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  1. #1
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    Rockshox Debonair 2021

    So Rockshox are at it again with air spring changes. Here's a recap.

    The 2015 Rockshox Pike A1 and 2016 Lyrik B1 used self balancing air springs where positive and negative chambers were equalised by a notch inside the stanchion. This notch met the air seal near top-out which filled the negative chamber but didn't pressurise it higher than the positive.

    These early forks were plagued with air leaks from the negative chamber into the lower legs. Caused mostly by too much clearance between the air shaft and the black plastic seal-head. So shaft deflection could burp the seal and pressurise the lower legs.

    This is why people were sliding zip-ties down past fork seals.

    Rockshox released a new seal-head with bigger seal to counter this leakage. It worked and came in most 200H service kits. Vorsprung have identifying pictures here: https://vorsprungsuspension.com/page...allation-setup

    A very good and popular upgrade for these was the Vorsprung Luftkappe. This replacement piston does three things.
    1. It moves the piston seal down relative to the equalisation port to create a higher negative compression ratio. This reduces top-out forces to zero.
    2. It increases negative volume through a domed cap (which reduces positive volume as a side-effect) so the negative spring effect extends deeper into travel.
    3. It removes the need for a top-out bumper which further increases negative air volume.

    The net result of these changes was a straighter air-spring curve. The first half of the stroke became a lot more linear from top-out through the midstroke. Using higher air pressure but getting better small bump response and mid-stroke support.

    At this point in time the Debonair name was being used by Rockshox in their rear shocks (with high volume, dual layer, positive and negative air-cans) and also for the Lyrik and Yari (same chassis) which had longer stanchions and 10mm longer negative air chamber than the A1 Pike.

    Rockshox took this opportunity around 2018 to release their first Debonair upgrade.


    They replaced the, previously removable, air piston with a riveted on plastic moulding with air channels to allow negative air to flow into the shaft. Using that internal volume to increase negative air volume. The air seal position stayed in much the same location keeping the compression ratio and positive/negative balance pretty much the same (near zero at top-out).

    The big engineering change was the stanchion end-cap seal-head. It was now machined aluminium (more precise than moulded plastic) and featured a DU guide bushing to keep shaft/seal alignment and prevent leaks to negative. This allowed less seal crush which reduced friction.

    All round a good upgrade. Doesn't have the same volume increase or compression ratio as a Luftkappe but was a drop-in upgrade that people bought in huge volumes to solve their forks previous problems. Solid win for Rockshox.

    The big criticism of this Debonair was the forks wouldn't sit at top-out. Just the weight of the bike would sag it and Rockshox own sag indicator stanchions had their customers getting concerned they'd got less than they paid for.

    Roll on today with Debonair 3 (that's my name, not RS's).
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...aver-2020.html


    There are two physical changes to this air shaft over Debonair 2.
    1. Longer shaft foot.
    2. Higher end-cap seal-head.

    The longer shaft foot does exactly one thing. It makes the shaft longer to move the lower legs down. This fixes the customer concern that their zero point has eaten a few mm of travel.

    The higher placed end-cap seal-head is required to fit the longer shaft foot. Without that the longer shaft foot would hit the end-cap at bottom-out. Causing damage, shock and noise. In addition RS have taken more negative volume. Ostensibly to reduce positive pressure ramp up in the lowers during deep compression.

    The downside to the higher end-cap is a reduced negative chamber volume. Expect this to be ignored or glossed over in initial releases.

    The expected ride changes:
    1. The fork will sit higher on it's travel indicators solely because the lowers have been spaced down.
    2. The lower negative volume will make the fork firmer off the top and ride higher still.
    3. Softer mid stroke (less support) due to the reduced negative volume.
    4. Less progressive due to lower leg pressure build-up? That's going to be hard to isolate on ride tests.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  2. #2
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    Looking at the pinkbike initial impressions, it looks like something I am going to get. I would love for my forks to ride a little higher than they currently do without having to over pressurize them.

    The bummer is I just did the lower service for both my lyrik and pike so when I order these I will have to pull them again. Maybe I can put some tape or something on the bottom holes so all the oil doesnít run out and I can just swap this part.


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  3. #3
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    I have a "2019" pike with the grey air piston and red anodized seal head. I'm assuming this is version 2 but would require the whole kit?

    Probably going to see if I can install a Luftkappe on a 2016 air shaft that I have lying around.

  4. #4
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    Maybe this will get rid of the ~5mm worth of dead travel on my Yari. I recently did the DebonAir upgrade on my A1 Yari. The fork would never return to full extension. I was always able to pull the fork up another few mm's. I juuust replaced the Yari with a DVO Diamond. The DVO always returns to full extension and has no dead travel. The DVO also rides higher in its travel.

    Maybe I'll hang onto the Yari and get the upgrade to my upgrade.

  5. #5
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    If you want more travel and aren't already running 180mm, you could just try to get your hands on one of the previous Debonair springs in the next size up if they're still available.

  6. #6
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    This is kinda funny because the previous Debonair spring was quite similar to the Luftkappe and Vorsprung have this in point 10 of the FAQ: Who is this NOT suited for?

    " If you're anal about your fork having an exact (but rounded-to-the-nearest-10mm) amount of travel. "


    Sounds like Rockshox have made things worse because so many customers don't understand their fork. Kinda like when they went to solo air over separate positive and negative.

  7. #7
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    Just ordered 2 of the foot nut/seal head kit.

    That is an interesting idea of just bumping up the travel by 10mm to account for the lower ride height. But since the price of the 2 upgrade kits was almost the same as a new air spring, I figured the new kit was the way to go.


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  8. #8
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    Damn it. I recently installed a 150mm debonair.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinimon View Post
    Damn it. I recently installed a 150mm debonair.
    The good this is that you can get the footnut and lower seal head separate.


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  10. #10
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    Or just keep the old debonair since it seems like itís probably the better spring anyway.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    The good this is that you can get the footnut and lower seal head separate.
    Yeah, I may get around to just buying the seal/nut kit and giving it a go since it's not expensive.

    I'll wait and see what real world experience/reviews are later on.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Maybe this will get rid of the ~5mm worth of dead travel on my Yari. I recently did the DebonAir upgrade on my A1 Yari. The fork would never return to full extension. I was always able to pull the fork up another few mm's. I juuust replaced the Yari with a DVO Diamond. The DVO always returns to full extension and has no dead travel. The DVO also rides higher in its travel.

    Maybe I'll hang onto the Yari and get the upgrade to my upgrade.
    Similar situation w/me with recent upgrade re: the dead travel.
    Also, explains why the height of my bike's front end/handlebars didn't really change when I put in the Debonair for 130mm, vs my orig 120mm.

    BUT, I'm very happy with my Yari now, on my hardtail. Love it, despite my original confusion.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So Rockshox are at it again with air spring changes. Here's a recap.

    The 2015 Rockshox Pike A1 and 2016 Lyrik B1 used self balancing air springs where positive and negative chambers were equalised by a notch inside the stanchion. This notch met the air seal near top-out which filled the negative chamber but didn't pressurise it higher than the positive.

    These early forks were plagued with air leaks from the negative chamber into the lower legs. Caused mostly by too much clearance between the air shaft and the black plastic seal-head. So shaft deflection could burp the seal and pressurise the lower legs.

    This is why people were sliding zip-ties down past fork seals.

    Rockshox released a new seal-head with bigger seal to counter this leakage. It worked and came in most 200H service kits. Vorsprung have identifying pictures here: https://vorsprungsuspension.com/page...allation-setup

    A very good and popular upgrade for these was the Vorsprung Luftkappe. This replacement piston does three things.
    1. It moves the piston seal down relative to the equalisation port to create a higher negative compression ratio. This reduces top-out forces to zero.
    2. It increases negative volume through a domed cap (which reduces positive volume as a side-effect) so the negative spring effect extends deeper into travel.
    3. It removes the need for a top-out bumper which further increases negative air volume.

    The net result of these changes was a straighter air-spring curve. The first half of the stroke became a lot more linear from top-out through the midstroke. Using higher air pressure but getting better small bump response and mid-stroke support.

    At this point in time the Debonair name was being used by Rockshox in their rear shocks (with high volume, dual layer, positive and negative air-cans) and also for the Lyrik and Yari (same chassis) which had longer stanchions and 10mm longer negative air chamber than the A1 Pike.

    Rockshox took this opportunity around 2018 to release their first Debonair upgrade.


    They replaced the, previously removable, air piston with a riveted on plastic moulding with air channels to allow negative air to flow into the shaft. Using that internal volume to increase negative air volume. The air seal position stayed in much the same location keeping the compression ratio and positive/negative balance pretty much the same (near zero at top-out).

    The big engineering change was the stanchion end-cap seal-head. It was now machined aluminium (more precise than moulded plastic) and featured a DU guide bushing to keep shaft/seal alignment and prevent leaks to negative. This allowed less seal crush which reduced friction.

    All round a good upgrade. Doesn't have the same volume increase or compression ratio as a Luftkappe but was a drop-in upgrade that people bought in huge volumes to solve their forks previous problems. Solid win for Rockshox.

    The big criticism of this Debonair was the forks wouldn't sit at top-out. Just the weight of the bike would sag it and Rockshox own sag indicator stanchions had their customers getting concerned they'd got less than they paid for.

    Roll on today with Debonair 3 (that's my name, not RS's).
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...aver-2020.html


    There are two physical changes to this air shaft over Debonair 2.
    1. Longer shaft foot.
    2. Higher end-cap seal-head.

    The longer shaft foot does exactly one thing. It makes the shaft longer to move the lower legs down. This fixes the customer concern that their zero point has eaten a few mm of travel.

    The higher placed end-cap seal-head is required to fit the longer shaft foot. Without that the longer shaft foot would hit the end-cap at bottom-out. Causing damage, shock and noise. In addition RS have taken more negative volume. Ostensibly to reduce positive pressure ramp up in the lowers during deep compression.

    The downside to the higher end-cap is a reduced negative chamber volume. Expect this to be ignored or glossed over in initial releases.

    The expected ride changes:
    1. The fork will sit higher on it's travel indicators solely because the lowers have been spaced down.
    2. The lower negative volume will make the fork firmer off the top and ride higher still.
    3. Softer mid stroke (less support) due to the reduced negative volume.
    4. Less progressive due to lower leg pressure build-up? That's going to be hard to isolate on ride tests.
    What a great explanation that is easy to understand. Thank you for that.

    From my perspective, I'll stick with my Debonair. I did remove the negative chamber bump stop and that combined with the addition of low friction Push seals (already has a great Avy cartridge) made the fork down right coil like. I mean it has no stiction, but it has better mid- travel support too.

    Don't care about the 5mm of fork sag, it doesn't matter to me and I still run the same 22% sag based off the full 160mm travel.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  14. #14
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    At 25.00 and an easy change back if I am not impressed I figure Iíll give it a try. I ordered one today but who knows when theyíll actually be available. I still think this may just be a ďfixĒ for people obsessed with looking at their fork topped out stationary but Iíll see what my own opinion is after trying it.

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    Seems like a down grade, hope they keep making the current version (debonair 2) and not just the new one.

    If not, maybe there is room in the market for an aluminum piston version of the debonair 2. Seems like there might be some opportunity for reducing friction a bit over the plastic piston?

  16. #16
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    My LBS suggested me to upsize my fork so the dead travel doesnt matter anymore. Lyrik loses 7-9mm of travel; Pike around 3-5mm.

    I took 170 Lyrik for my bronson. After dead travel, I get around 163mm.
    hodor.

  17. #17
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    given we ride with sag who cares if there is a few mm of travel lost when the bike is leaning against a wall or am I missing something?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    given we ride with sag who cares if there is a few mm of travel lost when the bike is leaning against a wall or am I missing something?
    You are probably correct. If you are 25% sagged when you initiate travel who cares where your starting point it from. People try to understand things in static terms because that is easier to understand but your starting travel and even your sag % is just a static number. The dynamic ride height is probably most important.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So Rockshox are at it again with air spring changes. Here's a recap.

    ...

    The expected ride changes:
    1. The fork will sit higher on it's travel indicators solely because the lowers have been spaced down.
    2. The lower negative volume will make the fork firmer off the top and ride higher still.
    3. Softer mid stroke (less support) due to the reduced negative volume.
    4. Less progressive due to lower leg pressure build-up? That's going to be hard to isolate on ride tests.



    I know it's still speculation at this point, but you don't sound excited about it.

    Sitting topped out few a few mm sagged doesn't sound like any kind of performance gain. If anything, it would make top out while riding more harsh, right?

    As far as the negative volume reduction, I'm curious what kind of % change this will be. Hard to get an accurate figure without a very accurate CAD model, since the negative volume isn't a simple shape.

