Push HC97 for Charger2 - Pre/Post Sales Questions- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Idea! Push HC97 for Charger2 - Pre/Post Sales Questions

    You're welcome to ask any Pre-Sales or Post-Sales questions related to the Push HC97 damper upgrade and the actual owners will try to help you with real world feedbacks, settings, installation tips or anything that may help you get onboard quickly and easily!

    No graphs or theories here, just plain and simple English with only one goal! To help others.

    If you are interested by a more technical, high level discussion about this upgrade ... you should take a look at the original thread here

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    Not to be mean but why make a post to hopefully start a thread for non technical questions on a technical product. What I mean is by the earlier thread almost every question is a technical question. Which makes absolute sense for the product, I donít think your gonna get many ďdoes the blue knob slow how fast it comes backĒ questions on this type of product (wrong clientele).

    This seems like a total waste of a post, anyone purchasing a HC97 knows + from - and LSC from HSC and rebound from compression.

    Actually my mistake, I quick read the first part and missed the section about installation tips etc itís late and felt I got click baited. NVM, and now I canít delete.

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    We the people ...

    That's not mean at all, no worries that's a fair question! I never said it doesn't have to be technical but maybe not to the point where you have to publish data and graphs to prove your point, because there's nothing to prove (I'm sure you know what I mean by that). So if you are interested by the upgrade and want to know what it does best, where and how to install it for example ... and don't want to be bombarded with theories about how you could re-tune an already amazing piece of equipement made by the most recognized tuner in the market ... that's just an example

    I've seen a fair amount of people mistaking this upgrade for a "plusher ride" upgrade where in fact it is not. it performs as it's best when pushed hard on rough terrains to maintain control at speed! Most of the questions related to settings, LSC/HSC/RBD/Spring side etc... are honestly the most commons and don't many people care about the science behind it, at least no to the point where you have to have 10 years of Fluid Engineering behind you to start getting answers to simple questions. The initial thread is good but it's clogged up with sooo many arguments, it would take 3 hours to find a tiny bit of useful info where this one would be more "straight to the point". We'll see!

    Another good reason for this thread to exist is the fact that Push (ex: Darren) can't really help his customers without being targeted by competitors who are more than happy to make some noise while we wait on the side with our questions. I just feel the energy and time spent replying to naysayers would be more beneficial to proper/real customers who spent or are willing to spend some money toward a company they trust ... it's amazing to be able to get in direct contact with them and the forum becomes an open book for anyone to read!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Not to be mean but why make a post to hopefully start a thread for non technical questions on a technical product. What I mean is by the earlier thread almost every question is a technical question. Which makes absolute sense for the product, I donít think your gonna get many ďdoes the blue knob slow how fast it comes backĒ questions on this type of product (wrong clientele).

    This seems like a total waste of a post, anyone purchasing a HC97 knows + from - and LSC from HSC and rebound from compression.

    Actually my mistake, I quick read the first part and missed the section about installation tips etc itís late and felt I got click baited. NVM, and now I canít delete.
    Because every technical question gets buried by charts and graphs and dougal arguing about how there is no midvalve. I'm trying to figure out what the hell he means by midvalve, does he not like that you remove the compression shim stack and only leave one shim and spring located before the port or something? What I freaking wanna know is was I supposed to take 1 8mm shim from my compression stack to put it on my rebound stack to make 2 8mm shims for the rebound tune? There was only 1 8mm shim on the rebound stack in stock form for a 2.1 correct, I didn't lose one?

  5. #5
    Nat
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    Hear, hear. I think this thread will be helpful as long as Dougal doesnít jump in and muck it all up.

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    ok - i will start with my settings for anyone interested.

    brand new 2019 lyric with one ride before the hc97 was fitted
    83kgs 78psi 1 token.
    rp1 rebound tune
    rebound -10
    lsc20
    hsc-16

    with the base settings i felt it was a touch too firm so backed the hsc off to -20

    Since I have ridden the bike the forks have bedded in some what and have gone back in to -16 and the feel really good on rough hits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    What I freaking wanna know is was I supposed to take 1 8mm shim from my compression stack to put it on my rebound stack to make 2 8mm shims for the rebound tune? There was only 1 8mm shim on the rebound stack in stock form for a 2.1 correct, I didn't lose one?
    Iíd say itís a possibility! I thought ALL the rebound shims where shipped with the HC97 but they arenít and you have to keep most of the original ones and mix them a little. Because Push knows you wonít need the compression stack anymore maybe theyíve figured you could "steal" one shim and put it on the rebound stack. Thatíd be great to have an official answer. (And maybe update the PDF if itís the case ... just to make it clear for others)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    There was only 1 8mm shim on the rebound stack in stock form for a 2.1 correct, I didn't lose one?
    Looking at the "stock" rebound tune, there is x2 8mm shims.

    Iíd say if you lost one and replaced it by a 6.0x8.0x0.2 found in the compression stack well itís the same anyway...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    ok - i will start with my settings for anyone interested.

    brand new 2019 lyric with one ride before the hc97 was fitted
    83kgs 78psi 1 token.
    rp1 rebound tune
    rebound -10
    lsc20
    hsc-16

    with the base settings i felt it was a touch too firm so backed the hsc off to -20

    Since I have ridden the bike the forks have bedded in some what and have gone back in to -16 and the feel really good on rough hits.
    What length travel is your fork? Youíre just a hair heavier than I and your pressure is a bit lower but our settings are pretty close.

