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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Or you could buy a 5 year old Manitou Mattoc which has all this already. Plus a better damper.
    When you can pick up a new take off for 40% of retail in the US, like you can with a Lyrik, I'll definitely consider it.

    I think a Mezzer is the next fork I'll own though. Or a boxer hybrid, just because I'm curious.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    When you can pick up a new take off for 40% of retail in the US, like you can with a Lyrik, I'll definitely consider it.

    I think a Mezzer is the next fork I'll own though. Or a boxer hybrid, just because I'm curious.
    Where are you seeing these 40% off takeoffs? I want one!


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  3. #203
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    I grabbed a new low-offset Lyrik take off from pinkbike last fall for $400 shipped. It took a few weeks of searching to get it, but that was just because it was the low offset version I was after. Normal offset ones were constantly popping up for that price.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    So if Iím looking at it correct then the debonair 2 has a firmer beginning and a softer end vs the other two? So this would actually be a more linear spring? Never realized the original debonair was so progressive I thought it was more focused on raising the mid stroke vs softening the beginning. I just install mine today and you can tell itís different right away but not necessarily bad. I know the graph says itís firmer than solo air but Iím not so sure Iím feeling that, solo air also felt it had a high resistance to move an I donít think Iím getting that with this. Tomorrow will be a real ride to see whatís what.
    Depends how you define progression, debonair had a large increase in FORCE (as in ramp) but actually less change in RATE than the 2021 spring.

    When talking about instantaneous rate(or derivative), solo air starts slightly high, drops a little bit then increases at the end. Debonair 2 starts higher, drops lower and then finishes higher again
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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Depends how you define progression, debonair had a large increase in FORCE (as in ramp) but actually less change in RATE than the 2021 spring.

    When talking about instantaneous rate(or derivative), solo air starts slightly high, drops a little bit then increases at the end. Debonair 2 starts higher, drops lower and then finishes higher again
    Hmm well I guess Iíll see. It seems odd to go to all that trouble just to end up almost identical to solo air. Iím wondering if there is more going on once the lowers air space is calculated as well?

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    I grabbed a new low-offset Lyrik take off from pinkbike last fall for $400 shipped. It took a few weeks of searching to get it, but that was just because it was the low offset version I was after. Normal offset ones were constantly popping up for that price.
    Nice, gonna have to start looking for these. Just need to find one with an uncut steerer


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  7. #207
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    All of this analysis has me looking at the Luftkappe, which looks like it might be more of an improvement over the Debonair 2.

    The Luftkappe works with the solo air air spring. Given that I have a Debonair 2 spring in my fork, can I use the red metal sealhead with the solo air shaft to take advantage of the friction reduction?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    All of this analysis has me looking at the Luftkappe, which looks like it might be more of an improvement over the Debonair 2.

    The Luftkappe works with the solo air air spring. Given that I have a Debonair 2 spring in my fork, can I use the red metal sealhead with the solo air shaft to take advantage of the friction reduction?
    Yes
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  9. #209
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    Ok first ride done and hit a mix of forest with slower tech roll in and some dips and then also another trail with high speed rock chunk. Iím gonna day for me this is an improvement. I donít know why the graph makes it look similar to solo air because it doesnít ride like choppy solo air at all. Overall ride feel I think is smoother. Also itís more lively and isnít as hard to get the front wheel up when trying to pop off stuff. Iím actually running slightly higher psi since before when I ran the recommended psi on old debonair it had a rougher feeling.

    So my perceived difference is the old would be really soft initially but then ramp really fast and almost just sit solid in mid travel and feel like it was packing. This cause me to run my rebound faster than desired for g out returns but if slower then the fork felt really dead.

    New spring sits higher, noticeable right from the very first descent. It still goes through travel and absorbs bumps but it rides higher in the softer part of travel and is also more lively. I wouldnít say itís like a coil because no air spring is (even though itís been a while since Iíve been on a coil) but it has that initial instant support like a coil without being harsh just like a coil. I need to do another couple rides one with the token taken out and same psi and another with token in (current was with a token in) and reduced by like 5psi just to compare because it may be ramping up more than I need but overall I was pretty happy with the change.

    Before one says itís because you just rebuilt it, this fork was rebuilt fairly recently (like late feb) to install the charger 2.1 seal head onto my hc97 2.0.

    It may not be for everyone but if you have the 25.00 to try it may be worth it for you. Iím happier with it.

  10. #210
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    I'm having some analysis paralysis here... Hopefully someone can help me out! I've got a 170mm Lyrik with a Charger 2.0 in it, and the old Solo Air air spring.

    I'm trying to decide between the following
    170mm - 2020 Debonair
    180mm - 2020 Debonair
    170mm - 2021 Debonair

    I'm about 160 lbs, and ride a lot of steep technical trails, but slowly because I'm not that good. Max size drop I'd hit is about 6 to 8 feet.

    It seems, from the air spring graph, that the 2020 Debonair could provide more mid-stroke support, while still being supple at the beginning of the stroke, if you gave it a bit more pressure than used in the chart. You could compensate for the end of the travel being hard to use by removing a token. That seems like it might be the winner, based on people's assertion that the 2020 Debonair sits too low in its travel?

    Is there any point to running a 180mm spring with a bit more sag, to compensate for the lower ride height? I don't feel like I need more travel, but it seems like some people were considering that. Does that make the travel feel more like a plusher 170mm solo air spring, with less friction?

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegli View Post
    I'm having some analysis paralysis here... Hopefully someone can help me out! I've got a 170mm Lyrik with a Charger 2.0 in it, and the old Solo Air air spring.

    I'm trying to decide between the following
    170mm - 2020 Debonair
    180mm - 2020 Debonair
    170mm - 2021 Debonair

    I'm about 160 lbs, and ride a lot of steep technical trails, but slowly because I'm not that good. Max size drop I'd hit is about 6 to 8 feet.

    It seems, from the air spring graph, that the 2020 Debonair could provide more mid-stroke support, while still being supple at the beginning of the stroke, if you gave it a bit more pressure than used in the chart. You could compensate for the end of the travel being hard to use by removing a token. That seems like it might be the winner, based on people's assertion that the 2020 Debonair sits too low in its travel?

    Is there any point to running a 180mm spring with a bit more sag, to compensate for the lower ride height? I don't feel like I need more travel, but it seems like some people were considering that. Does that make the travel feel more like a plusher 170mm solo air spring, with less friction?
    I had the same decision to make and decided I didn't want to mess with climbing geometry so I stuck with 170. I don't know that 180 would have tweaked it much but decided to err on the side of what the bike was originally spec'ed with.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegli View Post
    I'm having some analysis paralysis here... Hopefully someone can help me out! I've got a 170mm Lyrik with a Charger 2.0 in it, and the old Solo Air air spring.

    I'm trying to decide between the following
    170mm - 2020 Debonair
    180mm - 2020 Debonair
    170mm - 2021 Debonair

    I'm about 160 lbs, and ride a lot of steep technical trails, but slowly because I'm not that good. Max size drop I'd hit is about 6 to 8 feet.

    It seems, from the air spring graph, that the 2020 Debonair could provide more mid-stroke support, while still being supple at the beginning of the stroke, if you gave it a bit more pressure than used in the chart. You could compensate for the end of the travel being hard to use by removing a token. That seems like it might be the winner, based on people's assertion that the 2020 Debonair sits too low in its travel?

    Is there any point to running a 180mm spring with a bit more sag, to compensate for the lower ride height? I don't feel like I need more travel, but it seems like some people were considering that. Does that make the travel feel more like a plusher 170mm solo air spring, with less friction?
    after my ride today I think you'd like the 2021 especially if your riding steep tech slower.

  13. #213
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    Trying to decide what to do with my 2020 pike 140, from what it sounds like the '21 spring might not be the way to go?

    My issues been that in order to keep the fork high in its travel to stay supple on medium-big, and repeated smaller square edge hits, I need to run higher pressure, which makes small bump and traction worse, so i run more tokens than i need to be able to lower the air pressure and still keep the fork high, which means now im never using full travel because its got so much ramp up.

    If the new debonair uses its mid travel more easily I would think thats the opposite of what i want? unless it doesnt hit the harsh end of stroke ramp up as easily as my '20 debonair?

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    What a great explanation that is easy to understand. Thank you for that.

    From my perspective, I'll stick with my Debonair. I did remove the negative chamber bump stop and that combined with the addition of low friction Push seals (already has a great Avy cartridge) made the fork down right coil like. I mean it has no stiction, but it has better mid- travel support too.

    Don't care about the 5mm of fork sag, it doesn't matter to me and I still run the same 22% sag based off the full 160mm travel.

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    exactly! where it sits on the trailer and where it sits when you ride are two diff things.

    seems like this was a patch to address perception.

    we all want to measure our em travel dont we!

  15. #215
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    Those poor Engineers at Rockshox must be incompetent. Their self-esteem must be shattered, put all that research and testing into improving their suspension. Only to have theoretical data prove them wrong!

    With the stock damper, I've noticed an improvement with the new sealhead and footnut. No negatives.

  16. #216
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    If riders decide they prefer the new spring them Iím fine with that, Iím not going to try and force people one way or the other. But it is an interesting case because the development has clearly gone in the opposite direction to what was quite well like already
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    If riders decide they prefer the new spring them Iím fine with that, Iím not going to try and force people one way or the other. But it is an interesting case because the development has clearly gone in the opposite direction to what was quite well like already
    It sounds like people had problems with the previous air spring as well? Would you not be in agreement, that they went a little too far with the negative chamber and that this was a correction with the new air shaft? I've seen a bunch of reviews, comparing a stock Lyrik from 2020 to the new sealhead and footnut, and all state it was an improvement, without giving up initial suppleness. I'm sure you can't test ride every suspension system, but have you ridden the airshafts to compare?
    Thoughts based on that?

    Just to clarify, I'm not questioning your expertise! It just that these theoretical analysis doesn't seem as relevant as actually riding these different airshafts to compare. For us regular folks that have a minimal understanding.
    Cheers

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nice work. I haven't seen that webapp before.
    I've done a bit more work on the model. It is still more a curiosity than an analysis of any forks existing in the real world. Still, I've wanted for a long time to move beyond spring force and spring rate and analyse the stored energy in the spring (area under the curve). That was relatively easy to do:
    Rockshox Debonair 2021-desmos-graph-1-.png

    Be warned it is now animated: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rghcl5bvvt

    Notes:

    • There is a pause button at the top left to stop the animation
    • You can drag a couple of settings around with drag handles on the diagram
    • The model is set up for a 170 fork with three "pretend" variations of negative chamber size, medium (32), small (22) and large (42), giving three curves
    • The curves are compensated by running different tokens in the positive: med (2), small (3), large (1)
    • Sag is for a nominal load of 1 - dotted vertical purple lines mark the intersect point where each of the curves pass 1
    • You can set (drag) the sag position for the first curve (medium) between 20% and 30%
    • The other curves are normalised (i.e. pressure adjusted by ~10%) for equal area under the Force curve (stored energy) at a point you can set (drag)
    • hint: try moving equal energy to coincide with "sag" or "bottom out" for different results
    • Sag for the small and large is calculated, but with the compensated tokens count, it more or less stays in the same place


    The upshot of all this analysis is nothing we don't already know. Springs with higher compression ratios have more of an S shape with less midstroke support.

    If we run the model again and use the same number of positive chamber tokens (2) for all sizes of negative chamber:
    • the sag positions for each spring become quite different
    • as overall energy in the springs is held to be the same, it means each spring configuration is shifting energy capacity from "above sag" to "below sag"
    • pressure normalisation for this comparison is +/-3%

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/qelwrc6fam
    Last edited by petercarm; 05-03-2020 at 11:21 PM. Reason: Replaced "springs with smaller air chambers" to "springs with higher compression ratios"

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    It sounds like people had problems with the previous air spring as well? Would you not be in agreement, that they went a little too far with the negative chamber and that this was a correction with the new air shaft? I've seen a bunch of reviews, comparing a stock Lyrik from 2020 to the new sealhead and footnut, and all state it was an improvement, without giving up initial suppleness. I'm sure you can't test ride every suspension system, but have you ridden the airshafts to compare?
    Thoughts based on that?

    Just to clarify, I'm not questioning your expertise! It just that these theoretical analysis doesn't seem as relevant as actually riding these different airshafts to compare. For us regular folks that have a minimal understanding.
    Cheers
    Yea Iím curious as to the graph not matching real world test. I have had this fork since 2018 with all three spring now and each has been an improvement over the other. So when the calculated feel says this is nearly identical to solo air Iím thinking something is missing because solo air sucked. It had no small bump sensitivity and is the reason people were doing the whole lower psi and add tokens thing to try and get some form of sensitivity (I was one of em). This is not like that at all.

    Iíd say it feels closest to my boxxer wc (which some will say sucked Iím sure) and Iím going of memory from about a year now since I missed last DH season. But that fork once dialed and with low drag seals felt really good to me and was smoother on same trails vs Lyrik even though travel usage was about the same. It kind of makes sense to me that it would since the boxxer wc also equalized at top out but the boxxers got bigger negative chambers than single crown solo air forks since it was a dual crown and more room to work with. So newest debonair equalizes at top out and yet gain a bit bigger negative spring through the shaft sounds similar.

    Maybe I just donít prefer a super squishy beginning stroke and like it more supportive but at same time still reacts, I donít know to me itís better.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Yea Iím curious as to the graph not matching real world test. I have had this fork since 2018 with all three spring now and each has been an improvement over the other. So when the calculated feel says this is nearly identical to solo air Iím thinking something is missing because solo air sucked. It had no small bump sensitivity and is the reason people were doing the whole lower psi and add tokens thing to try and get some form of sensitivity (I was one of em). This is not like that at all.
    You're probably feeling the difference in friction between the old solo air and the 2021 debonair. If I understand correctly, those graphs are just modeling the air pressures and volumes. Besides adding more negative air, the debonair springs changed the plastic seal head for aluminum, which supposedly reduced the friction considerably by keeping things in alignment better.

    I think everyone will agree less friction is better in an air-spring. How much negative air/positive air might be more personal preference, rider weight, riding style, fork length, etc.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    Those poor Engineers at Rockshox must be incompetent. Their self-esteem must be shattered, put all that research and testing into improving their suspension. Only to have theoretical data prove them wrong!

    With the stock damper, I've noticed an improvement with the new sealhead and footnut. No negatives.
    It would be interesting to know what RSí pro athletes have inside their forks.

    The larger the negative spring, the higher the positive spring pressure required to avoid excessive sag. As such, a large negative spring should work well for more aggressive riders but could result in a fork that feels harsh on medium and large hits for regular people. Itís possible that Rockshox went a bit overboard for most mortals with the 19/20 Debonair, but I would think it would be the better system for their pros.

    Most mortals who donít hit stuff as hard and fast may be better suited to the Debonair C3.

    Itís the same way the negative chamber volume is tuneable on the Meg Neg air can. If youíre not using full travel or finding things a bit harsh, the instructions are to add volume reducers to the negative side. The largest possible negative spring isnít always the best for all riders.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    exactly! where it sits on the trailer and where it sits when you ride are two diff things.

    seems like this was a patch to address perception.

    we all want to measure our em travel dont we!
    Do you ever look down between your legs and think, 'I feel like it should be longer, pretty sure some of the length is just sucked up inside. ' Well if so, do we have the product for you...

