PUSH or replace ?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    PUSH or replace ?

    So I've got a 2002 Hammerhead 100X with Fox Float R front and rear. Looks like it could cost $400 to PUSH the fork and shock. Is it worth putting that much money into older components, or should I just upgrade to unPUSHed 2006 fork and shock? Looking to upgrade all around performance of the bike. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Replace it with something modern . Suspension has come along way in a short time. 5th element ..who ?
    Yeah I gotta question. You got any excuses tonight Roy ? -Antonio Tarver

    There is room for it all, just ride what you like to on what you like to...that's freeriding. -rbn14



  3. #3
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    Get an rp3 for the rear and a F100RLT for the front. Stick some Enduro Seals in.
    But if you're looking to save $$$$ do the Push.

  4. #4
    Daniel the Dog
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    It just depends

    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    So I've got a 2002 Hammerhead 100X with Fox Float R front and rear. Looks like it could cost $400 to PUSH the fork and shock. Is it worth putting that much money into older components, or should I just upgrade to unPUSHed 2006 fork and shock? Looking to upgrade all around performance of the bike. Thanks.
    Listen, I have a RP3 in the rear of my Turner and a Pushed Vanilla up front. I have ridden many bikes with no low speed compression in the past: plain old Floats and many different forks. Some bikes actually ride better without low speed compression. I don't know, I'm not sure your Hammerhead would instantly improve with an updated suspension. It would be interesting to call Hammerhead and see what they think. I wonder if the Hammerhead wouldn't pedal better with a regular old Float. Derby stated that the Tracer is better without a RP3. He is a big suspension, engineer junkie who can feel suspension movement on bikes when I can't feel a thing.

    Jaybo

  5. #5
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    So I've got a 2002 Hammerhead 100X with Fox Float R front and rear. Looks like it could cost $400 to PUSH the fork and shock. Is it worth putting that much money into older components, or should I just upgrade to unPUSHed 2006 fork and shock? Looking to upgrade all around performance of the bike. Thanks.
    I PUSH'd the stock Float on my Hammerhead in 2003 and it makes a tremendous difference. You'll use more through-travel, have a firmer platform without loss of small bump performance and experience greatly improved tracking because of the improved damping.
    I'd also recommend adding the AVA sleeve for $80 which eliminates the ramp-up the stock Float suffers from on the HH chasis.
    At the very least, if your shock hasn't been serviced since you bought it then it needs an oil change and nitrogen recharge. Believe me when I say that your pup is dead. You just don't know it. If you did nothing but have the oil changed, seals replaced & nitrogen charged you'd notice a huge difference but if you're going that far then spend a few more bucks and have it PUSH'd.
    If the shock is in good working order then there's no reason to spend $400 or so for an RP3. Spend around $200 for the AVA & PUSH service and you'll be far better off than the RP3 (unless it's a PUSH'd RP3 which is the best option).

    Front fork: As above. If you like the performance and feel then have it PUSH'd for a quick & demosntrably noticeable upgrade.

    I was one of the original HH owners from the first batch in 2002 and have had all my suspension PUSH'd since so know that I'm not speaking abstactly. Give a shout out to Homebrew for another and concurring opinion.

    If you have the upgrade bug then also consider going to the 3 piece cross link that Titus released in 2004. It makes the rear noticeably stiffer and the bike tracks better with it.

  6. #6
    Daniel the Dog
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    You ride with the Push guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    I PUSH'd the stock Float on my Hammerhead in 2003 and it makes a tremendous difference. You'll use more through-travel, have a firmer platform without loss of small bump performance and experience greatly improved tracking because of the improved damping.
    I'd also recommend adding the AVA sleeve for $80 which eliminates the ramp-up the stock Float suffers from on the HH chasis.
    At the very least, if your shock hasn't been serviced since you bought it then it needs an oil change and nitrogen recharge. Believe me when I say that your pup is dead. You just don't know it. If you did nothing but have the oil changed, seals replaced & nitrogen charged you'd notice a huge difference but if you're going that far then spend a few more bucks and have it PUSH'd.
    If the shock is in good working order then there's no reason to spend $400 or so for an RP3. Spend around $200 for the AVA & PUSH service and you'll be far better off than the RP3 (unless it's a PUSH'd RP3 which is the best option).