    Me: 178 lbs. dressed to ride with water

    Mine:
    2019 160mm Lyrik RC2
    LSC = 20
    HSC = 15
    Rebound = 10
    Rebound tune = RP1
    Tokens = 1
    Spring = stock air at 83psi

    Our trails are mostly smooth soil punctuated with occasional lava rock. I like how the HC97 made the front end more ďquietĒ and composed in the rough. With my DPX2 shock in medium setting the bike feels firm, like a German sports car suspension. It almost dulls the ride a little but I can go faster on rough terrain and go bigger on jumps since I feel more controlled.

    Recently in Moab on the super chunky Porcupine Rim Jeep road section I tried backing out the HSC several clicks with the idea it would take the chatter better at speed but Iím not sure it actually felt smoother that way. I keep going back to the recommended settings.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlocki View Post
    ok - i will start with my settings for anyone interested.

    brand new 2019 lyric with one ride before the hc97 was fitted
    83kgs 78psi 1 token.
    rp1 rebound tune
    rebound -10
    lsc20
    hsc-16

    with the base settings i felt it was a touch too firm so backed the hsc off to -20

    Since I have ridden the bike the forks have bedded in some what and have gone back in to -16 and the feel really good on rough hits.
    What length travel is your fork? Youíre just a hair heavier than I and your pressure is a bit lower but our settings are pretty close.

    Me: 178 lbs. dressed to ride with water

    Mine:
    2019 160mm Lyrik RC2
    LSC = 20
    HSC = 15
    Rebound = 10
    Rebound tune = RP1
    Tokens = 1
    Spring = stock air at 83psi

    Our trails are mostly smooth soil punctuated with occasional lava rock. I like how the HC97 made the front end more ďquietĒ and composed in the rough. With my DPX2 shock in medium setting the bike feels firm, like a German sports car suspension. It almost dulls the ride a little but I can go faster on rough terrain and go bigger on jumps since I feel more controlled.

    Recently in Moab on the super chunky Porcupine Rim Jeep road section I tried backing out the HSC several clicks with the idea it would take the chatter better at speed but Iím not sure it actually felt smoother that way. I keep going back to the recommended settings.

  11. #11
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    Push HC97 for Charger2 - Pre/Post Sales Questions

    Anyone running both the ACS3 + HC97 with a charger2?! (not 2.1)

    I find it too harsh on small/medium hits then absolutely great on high speed, bigger hits. Darren suggested a firmer spring (because the first 50% of the travel gets used very quickly) and less compression ... I should get it within the next few days but was wondering if someone is in the same boat.

    Are you guys on air springs finding it "confortable/plush" at low speeds on chattery trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrenolds View Post
    Because every technical question gets buried by charts and graphs and dougal arguing about how there is no midvalve. I'm trying to figure out what the hell he means by midvalve, does he not like that you remove the compression shim stack and only leave one shim and spring located before the port or something? What I freaking wanna know is was I supposed to take 1 8mm shim from my compression stack to put it on my rebound stack to make 2 8mm shims for the rebound tune? There was only 1 8mm shim on the rebound stack in stock form for a 2.1 correct, I didn't lose one?
    If he says stock has two then I would think you are only supposed to add one of the shims provided. Dumb question but are you 100% sure the two arenít just stuck together making you think you only got one? The light oil film and the small size can really get them stuck pretty good.

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    The 8mm shims are only clamp shims so 1 is all you need as long as thereís enough thread left to clamp the stack. If not, then you lost one

  14. #14
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    A mid valve is a second compression stack on the back of the rebound stack. As fluid moves through the mid stack considerably faster than the main compression stack it opens more tuning opportunities on both stacks. It makes suspension very complicated for reasons I won't go in to as the OP will sulk.

    Hope that helps.

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    Is this thread will also turn into mid-valve discussion?

    Here is the picture from Rock Shox Pike RC "Light" Tune thread. Top is the rebound (shims are missing) bottom is mid-valve / check plate / check shim (whatever you want to call it, spring is missing on the picture). Hope this helps.


  16. #16
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    15 posts and we've hit midvalve already.

    You guys really need to list your bike and frame size. Because that greatly influences the amount of weight on your front wheel and the motion ratio your fork works at.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben_mtb View Post
    Is this thread will also turn into mid-valve discussion?

    Here is the picture from Rock Shox Pike RC "Light" Tune thread. Top is the rebound (shims are missing) bottom is mid-valve / check plate / check shim (whatever you want to call it, spring is missing on the picture). Hope this helps.

    Thats funny because you don't change anything on that side of the compression damper, there is just a spring and one shim. Jesus if dougal doesn't like the stock midvalve make us a better one. I think he is pissed because darren was apparently saying you dont need it anymore or something but it's still on the damper I built per the instructions. Thanks I know what it is now, lets leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    The 8mm shims are only clamp shims so 1 is all you need as long as thereís enough thread left to clamp the stack. If not, then you lost one
    Ok, I think there was only 1 8mm shim for each stack on my 2.1 damper I just bought new. I was so careful and I'm positive one wasn't sticking to another, I checked that and laid them all out. I wish someone who has built one would chime in, was kinda hoping darren would chime in, maybe I will contact them directly. I did just take a 8mm shim from the compression shims to have 2 of them per the instructions. If what your saying is true there probably was only one 8mm shim per stack. Wonder if they have 2 in their tune for some reason?

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    Just double checked one of the 2.1 dampers I have here and it only has 1 8mm clamp shim
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Servicing in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/DVO service centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Just double checked one of the 2.1 dampers I have here and it only has 1 8mm clamp shim
    Thanks for doing that! Wonder if I should open up my shock and get rid of one of the 8mm shims or stick to the official tune?

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    It will be fine to leave as-is, the clamp shim stack height/spacing don't matter on those shim stacks, as long as you have at least 1 8mm shim
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Servicing in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/DVO service centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

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    Push HC97 for Charger2 - Pre/Post Sales Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Just double checked one of the 2.1 dampers I have here and it only has 1 8mm clamp shim
    Good job, thank you so much for helping him clear up the confusion!

