Rockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Rockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?

    I have a 2017 Pike with the RC damper. I'm wondering if anyone has riding time after upgrading from the old RC damper to the new Charger 2 RCT3 damper.

    The issue is of course the high speed spiking and low speed brake dive with the current damper and . I want to know if the Charger 2 is softer in the HSC and will allow me to run LSC to reduce diving without added harshness.

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    Unless you really want a lock out I would say to just re shim your current RC. Everything in regards to pistons etc are the same as rct3 so just re shim your RC and your good to go. From the information I have gethered you can move the ring shim with center shim up one to make softer or what I will probably do for my friends RC is replace the shims and use the boxxer stack which can be found in the service manual on rockshox site. For shims I found this site that will sell individual shims.

    Revalving Shims

  3. #3
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    The charger2 has a softer HSC stack than Charger1. But the original oil flow issues causing harshness remain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The charger2 has a softer HSC stack than Charger1. But the original oil flow issues causing harshness remain.
    But one could theoretically turn a Charger 1 into Charger 2 by reshimming it right? Say using something like the boxxer chart in the light setting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The charger2 has a softer HSC stack than Charger1. But the original oil flow issues causing harshness remain.

    Does the 2016/17 RC have a stronger HSC stack than the charger 1? If I can get a Charger 2 and be softer than the RC or 1 I might be happy.

    I've looked at aftermarket dampers but there are no vendors that I'm aware of in Canada. I'd prefer not to go international with that. I'm not comfortable digging in to the shim stack myself either.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    But one could theoretically turn a Charger 1 into Charger 2 by reshimming it right? Say using something like the boxxer chart in the light setting?
    Absolutely. Fewer shims in the Charger1 and it'll feel just like a charger2. But with better parts supply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Absolutely. Fewer shims in the Charger1 and it'll feel just like a charger2. But with better parts supply.
    Cool. Iím going to set my boxxer 1 to the soft setting (not sure how it compares to Charger 2 in that setting, may need to be even softer). After riding the charger 2 RC2 on fri in the soft HSC setting and liking it more than my Charger 2 rct3 I guess I may need to go custom extra soft on my boxxer.

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    Spiking its midalve problem. Had boxxer with charger1. It just spikes and faster I go the harder it spikes... Increased midvalve float and its great. With soft compression stack I can even close lsc clickers and still no spiking. Im 155lbs.

    I'd tune old charger instead on wasting money to get charger2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Spiking its midalve problem. Had boxxer with charger1. It just spikes and faster I go the harder it spikes... Increased midvalve float and its great. With soft compression stack I can even close lsc clickers and still no spiking. Im 155lbs.

    I'd tune old charger instead on wasting money to get charger2.
    Anymore on this increased midvalve float, write up, pictures etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Increased midvalve float and its great. With soft compression stack I can even close lsc clickers and still no spiking. Im 155lbs.
    Can you elaborate more what did you do here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Can you elaborate more what did you do here?
    The check valve shim on the rebound piston has a step that limits how far it can open, so you can machine it down another ~.1mm to increase how much the shim can float before it has to start bending. If thatís what you want to play with

    Charger 1 has hardly any high speed compression at all, charger 2 actually has more but with slightly less low speed. Still fairly soft overall but the adjuster works well so you can get more use out of it. The base valve piston is designed better and responds to tuning well compared to the huge ports of charger 1.

    Rebound tune is more appropriate for ďaverageĒ riders on charger 2 as well.

    Sometimes harsh means itís too soft 😉

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Charger 1 has hardly any high speed compression at all, charger 2 actually has more but with slightly less low speed. Still fairly soft overall but the adjuster works well so you can get more use out of it. The base valve piston is designed better and responds to tuning well compared to the huge ports of charger 1.
    I'm going to disagree with all of that. These are some really bizarre claims.

    Charger 1 (RC) is massively overdamped. They put a lockout shim stack in it with huge blowoff force. For the average rider it is overdamped by a factor of 4.
    Charger 1 (RCT3) is almost exactly half the stiffness. Still overdamped by a factor of 2 for the average rider even before they throw in the extra spring preload on the HSC knob.

    Charger 2 has about 2/3 the high speed damping of Charger 1.

    Claiming Charger 1 has hardly any HSC and Charger 2 has more are two completely wrong claims that don't stand the simplest investigation. Let alone a simple ride test.

    Charger 2 was designed to be softer and cheaper to manufacture than Charger 1. They succeeded on both counts. But carried over several deficiencies in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Sometimes harsh means itís too soft 😉
    Only on planet FIT4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm going to disagree with all of that. These are some really bizarre claims.

    Charger 1 (RC) is massively overdamped. They put a lockout shim stack in it with huge blowoff force. For the average rider it is overdamped by a factor of 4.
    Charger 1 (RCT3) is almost exactly half the stiffness. Still overdamped by a factor of 2 for the average rider even before they throw in the extra spring preload on the HSC knob.

    Charger 2 has about 2/3 the high speed damping of Charger 1.

    Claiming Charger 1 has hardly any HSC and Charger 2 has more are two completely wrong claims that don't stand the simplest investigation. Let alone a simple ride test.

    Charger 2 was designed to be softer and cheaper to manufacture than Charger 1. They succeeded on both counts. But carried over several deficiencies in the process.



    Only on planet FIT4.
    😂 youíre welcome to disagree all you want, youíve got to keep selling your ďsecretĒ mods after all

    All these facts come from actual damper testing......and you will find several very smart people around the internet that agree

    Charger 1 rc and rct3 do have vastly different shim stiffness but damping doesnít always increase directly proportional to the change in stack stiffness (you would know this if you had a way to test it) so in reality there is hardly any difference between the two. You can stack things up even stiffer with not much change to the slope.

    I rode charger 1 forks for 4 years and tested all kinds of mods as well so have a fairly good handle on how they ride

    Charger 2 is a much more refined version of charger 1, every change has clearly been made for performance, not price.

    The 3 port piston with smaller flow area lets the shims lift and control the damping, plus when you add shims it actually gets harder!

    Parabolic adjuster needles in compression and rebound give even changes in adjustment through the whole range, instead of 6 clicks that do nothing.

    Even making the adjuster knobs simpler to install and the detents less prone to contamination are nice touches.

    Yes itís niggly to access the compression assembly but itís not really that difficult for anyone with a clue

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
     youíre welcome to disagree all you want, youíve got to keep selling your ďsecretĒ mods after all

    All these facts come from actual damper testing......and you will find several very smart people around the internet that agree

    Charger 1 rc and rct3 do have vastly different shim stiffness but damping doesnít always increase directly proportional to the change in stack stiffness (you would know this if you had a way to test it) so in reality there is hardly any difference between the two. You can stack things up even stiffer with not much change to the slope.

    I rode charger 1 forks for 4 years and tested all kinds of mods as well so have a fairly good handle on how they ride

    Charger 2 is a much more refined version of charger 1, every change has clearly been made for performance, not price.

    The 3 port piston with smaller flow area lets the shims lift and control the damping, plus when you add shims it actually gets harder!

    Parabolic adjuster needles in compression and rebound give even changes in adjustment through the whole range, instead of 6 clicks that do nothing.

    Even making the adjuster knobs simpler to install and the detents less prone to contamination are nice touches.

    Yes itís niggly to access the compression assembly but itís not really that difficult for anyone with a clue
    Dyno testing to sub 1 m/s does not support your compression damping claims and neither does riding them. Let alone calculating and modelling to realistic compression speeds.
    So you'd better go ahead and back up these bizarre claims. Do the maths on 1m/s free-fall height while you're at it.

    Years riding a fork is not evidence to back a claim. That's not how any of this works. Otherwise everyone would know exactly how their damping worked.

    You cannot separate pistons and shim stacks when discussing the resulting damping. Because the damping does not exist without both. Claiming large ports are silly because they require stiffer stacks is equally silly. It is very simple to fit a stiffer stack and the benefits of large ports remain along with the benefits of a more tunable stack.

    BTW I'm talking damping rates with C1 RC vs C!RCT3 vs C2. Not simply shim stack stiffness.

    Start with small ports and you're stuck with that choke point until you take them out and start cutting metal.

    Charger 2 is cheaper to manufacture at every point vs charger 1. Go through the pieces and plot out the manufacturing steps. Right through to the plastic rebound needles. They saved a heap of money in machine setup and in manufacture of each damper. Just like Fox with their Grip 2.

    I don't sell secret mods. I sell engineered solutions to real problems. The funniest bit is how invisible the changes are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Dyno testing to sub 1 m/s does not support your compression damping claims and neither does riding them. Let alone calculating and modelling to realistic compression speeds.
    So you'd better go ahead and back up these bizarre claims. Do the maths on 1m/s free-fall height while you're at it.

    Years riding a fork is not evidence to back a claim. That's not how any of this works. Otherwise everyone would know exactly how their damping worked.

    You cannot separate pistons and shim stacks when discussing the resulting damping. Because the damping does not exist without both. Claiming large ports are silly because they require stiffer stacks is equally silly. It is very simple to fit a stiffer stack and the benefits of large ports remain along with the benefits of a more tunable stack.

    BTW I'm talking damping rates with C1 RC vs C!RCT3 vs C2. Not simply shim stack stiffness.

    Start with small ports and you're stuck with that choke point until you take them out and start cutting metal.

    Charger 2 is cheaper to manufacture at every point vs charger 1. Go through the pieces and plot out the manufacturing steps. Right through to the plastic rebound needles. They saved a heap of money in machine setup and in manufacture of each damper. Just like Fox with their Grip 2.

    I don't sell secret mods. I sell engineered solutions to real problems. The funniest bit is how invisible the changes are.
    I have mountains of dyno tests that back up all of my comments but since you donít seem to believe in things like ďactual dataĒ there isnít much point in posting it

    Itís easy to see how large ports are a problem, as soon as the shims lift there is a huge flow area exposed which dumps a lot of oil straight away.

    How far do you think these shims are bending? The ports themselves have no significant effect at the speeds that bicycle dampers see, the shims would nearly be folded in half to make ports the choke point!

    Lets not forget the the 2-plane bending mode of the C1 is more compliant than the 3-plane bending in C2 so you can't compare the 2 shim stacks alone

    Overly large ports are a hindrance, the trend is exactly the same across dampers of all shapes and sizes

    Well done rockshox for saving some money while increasing performance then  Explains why the pike came down in price last year
    Last edited by JohnnyC7; 01-07-2019 at 12:43 PM.

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    Wow, that is a good discussion! I wonder who is right in here as it seems you both have great knowledge of these dampers and say opposite things

    JohnyC7, can you show couple examples you are referring to? So far, what I learned (read) about charger dampers is that RC has lots of HSC dampening, RCT3 less and charger 2 even less. Iíd love to see why you say it is opposite.

  17. #17
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    for me the fork felt pretty much consistent with what dougal claims. i made some easy mods that really helped the fork. you can see what i did in this thread

    i am planing to play with it a bit more and see what additional softening of compression stack does along with 0.1mm midvalve check shim (instead of 0.15mm).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I have mountains of dyno tests that back up all of my comments but since you donít seem to believe in things like ďactual dataĒ there isnít much point in posting it
    Dyno testing a fork at sub 1 m/s and claiming it's good at high speed is like driving a car at 12 km/h in your driveway and saying it's awesome at 100km/h.

    Your dyno speeds are exceeded in a kerb-drop. A measurement tool is useless without the understanding of what you are measuring, why and how.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Itís easy to see how large ports are a problem, as soon as the shims lift there is a huge flow area exposed which dumps a lot of oil straight away.

    How far do you think these shims are bending? The ports themselves have no significant effect at the speeds that bicycle dampers see, the shims would nearly be folded in half to make ports the choke point!
    For some reason you think ports not choking is a problem. This is a seriously bizarre stance to take.

    Ports are never supposed to have a significant effect. If they do you get uncontrolled quadratics. This is fluid mechanics basics. Another fluid mechanics basic is knowing what the shims must do to control flow area and exit losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Lets not forget the the 2-plane bending mode of the C1 is more compliant than the 3-plane bending in C2 so you can't compare the 2 shim stacks alone
    Once again you seem to think you can discuss the piston and stacks differently. You can't and I'm not. I am discussing the exact combo of 2 port C1 base piston with it's shim stack vs 3 port C2 base piston with it's shim stack. The shim flex modes are inherent in that and cannot be excluded. So why would you think I had forgotten?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Overly large ports are a hindrance, the trend is exactly the same across dampers of all shapes and sizes
    Again you've made a claim that is the opposite of reality and provided no argument to back it up.

    Large ports (combined with good piston design) which avoid quadratics are a necessity for suspension to work well at high shaft speeds. Otherwise they spike and you lose control of high speed damping.