    Front fork: As above. If you like the performance and feel then have it PUSH'd for a quick & demosntrably noticeable upgrade.

    I was one of the original HH owners from the first batch in 2002 and have had all my suspension PUSH'd since so know that I'm not speaking abstactly. Give a shout out to Homebrew for another and concurring opinion.

    If you have the upgrade bug then also consider going to the 3 piece cross link that Titus released in 2004. It makes the rear noticeably stiffer and the bike tracks better with it.
    We may have some bias. Hmmm. However, it does sound like you are a happy camper. Okay, dude, Push the fork and shock. The Hammerhead tribe has spoken. Oh, and by the way, if you don't have more fun on your bike and your wallet feels lighter, don't blame me.

    Jaybo

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    I PUSH'd the stock Float on my Hammerhead in 2003 and it makes a tremendous difference. You'll use more through-travel, have a firmer platform without loss of small bump performance and experience greatly improved tracking because of the improved damping.
    I'd also recommend adding the AVA sleeve for $80 which eliminates the ramp-up the stock Float suffers from on the HH chasis.
    At the very least, if your shock hasn't been serviced since you bought it then it needs an oil change and nitrogen recharge. Believe me when I say that your pup is dead. You just don't know it. If you did nothing but have the oil changed, seals replaced & nitrogen charged you'd notice a huge difference but if you're going that far then spend a few more bucks and have it PUSH'd.
    If the shock is in good working order then there's no reason to spend $400 or so for an RP3. Spend around $200 for the AVA & PUSH service and you'll be far better off than the RP3 (unless it's a PUSH'd RP3 which is the best option).

    Front fork: As above. If you like the performance and feel then have it PUSH'd for a quick & demosntrably noticeable upgrade.

    I was one of the original HH owners from the first batch in 2002 and have had all my suspension PUSH'd since so know that I'm not speaking abstactly. Give a shout out to Homebrew for another and concurring opinion.

    If you have the upgrade bug then also consider going to the 3 piece cross link that Titus released in 2004. It makes the rear noticeably stiffer and the bike tracks better with it.

    Thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to call Charles at HH and see what he recommends for suspension upgrades. The 3 piece cross link sounds like a good idea.

    I did try to buy an AVA sleeve last time I ordered from HH, but Charles said they are long gone and not available for the Float. Do you know of somewhere to get one? Thanks.

  8. #8
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    Thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to call Charles at HH and see what he recommends for suspension upgrades. The 3 piece cross link sounds like a good idea.

    I did try to buy an AVA sleeve last time I ordered from HH, but Charles said they are long gone and not available for the Float. Do you know of somewhere to get one? Thanks.
    try PUSH or Mtn High Cyclery.

  9. #9
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    Bias?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    We may have some bias. Hmmm. However, it does sound like you are a happy camper. Okay, dude, Push the fork and shock. The Hammerhead tribe has spoken. Oh, and by the way, if you don't have more fun on your bike and your wallet feels lighter, don't blame me.

    Jaybo
    Damn, I love my PUSH'd Vanilla and I'd ride with the guys from PUSH, or Mountain High, 0r Downshift, or Red Barn any day of the week (not that I could keep up with them). Squeak's association with PUSH and Mile High are well known in these forums (read his signature line), and while I can understand why bias comes into play, I've read numerous posts he's written and I think he's pretty much dead on, bias nor no bias.

    Just my thoughts..

    Bob
    'If Wal-Mart sold parachutes, who would jump?' Frank Havnoonian (quoting his father) Drexel Hill Cyclery

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    Thanks for the advice guys. I'm going to call Charles at HH and see what he recommends for suspension upgrades. The 3 piece cross link sounds like a good idea.

