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  1. #1
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    Rockshox Technologies

    Hello All,

    I'm trying to get my 2016 Reba RL setup decently, and I keep on running into the marketing names for all the damping features this fork has, but can't actually find information on how they function / what they're doing inside the fork. If I could understand how they function, I'd be at a much better starting point for tuning this fork.

    (Note - I swapped to an RCT3 damper & matching rebound damper from a 2016 SID / Bluto, so some of these questions refer to that setup as well).

    (Note 2 - I have already found and read the link below. It helps a bunch, but left me with some questions still - FAQLoad - Rockshox RCT3 damper)

    Here's the list:

    Rapid Recovery Rebound - how does it work?
    Dig valve - what is is and how does it work?
    RCT3 damper - does LSC adjustment only work in open mode, or all 3 modes?
    RCT3 damper - how does pedal mode work?

    And if anyone has tips for setting this fork up to be supple / plush on the small bumps / chatter without too much brake dive / bobbing - this is my end goal. My previous Fox Fit CTD damper was so much plusher on the small bumps / chatter, as is my old Fox RLC damper on my spare/old bike.

    Thanks in advance.
    Mark

  2. #2
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    -The rebound adjustment influences how quickly the fork returns to full extension when it is unloaded. Rapid Recovery Rebound is a new tune that lets the fork extend more quickly when the fork is deep in its travel and unloaded; the new piston and shim stack can allow oil to pass through more quickly before it's a restriction. To summarize- the new fork is smoother, and i like that you can run an extra click or two of LSR without it getting harsh.

    -Dig valve was a redesigned rebound piston that flows more oil than the older design. It was a necessary change to implement RRR, so advertising it is mostly marketing.

    -As i recall the LSC knob is almost only relevant in the Open position. It doesn't really matter though; set the fork up so it handles correctly in Open, and the other 2 positions are goofy crap added in response to customer expectation, so use them as you see fit. The fork should be set up so Open position is controlled and comfortable on descents, and the other settings are whatever follows.

    -Pedal mode closes 2 ports that were allowed to free bleed in the Open position (they might be restrictions at very high speed events?). Now the impact has to be strong enough to open up the platform valve (compress the grey plastic wavy thing) before the fork can move. The Open shim stack is still in the path, but it's not a major player any more.

    All the rockshox forks i've owned have benefited from adding 1-2 volume reduction tokens over stock. It's simple to do. Also 5psi too high/low and it isn't right. 3cc too much/little oil in the damper can affect its performance to a surprising degree, and the bath oil needs to be changed every ~500 miles, with the damper oil changed every other bath oil swap. These are good forks and maintaining/tuning them is pretty easy, but it isn't obvious.





    I haven't owned one of the new RCT3 forks, but i'm intimately acquainted with their predecessors. I probably have some details wrong, but the main ideas are solid.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  3. #3
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    Think Scott covered it for you, with the exception of the damper oil. In the older forks that used open bath dampers, the oil got dirty/broke down quicker, in the new close system, it does not and it is not nearly as easy to change, you have to have the tools and know how to bleed it properly - I just leave them now until something says differently performance wise, always do regular lowers service.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
    You're doing mtbr wrong, you're supposed to get increasingly offended by the implications that you're doing ANYTHING wrong.

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    Thanks for the input guys. Good info.

    Couple more questions relating to this, and I guess I'll explain where I'm at to see if there's advice available specifically for my situation.

    Rapid recovery - sounds like it's a shim stack plus adjustable ports (when acting in the rebound direction). Is it correct to say that the shims will open under higher oil pressures (ie - fork deeper into it's travel) and as the fork extends, it switches back to port damping? I read a line somewhere in a review saying the Rockshox recommends you set it up 1 or 2 clicks slower than you normally would. Is this a fairly accurate statement?

    RCT3 - what does this stand for? How is it that there's both an RCT3 open bath damper available and also a Charger RCT3 damper? I understand what the charger damper is (closed bladder style damper) but I'm assuming RCT3 refers in some way to the settings available?

    Scottzg - you mentioned they're sensitive to pressure and oil volume. I don't deny it, but I find it bizarre that their oil spec is defined how it is. My fork specifies 106ml, but 71-77mm from top with +/- 2mm tolerance... I find it strange that it's such a specific volume, yet such a wide range of distance (10mm). If you consider a 28mm inside diameter (that's a guess), you could have close to a 25ml difference if you were at 69mm vs 79mm. And to be honest, I used the distance to crown measurement when I swapped my damper because I feel like I'll never get all of the oil out of the syringe / measuring cup / tube, etc, and therefore will never be putting the full intended amount of oil into the fork.