    Equalizing the negative chamber at top out vs sag? It's hard to see a benefit from that either, besides removing the need to bounce the fork while adding air.

  20. #20
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    https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...onair-updates/

    "With previous generation air springs, there would have been a small but noticeable downwards spike in the spring curve where the air changes across the dimple"

    Not sure if this is a problem but decreasing negative chamber seems to be questionable.

    On a negative chamber where the pressure cannot be chosen, i also think it was designed about a specific travel (160) and weight. On heavier persons it might be too small. I got an calc sheet where you can see the optimum of the air spring curve close to a steel spring is at an specific psi and amount of token.

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    I ordered the nut and sealhead, but reading this has me doubting whether I should install it.

    I am thinking about how the new system works. The negative spring helps push the fork into its travel, and the two variables, pressure at equalization and volume affect how hard it pushes and the curve of that push. With the new air spring equalizing at a lower positive pressure, it will exert less force against the friction at the onset of movement, but will sit higher at equilibrium.

    Having a higher negative spring volume means a more linear spring curve for the negative spring, meaning it maintains higher pressure for longer in the stroke. Reducing the volume of the negative spring means that there is less help in moving the suspension once it gets going.

    Is it possible that having a high-pressure, high volume negative spring results in a funny overall spring curve? I would think that, in a ideal world, you would reduce friction to the point where you rely less on the negative spring to get things moving, which is basically how a coil shock works.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    I ordered the nut and sealhead, but reading this has me doubting whether I should install it.
    Why did you order it in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    Why did you order it in the first place?
    Seemed like a relatively inexpensive thing to try out, and I assumed newer = better.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by x-rated View Post
    https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...onair-updates/

    "With previous generation air springs, there would have been a small but noticeable downwards spike in the spring curve where the air changes across the dimple"

    Not sure if this is a problem but decreasing negative chamber seems to be questionable.

    On a negative chamber where the pressure cannot be chosen, i also think it was designed about a specific travel (160) and weight. On heavier persons it might be too small. I got an calc sheet where you can see the optimum of the air spring curve close to a steel spring is at an specific psi and amount of token.
    The two changes (less negative and bigger air pocket in the lower legs) make me think they had people struggling to get full travel.

    Both their changes will make the fork softer through mid to end stroke for the same sag.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The two changes (less negative and bigger air pocket in the lower legs) make me think they had people struggling to get full travel.

    Both their changes will make the fork softer through mid to end stroke for the same sag.
    Iím one who doesnít use full travel. Iíll get to 3/4 an inch or so most times. If I remove the one token I have then my travel seems to stay the same yet the ride is noticeably less smooth (like itís packing in the mid strike) so Iíve left the one token. So Iíll give this a go and see if itís better or worse for me. Didnít really have any complaints in current setup but if it does ride higher in steeps (always appreciated) without noticeable less sensitivity and a more linear stroke then maybe itís the right path for me.

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    How does all of this compare to Foxís air spring?

    I have the 36 on my hardtail and a Lyrik on my full-suspension, and the 36 feels like it sits a bit higher.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Iím one who doesnít use full travel. Iíll get to 3/4 an inch or so most times. If I remove the one token I have then my travel seems to stay the same yet the ride is noticeably less smooth (like itís packing in the mid strike) so Iíve left the one token. So Iíll give this a go and see if itís better or worse for me. Didnít really have any complaints in current setup but if it does ride higher in steeps (always appreciated) without noticeable less sensitivity and a more linear stroke then maybe itís the right path for me.
    This is the opposite of a coil.

    I feel like it's been developed for E-bikes. If "acoustic" bikes are suffering 5mm travel loss due to sag under self-weight then E-bikes would be losing double.

    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    How does all of this compare to Foxís air spring?

    I have the 36 on my hardtail and a Lyrik on my full-suspension, and the 36 feels like it sits a bit higher.
    I'm almost done collecting info for the F36 to compare it to the previous Lyrik Debonair. But I'm not sure when I'll get my hands on Debonair 3 to measure up.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm almost done collecting info for the F36 to compare it to the previous Lyrik Debonair. But I'm not sure when I'll get my hands on Debonair 3 to measure up.
    Nice, I would be interested to hear about your findings.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    Nice, I would be interested to hear about your findings.
    The plan is to create an online calculator so people can enter their fork, air pressure, volume tokens etc and spit out spring curves.

    But we'll see how big a mission that turns out to be and how long it takes us to actually get done.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    This is the opposite of a coil.

    I feel like it's been developed for E-bikes. If "acoustic" bikes are suffering 5mm travel loss due to sag under self-weight then E-bikes would be losing double.



    I'm almost done collecting info for the F36 to compare it to the previous Lyrik Debonair. But I'm not sure when I'll get my hands on Debonair 3 to measure up.
    Well guess Iíll find out. Cheap enough to try out anyway and debonair was an improvement over solo air so hopefully RS didnít screw it up and just improved on an improvement. Ideally Iíd have a luftkappe initial stroke (which Iím suspecting would require a false piston attached to the rod to have equal force on both sides) but somehow doing so without the sacrifice in the positive volume side so itís not as progressive. Yes I know the luftkappe also sits into its travel, but I donít quite think it felt as dead (been a while since I tested my friend pike with one). Well see, there is always gonna be a compromise somewhere with an air spring it seems.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    How does all of this compare to Foxís air spring?

    I have the 36 on my hardtail and a Lyrik on my full-suspension, and the 36 feels like it sits a bit higher.
    I have a Yari, Fox 34, and a DVO Diamond. The Fox and DVO both ride higher in its travel than the Yari. The Fox 34 does have some dead travel...but not nearly as much as the Yari. The DVO has none. The Yari riding a bit lower isn't some ride breaking deal...but it is noticeable.

    I also wanted to add that at full bottom out...the the Rockshox pretty much uses all the stanchion...while the Fox will have about 7mm exposed (right above the Kashima logo) and the DVO about 3mm.

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    Okay, so hereís a question - itís changing the equalization point that likely Ďfixesí the Debonair 2ís lack of complete top-out. They could have made the neg spring volume larger while moving the equalization point, which would have still allowed the fork to return to full top-out. In fact, with the thicker sealhead, they had even more real-estate than before for the negative spring, if they wished to make it bigger.

    Why wouldnít they have made the negative spring bigger than they did?

    Just thinking further, this supports the theory of their goal being to make it easier to use full travel.

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    So Iím now sitting here shaking my head in disbelief. So either the bikeradar article is wrong or RS is doing one really confusing change. In the bikeradar article they say the pistons now sits in the dimple at top out so you also no longer need to compress the fork to equalize the chambers. If this is true then we are back to pre pike solo air and might as well be using the old design with the schradder valve built into the piston that opens at top out. I thought the whole point of moving to the dimple was to allow the piston to sit below the dimple to allow an increased negative psi which combined with the less area under the piston will allow a closer to equal force on the piston causing it to be more sensitive and have a less top out sensation.

    I can see them moving the piston up closer to the dimple but if itís accurate in the article that it actually sits at the dimple then we have just gone full circle back to classic solo air.

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    Yes, I don't think that it sits at the dimple. It probably just sits closer to the dimple. Like you said, that would be full circle back to solo air.
    And some people are saying, that now negative chamber is smaller. I don't think this is necessarily the case. When you have them side by side, it certainly looks like it, but you have to take to the account, that the footnut is longer, so in the fork, piston will be offset higher and volume will stay the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    So Iím now sitting here shaking my head in disbelief. So either the bikeradar article is wrong or RS is doing one really confusing change. In the bikeradar article they say the pistons now sits in the dimple at top out so you also no longer need to compress the fork to equalize the chambers. If this is true then we are back to pre pike solo air and might as well be using the old design with the schradder valve built into the piston that opens at top out. I thought the whole point of moving to the dimple was to allow the piston to sit below the dimple to allow an increased negative psi which combined with the less area under the piston will allow a closer to equal force on the piston causing it to be more sensitive and have a less top out sensation.

    I can see them moving the piston up closer to the dimple but if itís accurate in the article that it actually sits at the dimple then we have just gone full circle back to classic solo air.
    I cant see how the piston should sit at the dimple when the bike is unloaded and the pressure is equalized.
    The negative chamber side of the piston is smaller than the postive side due to the attached air shaft, and so the same pressure on both sides can put a greater force on the positive side and will always push it down ever so little.

    The design of the Debonair3 seems a little bit overcomplex, maybe because they wanted it to be retrofitted on Debonair2. Otherwise they could have dumped that silly delrin piston with the connection to the inner of the shaft and just make a conventional shaft that is a little longer, so you can ride with a 185mm fork instead of 180mm to feel that it sits higher in travel ..

    Remembers me of my 2013 Fox 36 with a way too soft negative coil spring, had about 195mm travel.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    In the bikeradar article they say the pistons now sits in the dimple at top out so you also no longer need to compress the fork to equalize the chambers.
    That would be nonsense, basically it would have a strong preload at topout. They don't know what they're talking about.

    They made the air shaft about 10mm longer so the A2C is increased that much.
    The negative chamber reduction decreases that amount a tiny bit, and it makes the fork less divey in the first half of travel.
    The hollow seal head... I'm just surprised it wasn't used since the beginning. Otherwise the air chamber in the lowers is very progressive and makes it hard to bottom out even with little progression in the air chamber. I've never measured it but a compression ratio well over 10x seems plausible. This fix makes much easier to tune the end stroke with tokens. This is at least from my experience from my experiments with my formocchi frankenfork.

    The thing is, this is not an "upgrade" but a "fixgrade" and should come free with escuses for taking so long.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    Okay, so hereís a question - itís changing the equalization point that likely Ďfixesí the Debonair 2ís lack of complete top-out. They could have made the neg spring volume larger while moving the equalization point, which would have still allowed the fork to return to full top-out. In fact, with the thicker sealhead, they had even more real-estate than before for the negative spring, if they wished to make it bigger.

    Why wouldnít they have made the negative spring bigger than they did?

    Just thinking further, this supports the theory of their goal being to make it easier to use full travel.
    They haven't changed the equalisation point. Because they can't.

    All they did was make the shaft longer. Which pushes the lower legs lower and exposes more of the travel/sag indicators.

    See this picture:


    Normally the one on the left (debonair 2) has the end-cap slid down further and an air gap between the bumper and cap. It sits in that far that the cap lower edges line up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    How does all of this compare to Foxís air spring?

    I have the 36 on my hardtail and a Lyrik on my full-suspension, and the 36 feels like it sits a bit higher.
    36 evol na2 air spring is spot on.

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    If end compression would play such high role then why psi recommendation is nearly unchanged?

    I really would like to see a spring curve of the original DebonAir.

    Also keep in mind, a larger negative chamber also reduces spring rate starting around 50mm of travel quite a lot but in many cases this is not wanted. Especially on lower psi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s-master View Post
    Yes, I don't think that it sits at the dimple. It probably just sits closer to the dimple. Like you said, that would be full circle back to solo air.
    And some people are saying, that now negative chamber is smaller. I don't think this is necessarily the case. When you have them side by side, it certainly looks like it, but you have to take to the account, that the footnut is longer, so in the fork, piston will be offset higher and volume will stay the same.
    The end seal sits higher up in the leg which is why the foot nut has to be longer. The negative air spring is smaller.Rockshox Debonair 2021-p5pb18500168.jpg

  41. #41
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    Bravo Dougal
    When I first saw this announcement it felt like a step backwards in air spring tech. I like that my fox with vorsprung luftkappe has a pneumatic top out. It makes the fork buttery smooth in the transition of wheel on/off the ground. This zero preload at the loss of a couple mm of travel is a worthwhile tradeoff. Also the increase in mid stroke support and better overall spring curve is a huge plus.
    Seems like rockshox is just pandering to people that don't understand a superior spring setup.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Seems like rockshox is just pandering to people that don't understand a superior spring setup.
    It would be interesting to know what their pro athletes are running. Sadly, we will never know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Bravo Dougal
    When I first saw this announcement it felt like a step backwards in air spring tech. I like that my fox with vorsprung luftkappe has a pneumatic top out. It makes the fork buttery smooth in the transition of wheel on/off the ground. This zero preload at the loss of a couple mm of travel is a worthwhile tradeoff. Also the increase in mid stroke support and better overall spring curve is a huge plus.
    Seems like rockshox is just pandering to people that don't understand a superior spring setup.
    Yeah, the whole solo air design is already just appealing to the lowest common denominator. The old dual air spring design would allow you to get the best of both worlds when properly tuned, and it also eliminates the small dead spot in the travel where the piston passes over the dimple and the spring rate drops to near zero for a couple mm.

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    Its interesting to see judging without ever using it.