    Go ahead and sink your life savings into a damper design with small ports. I'll watch and wait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    for me the fork felt pretty much consistent with what dougal claims. i made some easy mods that really helped the fork. you can see what i did in this thread

    i am planing to play with it a bit more and see what additional softening of compression stack does along with 0.1mm midvalve check shim (instead of 0.15mm).
    You need more check valve motion to really improve it. A thinner shim doesn't do much.
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  20. #20
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    .1mm shim should give me .05mm increase in gap there ? (vs .15shim thats currently there). otherwise what you say is the little shelf i pointed on the picture needs to be filed down i assume?Name:  Capture2.JPG
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I have mountains of dyno tests that back up all of my comments but since you donít seem to believe in things like ďactual dataĒ there isnít much point in posting it
    Why the unnecessary insults? This is a good thread, can we keep it civil?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    .1mm shim should give me .05mm increase in gap there ? (vs .15shim thats currently there). otherwise what you say is the little shelf i pointed on the picture needs to be filed down i assume?Name:  Capture2.JPG
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    Yes. That's exactly what you need to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Wow, that is a good discussion! I wonder who is right in here as it seems you both have great knowledge of these dampers and say opposite things

    JohnyC7, can you show couple examples you are referring to? So far, what I learned (read) about charger dampers is that RC has lots of HSC dampening, RCT3 less and charger 2 even less. Iíd love to see why you say it is opposite.
    Yup I will put something together and post it up, in the mean time you can check the ďpike 2014Ē thread, page 6 is where Darren from Push confirms the exact same thing 5 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Yup I will put something together and post it up, in the mean time you can check the ďpike 2014Ē thread, page 6 is where Darren from Push confirms the exact same thing 5 years ago.
    This post: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...l#post10975681

    Yeah I don't agree with him either. High accelerations come from the ground and the only thing that can stop the suspension accelerating is tyre squish.
    The only thing that can stop the bars matching that acceleration is the suspension moving.

    Using more compression damping to lower the suspensions internal acceleration will transfer more force and acceleration to the bars. It becomes more like a rigid body.
    Simply because the motion from the ground has to move something and if the suspension takes less the bars take more.

    The only exceptions are when you're running out of stroke or running too deep into a progressive spring curve. Then more compression damping can help. But it could also be not enough spring rate. It's complicated and needs full investigation. Not just pot shotting answers.

    Plot out the forces for accelerations vs damping forces from velocities and it all becomes pretty clear what's going on.

    Darren didn't come back to that post with the higher velocity data. Guess he got busy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    For some reason you think ports not choking is a problem. This is a seriously bizarre stance to take.

    Ports are never supposed to have a significant effect. If they do you get uncontrolled quadratics. This is fluid mechanics basics. Another fluid mechanics basic is knowing what the shims must do to control flow area and exit losses.



    Once again you seem to think you can discuss the piston and stacks differently. You can't and I'm not. I am discussing the exact combo of 2 port C1 base piston with it's shim stack vs 3 port C2 base piston with it's shim stack. The shim flex modes are inherent in that and cannot be excluded. So why would you think I had forgotten?
    I am talking about the combination of piston & shims

    There is no quadratic effect at the base valve, there are several great dampers or upgrades out there with much smaller ports than a charger and don't "choke"

    You are right that too little compression damping does make the fork travel too deep in to the stroke of a progrssive fork. I seem to remember you claiming the pike was too prgressive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I am talking about the combination of piston & shims

    There is no quadratic effect at the base valve, there are several great dampers or upgrades out there with much smaller ports than a charger and don't "choke"
    Basic fluid mechanics. There is always a quadratic effect from ports. The only thing that changes is where you are on the quadratic curve.
    Smaller ports scale you up the curve where quadratic port effects start to either interfere or dominate. Large ports move you down the curve in the other direction.

    To claim no quadratic effect is to ignore fluid mechanics.

    There are suspension tuners who prefer small ports. I am not one of them. They simply do not work on my rocky terrain and spike on sharp impacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    You are right that too little compression damping does make the fork travel too deep in to the stroke of a progrssive fork. I seem to remember you claiming the pike was too prgressive?
    I said the Pike was a poor choice for light riders. Because it is.
    With the damper fixed a moderately aggressive 70kg rider has no issue getting full travel with 2 tokens inside.
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  27. #27
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    Running a 2015 Boxxer with the original Charger damper. Overall I think it feels ok. But I can get a new Charger 2 at a great deal. Could one expect to feel much improvement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Running a 2015 Boxxer with the original Charger damper. Overall I think it feels ok. But I can get a new Charger 2 at a great deal. Could one expect to feel much improvement?
    The Charger 2 isn't backwards compatible in the Boxxer. At least it wasn't about 6 months ago. Only the Charger 1 fits the previous generation.

    Better to tune your Charger 1. Aside from the RC2 version there is no advantage to the Charger 2.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The Charger 2 isn't backwards compatible in the Boxxer. At least it wasn't about 6 months ago. Only the Charger 1 fits the previous generation.

    Better to tune your Charger 1. Aside from the RC2 version there is no advantage to the Charger 2.
    Thanks.

    Just heard it is compatible.

    Guess I was thinking the adjustable HSC might be worth it as the first version is LSC damping only.

    Getting way off topic hear but something I've found is little need to mes with the HSC damping. I run the LSC pretty soft as what I ride is super slick and chunky natural featured tech and needs rather soft, conforming suspension. The times I hit the parks that have buffer trails with bigger features and higher speeds I just bump up the LSC and that does the trick. Seems I don t need much more HSC beyond that.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but dialing in more HSC damping without dialing up LSC first is the wrong way to do it? They are not exactly independent of each other on a damper like a Charger?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Thanks.

    Just heard it is compatible.

    Guess I was thinking the adjustable HSC might be worth it as the first version is LSC damping only.

    Getting way off topic hear but something I've found is little need to mes with the HSC damping. I run the LSC pretty soft as what I ride is super slick and chunky natural featured tech and needs rather soft, conforming suspension. The times I hit the parks that have buffer trails with bigger features and higher speeds I just bump up the LSC and that does the trick. Seems I don t need much more HSC beyond that.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but dialing in more HSC damping without dialing up LSC first is the wrong way to do it? They are not exactly independent of each other on a damper like a Charger?
    That's how I run too. Get the base valve setup correctly once and you never need to screw around with it. LSC gives you enough adjustment to cover. HSC adjustments also add preload. Which isn't usually my aim.

    LSC controls the ramp up to when the base valve opens. So they're co-dependent. I always close LSC before adding HSC. A big open LSC port and a stiff base stack feels friggen awful and emulates an orifice damper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Basic fluid mechanics. There is always a quadratic effect from ports. The only thing that changes is where you are on the quadratic curve.
    Smaller ports scale you up the curve where quadratic port effects start to either interfere or dominate. Large ports move you down the curve in the other direction.

    To claim no quadratic effect is to ignore fluid mechanics.
    Semantics man, of course there is always quadratic damping through an orififice. Just isnít significant enough to worry about in most mid valves, let alone base valves

    I used to think the same as you, I started tuning the mid valve in my own fork 3 years ago. I got to the point I designed my own piston specifically to be a drop-in part which people could install themselves and turned it in to a fully free-flowing check valve. Made prototypes, tested it myself and in a few other peoples forks. I still have the CAD models but in the end decided I was wrong and it isnít really what needs changing in these forks. Many other more important forces going on! And can get better results leaving as-is....

    ...Wait, Iíve been looking at this the wrong way!

    Who wants to buy a drop-in kit for their charger 1 to remove the ďspikeĒ ? Includes piston, spring, check plate and a complete rebound shim stack optimised to your weight.

    $200, let me know if youíre keen and Iíll do a run 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Semantics man, of course there is always quadratic damping through a port. Just isnít significant enough to worry about in most mid valves, let alone base valves
    No it's not semantics. It's understanding and you're continually contradicting yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I used to think the same as you
    The evidence all shows otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I started tuning the mid valve in my own fork 3 years ago. I got to the point I designed my own piston specifically to be a drop-in part which people could install themselves and turned it in to a fully free-flowing check valve. Made prototypes, tested it myself and in a few other peoples forks. I still have the CAD models but in the end decided I was wrong and it isnít really what needs changing in these forks. Many other more important forces going on! And can get better results leaving as-is

    Wait, Iíve been looking at this the wrong way!

    Who wants to buy a drop-in kit for their charger 1 to remove the ďspikeĒ ? Includes piston, spring, check plate and a complete rebound shim stack optimised to your weight.

    $200, let me know if youíre keen and Iíll do a run 
    You've got the self-proclaimed miracle solution and abandoned it because you decided you were wrong and the spikey forks were perfect as they were?

    Cool story. Makes no sense on any level. Must be the customers all being wrong then!

    See the Charger rebound pistons are a very good design and don't need changed. The chances of someone with no engineering background being able to improve on them is very low.
    The chances of something else vital in the new piston design being missed and performance coming out worse is very high.
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  33. #33
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    Chiming in to say that there is some excellent discussion in this thread!

    I'm thinking back to my vibrations & dynamics class that I took during undergrad and the spring/mass/damper systems we studied really didn't give credence to high speed/low speed dynamics of the system. Love the 1 m/s shaft speed discussion!

    Keep it up boys - some of us enginerds are really geeking out in the background!
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Chiming in to say that there is some excellent discussion in this thread!

    I'm thinking back to my vibrations & dynamics class that I took during undergrad and the spring/mass/damper systems we studied really didn't give credence to high speed/low speed dynamics of the system. Love the 1 m/s shaft speed discussion!

    Keep it up boys - some of us enginerds are really geeking out in the background!
    The numerical solutions for vibration decay modelling and control theory rely on damping being linear and the same in both directions. Which is almost never the case in suspension. We also split suspension speed range into low and high to deal with the two distinct vibration modes and frequencies that each suspension has.
    Rider forced vs terrain forced.

    I personally found those simplifications and limitations of the analysis very frustrating when being taught it at engineering school. Instead I had to step into forward difference modelling.

    It's all physics for setup and then all maths to solve. But then you have to validate your results.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Semantics man, of course there is always quadratic damping through an orififice. Just isnít significant enough to worry about in most mid valves, let alone base valves
    For example. Charger 1 has base valve oil velocity matching shaft speed. Mid Valve is 4x faster.
    That's fairly significant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Climber View Post
    Why the unnecessary insults? This is a good thread, can we keep it civil?
    Apologies, I will try keep this a useful discussion for people to learn something

    I have picked out a few tests to post up, but have a fork on the bench at the moment which will also have some good results I would like to include. Hopefully tomorrow

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    So here is the graph for those who were interested, there are a few notes to go with it and give some background as Dyno graphs are useless without some kind of context

    Yes the are no units, we are only comparing relative damping and they are all on the same scale so that works fine

    This type of plot is known as a PVP, and is created by doing a series of runs at different speeds and plotting the peak force from each. They are the ones most commonly used to determine damping, if valving changes are needed and if the changes had the desired effect

    Unpressurised fork dampers all tend to have large amounts of hysteresis meaning in this case peak force comes after the peak velocity. This is an important consideration when comparing different dampers, it also explains why some of the lines are a ďwonkyĒ (technical term). This effect gets larger as speed and frequency increase

    Forks usually need very little damping and friction is relatively large, so please ignore the ďlow speedĒ section of the graphs as the friction masks the result there. I would modify the test if that was my main concern
    I use several different types of tests, usually on several forks to make decisions on performance and tuning

    When we talk about damping, high speed damping or damping coefficient, we are talking about the slope of the graph. This is the area where the shims have opened and are controlling damping. Often referred to as damping rate too but this is also used to represent the ratio relative to critical damping.
    Even on the more uneven ones you can see a clear trend which represents this slope. (again several tests are used to confirm this slope) The specific force at any point isnít as important since we are looking at the change in force in respect to velocity. Dampers continue building force at this rate until the ports themselves start to choke due to ďquadratic dampingĒ where the damping increases at a rate relative to velocity squared, rather than the linear damping from the shim stacks. It takes incredibly high velocities for this to start kicking in to a noticeable degree though.
    LS adjusters are all open or mostly open. Another thing you may hear is varied comments on how much the LSC adjuster effects high speed damping. It does increase the amount of force generated in the high speed zone but doesnít alter the slope. Hence why many tuners will say lsc doesnít effect high speed.

    Orange line is charger 2
    Purple line is charger 1
    Green is another very popular damper
    Brown lines are 2 different dampers that have been ďtunedĒ for someone around 70-80kg
    Dark blue is a reference for an actual ďover dampedĒ fork Ė a marzocchi 888 RC3 Evo. That comparison is pretty clear.