    I did try to buy an AVA sleeve last time I ordered from HH, but Charles said they are long gone and not available for the Float. Do you know of somewhere to get one? Thanks.
    Depends on what you want to do with the bike but if it were me, I'm going to have to offer a dissenting opinion from Squeak.

    For the rear, the new 2005+ Floats don't need the AVA but offer the same benefits with improved compression ratios. They are also significantly lighter without the extra sleeve and have polished aluminum piston rods. If you're planning on keeping the bike for a while, it might be worth buying a new Float R and get it PUSH'ed at the first service interval. Now that's not to say that I don't enjoy the performance of my AVA on the HH but I think you would get the same results in a lighter package with the new Float. Basically, for the price of the AVA sleeve, you are half way to buying a new 05 or 06 Float R.

    For the front, I'm not sure the Float is the best fork for the bike. I sold my Float a couple years ago for a Vanilla, then a Minute 1 and now a PUSH'ed TALAS. I was looking for the option of using longer travel. If you had a TALAS, I would say, yeah, PUSH it. The PUSH will greatly improve the fork if that's what you want. Less dive, takes big hits and small bumps better, and more control. But you're still limited to 100mm of travel and the progressive ramp up.

    PUSH is a great option if you're looking to upgrade what you already have or looking to optimal performance at any cost.

    And yes, the 3 piece link is another great upgrade. It makes a stiff frame even stiffer. Get the aluminum link bolts and you can loose about an ounce too.

    Good luck.
    Long Live Long Rides

  11. #11
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    Depends on what you want to do with the bike but if it were me, I'm going to have to offer a dissenting opinion from Squeak.

    For the rear, the new 2005+ Floats don't need the AVA but offer the same benefits with improved compression ratios. They are also significantly lighter without the extra sleeve and have polished aluminum piston rods. If you're planning on keeping the bike for a while, it might be worth buying a new Float R and get it PUSH'ed at the first service interval. Now that's not to say that I don't enjoy the performance of my AVA on the HH but I think you would get the same results in a lighter package with the new Float. Basically, for the price of the AVA sleeve, you are half way to buying a new 05 or 06 Float R.

    For the front, I'm not sure the Float is the best fork for the bike. I sold my Float a couple years ago for a Vanilla, then a Minute 1 and now a PUSH'ed TALAS. I was looking for the option of using longer travel. If you had a TALAS, I would say, yeah, PUSH it. The PUSH will greatly improve the fork if that's what you want. Less dive, takes big hits and small bumps better, and more control. But you're still limited to 100mm of travel and the progressive ramp up.

    PUSH is a great option if you're looking to upgrade what you already have or looking to optimal performance at any cost.

    And yes, the 3 piece link is another great upgrade. It makes a stiff frame even stiffer. Get the aluminum link bolts and you can loose about an ounce too.

    Good luck.
    Valid points Homebrew so I guess it depends how much one wants to spend.
    A new Float will save roughly a quarter pound of weight over an older AVA Float at double the cost. Performance differences between these two shocks when stock are significant, but the new Float will not perform as well as the older PUSH'd AVA.
    A new PUSH'd Float will perform better than the older PUSH' AVA.
    A new PUSH'd RP3 would be best of all.

    Same goes for the fork comments. I don't disagree with you. OP implied that he wanted to keep his stock equipment so my comments were made with that in mind.
    If new fork is an option, then take a hard look at the Rock Shox Revelation or Reba or consider getting a new PUSH'd Fox product. I would take a U-turn Revelation over a stock TALAS anyday.

  12. #12
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    I'm no HH expert but for what it's worth, I think you first need to define what you are looking for in "Looking to upgrade all around performance of the bike".

    Does that mean a plusher feel, more fun on the downhill or does that mean better pedalling efficiency on buffed trails going uphill, or ...

    I don't have a HH but I have a horst link all mountain trail bike that has been going through a few "performance upgrade". Started with a Talas up front and Propedal at the rear, then a Swinger 3way air rear, then a Push RP3 rear and finally Marzo AM1 in front. All those were "performance upgrade" for me but they could be seen as "performance downgrade" if weight and bob are of utmost priority.