    As for the position of piston for compensation between chambers through dimple, its only 1cm difference. That may not have an huge effect. At 10mm travel the negative chamber doesnt have equal pressure as positive chamber, rather it has 30% less. At 20mm its already 63% less, 30mm = 99%. On old DebonAir the whole thing just shifts 10mm.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Bravo Dougal
    When I first saw this announcement it felt like a step backwards in air spring tech. I like that my fox with vorsprung luftkappe has a pneumatic top out. It makes the fork buttery smooth in the transition of wheel on/off the ground. This zero preload at the loss of a couple mm of travel is a worthwhile tradeoff. Also the increase in mid stroke support and better overall spring curve is a huge plus.
    Seems like rockshox is just pandering to people that don't understand a superior spring setup.
    I'm willing to bet that most people aren't into spring curves and dimples inside a fork. They just set their suspension up to where it feels good to them...and its more than "a couple mm"...more like 5 to 10mm. If your new 130mm air spring sits at the same height as your old 120mm...you would think that something is wrong. I mean if Rockshox noted a disclaimer of some kind on the new DB spring that the 5 to 10mm of dead travel is normal...then maybe they wouldn't have to pander to the masses.

    None of my forks from Fox or older Rockshox and Marzocchi had this behavior...at least not this much. At first I thought I installed the air spring wrong...which is kind of hard to do.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    None of my forks from Fox or older Rockshox and Marzocchi had this behavior...at least not this much. At first I thought I installed the air spring wrong...which is kind of hard to do.
    That is what I was getting at with my earlier question about the Fox air spring. My 36 with NA2 Evol returns to full height. Is its equalization point higher up and/or neg spring volume smaller than the 19/20 Debonair?

    I wouldnít say my 36 is any less sensitive than my Lyrik. If the 2021 Debonair is closer to what Fox has done, I think it should work out fine.

    Itís also curious that Vorsprung makes a Luftkappe for NA2 Evol but both for Debonair 19/20. This makes me suspect that the NA2 Evol in its stock configuration has smaller neg spring volume. Either that or Vorsprung just hasnít gotten around to/canít make a Luftkappe for the Debonair 19/20.

    That said, it sounds like Fox has taken the exact opposite approach to RS with their latest 36, increasing the size of the neg spring by making the stanchion longer on the air side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    That is what I was getting at with my earlier question about the Fox air spring. My 36 with NA2 Evol returns to full height. Is its equalization point higher up and/or neg spring volume smaller than the 19/20 Debonair?

    I wouldnít say my 36 is any less sensitive than my Lyrik. If the 2021 Debonair is closer to what Fox has done, I think it should work out fine.

    Itís also curious that Vorsprung makes a Luftkappe for NA2 Evol but both for Debonair 19/20. This makes me suspect that the NA2 Evol in its stock configuration has smaller neg spring volume. Either that or Vorsprung just hasnít gotten around to/canít make a Luftkappe for the Debonair 19/20.

    That said, it sounds like Fox has taken the exact opposite approach to RS with their latest 36, increasing the size of the neg spring by making the stanchion longer on the air side.
    Vorsprung cannot make a Luftkappe for the newer debonair air springs as the pistons are riveted onto the air shaft.

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    Will this change ride height under sag (with rider), or just free "sag"? I have the 2019/20 spring on the workbench to upgrade my 2018 lyric from 160mm to 170mm, but don't want to lose most of the change to sag...

    Thanks,

    Drew

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    Vorsprung cannot make a Luftkappe for the newer debonair air springs as the pistons are riveted onto the air shaft.
    They'd just need to supply the top part of the shaft with the cap. Vorsprung certainly have the capability to do that. But there are a whole heap of other considerations as to whether a product is viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strattoa View Post
    Will this change ride height under sag (with rider), or just free "sag"? I have the 2019/20 spring on the workbench to upgrade my 2018 lyric from 160mm to 170mm, but don't want to lose most of the change to sag...

    Thanks,

    Drew
    Yes. The fork will sit more than 10mm higher with the same pressure and volume setup as last year.
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    So thinking to myself again (trying not to hurt) there may be some potential to this. If we remember that suspension job is not only to take an impact but also to fill in holes then if the fork were sitting into their travel at static and to some extent staying ďsucked downĒ when lifted (which they do, itís minor but there). So if just using some generic numbers and say both forks you run a dynamic sag of 20% but one will only extend to 10% while the other will fully extend then than is an additional amount of droop that the front wheel can use to fill holes in the terrain which may have a smoother overall ride. So Iím doubting this thing is as firm as the original air spring (otherwise what the point) but if it sits between the original and the current then that might actually be a good place to be. Never really paid attention to it riding but the current first 5-10mm is rather ďdeadĒ so if they can keep it plush and active for traction without it becoming ďdeadĒ then that could be a win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    The end seal sits higher up in the leg which is why the foot nut has to be longer. The negative air spring is smaller.Click image for larger version. 

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    Couldn't you just buy a 10mm longer air spring and add a 10mm spacer under the top out bumper to push the seal head up closer to the equalization dimple? Would that enlarge the negative spring while taking advantage of the higher ride height.

    Rockshox Debonair 2021-deb.jpg

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    I'm willing to bet that most people aren't into spring curves and dimples inside a fork. They just set their suspension up to where it feels good to them...and its more than "a couple mm"...more like 5 to 10mm. If your new 130mm air spring sits at the same height as your old 120mm...you would think that something is wrong. I mean if Rockshox noted a disclaimer of some kind on the new DB spring that the 5 to 10mm of dead travel is normal...then maybe they wouldn't have to pander to the masses.

    None of my forks from Fox or older Rockshox and Marzocchi had this behavior...at least not this much. At first I thought I installed the air spring wrong...which is kind of hard to do.
    5mm of sag from bike weight is about perfect. It will top out on air and have zero preload. 10mm is more than you need for sure. Having a hard top out is a bad design.

    Maybe the "Fixed" a problem, but in my opinion more less negative volume is a bad thing. The larger leg volume is an upgrade. Basically they should have had longer air shafts to begin with, even with the old seal head, but it looks like there is not enough clearance to just use the bottom nut.

    My stock fox 36 160 had a hard top out. With the vorsprung luftkappe installed I "lost" 3-5mm of top out and the fork is better everywhere in it's travel.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccinpa View Post
    Couldn't you just buy a 10mm longer air spring and add a 10mm spacer under the top out bumper to push the seal head up closer to the equalization dimple? Would that enlarge the negative spring while taking advantage of the higher ride height.
    Sure could. But then you've got 10mm less travel. So only matters if that worries you.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    5mm of sag from bike weight is about perfect. It will top out on air and have zero preload. 10mm is more than you need for sure. Having a hard top out is a bad design.
    But a heavy E bike will have 10mm of sag from bike weight. So guess which market segment is heavily driving components right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    My stock fox 36 160 had a hard top out. With the vorsprung luftkappe installed I "lost" 3-5mm of top out and the fork is better everywhere in it's travel.
    Was that the first year NA2? They fixed that top-out shock later on. Looks like the bumper compressed too far so they put a collar around the top of the bumper to limit it's compression.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Was that the first year NA2? They fixed that top-out shock later on. Looks like the bumper compressed too far so they put a collar around the top of the bumper to limit it's compression.
    It's a 2019, so the newest air spring. By hard top out I meant a ridged stop on the rubber bumper. It was silent and smooth but had preload and no bike sag.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sure could. But then you've got 10mm less travel.
    No it wouldnt. It works, but the higher casting volume is lost.

    You could add a "old" +10mm longer air shaft in general. Matters only if you need true 180mm, right?
    But on a fully compressed fork, the negative chamber is only like 1bar so it has nearly no influence. So the +10mm ride heigtht is only changed on the beginning and is decreasing further into the travel.

    It would be interesting if sag is changed on the new air shaft.

  56. #56
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    Does the Sektor and Revelation use Debonair 2?

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    Revelation uses same air spring as pike and sektor uses different air spring. It doesn't have equalisation dimple in the stanchion but it equalises at topout via valve in the piston. They still call it debonair, because they enlarged the negative chamber.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by x-rated View Post
    No it wouldnt. It works, but the higher casting volume is lost.

    You could add a "old" +10mm longer air shaft in general. Matters only if you need true 180mm, right?
    But on a fully compressed fork, the negative chamber is only like 1bar so it has nearly no influence. So the +10mm ride heigtht is only changed on the beginning and is decreasing further into the travel.

    It would be interesting if sag is changed on the new air shaft.
    I misread your one the last time. Using a longer shaft and spacer under means you might not get the seal to the equalisation dimple.

    The first pike/lyrik shafts and debonair 2 shafts are the same length. But the Pike A2 got weird and I haven't checked the dimple position in that stanchion. Here's a pic of the Pike A2 original shaft next to the Luftkappe (with A2 adapter) and an A2 debonair shaft:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bjn_SGIhyHj/

    When Debonair 2 hit the A1/A2 and B1 pike (in 27" format) used the exact same shafts:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bki8XIfBR00/

    I unfortunately don't have a CAD model or photo of the original Pike or Lyrik shaft next to it's debonair 2 replacement. I've got CAD models of the originals but no Debonair 2 shafts in stock right now and no forks with them in the queue (because I pushed them all through before we hit lockdown).
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  59. #59
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    So I just did a 50hr service on my 2019 yari 170mm debonair and my debonair shaft has no end nut at all like they show in all these photos. What's up with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by B52U View Post
    So I just did a 50hr service on my 2019 yari 170mm debonair and my debonair shaft has no end nut at all like they show in all these photos. What's up with that?
    definitely not a 2019. 2019 would also have the sag indicator on the other leg. check your fork serial number but that's an older yari.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    definitely not a 2019. 2019 would also have the sag indicator on the other leg. check your fork serial number but that's an older yari.
    Ah hah! That must be it. The bottom of that air spring where the retaining ring is was black, not red as well. Must have been a 2018. Thanks! Guess if I upgrade I will need the whole $42 spring assembly. That's helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I misread your one the last time. Using a longer shaft and spacer under means you might not get the seal to the equalisation dimple.
    If its too long yes, but 1cm or sorts about should be fine a guess. In the end this may need some tampering to get the right max. distance.

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    These are my own design and cnc machined just before debonair was released.. I could've made thousands in couple weeks.. Well I made about 30 and like 15 of them are in use still.

    Oh, obviously they needed a plug in the low end of the shaft..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rockshox Debonair 2021-img_20200413_025950.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by x-rated View Post
    If its too long yes, but 1cm or sorts about should be fine a guess. In the end this may need some tampering to get the right max. distance.
    You will be better off without a spacer, actually if its not a 180mm then you'll be better without the bumber too, its just a waste of negative spring space. Pneumatic topout is fine.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52U View Post
    So I just did a 50hr service on my 2019 yari 170mm debonair and my debonair shaft has no end nut at all like they show in all these photos. What's up with that?
    The newer Yaris have "DebonAir" on the upper part of the air side of the stanchion. Yours is probably an A1 model.

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    I think Rockshox had to make Lyrik and Pike a little worse before they release the new 37/38/38.99 or whatever fork that is.. So that people will compare it to a lyrik and say ooh it feels so supportive. Just like Lyrik did compared to Pike when it was released with 10mm longer negative chamber.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    The newer Yaris have "DebonAir" on the upper part of the air side of the stanchion. Yours is probably an A1 model.
    I looked up the serial at https://trailhead.rockshox.com/en/search/

    Looks to be the B1 model.

  68. #68
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    I'm not getting the "reduced negative chamber" thing... they simply moved the whole piston assembly up so as the piston sits at the dimple at top-out. They reduced the POSITIVE chamber, not the negative chamber! Most articles discussing it say the same thing. I think the only downsides to this are:
    1. If you've over-forked your bike, having 3-5mm pulldown isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to handling; new design may make it too tall now.
    2. If you already don't run volume spacers and don't reach full travel - this will be even worse now.

    Comments?

    Have FUN!

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    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    I'm not getting the "reduced negative chamber" thing... they simply moved the whole piston assembly up so as the piston sits at the dimple at top-out. They reduced the POSITIVE chamber, not the negative chamber! Most articles discussing it say the same thing. I think the only downsides to this are:
    1. If you've over-forked your bike, having 3-5mm pulldown isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to handling; new design may make it too tall now.
    2. If you already don't run volume spacers and don't reach full travel - this will be even worse now.

    Comments?

    Have FUN!

    G
    Look at the side by side photos. The Debonair 2 sealhead is recessed above the seal. That negative spring volume is lost with Debonair 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    I'm not getting the "reduced negative chamber" thing... they simply moved the whole piston assembly up so as the piston sits at the dimple at top-out. They reduced the POSITIVE chamber, not the negative chamber! Most articles discussing it say the same thing. I think the only downsides to this are:
    1. If you've over-forked your bike, having 3-5mm pulldown isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to handling; new design may make it too tall now.
    2. If you already don't run volume spacers and don't reach full travel - this will be even worse now.

