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  1. #1
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Leaked by NSDynamics in a story on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsdynamicsmtb/

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-2019.04.16-nsdynamics-instagram-story.jpg

    Support page not up yet: https://www.pushindustries.com/pages/hc97-support

    Got news for us Darren? @PUSHIND
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  2. #2
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    Been waiting for the official newsm but found this

    ELEVENSIX compression valve technology for your fork, providing smooth plush ride without being too mushy
    Pressure balanced symmetrical flow rate for increased traction and control
    "Shim-less" high speed compression valve for seamless and smooth damping force in consectuive bumps
    28 clicks of external low speed and 28 clicks of high speed damping
    Includes rebound revalve
    Compatible with all Lyrik, Pike and Boxxer RCT3 and RC2 Charger2 damper cartridge forks

  3. #3
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    Not long now until the official press release!

  4. #4
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    I got to check one of these out at my LBS. Makes me wish i still had my pike rc with my acs3 kit.

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    I got to check one of these out at my LBS. Makes me wish i still had my pike rc with my acs3 kit.
    edit - waiting for official release.

  6. #6
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  7. #7
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    Subscribed. I've got an ACS3 equipped Pike... will consider this upgrade once I hear more about it.
    =sParty
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    We get old because we quit riding.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    edit - waiting for official release.
    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Be patient 24hrs. Obviously, this wasn't meant to be leaked.

    Darren
    Indeed. I only saw this thing because I was sitting in the service room having a beer at my lbs and picked up a random box on top of their recent push shipment. I was sworn to no photos, but I can say with confidence... this thing is awesome and is worthy of the push name and is exactly what you'd expect coming from them.

    Stoked on this product, can't wait to get firm details. Just playing with the clickers and looking at the product has me impressed. There is another item that goes along with this that I really, really, really want to ask about and get more info on. I anxiously await the release to see what that's all about.

  9. #9
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    Woot - heard it was launching today. Perfect timing for my fork rebuild

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Be patient 24hrs. Obviously, this wasn't meant to be leaked.

    Darren
    Australian time-zone strikes again!
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  11. #11
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    Normally I like leaks, but coming from a competitor, it feels like a total dick move.
    Anyway, looking forward to the official release tomorrow.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Normally I like leaks, but coming from a competitor, it feels like a total dick move.
    Anyway, looking forward to the official release tomorrow.
    I believe NS Dynamics is the Auz place for Push.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    I believe NS Dynamics is the Auz place for Push.
    NS Dynamics didn't post on MTBR.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    NS Dynamics didn't post on MTBR.
    Let me introduce you to a thing called the internet.

    It's a worldwide network of computers for rapid sharing of information and media. If you post anything to a public internet site, it's leaked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    Normally I like leaks, but coming from a competitor, it feels like a total dick move.
    Anyway, looking forward to the official release tomorrow.
    I hear thereís no such thing as bad press.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkblazer View Post
    Compatible with all Lyrik, Pike and Boxxer RCT3 and RC2 Charger2 damper cartridge forks
    Lots of people with Charger 1 wainting for it as well!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stereo007 View Post
    Lots of people with Charger 1 wainting for it as well!
    That an interesting detail. Lots of people with the moco want a Push damper too (they just donít know it yet). Also, if we know one thing about Push itís , so how much

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Also, if we know one thing about Push itís , so how much
    First time seeing that emoji, haha.

    So who is PUSH anyways? I knew the company and the founder, Darren Murphy (honestly thought there was another guy, but guess I'm thinking Canfield Bros), but I like to see personal credit to the problem-solving people behind the products. I don't consider PUSH products made by Darren and Bob 2019, to be the same as PUSH products made by Darren and Michael 2012 (Bob and Michael are fictitious names). Just wondering why this matters and needs attention, as I can't see why people are hyped up so much based on just 1 picture and a few words. State-of-the-art workshop and instrumentation, I can see being reason behind the high prices.

  19. #19
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    Push released the first $1200 shock with levers on it. So everyone assumed itís the best shock you can buy. Push has bling credit at the trail head, so that has created hype. I have no personal experience, but I love the idea of aftermarket solutions to oem damper problems!

  20. #20
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    Darren, where's the love for Fox 36? Available for RS offerings only?

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

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    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...tml#cid2242469

    Curious to hear people's thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Let me introduce you to a thing called the internet.

    It's a worldwide network of computers for rapid sharing of information and media. If you post anything to a public internet site, it's leaked.
    The majority of people here wouldn't have seen this if you hadn't posted it. You may not be at fault for the leak, but that doesn't excuse you for propagating it well beyond the smaller audience it was leaked to.

    I appreciate your feedback in the threads on this board, you provide good info, but posting this was scummy.

  24. #24
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    HC97 is a winner !

    I've had the privilege of running this in my Pike for a few months now, with ACS3 on the spring side, and the performance upgrade from stock is substantial.

    Performance on repetitive hits, such as stutter/braking bumps, is where HC97 shines brightest. The fork just floats over this stuff now, and gone is the herky-jerky chattering of the stock damper. And the adjustments truly let me dial in the ride to my liking, although the settings from factory were essentially spot-on.

    last night I rode my 36 with ACS3 and PUSH tuned damper on my other bike, and I frankly found myself missing my Pike -which is not something I'd have said back in January.

  25. #25
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    The majority of people here wouldn't have seen this if you hadn't posted it. You may not be at fault for the leak, but that doesn't excuse you for propagating it well beyond the smaller audience it was leaked to.

    I appreciate your feedback in the threads on this board, you provide good info, but posting this was scummy.
    Thatís an extremely harsh and super lame reaction to an innocuous post. If anything he was adding to whatever little hype there is about this product. What makes you the official embargo police? If Dougal was ignoring an embargo he received just to post on mtbr that would be questionable, but Iím assuming Push didnít send him one so

    By the way Darren himself has been dropping information about this product in other threads for almost a month. Check the Charger 2 tuning thread.

  26. #26
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    Interesting...
    So quick question, if I were to plan to upgrade my Yari RC, I would need the following;
    - RCT3 or RC Charger 2 damper
    - HC97
    I could not get away with just the RCT3/Charger2 rebound shaft and seal head correct, the full damper assembly is needed.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Thatís an extremely harsh and super lame reaction to an innocuous post. If anything he was adding to whatever little hype there is about this product. What makes you the official embargo police? If Dougal was ignoring an embargo he received just to post on mtbr that would be questionable, but Iím assuming Push didnít send him one so

    By the way Darren himself has been dropping information about this product in other threads for almost a month. Check the Charger 2 tuning thread.
    I wasn't gonna say anything and was just going to gloss over this thread, thinking it to myself, until I saw his justification for further propagating the leak was basically "because internet".

    I realized Darren has been posting a lot of information on that thread and I've been following it, I have found it very interesting. I think that's part of why it irks me, he's been fairly generous with information on that thread, to have this accidental leak propagated further, particularly by a competitor, is sleazy. I can imagine it's frustrating to work on something, then have incomplete details leaked (or propagated) the day before launch, by a competitor, especially as a small shop.

    Not really worth arguing about, I just thought it was worth clarifying that the existence of the internet and a leak doesn't justify further propagation of it.

  28. #28
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    On a more constructive note, will there be an option to purchase a full damper assembly with this already installed?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    HC97 is a winner !

    I've had the privilege of running this in my Pike for a few months now, with ACS3 on the spring side, and the performance upgrade from stock is substantial.