    LSC - Rockshox claims that the "RCT3 features an independent adjustment of low speed compression" (this was pulled from the Motion Control DNA page on their website). Looking at the diagram & pictures of from FAQLoad - Rockshox RCT3 damper , this does make sense that it would work for all modes. It looks to me like the oil first meets the compression damping piston, which has the LSC needle in the middle, as well as the main shim stack, and after it has gotten through this piston, it's up against the Motion Control spring tube, and the Open/Pedal/Lock modes control port opening here. In open mode, it seems that there's no restriction (the MoCo spring tube is irrelevant); in Peal mode the MoCo spring tube will need a large / fast enough impact to open itself (hence platform) and in Lock mode, the MoCo spring tube acts solely as a blow-off?

    Info on my application.
    2016 Reba RL with Rapid Recovery, 100mm of travel came on my 2016 Niner RKT. I wasn't happy with the small bump compliance from the start. Switched to 120mm air spring (every single 2017 RKT's was switched up to 120 based on rider feedback - so I figured it was an obvious switch), and started adding tokens, hoping that if I could get my starting air pressure lower, I'd improve the small bump compliance. I had it at 3 tokens, 125 psi, and it was okay.
    Sold some spare parts, had some money in the bike slush fund, had been reading how magical the RCT3 damper is, so I decided to pull the trigger. Bought the RCT3 damper & matching rebound assembly from a 2016 SID / Bluto. (Didn't want to do the RCT3 charger damper as it was yet another hundred dollars more....)
    I did one ride at 3 tokens 105psi with the RCT3 damper, and it felt scary how bouncy it was on rebound. It kept bouncing me off the trail (and once into a tree).
    I'm now down to 100psi and 2 tokens, and it's starting to feel better. I currently have the rebound set full slow, and this feels like where I would normally setup my rebound. So if I want to go two clicks slower, I'd need to start changing damping oil (to 7.5wt or 10wt?).
    I'm definitely happier with the RCT3 dampers small bump compliance (at least in open mode with LSC full -ve), but now I find it a bit soft when standing / pedaling and that it dives a bunch under braking. I'm guessing that with this fork / damper, it'll be a compromise between small bump compliance & bobbing / brake dive.

    If I were to change the oil weight to get the rebound damping closer to the middle of it's range, do you think it will have a significant negative effect on compression damping?

    Again, thanks for the info, and taking the time to read through this. I'm hoping that this thread can be a good source of concise, accurate information regarding Rockshox damper technologies.

    Cheers

  5. #5
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    PS - if Rockshox ever sees this, please stop with all the BS marketing terms. They're so incredibly confusing - so much so that you apparently can't even keep them straight on your own website. See - https://www.sram.com/rockshox/techno...sx3417pvc16zz9 - page title is Motion Control DNA, yet in the first paragraph, you're calling it Mission Control DNA? Seriously?

    Second paragraph, you're referring to Dual Flow Rebound, which isn't listed anywhere else in your "technologies" section. Is Dual Flow Rebound the same as Rapid Recovery? Is it different?

    And what is Motion Control DNA? What makes it different than Motion Control? What makes it different than Motion Control IS?

    It would be one thing if you offered tuning guides for your forks to help describe what features / knobs control what. But you don't. So we, the customer, are left wading through a pool of marketing bile that does nothing to actually help us get your product performing anywhere near it's max.

    Rant over.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Think Scott covered it for you, with the exception of the damper oil. In the older forks that used open bath dampers, the oil got dirty/broke down quicker, in the new close system, it does not and it is not nearly as easy to change, you have to have the tools and know how to bleed it properly - I just leave them now until something says differently performance wise, always do regular lowers service.
    This RCT3 is a variation of motion control, hence the recommendation for frequent oil changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    Thanks for the input guys. Good info.

    Couple more questions relating to this, and I guess I'll explain where I'm at to see if there's advice available specifically for my situation.

    Rapid recovery - sounds like it's a shim stack plus adjustable ports (when acting in the rebound direction). Is it correct to say that the shims will open under higher oil pressures (ie - fork deeper into it's travel) and as the fork extends, it switches back to port damping? I read a line somewhere in a review saying the Rockshox recommends you set it up 1 or 2 clicks slower than you normally would. Is this a fairly accurate statement? Yep, exactly right.