    Comments?

    Have FUN!

    G
    The amount of air in the negative chamber has decreased. Previously the fork would equalise, then extend another 5-10mm, raising the neg pressure until the forces balance. This pneumatic top out was great for compliance but made an inconsistent total fork length. Now having a hard stop at the equalisation point means you have The same volume at top out but less neg pressure, as it doesnít extend that extra bit
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    I'm trying to figure out what would be my best strategy here. I have a new MY2019/2020 Lyrik in 160mm. My target travel is ~160mm. Getting extra support is good because my (older) Lyrik tends to ride too low in its travel on steeper stuff. I don't want it to dive, but I want to keep it plush on flatter parts.

    Would I be better off getting the parts to update it to a 2021 Debonair 3 equivalent or a get 170mm Debonair 2 spring and try to figure out a 10mm spacer somehow?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel242 View Post
    I'm trying to figure out what would be my best strategy here. I have a new MY2019/2020 Lyrik in 160mm. My target travel is ~160mm. Getting extra support is good because my (older) Lyrik tends to ride too low in its travel on steeper stuff. I don't want it to dive, but I want to keep it plush on flatter parts.

    Would I be better off getting the parts to update it to a 2021 Debonair 3 equivalent or a get 170mm Debonair 2 spring and try to figure out a 10mm spacer somehow?
    Get Debonair 2 at 170mm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel242 View Post
    I'm trying to figure out what would be my best strategy here. I have a new MY2019/2020 Lyrik in 160mm. My target travel is ~160mm. Getting extra support is good because my (older) Lyrik tends to ride too low in its travel on steeper stuff. I don't want it to dive, but I want to keep it plush on flatter parts.

    Would I be better off getting the parts to update it to a 2021 Debonair 3 equivalent or a get 170mm Debonair 2 spring and try to figure out a 10mm spacer somehow?
    Itís funny, I donít find that my 2019 Lyrik dives. I am about 10 psi above what RS recommends for my weight, though. I ended up taking out a token since it was hard to use full travel at the air pressure that gave me the ride height I wanted.

    So you could try running more air, or move your bars higher.

  74. #74
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    I donít see why you couldnít just put this new foot not on with the old seal head?

    The amount the shaft is going to travel is no different, just longer past the part that was originally there?

    it doesnít hit the nut with the old design so putting this new nut on the important distance should stay the same and just push the lower 10mm away from the crown?

    i might be wrong but Iím going to try it before I put the new seal head in

  75. #75
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    at full bottom out sealhead will collide with nut, the result might look like this:

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    Good conversation all. This has me researching the effects of the 2019 air spring on my 2018 Lyrik now and debating the 2021 upgrade.

    I'm currently running at 160mm with no tokens, and was planning to move to 170mm with the 2019 spring, but now I'm reading that may make it more progressive (less positive air space). Since I have no more tokens to remove, would I be better off with the 2021 spring?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    The amount of air in the negative chamber has decreased.
    Okay but so has the amount in the positive chamber so... if the ratio is still the same then you wouldn't notice anything other than a taller fork (and potentially more ramp up at end stroke), correct?

    Thanks,

    G
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    Okay but so has the amount in the positive chamber so... if the ratio is still the same then you wouldn't notice anything other than a taller fork (and potentially more ramp up at end stroke), correct?

    Thanks,

    G
    No the amount of air in the positive chamber is the same. The 2 designs still equalise and seal off at the same point so there isnít any change to the positive side.

    With the old system, because the fork kept extending after top out not only did the neg pressure increase but positive pressure decreased. Now we have lower neg pressure and higher pos pressure at top out. Hence sitting higher in the stroke
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    So is the Debonair3 recommended or is it better to stay at Debonair2 if everything works?
    Or if i want 160mm, buying a 170mm Deb2 and adding a 10mm Spacer under the bumper (for more neg. Spring)?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    No the amount of air in the positive chamber is the same. The 2 designs still equalise and seal off at the same point so there isnít any change to the positive side.

    With the old system, because the fork kept extending after top out not only did the neg pressure increase but positive pressure decreased. Now we have lower neg pressure and higher pos pressure at top out. Hence sitting higher in the stroke
    I understand the "sitting higher in the stroke" thing because of the equalization at top out but moving the piston up 10mm in the stanchion reduces the volume of air on top of the piston (positive air). I see the recession on the old sealhead that D(C) mentions and that resultant loss of negative air volume but that looks to be about 10mm so... again, the positive and negative chambers appear to be reduced by 10mm, no? RS is also saying that there WOULD be increased ramp up BUT since the new sealhead is hollow, the volume in the lowers increases and doesn't have as much of an effect on bottom out force (who knew that was such a big thing?!). I'm not trying to be a pain, Johnny, just trying to fully understand this from an engineering standpoint.

    Cheers,

    G
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccinpa View Post
    Couldn't you just buy a 10mm longer air spring and add a 10mm spacer under the top out bumper to push the seal head up closer to the equalization dimple? Would that enlarge the negative spring while taking advantage of the higher ride height.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I like the comparison pics, thanks for posting! As for your question, you could but the new sealhead is hollow so as to have less of a ramp up at bottom out from the air in the lowers (volume is now larger) vs the increased ramp up you would experience because of the smaller positive chamber volume of the higher piston in the new design. Shorter travel forks you sure could as you can just remove a volume spacer to make up for it; just need a 10mm longer shaft like you state.

    Have FUN!

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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    I understand the "sitting higher in the stroke" thing because of the equalization at top out but moving the piston up 10mm in the stanchion reduces the volume of air on top of the piston (positive air). I see the recession on the old sealhead that D(C) mentions and that resultant loss of negative air volume but that looks to be about 10mm so... again, the positive and negative chambers appear to be reduced by 10mm, no? RS is also saying that there WOULD be increased ramp up BUT since the new sealhead is hollow, the volume in the lowers increases and doesn't have as much of an effect on bottom out force (who knew that was such a big thing?!). I'm not trying to be a pain, Johnny, just trying to fully understand this from an engineering standpoint.

    Cheers,

    G
    Sorry, yes you would experience a higher spring force at the end of the stroke, as well as a higher force at the top. Its the amount of air in the positive chamber that hasn't changed
    This is a picture of the positive chamber portion of the air spring curve (so you can see just the contribution from the positive side), blue lines are the start and finish of a 160mm Debonair 2, and red is debonair 3. You basically just shifted the start and finish along 10mm.
    Rockshox Debonair 2021-2020-04-14_0738.png
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  83. #83
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    So if the piston is moved up 10mm and there is roughly 10mm less sag, does the positive air volume really change that much? Seams minimal.
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    Does anyone know when the 2021 forks are shipping?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    So if the piston is moved up 10mm and there is roughly 10mm less sag, does the positive air volume really change that much? Seams minimal.
    Positive chamber would reduce by about 2/3'rds of a token so... yeah, not too noticeable. Sag won't be 10mm higher tho... you simply get back the "pull down" the negative gradient was causing before which will only be 3-5mm depending on stroke length. I really don't think this is going to be such a big deal except for maybe the lower stroke lengths (140, 150, maybe 160) where you want to make sure you're getting/using full stroke. Anyone over-forking their bikes... not so much as you are already riding high in the travel for what your frame was designed for unless you really want to rake her out.

    Have FUN!

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Sorry, yes you would experience a higher spring force at the end of the stroke, as well as a higher force at the top. Its the amount of air in the positive chamber that hasn't changed
    This is a picture of the positive chamber portion of the air spring curve (so you can see just the contribution from the positive side), blue lines are the start and finish of a 160mm Debonair 2, and red is debonair 3. You basically just shifted the start and finish along 10mm.
    Hi Johnny
    Thanks for a graph.

    It seems RS are claiming that apart from the 10mm higher ride height, the spring would make better use of the last half of the travel as well. They claim the hollowed out sealhead is to accomplish this.. But that aside, I cant see how raising the equalizing point and decreasing the negative spring is going to help me access the last inch of travel? In fact it will do the opposite?

    My experience of my 2019 150mm Pike (It sits at 142mm) For me to set the middle part of the suspension up supportive the last third is very hard to access (the last inch nearly impossible) when I set sag in attack mode at 15-20%.

    I picked up(read) that Fox's 38 has a air sleeve inside the leg to reduce the air piston size and that It actually uses a FOX34 airpiston? Apparently to reduce friction, but I suspect its because of the relation between the air volume and the area of the seal-head during compression which draws the compression curve out a making the 2nd half of the travel (when the negative spring has no more effect) more accessible.

    What bottomless tokens seem to do is cause the progression curve to kick up 2/3 into the travel, but making the last bit of travel almost unattainable which is why a tunable volume spacer is very useful.
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  87. #87
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    Generic question on the debonair spring history.

    What made v2 better than the early first version, was it a friction reduction and increase in negative air capacity?

    Also a change from delrin to aluminum for the piston?

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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52U View Post
    Generic question on the debonair spring history.

    What made v2 better than the early first version, was it a friction reduction and increase in negative air capacity?

    Also a change from delrin to aluminum for the piston?
    Increase in negative air capacity (better if you like it), and a better sealhead made from aluminum.
    The piston changed from aluminum to delrin, BTW. Not better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosbefok View Post
    Hi Johnny
    Thanks for a graph.

    It seems RS are claiming that apart from the 10mm higher ride height, the spring would make better use of the last half of the travel as well. They claim the hollowed out sealhead is to accomplish this.. But that aside, I cant see how raising the equalizing point and decreasing the negative spring is going to help me access the last inch of travel? In fact it will do the opposite?

    My experience of my 2019 150mm Pike (It sits at 142mm) For me to set the middle part of the suspension up supportive the last third is very hard to access (the last inch nearly impossible) when I set sag in attack mode at 15-20%.

    I picked up(read) that Fox's 38 has a air sleeve inside the leg to reduce the air piston size and that It actually uses a FOX34 airpiston? Apparently to reduce friction, but I suspect its because of the relation between the air volume and the area of the seal-head during compression which draws the compression curve out a making the 2nd half of the travel (when the negative spring has no more effect) more accessible.

    What bottomless tokens seem to do is cause the progression curve to kick up 2/3 into the travel, but making the last bit of travel almost unattainable which is why a tunable volume spacer is very useful.
    The size of the positive air chamber is very important in relation to travel, riders weight and preferences. So a tunability like Manitou has would be quite nice.

    I had to hacksaw the airchamber of my old 2013 Fox36, because it was too small, and now I had to drill a hole into the airshaft of my Lyrik, for the same reason.
    It is always easier to reduce the size of an airchamber than maikng it bigger, maybe some day the people at RS find that out too.
    I hope Fox made the 38īs big enough with that small 34 air chamber, but I will never know as I have no need for a 38 fork.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosbefok View Post
    It seems RS are claiming that apart from the 10mm higher ride height, the spring would make better use of the last half of the travel as well. They claim the hollowed out sealhead is to accomplish this.. But that aside, I cant see how raising the equalizing point and decreasing the negative spring is going to help me access the last inch of travel? In fact it will do the opposite?

    My experience of my 2019 150mm Pike (It sits at 142mm) For me to set the middle part of the suspension up supportive the last third is very hard to access (the last inch nearly impossible) when I set sag in attack mode at 15-20%.
    The decrease in negative volume has no effect on the end of travel; the hollowed seal head has a great impact on that. The relocation of the equalization point has a minor effect, and that could be countered by decreasing air pressure.
    It sounds like in your case the new debonair would bring only advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosbefok View Post
    I picked up(read) that Fox's 38 has a air sleeve inside the leg to reduce the air piston size and that It actually uses a FOX34 airpiston? Apparently to reduce friction, but I suspect its because of the relation between the air volume and the area of the seal-head during compression which draws the compression curve out a making the 2nd half of the travel (when the negative spring has no more effect) more accessible.
    That relation only affects the amount the piston extends after the +/- chambers are equalized. Both spring curves are a result of the chamber lenght, not diameter.

  91. #91
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    How does one get the foot nut on/off the rod with out damaging the shaft?

    Like, is it thread-locked on? Or, is it pretty loose.


    Any link on a "how to"?

    I'm due for a lowers service on my 2020 Lyric and am tempted to try the new seal head. I mean for $25, I think its worth a shot.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    How does one get the foot nut on/off the rod with out damaging the shaft?

    Like, is it thread-locked on? Or, is it pretty loose.


    Any link on a "how to"?

    I'm due for a lowers service on my 2020 Lyric and am tempted to try the new seal head. I mean for $25, I think its worth a shot.
    10mm shaft clamp. Vosprung ones are a good price but hidden in the luftkappe drop-down menu: https://vorsprungsuspension.com/coll...16503834542114
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    How does one get the foot nut on/off the rod with out damaging the shaft?