    Performance on repetitive hits, such as stutter/braking bumps, is where HC97 shines brightest. The fork just floats over this stuff now, and gone is the herky-jerky chattering of the stock damper. And the adjustments truly let me dial in the ride to my liking, although the settings from factory were essentially spot-on.

    last night I rode my 36 with ACS3 and PUSH tuned damper on my other bike, and I frankly found myself missing my Pike -which is not something I'd have said back in January.
    Very cool. With the LSC turned all the way up how close is the fork to having a full lockout? Asking for a friend who likes to stand up while climbing.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Very cool. With the LSC turned all the way up how close is the fork to having a full lockout? Asking for a friend who likes to stand up while climbing.
    It's definitely firm with LSC closed but I haven't tried it as you describe, as that's not my style of riding and I like my fork to be active.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    It's definitely firm with LSC closed but I haven't tried it as you describe, as that's not my style of riding and I like my fork to be active.
    With LSC closed does it feel more firm than the stock damper?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    With LSC closed does it feel more firm than the stock damper?
    I can't really say. I never ran stock with LSC closed and I no longer have a fork with a stock damper !

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Interesting...
    So quick question, if I were to plan to upgrade my Yari RC, I would need the following;
    - RCT3 or RC Charger 2 damper
    - HC97
    I could not get away with just the RCT3/Charger2 rebound shaft and seal head correct, the full damper assembly is needed.
    Yes you will need a complete damper, the Yari doesn't share any damper parts and Rockshox don't sell anything other than complete dampers anyway
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Yes you will need a complete damper, the Yari doesn't share any damper parts and Rockshox don't sell anything other than complete dampers anyway
    Right... I realized the answer when I looked up PUSH's disassembly/assembly instructions. Doesn't seem overly hard to do. Found a good deal on a full Charger damper so may have to spend some money soon and grab that. Most say that once you get to the technical terrain in flowy sections that is where the MoCo (YARI RC) gets overwhelmed quickly. Fortunately/Unfortunately that is a good portion of what I ride, so the debate is spend $200+ now on the Charger upgrade and another $250 down the road for the HC97, spend the $450+ down the road for an Avy Cartridge, or go with a completely different fork and suck it up for now (like the new Manitou Mezzer).

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Right... I realized the answer when I looked up PUSH's disassembly/assembly instructions. Doesn't seem overly hard to do. Found a good deal on a full Charger damper so may have to spend some money soon and grab that. Most say that once you get to the technical terrain in flowy sections that is where the MoCo (YARI RC) gets overwhelmed quickly. Fortunately/Unfortunately that is a good portion of what I ride, so the debate is spend $200+ now on the Charger upgrade and another $250 down the road for the HC97, spend the $450+ down the road for an Avy Cartridge, or go with a completely different fork and suck it up for now (like the new Manitou Mezzer).
    These are indeed your 3 best options. I think there should be a descent number of slightly used Charger 2 dampers available second hand when people start upgrading to the Charger 2.1.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    These are indeed your 3 best options. I think there should be a descent number of slightly used Charger 2 dampers available second hand when people start upgrading to the Charger 2.1.
    You might also be better off tuning one of the stock a charger dampers. Would be awesome to do some back to back testing! We can use my Avalanche equipped yari. Trying to get a friend to buy one of these for his pike.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    I can't really say. I never ran stock with LSC closed and I no longer have a fork with a stock damper !
    Could you please revert your fork to stock then run the comparison for me... errrr, my friend please? Thanks in advance!






    I'm going to have to just jump in and buy one I think.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    The majority of people here wouldn't have seen this if you hadn't posted it. You may not be at fault for the leak, but that doesn't excuse you for propagating it well beyond the smaller audience it was leaked to.

    I appreciate your feedback in the threads on this board, you provide good info, but posting this was scummy.
    When an official distributor with thousands of followers posts a picture of a product, it's out. They leaked it and the odds of it being planned are high.

    Scummy, seriously? It's like you (and Alexbn921) don't understand how marketing and controlled leaks work and are used in promotion.

    This has been dribbled out in segments for weeks now to build hype. With photos of individual components being posted. You should save your outrage and insults for things that matter.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny View Post
    It's a poppet and bleed system, just like the 11-6, Fox X2, CC-DB's etc. There are positives and negatives to that type of system.

    The HSC adjuster controls the breakaway point and the LSC controls the transition up to that point. It's a system that is more adjustable, but less tunable, than a shim stack setup.

    I'm sure they'll sell lots of them. Especially paired with the spring system so people can have matching caps.
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  40. #40
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    Will this upgrade work with the Charger 1 dampers?

  41. #41
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    The 11.6 does share the same "Shim-Less" valve system, but the other shocks use a shimmed poppet. The characteristics are quite different. There also is no "breakaway point" as you mentioned. Additionally, the system used in the HC97 actually offers more tuneability, not less than a shimmed system as you mentioned, which is why we built it this way.
    Aside for external adjustments what tuning options are you offering?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post

    It's firm, but not a lockout. The way the system works lends itself to have significantly more control then stock at low speeds.

    Darren
    Sold! Thanks for replying.

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    Ordered! Will install instructions be available through the website or supplied with the upgrade? Iím sure itís straightforward and Iíve rebuilt charger 2 before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niva1989 View Post
    Ordered! Will install instructions be available through the website or supplied with the upgrade? Iím sure itís straightforward and Iíve rebuilt charger 2 before.
    Instructions are on the website already under the Support page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Instructions are on the website already under the Support page.
    Thanks. I was using my phone to browse and it didnít show the dropdown options. All good now. Cheers 🍻

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    If only this were available for the Charger 1 damper?
    Or a simpler sort of thing to drop into a yari 🤔🙄🙄

    I'm a bit gutted that I'd have to buy a charger 2 damper, to then buy this kit.
    That's exactly the same money as an avalanche damper.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Dougal, with all due respect I don't think it's fair for you to comment on our design or what levels of performance or tuneability it has based on images you've seen on the internet.

    Darren
    I'm being completely fair and neutral. The only info anyone has right now is what you have published. If you have additional tuning info then now would be the perfect time to let everyone know. Different springs, poppets, base-valves maybe?

    We have got some nice high-res cutaway cad models but your website only shows one model HC97.
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  49. #49
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    Darren, I was surprised to see this poppet system is completely shimless, can you enlighten me with some insight?

    If the poppet has no shims, won't the "knee" in the force/velocity curve at HSC blowoff be quite sudden? Won't that introduce very digressive behavior?

    I am struggling to find a clear description about which shortcomings of the charger2 RC2 damper are being addressed and improved, beyond the better scaled LSC needle adjustments through the parabolic needle.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm being completely fair and neutral. The only info anyone has right now is what you have published. If you have additional tuning info then now would be the perfect time to let everyone know. Different springs, poppets, base-valves maybe?

    We have got some nice high-res cutaway cad models but your website only shows one model HC97.
    No real dog in this fight... but I gotta at least say something. I do appreciate your technical posts here in the suspension sub-forum dougal. However, in this case I gotta call you out. You may mean to come across as fair and neutral but in this case, it's coming across as trolling. I know you're making technical statements based on the semantics of the systems at play... but it comes across a bit like pot shots. Not saying that's your intent...

    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    Darren, I was surprised to see this poppet system is completely shimless, can you enlighten me with some insight?

