(Re) PUSHED Float RC – Sloooow Rebound- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    (Re) PUSHED Float RC – Sloooow Rebound

    Ok, so a few months ago I had my Float RC PUSHED. It is run on a 19” Ventana El Salt (4” travel).

    When I got the shock back and mounted it, I noticed a “rattle” when riding high frequency stuff – washboard.

    I road it for a while thinking that maybe it needed to brake in, etc. Well, after deciding that this was just not the case, and being tired of sounding like an old truck rattling down the trail I called PUSH. They said, no problem, this something that we have seen before, it is likely a adjustment to the “shims”. They said send it in, we’ll take care of you and get to the bottom of it.

    Ok, so today I get it back and mount it on the frame. Silent… Ahhhh, peace and quite! BUT, I notice a very noticeable change in performance. Granted, it has only, maybe ¼ mile on the pavement (jumping curbs, etc.) but the rebound of the shock is sooo slow. Even with the rebound adjustment all the way out. In fact, the rebound adjustment doesn’t’ seem to make any difference until about click 18 (of 20). At 18 or above it basically becomes a slug, and this is fine. But, wide open , or about 8 to 10, where I normally would have run it, is way to slow. I’m going to ride it on the trail tomorrow, but am afraid that it will “pack down”.

    So, my question… am I looking at a brake in period, or does this need to go back to PUSH yet again? I’m beginning to rack up the “coin” just shipping this back to Colorado!

    Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.
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  2. #2
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    Have you tried it on the trail yet? Perhaps this is part of the valving for your weight, riding style etc. From what I have heard, those shocks make the rear wheel feel like it is glued to the trail. Slow rebound might have a say in that. Keep us posted as I am interested in what is going on here.
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  3. #3
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    Answer

    El Salt,

    Your shock has been retrofitted with a new feature that's being borrowed from the development of the DHX kits. It's what we refer to as Power-Trac and it changes the rebound characteristic of the shock dramatically. I can assure you that the shock will come to life on the trail, as the new valve system opens under bump impacts to yeild a much more reactive rebound circuit than what you've previously experienced. I apologize that you weren't notified of the feature, however we've yet to install this valve full time in anything other than the DHX dampers at this point due to the limited number of valves on hand currently.

    Darren

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt
    Ok, so a few months ago I had my Float RC PUSHED. It is run on a 19” Ventana El Salt (4” travel).

    When I got the shock back and mounted it, I noticed a “rattle” when riding high frequency stuff – washboard.

    I road it for a while thinking that maybe it needed to brake in, etc. Well, after deciding that this was just not the case, and being tired of sounding like an old truck rattling down the trail I called PUSH. They said, no problem, this something that we have seen before, it is likely a adjustment to the “shims”. They said send it in, we’ll take care of you and get to the bottom of it.

    Ok, so today I get it back and mount it on the frame. Silent… Ahhhh, peace and quite! BUT, I notice a very noticeable change in performance. Granted, it has only, maybe ¼ mile on the pavement (jumping curbs, etc.) but the rebound of the shock is sooo slow. Even with the rebound adjustment all the way out. In fact, the rebound adjustment doesn’t’ seem to make any difference until about click 18 (of 20). At 18 or above it basically becomes a slug, and this is fine. But, wide open , or about 8 to 10, where I normally would have run it, is way to slow. I’m going to ride it on the trail tomorrow, but am afraid that it will “pack down”.

    So, my question… am I looking at a brake in period, or does this need to go back to PUSH yet again? I’m beginning to rack up the “coin” just shipping this back to Colorado!

    Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.
    The question is, are you t alkiong about the low-speed rebound characteristics?

    If so, you want those slow.

    The high speed rebound has to be fast to be able to react fast enough for bumps.

    So the question is, have you ridden your shock so it sees high speed impacts yet? When you do, you'll be able to tell how the high speed rebound characteristics have changed.

    Not all shocks can have seperate high and low rebound characteristics, but idealy they would.

    As a side note, pushing down on your bike while it is stationary is no way to set any damping adjustments. It's in no way going to be representative of hitting a bump at 30mph, and nor is riding it off or into a curb at a slow speed.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #5
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    Darren / Everyone –

    Sweet, sweet, sweet…

    Ok, so this morning I “went back to the drawing board”, printed out the PUSH setup recommendations for shocks, got my ruler, and shock pump out and went to work! (I’m learning, and liking)

    So, the bike – ’05 Ventana El Salt (4”), FOX TALAS up front, and my (older) Float RC on the back.

    I’m 205 with gear, and before being PUSHED would run the RC at about 180psi (probably just a little hard, but remember this is not / was not a platform shock.) I’d work the lockout lever during longer fire road / pavement climbs.

    Now, this morning, after researching what other have written and after going over the setup suggestions, I’m running the shock at about 130psi – 70% of what I was running. This seems to be in line with what others seem to be finding for post-PUSHED shocks.
    My RC is 200mm eye-to-eye, and with this pressure I’m getting about 12-14mm sag, which seems to be about right for semi-aggressive XC / Light Trail use(?)