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  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    I've done a bit more work on the model. It is still more a curiosity than an analysis of any forks existing in the real world. Still, I've wanted for a long time to move beyond spring force and spring rate and analyse the stored energy in the spring (area under the curve). That was relatively easy to do:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	desmos-graph (1).png 
Views:	61 
Size:	98.5 KB 
ID:	1329599

    Be warned it is now animated: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rghcl5bvvt

    Notes:

    • There is a pause button at the top left to stop the animation
    • You can drag a couple of settings around with drag handles on the diagram
    • The model is set up for a 170 fork with three "pretend" variations of negative chamber size, medium (32), small (22) and large (42), giving three curves
    • The curves are compensated by running different tokens in the positive: med (2), small (3), large (1)
    • Sag is for a nominal load of 1 - dotted vertical purple lines mark the intersect point where each of the curves pass 1
    • You can set (drag) the sag position for the first curve (medium) between 20% and 30%
    • The other curves are normalised (i.e. pressure adjusted by ~10%) for equal area under the Force curve (stored energy) at a point you can set (drag)
    • hint: try moving equal energy to coincide with "sag" or "bottom out" for different results
    • Sag for the small and large is calculated, but with the compensated tokens count, it more or less stays in the same place


    The upshot of all this analysis is nothing we don't already know. Springs with smaller air chambers have more of an S shape with less midstroke support.

    If we run the model again and use the same number of positive chamber tokens (2) for all sizes of negative chamber:
    • the sag positions for each spring become quite different
    • as overall energy in the springs is held to be the same, it means each spring configuration is shifting energy capacity from "above sag" to "below sag"
    • pressure normalisation for this comparison is +/-3%

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/qelwrc6fam
    Awesome post!

    Sent from my 2PZC5 using Tapatalk

  24. #224
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    really cool graphs

    can you plot the negative volume change with a different equalization point for each.

    i think this would be more informative

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegli View Post
    I'm having some analysis paralysis here... Hopefully someone can help me out! I've got a 170mm Lyrik with a Charger 2.0 in it, and the old Solo Air air spring.

    I'm trying to decide between the following
    170mm - 2020 Debonair
    180mm - 2020 Debonair
    170mm - 2021 Debonair

    I'm about 160 lbs, and ride a lot of steep technical trails, but slowly because I'm not that good. Max size drop I'd hit is about 6 to 8 feet.

    It seems, from the air spring graph, that the 2020 Debonair could provide more mid-stroke support, while still being supple at the beginning of the stroke, if you gave it a bit more pressure than used in the chart. You could compensate for the end of the travel being hard to use by removing a token. That seems like it might be the winner, based on people's assertion that the 2020 Debonair sits too low in its travel?

    Is there any point to running a 180mm spring with a bit more sag, to compensate for the lower ride height? I don't feel like I need more travel, but it seems like some people were considering that. Does that make the travel feel more like a plusher 170mm solo air spring, with less friction?
    180mm '20 Debonaire gives you the best of both worlds IMHO because ride height is similar to the 170 your bike was designed for so you keep the same handling/geometry yet you get the smoother initial stroke response and 180mm of damping when the fork unweights. Exactly what I did with my older Lyrik.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Yea Iím curious as to the graph not matching real world test. I have had this fork since 2018 with all three spring now and each has been an improvement over the other. So when the calculated feel says this is nearly identical to solo air Iím thinking something is missing because solo air sucked. It had no small bump sensitivity and is the reason people were doing the whole lower psi and add tokens thing to try and get some form of sensitivity (I was one of em). This is not like that at all.

    Iíd say it feels closest to my boxxer wc (which some will say sucked Iím sure) and Iím going of memory from about a year now since I missed last DH season. But that fork once dialed and with low drag seals felt really good to me and was smoother on same trails vs Lyrik even though travel usage was about the same. It kind of makes sense to me that it would since the boxxer wc also equalized at top out but the boxxers got bigger negative chambers than single crown solo air forks since it was a dual crown and more room to work with. So newest debonair equalizes at top out and yet gain a bit bigger negative spring through the shaft sounds similar.

    Maybe I just donít prefer a super squishy beginning stroke and like it more supportive but at same time still reacts, I donít know to me itís better.
    Have you still got your old solo air spring? If the fork has had 2 or 3 years of riding the bushings will have worn in nicely and combined with the new seal head there will be significantly less friction
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    can you plot the negative volume change with a different equalization point for each.

    i think this would be more informative
    Here you go: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/w9tcc3upuh

    The scenarios are now a table up at the top, allowing different equalisation points. You can edit in values and produce new scenarios.

    Name:  Screenshot 2020-05-04 at 21.25.50.png
Views: 834
Size:  10.0 KB

    The scenarios I've set up are like the last ones. There are medium, small and large negative chambers. Positive is compensated with tokens. The large negative chamber is offset an extra 5mm.

    The equal energy slider is set for full bottom out, which means the sag positions more or less coincide. The large negative chamber needs 20% higher pressure to achieve this. The small chamber needs 12% less. I've got those calculations in a table now:

    Name:  Screenshot 2020-05-04 at 22.03.35.png
Views: 855
Size:  14.7 KB

    The large scenario (with the 10mm offset and higher pressure) has the highest spring rate at sag (most support), and doesn't ramp up as much (most linear). However it has the same amount of total stored energy at full bottom out; because it has less area under the curve to the left of the sag position, it therefore must store more energy in compression between sag and bottom out; the spring will be harder to bottom out, but without getting rampy. The lower energy stored at sag will make the spring feel less poppy and it has more suckdown so it will have an effective pneumatic top out.

    Rockshox Debonair 2021-desmos-graph-1-.png

    These scenarios aren't pretending to be any specific Debonair version but are intended to demonstrate design possibilities.

  28. #228
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    Lot's of great info in this thread!

    I've been eyeing off the C1 spring since it was released and for the money, I thought it was a no brainer for my 2016 Pike RCT3. I got it second-hand, in really great shape, with a fresh lower service. However, the first time I let the air out of it, it stuck down on me and I became curious about it. After pulling it to pieces, I discovered a few things. I bought a 150mm travel fork but based on the existing solo air spring, it's quite clearly a 160mm spring (markings on the side of the shaft don't lie). Measuring the stanchions confirmed this. I also discovered the bumper had been put back on upside down. I don't think that'd have a major impact, but it was certainly a head scratcher. I got it all back together and the "stuck-down" condition was nicely resolved afterward.

    On my Giant Trance 3, 160mm is probably OK especially given the SX version comes with a 160 fork. However, I would prefer to keep the A-C height as closer to what a 150mm fork would give me.

    TLDR
    After reading through this thread, if I want to go to 150mm anyway, I'm stumped: Debonair 2 or 3? And to get reasonably close to 150mm, should I go 150mm or 160mm? The pricing is about 50 for a version 2 and 65 for a version 3 (in AUD), so there's really not much in it.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky_G View Post
    After reading through this thread, if I want to go to 150mm anyway, I'm stumped: Debonair 2 or 3? And to get reasonably close to 150mm, should I go 150mm or 160mm? The pricing is about 50 for a version 2 and 65 for a version 3 (in AUD), so there's really not much in it.
    I'm in the same situation as you. After doing a lot of pondering and looking at spring curves to me it seems:

    --160mm Debonair 2 would get you more midstroke support, because you can run higher pressure, and a plusher start due to more negative spring.

    --150mm Debonair 3 would get you a more "supportive" feel at the beginning of the stroke, because there's less negative air.

    I'm leaning towards sizing up 10mm and going with the Debonair 2, because I really like lots of sensitivity at the beginning of the stroke. The extra 10mm should make up for the extra sag, and keep the bike geometry.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by cegli View Post
    I'm in the same situation as you. After doing a lot of pondering and looking at spring curves to me it seems:

    --160mm Debonair 2 would get you more midstroke support, because you can run higher pressure, and a plusher start due to more negative spring.


    --150mm Debonair 3 would get you a more "supportive" feel at the beginning of the stroke, because there's less negative air.

    I'm leaning towards sizing up 10mm and going with the Debonair 2, because I really like lots of sensitivity at the beginning of the stroke. The extra 10mm should make up for the extra sag, and keep the bike geometry.
    Sizing up just to compensate for an extra sagged out beginning seems an odd route to me and will further increase the dead feel that it can have. Only one ride so far on the new but Iím glad to have some lively ness back to my front end

  31. #231
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    I went from the stock 140mm Sektor that I only rode for a couple of rides, straight to a 160mm Pike, which I think had some issues till I stripped it down and put it back together again. I'm literally going on just a few rides with it properly working to base any impressions on. I would gladly stick with what I've got and get used to how it feels before doing anything else, where it not for the desire to get my A-C down just a touch for the sake of geometry that's closer to stock.

  32. #232
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    I have a lyrik Charger 2 rc2 180mm. I weigh 68kg and have 67psi in the fork. I have ridden one time, and it feels like a new fork, I really like it.

    Sag was about 27% before and now about 20%.

    I have the same psi, and the front is noticeably higher when riding on flat terrain, and it's easier to lift the front over stuff(more supportive in the first third of the travel, so it pushes back more).

    The middle part of travel gives up travel easier so it feels as if there is more travel when riding rougher terrain(actually feel like I will be able too use some HSC now)

    The last part feels about the same, but I haven't done any bigger drops yet, so I can't say that much about it yet.

    Just wanted too give my first feeling about the new upgrade.

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

  33. #233
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    new Slayer C70 with Lyrik Ultimate. had a few rides. bike and fork are awesome. took delivery of the foot nut and seal head, insalled, had a few rides.

    prefer the higher ride, fork otherwise feels the same but uses travel a bit differently. very pleased.

  34. #234
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    I've run some experiments and created a new drawing view. I also found a shaft length error in the original drawing and fixed that.

    The experiment was pretty simple. Measure all the shafts equalised at 60psi.
    Then put a known weight on them and see how much they sag (initial rate).

    The equalisation points were really interesting, see how the seal heights are close to aligned: https://shockcraft.co.nz/media/pdfs/...%20Rev%201.PDF
    Rockshox Debonair 2021-shockcraft-debonair-comparison-rev-1.jpg

    Debonair 2 (2018 version) is almost identical in equalisation point and initial sensitivity to the Debonair 1 with Luftkappe. So just like rear suspension, the front suspension guys are trying to achieve the same result with a totally different look.

    Debonair 3. Well it barely flinched from top-out when the weight was applied. Much, much, stiffer off the top than the other 3.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  35. #235
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    whoa......

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I've run some experiments and created a new drawing view. I also found a shaft length error in the original drawing and fixed that.

    The experiment was pretty simple. Measure all the shafts equalised at 60psi.
    Then put a known weight on them and see how much they sag (initial rate).

    The equalisation points were really interesting, see how the seal heights are close to aligned: https://shockcraft.co.nz/media/pdfs/...%20Rev%201.PDF
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Shockcraft Debonair Comparison - Rev 1.jpg 
Views:	295 
Size:	252.6 KB 
ID:	1333131

    Debonair 2 (2018 version) is almost identical in equalisation point and initial sensitivity to the Debonair 1 with Luftkappe. So just like rear suspension, the front suspension guys are trying to achieve the same result with a totally different look.

    Debonair 3. Well it barely flinched from top-out when the weight was applied. Much, much, stiffer off the top than the other 3.
    interesting but kind of odd too since I don't really think debonair 2 (2018) rode the same as the luftkappe although I have limited time on a luftkappe but even Vorsprung I think was saying they don't ride the same. And according to your findings the new spring should be the same as the original and again I can say they do not ride the same as more are also reporting in this post that it isn't harsh and its looking like more are preferring it than not. I for one am liking it, it has brought back a lot of the playfulness I had lost and yet it isn't stiff or harsh feeling.

  37. #237
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    So, if I want to change my Lyrik from 160 to 170 mm and I don't care about the few eaten mm, I'm way better off with the Debonair 2 than the 3, right ?

    The Lyrik of my previous bike had the Debonair 2 and I loved how it felt, the suppleness, the support. Didn't think about it at all when I was riding.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I've run some experiments and created a new drawing view. I also found a shaft length error in the original drawing and fixed that.

    The experiment was pretty simple. Measure all the shafts equalised at 60psi.
    Then put a known weight on them and see how much they sag (initial rate).

    The equalisation points were really interesting, see how the seal heights are close to aligned: https://shockcraft.co.nz/media/pdfs/...%20Rev%201.PDF
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Shockcraft Debonair Comparison - Rev 1.jpg 
Views:	295 
Size:	252.6 KB 
ID:	1333131

    Debonair 2 (2018 version) is almost identical in equalisation point and initial sensitivity to the Debonair 1 with Luftkappe. So just like rear suspension, the front suspension guys are trying to achieve the same result with a totally different look.

    Debonair 3. Well it barely flinched from top-out when the weight was applied. Much, much, stiffer off the top than the other 3.
    Your corrections confirm what the mathematical modelling was telling me. Equalisation should be with the seals in about the same place relative to the dimple.

    From your diagram, it looks like Debonair 3 is loading up the bump stop. That may imply a different topout characteristic - maybe a bit poppier/livelier

    My take: you can finagle the pressures and volumes on these things pretty much to match but... you should think about raising your bar height on Debonair 2 vs lowering it on Debonair 3. If you don't like the topout on Debonair 3, you might fancy a Debonair 2 with 10mm more travel.

    It does appear that all setup is compromise. I wonder where I've heard that before.

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    interesting but kind of odd too since I don't really think debonair 2 (2018) rode the same as the luftkappe although I have limited time on a luftkappe but even Vorsprung I think was saying they don't ride the same. And according to your findings the new spring should be the same as the original and again I can say they do not ride the same as more are also reporting in this post that it isn't harsh and its looking like more are preferring it than not. I for one am liking it, it has brought back a lot of the playfulness I had lost and yet it isn't stiff or harsh feeling.
    You're reading words that aren't there. This test was only about equalisation and preload (sensitivity off the top). Not the whole curve. I haven't said anything about how they ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetichon View Post
    So, if I want to change my Lyrik from 160 to 170 mm and I don't care about the few eaten mm, I'm way better off with the Debonair 2 than the 3, right ?

    The Lyrik of my previous bike had the Debonair 2 and I loved how it felt, the suppleness, the support. Didn't think about it at all when I was riding.
    Yes I think the Debonair 2 feels a lot better off the top. But if you have a heavy E-bike.........

    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Your corrections confirm what the mathematical modelling was telling me. Equalisation should be with the seals in about the same place relative to the dimple.

    From your diagram, it looks like Debonair 3 is loading up the bump stop. That may imply a different topout characteristic - maybe a bit poppier/livelier

    My take: you can finagle the pressures and volumes on these things pretty much to match but... you should think about raising your bar height on Debonair 2 vs lowering it on Debonair 3. If you don't like the topout on Debonair 3, you might fancy a Debonair 2 with 10mm more travel.

    It does appear that all setup is compromise. I wonder where I've heard that before.
    Yes huge preload in the Debonair 3. It is clear that the Deb 3 would extend until the seal was level with the others if it could. But the top-out bumper stops it and this is the preload. I still think that poppyness is more about damper than air spring. But either being wrong can mess it up.