    If the poppet has no shims, won't the "knee" in the force/velocity curve at HSC blowoff be quite sudden? Won't that introduce very digressive behavior?

    I am struggling to find a clear description about which shortcomings of the charger2 RC2 damper are being addressed and improved, beyond the better scaled LSC needle adjustments through the parabolic needle.
    I'm also interested. There is actually little info out there on shimless poppet valves and how they work in high end suspension products. I get how all this works in theory, but it's hard to wrap your head around how a system like this deals with varying fluid flow rates. I suppose maybe I just answered my own question. Damping (ideal damping circuits) is not position sensitive and is rather speed sensitive. To that end, no matter what your sprung mass is, or your resulting spring rate, shaft speeds and flow rates are largely within the same window for the particular application.

    I guess the bigger question is... if companies like push are able to produce a damper design that allows a large range of usable damping adjustment... why can't a massive company like rs? I suppose it's just production, specialization and market tolerance for the price point. A company like that isn't willing to go after high cost, small run (for them) top of the line products where no compromises are made.

    Whew, I got a little off topic there. Darren, I would for sure be interested in some more technical reading about these types of damping circuits. Even if it's not directly applicable to mountain bike suspension or w/e. I don't need any trade secrets here, but any generic info links you have where some one could read about these types of assemblies would be cool.

    If not... also cool. Maybe I just need to saddle up and get an 11/6 and try them out for myself. mmmmm 11/6 on my megatower. Has a nice ring to it.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm being completely fair and neutral. The only info anyone has right now is what you have published. If you have additional tuning info then now would be the perfect time to let everyone know. Different springs, poppets, base-valves maybe?

    We have got some nice high-res cutaway cad models but your website only shows one model HC97.
    LOL
    You won't even share a dyno graph or explain exactly what you think is wrong with the valving and you want a cad file for a newly developed product. There is zero chance you would share the same information.

    Darren, I too am interested in the function of this style of valve. Maybe a blog post on your site would be a better place for it though.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Thanks to everyone for being patient. This launch had a lot of moving parts that we were trying to coordinate.

    Yes. We also will have options to send in your whole fork, or just your damper cartridge for installation for riders who don't want to tackle it. Info should be loaded on the site by Friday.

    Darren
    Are you going to do another sexy video for us home hacks to install this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
    No real dog in this fight... but I gotta at least say something. I do appreciate your technical posts here in the suspension sub-forum dougal. However, in this case I gotta call you out. You may mean to come across as fair and neutral but in this case, it's coming across as trolling. I know you're making technical statements based on the semantics of the systems at play... but it comes across a bit like pot shots. Not saying that's your intent...
    Im kind of with you on this. This is the second thread in a couple weeks that Dougal has gotten in over his head trying to prove his knowledge. Darren has been more than patient. I appreciate a lot of the knowledge Dougal has shared here but at this point it is coming across as potshots to me as well. Now, the back-and-forth has lead to some of the most informative threads on MTBR (IMHO) and I hope that both Dougal and Push continue to be active here.

    For those with the original Charger: FAST 3-way charger kit is still a great option.

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    What are you guys talking about? Everything weíve learned is that the ultimate performance of this style of damper is limited by the adjuster design. Just because Push made it doesnít mean that the physics of it have changed. We have to ask the tough questions hoping to get whatever crumbs of info we can, otherwise weíre just sheep blindly buying whatever product has the most marketing hype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    The majority of people here wouldn't have seen this if you hadn't posted it. You may not be at fault for the leak, but that doesn't excuse you for propagating it well beyond the smaller audience it was leaked to.

    I appreciate your feedback in the threads on this board, you provide good info, but posting this was scummy.
    Scummy is a real strong word in this setting. Lots of scummy shit going on in the world.

    Don't really think leaking info about a mtb suspension parts 48hours before it's official qualifies as SCUMMY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    Darren, I was surprised to see this poppet system is completely shimless, can you enlighten me with some insight?

    If the poppet has no shims, won't the "knee" in the force/velocity curve at HSC blowoff be quite sudden? Won't that introduce very digressive behavior?

    I am struggling to find a clear description about which shortcomings of the charger2 RC2 damper are being addressed and improved, beyond the better scaled LSC needle adjustments through the parabolic needle.
    Darren will probably fill in some more detailed info but any valve design works on a combination of the size and shape of its ports. Hence why a shimmed design can still be inherently digressive or a poppet design can still have varied damping rates. Spring constant doesnít have a huge effect other than range of adjustment. This looks to have 3 small ports which has better control over the flow area than large ports

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    LOL
    You won't even share a dyno graph or explain exactly what you think is wrong with the valving and you want a cad file for a newly developed product. There is zero chance you would share the same information.

    Darren, I too am interested in the function of this style of valve. Maybe a blog post on your site would be a better place for it though.
    Alex you need to take a deep breath and go back and read what is actually written. No-one is talking about dyno plots or wanting cad files.

    Here is the cutaway CAD model rendering from the PUSH website:


    Poppets are simple and well understood things.
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    Am I right to think the Charger 2 RCT3 is eventually the same as the RC2 once you replace the head (compression) assembly with the HC97?!

    Just asking because the RTC3 is cheaper

    Cheers

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    Any ride reports from this past weekend yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    The HC97 is a completely different architecture and damping characteristic.

    I ripped it this weekend...it was incredible! Disclosure: My opinion my be incredibly bias.

    Darren
    Darren,

    Apologies if this info is out there somewhere , but in comparison to the rct3 ďrangeĒ of both hi and low speed compression, does the hc97 have a significantly wider range? I.e. fully open on lsc is less compression then the rct3, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Am I right to think the Charger 2 RCT3 is eventually the same as the RC2 once you replace the head (compression) assembly with the HC97?!

    Just asking because the RTC3 is cheaper

    Cheers
    The lower halves of the rct3 and rc2 are the same. So to answer your question yes both would end up the same once the HC97 is installed as it replaces the upper half of the dampers.

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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    The lower halves of the rct3 and rc2 are the same. So to answer your question yes both would end up the same once the HC97 is installed as it replaces the upper half of the dampers.
    Yeahhhh .... thank you very much for the reply!

    You understood the question correctly

    Now to get one even cheaper, hereís another question.

    Can I use the Charger2 made for the Pike in my Yari once I swap the compression assembly with the HC97?!

    Iím asking because itís a lot less expensive (I found one for half the price) so if once you swap the top part they are essentially the same that would great.

    Officially I would need this:

    00.4018.783.019
    Damper Upgrade Kit - CHARGER2 RCT3 Crown (Includes CompleteRight Side Internals) - LYRIK/YARI (A1-B1/2016+)

    But I found a very good deal on this:

    00.4018.783.018 / Damper Upgrade Kit - CHARGER2 RCT3 Crown (Includes Complete Right Side Internals) - PIKE 29"Boost 15x110 (A1-A2/2014-2017)

    Based on the previous question/answer (is the cartridge the same once you swap the head assembly / compression assembly with the HC97), I guess it would work fine.

    The difference between the 2 kits is just a different top cap size/threads. Right?!

    Just asking because Iím not 100% sure.

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    I wouldnít try that even if the damper body to top cap threads are the same. Unless you get confirmation from Darren that itíll work. The bladders have different part numbers and look like different lengths so I assume the hc97 assembly are different length as well. And of course your travel couldnít exceed the damper range despite your chassisí ability to (eg no 170mm travel).

