputs. This intuitively is what we feel we get from plus size tyres.

    If we take the argument to the absurd and imagine the opposite of a flaccid plus tyre i.e. a rigid tyre, the system reduces to a single degree of freedom with a single resonance (suspension) and we lose all high frequency attenuation.

    RS Lyrik Ultimate-7-figure3-1.jpg

    Panananda, Nuttarut et al. “The effect of cubic damping in an automotive vehicle suspension model.” (2012).

    Again, this is intuitively appropriate. A rigid tyre would pass all "buzz" onto the suspension which it would then pass through to the rider.

    Apologies for referring to automotive examples but they are the most citable. My takeaway from this is that a pneumatic tyre and spring/damper suspension works very effectively as a low pass filter. I would be aiming for clear separation of the suspension and tyre resonances, without taking the tyre resonance so high that attenuation is lost in critical middle frequencies commonly encountered.

    None of the above considers digressive damping so I am comfortable that the googled "science" leaves plenty of scope for creative implementation.

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    What I'd expect (from where I left off last time) is that a normal frequency response from a tyre/suspension combination should show two distinct resonances (suspension and tyre). I'd expect these to be separated and for suspension resonance (the lower) to be located somewhere between the expected lowest frequency inputs to be attenuated and the highest frequency rider inputs to be transmitted. I'd expect the general form to be a low frequency pass filtration.

    Something like:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	5-Figure5-1.png 
Views:	26 
Size:	12.0 KB 
ID:	1292783

    Faheem, Ahmad and Faridul Alam. “The Suspension Dynamic Analysis for a Quarter Car Model and Half Car Model.” (2006).

    What usually happens when you make resonant modes more coincident is that amplitude (when resonance occurs) becomes more severe and the phase shift will also be doubled. Attenuation after resonance will be sharper.

    Moving to plus size tyres we'd be expecting tyre spring rate to decrease which implies a lower frequency resonance. When that frequency has become problematic, a user further lowering tyre pressure is tending towards coincident resonances. Overall, the filter will still effectively attenuate high frequencies (small bump) but will have have a narrower sweet spot and will be less capable for receiving abrupt (higher frequency) inputs. This intuitively is what we feel we get from plus size tyres.

    If we take the argument to the absurd and imagine the opposite of a flaccid plus tyre i.e. a rigid tyre, the system reduces to a single degree of freedom with a single resonance (suspension) and we lose all high frequency attenuation.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	7-Figure3-1.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	71.4 KB 
ID:	1292787

    Panananda, Nuttarut et al. “The effect of cubic damping in an automotive vehicle suspension model.” (2012).

    Again, this is intuitively appropriate. A rigid tyre would pass all "buzz" onto the suspension which it would then pass through to the rider.

    Apologies for referring to automotive examples but they are the most citable. My takeaway from this is that a pneumatic tyre and spring/damper suspension works very effectively as a low pass filter. I would be aiming for clear separation of the suspension and tyre resonances, without taking the tyre resonance so high that attenuation is lost in critical middle frequencies commonly encountered.

    None of the above considers digressive damping so I am comfortable that the googled "science" leaves plenty of scope for creative implementation.
    Depending on your unsprung weight, springs and dampers you can acheive 6-10Hz natural frequency against the ground and response drops above that. It would be interesting to see what response a tyre can acheive.

    10Hz at 10m/s (36km/h) is only one bump per metre! It's obvious we're doing at least 5x better than that.

    A soft tyre transfer graph would be very interesting.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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