    @Push> Please update the "HC97 REBOUND TUNING GUIDE CHARGER 2.1" to reflect the reality (unless weíre missing something)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    What length travel is your fork? Youíre just a hair heavier than I and your pressure is a bit lower but our settings are pretty close.

    Me: 178 lbs. dressed to ride with water

    Mine:
    2019 160mm Lyrik RC2
    LSC = 20
    HSC = 15
    Rebound = 10
    Rebound tune = RP1
    Tokens = 1
    Spring = stock air at 83psi

    Our trails are mostly smooth soil punctuated with occasional lava rock. I like how the HC97 made the front end more ďquietĒ and composed in the rough. With my DPX2 shock in medium setting the bike feels firm, like a German sports car suspension. It almost dulls the ride a little but I can go faster on rough terrain and go bigger on jumps since I feel more controlled.

    Recently in Moab on the super chunky Porcupine Rim Jeep road section I tried backing out the HSC several clicks with the idea it would take the chatter better at speed but Iím not sure it actually felt smoother that way. I keep going back to the recommended settings.
    170mm fork
    on a medium 2019 S-works Enduro with a TTX coil

    Our trails are very rocky 90% of the time.

    The only area i think i need to mess with is the lsc. it just feels abit firm on flat off camber corners and at the minute it doesn't have the feel i want.

  24. #24
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    Just heard back from push about 2 vs 1 8mm shim, guess the 2.1 dampers they got had 2 shims but apparently new rock shox 2.1 damers only have 1 8mm shim. Either way it doesn't really matter 1 or 2, here is the response I got. "1 or 2 shims will be perfectly fine, but it is interesting to hear that some have 1 and the dampers we had in for testing all had 2. The first 8mm shim will work as the pivot shim, and the additional one is just to take up some additional space. If you have two in now and there was only one to begin with you are still good to go!"

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    Good to know, thanks for the feedback!

  26. #26
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    can I use 3wt to bleed the charger damper during installation? that's what I have since that's what RS recommends on their service instructions.

    if not, does anyone know how much oil do I need? would a 120ml bottle be enough for the cartridge tube + charger bleed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    can I use 3wt to bleed the charger damper during installation? that's what I have since that's what RS recommends on their service instructions.

    if not, does anyone know how much oil do I need? would a 120ml bottle be enough for the cartridge tube + charger bleed?
    Old school 3wt is fine, you use most of a 120ml bottle. What you should do is get 5wt motorex oil on ebay, just search 153944. It's what push uses, otherwise if you want 3wt rockshox now recommends maxima plush 3wt and that comes in all dampers v2.1. You should also get the new debon air spring and rockshox dynamic seal grease and put it on the airspring and put 3ml of 0w30 in the air spring chamber since thats what they recommend as well now.

  28. #28
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    Thanks for the info! Seems like both maxima and motorex are about the same retail price. I have some 3wt oil (rockshox branded) I used to service my monarch back in the day, since I have no clue for how long it's sitting in the garage I will spend the $20 to get the new/correct oil!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfa81 View Post
    Thanks for the info! Seems like both maxima and motorex are about the same retail price. I have some 3wt oil (rockshox branded) I used to service my monarch back in the day, since I have no clue for how long it's sitting in the garage I will spend the $20 to get the new/correct oil!
    Motorex 2.5wt is better for this application than 5wt.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Motorex 2.5wt is better for this application than 5wt.
    Really you can use any 3wt you wish but as I said push recommends using motorex 5wt as that is what they use in their shop and that is what they used for all of their testing and settings and it's what it says to use on the install instructions. Yea the 2.5wt is more of a damper fluid but push says right in their install directions 5wt motorex so that is what I used. They said a 3wt will be fine but the recommended settings may be off by a click, I called them.

  31. #31
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    There we go, some useful info, thank you very much guys for sharing all this

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    Got a 2018 Lyrik RC 170mm fork and have the HC97 on the way...

    I'm all about hacking and tweaking, where is effort/money best spent here?

    Luftkappe (already have) vs debonair upgrade?
    Luftkappe and updated sealhead???

    SKF or Push wiper seals?

    Is it possible (worth while) to get the charger 2.1 piston/glide ring without buying a 2.1 damper?

    Charger 2.1 damper sealhead?

    Motorex 5wt vs. Maxima plush?
    Or WPL 2.5wt that I've got?

    Got a tub of slickolem, but can get the dynamic seal grease if it's worth it?

    Spectro Golden 7.5wt for the lowers or RS 0w-30?

  33. #33
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    Might answer my own question here... Get200hr charger 2 service kit:

    Updated damper seal head
    Updated air spring seal head
    SKF low friction wipers

    Not very clear on what you get for the damper glide ring?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Might answer my own question here... Get200hr charger 2 service kit:

    Updated damper seal head
    Updated air spring seal head
    SKF low friction wipers

    Not very clear on what you get for the damper glide ring?
    Glide ring on the rebound piston isn't available separately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Might answer my own question here... Get200hr charger 2 service kit:

    Updated damper seal head
    Updated air spring seal head
    SKF low friction wipers

    Not very clear on what you get for the damper glide ring?
    Iím not sure if the new seals are out yet. There is a new version of the SKF wipers (I was told around sept theyíd be available retail) and also the new damper seal will be available (and it is noticeably less drag by hand, not sure how much that really effects on trail). Unfortunately the rebound piston is not available and not worth buying an entire damper for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Might answer my own question here... Get200hr charger 2 service kit:

    Updated damper seal head
    Updated air spring seal head
    SKF low friction wipers

    Not very clear on what you get for the damper glide ring?
    The wipers and damper seal head are probably the same as what you already have, you will need a 2020 service kit to get the new versions and I'm not sure they are available yet.