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    Thanks for looking into it and for the swift reply! I appreciate!

    Damn, it was too good! $150 for a charger2.

    The travel is set to 160mm so it would have been alright but I did not know (checked) about the other parts ...

    Itíd be good to know exactly what would cause it not to work, because they are essentially the same.

    Iíll try to investigate but I have a very limited knowledge about the interaction between the 2 products. All I know is length, fit etc ... basics LOL.

    The end goal is really to lower the acquisition cost of the charger2, knowing we only need part of it!

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    Sure is a which hunt on ol' Dougal here eh? haha. I didnt read a single one of his posts as tossing dirt on anything. In fact, looks to me like he provided some information from the little we know about the product outside of the cutaway that he posted (from PUSH site) which would be exactly where he got his info if I had to guess. Like him or not, the guy knows his way around damper design...

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    The HC97 is a completely different architecture and damping characteristic.

    I ripped it this weekend...it was incredible! Disclosure: My opinion my be incredibly bias.

    Darren
    I took that as asking if I installed the HC97 on a RCT3 version of the charger vs the RC2, would the resulting dampers be the same? In other words, does the HC97 replace all the parts that are different between the 2 versions of the charger.

    I have the same question; my bike came with an RCT3, which is stupid (the 3-position lever is not at all useful). The HC97 seems like it would be a cheaper, better option than getting the RC2 version of the damper to make the fork what it should have been in the first place.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joules View Post
    I have the same question; my bike came with an RCT3, which is stupid (the 3-position lever is not at all useful). The HC97 seems like it would be a cheaper, better option than getting the RC2 version of the damper to make the fork what it should have been in the first place.
    From what I understand, that is correct!

    Yeah the 3 positions is stupid on any fork really ... the only switch I want is on my shock when climbing on asphalt.

  70. #70
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    We know the compression assembly and the overall architecture are the same. Push says they provide a new rebound tune, so those shims would be the same. They donít mention the midvalve, so those might be valved differently. And the rebound needle maybe different, idk?

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    I saw earlier you will be offering complete damper kits, any word on pricing and availability on those? I have a lyric c1 and this sounds interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carlhulit View Post
    I saw earlier you will be offering complete damper kits, any word on pricing and availability on those? I have a lyric c1 and this sounds interesting.
    Yes please! Like the ACS3 replacing the whole spring assembly ... so easy to do itís perfect

    Message to Fox and RS. Please start to sell us your chassis only. Thatís just what we need! LOL

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    Got a reply from Push regarding the Pike damper into a Yari. (With the HC97 of course)

    Since we have not tried to install a Pike damper into a Yari I can not confirm fitment, but here is what I know for sure. The HC97 will get you the correct thread pitch and fitment up top. The Pike damper is not as long so you would not be able to run a Yari at 180 or 170 with the kit, since you are only looking at 150 I do not believe this would be an issue, but since I can not be certain I would run this by Rockshox to see if they have a compatibility chart of some kind.
    So in theory if you keep the travel at or under 160mm it should be fine!

    Iíll pull the trigger on a brand new cheap Charger2 RCT3 for the Pike and will order the HC97! Hopefully it will work ... either way Iíll keep you posted!

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    Darren, any plans to extend this into the Charger2 platform for Sid/Reba?

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    Any plan for an HC97-1 (HC96?), one compatible with Charger1? There are a lot of those out there looking for the right upgrade...

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    Can someone explain to me what exact problem this compression damper adresses and why this is done with a poppet instead of shims? I understand that there seems to be an sizing/flow imbalance in the original damper which canīt be solved with pure reshimming, but why has there to be a poppet valve instead of a conventional shimmed-piston setup? Where are the benefits of this layout and what are the downsides (withou actually knowing, I just assume that there are downsides as this layout isnīt verry common)?

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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by mantra View Post
    ... why has there to be a poppet valve instead of a conventional shimmed-piston setup? Where are the benefits of this layout and what are the downsides (withou actually knowing, I just assume that there are downsides as this layout isnīt verry common)?
    All the CCDB use poppet valves ... so itís not that uncommon

    Now as to why itís used? Iíve read somewhere that no matter the tuning the shims canít move/bend fast enough to get the oil flowing and it creates a ďharsh(er)Ē feel!

    Iím far from an expert and if someone knows better and can explain it to us, yes thatíd be great . Darren maybe?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantra View Post
    Can someone explain to me what exact problem this compression damper adresses and why this is done with a poppet instead of shims? I understand that there seems to be an sizing/flow imbalance in the original damper which canīt be solved with pure reshimming, but why has there to be a poppet valve instead of a conventional shimmed-piston setup? Where are the benefits of this layout and what are the downsides (withou actually knowing, I just assume that there are downsides as this layout isnīt verry common)?
    This is all we've got: https://www.pushindustries.com/products/hc-97
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    Any idea how the GRIP2 compares to the CHARGER2+HC97 please?

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    Not so much happening arround here Any news? First ride reports maybe?

    Can it be generally said if this damper acts digressive, linear or progressive? I somehow still struggle to put this non shim poppet thing into perspective...

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantra View Post
    Not so much happening arround here Any news? First ride reports maybe?

    Can it be generally said if this damper acts digressive, linear or progressive? I somehow still struggle to put this non shim poppet thing into perspective...
    Crickets huh?

    Since it's been a week since Darren was last here and no-one else is really answering, I'll give it a crack.

    Poppets are digressive. Very digressive. But that doesn't mean the whole system is. What I see in the HC97 is the entire compression flow has to go through what used to be the low speed compression hole in the middle of the piston. That's about a 4mm hole so oil needs to be doing about 6x shaft speed to feed this poppet. Then you've got three relatively small holes feeding the poppet. These will also generate more high speed damping.

    So between the poppet being digressive (depending on where it's set) and the orifices adding quadratic damping the end result could be anywhere. There is also a significant higher speed damping coming from the stock mid-valve.

    Where are the ride reports? Rick from here and a whole heap of others on Instragram had them over a week ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmRV_EADwp/
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    I really like that there are more tuning options for forks. PUSH must anticipate the Pike being around for a while, or that enough units have sold to justify the expense. Regardless, I wonder how it would compare to my Avalanche Open Bath Pike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I really like that there are more tuning options for forks. PUSH must anticipate the Pike being around for a while, or that enough units have sold to justify the expense. Regardless, I wonder how it would compare to my Avalanche Open Bath Pike.
    We need this shootout ASAP! These two have been compared for years. Now they have very competitive house brand products. Or maybe not? Seems like if the hc97 is a game changer like avalanche youíd think someone would be singing about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Crickets huh?

    Since it's been a week since Darren was last here and no-one else is really answering, I'll give it a crack.

    Poppets are digressive. Very digressive. But that doesn't mean the whole system is. What I see in the HC97 is the entire compression flow has to go through what used to be the low speed compression hole in the middle of the piston. That's about a 4mm hole so oil needs to be doing about 6x shaft speed to feed this poppet. Then you've got three relatively small holes feeding the poppet. These will also generate more high speed damping.

    So between the poppet being digressive (depending on where it's set) and the orifices adding quadratic damping the end result could be anywhere. There is also a significant higher speed damping coming from the stock mid-valve.