    I chose the 888 specifically because I had worked on it a lot in my time as the service tech for Marz in NZ. I was well aware it had too much compression damping from owning one myself and also tuning them for dozens of riders from regular punters to WC racers. The V2 version also presented a genuine cavitation problem early on. I rode a V2 piston also and suggested a fix at the time but never heard a response. They did make the same update half a season or so later though.

    Sorry if some of the details are a little vague, I can't give away too much hard earned information but hopefully people learn something
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    I was hoping you'd post some data. There is nothing useful there.

    With LSC bypasses open you are only measuring friction and holes. But with no units you're not measuring anything.
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    So, referring to the graph seems like charger 1 & 2 are fairly similar. If you are saying that brown lines are tuned, they should be good reference lines? This would mean, that charger 1 & 2 have not enough compression damping since dark blue has way too much? Just want to make sure I understand it correctly.

    Can you tell what is the green damper? And in reality, graphs without units are kind of not complete....

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    So, referring to the graph, seems like charger 1 & 2 are fairly similar. If you are saying that brown lines are tuned, they should be a good reference lines? This would mean, that charger 1 & 2 have not enough compression damping, since dark blue has way too much? Just want to make sure I understand it correctly.

    Can you tell what is the green damper?
    A low speed test with open bypass cannot show the differences in shim stack or pistons. It's just shaft pushing oil through an orifice. You can't open the shims (especially preloaded shims) until the orifice chokes and builds enough pressure to open shims.

    This is too slow for that and the ports are too big. Which is why they look similar. They do not show anything useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    So, referring to the graph seems like charger 1 & 2 are fairly similar. If you are saying that brown lines are tuned, they should be good reference lines? This would mean, that charger 1 & 2 have not enough compression damping since dark blue has way too much? Just want to make sure I understand it correctly.

    Can you tell what is the green damper? And in reality, graphs without units are kind of not complete....
    Yup thatís right, I canít say what the green damper is, but I will say the brown line that gets cut short is the same damper with a firmer shim stack and the same adjuster position. Does that give some more context?

    I have all of the same dampers in the fully closed position too and the picture is identical, everything just gets shifted upwards. The low speed bleed ends less than 1/4 of the way along the chart

    You need a very strong platform to delay the opening of the shims past the end of this graph. None of these dampers have that much platform

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I have all of the same dampers in the fully closed position too and the picture is identical, everything just gets shifted upwards. The low speed bleed ends less than 1/4 of the way along the chart
    No you don't. That is now how that works. That is not how any of this works. That is completely and totally wrong as a description of any damper curve.

    At this point I'd suggest you go back and rewatch Vorsprungs videos. Right back to the basics.
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    Lets try this graph, it shouldn't need too much explanation, several versions of charger damper open and closed. With units.

    About the only difference here is the amount of platform, the slopes are all the same.

    My comment about charger 2 having more hsc was a tiny stretch, it was mostly based on the fact that you can actually revalve it to alter the slope. As you can see the charger 1 RC with its much stiffer stack has no noticeable change in slope, let alone "overdamped"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    No you don't. That is now how that works. That is not how any of this works. That is completely and totally wrong as a description of any damper curve.

    At this point I'd suggest you go back and rewatch Vorsprungs videos. Right back to the basics.
    This is the last time I will bother responding to one of your comments, I feel like lately you've taken to personal attacks in an attempt to undermine me. I honestly thought you were more professional than that so a little disappointed but not entirely surprised

    I guess some people here may not know the whole background - I have worked with suspension for around 15 or so years but late last year opened up my own suspension centre in NZ. Technically in competition to Dougal but in all my preperation I identified there was more than enough room for the handful of suspension people in our country, and I get along with everyone else quite happily.

    I mean I'm actually flattered, I must have done something right to have struck such a nerve!
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Lets try this graph, it shouldn't need too much explanation, several versions of charger damper open and closed. With units.

    About the only difference here is the amount of platform, the slopes are all the same.

    My comment about charger 2 having more hsc was a tiny stretch, it was mostly based on the fact that you can actually revalve it to alter the slope. As you can see the charger 1 RC with its much stiffer stack has no noticeable change in slope, let alone "overdamped"
    That's a more useful graph for the first 0.8m/s (pedestrian speeds). However it contradicts ALL of your claims so far.

    The slopes are not the same, and compression damping does not rely on the slope. It relies on the absolute values. At x m/s you will see x force. Values that are very different.

    The C2 is softer than C1 RC and C1 RCT3 at every point by a significant margin. Those margins get bigger as speeds get higher. Very interesting things happen beyond 0.8 m/s.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    This is the last time I will bother responding to one of your comments, I feel like lately you've taken to personal attacks in an attempt to undermine me. I honestly thought you were more professional than that so a little disappointed but not entirely surprised
    There are no personal attacks in here. I am addressing your work.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I guess some people here may not know the whole background - I have worked with suspension for around 15 or so years but late last year opened up my own suspension centre in NZ. Technically in competition to Dougal but in all my preperation I identified there was more than enough room for the handful of suspension people in our country, and I get along with everyone else quite happily.

    I mean I'm actually flattered, I must have done something right to have struck such a nerve!
    You are not in competition with me. You're a bike shop competing with other local bike shops at the other end of the country.

    The nerve you have struck is my intolerance for misinformation.

    Like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Charger 1 has hardly any high speed compression at all, charger 2 actually has more but with slightly less low speed.

    Sometimes harsh means itís too soft 
    Which you, after pages of word-salad, then proved your own claims completely wrong with this graph:
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    What are the numbers for low and high speed? I found this from fast suspension:

    Riders can externally adjust compression for low (0-150 millimeters per second) shaft speeds and medium (150-700 millimeters per second) speeds using the purple and black adjusters. High-speed (anything over 700mm/s) can be adjusted internally by switching shims in the lower valve and can be done by the consumer.

    So is everything below 0.7 m/s considered low speed and above is high speed when shims come into play or does is start sooner, at 0.15 m/s?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    What are the numbers for low and high speed? I found this from fast suspension:

    Riders can externally adjust compression for low (0-150 millimeters per second) shaft speeds and medium (150-700 millimeters per second) speeds using the purple and black adjusters. High-speed (anything over 700mm/s) can be adjusted internally by switching shims in the lower valve and can be done by the consumer.

    So is everything below 0.7 m/s considered low speed and above is high speed when shims come into play or does is start sooner, at 0.15 m/s?
    You've got two different, and often conflicting, definitions.

    For circuits your high speed is shim stack (or other sprung systems) and low speed is free-bleed or bypass.
    This means to activate the high speed damping circuits the low speed is choked to that pressure. That pressure requires a certain shaft speed which requires a certain wheel speed vs bump shape.

    For rider response low speed is body/chassis motion on top of the bike. High speed is terrain inputs.
    There are two different vibration systems with two different natural frequencies. I use one of those frequencies in my 1 page setup guide.

    The circuit definition and the response definition and line up nicely or not at all. It depends on what you're trying to acheive, why and how.

    High speed extends up to the maximum shaft speeds you can generate. Which do depend on how heavy your damping is. Firmer damping slows shaft speeds by transferring more force directly through to the chassis and rider.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    What are the numbers for low and high speed? I found this from fast suspension:

    Riders can externally adjust compression for low (0-150 millimeters per second) shaft speeds and medium (150-700 millimeters per second) speeds using the purple and black adjusters. High-speed (anything over 700mm/s) can be adjusted internally by switching shims in the lower valve and can be done by the consumer.

    So is everything below 0.7 m/s considered low speed and above is high speed when shims come into play or does is start sooner, at 0.15 m/s?
    They sound like they are describing a common poppet valve high speed adjuster. The "medium" speed is adjusting the platform/preload on the valve which moves the knee of the curve up and down around that range they quote. Whether its shims or a poppet they usually open somewhere under 250mm/s but can be higher. Low speed is always under 250mm/s though

    In damping terms, low speed is bleed and high speed is shims but in terms of what happens on the trail a lot of "low speed" events are well in to the point where the shims have opened so the "mid speed" term is useful here.

    Oh yeah a couple more notes on why we compare slope rather than force on these graphs - once you extrapolate the line out to 4m/s and higher a 20N difference becomes nothing. That's roughly 2kg or 4lb. But just a 20% change in slope might about 80N at 4m/s.

    The difference from a pike rc to the green line is about 60%.

    Also no one runs their adjusters fully closed! Comparing force alone at this range is pointless, it is only showing the level of platform
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Oh yeah a couple more notes on why we compare slope rather than force on these graphs - once you extrapolate the line out to 4m/s and higher a 20N difference becomes nothing. That's roughly 2kg or 4lb. But just a 20% change in slope might about 80N at 4m/s.
    You cannot extrapolate from 0.8 m/s to 4m/s or further. It is like testing a car at 12km/h in first gear your driveway and pretending you know how it'll drive on the highway.

    As I said before. A lot of interesting things happen past 1.5 m/s in those dampers. Things you haven't seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Also no one runs their adjusters fully closed! Comparing force alone at this range is pointless, it is only showing the level of platform
    Yes they do. Myself included on both ends of my bike.
    Because the truncated quadratic transition you get from a free-bleed has no performance advantages and several disadvantages over running the correct stack.

    Then you've got the suspension that doesn't even run a free-bleed. Koni would like a word.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You cannot extrapolate from 0.8 m/s to 4m/s or further.
    Hey Dougal
    Would you share a graph or plot of what happens at higher speeds? Interested to see just what your taking about from a dyno perspective. Also interested in how to best fix the problem you guys are taking about.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Hey Dougal
    Would you share a graph or plot of what happens at higher speeds? Interested to see just what your taking about from a dyno perspective. Also interested in how to best fix the problem you guys are taking about.
    Here's a pretty picture of the stock C1 mid-valve response that you cannot get from a dyno.
    Rockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?-charger-1-mid-valve-stock-50%25.png.

    The mid valve damping forces flatten out and dip as the check shim folds and then start climbing at a rate that far exceeeds the damping of a closed RCT3 the base valve.
    Reducing the shim thickness does virtually nothing to help this.

    Basically the mid-valve, even with the base valve bypass closed takes over the majority of the damping forces in the RCT3 and they keep building to levels that no normal rider needs. The RC of course has a ridiculous base valve stack (aka lockout) which still dominates on that version.

    If the RCT3 base valve bypass is run open, the pressure gradients go negative until the basevalve can build enough velocity to build choke pressure, the damper cavitates, which reduces damping forces but also sucks in air. Which is why hard ridden Charger dampers are swollen and foamed.

    Stock Charger 2 isn't quite as bad as Stock Charger 1. Simply due to the difference in shaft/bore ratio reducing midvalve flow. But the shape is almost identical.
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  52. #52
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    I think I got it.
    The mid valve bypass port doesn't have enough flow effecting compression damping in two ways. Cavitation and flow restriction. This overrides the Compression circuit at high velocity and seems like it would get worse the more open you run the compression.

    Does a damper like the Fox Grip2 have a similar problem? Or is there enough flow to counteract it.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    I think I got it.
    The mid valve bypass port doesn't have enough flow effecting compression damping in two ways. Cavitation and flow restriction. This overrides the Compression circuit at high velocity and seems like it would get worse the more open you run the compression.
    Yes. The compression damping forces also add together to create the spiking we all know and hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Does a damper like the Fox Grip2 have a similar problem? Or is there enough flow to counteract it.
    I haven't actually been into a Grip 2 yet. But all the previous Fox FIT dampers do not have that problem. They flow pretty well. It's a combo of insufficient compression damping and a reliance on modes that hampers most fox dampers.
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    So, if I understand everything correctly, to improve charger 1 RCT3 a bit is to:
    * soften compression shim stack
    * soften rebound shim stack (?)
    If above is not enough,to improve it even more:
    * increase flow for HSC circuit, but this requires drilling, cutting etc, so overall much better to send it to somebody who knows what he is doing

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    So, if I understand everything correctly, to improve charger 1 RCT3 a bit is to:
    * soften compression shim stack
    * soften rebound shim stack (?)
    If above is not enough,to improve it even more:
    * increase flow for HSC circuit, but this requires drilling, cutting etc, so overall much better to send it to somebody who knows what he is doing
    Yes.

    Plus Luftkappe or Debonair air spring on the other side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    So, if I understand everything correctly, to improve charger 1 RCT3 a bit is to:
    * soften compression shim stack
    * soften rebound shim stack (?)
    If above is not enough,to improve it even more:
    * increase flow for HSC circuit, but this requires drilling, cutting etc, so overall much better to send it to somebody who knows what he is doing
    Reducing preload on the compression stack may have slight benefit in sensitivity (more on the RC) but softening an already underdamped fork is kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Remember platform is different to damping coefficient.

    Depending on your weight, a rebound retune can have some good gains. Itís stiff but not monarch plus stiff. Just removing the hoop shim makes it too soft but if you have a newer fork with extra shims for tuning you can play with adding those in after removing the preload.