    Rebound glide ring would need a whole new piston which I doubt will be available as a part ever but it's only a fractional gain there

    You already have the big one - the luftkappe, but a debonair sealhead is worthwhile so either buy the 2019 service kit and do it now if its due a service or wait for the 2020 kits to come out and do it then along with the new damper sealhead and dust wipers. But those are only incremental improvements compared top the luftkappe + HC97

    Definitely 0w-30 for the lowers or similar, the GS 7.5 is a damper oil and not as good lubricant

    Slickoleum still works great, it's the industry standard and I don't remember the Dynamic seal grease being that amazing but will give it another shot some time.

    All of those oils are great but if you have WPL 2.5 then use that
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Servicing in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/DVO service centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

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    Here's a vote for the Push wiper seals. I like the lip so that a ham-fisted DIY'r like me doesn't insert them too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Here's a vote for the Push wiper seals. I like the lip so that a ham-fisted DIY'r like me doesn't insert them too far.
    I do think that is a nice fool proof design and unsure why everything has moved away from flanged seals but I donít think weíve seen any test data to see how the friction truly compares to each other and I have a hard time thinking SKF doesnít make a great seal (since that is their specialty).

    The Push seals seem a little vague, like who designed them for example is it Push design or did Push give the application design and then a major player designed the seal for their needs? Iíd be more inclined to trust the later. No disrespect to Push but I donít think seal design is their main game (a great chef who makes the best steaks in the world may not be able to cook a great salmon fillet, or a great heart surgeon may not make the best foot surgeon etc). So without more info and so many other aftermarket, racing bros, enduro just to name a few that donít seem to be an improvement Iím not sure how much there is to be gained over the ďnewĒ stock SKF.

  39. #39
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    I'm 99% sure SKF makes the push seals and they are the best seals I have used. They go on all my bikes at the first service.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  40. #40
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    Thanks

    Sounds like wait until the 2020 service kit comes out on all the small parts.

    I have the Luftkappe from a 160mm Pike. It was too progressive for me and I liked the Debonair spring more. Is the 170mm Lyrik going to be a similar situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Thanks

    Sounds like wait until the 2020 service kit comes out on all the small parts.

    I have the Luftkappe from a 160mm Pike. It was too progressive for me and I liked the Debonair spring more. Is the 170mm Lyrik going to be a similar situation?
    I would think so but the person to ask would be Steve at Vorsprung, heís pretty honest about the stuff he makes. I went with debonair on my 170 Lyrik because after feeling my friend 150 pike I felt it would be too progressive for me as well. Iíve been hoping he would make a luftkappe for the debonair with a smaller dome that way it can have the advantage of the larger surface area under the piston and use a pneumatic top out and yet maybe not eat into the positive chamber so much (since the net volume would be increased by the rod already). Something similar to the EVOL versions, but yet still nothing maybe it just wouldnít work how Iím thinking.

    Not apples to apples since theyíre different forks but I would say the luftkappe on my friends 2014 150mm pike does have a little less breakaway force than my 2018 debonair Lyrik, not that the Lyrik is bad though and Iím not sure how much it would really show when actually riding in the rough I actually think it might be more noticeable in the technical climbs since the wheel is more eager to move. But heís had to run a lot lower psi because the luftkappe is too progressive so now his mid stroke is weak again and essentially ruins the whole point of it. So for me the debonair is still the way to go, but if he somehow mixed the two characteristics Iíd be interested.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Definitely 0w-30 for the lowers or similar, the GS 7.5 is a damper oil and not as good lubricant
    Thought Spectro 7.5wt (125/150) was supposed to be good for the lowers as it has crap VI rating and was more of a lube than damper oil?

    Sorry to go slightly off topic, but I figure at least some HC97 buyers will be in a similar situation of looking at a complete rebuild with it.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Thought Spectro 7.5wt (125/150) was supposed to be good for the lowers as it has crap VI rating and was more of a lube than damper oil?

    Sorry to go slightly off topic, but I figure at least some HC97 buyers will be in a similar situation of looking at a complete rebuild with it.
    GS 7.5 is more of an open fork cartridge oil so itís split duty of damper oil and lubrication. With a closed damper your only focus on lower leg oil is for lubrication so an engine oil (the 0-30) makes the most sense to me since engine oils primary job is lubrication of bushings (or forming a barrier to be more specific).

  44. #44
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    The Push seals seem a little vague, like who designed them for example is it Push design or did Push give the application design and then a major player designed the seal for their needs? Iíd be more inclined to trust the later. No disrespect to Push but I donít think seal design is their main game (a great chef who makes the best steaks in the world may not be able to cook a great salmon fillet, or a great heart surgeon may not make the best foot surgeon etc). So without more info and so many other aftermarket, racing bros, enduro just to name a few that donít seem to be an improvement Iím not sure how much there is to be gained over the ďnewĒ stock SKF.
    We work very closely with a household name in seals for all of our applications. Because our fork seals are an aftermarket product we can use materials and designs that the OE companies won't spring for financially. So while we all use the same company, we use the more expensive materials and mold designs in the vendors library for making ours. This means, increases in service life while having decreased friction. You won't find a more durable, lower friction, more well made fork seal than ours. Because we do put a significant amount of our own resources into the product, they're branded as PUSH, not the vendor.

    Darren

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Thought Spectro 7.5wt (125/150) was supposed to be good for the lowers as it has crap VI rating and was more of a lube than damper oil?