    Also. The revised drawing shows you should be able to run the Debonair 3 shaft foot (+8mm) on the Debonair 2 shaft without eating anything.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  40. #240
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    Kinda seems like just the new shaft foot on a D2 spring is the best way to reclaim travel without a preloaded top out.

    Great analysis Dougal.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Kinda seems like just the new shaft foot on a D2 spring is the best way to reclaim travel without a preloaded top out.

    Great analysis Dougal.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
    I thought I saw warning from Rockshox, not to install the new footnut with the D2 seal head? Something about causing damage?

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I've run some experiments and created a new drawing view. I also found a shaft length error in the original drawing and fixed that.

    The experiment was pretty simple. Measure all the shafts equalised at 60psi.
    Then put a known weight on them and see how much they sag (initial rate).
    how much pressure would you have to put in to the luftkappe to get the same results as the Deb3 air spring.

    Are people thinking their forks are better because their original set up was poor?

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    how much pressure would you have to put in to the luftkappe to get the same results as the Deb3 air spring.

    Are people thinking their forks are better because their original set up was poor?
    Luftkappe goes to zero preload so it's never going to feel the same off the top. No matter how much pressure it gets. I haven't checked full compression ratios and spring curves yet.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  44. #244
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    I've had a couple of rides with the D3 and it is an improvement over the D2, when using a runt. Fork is a Lyrik RC 2.1 170.
    When I started off with the Lyrik I had no runt and D2. I had to use about 95psi to get the support early/mid stroke. This setup wasn't bad but I felt it could be improved. Then I swapped over to the runt when using the D2 and found that keeping the 2:1 ratio between H/L chambers was way too progressive when I was using enough pressure to avoid blowing through the initial travel.Fast forward to now with D3 and runt, I'm running 140/70 psi H/L and it's feeling really good. Lots of mid stroke support,reasonably supple early travel. Weight 75kg, most of the riding I do is on very rocky trails.
    Last edited by fresh tracks; 05-16-2020 at 03:30 AM. Reason: added more info

  45. #245
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    I couldnít help myself and put in a Debonair C1 during a lowers service this week. As a starting point, I dropped 5 psi and flipped a 5 mm headset spacer to lower the bars. I left compression damping settings the same (Charger 2 RC2 - HSC full open, LSC somewhere in the middle). I stayed with 1 token at the 170 mm travel.

    The fork most definitely rides with less sag and feels more reluctant to move. Itís mostly noticeable at very low speeds, where the fork feels firmer over roots and rocks. At high speeds, the fork feels like it sucks up small bumps just fine, but feels more Ďsportyí than the Debonair 2, which I would describe as more plush feeling. I do like the extra support in corners, and the bike rides a bit more predictably since the bars stay closer to their static height. On bigger hits, the high pressures I had to run with the Debonair 2 made things feel a bit harsh, whereas I feel like the Debonair C1 transmits a bit less feedback deeper in its travel.

    Overall, I am a bit surprised RS moved in this direction, since I would think plush, compliant forks are what the people want. I do think the new air spring has some benefits (and drawbacks) over the previous one, but it is a very different feeling fork now.

  46. #246
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    Having any suspension with a lot of preloaded top out is almost never the best solution. All it does is add harshness everytime your wheel leaves the ground.
    Rockshox could and should have kept the air top out and changed the spring curve to whatever they wanted to. They could have given you a slightly longer shaft so that no "travel" was lost.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graveltattoo View Post
    I thought I saw warning from Rockshox, not to install the new footnut with the D2 seal head? Something about causing damage?
    Has anyone verified? It should be as easy as installing and compressing the fork all the way. I m guessing you will only pick up problems if running more than 2 tokens..
    I should get my D3 Thursday.
    TIP OF AFRICA

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosbefok View Post
    Has anyone verified? It should be as easy as installing and compressing the fork all the way. I m guessing you will only pick up problems if running more than 2 tokens..
    I should get my D3 Thursday.
    It's more to do with the footnote hitting the seal head at full compression I believe.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    It's more to do with the footnote hitting the seal head at full compression I believe.
    I donít see why the longer D3 red foot nut would have any impact on that. Youíre adding length to the bottom of the foot nut, but the air shaft (sliding surface) above it has not changed in length.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    I donít see why the longer D3 red foot nut would have any impact on that. Youíre adding length to the bottom of the foot nut, but the air shaft (sliding surface) above it has not changed in length.
    The whole airshaft has moved up in the fork using the new foot bolt and the seal head on the C1 has been altered to account for this, the other version it hasn't.

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    The whole airshaft has moved up in the fork using the new foot bolt and the seal head on the C1 has been altered to account for this, the other version it hasn't.
    I see that now.

    So what is meant to contact first when a fork bottoms out? Is it the stanchions bumping against something in the lowers?

  52. #252
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    anybody here on 160 pike with the upgrade to give some feedback.

    my pike is fine but the idea of running my pike higher int the travel looks perfect

  53. #253
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    ELIF5 - If I am happy with 85 PSI (12 over recommended) and 1 volume spacer with the 2020 ultimate, should I run the same settings with new air shaft?

    Wanting to give it a shot since its so cheap to try

  54. #254
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    Installed the new C1 DebonAir Spring into my 160mm Lyrik Ultimate with a Push HC97. Having read these observations, I was curious to see if the performance was a step back. I had liked the supple feeling of the B1 DebonAir and was thinking id likely end up switching back to it.

    Over all I was rather pleasantly surprised. I feel it was improved the feel of my fork with my settings. There is a slight reduction in plushness off the top. I can feel this while riding more in the smaller hits, but its not a very large reduction and something I can live with (Note this was with the same Air Pressure/Tokens as the B1 DA spring) In addition, It feels more controlled in the mid part of the travel with less of a "divey" feel. Backed off a few clicks on the LSC and this helped with that initial decrease in plushness.

    Then tried reducing air pressure slightly and adding back a few LSC clicks, and feel Ive found near the sweet spot. More plush (Not B1 Level but very close) but feels more supportive in the mid stroke, I can certainly feel the fork riding higher (which I found I like). Im running 2 tokens and this gives good bottom out resistance, may trying cutting down a spacer, then trying with 1.5 and then 1 spacer. I feel 1.5 will be my sweet spot.

    Overall I like this change. Trade-offs compared to the B1 but for my riding I prefer it. If it was on a longer travel fork (180mm) that I was riding predominately more gravity focused such as bike parks or DH, Id stay with the B1. For my riding in Australia, I like the C1 and will keep it.

    Will give some more feedback when I try the different spacer combinations.

  55. #255
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    i have a 170mm travel Ultimate with the new bits installed. 1 token and 1 Nepos air salmon sponge.

    wondering what others use for tokens. i'm about 220 in full riding kit. consistently using 150 travel, rarely dipping into the last bit. loving the set up so far. would expect to use full travel on a hard front end impact that would be on the edge of control but haven't done so yet in the few weeks i've owned the fork.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
    I see that now.

    So what is meant to contact first when a fork bottoms out? Is it the stanchions bumping against something in the lowers?
    There are bottom it bumpers in the bottom of the lowers that hit the stanchion.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by cunningstunts View Post
    i have a 170mm travel Ultimate with the new bits installed. 1 token and 1 Nepos air salmon sponge.

    wondering what others use for tokens. i'm about 220 in full riding kit. consistently using 150 travel, rarely dipping into the last bit. loving the set up so far. would expect to use full travel on a hard front end impact that would be on the edge of control but haven't done so yet in the few weeks i've owned the fork.
    1 Rockshox token feels good to me with my 170 Lyrik. I still only use full travel on the biggest of hits. 2 tokens left quite a bit of travel on the table.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by cunningstunts View Post
    i have a 170mm travel Ultimate with the new bits installed. 1 token and 1 Nepos air salmon sponge.

    wondering what others use for tokens. i'm about 220 in full riding kit. consistently using 150 travel, rarely dipping into the last bit. loving the set up so far. would expect to use full travel on a hard front end impact that would be on the edge of control but haven't done so yet in the few weeks i've owned the fork.
    So far Iíve tried my 170 Lyrik with one token at 75psi and 70psi (180lbs rider fully geared). So at 75 I like the support on steep stuff but itís way hard to use travel and feels a bit harsh in rough like Iím hitting a wall of progression and then just stops, at 70psi the ride is smoother but I loose some of the playful character I had gained going to the new spring (still better than old but I think I like the 75 character more). 75psi brings me to 20% sag and 70psi brings me to 25% so I could go either way. Next will be trying 75psi with no tokens and see if that gives me the support without the ramping. All in all I prefer it over the old but just need to find the balance I want.

  59. #259
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    Somebody tried the new airshaft +20mm with an 20mm spacer already? With separate air valve because its above dimple.

    - pressure of negative chamber can be tuned
    - better lubrication of air chamber because it doesnt drop down into casting
    - more sensible beginning stroke
    - more progression

  60. #260
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    - I want 160mm of travel on my Lyrik
    - I've currently got a DSD Runt and V2 Debonair airshaft installed

    I have a V1 Debonair airshaft with 160 or 170 options - I'd prefer to find a way to run the V1 with the red alloy V2 baseplate

    (Anthony at DSD recommended the V1 air shaft because the quad ring seal sits closer to the dimple than the V2 Debonair)

    Or should I just pay the $25 and get the V3 foot nut and seal head for my 160 V2 shaft, knowing I can tune small bump and mid stroke through the DSD Runt?
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    - I want 160mm of travel on my Lyrik
    - I've currently got a DSD Runt and V2 Debonair airshaft installed

    I have a V1 Debonair airshaft with 160 or 170 options - I'd prefer to find a way to run the V1 with the red alloy V2 baseplate

    (Anthony at DSD recommended the V1 air shaft because the quad ring seal sits closer to the dimple than the V2 Debonair)

    Or should I just pay the $25 and get the V3 foot nut and seal head for my 160 V2 shaft, knowing I can tune small bump and mid stroke through the DSD Runt?
    I have the DSD runt in a 170 lyrik, now with V3. Much prefer it over the V2. Never tried the V1. V2 gave me issues - to get the support early in the stroke, I had to run higher pressure than I wanted, which caused too much progression later in the stroke at anywhere near 2:1 H/L ratios in the runt. I'd just get the V3, works well

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    I have the DSD runt in a 170 lyrik, now with V3. Much prefer it over the V2. Never tried the V1. V2 gave me issues - to get the support early in the stroke, I had to run higher pressure than I wanted, which caused too much progression later in the stroke at anywhere near 2:1 H/L ratios in the runt. I'd just get the V3, works well
    Welp. That's about all I needed. Thanks!
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    I have the DSD runt in a 170 lyrik, now with V3. Much prefer it over the V2. Never tried the V1. V2 gave me issues - to get the support early in the stroke, I had to run higher pressure than I wanted, which caused too much progression later in the stroke at anywhere near 2:1 H/L ratios in the runt. I'd just get the V3, works well
    out of interest what is your weight?

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    out of interest what is your weight?
    75kg.

  65. #265
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    Installed the new seal head / foot nut on a 2020 lyrik ultimate. I am pretty sold on the new version. Weight 155 pounds.

    I dont notice it being any rougher, enjoy how it uses the travel more now. handlebars seem noticeably higher. Might drop a spacer there.

  66. #266
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    Just got back from Moab and did some pretty gnarley riding on the new air spring and a 2.1 charger damper (upgraded yari). I definitely used all 170mm of travel at times and I am glad I had the extra 5-10mm provided as Moab is rough terrain.

  67. #267
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    just installed latest debonair shaft on my 160 pike
    im 80kg not much of a jumper.

    almost 10 psi less than before to make 25-27% sag, 1 token, 6 click rebound, and 3 clicks lsc from fully open.

    first ride on steep and smooth terrain was great, the second ride on really fast rocky trails and the suspension feels very stiff like it did not absorb the bigger rocks, kicks, and ramps to fast and not in control (before was buttery smooth)

    any suggestions

  68. #268
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    Put old shaft back in?

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuno Machuqueiro View Post
    just installed latest debonair shaft on my 160 pike
    im 80kg not much of a jumper.

    almost 10 psi less than before to make 25-27% sag, 1 token, 6 click rebound, and 3 clicks lsc from fully open.

    first ride on steep and smooth terrain was great, the second ride on really fast rocky trails and the suspension feels very stiff like it did not absorb the bigger rocks, kicks, and ramps to fast and not in control (before was buttery smooth)

    any suggestions
    Because the negative air spring is smaller you don't need as much air. The downside to this is you need more force to move the positive spring which is why is "stays higher" in its travel and doesn't react as well over small bumps. But the upside is that when your bike is leaning against a wall it will won't sag a few mm.

  70. #270
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    the less mm with the "old" shaft don't bother me.
    and love the "rides much higher" of the new one, it feels a confidence booster on steeper terrain.

    maybe with zero tokens and maybe a less slower rebound will improve!

  71. #271
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    Newest spring has more hollow mid stroke and easier to bottom. Generally it should absorb better big bumps. Older has extremely soft begining and then super supprtive mid and end.

  72. #272
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    Has anyone actually run Deb 3 nut on a Deb 2 airshaft
    Same experience many above with deb 3
    Pro
    Rode high
    Neg
    Harsh even with less psi and less lsc
    Blow through travel
    Not as plush off the top and less ramp up

    options
    put deb 2 back in
    try deb 3 with even less psi and one more token so 3
    try deb 2 with deb 3 nut just want to make sure not going to cause problems
    150 pike ultimate

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    I have the DSD runt in a 170 lyrik, now with V3. Much prefer it over the V2. Never tried the V1. V2 gave me issues - to get the support early in the stroke, I had to run higher pressure than I wanted, which caused too much progression later in the stroke at anywhere near 2:1 H/L ratios in the runt. I'd just get the V3, works well
    1 ride review on my 2019 Runt'd Lyric (with DSD compression tune) + V3 160mm DebonAir

    I like it. Agree with you that the Runt plays better with the V3. Like you, previously I was not able to run 2:1 H/L ratios. (Something like 1.6-1.7:1)

    Tonight's ride (lots of mid/trail speed square edged New Mexico chunky rock) was at 75/150, but will try it bumped up 2-3 PSI.

    Felt super smooth.
    Ride height is noticeable.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by paris View Post
    Has anyone actually run Deb 3 nut on a Deb 2 airshaft
    Same experience many above with deb 3
    Pro
    Rode high
    Neg
    Harsh even with less psi and less lsc
    Blow through travel
    Not as plush off the top and less ramp up

    options
    put deb 2 back in
    try deb 3 with even less psi and one more token so 3
    try deb 2 with deb 3 nut just want to make sure not going to cause problems
    150 pike ultimate
    I have a 2016 Pike (140mm) with Luftkappe and I've been wondering whether I should try Deb3 but reading these kind of comments makes me want to forget the whole thing :-D

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    I have the DSD runt in a 170 lyrik, now with V3. Much prefer it over the V2. Never tried the V1. V2 gave me issues - to get the support early in the stroke, I had to run higher pressure than I wanted, which caused too much progression later in the stroke at anywhere near 2:1 H/L ratios in the runt. I'd just get the V3, works well
    I'm roughly 79kg. I have a 140mm Pike with the Runt. Like you, I could never run it at the recommended 2:1 ratio. I had to run way less psi in the H. Otherwise it would ramp up way too hard.