    RCT3 - what does this stand for?
    How is it that there's both an RCT3 open bath damper available and also a Charger RCT3 damper? I understand what the charger damper is (closed bladder style damper) but I'm assuming RCT3 refers in some way to the settings available? rebound compression ?threshold? 3 settings. It's just describing the adjustments available and it misleadingly connects this damper with the charger.

    Scottzg - you mentioned they're sensitive to pressure and oil volume. I don't deny it, but I find it bizarre that their oil spec is defined how it is. My fork specifies 106ml, but 71-77mm from top with +/- 2mm tolerance... I find it strange that it's such a specific volume, yet such a wide range of distance (10mm). If you consider a 28mm inside diameter (that's a guess), you could have close to a 25ml difference if you were at 69mm vs 79mm. And to be honest, I used the distance to crown measurement when I swapped my damper because I feel like I'll never get all of the oil out of the syringe / measuring cup / tube, etc, and therefore will never be putting the full intended amount of oil into the fork. My interpretation, based on experimenting, is that oil levels within the suggested range can be used to tune how the fork behaves, but there is very little tolerance once you add/remove more oil than that. Too much oil and it's choppy, too little and it dives.

    LSC - Rockshox claims that the "RCT3 features an independent adjustment of low speed compression" (this was pulled from the Motion Control DNA page on their website). Looking at the diagram & pictures of from FAQLoad - Rockshox RCT3 damper , this does make sense that it would work for all modes. It looks to me like the oil first meets the compression damping piston, which has the LSC needle in the middle, as well as the main shim stack, and after it has gotten through this piston, it's up against the Motion Control spring tube, and the Open/Pedal/Lock modes control port opening here. In open mode, it seems that there's no restriction (the MoCo spring tube is irrelevant); in Pedal mode the MoCo spring tube will need a large / fast enough impact to open itself (hence platform) and in Lock mode, the MoCo spring tube acts solely as a blow-off? Yep that's my understanding. I don't have a ton of experience with this generation of moco, just rebuilding it. Really it doesn't matter; set the fork up so it feels great descending in Open, and the other settings are whatever they are. There are very few instances where Trail is useful, and Lock exists for parking lot test rides. This version is great because you're not relying on the moco tube to do anything but make things worse; it's a proper damper.


    Info on my application.
    2016 Reba RL with Rapid Recovery, 100mm of travel came on my 2016 Niner RKT. I wasn't happy with the small bump compliance from the start. Switched to 120mm air spring (every single 2017 RKT's was switched up to 120 based on rider feedback - so I figured it was an obvious switch), and started adding tokens, hoping that if I could get my starting air pressure lower, I'd improve the small bump compliance. I had it at 3 tokens, 125 psi, and it was okay. consider lowering the bars, maybe like 20mm. It'll move your weight back over the fork and the bike may handle better and might be more plush at the same settings.

    Sold some spare parts, had some money in the bike slush fund, had been reading how magical the RCT3 damper is, so I decided to pull the trigger. Bought the RCT3 damper & matching rebound assembly from a 2016 SID / Bluto. (Didn't want to do the RCT3 charger damper as it was yet another hundred dollars more....)
    I did one ride at 3 tokens 105psi with the RCT3 damper, and it felt scary how bouncy it was on rebound. It kept bouncing me off the trail (and once into a tree).
    I'm now down to 100psi and 2 tokens, and it's starting to feel better. I currently have the rebound set full slow, and this feels like where I would normally setup my rebound. So if I want to go two clicks slower, I'd need to start changing damping oil (to 7.5wt or 10wt?).did you use the recommended RS oil and weight when you built it initially? Some RS oils are re-graded moto fork oils, and not all moto oils are the right viscosity at mtb fork temps.

    I'm definitely happier with the RCT3 dampers small bump compliance (at least in open mode with LSC full -ve), but now I find it a bit soft when standing / pedaling and that it dives a bunch under braking. I'm guessing that with this fork / damper, it'll be a compromise between small bump compliance & bobbing / brake dive.

    If I were to change the oil weight to get the rebound damping closer to the middle of it's range, do you think it will have a significant negative effect on compression damping?After you twaddle with the compression to get it back where it was it might be alright. I think you probably have something else going on with the fork though. It sounds like you're a fairly average weight, it's surprising you'd have the knobs cranked to the ends of their settings. If possible i'd want to try a bike with your fork as it came from the factory. I don't know what else to suggest because i don't have much experience with this generation of moco, and your having a frankenfork means that it's really tough to diagnose over the internet.