    Like, is it thread-locked on? Or, is it pretty loose.


    Any link on a "how to"?

    I'm due for a lowers service on my 2020 Lyric and am tempted to try the new seal head. I mean for $25, I think its worth a shot.
    Thereís an 8 mm hex fitting at the top of the piston on the 19/20 Debonair shaft. So the tools needed are an 8 mm hex wrench and an adjustable wrench for the nut. No need for shaft clamps.

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  95. #95
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    Thanks guys. Appreciate it.


    As long as we'er at it, I presume this would work for my 2020 Lyric Ultimate 275, 150mm ?

    https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pro...lation-a1-2018

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Thanks guys. Appreciate it.


    As long as we'er at it, I presume this would work for my 2020 Lyric Ultimate 275, 150mm ?

    https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pro...lation-a1-2018

    https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/pro...k-yari-a1-2016

    PN: 00.4020.572.003

    source: https://trailhead.rockshox.com/en/up...3/150/DEBONAIR

    Or check the fork serial number on the RS trailhead website to be 100% sure.

    https://trailhead.rockshox.com/en/search/

  97. #97
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    Perhaps a repetitive question:
    I have a 2019 Lyric with the V2 air spring. Do I need the full air spring assembly to upgrade to V3 or just the seal head + foot nut upgrade kit?

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonp22 View Post
    Perhaps a repetitive question:
    I have a 2019 Lyric with the V2 air spring. Do I need the full air spring assembly to upgrade to V3 or just the seal head + foot nut upgrade kit?
    If your air spring has the red sealhead (it should if your fork is a 2019), then you just need the sealhead and nut. Otherwise you need the full air spring.

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    Thanks D(C). For that $25 or so price of entry, I figure I'll give it a shot since I'm about to service my air spring soon anyway. Currently the fork feels divey to me so I'm interested to see if this upgrade improves that aspect.

  100. #100
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    I removed the negative bump stop on my '19 Debonair to increase negative volume and added Push fork seals to go along with my Avy cartridge and my modified Yari is amazing honestly. Took some dialing in, and requires 100 psi (180# rider). It uses up a solid 10mm of travel just sitting there, however I set sag as if it was showing the full 160mm travel.
    It's positively coil like sensitive now, really good midrange support, and very controlled.
    Won't be changing a thing at this time.


    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I removed the negative bump stop on my '19 Debonair to increase negative volume and added Push fork seals to go along with my Avy cartridge and my modified Yari is amazing honestly. Took some dialing in, and requires 100 psi (180# rider). It uses up a solid 10mm of travel just sitting there, however I set sag as if it was showing the full 160mm travel.
    It's positively coil like sensitive now, really good midrange support, and very controlled.
    Won't be changing a thing at this time.
    I installed my own air piston for the first time with the 2019 sealhead and also without the topout bumber, damn I'd forgotten how awesome it makes the fork. Its like there is no starting friction for movement in the first 30% of travel, yet it is still supportive. Also measured and the 170mm my19 debonair shaft is actually 180mm from the sealhead to the nut, so there could be extra room to fit the my21 foot nut without the sealhead.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukis View Post
    I installed my own air piston for the first time with the 2019 sealhead and also without the topout bumber, damn I'd forgotten how awesome it makes the fork. Its like there is no starting friction for movement in the first 30% of travel, yet it is still supportive. Also measured and the 170mm my19 debonair shaft is actually 180mm from the sealhead to the nut, so there could be extra room to fit the my21 foot nut without the sealhead.
    You guys arenít having problems with top out clunk after removing the bumper?

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    You guys arenít having problems with top out clunk after removing the bumper?
    With current debonair that is extremely unlikely as it already tops out pneumatically (hence the ďsucked downĒ comments). The new debonair would likely have issues.

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    Welp, I pulled the trigger on a 2.1 rc2 damper and this new C1 spring for my 2018 yari that had the motion control damper and original debonair spring.

    I hope it makes the fork amaze-balls!

    Would it be worth going to maxima oil as well?

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52U View Post
    Welp, I pulled the trigger on a 2.1 rc2 damper and this new C1 spring for my 2018 yari that had the motion control damper and original debonair spring.

    I hope it makes the fork amaze-balls!

    Would it be worth going to maxima oil as well?
    Your 2.1 rc2 already has the maxima oil. The debonair was a big improvement over the original air springs, hopefully this update improves on that even more.

  106. #106
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    I just got done putting the updated Rockshox Debonair air spring into my Yari and hope to get an actual ride on it tomorrow... I have also put in a Charger 2.1 RC2 so it's basically already a Lyrik. Since this Coronavirus thing broke out, I haven't been riding but I'm itching to get out on a secluded, chill ride now that I've tossed this in.

    I did a quick lap around the neighborhood and the midstroke support is immediately noticeable, and the fork rides higher in the travel. It definitely reminds me of the feel that the MegNeg gave me when I put it on my Super Deluxe and I am hoping it provides the same sort of feel. I'll report back after I get done riding it.

    When pulliing on the fork, I've found that it doesn't extend anymore because the new air spring is forcing the fork to use all 160mm as intended. With my old air spring, I noticed that it was already sucked down closer to the 10mm sag marking on the fork.

    Rockshox Debonair 2021-2920033d-f73b-4929-8939-2bf34460e7c4.jpg

  107. #107
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    I've got three Lyriks running 2019/2020 Debonair2 springs.

    - 2x 170mm 2020 Ultimates on his'n'hers e-bikes. I find they ride a little low.
    - 1x 160mm 2018 RCT3 (upgraded) on my enduro bike (that I race). I run this with "supportive" pressures and don't get full travel and it is better on rocky vs sloppy.

    The scenarios I'm starting with seem to be the design targets for Debonair3 (ebikes and compromised support/full travel) that are getting discussed on this thread.

    It won't be a lot of expenditure for a lot of experimentation to just go out and get a sealhead and footnut kit.
    Last edited by petercarm; 04-19-2020 at 08:26 PM.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJJ205 View Post
    I just got done putting the updated Rockshox Debonair air spring into my Yari and hope to get an actual ride on it tomorrow... I have also put in a Charger 2.1 RC2 so it's basically already a Lyrik. Since this Coronavirus thing broke out, I haven't been riding but I'm itching to get out on a secluded, chill ride now that I've tossed this in.

    I did a quick lap around the neighborhood and the midstroke support is immediately noticeable, and the fork rides higher in the travel. It definitely reminds me of the feel that the MegNeg gave me when I put it on my Super Deluxe and I am hoping it provides the same sort of feel. I'll report back after I get done riding it.

    When pulliing on the fork, I've found that it doesn't extend anymore because the new air spring is forcing the fork to use all 160mm as intended. With my old air spring, I noticed that it was already sucked down closer to the 10mm sag marking on the fork.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Any noticeable difference in initial sensitivity or did that remain unchanged?

  109. #109
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    Are there 3 versions of Debonair? I know there was Solo Air then Debonair and I now the revised Debonair 2021 with the new seal and nut. Did I miss one because I see people referring to the 2021 version as Debonair 3?

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    2018 debonair = soloair shaft and piston with slight optimization of the topout bumber and sealhead to get little more negative volume. 2019 debonair = totally new shaft and piston and sealhead. 2021 debonair = new sealhead and footnut for the 2019 shaft.

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinimon View Post
    Are there 3 versions of Debonair? I know there was Solo Air then Debonair and I now the revised Debonair 2021 with the new seal and nut. Did I miss one because I see people referring to the 2021 version as Debonair 3?
    Yes, I have the first version in my 2018 yari at the moment. It has no foot nut on the shaft and has all black piston parts. It also has about 5mm of sag into travel like the v2.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    I've got three Lyriks running 2019/2020 Debonair2 springs.

    - 2x 170mm 2020 Ultimates on his'n'hers e-bikes. I find they ride a little low.
    - 1x 160mm 2018 RCT3 (upgraded) on my enduro bike (that I race). I run this with "supportive" pressures and don't get full travel and it is better on rocky vs sloppy.

    The scenarios I'm starting with seem to be the design targets for Debonair3 (ebikes and compromised support/full travel) that are getting discussed on this thread.

    It won't be a lot of expenditure for a lot of experimentation to just go out and get a sealhead and footnut kit.
    Hey. What you typed originally seems to make a lot of sense, get the 180mm debonair 3 and use the footnut make your enduro bike 170mm, other e-bike 170mm with the longer footnut and second e-bike 180mm debonair2.

  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukis View Post
    2018 debonair = soloair shaft and piston with slight optimization of the topout bumber and sealhead to get little more negative volume. 2019 debonair = totally new shaft and piston and sealhead. 2021 debonair = new sealhead and footnut for the 2019 shaft.
    Ahhhh! I didn't know about the solo air upgrade option. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by B52U View Post
    Yes, I have the first version in my 2018 yari at the moment. It has no foot nut on the shaft and has all black piston parts. It also has about 5mm of sag into travel like the v2.
    Thanks. Makes sense now after Jukis explained it.

  114. #114
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    I just spent the last hour reading this thread when I should be working... Lots of excellent contributions and now I have a question.

    I have a 2017 Pike RC, 150mm solo air. I don't have any complaints about how the fork behaves but I'm about to do the 1 year service on it and had ordered a 160mm solo air spring to go into it, which arrived today. Is it worth my while to send that one back and get the 2021 Debonair upgrade or the 2019 one? Or something else?

    Bike is a 2017 Devinci Troy, and came with the 150mm version, so it sitting a bit into the travel at rest with a 160mm shaft wouldnt be too much of an issue.

  115. #115
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    I would send that '19 one back and get the '21 air spring. Otherwise I'd guess you'd be installing the 19 and later this summer the '21. But both should be a big improvement.
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Ron Hoover View Post
    I just spent the last hour reading this thread when I should be working... Lots of excellent contributions and now I have a question.

    I have a 2017 Pike RC, 150mm solo air. I don't have any complaints about how the fork behaves but I'm about to do the 1 year service on it and had ordered a 160mm solo air spring to go into it, which arrived today. Is it worth my while to send that one back and get the 2021 Debonair upgrade or the 2019 one? Or something else?

    Bike is a 2017 Devinci Troy, and came with the 150mm version, so it sitting a bit into the travel at rest with a 160mm shaft wouldnt be too much of an issue.
    Depends on when they changed from the A1/A2 to the B1/B2 version of the Pike because the equalization dimple position actually changed (unlike on the Lyrik/Yari) on the Pikes! Personally I would go with the '19 version Debonaire for that reason alone and to get the extra negative chamber volume for a smoother ride over small chatter. Overforking has less of an issue with air pressure gradient pull-back too as you stay closer to the geometry the bike was designed for.

    My 2 cents,

    G MAN
    Last edited by Gman086; 04-22-2020 at 09:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    Depends on when they changed from the A1 to the B1 version of the Pike because the equalization dimple position actually changed (unlike on the Lyrik/Yari) on the Pikes! Personally I would go with the '19 version Debonaire for that reason alone and to get the extra negative chamber volume for a smoother ride over small chatter. Overforking has less of an issue with air pressure gradient pull-back too as you stay closer to the geometry the bike was designed for.

    My 2 cents,

    G MAN
    Hi g man, Does that mean the 2019 pikes shouldnít have the issue of resting a few mil into their travel ? Just prior models and lyrics etc that will need the new upgrade


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    Depends on when they changed from the A1 to the B1 version of the Pike because the equalization dimple position actually changed (unlike on the Lyrik/Yari) on the Pikes! Personally I would go with the '19 version Debonaire for that reason alone and to get the extra negative chamber volume for a smoother ride over small chatter. Overforking has less of an issue with air pressure gradient pull-back too as you stay closer to the geometry the bike was designed for.

    My 2 cents,

    G MAN
    Thanks for your response! Mine's an A2 but they spec all the same service kits and stuff as for the A1. I hedged my bets and ordered the 19 version of the Debonair air shaft but also ordered the 21 seal head and foot nut. Just going to send the Solo Air shaft back.

    Now, do I wait until the new shaft arrives to do the 1 year service, which is well overdue or do it now with the knowledge that I'll have to take it apart again in a couple of weeks? lol We're still in snow season but that's coming to a close and with the ludicrous amount of snow we got this winter, dirt season won't be starting until mid-May at best so I will probably hold off until the parts come.