    Well, even after all those upgrades I'm still not satisfied. Even if the Push RP3 is very nice and well configured for my weight, I want a plusher rear on small stuff going downhill. So I'm currently looking at good old "non platform" type shocks, the new Rocco coil is really tempting.

    I hope this is not completely off topic for you but I think at least before you invest anything, establish clearly what you are looking for in performance upgrade. For me over the years I've realised that weight and bob were getting less and less important, fun and comfort are becoming more and more important!

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    So I've got a 2002 Hammerhead 100X with Fox Float R front and rear. Looks like it could cost $400 to PUSH the fork and shock. Is it worth putting that much money into older components, or should I just upgrade to unPUSHed 2006 fork and shock? Looking to upgrade all around performance of the bike. Thanks.

  13. #13
    Bodhisattva
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    Coil shocks are no-nos on the Hammerhead/Racer-X chasis. Too linear. Bottoms and causes frame damage. The design relies on the progressivity of an air shock.

    Swinger 3-way...yuck.

  14. #14
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Call_me_Clyde
    Damn, I love my PUSH'd Vanilla and I'd ride with the guys from PUSH, or Mountain High, 0r Downshift, or Red Barn any day of the week (not that I could keep up with them). Squeak's association with PUSH and Mile High are well known in these forums (read his signature line), and while I can understand why bias comes into play, I've read numerous posts he's written and I think he's pretty much dead on, bias nor no bias.

    Just my thoughts..

    Bob
    Thanks for the support Bob.

    You gotta understand that Jaybo revolts against the meritocratic nature of MTBR where reviews are based on real life testing without overt commercial industry bias.

    Take what he says with a big grain of salt. He is good for a chuckle though.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    A new Float will save roughly a quarter pound of weight over an older AVA Float at double the cost. Performance differences between these two shocks when stock are significant, but the new Float will not perform as well as the older PUSH'd AVA.
    A new PUSH'd Float will perform better than the older PUSH' AVA.
    Squeaky....

    with respect to your comments about the "new" PUSHed Float performing better than the older PUSHed AVA......I cant help but wonder about what permutation matter (ie, old shock, older PUSH, older shock with newer PUSH applied, etc.)

    The shock that Larry just got me is an older Float that was sitting in his shop when I was there. It was PUSHed already when I saw it Larry's shop but because it was not tuned for my weight he had to have PUSH re-tune it and said the newer PUSH stuff (ie, new piston I think he said?) would make it even better anyway.

    So....Question: does an older Float versus a newer Float matter so long as the current PUSH technology is applied?

  16. #16
    Bodhisattva
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    In 2003 I think it was, Fox released the RP3 and changed the style of the Float as well.

    My comments are made in reference to the '03 cut-off. I don't know if any significant changes were made in 05/06.

    In regards to your question the answer is no. The PUSH Vx piston and custom shimming is what Larry is getting for you.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    In 2003 I think it was, Fox released the RP3 and changed the style of the Float as well.

    My comments are made in reference to the '03 cut-off. I don't know if any significant changes were made in 05/06.

    In regards to your question the answer is no. The PUSH Vx piston and custom shimming is what Larry is getting for you.
    cool...thanks.

    i actually just got the shock back from PUSH and will be riding it this weekend. It was "trail" tuned I believe when Larry got it for me about 2 months ago but I decided I actually wanted it more XCish so Jimmy added platform to it last week. It felt incredible originally but given I am now a pathetic excuse for a lycra wearing XC guy.....i figured that a small sacrifice in plushness for more platform was worth it.