    Again, thanks for the info, and taking the time to read through this. I'm hoping that this thread can be a good source of concise, accurate information regarding Rockshox damper technologies.

    Cheers
    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    PS - if Rockshox ever sees this, please stop with all the BS marketing terms. They're so incredibly confusing - so much so that you apparently can't even keep them straight on your own website. See - https://www.sram.com/rockshox/techno...sx3417pvc16zz9 - page title is Motion Control DNA, yet in the first paragraph, you're calling it Mission Control DNA? Seriously?

    Second paragraph, you're referring to Dual Flow Rebound, which isn't listed anywhere else in your "technologies" section. Is Dual Flow Rebound the same as Rapid Recovery? Is it different? an orifice rebound was superseded by dual flow which was superseded by the dig valve. increasingly fast HSR


    And what is Motion Control DNA? What makes it different than Motion Control? more progressive spring tube.
    What makes it different than Motion Control IS? IS has a compression shim.


    It would be one thing if you offered tuning guides for your forks to help describe what features / knobs control what. But you don't. So we, the customer, are left wading through a pool of marketing bile that does nothing to actually help us get your product performing anywhere near it's max. Yep it's dumb. Probably done to show continued improvement.


    Rant over.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  7. #7
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    A lot of confusing information here, but its understandable with all the marketing buzzwords RS is throwing around.
    Rapid recovery: Preloaded rebound shim stack
    Dual Flow: Previous non-preloaded rebound shim stack
    DIG valve: Digressive midvalve on the other side of the rebound piston, aiding in more low speed compression support. This needs a matching compression damper tune.
    RL: Rebound & Lockout adjustment
    RCT3: Rebound, (lowspeed)Compressionadjust and 3 threshold settings, LSC adjust only works in "open", Pedal mode closes the LSC port, and preloads the blowoff a little. Lock actually puts the most preload on the blowoff threshold valve.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    A lot of confusing information here, but its understandable with all the marketing buzzwords RS is throwing around.
    Rapid recovery: Preloaded rebound shim stack
    Dual Flow: Previous non-preloaded rebound shim stack
    DIG valve: Digressive midvalve on the other side of the rebound piston, aiding in more low speed compression support. This needs a matching compression damper tune.
    RL: Rebound & Lockout adjustment
    RCT3: Rebound, (lowspeed)Compressionadjust and 3 threshold settings, LSC adjust only works in "open", Pedal mode closes the LSC port, and preloads the blowoff a little. Lock actually puts the most preload on the blowoff threshold valve.
    This is the correct information^^^.

    Some of the other posts have some incorrect information, especially about the digvalve. Digvalve is nothing more than a weak Midvale to aid in compression.

    Its a weak midvalve because there is no ifp of other compensation design putting pressure on the oil. If it was stiff like in the lyrik or pike, it would cause cavitation.

    All of this technology is used by pretty much every fork manufacture, they just don't make up stupid names for it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    Some of the other posts have some incorrect information, especially about the digvalve. Digvalve is nothing more than a weak Midvale to aid in compression.
    Thanks, and feel free to correct whatever i said. I haven't been paying attention for a long time, and am not any sort of suspension genius.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  10. #10
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    In reply to ScottZg - thanks for taking the time to reply to my long posts.

    You asked a few questions in there, so I'll answer them here.

    1 - rider weight - I'm around 210-215lbs with gear. As for knobs cranked to the extremes - I've always liked my rebound slow, so that doesn't surprise me, and my end goal has been to get better small bump compliance, hence the LSC turned all the way down.

    2 - oil type - I didn't have bike specific fork oil available in 5wt, so I used Lucas High Performance Synthetic For Oil (available from Canadian Tire - big box hardware / everything store here in Canada).

    3 - Moving the bars - I understand the idea behind this, but I'm extremely happy with my position on the bike right now. I find my balance on the bike is near perfect (don't know how I could get it better), and I can easily say that I'm faster on this bike than I've ever been on any other bike. Also, my friends call me the princess (from the princess and the pea fairy tail) when it comes to bike setup. I'll notice a 5mm change in stem length, or a 2mm change in seat height. It's almost to an OCD level of attention.

    "My interpretation, based on experimenting, is that oil levels within the suggested range can be used to tune how the fork behaves, but there is very little tolerance once you add/remove more oil than that. Too much oil and it's choppy, too little and it dives. "
    Interesting. I'd have assumed that the compression piston & bottom of the MoCo tube are submersed in the oil, and from there, oil level wouldn't change much in terms of characteristics. What does adding / removing oil normally do to the forks performance?