    Sorry to go slightly off topic, but I figure at least some HC97 buyers will be in a similar situation of looking at a complete rebuild with it.
    We do offer this as well: https://www.pushindustries.com/colle...eg-service-kit

    Darren

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    GS 7.5 is more of an open fork cartridge oil so itís split duty of damper oil and lubrication. With a closed damper your only focus on lower leg oil is for lubrication so an engine oil (the 0-30) makes the most sense to me since engine oils primary job is lubrication of bushings (or forming a barrier to be more specific).
    Yes the spectro oils do better in an open bath application with lots of oil (compared to a "cartridge" or shock oil with high VI), but a dedicated lower lubricant is what works best in a sealed cartridge fork
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Servicing in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/DVO service centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    We work very closely with a household name in seals for all of our applications. Because our fork seals are an aftermarket product we can use materials and designs that the OE companies won't spring for financially. So while we all use the same company, we use the more expensive materials and mold designs in the vendors library for making ours. This means, increases in service life while having decreased friction. You won't find a more durable, lower friction, more well made fork seal than ours. Because we do put a significant amount of our own resources into the product, they're branded as PUSH, not the vendor.

    Darren
    I did not want to say anything because I wasnít sure but now that you said it ...

    A bit like many people here Iíve tried different fork seals and in short the Push seals greatly reduce the breakaway force to start moving, they glide instantly, super smooth ... and donít start to stick after a while.

    If I had to rate them it would be.

    1 - Push
    2 - RacingBros
    3 - Enduro
    4 - SKF
    5 - Stock (OEM)

    FYI: If you use an air spring they are definitely worth it. If you use a coil, keep your money as they donít make much difference. There is no need for the seals to keep 70psi or more from escaping ... and the friction is greatly decreased

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    We work very closely with a household name in seals for all of our applications. Because our fork seals are an aftermarket product we can use materials and designs that the OE companies won't spring for financially. So while we all use the same company, we use the more expensive materials and mold designs in the vendors library for making ours. This means, increases in service life while having decreased friction. You won't find a more durable, lower friction, more well made fork seal than ours. Because we do put a significant amount of our own resources into the product, they're branded as PUSH, not the vendor.

    Darren
    So is this a situation where you give the seal manufacturer what the usage is for and the dimensions of the stanchion and seal bore and then they determine the best seal for the job with costs as no concern? Meaning it is their design but designed with no costs limitations. I see they are moly impregnated which is promising.

    Does Push have any comparative drag test so we can get a % friction reduction vs stock?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    So is this a situation where you give the seal manufacturer what the usage is for and the dimensions of the stanchion and seal bore and then they determine the best seal for the job with costs as no concern? Meaning it is their design but designed with no costs limitations. I see they are moly impregnated which is promising.

    Does Push have any comparative drag test so we can get a % friction reduction vs stock?
    The engineers at the seal manufacturer definitely do the heavy lifting as they have the expertise for sure. Oddly enough, we do have seal drag data, but it was from so long ago that I'm not sure what we did with it!

    I do know that in some cases other brands had lower friction than ours upon installation. Where we take a large lead is after 4-6 hours of use. We use an additional inner sealing lip that you won't find in other brands, as well as a different retaining spring. We're able to do this without performance compromise due to the material we use.

    Darren

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    The engineers at the seal manufacturer definitely do the heavy lifting as they have the expertise for sure. Oddly enough, we do have seal drag data, but it was from so long ago that I'm not sure what we did with it!

    I do know that in some cases other brands had lower friction than ours upon installation. Where we take a large lead is after 4-6 hours of use. We use an additional inner sealing lip that you won't find in other brands, as well as a different retaining spring. We're able to do this without performance compromise due to the material we use.

    Darren
    Well a lot has changed in the last few years too as far as seals go (no more terrible grey Rockshox seals etc...). Iíd be interested in how they compare to more modern seals like the newest SKF, if there was a way to do a drag test after the 4-6 hrs of use and they came out on top then I would put an order in.

  51. #51
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    I broke my neck in 96. I was paralyzed from the neck down. Miraculously, I got a lot of my former facility back. However, the right side of my body remains significantly limited in strength compared to my left. In addition, I have difficulty making a fist and therefore securing my meat suit to a bike. I LOVE MTB. I'm completely addicted. In order to ride bikes, I have my rear brake mounted 'moto-style'. On my weak side, I kind-of wedge my right thumb in between the waffles of my grip, and am somehow able to hang on for the ride. This inhibits me from using my front brake in most situations. I oft have to gamble: remove my right hand from the bar and roll my fist back to reach the front lever, or hang on for dear life. Or...go for the brake...hard-brake till the last second, take my hand off the bar again, and i'm back on the grip. If the hole is big...I need to be on the grip 100%.

    Sorry for the back story. The point is, I am VERY sensitive to harshness at the front of the bike. And...my Pike feels like garbage...a lot of the time. I realize this sounds like hyperbole...most of my friend can't believe it: I service my fork every 3-4 weeks. I've tried everything i can glean from the interwebs. Light shim / rebound tune from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5u8HsVrNE, updated air spring, high pressure, low pressure, tire inserts, on and on. I've run as little as 35psi, up to 50psi, according to my pump. No matter what, that compression adjustment feels worse when it is not fully open.. At least the rebound isn't full open now (with the light shim arrangement). I read: "Why can't I tune my stock suspension to work!" from Avalanche's site and was blown away...this is exactly my battle!!

    I weigh 163-ish geared up, and despite the injury, I fancy myself as a very advanced / aggressive rider. I raced a little bit...kinda over that though. I'm old and don't like to jump (cause chickens with bad necks can't fly). But, I like to ride fast and on very rough trails. I can't believe I can't have a fork that feels great on a smoother Santa Cruz kind of trails, while also feeling great in the Sierra Nevada white knuckle super chunk where i ride most often.