    After installing the Debonair v3, I could get close to 2:1. But had to run waaaay less air in the L and H to get anywhere close to 25-30% sag. 45psi in the L and 105psi in the H gave me 25%! I thought I maybe messed something up during my shaft swap. So I did a complete rebuild. Nope, same thing. Plus the Runt just felt like shit with the new shaft now no matter what I did.

    I put back in the normal air cap with one token. For my weight, Rockshox recommends ̶9̶3̶p̶s̶i̶ 88psi for the new air shaft. That gave my like 8% sag :-/ I am down to 72psi now and 25% sag. Feels pretty good now, and the ride height is much better, but still harsher off the top than before. In a normal ride, I use about 80% of my travel. On a really big hit, or **** up on my end, and I get full travel.

    I have a 150mm v2 shaft that I bought right before they announced v3. I may put that in and see what it does, cause I like the suppleness of v2, but the ride height of v3.

  76. #276
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    mines for sale is anyone wants it
    pike 150 deb 3, went back to the 2

  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by squasher View Post
    After installing the Debonair v3, I could get close to 2:1. But had to run waaaay less air in the L and H to get anywhere close to 25-30% sag.
    I'll be honest, since installing the Runt last October, I haven't ever checked sag. I just set the recommended low pressure and went for it. Now you're going to make me walk out and check sag on my Lyrik as I have no idea where 75/150 puts me... other than it's sooo supple I wouldn't mind trying an additional 2-3PSI in the low side.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  78. #278
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    Just installed the new debonair in my new 2020 pike ultimate 140, I used the push rebuild kit with their wipers and motorex 10wt oil.

    I actually only got one ride with the old debonair on a mellow trail and I had too much air pressure so i cant really compare the two, but i've had a bit of time on a 2018 pike 140 with a hc97, and a ton of time on my 2017 lyrik 160 with luftkappe.

    I'm 175-180 kitted up, started with 79 psi, 1 token, LSC and HSC fully open, rebound 5 clicks from fully open.
    First impressions seem along the lines of what others are saying, a bit harsh off the top, but good mid stroke support. The first trail i rode has a lot of medium/slow speed chunky, big square edge rocks low traction gravel/marbels. I wasnt too stoked on it there, compared to my lyrik(i know probably an unfair comparison) it felt like the fork just wasnt active, felt bouncy, especially at slower (bike not suspension) speeds.

    On my lyrik in those sections where you're doing maybe 5 mph, so pretty slow, technical slow corners, and dealing with lots of 6" to 20" tall rocks, with loose gravel littering everything else, it feels like you hit those big rocks and the wheel just sucks up out of the way, rolls down the backside, pretty minimal feedback through the bars for how rough it is, basically it tracks all the undulations very well, stays composed and ready.

    The pike seemed like you hit those same rocks and rather than the wheel sucking up out of the way, the whole front end bounced up, if there were multiple repeated big but slow speed hits it would lose its composure on the first and be nowhere near ready for the second hit, which made it super sketchy with everything in between being super low traction gravel. To be fair though that 2018 pike/hc97 after being dialed in well felt about the same there.

    Next trail was mostly high speed, medium chunky rocks and dry roots, mostly loose over hardpack and some fine gravel, and i went to 1 click from open on LSC, fully open HSC, and 6 clicks from full open rebound.
    It felt MUCH better here than the old pike/hc97. in some ways better than my 160 lyrik. didnt feel harsh initially on high speed repeated chunky hits sectons, like that first 30-50% of travel was super active, but didnt use more travel than it needed so it was always ready for the next hit, super efficient with its travel. mid stroke support was awesome, better than the lyrik, you could push on the front without it diving and it would remain active.

    one section in particular, a high speed rough off camber rock around a slight corner, the best line is to
    stay as high as possible. to do that you need to maintain good front traction and really stay over the front, otherwise you lose the front pretty easy, usually on my lyrik and what should be a more capable bike. Ill hit that rock and the fork dives and kind of hangs up, feels sketchy but it'll still make it. First time through on the pike, being pretty heavy over the front, almost no dive, took the small impacts, and on top of that i had enough traction and confidence in the front to push off the front to "hop" up an over the rest of that. was pretty damn impressed.

    Slow speed corners/sections on that trail though it went back to how it felt on the previous trail, got bounced/knocked around, felt sketchy and unpredictable.

    I also had about 3mm of unused travel, which on a 140 i think using all the travel on those trails is appropriate. so air pressure seems at least very close. If I could fix this low speed tech terribleness Id be super happy with it.

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by SA77 View Post
    If I could fix this low speed tech terribleness Id be super happy with it.
    That seems to be the consensus from everything I've read. At speed, mine feels pretty good too. You being 180, https://trailhead.rockshox.com/ recommends 90psi. Mine was 88, I was wrong above. But you running 79 and me 72, at least we are on par for what feels right for us. 88psi was ridiculously stiff.

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by squasher View Post
    That seems to be the consensus from everything I've read. At speed, mine feels pretty good too. You being 180, https://trailhead.rockshox.com/ recommends 90psi. Mine was 88, I was wrong above. But you running 79 and me 72, at least we are on par for what feels right for us. 88psi was ridiculously stiff.
    Yeah I just went off what I ran with 1 token on my old pike. With how much support I felt I had I donít see a reason to run more. Id almost go less if anything. Only thing I could potentially see happening with running (apparently) pretty low pressure, on those slow speed techy trails, is maybe the fork is using up its travel immediately, hits the ramp up and THEN thatís the bounce off the hit that im feeling. But I really doubt that.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by SA77 View Post
    maybe the fork is using up its travel immediately, hits the ramp up and THEN thatís the bounce off the hit that im feeling. But I really doubt that.
    I would think you would feel the fork dive really hard if that was the case. But if you think that may be happening, slower rebound would solve that. But then you run the risk of it packing up on higher speeds.

    I'm pretty much over Rockshox. If we get a 2nd round of stimulus checks, Ohlins here I come, lol.

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by squasher View Post
    After installing the Debonair v3, I could get close to 2:1. But had to run waaaay less air in the L and H to get anywhere close to 25-30% sag. 45psi in the L and 105psi in the H gave me 25%! I thought I maybe messed something up during my shaft swap. So I did a complete rebuild. Nope, same thing. Plus the Runt just felt like shit with the new shaft now no matter what I did.
    Do you reckon the runt is not a good upgrade on shorter travel forks? On 170mm travel it supports the mid-stroke really well. Sag - rockshox recommends 70psi for my weight and travel. I've ended up within 1psi of that recommendation and getting ~ 20% sag standing on the pedals. V3 initial travel probably every so slightly harsher at low speed. On rough trails at high speed, I don't notice it and mid travel is about right and I'm using about 85% of travel outside of "oh shit" moments.
    Compared to my son's 36 at 160 travel with MRP ramp + airspring mod (separate pos and neg air - 64psi in pos, 68psi in neg, 3ml of oil sitting on top of piston for great lubrication), his is super supple off the top without being divey. My Lyrik can't compare with that.

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    Do you reckon the runt is not a good upgrade on shorter travel forks? On 170mm travel it supports the mid-stroke really well. Sag - rockshox recommends 70psi for my weight and travel. I've ended up within 1psi of that recommendation and getting ~ 20% sag standing on the pedals. V3 initial travel probably every so slightly harsher at low speed. On rough trails at high speed, I don't notice it and mid travel is about right and I'm using about 85% of travel outside of "oh shit" moments.
    Compared to my son's 36 at 160 travel with MRP ramp + airspring mod (separate pos and neg air - 64psi in pos, 68psi in neg, 3ml of oil sitting on top of piston for great lubrication), his is super supple off the top without being divey. My Lyrik can't compare with that.
    To be honest. I have no idea if it works better on longer travel forks. I just know that with the v2 shaft, it was very supple off the top. I would roll over a 2 inch root and barely feel it. With v3, I can definitely feel that same root a lot more. And no matter what I do, I can't get that suppleness back. With the stock air cap, it's a lot better than the runt, but still not as supple as v2. Only reason I'm keeping v3 for now is I really like the ride height.

    I'll probably wind up putting in the 150mm v2 I have during my next lower service. Won't be able to use the runt though.

  84. #284
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    For me no luck with this upgrade.
    84 kg 160mm A1 pike

    after my 3 ride, 0 token, 25+/- sag. more rebound, from 0 lsc to 4 lsc and NO
    at high speed the fork bounces and kicks hard at the first bigger stone
    will miss the ride height, but going back to db2
    for steep and smooth trails its 5 star upgrade
    in my case for fast, rocky and square edge no.


    at least my pike gets 2 maintenance in less than a month

    almost forgot! hand pain start again with db3

  85. #285
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    This comments about new spring are so confusing, some love it, some hate it. Its really hard for me as I am looking to change my Fox 34 with Pike/Lyrik. I need 140mm of travel and ride height to keep geo intact. Found new Lyriks with B1 debonair/150mm for same price as new C1 Pike's with 140mm. Weight difference is 150g so it does not matter to me. What should I go with?

  86. #286
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    standart Pike is a realy realy great fork
    just get a standard one
    and enjoy the ride

  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuno Machuqueiro View Post
    standart Pike is a realy realy great fork
    just get a standard one
    and enjoy the ride
    There is no such thing as a "standard" Pike. They come in different configurations and model years. From my experience with a 2019 Pike RCT3, no, it is not a really great fork.

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  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaksK View Post
    This comments about new spring are so confusing, some love it, some hate it. Its really hard for me as I am looking to change my Fox 34 with Pike/Lyrik. I need 140mm of travel and ride height to keep geo intact. Found new Lyriks with B1 debonair/150mm for same price as new C1 Pike's with 140mm. Weight difference is 150g so it does not matter to me. What should I go with?
    I'm pretty convinced that most of the "25% sag gang" are making failure with this new spring a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    If you ran Deb2 and Deb3 back to back at the same air pressures but swapped a spacer out from under your stem you would be much closer to holding all things equal between the two.

    The point is that the air pressure *is* the spring behaviour nearasdammit (tm). The positive chamber is exactly the same. The negative is smaller, yes, but in the greater scheme of things it is a big fat "so what". Instead of a pneumatic topout, the bumpstop comes into play.

    If you drop 10-20psi to get your sag back to a nominal 25% you have completely buggered up the air spring characteristic because... ghost of @Dougal whispers in my ear... you need to set up for support, not sag.

    So instead, move a headset spacer. Your brain will feel like the sag is lower even though it is higher. Into the bargain you will now have a slacker head tube angle. Support will be where it should be. You'll then have a sporting chance of forming a subjective opinion on whether you really value pneumatic topout over the action of a bumpstop.

    [It is a slow day in lockdown and my furlough beard is beginning to itch]

  89. #289
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    It sounds like many are reducing pressure to reduce harshness bear top of stroke, more than to change bar height.

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  90. #290
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    in my case,
    tried different air pressure, to 1 token to zero token, from 0 to my 6 lsc, from under the stem spacer to above the stem spacers 12,5 mm change.

    nothing works

    the only thing that hi didn't do to my pike was a charger bleed. because its good.

  91. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    It sounds like many are reducing pressure to reduce harshness bear top of stroke, more than to change bar height.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
    This ^ ^

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    I just replaced the old debonair with the new one and I've got a very odd feeling from my forks.

    When I compress them hard I can feel a dull vibration through the bars and a bit more resistance/ stickyness in the forks? Slow compression seems ok.

    Off the top its not as supple but I was expecting that.

    I installed the prior debonair with no issues. Did the same procedure for this one. Used slickoleum to lube o-rings on the seals, light lube on the shaft, lubed 150mm inside the stanchions using smooth plastic pipe, replaced foam rings and seals, soaked rings and lubed inside of seals, put the airspring back in, circlip clicked into position and oriented correctly. 10cc of 0-30 on each side of the lowers (Lyriks).

    No pressure loss over 24 hours in the garage.

    Anyone experienced these symptoms in a fork before?

  93. #293
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    Yes, take the seal head off and make sure itís got plenty of grease on it.

  94. #294
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    same here (sram grease + drops of 0/30w)
    after 2ļ ride it disappear

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    I just added the 2021 spring to my 2016 Pike A2 with the solo air spring. Also took the opportunity to increase travel from 130 to 150 on my Intense Spider.

    Iím not a suspension guru or anything close, but this upgrade is fantastic. I decreased my air pressure by about 10 psi and added a token(using 2 now). The initial stroke is so much better, Iím just able to rip through chunder. My lines have changed because I know I can just float over the small/medium chunk at speed.

    If anyone is still running an old solo air I strongly recommend the upgrade. Itís like a new bike and well worth it.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuno Machuqueiro View Post
    same here (sram grease + drops of 0/30w)
    after 2ļ ride it disappear
    Drops of 0-30 where?

    On page 16 of the SRAM guide it says:
    RockShox Dynamic Seal Grease only: If RockShox Dynamic SealGrease was applied to the piston seal, inject or pour RockShoxsuspension oil into the air spring upper tube (3ml).

    I've never before seen instructions to add fluid to the uppers of the air side.


    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    Yes, take the seal head off and make sure itís got plenty of grease on it.
    Hmm I was pretty generous with it already. I guess I'll top it up.
    Liberal grease on the shaft too?

  97. #297
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    on assembly a few drops 2 or 3 on negative and a few on the positive chamber
    doing this for last 4 maintenances and its fine
    plus some oil in the orings before applying the grease.

    not on the manual but theres a SRAM Germany (think!) video doing this.

  98. #298
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    Converted both my 2020 130mm pike and 170mm lyrik today to the new air spring. As instructed I kept the same pressure and settings on the lyrik and dropped 4ish psi on the pike.

    Initial impressions riding around the block and jumping some curbs.

    I can definitely notice the higher ride height. I like that and see it being a benefit for the loose/rocky terrain here. I donít plan on dropping any spacers. The other thing I noticed was how much better it felt while sprinting over the front. Previously both forks would dive hard into the travel, but it felt much more stable with the new air spring. I can accept a little more initial feedback as trade off.

    I will get in some park days this upcoming week and see how it feels there.


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    So I pulled the air spring out. Both seals were well lubed.

    One thing I noticed is that the debonair seal head was quite hard to move up and down the shaft, even after the shaft was lightly greased.

    I added a few drops of 0-30 onto the shaft plus some more slickoleum and cycled the seal head up and down the shaft about 20 times and its smoother.

    Also added 3ml of 0-30 to the top of the air spring side.

    Re-assembled and it feels smoother.
    On the first assembly and test, I didn't hear the air chambers equalize. This time I did. Never noticed it with forks before, only rear shocks.

    One odd thing is that I can feel light points of resistance on the shaft through the seal head when cycling it up. Did the same for the old spring and it felt similar.
    I guess when pushing the seal head down, I'm not applying equal force with both fingers so it could be pushing down on a fraction of an angle.

    Anyways, thanks for the tips!

  100. #300
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    I have just ordered 2021 Pike's Ultimate 140mm and "old" B1 150mm air spring to go along so I will have both at hand to decide which is better. Btw, can you take foot nut and seal head from B1 to C1 so I have 140mm & 150mm to try in both configurations?