    Riding at this pressure (and the rebound all the way out / fast) around the street, I think things are feeling better, and now reading Darren’s comments, I’m feeling better.

    Have plans to hook up with a few others and do a local ride this afternoon. I’m just hoping things will cool down a bit here in Los Angeles, we are already near 90 degrees at 11am.

    Jayem – I think you are right. The slow speed rebound (jumping curbs, etc.) does seem slow, but I think that at higher speeds things will be different (again, after reading Darren’s post, this seems to be the case). I will definitely post as soon as I get some trail time on this shock.

    Thanks to everyone for the comments, and of course for Darren’s input, the work done by PUSH and their fantastic customer service.
    .
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The question is, are you t alkiong about the low-speed rebound characteristics?

    If so, you want those slow.

    The high speed rebound has to be fast to be able to react fast enough for bumps.

    So the question is, have you ridden your shock so it sees high speed impacts yet? When you do, you'll be able to tell how the high speed rebound characteristics have changed.

    Not all shocks can have seperate high and low rebound characteristics, but idealy they would.

    As a side note, pushing down on your bike while it is stationary is no way to set any damping adjustments. It's in no way going to be representative of hitting a bump at 30mph, and nor is riding it off or into a curb at a slow speed.
    I don't think low and high speed rebound damping is connected to impact character, like low and high speed compression damping is, but to travel position.

    The reason would be that the force that is pushing the rebound damper is the spring force and not bumps.

    The spring force is big when the spring is much compressed, and small when the spring is little compressed. So the high-speed rebound damper would control the rebound speed at the deepest part of travel, and the low-speed rebound damper the last, outer, part of rebound travel - independently of how fast the shock was compressed.

    It seems that I would want a rebound damper that adapts the damping to the speed at which the fork was compressed - not to the rebound speed. But I haven't heard of any such rebound damper. Tried once to adress it with this post: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=129250

    So I think it's not accurate to say that low-speed rebound damping generally should be slow. If you go slowly over small bumps, then you may want it slow, but if you go fast over small and sharp bumps, then you may want it fast.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by anden

    So I think it's not accurate to say that low-speed rebound damping generally should be slow. If you go slowly over small bumps, then you may want it slow, but if you go fast over small and sharp bumps, then you may want it fast.
    Well, you just said exactly what I did. If the shock shaft has to move fast, (small sharp bumps) that's a high speed movement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Well, you just said exactly what I did. If the shock shaft has to move fast, (small sharp bumps) that's a high speed movement.
    I meant "fast" as in weak damping, not high shaft speed. After any small bumps, rebound shaft speed will be relatively low even when you ride fastly and even with weak damping.

    When you say that low-speed rebound characteristics should be "slow", then I assumed that you mean that damping should be strong at low shaft speed.

  9. #9
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    Upset

    At least your PUSH experience did not end your season. Mine is over after a locked out fork blew thru its travel as if nothing fracturing the Scaphoid bone in my wrist. Brace is temporary for now they are looking at placing it in a cast after a second grouping of x-rays. Emailed PUSH about this and the reply was only "what was the air pressure set at?" WTF just paid out for an 'upgraded' fork, busted my hand, ended my riding / racing season, and had to cancel my epic trip which was already paid for. This is one really expensive component that I really don't trust riding.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by crux
    At least your PUSH experience did not end your season. Mine is over after a locked out fork blew thru its travel as if nothing fracturing the Scaphoid bone in my wrist. Brace is temporary for now they are looking at placing it in a cast after a second grouping of x-rays. Emailed PUSH about this and the reply was only "what was the air pressure set at?" WTF just paid out for an 'upgraded' fork, busted my hand, ended my riding / racing season, and had to cancel my epic trip which was already paid for. This is one really expensive component that I really don't trust riding.
    Bit of a stretch there don't you think?? If it blew through the travel that easily then the air pressure was set too low, doesn't have anything to do with wether or not it was Pushed. Blaming them for your accident seems pretty ridiculous. Pushed or not, it's ultimately your responsibility to check your equipment before you ride.

    Larry
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  11. #11
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    Update

    Well, Sundays ride did not happen. Just too darn hot here in So Cal, but last night (Monday) I did manage to get out on my very local trail for a few miles after work.

    I must say that I’m feeling pretty impressed. Darren was right. The shock was feeling pretty good. Different than before (before original and before the initial “PUSH”), but good. I think I’ll need another, longer, ride on my usual trails before I can say if I’m satisfied or not. None the less, the shock did feel good, once I was hitting small bumps / drops at some speed. It did seem that I needed to keep the rebound set wide open, however, to keep things happening at a comfortable (quick enough?) rate. I’ll post again after this weekends ride. Thanks to everyone for the comments.

    CRUX – wow, man I’m sorry about your situation. Not sure what to say. I know you’ve got a couple (?) of Ventanas – I’ve seen your posts on that board, so I “feel” extra for you, being a fellow Ventana-phile.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventanarama
    Bit of a stretch there don't you think?? If it blew through the travel that easily then the air pressure was set too low, doesn't have anything to do with wether or not it was Pushed. Blaming them for your accident seems pretty ridiculous. Pushed or not, it's ultimately your responsibility to check your equipment before you ride.