    Do NOT drill anything

    Donít forget people a good service, debonair upgrade and correct set up gives you by far and away the most gains.

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    Thereís a bunch of dyno graphs here to get a bit more of a comparison-

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/w...ng%20Guide.pdf

    The top graph compares the ďplatformĒ type stacks, the softest one is 220N closed, the RCT3 generates 90N (roughly 9kg) closed.

    Even their softest trail stack has a steeper slope with a slightly softer platform. ie even though is blows off 30N earlier, it reaches 150N at 800mm/s, the same as an RCT3 at that speed. Meaning from there on the pike has less damping

    Even the absolute softest stack of all makes 100N at 800mm/s and actually that one matches a charger damper in slope!

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Reducing preload on the compression stack may have slight benefit in sensitivity (more on the RC) but softening an already underdamped fork is kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Remember platform is different to damping coefficient.
    Underdamped? Seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Donít forget people a good service, debonair upgrade and correct set up gives you by far and away the most gains.
    None of those changes address the harshness issues from the Charger damper.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Thereís a bunch of dyno graphs here to get a bit more of a comparison-

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/w...ng%20Guide.pdf

    The top graph compares the ďplatformĒ type stacks, the softest one is 220N closed, the RCT3 generates 90N (roughly 9kg) closed.
    Those are Manitou ABS+ damper curves and the ABS+ don't have spiking issues like the Chargers.

    The force from closed platform at the far left of the graph is not the problem. The problem is the mid-valve spiking to unwanted forces at higher shaft speeds.
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    There is absolutely, categorically no spiking or cavitating at the mid valve in any charger damper. Until someone produces the results from a 4m/s dyno run (ie like the one push industries has and also confirm the mid valve has no effect) to prove otherwise, claiming that they do is grossly misleading.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    There is absolutely, categorically no spiking or cavitating at the mid valve in any charger damper. Until someone produces the results from a 4m/s dyno run (ie like the one push industries has and also confirm the mid valve has no effect) to prove otherwise, claiming that they do is grossly misleading.
    You think it doesn't exist because you can't see it, measure it or feel it with a 0.8 m/s dyno run.

    ROFL. Take a look at where 0.8m/s is on this graph:



    Do the maths. Calculate out the pressure gradients, convert then to forces. Call back when you know what it's doing.
    Hey, maybe just ride the fork on a rocky trail at speed!

    Ignorance does not disprove existance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Reducing preload on the compression stack may have slight benefit in sensitivity (more on the RC) but softening an already underdamped fork is kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Remember platform is different to damping coefficient.

    Depending on your weight, a rebound retune can have some good gains. Itís stiff but not monarch plus stiff. Just removing the hoop shim makes it too soft but if you have a newer fork with extra shims for tuning you can play with adding those in after removing the preload.

    Do NOT drill anything

    Donít forget people a good service, debonair upgrade and correct set up gives you by far and away the most gains.
    What would you do to improve a charger 1 pike RC? Do you think that it's already good enough and it just requires minor changes?

    Because i think that it's a very bad fork, very far away from a manitou mattoc (for example).
    Things like debonair upgrade didn't do anything for the High Speed beating.

    I'm just curious because you keep saying it doesn't have any particular issue but still it sucks as a fork to me and to many others. So there must be some BIG problem elsewhere.
    I say big because there is a big gap between a charger 1 RC and a good fork.

    I had the "luck" of owning 2 RCs, both serviced regularly, i'm no suspension expert, i just use my bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    What would you do to improve a charger 1 pike RC? Do you think that it's already good enough and it just requires minor changes?

    Because i think that it's a very bad fork, very far away from a manitou mattoc (for example).
    Things like debonair upgrade didn't do anything for the High Speed beating.

    I'm just curious because you keep saying it doesn't have any particular issue but still it sucks as a fork to me and to many others. So there must be some BIG problem elsewhere.
    I say big because there is a big gap between a charger 1 RC and a good fork.

    I had the "luck" of owning 2 RCs, both serviced regularly, i'm no suspension expert, i just use my bike.
    Thereís no ďbigĒ problem, apart from a small contingent of forum users perpetuating a theory that there is some massive design flaw. Once one person thinks there is a fault suddenly everyone thinks they have it. I see it all the time, itís like bird flu. Itís just concentrated when you see it online but in the real world people just arenít that phased.

    Most issues come down to fairly basic things like too much air or too little, too much rebound damping, too many tokens, pumped up bladder, bushings too tight etc

    Telescopic forks have huge forces going in to them so things like friction from bushing bind on a square hit is more likely to cause harshness than damping

    People tend to make assumptions and think they know how to Fix an issue so when itís harsh theyíll keep making the spring softer, adding more tokens and slowing the rebound when in reality the opposite is needed.

    If I could change the charger 1 I would use a base valve that lets the shims create some actual damping. It is common for harshness to come from a fork being too soft and ramping up suddenly against the air spring. You need some damping to absorb the bump energy, itís counter intuitive but makes sense once you think about it and test it. Iíve tried people on both softer and harder valving in other forks and the harder one was often the preferred one! Thatís just how soft the average damper is.

    The original pike air spring was better than previous attempts but still not great, debonair makes a huge improvement.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Thereís no ďbigĒ problem, apart from a small contingent of forum users perpetuating a theory that there is some massive design flaw. Once one person thinks there is a fault suddenly everyone thinks they have it. I see it all the time, itís like bird flu. Itís just concentrated when you see it online but in the real world people just arenít that phased.

    Most issues come down to fairly basic things like too much air or too little, too much rebound damping, too many tokens, pumped up bladder, bushings too tight etc

    Telescopic forks have huge forces going in to them so things like friction from bushing bind on a square hit is more likely to cause harshness than damping

    People tend to make assumptions and think they know how to Fix an issue so when itís harsh theyíll keep making the spring softer, adding more tokens and slowing the rebound when in reality the opposite is needed.

    If I could change the charger 1 I would use a base valve that lets the shims create some actual damping. It is common for harshness to come from a fork being too soft and ramping up suddenly against the air spring. You need some damping to absorb the bump energy, itís counter intuitive but makes sense once you think about it and test it. Iíve tried people on both softer and harder valving in other forks and the harder one was often the preferred one! Thatís just how soft the average damper is.

    The original pike air spring was better than previous attempts but still not great, debonair makes a huge improvement.
    Everyone i know in real world gets High Speed beating with the pike RC, it's not an air pressure/rebound setting issue.
    They are not influenced by anyone, the difference is simple. During bike Park days with the pike RC i had to stop because my hands hurt, with the mattoc i don't.
    It's not in my head, it's real and the problem is very clear.

    I am the same guy that sets the pressure/rebound on my DVO diamond and on my mattoc, and i find those 2 a lot better than pike RC in every aspect.

    Now, as i already said, i am not a suspension expert but just a user.
    I don't know if the problem is in the High Speed valve, mid valve, too much or too low damping, anything else. But there is a problem and it's a big one, because those forks are far from being "fine".
    I found the rct3 a lot better, not as good as the mattoc but i could consider it "ok".

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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Everyone i know in real world gets High Speed beating with the pike RC, it's not an air pressure/rebound setting issue.
    They are not influenced by anyone, the difference is simple. During bike Park days with the pike RC i had to stop because my hands hurt, with the mattoc i don't.
    It's not in my head, it's real and the problem is very clear.

    I am the same guy that sets the pressure/rebound on my DVO diamond and on my mattoc, and i find those 2 a lot better than pike RC in every aspect.

    Now, as i already said, i am not a suspension expert but just a user.
    I don't know if the problem is in the High Speed valve, mid valve, too much or too low damping, anything else. But there is a problem and it's a big one, because those forks are far from being "fine".
    I found the rct3 a lot better, not as good as the mattoc but i could consider it "ok".
    It will be the combination of the preloaded stack and minimal high speed damping as this is a common cause of harshness.

    Charger 2 improved this hugely and gets even better with revalving

    The diamond is a better damper than C1 as well, the base valve is very good at generating compression damping and is one of my favourites to tune

    Canít comment on the mattoc as Iíve never seen one in the flesh let alone worked on it, but I strongly suspect it has more damping than C1 too.

    You can find people complaining about any fork, Iíve worked with hundreds of happy pike riders but the C1 did have a limit to who it was suitable for.
    Last edited by JohnnyC7; 01-12-2019 at 01:27 PM.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Thereís no ďbigĒ problem, apart from a small contingent of forum users perpetuating a theory that there is some massive design flaw. Once one person thinks there is a fault suddenly everyone thinks they have it. I see it all the time, itís like bird flu. Itís just concentrated when you see it online but in the real world people just arenít that phased.

    Most issues come down to fairly basic things like too much air or too little, too much rebound damping, too many tokens, pumped up bladder, bushings too tight etc

    Telescopic forks have huge forces going in to them so things like friction from bushing bind on a square hit is more likely to cause harshness than damping

    People tend to make assumptions and think they know how to Fix an issue so when itís harsh theyíll keep making the spring softer, adding more tokens and slowing the rebound when in reality the opposite is needed.

    If I could change the charger 1 I would use a base valve that lets the shims create some actual damping. It is common for harshness to come from a fork being too soft and ramping up suddenly against the air spring. You need some damping to absorb the bump energy, itís counter intuitive but makes sense once you think about it and test it. Iíve tried people on both softer and harder valving in other forks and the harder one was often the preferred one! Thatís just how soft the average damper is.

    The original pike air spring was better than previous attempts but still not great, debonair makes a huge improvement.
    Wow.

    Just so I've got this right, you are claiming:
    • The customers and riders are all wrong and suffering from mass hysteria.
    • The guys getting such a beating on rocky trails that their hands go numb are just misinformed.
    • A fork with one rebound dial, one compression dial, one air valve and two tokens is so hard to setup that everyone gets it wrong.
    • A fork with so much compression damping that the maker put a lockout symbol on the compression dial (Charger 1 RC in Pike/Lyrik) needs more compression damping.
    • Because a completely different fork needed more compression damping, these do too.
    • A bit more negative air totally fixes the high speed harshness.
    • Customers shouldn't bother coming to you with Charger Damper harshness issues, because their expectations are the problem and there's no damping problem to fix.



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    It will be the combination of the preloaded stack and minimal high speed damping as this is a common cause of harshness.

    Charger 2 improved this hugely and gets even better with revalving
    Here is your picture from earlier, it shows the C1 has more high speed damping than C2. Yet you're still claiming the exact opposite?



    A little bit of advice for you. When your data doesn't fit with reality, you need to question the data. Not just ignore reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Canít comment on the mattoc as Iíve never seen one in the flesh let alone worked on it, but I strongly suspect it has more damping than C1 too.

    You can find people complaining about any fork, Iíve worked with hundreds of happy pike riders but the C1 did have a limit to who it was suitable for.
    You've never seen a Mattoc in the flesh?

    Wow. That is weird. There's a heap of customers riding and racing them in your exact location. You do ride right?

    Mattoc MC^2 has adjustable HSC and LSC. With HSC wide open it has less damping than C1 RCT3 and C2 at 1 m/s. But the big differences come as the speeds pickup from there.
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Everyone i know in real world gets High Speed beating with the pike RC, it's not an air pressure/rebound setting issue.
    They are not influenced by anyone, the difference is simple. During bike Park days with the pike RC i had to stop because my hands hurt, with the mattoc i don't.
    It's not in my head, it's real and the problem is very clear.

    I am the same guy that sets the pressure/rebound on my DVO diamond and on my mattoc, and i find those 2 a lot better than pike RC in every aspect.

    Now, as i already said, i am not a suspension expert but just a user.
    I don't know if the problem is in the High Speed valve, mid valve, too much or too low damping, anything else. But there is a problem and it's a big one, because those forks are far from being "fine".
    I found the rct3 a lot better, not as good as the mattoc but i could consider it "ok".
    i dont really get johnnys claims either. i feel complete opposite of what he says, along with everyone i know that owns the fork, plus tons of people on this forum. but he just keeps repeating same thing over and over so i am under an impression he might be a robot.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    i dont really get johnnys claims either. i feel complete opposite of what he says, along with everyone i know that owns the fork, plus tons of people on this forum. but he just keeps repeating same thing over and over so i am under an impression he might be a robot.
    Harshness can be many things but people automatically assume harsh=too much damping but it is often not the case. You have to ride several different tunes back to back in the same fork to understand where the line is. Racetech have a nice graph in their suspension bible showing how feel and control drops off from both too much and too little damping. Iíve ridden dozens of different tunes and mid valve set ups in the charger 1 to know what works and what doesnít

    Iíve tested these things on the dyno and on the trails, myself and other riders across several brands of fork and shock and it holds up 100% of the time. Even totally unsolicited comments like ďI rode fork X and It felt smoother than fork YĒ can be traced back to a more appropriate damping.