    My thinking is that a properly sprung fork/shock should sit into its travel under the weight of the bike. Think of a carís suspension? You wouldnít like the ride if it sat at the top of itís travel. Another way to think of it is that you gain a hell of lot more confidence when stiction is easily broken and wheel is in contact with the trail. A higher sitting fork means itís taking more force to keep the wheel down and planted.

    I would say reduced negative air chamber in the new setup is more noticeable on short travel setups.

  101. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaksK View Post
    My thinking is that a properly sprung fork/shock should sit into its travel under the weight of the bike. Think of a carís suspension? You wouldnít like the ride if it sat at the top of itís travel. Another way to think of it is that you gain a hell of lot more confidence when stiction is easily broken and wheel is in contact with the trail. A higher sitting fork means itís taking more force to keep the wheel down and planted.
    All forks will sag a bit into their travel when the bike is unloaded, but keep in mind that a car weighs easily ten times as much as its driver whereas a bike weighs three to eight times less than its rider. If the ~30lbs of a bikeís sprung weight compresses the fork more than a few percent, then either the spring rate is so light that itíll have an unusably high sag when ridden or the spring rate is so progressive that the rider will only be able to use a small portion of the travel regardless of terrain.

    A better comparison would be the leaf springs on a trailer, which donít noticeably compress under the chassis's weight because theyíre sprung to handle significantly higher loads.

  102. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkdbboy View Post
    So I pulled the air spring out. Both seals were well lubed.

    One thing I noticed is that the debonair seal head was quite hard to move up and down the shaft, even after the shaft was lightly greased.

    I added a few drops of 0-30 onto the shaft plus some more slickoleum and cycled the seal head up and down the shaft about 20 times and its smoother.

    Also added 3ml of 0-30 to the top of the air spring side.

    Re-assembled and it feels smoother.
    On the first assembly and test, I didn't hear the air chambers equalize. This time I did. Never noticed it with forks before, only rear shocks.

    One odd thing is that I can feel light points of resistance on the shaft through the seal head when cycling it up. Did the same for the old spring and it felt similar.
    I guess when pushing the seal head down, I'm not applying equal force with both fingers so it could be pushing down on a fraction of an angle.

    Anyways, thanks for the tips!
    Damn now i feel like I didnt quite reassemble my fork as well as i could have. The guide i was going off didnt mention anything about greasing the 150mm inside of the air spring side of the upper tube. I used plenty of grease on the air spring seal head but cant be near enough after looking at the proper rock shox guide.

    So since im re-doing it anyway.. can someone link me to the appropriate guide to follow? im not seeing anything about adding oil to the air spring uppers in this guide..

    https://www.servicearchive.sram.com/..._english_0.pdf

  103. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by SA77 View Post
    Damn now i feel like I didnt quite reassemble my fork as well as i could have. The guide i was going off didnt mention anything about greasing the 150mm inside of the air spring side of the upper tube. I used plenty of grease on the air spring seal head but cant be near enough after looking at the proper rock shox guide.

    So since im re-doing it anyway.. can someone link me to the appropriate guide to follow? im not seeing anything about adding oil to the air spring uppers in this guide..

    https://www.servicearchive.sram.com/..._english_0.pdf
    If your fork isnít feeling draggy like the person who needed to regrease theirs, I am guessing yours is ok. Did you wipe out all of the old grease that was in the stanchion?


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  104. #304
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    yeah i wiped and cleaned it, then didnt add any grease at all after that. so the only grease inside the upper tube is what i put on the airspring seal.

    Im just wondering if that plus not putting any oil into the top of the airspring side might part of the slow speed harshness im feeling. on the air spring i only greased the shaft, and both seals/o rings. sounds like i could add a few drops of oil between both seals as well?

    I also barely used any grease to the wiper seals, basically applied a tiny bit of grease wiped it off so it just had a super thin layer on the rubber, but lubed it up well with a bit of oil. thats something else it said to do in whatever other guide i was following, i think it even said no grease on the wiper seals?

    lubing these things in the right places is a damn science haha

  105. #305
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    I've seen an online vid that said to put like 5ml of oil in the air chamber. Couldn't find any Rockshox service guide that said that for my current forks. I just clean out the inner stanchions, relube lightly with some Slickoleum or Sram Butter.

    Clean out the wipers and foam rings, replace if needed. Resaturate the foam rings, fill the inside cup of the wipers with a liberal amount of Sram butter.

    Liberally (not a huge gob like you see some folks doing) add a layer of butter on the seals and air shaft, work the seal head and that egg shaped rubber thingy so that they're coated on the inside then reassemble the fork. Add 10ml of oil in each lower leg for my Pike and torque down the bolts. I don't add oil to the air chamber.

  106. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by SA77 View Post
    Damn now i feel like I didnt quite reassemble my fork as well as i could have. The guide i was going off didnt mention anything about greasing the 150mm inside of the air spring side of the upper tube. I used plenty of grease on the air spring seal head but cant be near enough after looking at the proper rock shox guide.

    So since im re-doing it anyway.. can someone link me to the appropriate guide to follow? im not seeing anything about adding oil to the air spring uppers in this guide..

    https://www.servicearchive.sram.com/..._english_0.pdf



    You need to read more carefully, I guess.

    Page 35 of that document shows a lot of grease applied inside the stanchion tube.

    Page 37 shows grease and 0.5 mL of oil applied to the seal head before installing.

    Page 38 shows oil added into the upper tube.

  107. #307
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    Yep youíre right, I was swapping back and forth between that and another guide specific to the debonair upgrade. Sounds like thereís a shorter sram guide that doesnít have so many pages going over the damper rebuild as well

  108. #308
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    Damn, I think I was using an older guide as well that didn't show adding 3ml of oil to the air side.

  109. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinimon View Post
    Damn, I think I was using an older guide as well that didn't show adding 3ml of oil to the air side.
    Don't sweat it, this isn't rocket science... as long as you don't have noticeable stiction you are good to go. The 3ml's of oil just winds up in the negative chamber anyway. Personally I don't use any and just use a small amount of Slickoleum on the air seal piston.

    Have FUN!

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  110. #310
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    Yeah first time I've ever seen fluid to be added on top of air side. Only owned Lyriks though.

    Did 2 days at the bike park and the Air Spring behaves as most have reported.

    Most noticeable was less brake dive and bike felt more balanced in berms.

    Felt less draggy after the regrease recommended above plus a solid ride on it.

  111. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    Don't sweat it, this isn't rocket science... as long as you don't have noticeable stiction you are good to go. The 3ml's of oil just winds up in the negative chamber anyway. Personally I don't use any and just use a small amount of Slickoleum on the air seal piston.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    I did two rides after I did the new seal head/foot install and service and didn't notice anything different in performance. I did trickle 3mil of oil into the air chamber before reading your post. Good to know.

  112. #312
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    where are people running their clickers? I'm about 175-180 geared up, 140 travel, 79 psi, 1 token, fully open on HSC/LSC, and been trying between 5-7 clicks from open with rebound. I'll add a click of LSC depending on the trail. Im doing this purely based off past experience with my old lyrik, needing to run as little compression damping as i could to keep it reasonably supple.

    To try and get better performance on those low speed big hits without losing the support and high speed performance.. wonder if it'd be worth trying less pressure, but dialing in more compression? Or less pressure, add a token, and add compression?

  113. #313
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    I'm about 155lbs with my kit on. Running a 150mm Debonair Revelation upgraded with a Charger 2.1 with upgraded seal head/foot nut on a 32lb Nukeproof Reactor 275.

    For my trails, I'm running the following:
    PSI: 75psi
    Rebound: 5clicks from slow
    LSC: 8 clicks from closed
    Spacers: 0 to 1 depending on trail

    So far, it's nice and plush on the rock gardens and rooty sections. I'm using up about 95% of my travel on some of the trails and haven't felt the fork diving on the berms.

  114. #314
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    This is interesting. In an official Mattoc service video, they also show 3 mL semi-bath oil on top of the air piston. But there is a graphic overlay saying not to do this:

    https://youtu.be/e81ZjaRq3XU?t=694

  115. #315
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    So rebuilt mine again with grease in the right places, a small amount of oil between the two seals, and 3ml oil on the top of the air piston. also discovered one of my foam rings was dislodged and squeezed between the stanchion/lowers, i used the push seals/foam rings and guess i didnt stretch them out enough, im sure that wasnt helping...

    Anyway running the same settings same air pressure 78-79 right off the bat it was MUCH more supple overall but mostly the first 1/3 of its travel, to the point it was using too much travel, and ended up going from fully open on both HSC and LSC, to 1 click of HSC and 3 of LSC, still used all my travel, and felt a little on the soft side.

    but what i liked is for how soft it felt and how good it was in terms of slow speed tech/traction, it wasnt that divey, not as much support as i'd like but it was still decent. Wondering if I should keep air pressure the same and dial in more compression. or try to get back that support from air pressure.

    Regardless its a big improvement from a poorly greased install, and a huge improvement in every way over my old pike.

  116. #316
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    3ml oil through the dimple can go to negative camber and decrease the volume of camber that results in loss of small bump sensitivity. Mattoc does not have a dimple.

  117. #317
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    This is the reply I got from DIAZ suspension when I was asking them about RUNT for my Lyrik;

    The best combination is the Debonair C1 with the RUNT for the most linear spring rate, but you need to tune the damper because RockShox has a lot of compression damping stock on the Charger 2 and 2.1 dampers. With a more supportive spring, you don't need nearly as much compression damping, so the fork will feel harsher with the C1 until the damper is tuned. Then it will be supportive and supple.
    So it seams the tune of the damper is in order to "release" compression and made C1 debonair supple as B1?

  118. #318
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    Am I the only one who found this 2021 air spring upgrade results in a weird noise when compressing the fork. Oh, and I'm about to start dropping air pressure as the top of stroke is on the harsh side.

  119. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by islander View Post
    Am I the only one who found this 2021 air spring upgrade results in a weird noise when compressing the fork. Oh, and I'm about to start dropping air pressure as the top of stroke is on the harsh side.
    Did you lube up the new air spring enough when putting it in? I donít have any weird noises.


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  120. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by austink26 View Post
    Did you lube up the new air spring enough when putting it in? I donít have any weird noises.


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    Plenty of lube.

  121. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    This is interesting. In an official Mattoc service video, they also show 3 mL semi-bath oil on top of the air piston. But there is a graphic overlay saying not to do this:

    https://youtu.be/e81ZjaRq3XU?t=694
    Manitou used to use Prep M grease in assembly and oil on top of air pistons. That Mattoc video must be about 5 years old now. They changed to Slickoleum grease shortly after that and no longer use oil.

    It's a fine line between oil adding to lubrication and acting as a solvent to strip grease films away and migrate to the lowest point.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  122. #322
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    Do you benefit more from the Debonair 2021 if you're lighter in weight? This is because the air pressure is lower and the fork is more responsive?

  123. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by defiets View Post
    Do you benefit more from the Debonair 2021 if you're lighter in weight? This is because the air pressure is lower and the fork is more responsive?
    So for the lyrik they donít recommend dropping pressure. I kept the same pressure and it feels great. The pressures dropped a bit on the pike but it doesnít make the fork discernibly more active imo.


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  124. #324
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    Here's an anecdotal assessment from a v3 user, for those that are interested. No graphs here, just my personal take.

    So my fork was originally a 2018 Yari 160mm. I then upgraded to the Charger 2.1 damper and v2 air spring (170mm). So far so awesome. When it came time to do a service I experimented with removing the top out bumper - bad idea. Given my ride weight of around 90kg, I was running 84psi and that gave me around 20% sag; however when I removed the top out bumper I had to run 110psi just to get to sag and the fork felt awful. I immediately pulled the fork apart and went back to stock.

    Roll on the v3 - I picked one up from Shockcraft (thanks for being straight with people on your website, big thumbs up). Looking at the new seal head I knew I wasn't going to use the top out bumper - I took a guess that I could regain the lost negative spring volume and put the compression ratio pretty much back where it was. This turned out to be the way to go, as 84psi gave me around 20% again.

    For me it's been an upgrade. I now have the full 170mm to play with, I'm getting pretty much full travel (which despite my best efforts was hard to achieve before) and the bike sits higher on the trail and there's no noticeable loss of sensitivity or traction (I'm running slightly lower pressure now - 81psi). Now I wasn't too bothered about losing a few mm before, but for me if the fork can't reach full extension then it's not going to reach the ground as quickly when you, for example, slide off a root. That's arse-saving traction you're leaving on the table, as now your sag might say 20% but actually it's 15%.

    A note on removing the top out bumper - I can grab the crown and brace and pull the fork to top out, but under normal riding it won't top out as the negative spring acts as a pneumatic top out. Those running 180mm might have a different experience, especially if you don't use rebound damping. (We all know that one guy...)

    So, if your circumstances are similar to mine, I'd say give it a shot without the top out bumper and you might get the best of the v2 and v3 springs. Or you might not. Happy fettling.

  125. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgertz View Post
    I have the 2021 airspring installed in my 160mm pike together with the HC97. Yes, it is now much firmer of the top but the progression is more gradual if this makes sense. However I do not feel it harsh of the top or so. I am using 2.5wt in the damper instead off 5wt if this somehow relates to this? Honestly, I feel my bike is more balanced now because my rear shock (deluxe rt) has not much to adjust and I never could get them balanced. My fork always felt more divey than my rear shock. This is now gone and nicely balanced. Furthermore, i feel that the geometry of my Jeffsy has improved as I am now sitting more upright, but in a pleasant way. So even if 2021 Debonair has less compliance of the top, in my case the comfort and balance increased. I will try for a while but currently I am surprised how well it fits my bike (and riding skill). Cheers to everyone!


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    Thank you very very much, this is what I was looking for since I have a Jeffsy with deluxe-RT in the rear.
    F

  126. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju Dan View Post
    Here's an anecdotal assessment from a v3 user, for those that are interested. No graphs here, just my personal take.

    So my fork was originally a 2018 Yari 160mm. I then upgraded to the Charger 2.1 damper and v2 air spring (170mm). So far so awesome. When it came time to do a service I experimented with removing the top out bumper - bad idea. Given my ride weight of around 90kg, I was running 84psi and that gave me around 20% sag; however when I removed the top out bumper I had to run 110psi just to get to sag and the fork felt awful. I immediately pulled the fork apart and went back to stock.

    Roll on the v3 - I picked one up from Shockcraft (thanks for being straight with people on your website, big thumbs up). Looking at the new seal head I knew I wasn't going to use the top out bumper - I took a guess that I could regain the lost negative spring volume and put the compression ratio pretty much back where it was. This turned out to be the way to go, as 84psi gave me around 20% again.

    For me it's been an upgrade. I now have the full 170mm to play with, I'm getting pretty much full travel (which despite my best efforts was hard to achieve before) and the bike sits higher on the trail and there's no noticeable loss of sensitivity or traction (I'm running slightly lower pressure now - 81psi). Now I wasn't too bothered about losing a few mm before, but for me if the fork can't reach full extension then it's not going to reach the ground as quickly when you, for example, slide off a root. That's arse-saving traction you're leaving on the table, as now your sag might say 20% but actually it's 15%.