    Where are the ride reports? Rick from here and a whole heap of others on Instragram had them over a week ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmRV_EADwp/
    Thanks for your take on that!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I really like that there are more tuning options for forks. PUSH must anticipate the Pike being around for a while, or that enough units have sold to justify the expense. Regardless, I wonder how it would compare to my Avalanche Open Bath Pike.
    My coil sprung Avi Boxxer was by far the best prefoming fork Iīve ever had. Sadly itīs super expensive to import their stuff to Germany so I would be glad if this would be a somewhat comperable alternative as it is atleast affordable over here. We will see how the reviews are going...

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_lsb.jpg  

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-c2_lsc.jpg  

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_lsc.jpg  

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_sync.jpg  

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_hsc.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Thought I would get the video done, but with my upcoming travel tomorrow for the Bespoke show in the UK it's just not going to happen yet. In the meantime here's a little more info:

    Low Speed Compression is an area that we focused heavily on due to it's large effect on rider feel:

    1. We reduced the "free bleed" size of the system which increases back pressure significantly reducing the delay in the stock mid-valve and compression replenish circuit. This results in the damper more quickly responding to the terrain when in high frequency bumps that are small in size.

    2. We also limited the free bleed size to specifically control the the LSC range allowing the rider to position the adjuster in any position without having an effect on the high speed compression damping.

    3. We increased the adjustment range to 26 clicks with a parabolic needle to provide incremental adjustments for fine tuning.

    In each of the dyno graphs below, each colored line represents one click of the external adjuster.

    Low Speed Compression Bleed Comparison:

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_lsb.jpg

    The stock Low Speed Compression actually effects High Speed:

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-c2_lsc.jpg

    HC97 Low Speed Compression Characteristic:

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_lsc.jpg

    Mid Speed Compression is an area where the fork is transitioning from the initial bump movement and into the high speed circuit. This "blending" of the compression characteristic makes dramatic differences in the handling and performance of the fork in successive bumps of varying size especially when maneuvering the bike. Also when the wheel is leaving the ground in and out of bumps such as rock gardens. This is the secret sauce behind our "Shimless Valve" technology. It provides varying levels of smooth regulated compression damping no matter the bump size. It also allows the very distinct separation of Low, mid, and high speed compression circuits and the ability to tune them independently.

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_sync.jpg

    Lastly is our high speed circuit for when things get really rowdy. Again the graph below shows a snippet of the range of adjustment from our HSC circuit and how changes to this adjustment provide an independent control of the forks performance in the big bumps. Bump absorption without harshness and an effect on low speed small bump sensitivity.

    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-hc97_hsc.jpg

    In a nutshell you get precise adjustment over the stability and control of the front end of your bike all while being able to dial in just the right of bump absorption before it gets harsh.

    Darren
    I must admit, those are some impressive charts. The separation of the high and low speed adjusters is surprising. Never been a fan of poppet valves, but this may change my mind.

    Good work Darren

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    That overlap between is high an dlow speed adjusters is miniscule! Nice one
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    Thanks Darren!

    Thatís all I was waiting for to press "Pay". Well a "real world" ride report would have been great but I guess those who already have it are too busy riding it

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    Darren's graphs really show how proper LSC+HSC should behave. I'm just curious why the regular RC2 cant do that... according to the first graph, it looks like the LSC adjuster emulates a stiffening linear shim stack. Not very digressive, but that doesn't mean it's "bad" right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    Darren's graphs really show how proper LSC+HSC should behave. I'm just curious why the regular RC2 cant do that... according to the first graph, it looks like the LSC adjuster emulates a stiffening linear shim stack. Not very digressive, but that doesn't mean it's "bad" right?
    Right... what I see mainly is the fact that with everything going on, regardless of the velocity the LSC changes (CLICKS) minutely affect the change in LSC. Whereas, it looks like to me, as the velocity increases the HSC becomes increasingly more digressive, adding more LSC only compounds this effect causing a steady downward slope in the HSC. I could be, very badly, misunderstanding what I am seeing as I am just learning this stuff.

    Where with the HC97, the changes in "clicks" of the LSC have a much greater affect across the velocity curve but seem to be much more independent of the HSC. The HSC is independent of the LSC impact and really has a much flatter curve, while still having SOME impact, it is minute comparatively.

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    Darren, thanks for posting this information! I hope to have an opportunity to ride an HC97 sometime in the future, but it's not in the cards for me right now.

    A few key points that I'm seeing:

    The HC97 hsc plot stops at 20in/s, which imo is just barely getting into msc. This isn't a negative comment as the plots demonstrate exactly what Daren intended to show (my assumption) . . . the resolution and divorcement of the lsc and hsc adjustment.

    Comparing the RC2 plot, which I assume is with hsc full soft, to the HC97 plots revealed what I've been looking for to support my testing with the C2 in a Lyrik. The HC97 has more lsc/msc with lsc set soft than the RC2 does with the lsc closed, looking at the 5-10in/s range. This is huge. Very few of riders that I help with setup can grasp the relationship between lsc/msc/hsc and how it effects the performance of their suspension.

    I'm currently riding a Lyrik RCT3, but the only thing I haven't modified is the chassis, revalved damper, resized bushings, and spring mods. It's been a temporary solution until I can get my hands on a Mezzer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    Darren's graphs really show how proper LSC+HSC should behave. I'm just curious why the regular RC2 cant do that... according to the first graph, it looks like the LSC adjuster emulates a stiffening linear shim stack. Not very digressive, but that doesn't mean it's "bad" right?
    It canít because of the large bleed port, it doesnít generate much damping until higher speeds, and by then itís working in parallel with the shims rather than separately. Hence the picture of the 2 lsc circuits

    More redundant than bad as it overlaps with the hsc adjuster by a large amount and doesnít have any effect at actual low speeds

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Yeah, the system that we use is certainly legit. I certainly can't take all of the credit as our Engineering department did the heavy lifting on this one!

    Yeah, this kit has been incredibly well received....just not a lot of those riders on MTBR I guess.

    It really comes down to mass market. Our system won't do as well in a "parking lot" test as the stock fork, but it wins the "trail" test. At the mass OE level customers need to really "feel" the suspension movement around the parking lot which unfortunately isn't realistic to what the suspension is doing on the trail. We certainly understand why the market is the way it is.

    Yes, when changing the shims or external settings with the stock damper you're always changing the total force characteristic, whereas the HC97 separates the circuits.

    Actually, mid speed compression is velocities between 5 and 10in/sec. Velocities above 10in/sec are high speed.

    Darren
    Good information and explanation of the difference your doing. My question then would be does this make it have more of a feel like a fox 36? Which gets all the comments of staying high in travel and very supportive but it also doesnít get the comments as being as comfortable as the Lyrik (I have not personally ridden a 36 to know). So is that going to be the trade off here as well and this will essentially become a rockshox spring with fox feeling damper?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Actually, mid speed compression is velocities between 5 and 10in/sec. Velocities above 10in/sec are high speed.

    Darren
    Thanks for clarifying that. Seems like these bandwidths can vary depending on who you talk to and I have never found a definite answer on this. The line between msc and hsc has been allusive and most just lump msc in with hsc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    The HC97 provides is a very unique system that provides a very different ride characteristic than what's on the market from a production standpoint for the mass market reasons I listed above. We're in a unique position where we are building for performance minded people that are understanding if it doesn't feel "normal" in the driveway but rips on the trail.

    Probably one of the biggest problems on the forums is the lack of definitive information regarding what suspension actually does. Suspension velocities being one of the biggest offenders. "Experts" always like to talk in m/sec when in fact that's one of the least important velocity ranges to focus on. I'm happy to share actual information as all of the theories and guessing seem to be growing wildly now that more and more individuals are starting to tune suspension.