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    Another customer here who thinks it has too much compression damping. I'm 215 lbs and still can only run 2-3 clicks before it gets harsh. That took me a bit to figure out because I like a supportive fork and initially set it up to feel similar to my Fox 36 on the street but on the trail it was very harsh. I played around with lower pressures but eventually figured out it's better to run with more pressure, as linear as possible, and dial back the compression.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Another customer here who thinks it has too much compression damping. I'm 215 lbs and still can only run 2-3 clicks before it gets harsh. That took me a bit to figure out because I like a supportive fork and initially set it up to feel similar to my Fox 36 on the street but on the trail it was very harsh. I played around with lower pressures but eventually figured out it's better to run with more pressure, as linear as possible, and dial back the compression.
    2-3 clicks makes no change to anything, it takes about 6 clicks from open before anything happens. And a fox 36 rc2 has more damping than a charger fork

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Harshness can be many things but people automatically assume harsh=too much damping but it is often not the case. You have to ride several different tunes back to back in the same fork to understand where the line is. Racetech have a nice graph in their suspension bible showing how feel and control drops off from both too much and too little damping. Iíve ridden dozens of different tunes and mid valve set ups in the charger 1 to know what works and what doesnít

    Iíve tested these things on the dyno and on the trails, myself and other riders across several brands of fork and shock and it holds up 100% of the time. Even totally unsolicited comments like ďI rode fork X and It felt smoother than fork YĒ can be traced back to a more appropriate damping.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    2-3 clicks makes no change to anything, it takes about 6 clicks from open before anything happens. And a fox 36 rc2 has more damping than a charger fork
    Are you okay Jonno? You keep writing stuff that makes absolutely no sense and continually contradicting yourself.

    @jeremy3220 is saying exactly that. Any closing of the LSC makes the fork too harsh even for his weight.

    A normal Fox 36 RC2 (i.e. not the 831 jump tune) has about 3x less compression damping than a Charger 1 RCT3.
    The ridiculously stiff 831 jump tune is almost the same as the Charger 1 RCT3 tune.
    Both with HSC open and LSC closed. This is completely obvious even at the 0.8 m/s speed range.

    Perhaps you'd like to spell out what you think is a good compression damping ratio and absolute target for a suspension fork?
    Maybe then we can make some progress instead of you saying the same weird things over and over.
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    Does anybody know how charger damper RC2 compares to charger 1 or 2 RCT3? They say middle HSC setting is the same as charger 2 RCT3 and you have two clicks less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Does anybody know how charger damper RC2 compares to charger 1 or 2 RCT3? They say middle HSC setting is the same as charger 2 RCT3 and you have two clicks less.
    Our distributors are still waiting for delivery. Should have all the info and tuning sorted in a few weeks.
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    Does any of this apply to the Charger dampers on the Boxxer?

    I've been running a Boxxer with the Charger 1 and the only big issue I had with the fork was dialing the spring rate - both in feel and reliability. All that went away when I took out the air spring and went to a coil.

    Maybe I don't know what I'm missing but I'm terribly sensitive to things not working "just right" on my rigs. But I can't say I've felt the Charger 1 to be bad.

    As that damper probably could use a full rebuild, I'm thinking about just buying a new Charger 2, which I can get very cheap.

    Any thought on if it would be worth it?

    Does any of the info in this thread apply to the Boxxer version of the C1 vs C2?

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Does any of this apply to the Charger dampers on the Boxxer?

    I've been running a Boxxer with the Charger 1 and the only big issue I had with the fork was dialing the spring rate - both in feel and reliability. All that went away when I took out the air spring and went to a coil.

    Maybe I don't know what I'm missing but I'm terribly sensitive to things not working "just right" on my rigs. But I can't say I've felt the Charger 1 to be bad.

    As that damper probably could use a full rebuild, I'm thinking about just buying a new Charger 2, which I can get very cheap.

    Any thought on if it would be worth it?

    Does any of the info in this thread apply to the Boxxer version of the C1 vs C2?
    Depends what info you are talking about, but the boxxer damper shares the same pistons and valving as a pike/lyrik for both charger 1 and 2.

    Darren from Push did some 4m/s dyno runs on a charger 2 fork just this weekend and proved there is no "spiking" from the damper at all. It's in the "charger 2 modifications" thread

    A charger 2 damper with HS adjuster is more useful than charger 1, like you say the spring change has more benefit and in my experience harshness is more likely to be flex/binding than the damper, which any dual crown fork is less prone to
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    Unless I am mistaken I don't believe the Charger 2 damper can be fitted in the earlier Charger 1 equipped boxxer as the top cap threads are different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    Unless I am mistaken I don't believe the Charger 2 damper can be fitted in the earlier Charger 1 equipped boxxer as the top cap threads are different.
    Actually yes I think you are correct, I believe it would need a stanchion change at least. I haven't done one yet. The bottom of the damper is different too and Boxxers usually have that plug at the end of the stanchion to seal the lower air cavity
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Does any of this apply to the Charger dampers on the Boxxer?

    I've been running a Boxxer with the Charger 1 and the only big issue I had with the fork was dialing the spring rate - both in feel and reliability. All that went away when I took out the air spring and went to a coil.

    Maybe I don't know what I'm missing but I'm terribly sensitive to things not working "just right" on my rigs. But I can't say I've felt the Charger 1 to be bad.

    As that damper probably could use a full rebuild, I'm thinking about just buying a new Charger 2, which I can get very cheap.

    Any thought on if it would be worth it?

    Does any of the info in this thread apply to the Boxxer version of the C1 vs C2?
    How heavy are you, which spring are you running and what terrain do you ride in?
    I've found those Boxxers are horrendous on rocky tracks. Like stopping to shake the blood back into your fingers all the time bad.

    Have you ever ridden a Dorado on the same tracks?

    As Rick pointed out, Charger 2 isn't a bolt-in. It could be done (change stanchion and maybe shag around with the lower leg interface) but also doesn't offer any real advantage. You're better to tune your Charger 1.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    How heavy are you, which spring are you running and what terrain do you ride in?
    I've found those Boxxers are horrendous on rocky tracks. Like stopping to shake the blood back into your fingers all the time bad.

    Have you ever ridden a Dorado on the same tracks?

    As Rick pointed out, Charger 2 isn't a bolt-in. It could be done (change stanchion and maybe shag around with the lower leg interface) but also doesn't offer any real advantage. You're better to tune your Charger 1.
    Thanks.

    I toggle between the firm blue and the red medium. Funny, but sag between the two is not much difference. Minimal preload on either. When I ran an air spring I did have to run at the higher end of the table to prevent bottoming out hard, but oddly (very oddly), I've got minimal problems with that on the coil - go figure ?

    Geared up about 180-185# probably.

    My local DH couldn't get any rockier, no joke. I'd call it "bouldery". But most of it is not super high speed, except on the open slopes - then its crazy fast. Most of its trails are bouldery, but tight, steep, and slick and off camber rooty, wet stuff - so not high speed there. Grip is a premium there. That local hill is something I've only seen a handful of riders be able to ride from top to bottom, at a good clip, without stopping.

    I run enough LSC to prevent help prevent dive on the steeps and with braking. I seem to run more LSC the most others.

    Getting full travel most of the time but rarely bottom out.

    Many I've ridden with complain of arm pump but that's something that just doesn't happen to me - so I can't relate to the comments about the hands. My quads burn out way before my hands and arms.

    Maybe my style is just "off" and responds well to that fork's misgivings?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Thanks.

    I toggle between the firm blue and the red medium. Funny, but sag between the two is not much difference. Minimal preload on either. When I ran an air spring I did have to run at the higher end of the table to prevent bottoming out hard, but oddly (very oddly), I've got minimal problems with that on the coil - go figure ?

    Geared up about 180-185# probably.

    My local DH couldn't get any rockier, no joke. I'd call it "bouldery". But most of it is not super high speed, except on the open slopes - then its crazy fast. Most of its trails are bouldery, but tight, steep, and slick and off camber rooty, wet stuff - so not high speed there. Grip is a premium there. That local hill is something I've only seen a handful of riders be able to ride from top to bottom, at a good clip, without stopping.

    I run enough LSC to prevent help prevent dive on the steeps and with braking. I seem to run more LSC the most others.

    Getting full travel most of the time but rarely bottom out.

    Many I've ridden with complain of arm pump but that's something that just doesn't happen to me - so I can't relate to the comments about the hands. My quads burn out way before my hands and arms.

    Maybe my style is just "off" and responds well to that fork's misgivings?
    I haven't got the stiffness of the Blue Firm spring, but the medium red is 44 lb/in. That would give a 85kg rider about 36mm sag and a frequency of 2.7 Hz. Which is about the firmest I'd recommend for someone not racing. I think the firm spring would be too much but it's interesting you can ride it.

    I'm a bit lighter and have ridden two of those forks. A mate has the same fork on a Glory. It came with a firm spring and that was absolutely ridiculous for him and me. I've ridden it on a medium and it's still very harsh on choppy terrain, buzzes your hands at speed as the damper kicks you on every rock or corrugation. I'd be on a soft coil (yellow, 37 lb/in) if I owned one for the terrain I ride.

    So you're running plenty of spring support, decent LSC and don't get any arm pump. What do you need that you're not getting?
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    I have just got a new bike with 2018/2019? Pike.
    4 rides in and the fork is really disappointing me, I just can't get it to feel right, pretty much can echo most of the sentiments on this thread, it makes me want to return my bike. It's ruining it. Have tried all sorts of settings pressues token blah blah, I have found the recommended pressure as good as it gets but the fork bucks off any decent root etc the rebound is really inconsistent also. My old bike had a 2016Lyric, from factory it had 2 tokens and it has been awesome, was so easy to setup and feel great, I run about 5psi less than recommended. My new bike cannot keep pace through my regular trails and it's obvious it's the poor performing fork. My partners bike has a Fox Rhythm 34 and it is better than this pike! How can the fork pass the rider testing/input phase before release? If Dougal is reading this can you tune the damper to feel more lyric like?

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    How much do you weigh? The damper is pretty similar to your lyrik but the air spring is the thing that has a bigger difference, the lyrik is much more sensitive with its larger negative chamber

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot View Post
    I have just got a new bike with 2018/2019? Pike.
    4 rides in and the fork is really disappointing me, I just can't get it to feel right, pretty much can echo most of the sentiments on this thread, it makes me want to return my bike. It's ruining it. Have tried all sorts of settings pressues token blah blah, I have found the recommended pressure as good as it gets but the fork bucks off any decent root etc the rebound is really inconsistent also. My old bike had a 2016Lyric, from factory it had 2 tokens and it has been awesome, was so easy to setup and feel great, I run about 5psi less than recommended. My new bike cannot keep pace through my regular trails and it's obvious it's the poor performing fork. My partners bike has a Fox Rhythm 34 and it is better than this pike! How can the fork pass the rider testing/input phase before release? If Dougal is reading this can you tune the damper to feel more lyric like?
    I also prefer the Fox Grip 1 forks to the Pike.

    What I've settled on as far as setup (for now) on my Pike is: Close to recommended air pressure, removed one token, a click or two faster rebound, and backed off the LSC.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I haven't got the stiffness of the Blue Firm spring, but the medium red is 44 lb/in. That would give a 85kg rider about 36mm sag and a frequency of 2.7 Hz. Which is about the firmest I'd recommend for someone not racing. I think the firm spring would be too much but it's interesting you can ride it.

    I'm a bit lighter and have ridden two of those forks. A mate has the same fork on a Glory. It came with a firm spring and that was absolutely ridiculous for him and me. I've ridden it on a medium and it's still very harsh on choppy terrain, buzzes your hands at speed as the damper kicks you on every rock or corrugation. I'd be on a soft coil (yellow, 37 lb/in) if I owned one for the terrain I ride.

    So you're running plenty of spring support, decent LSC and don't get any arm pump. What do you need that you're not getting?

    Thanks for the info on that.

    My Boxxer is on a Glory as well, and while I can't get the front to feel as nice as the rear (which I find is typically the case on bikes with equal front and rear travel), I'm happy.


    You said, " So you're running plenty of spring support, decent LSC and don't get any arm pump. What do you need that you're not getting?"

    Yes, I was waiting for that. Honestly, I can't say I don't like the fork. It's just that I'm hearing all the time how others don't like the damper. So, I was throwing it out there to get your thoughts. Your info on the spring choice was very helpful, and so I can take that out of the equation. I suppose if your calculations are correct that puts sag at about %18, +/- depending on front/rear weight bias. I seem to get about 22% with about one shim of preload. Always seemed the anecdotal general/public consensus was that the red would be too soft for my weight. Between the blue and red, I've found the red to feel better.