    To make things worse, I have an outdated bike that I do not want to replace. The Nomad 3 feels like heaven to me (despite the fork), and I am going to ride it till it breaks. The thing feels like an extension of my body. And, my next bike would just mimic that geo anyway (I think bikes are getting too long). Something has to change though. I am sick of feeling like I am holding a jackhammer all the time. The Float X2 feels amazing but the front is awful quite often. For future proofing, I am considering purchasing a Boost Lyrik RC which I will sadly need to aftermarket modify. I have read through the mile long mtbr threads / arguments, and I am still at a loss as to what to do. Some of the comments about the Push option(s) make it sound a little hard off the top still.

    Can someone convince me the HC97 would be a better approach than the ultra pricy Avalanche cartridge? Is there another choice? Or, is Rockshox even the best approach for my situation? I like RS cause they are easy to tear apart. I'm leary to move to coil. Added weight is an issue since it is difficult to man-handle the bike in the rocks with my hand...and there is the fact that it mars up the inside of the fork - so no going back to air. I need to stay higher in the travel for the big holes and rocks, without my hands rattling off on the small chatter...while not feeling like the fork is riged when I hit a 6" etc. bump. That first hit can be SO harsh right now!! At this point, that harshness is distracting from my ride....

    Any constructive insight and advice is welcomed! (Sorry for the ultra long post)
    Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion man.

  52. #52
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    ^^^hard to beat a good coil fork for overall plushness and less stiction.
    My lyrik coil u-turn was the best fork I ever had (currently on Pike rct3)

    Cool story BTW, unfortunate as it may be. Makes me want to go out and ride right now.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainvonawesome View Post
    I broke my neck in 96. I was paralyzed from the neck down. Miraculously, I got a lot of my former facility back. However, the right side of my body remains significantly limited in strength compared to my left. In addition, I have difficulty making a fist and therefore securing my meat suit to a bike. I LOVE MTB. I'm completely addicted. In order to ride bikes, I have my rear brake mounted 'moto-style'. On my weak side, I kind-of wedge my right thumb in between the waffles of my grip, and am somehow able to hang on for the ride. This inhibits me from using my front brake in most situations. I oft have to gamble: remove my right hand from the bar and roll my fist back to reach the front lever, or hang on for dear life. Or...go for the brake...hard-brake till the last second, take my hand off the bar again, and i'm back on the grip. If the hole is big...I need to be on the grip 100%.

    Sorry for the back story. The point is, I am VERY sensitive to harshness at the front of the bike. And...my Pike feels like garbage...a lot of the time. I realize this sounds like hyperbole...most of my friend can't believe it: I service my fork every 3-4 weeks. I've tried everything i can glean from the interwebs. Light shim / rebound tune from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5u8HsVrNE, updated air spring, high pressure, low pressure, tire inserts, on and on. I've run as little as 35psi, up to 50psi, according to my pump. No matter what, that compression adjustment feels worse when it is not fully open.. At least the rebound isn't full open now (with the light shim arrangement). I read: "Why can't I tune my stock suspension to work!" from Avalanche's site and was blown away...this is exactly my battle!!

    I weigh 163-ish geared up, and despite the injury, I fancy myself as a very advanced / aggressive rider. I raced a little bit...kinda over that though. I'm old and don't like to jump (cause chickens with bad necks can't fly). But, I like to ride fast and on very rough trails. I can't believe I can't have a fork that feels great on a smoother Santa Cruz kind of trails, while also feeling great in the Sierra Nevada white knuckle super chunk where i ride most often.

    To make things worse, I have an outdated bike that I do not want to replace. The Nomad 3 feels like heaven to me (despite the fork), and I am going to ride it till it breaks. The thing feels like an extension of my body. And, my next bike would just mimic that geo anyway (I think bikes are getting too long). Something has to change though. I am sick of feeling like I am holding a jackhammer all the time. The Float X2 feels amazing but the front is awful quite often. For future proofing, I am considering purchasing a Boost Lyrik RC which I will sadly need to aftermarket modify. I have read through the mile long mtbr threads / arguments, and I am still at a loss as to what to do. Some of the comments about the Push option(s) make it sound a little hard off the top still.

    Can someone convince me the HC97 would be a better approach than the ultra pricy Avalanche cartridge? Is there another choice? Or, is Rockshox even the best approach for my situation? I like RS cause they are easy to tear apart. I'm leary to move to coil. Added weight is an issue since it is difficult to man-handle the bike in the rocks with my hand...and there is the fact that it mars up the inside of the fork - so no going back to air. I need to stay higher in the travel for the big holes and rocks, without my hands rattling off on the small chatter...while not feeling like the fork is riged when I hit a 6" etc. bump. That first hit can be SO harsh right now!! At this point, that harshness is distracting from my ride....

    Any constructive insight and advice is welcomed! (Sorry for the ultra long post)
    Yours is a unique case that I would like to offer a different solution to. Please reach out to me directly at [email protected].

    Darren

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainvonawesome View Post
    I broke my neck in 96. I was paralyzed from the neck down. Miraculously, I got a lot of my former facility back. However, the right side of my body remains significantly limited in strength compared to my left. In addition, I have difficulty making a fist and therefore securing my meat suit to a bike. I LOVE MTB. I'm completely addicted. In order to ride bikes, I have my rear brake mounted 'moto-style'. On my weak side, I kind-of wedge my right thumb in between the waffles of my grip, and am somehow able to hang on for the ride. This inhibits me from using my front brake in most situations. I oft have to gamble: remove my right hand from the bar and roll my fist back to reach the front lever, or hang on for dear life. Or...go for the brake...hard-brake till the last second, take my hand off the bar again, and i'm back on the grip. If the hole is big...I need to be on the grip 100%.