    cheers

  18. #18
    Bodhisattva
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    Sounds to me as if you should have gotten an RP3. That way you could adjust the platform on the fly to suit your girlish whims.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    OP implied that he wanted to keep his stock equipment so my comments were made with that in mind.
    Yup, I was just questioning whether the AVA ($90 retail and availability?) was worth the investment since it's not needed with the newer shocks. It was 2004 that Fox first introduced ProPedal and "2005" (June 04) when the did the complete redesign and added the RP3. Back in 2004 when we were first upgrading, the options were getting a ProPedal Float, Swinger 3-Way, or the AVA sleeve and PUSH for the 02 Float. We opted for the AVA/PUSH and defintely made the right decision. But today the variables have changed. A stock 05+ Float R is going to ride so much better than beat 3 year old Float. The stock 05 Float R doesn't have enough platform for my taste but getting it PUSHed will take care of that, ride smoother, and add more overall control to the ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    If new fork is an option, then take a hard look at the Rock Shox Revelation or Reba or consider getting a new PUSH'd Fox product. I would take a U-turn Revelation over a stock TALAS anyday.
    Ditto. I really didn't like my stock TALAS at all. The new RS stuff works well and doesn't cost an arm & a leg.
    Long Live Long Rides

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Sounds to me as if you should have gotten an RP3. That way you could adjust the platform on the fly to suit your girlish whims.
    yeah I know.......but Larry got me such a good deal on the PUSHed Float that it made sense to go that route.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BanzaiRider
    I'm no HH expert but for what it's worth, I think you first need to define what you are looking for in "Looking to upgrade all around performance of the bike".

    Does that mean a plusher feel, more fun on the downhill or does that mean better pedalling efficiency on buffed trails going uphill, or ...

    ..............

    I hope this is not completely off topic for you but I think at least before you invest anything, establish clearly what you are looking for in performance upgrade. For me over the years I've realised that weight and bob were getting less and less important, fun and comfort are becoming more and more important!

    Cheers.
    Yeah, good comments, you're right I need to be more specific about what performance I'm trying to upgrade.

    So a brief history. The HH is a superb climber as is, and climbing is my strong suit. But I really suck on technical downhill, and have often thought the HH could be the wrong bike for me because the head angle is fairly steep, there is some fork dive, and overall it feels twitchy on the downhills. I demoed a 2006 Stumpjumper recently and was pleasantly surprised at what 5" and more relaxed geometry can do for my downhill confidence. But I still prefer the HH overall and want to make some improvements in its downhill abilities.

    That's totally what's behind the suspension questions, although maybe what I want can't be achieved through suspension changes and I should consider other bikes.

  22. #22
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    Well, I guess this could change a lot of the suggestions! Basically you are going through a similar phase as I did a few years ago with my good old Giant NRS, however I'm sure you have more room for improvement with your HH than I had with my NRS at that time!

    My opinion if you want to improve your downhill performance is basically to install the tallest fork the frame will take. For example, Marzo forks that have the ETA are great, you can put a taller fork on the frame than the one it was designed for, it will not climb very well when fully extended but you have an instant switch (ETA) to lower the front when it's too steep. Also, after some experimenting, I found out that for me, there is nothing more confidence inspiring than a coil fork on the downhill. Even the great Fox air forks are no match against a coil Marzo for downhill performance in my opinion. For the rear, I think you have to get the plushest shock you can find and not bother too much about anti-bob because I think your HH frame is already a very good anti-bob design. I don't know if anybody ever tried a CaneCreek Cloud9 on a HH but it might be an interesting performer or a Push RP3 that would be tuned to have the least possible platform effect.

    Hope you find your nirvana. Don't hesitate to sacrifice your climbing performance with parts that are not performant going uphill, I did that and now I understand that you have to give your weak point the best chance to improve with the best parts, not tweak your bike to be best in what you are strong at.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    Yeah, good comments, you're right I need to be more specific about what performance I'm trying to upgrade.

    So a brief history. The HH is a superb climber as is, and climbing is my strong suit. But I really suck on technical downhill, and have often thought the HH could be the wrong bike for me because the head angle is fairly steep, there is some fork dive, and overall it feels twitchy on the downhills. I demoed a 2006 Stumpjumper recently and was pleasantly surprised at what 5" and more relaxed geometry can do for my downhill confidence. But I still prefer the HH overall and want to make some improvements in its downhill abilities.

    That's totally what's behind the suspension questions, although maybe what I want can't be achieved through suspension changes and I should consider other bikes.