    Darren
    Ok so Iím going to take that as what I assume will be a more digressive slow feeling fork in parking lot yet opens up on trail, kind of like how my old pushed dhx was? This would make sense to me and offer good stability etc and I think from reviews sounds more like how a 36 is tuned I just donít like how some report the 36 as harsher (maybe the high speed or mid speed doesnít open up fast enough). Next two questions would be how will this play with a stock air rear shock (RS super deluxe rct) since front and rear ideally should be balanced and 11-6 is not going to be in my future (sorry a 1200 shock just isnít in budget). And finally what 5wt oils is recommended since not all are the same, are you guys still using motorex or are you on maxima plush now like everyone else?

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    I actually am getting my fork back with the HC97 installed tomorrow. I should have a ride report by end of the weekend for those on the fence. I will get a few rides in over various terrain types. By no means a suspension expert, but I will do my best to communicate rider feel.

    I am on a 180mm Lyrik RCT3 and also recently added the DSD RUNT (dual air chamber, increase midstroke support, somewhat more linear without having to go full coil).

    I was trying to solve two things with the overall modifications:

    1) Midstroke support : diving, mushiness, etc
    2) Harshness over mid-large size chunk in the steeps and at speed

  101. #101
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    I did the HC97 install at home. I was upgrading the damper on my 2018 Lyrik RC Solo Air (from a Sentinel).
    My experience with the stock Lyric RC was that he HSC was a bit harsh.

    The install instructions were good. I had pre-read the entire instructions and made sure I had all the necessary tools, and also had the house to myself for a few hours so that I could cuss loudly if necessary. Things mostly went smoothly. I had a couple little hiccups and got immediate assistance from Push's online chat help (thanks Darren!). I'm quite sure the whole procedure would take half the time if I had to do another one.

    I also made the recommended shim stack changes on the rebound stack (the rebound shims were included with the HC97 kit).

    I did the initial setup tuning using Push's recommendations for my weight. For an initial setup it has been quite close.

    I wasn't really convinced that the HC97 would be a big improvement, but it is in fact pretty noticeable.

    The Lyrik with the HC97 is smoother and more supple and more in line with what I want. I've only got 2 days on the new damper, but it really was noticeable right away.

  102. #102
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    Thank you guys for the past and futur ride reports, please keep them coming

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    Ordered mine yesterday for a 150mm 2019 Pike.

    I have Avalanche Cartridges in two other 2018/2019 160mm Lyric's but decided to give this a shot for the Pike.

    Hoping it's a on par with the Avvy Cartridge. Either way once I've put some miles on it I'll do a comparison.

    In the meantime does anyone else have a comparison of the HC97 to an Avalanche set up they'd be willing to share?

    Thanks,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by ira4ever76 View Post
    Ordered mine yesterday for a 150mm 2019 Pike.

    I have Avalanche Cartridges in two other 2018/2019 160mm Lyric's but decided to give this a shot for the Pike.

    Hoping it's a on par with the Avvy Cartridge. Either way once I've put some miles on it I'll do a comparison.

    In the meantime does anyone else have a comparison of the HC97 to an Avalanche set up they'd be willing to share?

    Thanks,

    John
    Cool! Canít wait for you to ride it and compare it against the Avy.

    I ordered mine yesterday and will use it inside a Yari chassis with Charger2 and ACS3. Will do a ride report straight after!

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberstein View Post

    I also made the recommended shim stack changes on the rebound stack (the rebound shims were included with the HC97 kit).
    More about the above please. Are the instructions regarding the shim stack written as an optional change? I'll be having my LBS do the install so I want to be able to answer them yes or no if it's optional.

  106. #106
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    More about the above please. Are the instructions regarding the shim stack written as an optional change? I'll be having my LBS do the install so I want to be able to answer them yes or no if it's optional.
    Optional? Yes if you are under 160lbs/72.5Kg (Ready to ride)




    PUSH HC-97
    CHARGER 2.0 Rebound Tuning Guide
    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/05...e_Guide.PDF?89


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Cool! Canít wait for you to ride it and compare it against the Avy.

    I ordered mine yesterday and will use it inside a Yari chassis with Charger2 and ACS3. Will do a ride report straight after!
    If it's as good (or dare I say, better) than the Avalanche Cartridges I'll be pleasantly surprised. The HC97 is about half the cost of the Avvy stuff so if it's as good or better then that'll be super sweet.

  108. #108
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    Wondering what the overlap is for the rebound shim stack tune. During a normal riding season I fluctuate between RP1 and RP2. Currently at about 190# RTR, but have been down to 170-180 RTR at the end of a season. Also depends on which pack I am riding with... anything less than about 20 miles will have me with my hip pack (Evoc Pro 3L) but more than that will have me with my backpack (Osprey Raptor 14L) both come with bladders and anywhere from 1.5L to 3L of water (rarely ride with a water bottle on the bike).

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Wondering what the overlap is for the rebound shim stack tune. During a normal riding season I fluctuate between RP1 and RP2. Currently at about 190# RTR, but have been down to 170-180 RTR at the end of a season. Also depends on which pack I am riding with... anything less than about 20 miles will have me with my hip pack (Evoc Pro 3L) but more than that will have me with my backpack (Osprey Raptor 14L) both come with bladders and anywhere from 1.5L to 3L of water (rarely ride with a water bottle on the bike).
    Itís average brackets, I would not worry about few +/- lbs. Letís stay sensible!

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberstein View Post
    I did the HC97 install at home. I was upgrading the damper on my 2018 Lyrik RC Solo Air (from a Sentinel).
    My experience with the stock Lyric RC was that he HSC was a bit harsh.

    The install instructions were good. I had pre-read the entire instructions and made sure I had all the necessary tools, and also had the house to myself for a few hours so that I could cuss loudly if necessary. Things mostly went smoothly. I had a couple little hiccups and got immediate assistance from Push's online chat help (thanks Darren!). I'm quite sure the whole procedure would take half the time if I had to do another one.

    I also made the recommended shim stack changes on the rebound stack (the rebound shims were included with the HC97 kit).

    I did the initial setup tuning using Push's recommendations for my weight. For an initial setup it has been quite close.

    I wasn't really convinced that the HC97 would be a big improvement, but it is in fact pretty noticeable.

    The Lyrik with the HC97 is smoother and more supple and more in line with what I want. I've only got 2 days on the new damper, but it really was noticeable right away.
    My 2018 sentinel has a C1 damper (per RS tuning website and SN) did your come with a C2? I am fighting for more midstroke support and interested to compare this to a Runt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmonty View Post
    I actually am getting my fork back with the HC97 installed tomorrow. I should have a ride report by end of the weekend for those on the fence. I will get a few rides in over various terrain types. By no means a suspension expert, but I will do my best to communicate rider feel.

    I am on a 180mm Lyrik RCT3 and also recently added the DSD RUNT (dual air chamber, increase midstroke support, somewhat more linear without having to go full coil).