    Sorry for the back story. The point is, I am VERY sensitive to harshness at the front of the bike. And...my Pike feels like garbage...a lot of the time. I realize this sounds like hyperbole...most of my friend can't believe it: I service my fork every 3-4 weeks. I've tried everything i can glean from the interwebs. Light shim / rebound tune from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5u8HsVrNE, updated air spring, high pressure, low pressure, tire inserts, on and on. I've run as little as 35psi, up to 50psi, according to my pump. No matter what, that compression adjustment feels worse when it is not fully open.. At least the rebound isn't full open now (with the light shim arrangement). I read: "Why can't I tune my stock suspension to work!" from Avalanche's site and was blown away...this is exactly my battle!!

    I weigh 163-ish geared up, and despite the injury, I fancy myself as a very advanced / aggressive rider. I raced a little bit...kinda over that though. I'm old and don't like to jump (cause chickens with bad necks can't fly). But, I like to ride fast and on very rough trails. I can't believe I can't have a fork that feels great on a smoother Santa Cruz kind of trails, while also feeling great in the Sierra Nevada white knuckle super chunk where i ride most often.

    To make things worse, I have an outdated bike that I do not want to replace. The Nomad 3 feels like heaven to me (despite the fork), and I am going to ride it till it breaks. The thing feels like an extension of my body. And, my next bike would just mimic that geo anyway (I think bikes are getting too long). Something has to change though. I am sick of feeling like I am holding a jackhammer all the time. The Float X2 feels amazing but the front is awful quite often. For future proofing, I am considering purchasing a Boost Lyrik RC which I will sadly need to aftermarket modify. I have read through the mile long mtbr threads / arguments, and I am still at a loss as to what to do. Some of the comments about the Push option(s) make it sound a little hard off the top still.

    Can someone convince me the HC97 would be a better approach than the ultra pricy Avalanche cartridge? Is there another choice? Or, is Rockshox even the best approach for my situation? I like RS cause they are easy to tear apart. I'm leary to move to coil. Added weight is an issue since it is difficult to man-handle the bike in the rocks with my hand...and there is the fact that it mars up the inside of the fork - so no going back to air. I need to stay higher in the travel for the big holes and rocks, without my hands rattling off on the small chatter...while not feeling like the fork is riged when I hit a 6" etc. bump. That first hit can be SO harsh right now!! At this point, that harshness is distracting from my ride....

    Any constructive insight and advice is welcomed! (Sorry for the ultra long post)
    If your gonna buy a lyrik and a hc97 you might be better off buying a fox grip or something else. I have read that a stock lyrik is a bit more plush then a pike, if you got 170 you have a bigger air chamber I believe but I think the dampers are pretty much the same thing. I'm enjoying my hc97, I am still playing with my settings but I am getting close. The recommended settings are a little off for me although I used dynamic grease and ow30 in my top air spring chamber so it might be a little off plus I have a 2.1 damper so guessing their recommended settings were found on a 2.0 damper. I had to turn my rebound and comperssion down a few clicks from the recomended settings and I can say it def feels better then the stock damper. It does ride higher and I am almost 15psi below rockshox suggestion and I have been ridding pretty ruff square edged rock hit trails. There is no question it helps. I suggest you message darren and listen to what he has to say. Are you currently on a v2 damper? You have the new debon airspring? You could try dynamic grease and ow3 on the airspring and 3wt plush damper oil, those are things the 2020 pike has. Also you didn't mention if your pike is boost because the hc97 only works with a pike for with boost.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainvonawesome View Post
    I broke my neck in 96. I was paralyzed from the neck down. Miraculously, I got a lot of my former facility back. However, the right side of my body remains significantly limited in strength compared to my left. In addition, I have difficulty making a fist and therefore securing my meat suit to a bike. I LOVE MTB. I'm completely addicted. In order to ride bikes, I have my rear brake mounted 'moto-style'. On my weak side, I kind-of wedge my right thumb in between the waffles of my grip, and am somehow able to hang on for the ride. This inhibits me from using my front brake in most situations. I oft have to gamble: remove my right hand from the bar and roll my fist back to reach the front lever, or hang on for dear life. Or...go for the brake...hard-brake till the last second, take my hand off the bar again, and i'm back on the grip. If the hole is big...I need to be on the grip 100%.

    Sorry for the back story. The point is, I am VERY sensitive to harshness at the front of the bike. And...my Pike feels like garbage...a lot of the time. I realize this sounds like hyperbole...most of my friend can't believe it: I service my fork every 3-4 weeks. I've tried everything i can glean from the interwebs. Light shim / rebound tune from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5u8HsVrNE, updated air spring, high pressure, low pressure, tire inserts, on and on. I've run as little as 35psi, up to 50psi, according to my pump. No matter what, that compression adjustment feels worse when it is not fully open.. At least the rebound isn't full open now (with the light shim arrangement). I read: "Why can't I tune my stock suspension to work!" from Avalanche's site and was blown away...this is exactly my battle!!

    I weigh 163-ish geared up, and despite the injury, I fancy myself as a very advanced / aggressive rider. I raced a little bit...kinda over that though. I'm old and don't like to jump (cause chickens with bad necks can't fly). But, I like to ride fast and on very rough trails. I can't believe I can't have a fork that feels great on a smoother Santa Cruz kind of trails, while also feeling great in the Sierra Nevada white knuckle super chunk where i ride most often.

    To make things worse, I have an outdated bike that I do not want to replace. The Nomad 3 feels like heaven to me (despite the fork), and I am going to ride it till it breaks. The thing feels like an extension of my body. And, my next bike would just mimic that geo anyway (I think bikes are getting too long). Something has to change though. I am sick of feeling like I am holding a jackhammer all the time. The Float X2 feels amazing but the front is awful quite often. For future proofing, I am considering purchasing a Boost Lyrik RC which I will sadly need to aftermarket modify. I have read through the mile long mtbr threads / arguments, and I am still at a loss as to what to do. Some of the comments about the Push option(s) make it sound a little hard off the top still.