  23. #23
    Bodhisattva
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    Banzai,
    I agree that air & coil shocks feel very different and there are pros/cons to both.
    But I'm going to disagree with you on several points. I speak from the perspective of a long time Hammerhead owner who has tried a variety of different suspension setups and who has followed very closely the experience of others.

    The HH frame is very sensitive to changes in head angles.The sweet spot is 100-110 mm of travel with a Fox or other fork with similar A-C height. Much more than that and the front end gets choppered out and handling greatly suffers. The front end "flops" in the corners and the bike just seems unbalanced. Less than that is not necessary because the frame already climbs so well and the steering gets overly twitchy.

    Marz coil forks have very high A2C heights relative to Fox & Rock Shox. In my opinion, the Marz coil forks are a terrible match for the HH frame for the reasons I stated above, but also because I'm a believer in having the front & rear suspension feel similar and an ultra-plush coil fork matched with an air shock on the HH chasis feels terrible. It results in cantilevering of the bike and an uncomfortable see-sawing like feel. The goal of suspension is to maintain control and ground traction and it can't do that effectively if mismatched front to rear. That's where damping comes in to play.

    In the end, what the OP wants may not be accomplishable with a HH and perhaps he should look at a different frame. But if he keeps the HH then he'd be wise to consider my statements and to go fish out more opinions on the Titus board where he'll hear more of the same advice.

    The CC9 is not a well damped shock and is inferior to the Fox IMO.

    Just my humble 2 cents.
    Last edited by The Squeaky Wheel; 11-11-2005 at 12:36 PM.

  24. #24
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    Hey Squeak, I don't think we disagree THAT much! As I said, I don't really know the HH frame, you are probably a much better reference than I am. To me getting the tallest fork the frame can take means something in a sense similar to what you are saying. The tallest fork means a fork that will make the bike feel great descending and cornering but not that great going uphill. I also didn't say he should get an Marzo AM1 like me, I just suggested a taller coil fork with an "ETA like" mechanism to help on uphill. I'm sorry I'm not a big fan of Fox air forks but that is from personal experience and opinion, I do not consider myself an expert at all but to me having a coil in front and air in the back is not a problem at all. Same for the Cloud9, it was just a suggestion. A few years ago, like many others, I installed one on my NRS and it still gives a very descent performance today even though I don't use it much anymore, the Banzai with Push RP3 does provide a much better package. On paper, the Cloud9 may not have the same highly technical specs as Fox shocks but on the bike and trails, it does feel pretty good and I just speculated that on an efficient frame like the HH it might be something to consider.

    For the original poster, please read my suggestions for what they are, I'm really just a regular joe that likes to ride and I have no technical background whatsoever plus I've never even seen a HH so the suggestions you get from me may not be the greatest. They are just food for thought.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    But I'm going to disagree with you on several points.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Sounds to me as if you should have gotten an RP3. That way you could adjust the platform on the fly to suit your girlish whims.
    Do you have any idea yet when the pushd dhx is going to be out?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonaStinky05
    Do you have any idea yet when the pushd dhx is going to be out?
    Soon.
    Only Darren can give you a more exact answer.

  27. #27
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    Well, perhaps what you want is a Moto-lite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Econoline
    Yeah, good comments, you're right I need to be more specific about what performance I'm trying to upgrade.

    So a brief history. The HH is a superb climber as is, and climbing is my strong suit. But I really suck on technical downhill, and have often thought the HH could be the wrong bike for me because the head angle is fairly steep, there is some fork dive, and overall it feels twitchy on the downhills. I demoed a 2006 Stumpjumper recently and was pleasantly surprised at what 5" and more relaxed geometry can do for my downhill confidence. But I still prefer the HH overall and want to make some improvements in its downhill abilities.

    That's totally what's behind the suspension questions, although maybe what I want can't be achieved through suspension changes and I should consider other bikes.

    Similar design, more travel, slightly slacker head angle. It should give more stability on the downhill and still climb great, with a minor weight penalty. I love mine!
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

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