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    Installed the upgrade on my Yari which already had the updated Debonair from last year. First ride tonight for a bit over 2hrs. I am sold so far for the single fact that the top end feels more put together. No more dead almost sloppy feeling that existed prior. Obviously will need more seat time to get a full run down but so far so good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Any noticeable difference in initial sensitivity or did that remain unchanged?
    If you mean small bump sensitivity, I feel like the fork is a lot smoother over the small chop, but that also could be related to fresh oil for all I know. All I know is that the fork feels a lot more predictable and planted, in general. So far, I'm completely happy with it, but only time will tell if that opinion changes. It definitely improved the feel of things that made me uncomfortable before, especially when the trail gets steep.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecarey212 View Post
    Hi g man, Does that mean the 2019 pikes shouldnít have the issue of resting a few mil into their travel ? Just prior models and lyrics etc that will need the new upgrade
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No, with the older 2014-2017 A1/A2 Pike/Revelation the piston was already sitting at the transfer port and didn't suck down travel. In fact if you did the C1 upgrade, you would have to compress the bottom out bumper to actually equalize the chambers! The B1/B2 Pike/Revelations 2018-2020 have the same port location as the Lyrik/Yaris and all of those could potentially benefit... that is if you want a taller ride height; YMMV.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    No, with the older 2014-2017 A1/A2 Pike/Revelation the piston was already sitting at the transfer port and didn't suck down travel. In fact if you did the C1 upgrade, you would have to compress the bottom out bumper to actually equalize the chambers! The B1/B2 Pike/Revelations 2018-2020 have the same port location as the Lyrik/Yaris and all of those could potentially benefit... that is if you want a taller ride height; YMMV.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    Ahhh. Right I see thanks for the response mate


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    Quote Originally Posted by PJJ205 View Post
    If you mean small bump sensitivity, I feel like the fork is a lot smoother over the small chop, but that also could be related to fresh oil for all I know. All I know is that the fork feels a lot more predictable and planted, in general. So far, I'm completely happy with it, but only time will tell if that opinion changes. It definitely improved the feel of things that made me uncomfortable before, especially when the trail gets steep.


    A lower leg service with fresh grease and oil can have a very big impact on the feel of things your are reporting.

    Unless you did the new Debonair on a freshly serviced fork, you can't really draw any conclusions on the feel.

  124. #124
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    Have you ever compared sag, new vs. old Debonair?
    I think they should differ a lot.
    New Debonair 160mm = old DebonAir 170mm because 1st 10mm are dead.
    Probably old spring has more progression too.
    Why dont they show us spring curves?

  125. #125
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    This guy mimes a spring curve for you. https://youtu.be/WWGFw5_TkKU
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    Really need to know how the fork behaves in the last third, there are some occasions where you dont want higher travel. Think of bikes with boosted travel on the front (too low HTA and too high BB height).

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    It behaves the same, you just don't have 10mm of unsupported sag. Makes for a more consistent feel.

    Sag is still set the same way unless you prefer to change it. Which you might or maybe you won't. That's up to the end user.

    Heck, they might even consider dropping a few psi, it's up to them, go crazy! The world is your oyster and this air spring is your shucker! Get shucked!
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    If you change 1 parameter there is also at least 1 other which changes too.

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    That's funny!!

    It's an upgrade that the Engineers at Rockshox have developed, I don't think they'd promote something that wasn't an improvement. I've talked to an independent suspension expert, his "opinion" was that Rockshox might've had had too much negative air pressure and they're just correcting it.

    I know very little about suspension compared to the expert/engineer, I trust their analysis...this is an upgraded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    That's funny!!

    It's an upgrade that the Engineers at Rockshox have developed, I don't think they'd promote something that wasn't an improvement. I've talked to an independent suspension expert, his "opinion" was that Rockshox might've had had too much negative air pressure and they're just correcting it.

    I know very little about suspension compared to the expert/engineer, I trust their analysis...this is an upgraded.
    Its a fix to correct a poorly designed air spring resulting in less negative and positive air spring volume. It isn't an upgrade.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    Its a fix to correct a poorly designed air spring resulting in less negative and positive air spring volume. It isn't an upgrade.
    You're correct, my bad!
    Wrong terminology, substitute fix or correction for upgrade.

  133. #133
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    I fitted the new air spring to my forks last night. I put the same pressure in as The previous
    Spring. Iím going to ride it properly today but itís riding up the road they feel very different, obviously the front end is higher but the fork feels way more firm off the top
    Last edited by dlocki; 04-27-2020 at 12:09 PM.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    I fitted the new air spring to my forks last night. I put the same pressure in as The previous
    Spring. Iím going to ride it properly today but itís riding up the road they feel very different, obviously the front end is higher but the fork feels way more firm.
    Out of curiosity, is your sag % the same as before or slightly less?

  135. #135
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    Sag was 20% using the same pressure which gave my 25% with the old spring

    So just got back from a good 3 hour - if you want to go downhill from point A2B quicker and are willing to give up some suppleness for a very firm fork off the bottom into the mid stroke then this is for you.

    Itís very stiff compared to the old air spring,

    my fork has a HC97 fitted aswel so for me as a first impression I prefer the old one.
    I think with a stock damper this might not be as dramatic?

    I either need to drop 5psi or put the old one back in. I did use all the travel itís just the first bit of travel I felt is too hard.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Dave

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    Rockshox Debonair 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    So just got back from a good 3 hour - if you want to go downhill from point A2B quicker and are willing to give up some suppleness for a very firm fork off the bottom into the mid stroke then this is for you.

    Itís very stiff compared to the old air spring,

    my fork has a HC97 fitted aswel so for me as a first impression I prefer the old one.
    I think with a stock damper this might not be as dramatic?
    You got the air spring + HC97 installed at the same time?

  137. #137
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    No had the Hc97 since last may. I never rode the forks with the stock damper

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    No had the Hc97 since last may. I never rode the forks with the stock damper
    Oh OK

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    I just installed the new sealhead and footnut in my 2020 Lyrik Ultimate. Obviously it sits 10mm higher in it's travel at rest and standing in attack position. Just bouncing in the back lane it's feels the same, seems very smooth (same as before). When I hammer on the fork the o-ring is in the same spot as before. Sag has gone from25% to about 21% with same psi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    I just installed the new sealhead and footnut in my 2020 Lyrik Ultimate. Obviously it sits 10mm higher in it's travel at rest and standing in attack position. Just bouncing in the back lane it's feels the same, seems very smooth (same as before). When I hammer on the fork the o-ring is in the same spot as before. Sag has gone from25% to about 21% with same psi.
    Where did you find the seal head kit? It's out of stock everywhere I've looked. I have a brand new 2019 spring (+10mm over stock) I was about to install, but would add the new seal head at the same time if I can find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strattoa View Post
    Where did you find the seal head kit? It's out of stock everywhere I've looked. I have a brand new 2019 spring (+10mm over stock) I was about to install, but would add the new seal head at the same time if I can find it.
    My LBS(North Vancouver) had some, I had phoned some other shops previous but was told they wouldn't have any in stock until mid May, another was early June. Maybe I lucked out!

  142. #142
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    Iíve just put the old one back in my forks and will do the same ride tomorrow and see how it feels in comparison.

    If you are in the Uk I will probably be selling mine on Monday

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    I'm having a problem with my new airspring and I'm wondering if you guys have run into simillar issues.

    I bought a 2021 airspring to put in my 2020 170mm Lyrik Ultimate. I acidentally bought a 160mm airspring, so I just put the new air seal and footnut on my old airshatf. Installed my updated airspring and performed a lower leg service at the same time with no issues (that I know of...). I put the same air pressure that I had in before (80 psi) to get a feel for how the new airpspring felt. Riding around in the street afterwards it felt good and I could immediately notice that the fork was sitting higher in its travel.

    Fast forward a week (because I'm a weekend warrior) and the fork felt good on the trails, especially in the steeps. After riding for a little bit, I decide to drop the air pressure a little because the forks did feel a little stiff. This is where my problems began:

    -I attach my (Rockshox) shock pump to the forks and it reads 40 psi. Seemed weird because I remembered pumping them up to 80 psi before. I take the shock pump off and feel the forks and they feel fine.

    -I put the shock pump back on and it still reads 40 psi. I decide to pump the forks up to 80 psi (what I had in them before). Now the forks feel extremely stiff (like they have way more than 80 psi).

    -I decide to let all the air out and pump them back up to 40 psi (what the shock pump was reading at first). I did notice that when I released all the air the forks didn't sag all the way down (they only sagged to ~50%). When I put 40 psi in, they feel stiffer then before and also seem to be rebounding faster (I didn't touch the rebound setting).

    -I tried removing all the air again and compressing the forks with "no air". At "0 psi" according to my shock pump, the forks still feel like they have air in them. I pumped them back up to 40 psi and now the forks feel like they're locked out. If I put all my weight on them, they compress ~5 mm. Also, when looking at the sag indicator, they look like they're sitting at 180mm instead of 170mm.

    I'm going to pull the forks apart in a little bit, but I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything like this? Am I an idiot and does it sound like I screwed up the lower leg service (I've done it twice before on Lyriks with no problems)? Or could this be a problem with the new seal head and foot nut I installed on my 2020 airshaft?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenLyrik View Post
    I'm having a problem with my new airspring and I'm wondering if you guys have run into simillar issues.

    I bought a 2021 airspring to put in my 2020 170mm Lyrik Ultimate. I acidentally bought a 160mm airspring, so I just put the new air seal and footnut on my old airshatf. Installed my updated airspring and performed a lower leg service at the same time with no issues (that I know of...). I put the same air pressure that I had in before (80 psi) to get a feel for how the new airpspring felt. Riding around in the street afterwards it felt good and I could immediately notice that the fork was sitting higher in its travel.

    Fast forward a week (because I'm a weekend warrior) and the fork felt good on the trails, especially in the steeps. After riding for a little bit, I decide to drop the air pressure a little because the forks did feel a little stiff. This is where my problems began:

    -I attach my (Rockshox) shock pump to the forks and it reads 40 psi. Seemed weird because I remembered pumping them up to 80 psi before. I take the shock pump off and feel the forks and they feel fine.

    -I put the shock pump back on and it still reads 40 psi. I decide to pump the forks up to 80 psi (what I had in them before). Now the forks feel extremely stiff (like they have way more than 80 psi).

    -I decide to let all the air out and pump them back up to 40 psi (what the shock pump was reading at first). I did notice that when I released all the air the forks didn't sag all the way down (they only sagged to ~50%). When I put 40 psi in, they feel stiffer then before and also seem to be rebounding faster (I didn't touch the rebound setting).

    -I tried removing all the air again and compressing the forks with "no air". At "0 psi" according to my shock pump, the forks still feel like they have air in them. I pumped them back up to 40 psi and now the forks feel like they're locked out. If I put all my weight on them, they compress ~5 mm. Also, when looking at the sag indicator, they look like they're sitting at 180mm instead of 170mm.

    I'm going to pull the forks apart in a little bit, but I'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything like this? Am I an idiot and does it sound like I screwed up the lower leg service (I've done it twice before on Lyriks with no problems)? Or could this be a problem with the new seal head and foot nut I installed on my 2020 airshaft?
    Just to confirm you put the sealhead on the right way and not upside down?
    I've heard several people making this mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    Just to confirm you put the sealhead on the right way and not upside down?
    I've heard several people making this mistake.
    Yep, I made sure to match the sealhead to all the photos we've been seeing online.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rockshox Debonair 2021-img_5762.jpg  


  146. #146
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    Does any retailer have stock of the sealhead upgrade kit? Part#00.4020.573.000
    So far everywhere I've looked (online) it's been out of stock.
    cheers

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    BrokenLyrik

    Try a different shock pump. I've had the gauges go bad before.
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  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenLyrik View Post
    -I tried removing all the air again and compressing the forks with "no air". At "0 psi" according to my shock pump, the forks still feel like they have air in them. I pumped them back up to 40 psi and now the forks feel like they're locked out. If I put all my weight on them, they compress ~5 mm. Also, when looking at the sag indicator, they look like they're sitting at 180mm instead of 170mm.

    I'm fairly sure that you are leaking air into the lower legs, probably from a less-than-airtight airshaft (which extends the negative chamber)

    My advice: empty the airspring by pressing the schrader valve with an allen wrench, then do the zip-tie wiperseal-burp trick, then see how it feels. If everything compresses normally again, you probably have a negative chamber leak into the lower legs.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    Does any retailer have stock of the sealhead upgrade kit? Part#00.4020.573.000
    So far everywhere I've looked (online) it's been out of stock.
    cheers
    I think mine arrived Friday. But I'm probably in the wrong hemisphere for you.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Ok so I went and did the same ride as yesterday, back on the old air spring.

    The old spring is more supple on the small stuff and gives tons more front end feel, i didnít use full travel - probably 15mm left.

    So from the two rides back to back. New spring - sits higher, not as supple, gives up full travel easier.

    Personally I prefer the old - I must add I have a hc97 and not a stock damper

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    I keep reading about people removing the top out bumper on the 19/20 spring to add even more negative volume. Is there no risk in this?

    Could removing the bumper from the C1 ('21) spring be a sort of middle ground between the two designs?