    Can someone convince me the HC97 would be a better approach than the ultra pricy Avalanche cartridge? Is there another choice? Or, is Rockshox even the best approach for my situation? I like RS cause they are easy to tear apart. I'm leary to move to coil. Added weight is an issue since it is difficult to man-handle the bike in the rocks with my hand...and there is the fact that it mars up the inside of the fork - so no going back to air. I need to stay higher in the travel for the big holes and rocks, without my hands rattling off on the small chatter...while not feeling like the fork is riged when I hit a 6" etc. bump. That first hit can be SO harsh right now!! At this point, that harshness is distracting from my ride....

    Any constructive insight and advice is welcomed! (Sorry for the ultra long post)
    The pike isn't great for aggressive/rough riding, mainly because of the air spring so I would only stick with it if you go coil. I don't see any reason why you couldn't swap the spring and damper so you are only marring up the damper leg so it can go back to air later. A coil kit is about the same weight as an avalanche damper and the spring is the most important thing to sort first, as well as friction so a full service and bushing resize would go a long way too.

    Failing that, I would suggest a Lyrik as the best upgrade, they are the most sensitive forks off-the shelf and would best serve your purposes
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Servicing in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/DVO service centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainvonawesome View Post
    I broke my neck in 96. I was paralyzed from the neck down. Miraculously, I got a lot of my former facility back. However, the right side of my body remains significantly limited in strength compared to my left. In addition, I have difficulty making a fist and therefore securing my meat suit to a bike. I LOVE MTB. I'm completely addicted. In order to ride bikes, I have my rear brake mounted 'moto-style'. On my weak side, I kind-of wedge my right thumb in between the waffles of my grip, and am somehow able to hang on for the ride. This inhibits me from using my front brake in most situations. I oft have to gamble: remove my right hand from the bar and roll my fist back to reach the front lever, or hang on for dear life. Or...go for the brake...hard-brake till the last second, take my hand off the bar again, and i'm back on the grip. If the hole is big...I need to be on the grip 100%.

    Sorry for the back story. The point is, I am VERY sensitive to harshness at the front of the bike. And...my Pike feels like garbage...a lot of the time. I realize this sounds like hyperbole...most of my friend can't believe it: I service my fork every 3-4 weeks. I've tried everything i can glean from the interwebs. Light shim / rebound tune from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5u8HsVrNE, updated air spring, high pressure, low pressure, tire inserts, on and on. I've run as little as 35psi, up to 50psi, according to my pump. No matter what, that compression adjustment feels worse when it is not fully open.. At least the rebound isn't full open now (with the light shim arrangement). I read: "Why can't I tune my stock suspension to work!" from Avalanche's site and was blown away...this is exactly my battle!!

    I weigh 163-ish geared up, and despite the injury, I fancy myself as a very advanced / aggressive rider. I raced a little bit...kinda over that though. I'm old and don't like to jump (cause chickens with bad necks can't fly). But, I like to ride fast and on very rough trails. I can't believe I can't have a fork that feels great on a smoother Santa Cruz kind of trails, while also feeling great in the Sierra Nevada white knuckle super chunk where i ride most often.

    To make things worse, I have an outdated bike that I do not want to replace. The Nomad 3 feels like heaven to me (despite the fork), and I am going to ride it till it breaks. The thing feels like an extension of my body. And, my next bike would just mimic that geo anyway (I think bikes are getting too long). Something has to change though. I am sick of feeling like I am holding a jackhammer all the time. The Float X2 feels amazing but the front is awful quite often. For future proofing, I am considering purchasing a Boost Lyrik RC which I will sadly need to aftermarket modify. I have read through the mile long mtbr threads / arguments, and I am still at a loss as to what to do. Some of the comments about the Push option(s) make it sound a little hard off the top still.

    Can someone convince me the HC97 would be a better approach than the ultra pricy Avalanche cartridge? Is there another choice? Or, is Rockshox even the best approach for my situation? I like RS cause they are easy to tear apart. I'm leary to move to coil. Added weight is an issue since it is difficult to man-handle the bike in the rocks with my hand...and there is the fact that it mars up the inside of the fork - so no going back to air. I need to stay higher in the travel for the big holes and rocks, without my hands rattling off on the small chatter...while not feeling like the fork is riged when I hit a 6" etc. bump. That first hit can be SO harsh right now!! At this point, that harshness is distracting from my ride....

    Any constructive insight and advice is welcomed! (Sorry for the ultra long post)
    as Darren said contact him directly he will walk you through any questions (even if not his product). While air springs have come a long long way and even I as a die hard coil for life am now on air/air on one bike and air/coil on my DH in your case I'm thinking nothing is going to work other than coil but Darren will set you up the rest of us are just speculating. Although I'm betting Darren's different solution is mid valve tuning lol! I probably shouldn't have done that but Darren did recommend the single malt.

  57. #57
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    Reputation: captainvonawesome's Avatar
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    OK, I guess I am now fairly convinced I should move to a coil. Thanks for all the input guys.
    Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion man.

  58. #58
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    Reputation: bertrenolds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    as Darren said contact him directly he will walk you through any questions (even if not his product). While air springs have come a long long way and even I as a die hard coil for life am now on air/air on one bike and air/coil on my DH in your case I'm thinking nothing is going to work other than coil but Darren will set you up the rest of us are just speculating. Although I'm betting Darren's different solution is mid valve tuning lol! I probably shouldn't have done that but Darren did recommend the single malt.
    Def needs a midvalve tune!

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