    Again, thanks for all the good info. This has been a great / informative discussion so far.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    RCT3: Rebound, (lowspeed)Compressionadjust and 3 threshold settings, LSC adjust only works in "open", Pedal mode closes the LSC port, and preloads the blowoff a little. Lock actually puts the most preload on the blowoff threshold valve.
    From looking at the diagram / pictures in the link in previous posts, it doesn't look like Pedal & Lock would actually close the LSC port, but instead just renders them ineffective because any oil flowing through the LSC is now faced with having to (in pedal mode) flow through the small orifice in the base of the MoCo spring tube or (in locked mode) compress the spring tube to the point where it will open the blow-off.

    Or is there a mechanism in there that actually closes off the LSC port when in pedal / locked mode?

    And again, from that diagram / pictures in the link - does it the 3 threshold settings actually change pre-load on the blowoff threshold, or does it close off the ports in the bottom of the MoCo spring tube, causing the oil to have to work against the spring tube to be able to move / allow oil flow?

    Again, thanks for the good replies. This has been quite informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by visser View Post
    In reply to ScottZg - thanks for taking the time to reply to my long posts.

    You asked a few questions in there, so I'll answer them here.

    1 - rider weight - I'm around 210-215lbs with gear. As for knobs cranked to the extremes - I've always liked my rebound slow, so that doesn't surprise me, and my end goal has been to get better small bump compliance, hence the LSC turned all the way down.

    2 - oil type - I didn't have bike specific fork oil available in 5wt, so I used Lucas High Performance Synthetic For Oil (available from Canadian Tire - big box hardware / everything store here in Canada).

    3 - Moving the bars - I understand the idea behind this, but I'm extremely happy with my position on the bike right now. I find my balance on the bike is near perfect (don't know how I could get it better), and I can easily say that I'm faster on this bike than I've ever been on any other bike. Also, my friends call me the princess (from the princess and the pea fairy tail) when it comes to bike setup. I'll notice a 5mm change in stem length, or a 2mm change in seat height. It's almost to an OCD level of attention.

    "My interpretation, based on experimenting, is that oil levels within the suggested range can be used to tune how the fork behaves, but there is very little tolerance once you add/remove more oil than that. Too much oil and it's choppy, too little and it dives. "
    Interesting. I'd have assumed that the compression piston & bottom of the MoCo tube are submersed in the oil, and from there, oil level wouldn't change much in terms of characteristics. What does adding / removing oil normally do to the forks performance?

    Again, thanks for all the good info. This has been a great / informative discussion so far.
    I didn't realize Cdn Tire was selling Lucas fork oil. Unfortunately, my Manitou fork needs [email protected] but Lucas' 5wt is 25Cst, so it's too thick.

    1 - you may be well aware of this, but you said you've always liked your rebound slow, and you are looking for better small bump compliance, well your slow rebound could be causing some packing down, which reduces small bump compliance.

    I've seen more than one tuning guide mention that harshness caused by slow rebound can be interpreted as too much LSC, but reducing LSC might actually make the problem worse by making the fork dive deeper into its travel.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    I didn't realize Cdn Tire was selling Lucas fork oil. Unfortunately, my Manitou fork needs [email protected] but Lucas' 5wt is 25Cst, so it's too thick.
    I found another chart that states that Rockshox 5WT (rebranded Torco) is 20Cst at 40degC, so it looks like I'm already running slightly heavier oil than Rockshox spec. Good call on looking that up.


    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    1 - you may be well aware of this, but you said you've always liked your rebound slow, and you are looking for better small bump compliance, well your slow rebound could be causing some packing down, which reduces small bump compliance.
    I've seen more than one tuning guide mention that harshness caused by slow rebound can be interpreted as too much LSC, but reducing LSC might actually make the problem worse by making the fork dive deeper into its travel.
    Yeah, well aware, and makes sense. I don't think this is the case for me, especially as my fork has Rapid Recovery, which is intended to alleviate packing.
    The situation that makes me most aware of the lack of small bump compliance is a single root going across an otherwise smooth trail. On my previous Fox forks, I would barely feel anything through the bars - it would suck it up flawlessly (while also not diving on the brakes / feeling too soft). On my Reba, I get that jolt through my arms, which is what I'm trying to combat. For the rest, the fork does ride well (now that I'm at 100psi, 2 tokens), and I am fast / feel comfortable on it, so maybe I just need to live with it.
    Last edited by visser; 09-05-2017 at 11:59 AM.

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