    A note on removing the top out bumper - I can grab the crown and brace and pull the fork to top out, but under normal riding it won't top out as the negative spring acts as a pneumatic top out. Those running 180mm might have a different experience, especially if you don't use rebound damping. (We all know that one guy...)

    So, if your circumstances are similar to mine, I'd say give it a shot without the top out bumper and you might get the best of the v2 and v3 springs. Or you might not. Happy fettling.
    Your experience with the v3 air spring more or less mirrors mine. I posted a good while back about upgrading my 150mm A2 (2017) Solo Air Pike to 160mm with the v2 or v3 springs. I actually ordered both air springs. The first change was to the v2 spring with the increase in travel. I ran it for about a month before installing the v3 one. I'm glad I did this so I had the data point for reference. It was definitely an upgrade from solo air. The fork did sit a bit into the initial travel once the new seals broke in but it was sort of a zero sum because it meant the bike's (2017 Devinci Troy alloy) geometry didn't change much. At the same pressure as I used in the orignal (75psi) it sagged about 30% (including the unweighted sag) which was about where it was before. It felt a bit more supple on the really small stuff than the solo air but still sat low in the travel and felt a bit wallowy in the mid stroke. Progression made it nice and firm towards the end of the stroke and with one token in the air chamber I wasn't bottoming out.

    When I changed to the v3 spring, the first thing I noticed was that the fork didn't sink into the travel at all unweighted and this did make the static geometry feel a bit slacker. At the same pressure as before (75psi) it felt really stiff in the inital part of the stroke but good elsewhere. Could only get about 15% sag. I fooled around with the pressure a bit and settled on 70psi. This gave me 20% static sag and still felt stiffer on street bounces/noodling around in the driveway. Strangely enough, this didn't seem to translate to the trail. It still felt nice on the small stuff yet rode a bit higher. In this configuration, the fork felt pretty linear, really. More like a coil. However, I found that I was bottoming the fork out out hard on bigger drops, where I never did before. Back to 75 psi solved that problem but felt harsh on small stuff. So last week I popped the cap off the air spring, put another token in it and pumped it up to 70psi and BAM! that seems to be the sweet spot. It still feels good on the small stuff but isn't bottoming out harshly any more though I do use pretty much all the travel on the largest drops I do. Midstroke is nice and supportive, no diveyness at all.


    Tl;dr: I tried both air springs and like the v3 one best in an A1/A2 Pike.

  127. #327
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    If anybody has a 120mm c1 for a pike lemme know! They are out of stock everywhere it seems.

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty904 View Post
    If anybody has a 120mm c1 for a pike lemme know! They are out of stock everywhere it seems.
    remember you can change the air shaft so you don't have to just get a 120mm pike.

  129. #329
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    How easy is it to remove the top out bumper on the new springs? What do you feel you gain from doing this. I upsized 10mm on a V2 spring because the V3 felt really harsh to me, but I did like the support in some areas and how it felt in the middle of its travel.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ju Dan View Post
    Here's an anecdotal assessment from a v3 user, for those that are interested. No graphs here, just my personal take.

    So my fork was originally a 2018 Yari 160mm. I then upgraded to the Charger 2.1 damper and v2 air spring (170mm). So far so awesome. When it came time to do a service I experimented with removing the top out bumper - bad idea. Given my ride weight of around 90kg, I was running 84psi and that gave me around 20% sag; however when I removed the top out bumper I had to run 110psi just to get to sag and the fork felt awful. I immediately pulled the fork apart and went back to stock.

    Roll on the v3 - I picked one up from Shockcraft (thanks for being straight with people on your website, big thumbs up). Looking at the new seal head I knew I wasn't going to use the top out bumper - I took a guess that I could regain the lost negative spring volume and put the compression ratio pretty much back where it was. This turned out to be the way to go, as 84psi gave me around 20% again.

    For me it's been an upgrade. I now have the full 170mm to play with, I'm getting pretty much full travel (which despite my best efforts was hard to achieve before) and the bike sits higher on the trail and there's no noticeable loss of sensitivity or traction (I'm running slightly lower pressure now - 81psi). Now I wasn't too bothered about losing a few mm before, but for me if the fork can't reach full extension then it's not going to reach the ground as quickly when you, for example, slide off a root. That's arse-saving traction you're leaving on the table, as now your sag might say 20% but actually it's 15%.

    A note on removing the top out bumper - I can grab the crown and brace and pull the fork to top out, but under normal riding it won't top out as the negative spring acts as a pneumatic top out. Those running 180mm might have a different experience, especially if you don't use rebound damping. (We all know that one guy...)

    So, if your circumstances are similar to mine, I'd say give it a shot without the top out bumper and you might get the best of the v2 and v3 springs. Or you might not. Happy fettling.

  130. #330
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    Just rode around the house on mine now and definately feels more linear which is probably why people say its more coil like. Less sag, more linear, not sure how high it will ride though Will add 1x token and perhaps a Formula Neopos soft token to get the mistroke progression slightly more. I wasn't using any tokens with the D2 previous spring (150mm pike)
    TIP OF AFRICA

  131. #331
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    After installing the new Debonair ... anytime I inflate it from zero, I find I have to pull on the fork to make it go to full extension to equalize it. I hear a hiss when I do this and the fork feels noticeably smoother

    On the prior debonair I didn't have to.

    Only ever had to equalise my rear shock.

    Is it just me or is this normal?

  132. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkdbboy View Post
    After installing the new Debonair ... anytime I inflate it from zero, I find I have to pull on the fork to make it go to full extension to equalize it. I hear a hiss when I do this and the fork feels noticeably smoother

    On the prior debonair I didn't have to.

    Only ever had to equalise my rear shock.

    Is it just me or is this normal?
    I experienced the same thing and from what I know it is perfectly normal to need to equalise. Happy to stand corrected.

    I bought a 2020 Pike Ultimate and opted for a C1 upgrade from the seller who installed it prior to sending. I absolutely hate the thing. Quick chattery ground (even a gravel road) seems to be super harsh. Could be my lack of adequate setup skills. I have a 2019 Lyrik Select and that fork is simply beautiful to ride, I just set the sag and it feels great. Also have a mattoc, Bomber Z1, Sektor, Fox 34 ... Can't say any of these feel anything like this fork, almost feels like it's locked out.

    I pulled the lowers today and nothing seemed out of place, grease in the right places ... if anything I thought it seemed a little dry, a few drops of oil dripped out of the lowers when I cracked them open, was expecting more tbh.

    I cleaned, lubed uppers and air spring seals etc with sram butter and put everything back together (sans 3ml in the top ... I didn't use the dynamic seal grease and the service manual specifically states the oil to be added when using the seal grease (not sram butter). Hopefully tomorrows ride will be smoother.

    Question: I have the stock air spring, how would it feel compared to a lyrik running the same generation spring?

  133. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I experienced the same thing and from what I know it is perfectly normal to need to equalise. Happy to stand corrected.

    I bought a 2020 Pike Ultimate and opted for a C1 upgrade from the seller who installed it prior to sending. I absolutely hate the thing. Quick chattery ground (even a gravel road) seems to be super harsh. Could be my lack of adequate setup skills. I have a 2019 Lyrik Select and that fork is simply beautiful to ride, I just set the sag and it feels great. Also have a mattoc, Bomber Z1, Sektor, Fox 34 ... Can't say any of these feel anything like this fork, almost feels like it's locked out.

    I pulled the lowers today and nothing seemed out of place, grease in the right places ... if anything I thought it seemed a little dry, a few drops of oil dripped out of the lowers when I cracked them open, was expecting more tbh.

    I cleaned, lubed uppers and air spring seals etc with sram butter and put everything back together (sans 3ml in the top ... I didn't use the dynamic seal grease and the service manual specifically states the oil to be added when using the seal grease (not sram butter). Hopefully tomorrows ride will be smoother.

    Question: I have the stock air spring, how would it feel compared to a lyrik running the same generation spring?
    So I put the original debonair spring back in and boom, supple and controlled without much tuning at all. Not sure what's the deal, are the new Pikes just complete garbage or is this an issue with 'upgraded' pikes? For the record mine is a 130mm 2020 Ultimate.

  134. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    So I put the original debonair spring back in and boom, supple and controlled without much tuning at all. Not sure what's the deal, are the new Pikes just complete garbage or is this an issue with 'upgraded' pikes? For the record mine is a 130mm 2020 Ultimate.
    Not surprising, with the new air spring, either you get support, or you get small bump sensitivity, in comparison with the B debonair. The neg air chamber is smaller, so you get less progressivity, and you have to compromise somewhere.

    That's why most people think it's a downgrade.

    I love my Select Lyrik too, the 2020 one with the new charger RC, I got it for 450 bucks, it's stupid-proof to set up, supra smooth, great support for my little weight and tons of progressivity with the B spring.
    I will maybe look at a Mezzer later, but I'm not even sure it's worth it for me, I just don't think about the Lyrik at all, it's transparent.
    Seing the effect of the C spring, it gave me Solo air vibes, which I absolutly hated, the compromise between decent support or small bump. Haven't tried tho... Maybe for science later.

  135. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    So I put the original debonair spring back in and boom, supple and controlled without much tuning at all. Not sure what's the deal, are the new Pikes just complete garbage or is this an issue with 'upgraded' pikes? For the record mine is a 130mm 2020 Ultimate.
    The increased ďharshness ď is more pronounced in the pike vs the lyrik. Rockshoxs recommends like 5psi less pressure in the pike when changing to the new air spring. The lyrik doesnít change pressure. I have a 130mm pike ultimate and 170mm lyrik ultimate (both 2020) that I upgraded to the new air spring. When running the old pressure the pike was a bit harsh, that went away when I dropped some pressure. It is still more noticeable than the lyrik but I still see it as an upgrade.


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  136. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetichon View Post
    Not surprising, with the new air spring, either you get support, or you get small bump sensitivity, in comparison with the B debonair. The neg air chamber is smaller, so you get less progressivity, and you have to compromise somewhere.

    That's why most people think it's a downgrade.

    I love my Select Lyrik too, the 2020 one with the new charger RC, I got it for 450 bucks, it's stupid-proof to set up, supra smooth, great support for my little weight and tons of progressivity with the B spring.
    I will maybe look at a Mezzer later, but I'm not even sure it's worth it for me, I just don't think about the Lyrik at all, it's transparent.
    Seing the effect of the C spring, it gave me Solo air vibes, which I absolutly hated, the compromise between decent support or small bump. Haven't tried tho... Maybe for science later.
    Yeah I bought the Pike because I love the Lyrik so much but I don't need that much travel on this bike. I was expecting that plush but controlled feeling the Lyrik provides. Thought what the hell I'll upgrade the air spring ... and seriously first ride out with 5psi less as per rockshox recommendation and I'm thinking what the hell is this crap? The Sektor on my daughters bike feels better than this thing. The new Pike replaced a 2019 Marzocchi Bomber Z1 and imo it is a downgrade in every possible way except for weight. Tried removing spacers, dropping and increasing pressure, slowing rebound ... over chatter it feels like a rigid fork.

    I $h!t you not, my gravel bike is more supple over gravel than my pike with the updated air spring.

  137. #337
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    One other thing I noticed swapping between air springs, with the older design, after removing air you could easily cycle the fork through its travel. With the new spring it takes quite a bit of muscle, as though it doesn't want to equalise.

    I bring this up because I find it hard to believe that the new springs are so rubbish. There must be something not right with this setup.

  138. #338
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    deb 2 with deb 3 nut

    Quote Originally Posted by paris View Post
    Has anyone actually run Deb 3 nut on a Deb 2 airshaft
    Same experience many above with deb 3
    Pro
    Rode high
    Neg
    Harsh even with less psi and less lsc
    Blow through travel
    Not as plush off the top and less ramp up

    options
    put deb 2 back in
    try deb 3 with even less psi and one more token so 3
    try deb 2 with deb 3 nut just want to make sure not going to cause problems
    150 pike ultimate
    @ Paris Did you ever try this? My experience is much the same as others, There are some things I like, but some that I dont. I dont like The topout for one..

    I want to run the D3 Footnut with D2 sealhead, so It will be like having a 160mm airshaft if the travel sits 10mm in, I will be back at 150mm, with my suppleness off the top and ramp at the end. The Pike maxes at 160mm, so it should be ok right?
    TIP OF AFRICA

  139. #339
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    I have two bikes with 130mm Pikes. One is a 2018/2019 Pike Debonair and the other is a 2021 Pike Ultimate. I love the new air spring. I'm running nearly the same pressure but the 2021 sits higher in the travel (~18% vs 24%) and has much more midstroke support. I'm 215 lbs and running 112 psi with 3 tokens btw.

  140. #340
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    So, what is the consensus here on the B1 vs C1 debonair springs?

    I'm on a 2018 160mm Rockshox Yari with Soloair and motion control damper. I've decided to upgrade to a debonair spring and I'm not sure which one to buy.

    Sounds like the C1 has a smaller negative air volume, and the same size positive, and as such, its a got a bit less initial suppleness, but more mid stroke support? Is that about the size of it?

    Sounds like on the Pike/shorter travel springs people are feeling like the C1's are harsher than the B1's. But maybe less issue on the longer travel springs?

    Is the consensus that "most" people like the C1's, or are "most" people keeping the B1's?

    If it helps, I'm about 185-190lbs without gear, and run ~100psi and two tokens in my Yari soloair.

  141. #341
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    Seems subjective. Some like it, some don't.

    I'm in the latter camp. I appreciate the added ride height but I find the new spring quite divey under hard braking. I tend to run my fork pretty stiff, so I'm not overly put off by added harshness, but any added brake dive is a bit of a concern. It's a non-issue if you ride flowier, lower grade trails, but ours are quite steep and require a lot of heavy front-end braking to get down the mountain. For me, if I wanted to increase the ride height or usable travel, the fix would be to run my Lyrik at 180 instead of 170. With the old spring.

    As with most things in mountain biking, it's all trail-subjectivity.

  142. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    So, what is the consensus here on the B1 vs C1 debonair springs?

    I'm on a 2018 160mm Rockshox Yari with Soloair and motion control damper. I've decided to upgrade to a debonair spring and I'm not sure which one to buy.

    Sounds like the C1 has a smaller negative air volume, and the same size positive, and as such, its a got a bit less initial suppleness, but more mid stroke support? Is that about the size of it?

    Sounds like on the Pike/shorter travel springs people are feeling like the C1's are harsher than the B1's. But maybe less issue on the longer travel springs?

    Is the consensus that "most" people like the C1's, or are "most" people keeping the B1's?

    If it helps, I'm about 185-190lbs without gear, and run ~100psi and two tokens in my Yari soloair.
    It seems that most experienced people are saying the former spring is better. People who are upset about the bike sagging under its own weight, seem to like the new spring.


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  143. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKRCD47 View Post
    It seems that most experienced people are saying the former spring is better. People who are upset about the bike sagging under its own weight, seem to like the new spring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    What's really wild is when people say that they have better mid-stroke support with the new spring. Especially when they couple that statement with having reduced air pressure to combat the reduced sensitivity. Kind of the opposite of what is physically happening in the fork. Really showcases how the marketing creates our expectations.