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    I think it would probably top out without it in now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    I think it would probably top out without it in now
    Is that not the case with the 19/20 spring? Just trying to understand why RS included the bumper if it wasn't needed, but they were trying to add negative volume.

    Thanks,

    Drew

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    I'm fairly sure that you are leaking air into the lower legs, probably from a less-than-airtight airshaft (which extends the negative chamber)

    My advice: empty the airspring by pressing the schrader valve with an allen wrench, then do the zip-tie wiperseal-burp trick, then see how it feels. If everything compresses normally again, you probably have a negative chamber leak into the lower legs.
    Yep, you are correct. I found that out the hard way when I pulled my forks apart and had oil and air explode out of the lower leg. I inspected the inside of the air chamber and didn't see any scratches or marks, so I'm thinking its a problem with the o-ring on the seal head. I'm going to order a larger o-ring and see what that does.

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenLyrik View Post
    Yep, you are correct. I found that out the hard way when I pulled my forks apart and had oil and air explode out of the lower leg. I inspected the inside of the air chamber and didn't see any scratches or marks, so I'm thinking its a problem with the o-ring on the seal head. I'm going to order a larger o-ring and see what that does.
    That's not a good idea. The correct part is the correct part. They didn't spec the wrong size.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    That's not a good idea. The correct part is the correct part. They didn't spec the wrong size.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
    Completely agree!!!

    I would inspect the o-ring and if it looks good, then I would clean everything thing again and re-grease the seals and o-rings then reassemble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strattoa View Post
    I keep reading about people removing the top out bumper on the 19/20 spring to add even more negative volume. Is there no risk in this?

    Could removing the bumper from the C1 ('21) spring be a sort of middle ground between the two designs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strattoa View Post
    Is that not the case with the 19/20 spring? Just trying to understand why RS included the bumper if it wasn't needed, but they were trying to add negative volume.

    Thanks,

    Drew
    My19 debonair balances air chambers 10mm earlier than my21 debonair (think about it as 30mm top out travel instead of 20mm).
    It results in a lot more pressure in the negative chamber for the last 20mm when removing the top out bumber( note that you should not remove the top out bumber if your fork is at max spec travel aka 180lyrik/160pike)
    So pneumatic top out spring wouldnt be very strong with the my21 debonair upgrade, also it would ruin the idea of no dead spring stroke at the balance port because it would be able to go higher in travel than the port.

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    Spent a full day on it out at Greer Ranch today and I can confidently say that this improved my comfort on my bike. I used to feel very uncomfortable on steep trails because I always felt like I was going to go over the bars, especially if there were drops or big rocks to hang up on. The feel of the bike being able to hold itself up feels great in the steep and rocky so the trails there that used to make me nervous felt normal and way easier/predictable to ride.

    Another place that I really felt the improvement was in rock gardens. The bike feels way more composed when the trail get choppy and rough, especially when there are drops involved.

    I have dropped 5 PSI in comparison to the previous generation Debonair and I sped up my rebound 3 clicks. Overall, I'm really happy with it and am looking forward to spending more time in other riding areas after this Coronavirus stuff lets up to get a full grasp on it..

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    Its a fix to correct a poorly designed air spring resulting in less negative and positive air spring volume. It isn't an upgrade.
    Hey POAH,

    Your understanding of this recently released (I hesitate to say "new" as someone on here said they assumed new = better) air spring seems to align with what my thoughts are. The only difference is that I believe the 2021 spring produces a firmer initial stroke as well as a firmer mid stroke. I say this based on putting a band into my Debonair rear shock's negative spring; I was able to run the same pressure but get 2% less sag, resulting in the shock sitting higher in the stroke and the same end stroke ramp.

    I'm currently running a 150mm air shaft + Luftkappe which I love. I am thinking about going to 160mm, but am concerned that the Luftkappe design might make it too progressive. Even Steve @ Vorsprung acknowledges on the product page that 160mm might be too progressive.

    Question 1:

    Does it really just come down to

    2021 air spring vs 2018-2020 air spring
    1. less supple initial stroke vs more supple initial stroke
    2. more supportive mid stroke vs - (I have not ridden this config so I can't say how supportive it is, and refrain from saying "less supportive" because "less" implies it is compared against a reference)
    3. more progressive end stroke vs -

    I honesty don't care about the 3-4mm "loss". The Luftkappe already has this effect and it's all part of the package to get a super sweet initial stroke. When you put your weight on the bike those initial 20mm's disappear anyway and as long as the fork rides the way you want, that's all that matters.

    All I'm looking for is to run my fork at 160mm with the same characteristics as the LK, without insane end stroke ramp.

    Question 2:

    Can anyone comment on 2021 Debonair vs Luftkappe? It seems like 2018-2020 vs Luftkappe, LK wins out more than half the time.

  160. #160
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    Having ridden the new air spring.

    it is less supple, the mid stroke is softer and personally feel it is less progressive.
    If I was keeping the 21 spring I would have to add another token to get the ramp I wanted

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    Having ridden the new air spring.

    it is less supple, the mid stroke is softer and personally feel it is less progressive.
    If I was keeping the 21 spring I would have to add another token to get the ramp I wanted
    But you have a different damper(not stock) don't you?

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenLyrik View Post
    Yep, you are correct. I found that out the hard way when I pulled my forks apart and had oil and air explode out of the lower leg. I inspected the inside of the air chamber and didn't see any scratches or marks, so I'm thinking its a problem with the o-ring on the seal head. I'm going to order a larger o-ring and see what that does.
    doesnt that new footnut seal the air chamber in the airshaft interior? my money is on a problem during the footnut switch...

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    But you have a different damper(not stock) don't you?
    Yes I have a HC97 which firms the fork up anyway.

  164. #164
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    I have a 2018 Lyric RC 160mm on a transition sentinel that needs a service and I am looking at options to improve mid stroke support and increase dynamic ride height. I basically want it to feel more like a 36 support wise and am willing to give up some plushness. Currently has the stock 2 tokens and bottom out if fine but it is more divey than I want unless I add a ton of LSC making it too harsh.
    Option 1: Rebuild with new seals current config, add pressure maybe remove a token ~$150
    Option 2: Rebuild with a new airspring (maybe a 170) as the 21 version is marketed to do what I want ~$200
    Option 3: Send to vorsprung for a luftkappe and tune ~$300 (inc shipping)
    Option 4: Send to push for a rebuild and hc97 ~$500
    Option 5: Sell it and buy a takeoff 36 grip2 if I can find one ~$500

    Any comparisons performance wise between these options? I don't really want to go to a coil so I can alter spring rate more easily for different riding (trail vs enduro vs park and using my mac-ride with a 40lb kid).

    Also interested in suggested shops in New England.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlhulit View Post
    I have a 2018 Lyric RC 160mm on a transition sentinel that needs a service and I am looking at options to improve mid stroke support and increase dynamic ride height. I basically want it to feel more like a 36 support wise and am willing to give up some plushness. Currently has the stock 2 tokens and bottom out if fine but it is more divey than I want unless I add a ton of LSC making it too harsh.
    Option 1: Rebuild with new seals current config, add pressure maybe remove a token ~$150
    Option 2: Rebuild with a new airspring (maybe a 170) as the 21 version is marketed to do what I want ~$200
    Option 3: Send to vorsprung for a luftkappe and tune ~$300 (inc shipping)
    Option 4: Send to push for a rebuild and hc97 ~$500
    Option 5: Sell it and buy a takeoff 36 grip2 if I can find one ~$500

    Any comparisons performance wise between these options? I don't really want to go to a coil so I can alter spring rate more easily for different riding (trail vs enduro vs park and using my mac-ride with a 40lb kid).

    Also interested in suggested shops in New England.
    If you do it yourself, option 1 is about $50 if buying new seals and lube, and option 2 $100. Pretty affordable experiment.

  166. #166
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    So how much travel off the top are we talking about gaining with the new seal head?

    As far as I can tell, on my Lyric, 2019 I think, looks to me like I'm loosing probably 3-5mm at most.

    Interesting how reports are all over the place with how the new seal head changes the feel of the fork.

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    So how much travel off the top are we talking about gaining with the new seal head?

    As far as I can tell, on my Lyric, 2019 I think, looks to me like I'm loosing probably 3-5mm at most.

    Interesting how reports are all over the place with how the new seal head changes the feel of the fork.
    Outside observation: Suspension performance "feel" seems highly subjective to me as there are so many variables involved.

  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strattoa View Post
    If you do it yourself, option 1 is about $50 if buying new seals and lube, and option 2 $100. Pretty affordable experiment.
    I have a 3yo so time is scarce and don't have all the tools to do this properly so I would rather pay a shop for the full service. Mostly looking to decide what upgrades are worthwhile.

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    So how much travel off the top are we talking about gaining with the new seal head?

    As far as I can tell, on my Lyric, 2019 I think, looks to me like I'm loosing probably 3-5mm at most.

    Interesting how reports are all over the place with how the new seal head changes the feel of the fork.
    My 170mm lyrik sits at 168mm with the Deb spring, with the deb3 it was a tad over 170

  170. #170
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    2019 150mm airspring.
    210lb on bike
    90 psi stock air-cap
    87 / 160psi using DSD RUNT
    Avy damper
    ~12mm suckdown.

    Suckdown does not change if stock air-cap or DSD RUNT.
    Hatched in '64
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  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    So how much travel off the top are we talking about gaining with the new seal head?

    As far as I can tell, on my Lyric, 2019 I think, looks to me like I'm loosing probably 3-5mm at most.

    Interesting how reports are all over the place with how the new seal head changes the feel of the fork.
    My 160mm Lyrik was sitting at 153mm, with the new Debonair C1, it's sitting at 161mm. Same psi.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    So how much travel off the top are we talking about gaining with the new seal head?

    As far as I can tell, on my Lyric, 2019 I think, looks to me like I'm loosing probably 3-5mm at most.

    Interesting how reports are all over the place with how the new seal head changes the feel of the fork.
    My '19 170 Lyrik sits neutral at 0mm suckdown according to stanchion marks.

    If the suckdown issue is a confirmed issue across the board, perhaps I have a little air trapped in the lowers or something but things have been working great so I'm not messing with it.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    Yes I have a HC97 which firms the fork up anyway.
    I think more accurate would be to say it can firm the fork up. As Darren stated in another post you can make the hc97 have the same amount of damper force as stock. So I imagine with new air spring if you wanted to run less damping to see how that compares you could do so.

    Iíd imagine if the new one is firmer off the top without losing mid stroke then Iíd interpret that as more linear since I think itís a bit progressive right now with the beginning stroke being fairly soft and then a fairly quick ramp up. So that would make the new one more like a coil which Iím going to guess the hc97 was truly designed around to go with the acs3. Thatís just an assumption though.

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    My 160mm Lyrik was sitting at 153mm, with the new Debonair C1, it's sitting at 161mm. Same psi.
    The suck down is affected by friction in the seals and wipers. So, if you serviced the fork during the air spring change, and it had been a little while since the last one, it's hard to say how much of the difference is the new part and how much is the service.

    Sent from my 2PZC5 using Tapatalk

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    The suck down is affected by friction in the seals and wipers. So, if you serviced the fork during the air spring change, and it had been a little while since the last one, it's hard to say how much of the difference is the new part and how much is the service.

    Sent from my 2PZC5 using Tapatalk
    It's a 2020 Lyrik Ultimate with 6 rides on it, so basically brand new, so the improvement is all air shaft(new sealhead and footnut) related.

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    It's a 2020 Lyrik Ultimate with 6 rides on it, so basically brand new, so the improvement is all air shaft(new sealhead and footnut) related.


    That is good context to have.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlhulit View Post
    I have a 2018 Lyric RC 160mm on a transition sentinel

    Option 3: Send to vorsprung for a luftkappe and tune ~$300 (inc shipping)


    Also interested in suggested shops in New England.

    I had the exact same sensation with pikes and the luftkappe changed the fork totally.

    took tokens out and put more air in but made the fork stiffer for small stuff.

  178. #178
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    Rockshox Debonair 2021

    I have the 2021 airspring installed in my 160mm pike together with the HC97. Yes, it is now much firmer of the top but the progression is more gradual if this makes sense. However I do not feel it harsh of the top or so. I am using 2.5wt in the damper instead off 5wt if this somehow relates to this? Honestly, I feel my bike is more balanced now because my rear shock (deluxe rt) has not much to adjust and I never could get them balanced. My fork always felt more divey than my rear shock. This is now gone and nicely balanced. Furthermore, i feel that the geometry of my Jeffsy has improved as I am now sitting more upright, but in a pleasant way. So even if 2021 Debonair has less compliance of the top, in my case the comfort and balance increased. I will try for a while but currently I am surprised how well it fits my bike (and riding skill). Cheers to everyone!


    Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

  179. #179
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    Also, this is not Debonair related but if you are feeling divey and/or lacking balance, run your fork sag at 2/3 of your shock sag. ie. Fork 20% if shock is 30%. Steve from Vorsprung recommends this, and I can confirm the same with >50 documented pre-ride/post-ride checks (which I did before seeing Steve's suggestion).

    This is done with 0 LCS on a level surface. Then dial LSC to taste. I ride undulating/rolling terrain, so no steep faces or huge drops, so LSC = 0 at both ends for me.

  180. #180
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    Interesting! Thanks for the info. IĎll take that into account an give it a try next time I service my fork. However Iím still quite happy at the moment. Maybe Iíam just a little biased towards Ąnew = better productď. Who knows...

  181. #181
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    So I created a drawing showing the differences in shafts.

    All 170mm Lyrik/Yari shafts.

    Solo air (original debonair)
    Solo air with Vorsprung Luftkappe
    Debonair 2 (2018)
    Debonair 3 (2020)

    As you can see. The seal heights are all over the place. The notch place in stanchion I need to confirm before putting that relative location in. Because the location I have right now doesn't look right.

    The drawing has two groupings.
    View 1 has the shafts aligned by base-plate location and top-out bumpers engaged.
    View 2 has the shafts and base-plates aligned to show differences in length.

    Debonair 3 foot is 8mm longer than Debonair 2. Running that foot with the Debonair base-plate risks chewing up the scaper seal at bottom-out.

    http://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/pd...20-%20Copy.PDF
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  182. #182
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dougal again.

    Great drawing!

    Has anyone had success smoothing out the dimple and adding a negative port?

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So I created a drawing showing the differences in shafts.

    All 170mm Lyrik/Yari shafts.

    Solo air (original debonair)
    Solo air with Vorsprung Luftkappe
    Debonair 2 (2018)
    Debonair 3 (2020)

    As you can see. The seal heights are all over the place. The notch place in stanchion I need to confirm before putting that relative location in. Because the location I have right now doesn't look right.

    The drawing has two groupings.
    View 1 has the shafts aligned by base-plate location and top-out bumpers engaged.
    View 2 has the shafts and base-plates aligned to show differences in length.

    Debonair 3 foot is 8mm longer than Debonair 2. Running that foot with the Debonair base-plate risks chewing up the scaper seal at bottom-out.

    http://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/pd...20-%20Copy.PDF
    Nice drawings. So I think the second set where theyíre leveled by shaft ends is the most relevant to where they would actually match up to each other. Thatís kind of interesting the solo air and debonair the pistons end up even and then the luftkappe actually ends up lower so maybe not as much of a positive volume loss as I had always thought. Now the new debonair actually sits higher than even original solo air did. Not sure what all this will mean in actual use but itís interesting how two are fairly similar to each other and two are completely opposite.

  184. #184
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    I have a 2020 Lyrik Ultimate and the dead travel actually never bothered me. Sag to me is more important and if set your sag properly you already lost some travel. If I'm not sitting on the bike who cares if it uses 5mm of travel.

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Nice drawings. So I think the second set where theyíre leveled by shaft ends is the most relevant to where they would actually match up to each other. Thatís kind of interesting the solo air and debonair the pistons end up even and then the luftkappe actually ends up lower so maybe not as much of a positive volume loss as I had always thought. Now the new debonair actually sits higher than even original solo air did. Not sure what all this will mean in actual use but itís interesting how two are fairly similar to each other and two are completely opposite.
    The most relevant is the equalisation point where pos and neg forces balance. But that takes more work than I had time for today.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The most relevant is the equalisation point where pos and neg forces balance. But that takes more work than I had time for today.
    Right but the piston location is relative to that as well right? Theyíre all going to have the same dimple location in the stanchion so the piston heights will be the change to where the equalization point is.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Right but the piston location is relative to that as well right? Theyíre all going to have the same dimple location in the stanchion so the piston heights will be the change to where the equalization point is.
    It'll be driven by notch vs seal height and negative compression ratio. Which is impacted again by negative volume.

    It's a fun game working all that out.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  188. #188
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    Hey guys,
    What about the fox 36 piston in 2021? I believe it also has a bigger negative chamber. Does anybody have any information on that one? Could be 2021 spring fited in older forks?

  189. #189
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    After some riding, under pressure is establising on the bottom of the casting which is further sucking down the fork.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    Ok so I went and did the same ride as yesterday, back on the old air spring.

    The old spring is more supple on the small stuff and gives tons more front end feel, i didnít use full travel - probably 15mm left.

    So from the two rides back to back. New spring - sits higher, not as supple, gives up full travel easier.

    Personally I prefer the old - I must add I have a hc97 and not a stock damper
    So it has less progression because of more space in room i mentioned above.
    Less subtle because of smaller negative chamber and less sag.
    Maybe compare the 2 with +1 token in DebonAir3.

    On a 160mm fork it would be interesting to see results of an 170mm DebonAir3 shaft with 10mm spacer and running DualAir with another valve.
    Obviously this will reduce nr. of max. installed tokens by 1/2.

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Debonair 3 foot is 8mm longer than Debonair 2. Running that foot with the Debonair base-plate risks chewing up the scaper seal at bottom-out.
    What seal ?

  191. #191
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    I have a Lyric Select Plus at 170mm. Iím 185 and running 90psi.

    Iím finding that it transmits a lot of force on quick hard hits. It feels good on successive hits at high speed. I notice it more on our local trails that are tech and slow speed with a lot of abrupt square edges.

    Iím going to play with less PSI and lowering the compression adjuster(I think itís an LCS so unsure how much that will affect the hard abrupt hits?)

    Any thoughts on if this new spring would affect the fork in these hard quick impacts and allow me to tune for better performance in these situations?

    Trying to decide if itís best to deal with what I have, add the 21í RS seal head, add a luftkappe(had this on an old pike and it was a big upgrade), add a push HC97 or add a Smashpot( I had this on a Fox 36 and it was a solid upgrade).

    There seems to be tons of options and loads of experience on this thread. I appreciate your thoughts on this.

  192. #192
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    Servicing my fork yesterday, I noticed that with the air cap off, I still couldn't compress the fork to the internal stops. Between the pressure in the open bath damper and the spring negative/lower leg pressure, there's enough pressure build up to support about 200lbs with 10mm of travel left on a 170mm Lyrik.

    Wonder how much of a difference that seal head volume that's moved into the lowers would change this?

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It'll be driven by notch vs seal height and negative compression ratio. Which is impacted again by negative volume.

    It's a fun game working all that out.
    I worked that all out for you: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/dnpvbyatsn

    Well not really. I cheated and simplified. The above link takes you to a generalised model for a debonair spring.

    • x=0 is "at the dimple"
    • y is force, with 1 matching the load at sag. If the y force goes up to 4 at bottom out, that is 4 times the force at sag.
    • The x-axis goes from -10 to 100. The graph plots 100 units on the x-axis starting from the zero force (topout) position which is always "above the dimple" so negative on the x-axis.
    • The cross-section area of the piston is normalised to 1
    • The cross-section acting for the negative is a ratio, An, calculated from nominal values


    The maths means the shape of the curve is correct for opposed negative and positive springs. To alter the particular curve you get to flex three values via sliders:

    1. Xp - The size of the positive chamber (from the dimple). This is in units of the x-axis, so a value of 150 is close but not exactly a 3:1 compression ratio (CR = 150/~50).
    2. Xn - The size of the negative chamber in the same normalised units
    3. Xsag - Sag position in normalised units relative to the dimple position. If topout is at -3, a Xsag of 22 is something like 25% sag in traditional terms


    All the formulae are on show so you can tell me if I've made any errors.

    It's just a model. Don't shoot me. The normalisations (for simplicity) mean it doesn't directly answer the questions being asked in this thread but it does correctly boil the model down to three variable parameters.

    As Xp is the volume above the dimple, we can just substitute in the measurement for the Lyrik stanchions.

    As Xsag is down to the psi you set with your shock pump it isn't a design parameter; it is a user choice.

    The only design variable left is the negative chamber size, Xn. The footnut length just adjusts how the spring curve meets the limit states at each end of the travel.

  194. #194
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    I calculated something like a 5lb difference between the 2, so combined with the lower pressure needed for the new debonair it will definitely be easier to bottom the new forks!
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Suspension servicing & tuning in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

  195. #195
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    I finished modelling up the springs earlier this week, can certainly see how this will ride much higher in its travel, and I estimate roughly 10psi less required pressure for the average person, so getting full travel will be much easier for sure.

    It doesn't seem like it will be my cup of tea, but it may pair well with the stock damper since it is pretty low on support

    We shall see if I can convince myself to remove the smashpot and take it for a test (don't hold your breath)

    Rockshox Debonair 2021-rockshox_springs.jpg
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Suspension servicing & tuning in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I calculated something like a 5lb difference between the 2, so combined with the lower pressure needed for the new debonair it will definitely be easier to bottom the new forks!
    Totally agree - it gives up the travel loads easier, once you get past the first 1/3rd

  197. #197
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    Hrm, couple work out with the Runt. Relative to the debonair 2, you could run the main chamber softer to help out on the steeper initial curve but run a higher pressure ratio in the Runt to help mid-stroke and bottoming force. Goal being too match the Debonair 2 curve with the Runt at a lower pressure ratio but get rid of the dead travel.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by x-rated View Post
    What seal ?
    All these air springs have a shaft scraper seal in the end-cap. That's the one that'll have a bad time if you run Debonair 2 to full travel with the Debonair 3 shaft foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Hrm, couple work out with the Runt. Relative to the debonair 2, you could run the main chamber softer to help out on the steeper initial curve but run a higher pressure ratio in the Runt to help mid-stroke and bottoming force. Goal being too match the Debonair 2 curve with the Runt at a lower pressure ratio but get rid of the dead travel.
    Or you could buy a 5 year old Manitou Mattoc which has all this already. Plus a better damper.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    I worked that all out for you: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/dnpvbyatsn

    Well not really. I cheated and simplified. The above link takes you to a generalised model for a debonair spring.

    • x=0 is "at the dimple"
    • y is force, with 1 matching the load at sag. If the y force goes up to 4 at bottom out, that is 4 times the force at sag.
    • The x-axis goes from -10 to 100. The graph plots 100 units on the x-axis starting from the zero force (topout) position which is always "above the dimple" so negative on the x-axis.
    • The cross-section area of the piston is normalised to 1
    • The cross-section acting for the negative is a ratio, An, calculated from nominal values


    The maths means the shape of the curve is correct for opposed negative and positive springs. To alter the particular curve you get to flex three values via sliders:

    1. Xp - The size of the positive chamber (from the dimple). This is in units of the x-axis, so a value of 150 is close but not exactly a 3:1 compression ratio (CR = 150/~50).
    2. Xn - The size of the negative chamber in the same normalised units
    3. Xsag - Sag position in normalised units relative to the dimple position. If topout is at -3, a Xsag of 22 is something like 25% sag in traditional terms


    All the formulae are on show so you can tell me if I've made any errors.

    It's just a model. Don't shoot me. The normalisations (for simplicity) mean it doesn't directly answer the questions being asked in this thread but it does correctly boil the model down to three variable parameters.

    As Xp is the volume above the dimple, we can just substitute in the measurement for the Lyrik stanchions.

    As Xsag is down to the psi you set with your shock pump it isn't a design parameter; it is a user choice.

    The only design variable left is the negative chamber size, Xn. The footnut length just adjusts how the spring curve meets the limit states at each end of the travel.
    Nice work. I haven't seen that webapp before.

    The upshot of all the negative air variations is simply how much you cut off the start of the S curve. Lots of negative and you can cut off all of it. But then you've still got the other end getting closer and you're probably running out of stanchion length to flatten that out.

    Plus the differences in air spring curves between static and dynamic compression.

    Here's Rulezman with a Dorado air graph or two: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_nA1Geilo5/
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I finished modelling up the springs earlier this week, can certainly see how this will ride much higher in its travel, and I estimate roughly 10psi less required pressure for the average person, so getting full travel will be much easier for sure.

    It doesn't seem like it will be my cup of tea, but it may pair well with the stock damper since it is pretty low on support

    We shall see if I can convince myself to remove the smashpot and take it for a test (don't hold your breath)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So if Iím looking at it correct then the debonair 2 has a firmer beginning and a softer end vs the other two? So this would actually be a more linear spring? Never realized the original debonair was so progressive I thought it was more focused on raising the mid stroke vs softening the beginning. I just install mine today and you can tell itís different right away but not necessarily bad. I know the graph says itís firmer than solo air but Iím not so sure Iím feeling that, solo air also felt it had a high resistance to move an I donít think Iím getting that with this. Tomorrow will be a real ride to see whatís what.

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