    I guess I don't know why the fork works very well for me, and not others. I'm certain I ride it very hard on, well not to sound "too tuff", very harsh/extreme terrain. Been riding, and did race, for probably over 25 years now so I know where I stand. I do ride some "parky" stuff - buffed, man-made, tables, etc... but most of the time I'm on blown out steep, chunky stuff. I'm usually one of the few guys not shaking the soreness out of their hands/arms after a full descent.

    Anyway, thanks so much for your advice.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Thanks.

    I toggle between the firm blue and the red medium. Funny, but sag between the two is not much difference. Minimal preload on either. When I ran an air spring I did have to run at the higher end of the table to prevent bottoming out hard, but oddly (very oddly), I've got minimal problems with that on the coil - go figure ?

    Geared up about 180-185# probably.

    My local DH couldn't get any rockier, no joke. I'd call it "bouldery". But most of it is not super high speed, except on the open slopes - then its crazy fast. Most of its trails are bouldery, but tight, steep, and slick and off camber rooty, wet stuff - so not high speed there. Grip is a premium there. That local hill is something I've only seen a handful of riders be able to ride from top to bottom, at a good clip, without stopping.

    I run enough LSC to prevent help prevent dive on the steeps and with braking. I seem to run more LSC the most others.

    Getting full travel most of the time but rarely bottom out.

    Many I've ridden with complain of arm pump but that's something that just doesn't happen to me - so I can't relate to the comments about the hands. My quads burn out way before my hands and arms.

    Maybe my style is just "off" and responds well to that fork's misgivings?
    Iím on a boxxer charger 1 WC and also donít get all the hate on the fork. Maybe just donít know what Iím missing but itís been a good fork for me, admittedly Iím not the most aggressive rider though so full travel is nearly impossible even with no tokens and even set the HSC to the soft tune. Rode it at the end of a dry blown out dusty season at Northstar and even with all the braking bumps on livewire and other complaining of arm pump I just didnít have any of it, actually increased my spring rate, removed all tokens, set shim stack to soft and ran the LSC compression more open than the year before and it actually felt smoother. Seems I like a firmer more linear spring with less compression vs a softer progressive one and more damping. Just seems to track the ground better and not pack in stutters. Also removing the massive amounts of grease stuffed in the air chamber from the factory made an improvement (get as much negative chamber volume as possible).

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Iím on a boxxer charger 1 WC and also donít get all the hate on the fork. Maybe just donít know what Iím missing but itís been a good fork for me, admittedly Iím not the most aggressive rider though so full travel is nearly impossible even with no tokens and even set the HSC to the soft tune. Rode it at the end of a dry blown out dusty season at Northstar and even with all the braking bumps on livewire and other complaining of arm pump I just didnít have any of it, actually increased my spring rate, removed all tokens, set shim stack to soft and ran the LSC compression more open than the year before and it actually felt smoother. Seems I like a firmer more linear spring with less compression vs a softer progressive one and more damping. Just seems to track the ground better and not pack in stutters. Also removing the massive amounts of grease stuffed in the air chamber from the factory made an improvement (get as much negative chamber volume as possible).
    I never did get along well with the air performance-wise. After more than one disrupted bike trip over its unreliable air spring (for me) I took the opportunity and changed over to a coil - obviously more linear. I found it made a big difference. Seemed I was forever futzing around with psi on the air spring but never could get it just right. While on the coil, I find it hard to screw up. My trail bike is also coil on both ends, and its the same way. I can dial the settings on the damper and it does change the ride, but its like I'd really have to go out of my way to ruin the feel. I did have a Pike with a C1 on the trail bike and I will agree, I never could get that bugger to feel right. Replaced it with a Ribbon Coil which I really like.

    Since I'm often getting near full travel, without bottoming, I'd fear reducing the HSC on the damper lest I make bottoming a regular occurrence with coil.

    Perhaps my thinking is wrong, but I suppose one could say an "acid test" of too much HSC would be would be not regularly using most of your travel ? That is assuming correct spring rate.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Does anybody know how charger damper RC2 compares to charger 1 or 2 RCT3? They say middle HSC setting is the same as charger 2 RCT3 and you have two clicks less.
    I'm 90% through one of them right now.

    The RC2 has a linear shim stack which is much softer and the LSC dial appears useless. HSC uses the same coil spring to preload as the C1 RCT3 did. Click 0 is clear, from there is is probably adding more stiffness and preload than most people want but it's hard to feel the difference with the LSC bypass the way it is. With the RCT3 the LSC gets closed completely with HSC so it goes much firmer on the push-test.

    The midvalve and feedback you get from that is the same as always. But the damper is softer and has less support the the others because of the LSC arrangement.

    So to get these feeling the way I want, most people would need a custom shim stack and some other mods. Stay tuned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    I never did get along well with the air performance-wise. After more than one disrupted bike trip over its unreliable air spring (for me) I took the opportunity and changed over to a coil - obviously more linear. I found it made a big difference. Seemed I was forever futzing around with psi on the air spring but never could get it just right. While on the coil, I find it hard to screw up. My trail bike is also coil on both ends, and its the same way. I can dial the settings on the damper and it does change the ride, but its like I'd really have to go out of my way to ruin the feel. I did have a Pike with a C1 on the trail bike and I will agree, I never could get that bugger to feel right. Replaced it with a Ribbon Coil which I really like.

    Since I'm often getting near full travel, without bottoming, I'd fear reducing the HSC on the damper lest I make bottoming a regular occurrence with coil.

    Perhaps my thinking is wrong, but I suppose one could say an "acid test" of too much HSC would be would be not regularly using most of your travel ? That is assuming correct spring rate.
    Yea with coil you donít get the progression of an air spring so the HSC will be your only form of bottom out resistance aside from the bump stop which I am unsure if Rockshox still had bump setup tuning on that fork like they had at one time with tunable bump stops. The air spring is probably a bit too progressive for me as I usually end up with still about 1-1.5Ē travel left on avg but if I let more air out then the support I want is gone. Wish they had a debonair kit like the new stuff (I know they work entirely different) but all in all Iím ok with it as is since itís my DH bike that doesnít see as much use anymore (v10.4) but canít justify a new DH bike and it still outperforms my N4 in pure DH (that extra 1.5Ē in the back with ccdb coil just melts anything in the back).

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    Sorry to continue to derail this thread, but can anyone out there comment on the damper used by MRP in their Ribbon fork? I'm running one, and is it just me or does thing fork work really well? While I've had no major issues with the C1 on my Boxxer, I found I did could not get along with the C1 on the Pike (which the Ribbon replaced).  The Pike felt harsh with enough psi to prevent bottom out, but way too wallowy with less psi.

  89. #89
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    Our Charger 2 modifications and tuning are now easier for international customers:

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/unharsh...hockcraft.html

    We've streamlined the logistics and payment. Note the pricing shown is currently in $NZD. $USD is a lot less due to exchange rate and you don't pay our local sales tax (GST).

    $NZ230 is approx $US160.
    $NZ49 international return freight is approx $US33 at todays exchange rates.
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  90. #90
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    Great thread. Just read the whole thing. Still not sure whatís the best damper to have tuned as a drop in upgrade for an RS chassis (a new yari in my case)?

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Great thread. Just read the whole thing. Still not sure whatís the best damper to have tuned as a drop in upgrade for an RS chassis (a new yari in my case)?
    I recommend the RC2, I've had good results with it, and even without revalving the adjustment range is actually pretty useful. I like my charger 2 RC better than the charger 1 but it needed revalving to get there
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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    Anyone who has upgraded need to get rid of their Charger 1?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I recommend the RC2, I've had good results with it, and even without revalving the adjustment range is actually pretty useful. I like my charger 2 RC better than the charger 1 but it needed revalving to get there
    I just installed the Charger 2.1 RC2 on my older Pike. I've only ridden on the road to work so far but the initial impression is that just pushing down it feels more supple/more slippery than the Charger 1 RC I had before, and that's without doing any service on the rest of the fork. I just dropped the damper in. Being able to use a cassette tool to install it is great btw.

    The HSC dial is not a snug fit for some reason, there is a little bit of wiggle from left to right like the machining on the dial and the damper doesn't quite match. Is that normal for an RC2?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolatt View Post
    I just installed the Charger 2.1 RC2 on my older Pike. I've only ridden on the road to work so far but the initial impression is that just pushing down it feels more supple/more slippery than the Charger 1 RC I had before, and that's without doing any service on the rest of the fork. I just dropped the damper in. Being able to use a cassette tool to install it is great btw.

    The HSC dial is not a snug fit for some reason, there is a little bit of wiggle from left to right like the machining on the dial and the damper doesn't quite match. Is that normal for an RC2?
    Yeah that sounds pretty normal, did you use the o-ring under the HSC knob?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Yeah that sounds pretty normal, did you use the o-ring under the HSC knob?
    Yes I did

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    C2

    Got to ride one for 2 hard days. Have had plenty of time of C1 damped Pikes which never felt that good to me. I'm pretty darn sure this C2 feels good, better than the C1 Pike/Pikes. With the air spring set correctly seems I'm using just the right amount of travel. Accidentally started out with 12 clicks _in_ of LSC on my first ride and was sad the fork felt so rough. Once I found out that I had made the mistake and corrected the settings, it felt noticeably better. Pretty darn happy with the fork.

    I'm pretty finicky with suspension and I just can't seem to feel all the short comings of these dampers people are talking about. Perfect, no, but still pretty good.
    Last edited by Miker J; 04-27-2019 at 06:06 PM.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    C2

    Got to ride one for 2 hard days. Have had plenty of time of C1 damped Pikes which never felt that good to me. I'm pretty darn sure this C2 feels good, better than the C1 Pike/Pikes. With the air spring set correctly seems I'm using just the right amount of travel. Accidentally started out with 12 clicks _in_ of LSC on my first ride and was sad the fork felt so rough. Once I found out that I had made the mistake and corrected the settings, it felt noticeably better. Pretty darn happy with the fork.

    I'm pretty darn finicky with suspension and I just can't seem to feel all the short comings of these dampers people are talking about. Perfect, no, but still pretty good.
    Which Charger 1's did you spend the most time on and which flavour of C2 was this?
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  98. #98
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    First one was from when they first came out, 2015 I think. It was the first version. Current one is a C2 from 2019 I suppose, the most recent up until the 2.1

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    Here is a pic of my first ride impression of the 2.1 RC2. As you can see it's in two pcs

    Very shortly in to the ride it started to make a noise on compression that sounded a bit like a tight seal and oddly was more prominent when more rebound was would in. When I got home I undid the footnut and the topcap. It came out in 2pcs and dumped oil everywhere.
    Looks like the bottom shaft was not assembled correctly and the rebound piston is still sliding around in the top part.

    I dropped off at the shop today for warranty. Back in goes the C1 RC for a few weeks.




    Rockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?-img_0844.jpg
    Last edited by coolatt; 04-28-2019 at 06:32 PM.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The charger2 has a softer HSC stack than Charger1. But the original oil flow issues causing harshness remain.
    So is it worth the upgrade? I have a solo air pike boost and i upgraded to a debon air spring and rebuilt the damper but didn't touch the shim stack since someone said the soft stack setting would be too soft for my 230lbs geared up. It seems like it would be nice to have more settings for only $236 on ebay and you said its a little softer. Should have i adjusted my shim stack on my version 1 damper? I just rode the shock and its better but not thru rock gardens at high speed which I hate how the pike felt. Should i just be looking at a different shock? I have a v2 bronson and they did switch later versions to a fox 34 I believe.

  101. #101
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    Another option is to get the push parts
    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...e-1101538.html
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Another option is to get the push parts
    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...e-1101538.html
    The push upgrade is only available for the damper 2, I can get the spring instead of the debon air spring but I am actually ok with the new debon air spring. I would maybe get a avalanche damper. But really at those prices why not just look for a fox shock?

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    someone said the soft stack setting would be too soft for my 230lbs geared up.
    Well, Iím about the same weight on RCT3 Lyrik with charger 1 and new debonair spring. With fairly ok sag (approx 27%) I usually have 1 inch of travel left, sometimes a bit less. No tokens. So based on many treads and so on Iíll be changing shimstack (two large shims to the top) and using red line 2.5wt oil. Will see about the difference. Pretty curious about the results just need to wait for crush washers to arrive.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Well, Iím about the same weight on RCT3 Lyrik with charger 1 and new debonair spring. With fairly ok sag (approx 27%) I usually have 1 inch of travel left, sometimes a bit less. No tokens. So based on many treads and so on Iíll be changing shimstack (two large shims to the top) and using red line 2.5wt oil. Will see about the difference. Pretty curious about the results just need to wait for crush washers to arrive.
    Do you have a link to the thread about the stack or a picture of how the stack is supposed to look? I changed my 150 to 160mm travel and run no tokens and 95psi. Does runnin2.5wt as apposed to 3wt that big of a difference?