  144. #344
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    I went back to the original spring.

    90 psi 2 token in the c1 was harsh and horrible.
    110psi no tokens in the B1 smooth smooth smooth.

  145. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKRCD47 View Post
    It seems that most experienced people are saying the former spring is better. People who are upset about the bike sagging under its own weight, seem to like the new spring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Lol define ďexperiencedĒ in this case. For me the new air spring is better because it rides higher in the travel when on the trail. I have never cared about the static unweighted sag, but didnít like how the old air spring would dive too easily.

    The way I see it, the old air spring feels smoother. So if all out comfort is your goal, get that air spring. The newer one stands up better and offers what feels like a stiffer but more supportive ride. If you are an aggressive rider who likes their bikes a bit on the stiff side, go with the newer air spring.

    Neither is ďbetterĒ they are just different and will appeal to different riders.


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  146. #346
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    I thought the official recommendation from Rockshox was that they said to use the same air pressure (for the Lyrik at least)? So if people are reducing air pressure to get the old small bump sensitivity back, then they'll be getting even more ramp up at the end of the stroke, correct?

    So then is the "best of both worlds", to go up in travel with the old air spring? IE, should I be shopping for a 170mm B1? And theoretically that would give me more small bump sensitivity than my 160mm soloair, and would ride just a few mm higher up, and would have better mid stroke support/bottom out resistance?

    Again, sorry, I'm still pretty new to the world of suspension, so maybe I'm understanding it wrong?

    I'm a relatively new rider, but for the trails I know, I'm on the faster end of the spectrum (according to trailforks... which maybe isn't as "competitive" as strava), with a few top 10 times for the year. And, I'm a bit on the heavier side (~185-190lbs before gear, so maybe ~200lbs loaded). Maybe that means I'm "agressive"?

    And, I hear my current soloair is pretty awful, but I don't have any real complaints about it. Id assume the B1 or C1 would be better pretty much everywhere right?

  147. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by austink26 View Post
    Lol define ďexperiencedĒ in this case. For me the new air spring is better because it rides higher in the travel when on the trail. I have never cared about the static unweighted sag, but didnít like how the old air spring would dive too easily.

    The way I see it, the old air spring feels smoother. So if all out comfort is your goal, get that air spring. The newer one stands up better and offers what feels like a stiffer but more supportive ride. If you are an aggressive rider who likes their bikes a bit on the stiff side, go with the newer air spring.

    Neither is ďbetterĒ they are just different and will appeal to different riders.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Except that's not the case, right? The new spring rides higher (which is nice) except actually offers LESS mid-stroke support due to the reduction in negative spring volume. Now it's 100% possible that this doesn't matter if a person isn't riding trails where hard-braking is common or the grades aren't too steep. With the exception of those cases, the new spring could absolutely feel like it's overall a better choice and it holds the rider up better.

    But if a person is riding trails that result in the typical 'divey' behaviour from forks, particularly under braking, this new spring will be worse. It's just the nature of how it's constructed.

    Steve from Vorsprung had a good explanation of how and why this occurs in the PB comments. It corrects static ride height but not without sacrifices elsewhere.

    Too each their own. It'll be better for some, worse for others.

  148. #348
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    Not sure I appreciate the 'lack of support' on the older spring. Isn't that what the LSC is for?

  149. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlotch View Post
    Except that's not the case, right? The new spring rides higher (which is nice) except actually offers LESS mid-stroke support due to the reduction in negative spring volume.
    Except it feels like the new spring has better midstroke and I have both versions in 130mm travel right now. I actually didn't expect the new version to make a difference except for a few mm of ride height. I wasn't looking for improved midstroke but to me that's the most noticeable difference.

  150. #350
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    Cool - goes to show how subjective it all is . Either way, it's a cheap part to try out and see if it helps. If not, no real harm.

  151. #351
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    So I'm not sure what to think about the B1 at this point. I was told initially that I'd probably be able to run more pressure (ok, upped it a little) and remove the token, but I seem to use too much travel on really big hits, like into the ABS. After a few rides like this, I put the token back in. I still need some more pressure, so I'm getting closer, but I don't feel a hands-down better feeling with the B1 over the A1 that I had previously. Still going to do some testing. Part of this may be due to how satisfied I am overall and how well damped the fork is with the Avy cart. In short, it's real good. I wanted to see if this made any difference, since it was relatively inexpensive. So far, I'm not really sold.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  152. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlotch View Post
    Except that's not the case, right? The new spring rides higher (which is nice) except actually offers LESS mid-stroke support due to the reduction in negative spring volume. Now it's 100% possible that this doesn't matter if a person isn't riding trails where hard-braking is common or the grades aren't too steep. With the exception of those cases, the new spring could absolutely feel like it's overall a better choice and it holds the rider up better.

    But if a person is riding trails that result in the typical 'divey' behaviour from forks, particularly under braking, this new spring will be worse. It's just the nature of how it's constructed.

    Steve from Vorsprung had a good explanation of how and why this occurs in the PB comments. It corrects static ride height but not without sacrifices elsewhere.

    Too each their own. It'll be better for some, worse for others.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Except it feels like the new spring has better midstroke and I have both versions in 130mm travel right now. I actually didn't expect the new version to make a difference except for a few mm of ride height. I wasn't looking for improved midstroke but to me that's the most noticeable difference.
    My Experience has been the same as @ Slotch's this far. But I'm still to play around with it much.
    I ran the B1 (2019)spring @108PSI no tokens with the LSC all the way in. This gave me good small bump sensitivity as I live in a very rocky area, but also support in the steeper dive prone stuff.

    The C1(new spring), at that same pressure has less sensitivity off the top, but a flatter more linear curve through the rest of the stroke making it feel nicer in the parking lot test, but in actual fact, that ramp up (in my opinion) is what keeps the fork from blowing through its travel. I have a suspicion, that many folk are running to many bottomless tokens in the previous spring which makes the last 1/4 of the stroke very hard to access.
    Tokens are great for the more linear air springs where one had to run lower pressures to get the small-bump compliance off the top, but needed the tokens for ramp and more support in the middle and the end. It could be that one could manipulate the New spring like that( Add tokens and drop pressure) I have not done that yet, but those affect the initial and end of the stroke, while the middle of the stroke is what we really need to work for us, and is much harder to tune.
    TIP OF AFRICA

  153. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosbefok View Post
    a flatter more linear curve through the rest of the stroke
    Isn't that the definition of midstroke support... filling in the middle of the curve to make it more linear ('coil like').


    Also, people are pointing out the reduction in negative volume but not mentioning the reduction in positive air volume. Like I said, I run both versions within a couple psi of each other (110-112). It's not like they greatly reduced the negative volume in proportion so you have to run less psi. I actually run a couple psi higher in the new fork.

  154. #354
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    I haven't ruled out something is wrong with my newer spring. I mean it feels TERRIBLE. Given how many people like the new spring mine must be stuffed or something.

  155. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I haven't ruled out something is wrong with my newer spring. I mean it feels TERRIBLE. Given how many people like the new spring mine must be stuffed or something.
    I think either way, it shouldn't be wildy different than the old one. It's a noticeable difference but if you find one spring is ok/good and the other terrible then something might be wrong.

  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Isn't that the definition of midstroke support... filling in the middle of the curve to make it more linear ('coil like').


    Also, people are pointing out the reduction in negative volume but not mentioning the reduction in positive air volume. Like I said, I run both versions within a couple psi of each other (110-112). It's not like they greatly reduced the negative volume in proportion so you have to run less psi. I actually run a couple psi higher in the new fork.
    Sure, 100%. The problem is that the start and end points in the curve move when you get the mid stroke to the place you want it, you might not be able to tweak the beginning of the stroke anymore, the end stroke can be adjusted via tokens. Im saying the previous spring was good for that.

    Anyway, each to his own, and it will be highly subjective and dependent on weight.. It depends what you need from the fork. If you need some degree of sensitivity off the top for traction, it may be hard to keep the midstroke support you'd like. I will be experimenting further as I want it to be true
    TIP OF AFRICA

  157. #357
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    Best thing I did was went up 10mm in travel on the old spring. Im pretty sensitive to ride height and bar height and it feels like the same ride height as the new spring but handles bumps of any size way better.


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  158. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    I think either way, it shouldn't be wildy different than the old one. It's a noticeable difference but if you find one spring is ok/good and the other terrible then something might be wrong.
    It's a night and day difference, the only fork I've ridden worse than the c1 pike was some crap suntour coil fork that's how bad it felt. I though the damper was busted that's why I swapped the spring out to the B1, and problem solved. I had thought maybe the c1 wasn't equalising, but again the older spring doesn't seem to have an issue.

  159. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Isn't that the definition of midstroke support... filling in the middle of the curve to make it more linear ('coil like').


    Also, people are pointing out the reduction in negative volume but not mentioning the reduction in positive air volume. Like I said, I run both versions within a couple psi of each other (110-112). It's not like they greatly reduced the negative volume in proportion so you have to run less psi. I actually run a couple psi higher in the new fork.
    Not quite, but it doesn't quite make sense either. Flatter means less support and more wallow, linear would be more of a straight line, which is what you'd want.
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  160. #360
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    Just to add to the overall discussion...

    Recently swapped out a Pike RCT3 2.1 with the prior air spring for one with the RC2 and the new air spring. The fork feels real good all around. Much better actually. Iím still on my Lyric RC2 with the prior air spring and really dig that fork too.

    Believe it or not RS seems to know what they are doing.

  161. #361
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    I'm liking the new air spring in my Lyrik 170. At 165 lbs., my B1 setup was 85 PSI with 1 token. I had been running my C1 at 75 psi and 1 token, which I thought felt good. But for the sake of experimenting, I went up to 80 psi and pulled out the token. I only had 1 ride like that and think I like the result, but wouldn't have minded a tad more support deep in the stroke. So I sawed a token in half and kept it at 80 psi. I still have to ride it like that and am curious whether the half token is noticeable (I saw some pros are running half a token).

    edit: the ride height is feeling a bit tall when cornering with 80 psi and half a token, and Iím not using a full 2-3 cm of travel. 80 psi and no tokens was better, but I think 75 psi + 1 token is the winner. Having that ramp late in the stoke gives a bit more pop, whereas the more linear feel of no tokens is a bit more glued to the ground.

    The C1 is maybe slightly less eager to move off the top of the travel, but at the same time I felt like the B1 would use up that initial stroke a bit too easily, so the small bumps would be working with a portion of the air spring deeper in its travel. The C1, sitting higher, feels like it deals with small bumps closer to topout, giving a lighter, less rampy feeling. On medium hits, I also felt like the B1 was a bit harsh and ramped up fast, whereas the C1 has a slightly more accessible middle of stroke without feeling unsupportive. I am not noticing any increased brake dive with the C1, though I run my bars pretty high.

    That said, now that I have been on the C1 for a bit over 2 months, it would be interesting to go back to the B1 to confirm.
    Last edited by D(C); 08-09-2020 at 03:11 PM.

  162. #362
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    Decided to grab the B1 in 170mm for the time being, and am fine if it sucks down a bit when I'm not on the bike. Hoping it should be an upgrade from my Soloair. Should be arriving next week.

    Mostly because I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to find B1's in stock, while I can get the C1 anytime I please from pretty much anywhere at this point, if I decide I want to change later.

  163. #363
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    I wouldn't be surprised if next year's model comes with a 'new and improved air spring with larger negative chamber'

  164. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by crembz View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if next year's model comes with a 'new and improved air spring with larger negative chamber'
    Yep.

    I find this new spring offering confusing. Seems as it should be strictly targeted at the E market but WTF do I know.

  165. #365
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    Itís wild to see that so many peopleís reaction to a $20 upgrade for a $45 air spring is ďnot today, SatanĒ.

    I got the upgrade the last time I had my fork lowers serviced, and I will give anyone who can tell the difference in a randomized, double-blind test $40. The fork feels different, sure, but 99% of that is just fresh oil and clean seals.

    The only difference that any of us will actually notice is that you donít have to cycle your fork when changing the pressure. Negative springs werenít added to air shocks for ďmid-stroke supportĒ, they were added to reduce the extremely high breakaway forces required relative to rider and vehicle weights. RockShox tweaked the positive/negative spring ratios and hit send on a press release, and yíall are acting like they just announced a new wheel size.

  166. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by codahale View Post
    Itís wild to see that so many peopleís reaction to a $20 upgrade for a $45 air spring is ďnot today, SatanĒ.

    I got the upgrade the last time I had my fork lowers serviced, and I will give anyone who can tell the difference in a randomized, double-blind test $40. The fork feels different, sure, but 99% of that is just fresh oil and clean seals.

    The only difference that any of us will actually notice is that you donít have to cycle your fork when changing the pressure. Negative springs werenít added to air shocks for ďmid-stroke supportĒ, they were added to reduce the extremely high breakaway forces required relative to rider and vehicle weights. RockShox tweaked the positive/negative spring ratios and hit send on a press release, and yíall are acting like they just announced a new wheel size.
    Wait, so... this is something being touted as an "upgrade" that doesn't really do anything, there's really no benefit aside from the relative service, and nobody will notice anything?

    I'll take two.

  167. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Wait, so... this is something being touted as an "upgrade" that doesn't really do anything, there's really no benefit aside from the relative service, and nobody will notice anything?

    I'll take two.
    I didnít say it doesnít do anything.

    RockShox has dynos and racers and Iím sure they used the former to make the latter faster and happier. But none of these mugs in here up in arms about how the thing they donít have is either too different or not different enough from the thing they already have will ever notice the difference.

    I mean, itís a $25 part. What sort of revolutionary improvements do you expect for $25? I paid $25 and now I donít have to cycle my fork when I change the pressure. How entitled would I have to be to feel ripped off?

  168. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by codahale View Post
    I got the upgrade the last time I had my fork lowers serviced, and I will give anyone who can tell the difference in a randomized, double-blind test $40.
    The difference in off-the-top behaviour is huge. I can tell that blindfolded easily.

    I'll send you my paypal account.
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  169. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The difference in off-the-top behaviour is huge. I can tell that blindfolded easily.

    I'll send you my paypal account.
    I canít tell if you donít know what RCTs are or how bets work, but best of luck in life.

  170. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by codahale View Post
    I canít tell if you donít know what RCTs are or how bets work, but best of luck in life.
    You can randomise the test as much as you want. Debonair V2 (B1) vs V3 (C1) air spring curves are very different off the top and easily distinguished in a blind test.

    V2 tapers off to zero force before full stroke.
    V3 has definite starting preload.

    I knew you were bluffing and wouldn't pay up.
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  171. #371
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    Edit: deleted. Not useful.
    Last edited by D(C); 08-11-2020 at 12:30 PM.

  172. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Yes
    Are any special tools needet to put the red seal head to the old solo air air spring?

  173. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack_steel View Post
    Are any special tools needet to put the red seal head to the old solo air air spring?
    No, if you have the tools to remove the lowers and air spring it is just a case of sliding the old seal head (and circlip/wave washer) off and new one one
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  174. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    No, if you have the tools to remove the lowers and air spring it is just a case of sliding the old seal head (and circlip/wave washer) off and new one one
    Looking at the size of the piston and the seal head (and the bumper) it looks like there is some kind of spacer needed to achieve the same size of the negative chamber - right?
    Last edited by jack_steel; 08-17-2020 at 11:07 PM.