    I was trying to solve two things with the overall modifications:

    1) Midstroke support : diving, mushiness, etc
    2) Harshness over mid-large size chunk in the steeps and at speed
    Really curious to hear about your experiences with the DSD RUNT and HC97 combo. I just installed the RUNT in 160mm Lyrik RCT3 and have been pleased so far. Am considering the HC97.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    And finally what 5wt oils is recommended since not all are the same, are you guys still using motorex or are you on maxima plush now like everyone else?
    I'm curious about this too. About to install one of these puppies and spec is 3wt. Not all oil viscosities are the same so I suspect this matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I'm curious about this too. About to install one of these puppies and spec is 3wt. Not all oil viscosities are the same so I suspect this matters.
    Darren recommends Motorex 5wt 3d fluid with the HC97.

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Optional? Yes if you are under 160lbs/72.5Kg (Ready to ride)




    PUSH HC-97
    CHARGER 2.0 Rebound Tuning Guide
    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/05...e_Guide.PDF?89


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm 170# geared up, so I should ask the LBS to do the RP1 change then.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Wondering what the overlap is for the rebound shim stack tune. During a normal riding season I fluctuate between RP1 and RP2. Currently at about 190# RTR, but have been down to 170-180 RTR at the end of a season. Also depends on which pack I am riding with... anything less than about 20 miles will have me with my hip pack (Evoc Pro 3L) but more than that will have me with my backpack (Osprey Raptor 14L) both come with bladders and anywhere from 1.5L to 3L of water (rarely ride with a water bottle on the bike).
    Rebound range question is answered by where your adjuster is running.

    There is no point going to a firmer stack if you're running the adjuster mostly open.
    Unless you like orifice rebound damping.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Rebound range question is answered by where your adjuster is running.

    There is no point going to a firmer stack if you're running the adjuster mostly open.
    Unless you like orifice rebound damping.
    Ok that was what I somewhat figured but did not know how "independent" of this the rebound tuning was. Normally I would be with the RP1 and figured there was some overlap based on the adjustments of HSC and LSC.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Rebound range question is answered by where your adjuster is running.

    There is no point going to a firmer stack if you're running the adjuster mostly open.
    Unless you like orifice rebound damping.
    Iíve wondered about that. Darren broke down the low and high speed recommendations for compression but not a recommendation for starting rebound in terms of low speed. Not sure if it would be the same as where Iím at now or if that should be different as well. Currently at -9 from closed which is what RS guide came up with and has been perfect (tried -11 before but was too fast and left the fork feeling out of control). With his guide Iíd be in the RP1 category (172 w gear) so Iíd be slowing my HSR, is that gonna cause me to want a faster overall and become less digressive?

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Iíve wondered about that. Darren broke down the low and high speed recommendations for compression but not a recommendation for starting rebound in terms of low speed. Not sure if it would be the same as where Iím at now or if that should be different as well. Currently at -9 from closed which is what RS guide came up with and has been perfect (tried -11 before but was too fast and left the fork feeling out of control). With his guide Iíd be in the RP1 category (172 w gear) so Iíd be slowing my HSR, is that gonna cause me to want a faster overall and become less digressive?
    Rebound damping depends on mass and spring rate but more heavily on spring rate. So two riders the same weight but one running more air pressure, expect him to need more rebound damping.

    Rebound is more digressive running the adjuster closed with more oil through the shims. Especially on charger 2. It is more progressive running the adjuster more open and less oil through the shims.

    There are polarised views on what the targets for rebound damping should be. The HC97 recommendations fit nicely with the Moto world with a lot of chassis control required.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I'm 170# geared up, so I should ask the LBS to do the RP1 change then.
    I believe so, yes!

    But as others have stated, it also depends on where your rebound is right now. (How you like it if you prefer)

    Personally I would go RP1.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlhulit View Post
    My 2018 sentinel has a C1 damper (per RS tuning website and SN) did your come with a C2? I am fighting for more midstroke support and interested to compare this to a Runt.
    I'm pretty sure it was a C1 damper (adjustable LSC only, but some sort of pre-set HSC which I thought was too harsh). The whole compression damper part gets replaced with the HC97.

    I'm pretty sure the mid-stroke support would be an air-spring issue and not a damper issue, if you still want a supple feel. (compression damping can be supportive, but at the cost of harsh feeling fork... ...for example, full lock-out is very very supportive)

    For more mid-stroke support, maybe remove some volume reducers from the air spring and run a bit higher pressure (to get bottom out at the same force, with a more linear spring curve). Sorry if the air-spring discussion is a little off track, since this is supposed to be a discussion of the HC97 damper...

  121. #121
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    First ride report (Fully aware of the -new component and fork rebuild rose-tinted glasses effect):

    HC97 definitely improves the "issues" (first world problems) I mentioned above. Hitting chuck (6" or more roughly) at mid to high speeds is soo much smoother. Bigger hits are more composed as well, but I have some tweaking to do on HSC and rebound (I went RP2 which is a lot slower, but I like it).

    I had improved mid-stroke already with the RUNT, but the HC97 takes the experience to a new level. Definitely need more time and dialing, but I am a fan. The other major noticeable item is how much a click or two actually creates a discernible change on the trail (go-figure . Kudos to Darren and the team. Will post more detailed reports after a few more days of riding various terrain.

    My hot take reaction is that if you are on the fence and $ burning a whole in wallet, go for it.

  122. #122
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    Thank you very much for one of the very first feedback on this thing

    Did you feel any improvements on consecutive bumps and chatter at high speed?!

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmonty View Post
    First ride report (Fully aware of the -new component and fork rebuild rose-tinted glasses effect):

    HC97 definitely improves the "issues" (first world problems) I mentioned above. Hitting chuck (6" or more roughly) at mid to high speeds is soo much smoother. Bigger hits are more composed as well, but I have some tweaking to do on HSC and rebound (I went RP2 which is a lot slower, but I like it).

    I had improved mid-stroke already with the RUNT, but the HC97 takes the experience to a new level. Definitely need more time and dialing, but I am a fan. The other major noticeable item is how much a click or two actually creates a discernible change on the trail (go-figure . Kudos to Darren and the team. Will post more detailed reports after a few more days of riding various terrain.

    My hot take reaction is that if you are on the fence and $ burning a whole in wallet, go for it.
    Mirrors my past few months on the system. But if you really want the ultimate experience, replace the spring with ACS-3

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmonty View Post
    First ride report (Fully aware of the -new component and fork rebuild rose-tinted glasses effect):

    HC97 definitely improves the "issues" (first world problems) I mentioned above. Hitting chuck (6" or more roughly) at mid to high speeds is soo much smoother. Bigger hits are more composed as well, but I have some tweaking to do on HSC and rebound (I went RP2 which is a lot slower, but I like it).

    I had improved mid-stroke already with the RUNT, but the HC97 takes the experience to a new level. Definitely need more time and dialing, but I am a fan. The other major noticeable item is how much a click or two actually creates a discernible change on the trail (go-figure . Kudos to Darren and the team. Will post more detailed reports after a few more days of riding various terrain.

    My hot take reaction is that if you are on the fence and $ burning a whole in wallet, go for it.
    Runt vs HC97 which one would you choose if you're only going to buy one?

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    Mirrors my past few months on the system. But if you really want the ultimate experience, replace the spring with ACS
    Whoop Whoop! So glad to hear that, Iíve got the ACS3 already and the HC97 is scheduled for next week ... CANíT WAIT to go full Push and call it a day

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    Mirrors my past few months on the system. But if you really want the ultimate experience, replace the spring with ACS-3
    Unfortunately, the ACS-3 only goes to 170mm, and I am on 180mm. I looked at the "other" coil option for a while, but I decided to go the RUNT for the airside based on some reviews and the adjustability. I may still go full coil if I can't satiate my endless tinkering, but I am going to ride this setup for some time to get familiar.