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Do you have a link to the thread about the stack or a picture of how the stack is supposed to look? I changed my 150 to 160mm travel and run no tokens and 95psi. Does runnin2.5wt as apposed to 3wt that big of a difference?
    Ended up with these two. Keep in mind first one is for pike RC which is even more stiff. But since I want to achieve less HSC and easier oil flow, I will change shims as per link below and use lighter oil. We n theory it should work (I hope). If not, I can always go back

    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...l#post13783584 - see #18

    https://translate.googleusercontent....pehW4GsLg4ysOA

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Does runnin2.5wt as apposed to 3wt that big of a difference?
    What you want to look for is cSt number of oil. 3wt Rockshox is around 15.7 cSt if I remember well. Red line 2.5wt is in the range of 8-9 cSt, so the difference is quite big. There is a large chart somewhere with lots of oils, but donít have a link right now

  107. #107
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    I did some more reading and your lyric apparently had a super stiff tune stock because the stack was stiffer and I'm guessing your a lighter rider. I am pretty sure i cant change the rebound stack to light since im a big guy but I could maybe change the compression stack but again Im a big guy and I don't have problems using full travel. Dugal mentioned its a design flaw with rock shock in general that causes the high speed issues so maybe I just need a fox shock or another brand. I have read that people felt the damper 2 was an upgrade and made a difference but again dugal said it still had issues. Will I be fine since Im a bigger rider and can get full travel or should I just dump this shock?

  108. #108
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    Alright I have been doing a bunch of reading and searching and I'm glad I did because rockshox just released a damper 2.1 that apparently addresses several shortcomings of the damper 1 & 2 and the hilarious part is its only $15 more than a damper 2 on ebay. Vitalmtb's review sold me and it fits in my boost a2 pike.
    https://m.vitalmtb.com/features/2020...Update-an,2657

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Alright I have been doing a bunch of reading and searching and I'm glad I did because rockshox just released a damper 2.1 that apparently addresses several shortcomings of the damper 1 & 2 and the hilarious part is its only $15 more than a damper 2 on ebay. Vitalmtb's review sold me and it fits in my boost a2 pike.
    https://m.vitalmtb.com/features/2020...Update-an,2657
    It doesn't though. The Charger 1 has an LSC circuit that actually works and the Charger 2/2.1 doesn't.
    The Charger 2 RC2 doesn't have enough support for bigger riders. Even at 70kg I can slam it through full travel with the dials all closed.

    You're better tuning the Charger 1.
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  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It doesn't though. The Charger 1 has an LSC circuit that actually works and the Charger 2/2.1 doesn't.
    The Charger 2 RC2 doesn't have enough support for bigger riders. Even at 70kg I can slam it through full travel with the dials all closed.

    You're better tuning the Charger 1.
    Maybe itís just me, but the more I read peopleís comments about charger 1/2/2.1 and others, the more opposed statements I see. Recently I read that LSC in charger 1 is crap, only 5 clicks from fully closed are actually working but not really good, now I see that itís actually working better than charger 2/2.1....

    What I really think people should be doing is ride it and if you find something that is wrong, learn basics and correct it yourself or go to a suspension tuner.

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Maybe itís just me, but the more I read peopleís comments about charger 1/2/2.1 and others, the more opposed statements I see. Recently I read that LSC in charger 1 is crap, only 5 clicks from fully closed are actually working but not really good, now I see that itís actually working better than charger 2/2.1....

    What I really think people should be doing is ride it and if you find something that is wrong, learn basics and correct it yourself or go to a suspension tuner.
    That's it. 5/20 clicks that work is better than 0/20 that work.

    Neither setup is ideal, but being able to actually close the hole is better.
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  112. #112
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    So, what you are saying is that Rockshox made a huge charger 2 update, then updated it even more to 2.1 and actually most (if not all) people are happy with upgrade, but LSC is not working at all and fork blows through a travel even with HSC fully closed? Donít get me wrong, I have not tried it, but this sounds....well not really right

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    So, what you are saying is that Rockshox made a huge charger 2 update, then updated it even more to 2.1 and actually most (if not all) people are happy with upgrade, but LSC is not working at all and fork blows through a travel even with HSC fully closed? Donít get me wrong, I have not tried it, but this sounds....well not really right
    Yes. Everyone who rides the RC2 aggressively is using the air spring to hold themselves up. RCT3 and RC still have the firmer preloaded shim stack inside.

    Those who upgraded from C1 to C2 and are much happier because the C2 (all variants) have softer compression damping than the C1. That's all. It's a nicer ride at medium speeds.

    Rockshox made huge reductions in manufacturing cost with the Charger 2. But they kept the same mid-valve issues from Charger 1 and for some reason neutered the LSC circuit.

    Where Fox also made huge reductions in manufacturing cost with Grip 2 over FIT4-RC2. But Fox got the mid-valve and base-valve designs right. They just valved it firmer than most people want and put it in an unsealable cartridge.
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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes. Everyone who rides the RC2 aggressively is using the air spring to hold themselves up. RCT3 and RC still have the firmer preloaded shim stack inside.

    Those who upgraded from C1 to C2 and are much happier because the C2 (all variants) have softer compression damping than the C1. That's all. It's a nicer ride at medium speeds.

    Rockshox made huge reductions in manufacturing cost with the Charger 2. But they kept the same mid-valve issues from Charger 1 and for some reason neutered the LSC circuit.

    Where Fox also made huge reductions in manufacturing cost with Grip 2 over FIT4-RC2. But Fox got the mid-valve and base-valve designs right. They just valved it firmer than most people want and put it in an unsealable cartridge.
    Would you rather have a grip 2 or fit 4 for blasting thru rock gardens at high speed? Guess I will dump my pike.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    So, what you are saying is that Rockshox made a huge charger 2 update, then updated it even more to 2.1 and actually most (if not all) people are happy with upgrade, but LSC is not working at all and fork blows through a travel even with HSC fully closed? Donít get me wrong, I have not tried it, but this sounds....well not really right
    Have you seen the low speed circuit or needle design? No? Listen to Dougal then, he knows what heís talking about.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Would you rather have a grip 2 or fit 4 for blasting thru rock gardens at high speed? Guess I will dump my pike.
    Grip2 is a better damper if you take the time to tune it. If you want an easier setup then get the fit4.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  117. #117
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    You can upgrade to an avalanche damper. If youíre over the pike check out the manitou Mattoc and Mezzer.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    You can upgrade to an avalanche damper. If youíre over the pike check out the manitou Mattoc and Mezzer.
    Im not over my pike, I just rebuilt the damper 1 and upgraded to tbe debon air spring and it does feel better. The only thing i dont like about it is when Im blasting full speed down a super rocky decent and my arms feel like they are gonna fall off. Bakers tank, a local trail where i have noticed this the most still has tons of snow on it so I cant test the service and new air spring. For $500 for a avalanche damper I can just buy a fox 36 performance with grip which is apparently better. Dougal just talks so poorly of the pike damper 2 and 2.1 and he seems to know what he is talking about. You would think a newer damper version would be better but i guess not. Maybe I just need to get it tuned. I could get a 2.1 damper and then the push hc97 but then againg i could get an avalanche damper for that. I don't know what to do

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    The only thing i dont like about it is when Im blasting full speed down a super rocky decent and my arms feel like they are gonna fall off.
    That is the bit that matters. Anything can feel good on a smooth and flowing trail.
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  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That is the bit that matters. Anything can feel good on a smooth and flowing trail.
    Do you think a tune on my damper 1 will fix that or should i get a new shock? Which shock would you recommend? I run 160mm travel on my bronson

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Do you think a tune on my damper 1 will fix that or should i get a new shock? Which shock would you recommend? I run 160mm travel on my bronson
    Depends who tunes it. I also ride rocky trails and was horrified when I first got to ride a Charger 1 Pike.
    I do oil flow modifications as well as a shim tune. IMO both are needed.

    There aren't really any new forks that I know of that do well on those sort of trails. I ride a modified Manitou Mattoc (modification is a high flow mid-valve piston). I will be ordering a Mezzer when they ship in a week or so.
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  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Depends who tunes it. I also ride rocky trails and was horrified when I first got to ride a Charger 1 Pike.
    I do oil flow modifications as well as a shim tune. IMO both are needed.

    There aren't really any new forks that I know of that do well on those sort of trails. I ride a modified Manitou Mattoc (modification is a high flow mid-valve piston). I will be ordering a Mezzer when they ship in a week or so.

    So you wouldn't recommend a fox 36 with fit4 or grip either? I might just break down and buy a avy cartridge, everyone has nothing but good experiences with them and it seems like it will get me where I want to be although $449+ poorer.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    So you wouldn't recommend a fox 36 with fit4 or grip either? I might just break down and buy a avy cartridge, everyone has nothing but good experiences with them and it seems like it will get me where I want to be although $449+ poorer.
    A fox 36 with any of the available dampers is a very good fork. Grip2>grip=fit4. Fit4 has lockout and trail mode, which is nice and Grip2 has everything but a lockout. Even the budget grip damper is very good for the adjustments that it has.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    A fox 36 with any of the available dampers is a very good fork. Grip2>grip=fit4. Fit4 has lockout and trail mode, which is nice and Grip2 has everything but a lockout. Even the bugit grip damper is very good for the adjustments that it has.
    But how do they handle high speed rock gardens that make your arms feel like they will fall off with a pike? I can get a fox 34 160mm for the same price as a avy cartridge for my pike. Most of the reviews i have read say that fox and rockshox dampers are compareable.

  125. #125
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    No spiking at all on fox dampers. Grip2 is by far the best damper I have ever ridden. Air spring on the new pike is better, but the vorsprung luftkappe makes the fox spring the best of the best.

    If your going to charge high speed rock gardens with a 160 fork, the extra stiffness of a 36 is noticeable.

    For you I would say 36 with vorsprung luftkappe and grip1 damper.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    No spiking at all on fox dampers. Grip2 is by far the best damper I have ever ridden. Air spring on the new pike is better, but the vorsprung luftkappe makes the fox spring the best of the best.

    If your going to charge high speed rock gardens with a 160 fork, the extra stiffness of a 36 is noticeable.

    For you I would say 36 with vorsprung luftkappe and grip1 damper.
    vorsprung luftkappe over the 2019 new fox air spring? I can get the new 2.1 damper for my pike which would be my cheapest route with the new debonair spring or get a vorsprung luftkappebut for the pike but the fox 36 grip 2 is that much better? It would be cheaper to get a avy damper as well but i found a 36 grip 2 for $700. I live in a resort town and Im not made of money but I want my bike to ride better on the dh rockey sections. Dougal knows his stuff, I would hate to spend a bunch of money and still not be happy.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    vorsprung luftkappe over the 2019 new fox air spring? I can get the new 2.1 damper for my pike which would be my cheapest route with the new debonair spring or get a vorsprung luftkappebut for the pike but the fox 36 grip 2 is that much better? It would be cheaper to get a avy damper as well but i found a 36 grip 2 for $700. I live in a resort town and Im not made of money but I want my bike to ride better on the dh rockey sections. Dougal knows his stuff, I would hate to spend a bunch of money and still not be happy.
    The vorsprung luftkappe has a much bigger negative chamber and really flattens out the spring curve. Much better mid stroke support and it also has a pneumatic top out that gives you essentially zero preload. This takes all of the impact away when the wheel leaves the ground and hits again. It is also manufactured to high tolerances so it fits perfectly inside the air chamber.

    No experience with the 2.1, but from what I've read its more a friction reduction with similar internals.

    Grip2 with it's loose seals is the smoothest damper I've ever cycled. Damping range is very good, although HSC could have a lighter tune. Most seem to run it near open.

    You will notice the stiffness increase going from a pike to the 36 and a decrease going to a 34.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    If your going to charge high speed rock gardens with a 160 fork, the extra stiffness of a 36 is noticeable.
    +1 to this. Max travel on 34 should be 150mm. Even then it's a bit wobbly on the rough stuff. If you're going to go 160, stick with 36 or the Pike.

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    FWIW according to Manitou the yari/Lyrik is significantly stiffer in all directions compared to the 36. I was surprised to see that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    FWIW according to Manitou the yari/Lyrik is significantly stiffer in all directions compared to the 36. I was surprised to see that.
    Lyrik is a extremely strong chassis and the stock air sting is better than fox.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

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    I have limited experience with various forks and I'm not a great rider, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I have a 2017 boost Pike with FAST 3-way damper and the Debonair spring upgrade. The damper upgrade was about the same price as the charger 2.1. Brennan Autosports did mine and just did the damper upgrade alone without a fork rebuild. It did take a while to get it back so that might be a major problem for you though.