  175. #375
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    The orig debonair red seal head works on the Solo Air shaft?

  176. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinimon View Post
    The orig debonair red seal head works on the Solo Air shaft?
    Apparently - yes...

    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...l#post14716477

  177. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinimon View Post
    The orig debonair red seal head works on the Solo Air shaft?
    Say I have a DSD Runt'd Lyrik and install a 150mm Solo Air (V1) shaft with the upgraded V2 red aluminum seal head (not the V3 nonesense that reduces negative air volume). Remove the top out bumper (increasing Solo Air/Debonair V1 negative volume).

    That's 30mm short of max travel and more negative volume/spring force than stock.

    From a pneumatic top-out lens, this setup should be just fine for trail riding, no? (I'm over the V3/C1 "upgrade"... and I am moving the fork to a bike that can't handle more than 150 front)
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  178. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by codahale View Post
    Itís wild to see that so many peopleís reaction to a $20 upgrade for a $45 air spring is ďnot today, SatanĒ.

    I got the upgrade the last time I had my fork lowers serviced, and I will give anyone who can tell the difference in a randomized, double-blind test $40. The fork feels different, sure, but 99% of that is just fresh oil and clean seals.

    The only difference that any of us will actually notice is that you donít have to cycle your fork when changing the pressure. Negative springs werenít added to air shocks for ďmid-stroke supportĒ, they were added to reduce the extremely high breakaway forces required relative to rider and vehicle weights. RockShox tweaked the positive/negative spring ratios and hit send on a press release, and yíall are acting like they just announced a new wheel size.
    I'm not entirely warmed up to it. I can notice the difference off the top. It's not huge. Noticing the greater mid-stroke support is much more difficult. Part of this is my damper, it's so good I never felt this was an issue or that I was lacking, so there might be a few situations where I notice a little better support, but it's less noticeable than the off-the-top travel/movement. Then there's the end-stroke. I'm having problems there. I'm already up around 10psi and I'm not finding the same end-stroke ramp-up that I had with A1. I have some protection in the form of the hydraulic ABS, but that's more of a safety-stop that works in addition to the air progression and it seems like I'm missing some of the air progression with B1. I'm still tuning this, but I keep having to up the pressure.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  179. #379
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    Is the ultimate solution: Airshaft A1 + Debonair red seal head B1 + Luftkappe?

  180. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by defiets View Post
    Is the ultimate solution: Airshaft A1 + Debonair red seal head B1 + Luftkappe?
    That's what I would like to find out. The only problem is, you need a self made spacer between the top out bumper and the seal head or between the piston and the top out bumper to push the negative chamber to the correct size because of the different lengths of seal heads and pistons between A1/B1.

  181. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by defiets View Post
    Is the ultimate solution: Airshaft A1 + Debonair red seal head B1 + Luftkappe?
    Seems that would work very well
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  182. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccinpa View Post
    Couldn't you just buy a 10mm longer air spring and add a 10mm spacer under the top out bumper to push the seal head up closer to the equalization dimple? Would that enlarge the negative spring while taking advantage of the higher ride height.

    Attachment 1323863
    I wanna ask this question again, but in a slightly different way.

    What would be the impact of adding the spacer between the red V2 seal head and the top out bumper on a V2 airshaft?

    Impact meaning: what exactly would it do to/for the fork and fork's travel?

    For the sake of argument, let's assume the spacer is the same length as the difference between the V2 silver footnut and the V3 red footnut.
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  183. #383
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    Enduro w/ 170mm lyrik - Pro's and cons to upgrading to the 180mm spring?

    Trying to decide if I should get the 180mm upgrade to my Lyrik. I really like doing downhill and park jumps and I am worried that the extra travel will hurt me on park jumps. If not then I would love the extra travel for bumpy DH sections. - Also will the extra 10mm make climbing much harder?

  184. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack_steel View Post
    That's what I would like to find out. The only problem is, you need a self made spacer between the top out bumper and the seal head or between the piston and the top out bumper to push the negative chamber to the correct size because of the different lengths of seal heads and pistons between A1/B1.
    You're making things more complicated than it needs to be... Use a V1 airshaft that is 10mm LONGER than the one on your V2 (that accounts for the 10mm long seal nut at the ends of V2 shafts), use the V2 red sealhead, and Luftkappe the V1 air piston = best of all worlds. The negative chamber will be slightly smaller as I recall but that would be a benefit to me as you get less pull down.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  185. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    You're making things more complicated than it needs to be... Use a V1 airshaft that is 10mm LONGER than the one on your V2 (that accounts for the 10mm long seal nut at the ends of V2 shafts), use the V2 red sealhead, and Luftkappe the V1 air piston = best of all worlds. The negative chamber will be slightly smaller as I recall but that would be a benefit to me as you get less pull down.
    I think you are wrong with a longer shaft... When I use a V1 air shaft and I replace the V1 seal head with the red V2 seal head, the negative chamber will be reduced in length by about 10 mm (the red V2 seal head i shorter then the black plastic V1 seal head). A 10 mm shorter negative chamber means 10 mm more travel for a given air shaft.

    EDIT: After having a look into the installation instructions of the Luftkappe I learned, the Luftkappe does not need a top out bumper because it works with a pneumatic top out instead of a mechanic top out. How does that work? Is the force in the negative chamber simply strong enough to stop the piston before it touches the seal head?

    I agree with you by trying to compensate for the shorter negative chamber with a Luftkappe but it would be very interesting to estimate the size of the resulting negative chamber. Will it be smaller or larger then a stock SoloAir chamber? Will it be smaller or larger then a DebonAir chamber?

    I have to make sure the air shaft will not collide with my second positive air chamber (AWK) which has a length of 125 mm. I can use a 140 mm SoloAir shaft or a 130 mm V3 DebonAir shaft without problems. I'm not sure if I could use a modified 140 mm V1 SoloAir shaft with Luftkappe and V2 seal head.

    EDIT: What if I use the stock SoloAir shaft with the SoloAir piston and the V2 DebonAir seal head AND I remove the top out bumper too. The missing bumper and the smaller sized seal head increases the possible size of the negative chamber but will I have something like the pneumatic top out of the Luftkappe?

  186. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack_steel View Post
    EDIT: What if I use the stock SoloAir shaft with the SoloAir piston and the V2 DebonAir seal head AND I remove the top out bumper too. The missing bumper and the smaller sized seal head increases the possible size of the negative chamber but will I have something like the pneumatic top out of the Luftkappe?
    Seems our heads are in the same spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Say I have a DSD Runt'd Lyrik and install a 150mm Solo Air (V1) shaft with the upgraded V2 red aluminum seal head (not the V3 nonesense that reduces negative air volume). Remove the top out bumper (increasing Solo Air/Debonair V1 negative volume).
    I like 'em long, low, slack and playful

  187. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
    Seems our heads are in the same spot.
    How long is your DSD Runt? I use the german engineered AWK - more or less the same thing - a second positive air chamber. My AWK has a length of 125 mm (bottom to the point where the top cap touches the crown) and is sized to be compatible with 140 mm SoloAir shafts or less. I don't think I can mount a Luftkappe because of the larger piston head. But it would be nice to run the newer red V2 seal head for improved friction.
    For what I know, the DebonAir spring (V2) didn't improve the fork when running it together with something like a AWK or a DSD Runt. Maybe because the negative chamber was to large?

  188. #388
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    I think with the Luftkappe, you'll find it may be too progressive in any setup that is close to the maximum travel of the fork. Its essentially like putting two tokens in the fork. Also, it acts just like the Debonair B1 spring on top out where it pulls a couple mm into the travel because it relies on a pneumatic top out.

    I think the ideal setup would be basically an aluminum piston/sealhead B1 Debonair where it uses the shaft for the negative spring but doesn't have the added progression of the Luftkappe. The aluminum piston (with PTFE o-ring support rings like the Luftkappe) would likely just help reduce friction some by holding better tolerances on the o-ring squish.

  189. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack_steel View Post
    EDIT: What if I use the stock SoloAir shaft with the SoloAir piston and the V2 DebonAir seal head AND I remove the top out bumper too. The missing bumper and the smaller sized seal head increases the possible size of the negative chamber but will I have something like the pneumatic top out of the Luftkappe?
    THIS! Vorsprung makes this clear in their directions so I was assuming you knew that. And yes, I really think that is the best of all worlds.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  190. #390
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    What is the thinking that says a larger negative volume causes more suckdown? I can't see how that would work and think it would actually be the opposite.

  191. #391
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    I'm not sure this is an upgrade for everyone. I installed the C1 air spring at the beginning of June. Right away I noticed it was harsher off the top and less sensitive. I had the feeling of the front end washing out on fast/loose/high-speed turns when leaned over. I knew I was getting my fork tuned and a Runt installed by DSD, so I left it in hoping it would get better after the tune/Runt. Even with the Runt, I still have the same sensation. At 165lbs I'm running 60psi Low and 120psi High, I'm using just about all the travel on my usual rides. I just can't get the traction out of the front I had before. I can tell it's slowing me down and I have less confidence. So I reinstalled the B1 air spring and will report back after a few rides to see if that fixed my issue.

  192. #392
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    Installed a 160 C1 in my 18í Lyrik. After the install I was baffled by the force required and the ďPreloadí as mentioned by Dougal on the air spring. Would it be possible without super negatively affecting anything to cut the top out bumper so the piston sits closer at top out to the seal head or internal dimple? My goal is to reduce the preload to near zero.

  193. #393
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    It seems that initial force necessary to move the fork is an issue often raised with the new C1 airspring in this thread. In this regard I made an (for me at least) interesting observation:

    Recently. i changed the charger 2.0 seal head to the charger 2.1 usoing a 200h Service pack. In the package from RockShox, a brand new C1 assembly was also included (red foodstud and seal). Just for curiosity, i interchanged my used one to the factory fresh one. The difference in friction was substantial! Onestly, my used seal-cap had noticeably so much less friction, that i was really suprised. I also tried to relube the new seal-cap with r.s.p slick-kick, which helped, but did not resolved the difference in friction.
    So i'm not a (tribology) expert, but to me it seems reasonably that many of the here proposed initial impressions may be altered by the effect of "fresh" seal-caps? I understand that the theory speaks for reduced initial sensetivity, which i absolutely respect, but this effect should be "continous", right? But can it be possible that the often mentioned "Harshness" may occoure due to the stick-slip effect of the new seal-cap?
    I cannot remember how the old debonair seal-cap behaved when was new, so argumentation is not scientifically rigid, but i felt this observation seemed interesting for this thread..

    Greetings to all,
    Marvin

  194. #394
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    I just installed a Debonair 2 spring assembly on my 2021 RS Pike Ultimate and the travel is now sitting at 150mm instead of the 140 I was intending on. I got part number: 00.4019.931.007 which is supposed to be the correct length for a 29" Pike to give 140mm of travel. I haven't disassembled it yet but I'm wondering if the shaft lengths are different for the newer Pikes vs. older? If so which one do I need to make the 2021 Pike 140? I guess I'll pull it apart and measure it but I'm not sure what length it should be??

  195. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by spokeywheeler View Post
    I just installed a Debonair 2 spring assembly on my 2021 RS Pike Ultimate and the travel is now sitting at 150mm instead of the 140 I was intending on. I got part number: 00.4019.931.007 which is supposed to be the correct length for a 29" Pike to give 140mm of travel. I haven't disassembled it yet but I'm wondering if the shaft lengths are different for the newer Pikes vs. older? If so which one do I need to make the 2021 Pike 140? I guess I'll pull it apart and measure it but I'm not sure what length it should be??
    On a 2021 ultimate you need a 00.4019.930.002. The length of shaft depends on the equalisation port location and Pikes have had this refined since the 2018 model year. Your spring assembly is for 29er pikes from 2014-2017.

  196. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    On a 2021 ultimate you need a 00.4019.930.002. The length of shaft depends on the equalisation port location and Pikes have had this refined since the 2018 model year. Your spring assembly is for 29er pikes from 2014-2017.
    Yeah thanks I did some research and realized that I had the wrong kit. I got the 14-17 A1/A2, not the 2018+ B1+ that I should have. I went ahead and swapped the air sealhead and footnut from the A1/A2 kit onto the airshaft that came with the fork and that got me sorted.

  197. #397
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    So in reading through this thread, and some other sources, I think I am informed enough to make the right call, but perhaps someone with a better understanding can chime in if I'm of course...

    I have a 2018 Pike RCT3, labeled Debonair on the lowers, but does not have the stamp on the upper stanchion, so I believe I have the V1 debonair. I need to change the travel, thus need a new air-shaft, and from what I gather, I am going to be best served going with a V2 debonair shaft 10mm longer than the travel I am actually after. This is based upon the reports that the V3 is firmer/harsher off the top, given it's design to sit topped-out w/ no rider weight (i.e.; no sag from bike weight). I understand the V2 will sit partially sagged, and will initiate travel a bit easier. I do have some concern about mid-stroke support with the V2, but am not positive what the real deal is with that with the V2.

    This is for a playful steel hardtail. I typically ride fairly aggressive, but this bike is primarily used for rides with kids on more XC trail (Northeast) and flow/jump trails.

  198. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipperyb View Post
    So in reading through this thread, and some other sources, I think I am informed enough to make the right call, but perhaps someone with a better understanding can chime in if I'm of course...

    I have a 2018 Pike RCT3, labeled Debonair on the lowers, but does not have the stamp on the upper stanchion, so I believe I have the V1 debonair. I need to change the travel, thus need a new air-shaft, and from what I gather, I am going to be best served going with a V2 debonair shaft 10mm longer than the travel I am actually after. This is based upon the reports that the V3 is firmer/harsher off the top, given it's design to sit topped-out w/ no rider weight (i.e.; no sag from bike weight). I understand the V2 will sit partially sagged, and will initiate travel a bit easier. I do have some concern about mid-stroke support with the V2, but am not positive what the real deal is with that with the V2.

    This is for a playful steel hardtail. I typically ride fairly aggressive, but this bike is primarily used for rides with kids on more XC trail (Northeast) and flow/jump trails.
    if your looking for "playful" hardtail then the v3 is way more "playful" than v2.

  199. #399
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    Been back on the B1 spring for the last 3 weeks or so. Also took the opportunity to change the fork to 180mm from the stock 170mm.

    Honestly, I'm usually too ham-fisted of a rider to notice these little nuances so I'm honestly surprised how much of a difference these springs make. I also recognize that people's experiences will be subjective and will differ greatly based on bike setup and trails ridden.

    In my case, the bike is back to feeling balanced. With the C1 spring, I felt I was blowing through the travel much more easily towards the latter part of the stroke. Also, our trails vary from 'steep' to 'steeper' and front-end braking was causing significant dive with the C1. I suppose in another person's case, this could equate to 'more easily used travel', but my bike has a rather progressive rear-end and it needs some decent ramp up in the front in order to feel balanced.

    Different strokes for different folks (pun entirely intended).

  200. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by codahale View Post
    I canít tell if you donít know what RCTs are or how bets work, but best of luck in life.

    Seriously... You throw an argument like this at Dougal? I strongly suggest you do more homework.

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