    Larry
    Mountain High Cyclery
    Wow, yeah. When "locked out fork" and "blew through its travel" are in the same sentance and blamed for a crash, no wonder PUSH asked about air pressure. Who knows how the fork was set up by the user?

    Can only be called rediculous...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc
    Wow, yeah. When "locked out fork" and "blew through its travel" are in the same sentance and blamed for a crash, no wonder PUSH asked about air pressure. Who knows how the fork was set up by the user?

    Can only be called rediculous...

    Thought this was a ??? as well.

    To get an idea of how the fork compares with an OEM Fox ran two identical forks back to back on the same trail on the same bike with only a quick swap out from OEM to PUSHed version. OEM preformed as expected quick swap out for the PUSHED fork fresh out the box from them. Set all variables identical Air at 95 PSI rebound 6 clicks... Fork sag was a bit lower than the new OEM that was just swapped out. Quick parking lot test proved to be smooth, but no trail yet. Started in on the trail and it soaked up the bumps well and was going thru a bit more travel than OEM. Switched to lock out on the climb to test this and it was not locking out as expected. Cycled the fork a few times in attempts to get it locked. Started in on a short decent with a few small log in the trail, hit the first one and fork was down, second log sent me flying with the wheel caught firm and smacked the hand on the way down. The fork was not locked out as it should of been and I'm attempting to work with PUSH to find out what happened.

    Know that we have to assume user error, but when it is not we need to find out the cause of the issue and correct it before it happens again.

    Not attempting to flame PUSH or get into a liability issue, just want to find out what happened and have a ridable fork for next season.

    Of course I'm upset that my season is over, but give me a break if you were taken out mid season you would be upset as well.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by crux

    Not attempting to flame PUSH or get into a liability issue, just want to find out what happened and have a ridable fork for next season.

    Of course I'm upset that my season is over, but give me a break if you were taken out mid season you would be upset as well.
    ok, I'll bite..

    Your initial post was a flame on PUSH, you can't deny that. I agree I would be upset if I was unable to ride, but to say that your PUSH experience caused the end of your season goes beyond being "upset".

    I'm sure you checked the blowoff/platform threshold knob at the bottom of the right leg to make sure it was set to give the "lockout" you needed?

    op
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by crux
    At least your PUSH experience did not end your season. Mine is over after a locked out fork blew thru its travel as if nothing fracturing the Scaphoid bone in my wrist. Brace is temporary for now they are looking at placing it in a cast after a second grouping of x-rays. Emailed PUSH about this and the reply was only "what was the air pressure set at?" WTF just paid out for an 'upgraded' fork, busted my hand, ended my riding / racing season, and had to cancel my epic trip which was already paid for. This is one really expensive component that I really don't trust riding.
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  16. #16
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    Post Ride(s) Updates

    Just the quickest of updates…

    So, finally, after what seemed like an eternity of days near or over the 100 degree mark, plus a weekend out of town, I’ve finally gotten some good rides in on this shock. Trails that I know, and have ridden for years. This seamed like the thing to do, ride trails that I know well, to better understand this PUSHed shock.

    I think for the most part I’m going to agree with Darren’s input (see above), the shock does seem to behave quite differently when riding it at speed. Still, it seemed a just a tad slow on the rebound for most things, this riding quick single track at a really good clip. Now, I will say that while I’ve ridden FS bikes for many years now, I’m not an expert on suspension setup. So, I’m open to learning new things about suspension. So, the seemingly slow rebound may turn out, for me, to be better in the long run. I will say that now (read my original post) the shock is silent and extremely smooth feeling, even more so than when it first came back from PUSH. I am running the rebound dial all the way out / open / fast, any tighter, and it really feels slow.

    On small fast wash-board stuff, the shock seems just a bit too firm, or “platform”, but once hitting stuff that is 5” to 10” it really feels smooth and sticks to the ground (maybe the “slower rebound?). I dropped it off some 16” to 20” stuff at speed and it landed great, no “buck”, yet it reset and was ready to go as I proceeded along the trail.

    On the other hand, while climbing, the platform / “anti-bob” feel was amazing. Better than the first time back from PUSH. It was really firm, felt like before the rebuild, when it still had a lock out lever.

    I’m running the shock at about 130psi – 70% of what I was running when the shock was original, (I’m 205 with gear on) this seems to be in line with what others are finding for post-PUSHED shocks. My RC is 200mm eye-to-eye, and with this pressure I’m getting about 12-14mm sag, which seems to be about right for semi-aggressive XC / Light Trail use(?)

    So am I happy? Yes. The only thing that could make it better (for me), would be if the rebound adjustment seemed to open up just a bit more when it was wide open, then I would feel that tightening it down a few clicks would be right.

    Again, now since the “re-PUSH”, the shock is silent, super smooth, very “platform” on climbs, and does seem to open up when riding it over terrain.

    Thanks to Darren and PUSH for their great work and super customer service!
    Last edited by El Salt; 08-06-2006 at 06:26 PM.
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