    Anyway, like I said, I'm not a great rider, but I did a Moab trip last fall on it and it absolutely smashed through parts of the jeep trail sections that are constant 12"-18" drops littered with rocks that you do at like 25mph. I was literally picking terrible lines intentionally just to see how much it could really smash through. I messed up bad at one point and took a nose dive off the top of a triple set of 2' drops spaced about 3/4 of a bike length apart; I still don't know how it got me out of without a trip to the hospital. I was expecting the fork to dive hard on the first one and to take a trip over the bars down the rest but it handled it and got me out the bottom. That bottom also ended up being about a 5' drop to flat that it managed with ease.

    Other that that, honestly this fork has been something I didn't even put another thought into. It just worked and I ignored it while I've been trying out different rear shocks. I finally started trying out other forks and so far, I think I'll probably be putting the Pike back on or getting a lyrik with the FAST damper.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    FWIW according to Manitou the yari/Lyrik is significantly stiffer in all directions compared to the 36. I was surprised to see that.
    Whats weirder is that the lyrik use the exact same damper as the pike and the yari a cheaper one and if im reading correctly basically the exact same uppers and lowers aside from them being longer travel. Is there something to be said about having longer stantions that make it stiffer. The pike maxes at 160 but a lyrik 160 can probably go up to a 170 or 180 and be converted easily.
    Aand sorry if I hijacked this thread, we are talking about the pike damper and how it apparently is lacking and possible fixes.

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Whats weirder is that the lyrik use the exact same damper as the pike and the yari a cheaper one and if im reading correctly basically the exact same uppers and lowers aside from them being longer travel. Is there something to be said about having longer stantions that make it stiffer. The pike maxes at 160 but a lyrik 160 can probably go up to a 170 or 180 and be converted easily.
    Aand sorry if I hijacked this thread, we are talking about the pike damper and how it apparently is lacking and possible fixes.
    Pike and Lyrik share some dampers (RC and RCT3). The RC2 is Lyrik only. The Yari comes with motion control damper that gets out of it's depth fast when the going gets rough but can be updated to Lyrik spec with a damper swap.

    As far as stiffness, the Lyrik and Yari are the same and have more material in the crown and brace than the Pike.
    But there are some select models (like 29+ Pike) which actually are Lyrik/Yari chassis.
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  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Pike and Lyrik share some dampers (RC and RCT3). The RC2 is Lyrik only. The Yari comes with motion control damper that gets out of it's depth fast when the going gets rough but can be updated to Lyrik spec with a damper swap.

    As far as stiffness, the Lyrik and Yari are the same and have more material in the crown and brace than the Pike.
    But there are some select models (like 29+ Pike) which actually are Lyrik/Yari chassis.
    How do you feel about the newest lyrik Charger 2 RC2 damper?

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    How do you feel about the newest lyrik Charger 2 RC2 damper?
    Underwhelmed. I was hoping they would fix the LSC dial so it worked like a normal LSC dial.
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  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Another option is to get the push parts
    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...e-1101538.html
    It's funny you mentioned this because i decided what i am doing, i bought a 2.1 damper kit for $212 shipped on world wide cyclery, they have 15% off right now and then i am buying a push hc97 and I am gonna install it myself. The nice thing is the push kit comes with a rebound tuning kit and directions how to set up different tunes. I read good thing about it as well. I wanted to do avalanche but it was just gonna cost too much with abs and the other mod and it sounded like he wasbusy right now. Plus i can now play with my tune and learn a little about tuning.

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    Same. Initial impression is that 2.1 needs a bit more support but might suffer from choking at higher shaft speeds; two things they claimed to have improved upon for 2020, but maybe they didnt go far enough. Still a very good fork. Great chassis and supple air spring.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Same. Initial impression is that 2.1 needs a bit more support but might suffer from choking at higher shaft speeds; two things they claimed to have improved upon for 2020, but maybe they didnt go far enough. Still a very good fork. Great chassis and supple air spring.
    It's funny because origionally everyone thought sealed dampers were so good because they are sealed and lighter but now you have a fox grip 2 that isint totally sealed. I wonder how long before rockshox copies the new fox grip 2 design. Probably in a year since that was how long it took them to upgrade the damper 2 that was so amazing screwing everyone that bought the newest best damper 2. Im gonna give the setup i just bought a try and if I hate it im moving to a fox grip 2.

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    Yup. I guess bc its neat and tidy and maybe has longer service intervals. None of the $10k works showa kyb wp motocross forks are sealed to my knowledge. #braap

    Keep us posted.

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Same. Initial impression is that 2.1 needs a bit more support but might suffer from choking at higher shaft speeds; two things they claimed to have improved upon for 2020, but maybe they didnt go far enough. Still a very good fork. Great chassis and supple air spring.
    That's exactly what they do. Choke on fast stuff and have no support at slower speeds. I can fix both those but it's a bit ridiculous that it needs fixed to work well for riders of exactly the target size, speed and terrain.
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    pm'd

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    Do all rs forks (lyrik/pike) have slight bushing knock? Both my rs forks feel loose in the bushings until i flip the bike upside down and let oil flow behind the bushings, then the knock calms down a bit. Do fox forks do this?

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by matixsnow View Post
    Do all rs forks (lyrik/pike) have slight bushing knock? Both my rs forks feel loose in the bushings until i flip the bike upside down and let oil flow behind the bushings, then the knock calms down a bit. Do fox forks do this?
    Knock? I bet its your bearings in the steerer tube. If it's the shock i would be pulling that thing apart. How many volume spacers you have and how much you weigh vs what pai you running? Could be bottoming out hard. In 220 with gear and it says 95psi.

  144. #144
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    Am I crazy or does the Pike RC rebound adjustment effect the compression stroke? Noticed it feeling harsh on the trail after adding a click of rebound damping. Testing by bouncing in the parking lot I swear the fork feels more plush just backing off the rebound one click.

  145. #145
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    Charger 2 rct it absolutely does. Severely.

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    Technically yes, it affects very low speed but depends where in the range you are as to how big the effect will be.

    If either of your adjusters are close to closed it could be just as likely that the ďharshnessĒ is from the increased hysteresis you get from that kind of setting, and why itís not a good idea to be running them closed.

  147. #147
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    I'm about 6-7 clicks from closed I think. It seems to affect the harshness at all speeds.

    Do all forks do this? Haven't noticed it on my 36's.

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Am I crazy or does the Pike RC rebound adjustment effect the compression stroke? Noticed it feeling harsh on the trail after adding a click of rebound damping. Testing by bouncing in the parking lot I swear the fork feels more plush just backing off the rebound one click.
    Yes, closing the rebound further makes the mid-valve harsher. And vice-versa.

    Most forks don't do that in a noticable way. The Chargers have the most restrictive mid-valve.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I'm about 6-7 clicks from closed I think. It seems to affect the harshness at all speeds.

    Do all forks do this? Haven't noticed it on my 36's.
    Sounds like something else is the issue, the check valve is soft enough so it opens long before the LSR bleed is creating enough force to be an issue at high speed

    Any fork without a check valve on the rebound bleed (ie all of them, Iím struggling to think of a modern fork with it. Manitou spv did but thatís going back!) will have a small effect at low speed ie sub 5in/sec

  150. #150
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    To follow up, there is 1 lb difference between -12 clicks and closed under 5in/s. Or .6 lb between -12 and -6 (ie the range that covers most people)

    That drops away to almost nothing everywhere above 10 in/s

    Rockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?-rc2.1-effect-rebound-lsc-%40-32.5-.sec-1.jpgRockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?-rc2.1-effect-rebound-lsc-%405in.sec-1.jpg
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  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes.

    Plus Luftkappe or Debonair air spring on the other side.
    What are your thoughts on the MRP Ramp Pro in addition to the DebonAir upgrade and a Charger 2 RCT3 for a 18 Revelation RC?

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLD1980 View Post
    What are your thoughts on the MRP Ramp Pro in addition to the DebonAir upgrade and a Charger 2 RCT3 for a 18 Revelation RC?
    What we found was as soon as the Luftkappe and Debonair came out, people stopped looking for additional air spring modifiers. They became good enough for the vast majority of people.

    The original MRP ramp control was a blow-off type that took a full return stroke to reset. So it wasn't something that would work for my type of riding.
    I've been on Manitou's IRT for about 3 years now. It does what I need.
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    So Quick Question: I have a 2015 Pike RCT3 and thinking about upgrading to a charger 2.1. Do i have to stick with RCT3 or can I drop in the RC2 upgrade kit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rean1mator View Post
    So Quick Question: I have a 2015 Pike RCT3 and thinking about upgrading to a charger 2.1. Do i have to stick with RCT3 or can I drop in the RC2 upgrade kit?
    Depends, guessing you dont have boost spacing so im not sue there is even a rc2 option on top of a rc2 is like $150 more if they have one for your fork. Honestly just get a normal rct3 2.1 from world wide cyclery and look for a discount code. I have 10% i dont think im gonna use. I got 15% off mine during a sale, paid like $210. You could find a damper 2 and upgrade it with a hc97, we dont need your input on the hc97 dougal. Can you give more specifics on your fork? Boost or not, 29 or 27.5, guessing you have a damper 1

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    Yeah, I'm getting the sense you can't do that based on the avaialable kits.

    I've got a non boost 27.5" pike 160mm either 2015 or 2016. Just picked it up to replace my 2014 fox 34 talas.

    Haven't installed it yet. Gonna throw it on tonight and maybe do a few rides on it first to get an understanding as to the damping characteristics as stock.

    I did order the debonair air spring kit for it and will be installing once it gets in.

    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Depends, guessing you dont have boost spacing so im not sue there is even a rc2 option on top of a rc2 is like $150 more if they have one for your fork. Honestly just get a normal rct3 2.1 from world wide cyclery and look for a discount code. I have 10% i dont think im gonna use. I got 15% off mine during a sale, paid like $210. You could find a damper 2 and upgrade it with a hc97, we dont need your input on the hc97 dougal. Can you give more specifics on your fork? Boost or not, 29 or 27.5, guessing you have a damper 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rean1mator View Post
    Yeah, I'm getting the sense you can't do that based on the avaialable kits.

    I've got a non boost 27.5" pike 160mm either 2015 or 2016. Just picked it up to replace my 2014 fox 34 talas.

    Haven't installed it yet. Gonna throw it on tonight and maybe do a few rides on it first to get an understanding as to the damping characteristics as stock.

    I did order the debonair air spring kit for it and will be installing once it gets in.
    Good call on the debon air spring. You should set it up like a 2020 pike. Use dynamic grease and 3ml of 0w30 in the top cap, how i do every fork now ive done a few. You could just swap out the damp 1 fluid for the new plush 3wt fluid new this year. A damper 2 will be better, can get a good deal on a version 2 on ebay or pay more for a 2.1. There arent huge changes in the 2.1. If you were gonna pay more for a rc2 i would say buy a damper 2 on ebay and get a hc97 and install it plus you get a custom tune, im assuming you are capable. My has the same fork and we did the debon air spring with dynamic grease and ow30 and swaped the damper 1 with the new plush 3wt and it was a big improvement in his opinion and he is happy and it didn't break the bank.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rockshox Pike Charger 2 upgrade. Worth it?-screenshot_20190926-143437_adobe-acrobat.jpg  


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    cool man thanks for the tips. I will look in to the damper 2 if i can get it for significantly cheaper.

    looked in to the push hc97 but it won't work wiht a non boost fork unfortunately.

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    Also, what is the benefit of using dynamic grease vs sram butter/slickoleum?


    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Good call on the debon air spring. You should set it up like a 2020 pike. Use dynamic grease and 3ml of 0w30 in the top cap, how i do every fork now ive done a few. You could just swap out the damp 1 fluid for the new plush 3wt fluid new this year. A damper 2 will be better, can get a good deal on a version 2 on ebay or pay more for a 2.1. There arent huge changes in the 2.1. If you were gonna pay more for a rc2 i would say buy a damper 2 on ebay and get a hc97 and install it plus you get a custom tune, im assuming you are capable. My has the same fork and we did the debon air spring with dynamic grease and ow30 and swaped the damper 1 with the new plush 3wt and it was a big improvement in his opinion and he is happy and it didn't break the bank.

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    Duh thats right, i know the hc97 is only boost. Dynamic grease with ow30 is supposed to be slicker. All i know is thats how they run 2020 pikes. You can get a damper 2 for $175 on ebay, 2.1 is 250$. You could get a tune on your damper 1. I know if you buy a runt for $200 it comes with instructions and shims for tunning. Honestly that may be a better investment than a damper 2.

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