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    Any way yet to get this installed on a damper already? Or maybe a core exchange? I have a C2 and enjoy wrenching, but frankly with 3 toddlers, Iíd rather spend the little bike time I have riding. Iím located in the Front Range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmonty View Post
    Unfortunately, the ACS-3 only goes to 170mm, and I am on 180mm. I looked at the "other" coil option for a while, but I decided to go the RUNT for the airside based on some reviews and the adjustability. I may still go full coil if I can't satiate my endless tinkering, but I am going to ride this setup for some time to get familiar.
    Happy to mention the Runt but not happy with saying "Vorsprung"??

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonp22 View Post
    Any way yet to get this installed on a damper already? Or maybe a core exchange? I have a C2 and enjoy wrenching, but frankly with 3 toddlers, Iíd rather spend the little bike time I have riding. Iím located in the Front Range.
    PUSH is located in Loveland and would install it for you

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    Yeasterday installed hc97 using
    Redline 5wt lightweight oil
    Vis @ 100įC, CSt 7.5
    Vis @ 40įC, CSt 16.0
    Viscosity Index 519
    Freezing Point įC -33
    Freezing Point įF -27
    it is little thinner than motorex 5wt

    Big diffirence to charger 2 rct3 damper suspension stays more active on rockgardens
    big drops it wont hit your bars hard

  131. #131
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Hey Guys,

    Iím about to get mine very soon now and Iím wondering if there is a definitive answer about what oil and viscosity we should use please.

    Iíve seen 3wt, 5wt and different brands floating around ... so ...

    As per SRAM recommendation it was originally spec'd for 3wt in the damper. Iím 80kg ready to ride ... maybe that helps, should I get a thinner oil (3wt?!?)

    Whatís the rule about all this? Lighter rider = lighter viscosity (even on rough terrains if thereís no big drops?)

    Iíd appreciate your help


    Quote Originally Posted by The Messiah View Post
    Darren recommends Motorex 5wt 3d fluid with the HC97.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokau View Post
    Yeasterday installed hc97 using
    Redline 5wt lightweight oil
    Vis @ 100įC, CSt7.5
    Vis @ 40įC, CSt16.0
    Viscosity Index519
    Freezing Point įC-33
    Freezing Point įF-27
    it is little thinner than motorex 5wt

    Big diffirence to charger 2 rct3 damper suspension stays more active on rockgardens
    big drops it wont hit your bars hard
    BTW. Super interesting article on the subject here: https://rottenxxxronnie.blogspot.com...k-oil.html?m=1
    Last edited by digev; 06-03-2019 at 11:48 PM.

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    You should look Vis @ 40C CSt and vis @ 100c cst viscosity values when comparing fluids
    5wt is not same allmoust any brand
    Viscosity Index value is important high value better oil
    here info from motorcycle side https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXRxxmvBHCQ

    if comparing motorex and redline
    redline has better viscosity index

    Motorex 5wt:
    Viscosity:
    6.8 cSt at 100 degrees Celcius
    22.9 cSt at 40 degrees Celsius

    VI 287
    Pour Point <-40 degrees Celcius

    Redline 5wt lightweight oil
    Vis @ 100įC, CSt 7.5
    Vis @ 40įC, CSt 16.0
    Viscosity Index 519
    Freezing Point įC -33
    Freezing Point įF -27

    here some more info https://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/in...spension_Fluid

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    Oh I see! Thank you Tokau

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    Thanks a bunch Darren! No need to look elsewhere then, Iíll go with your spec

    Iíll only get back to a different viscosity if needed, but first letís try that

  136. #136
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    I dropped off my bike at the LBS on Sunday early afternoon. They seemed pretty excited about the HC97 upgrade and got to work on it right away. I got a call a few hours later that it was ready to go and the mechanic said it felt great on his test ride.

    I've had one ride so far with the upgrade, on a slow trail with lots of herky-jerky rocks and chunk where it's easy to get hung up. I used the setting the mechanic set for me, which I think are the Push-recommended starting point settings. The first thing I noticed in comparison to the stock Charger 2 damper (2019 Lyrik, 160mm) is that I didn't feel like reaching for my adjustment knobs so much. With the stock setup I kept wanting to change the settings when I'd transition from smooth sections to rocky but with the HC97 it felt pretty good all over. I did play with the HSC a little and like others have said, I could discern a change with just a couple of detents. I'm excited to try it out at speed on a faster trail but there are few of those around here that aren't still underneath snow from this winter. I'll be heading to Moab in a few weeks and will really give it a good test.

    So far, I'm not disappointed. Money well spent.

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    Nice Teaser

  138. #138
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    I have a 2017 Lyrik RCT3 solo air and looking at upgrading to the HC97. Do I need/should to upgrade to the debonair as well or will the hc97 take care of both? Iím fairly ignorant to suspension set up.

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    You should update debonair
    Debonair got bigger negative air volume
    And go for new service manual intructions: dynamic seal grease on airspring and 0w30w 3ml oil in airspring

  140. #140
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Okay....I misunderstood. To clarify, it doesn't matter which Charger2 damper you start off with, when the install is completed you end up with the exact same thing.
    Thereís a Charger 2 RC damper that comes specíd on a lot of OEM forks, does this unit work on the simpler RC? That would be a nice upgrade, otherwise it would require a new damper and the HC97 if you had the RC


  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by sennaster View Post
    Thereís a Charger 2 RC damper that comes specíd on a lot of OEM forks, does this unit work on the simpler RC? That would be a nice upgrade, otherwise it would require a new damper and the HC97 if you had the RC

    Can you clarify please? You mean does the HC97 work with the Charger2 RC?

    If that is the question, then yes! (Any Charger2 will work)

  142. #142
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Some HC97 feedbacks released today: https://www.mtb-mag.com/en/tested-pu...amper-upgrade/

  143. #143
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Can you clarify please? You mean does the HC97 work with the Charger2 RC?

    If that is the question, then yes! (Any Charger2 will work)
    Cool. I just checked the push page again and maybe it was updated, or i missed it the first time when it was released. I thought originally Iíd read rct3 and rc2

    I actually put someones takeoff RC into my yari a while ago to replace the mo-co and turn it into a lyrik. I can see one of these in my future.

    From PUSH:
    ďLYRIK: Compatible with all Lyrik RC, RCT3 and RC2 forks equipped with Charger 2 and 2.1 Damper cartridges

    YARI: Compatible with all Yari forks that have been fitted with an upgraded RCT3 or RC2 Charger 2 or 2.1 Damper Cartridge. ď

  144. #144
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Quick question!

    Step 7 of the Assembly Instructions for the PUSH HC-97 Kit says you need:

    1 stock Compression Bolt
    1 spring
    1 shim

    Simple enough, but because I used a ęPikeĽ Charger2 RCT3, not a ęLyricĽ I have multiple shims, not just 1! So my questions are:

    1) - Do I have multiple shims because itís a Pike damper not a Lyric?
    2) - Do I rebuild it with all the shims? (like it was before)
    3) - Do I just keep the first shim?
    4) - If I need to keep them all, would it be wise to re-arrange them to get a little bit more performance while I have the stack in my hands?
    5) - Are they just spares and Iím being stupid? (Donít think so but we never know)

    Pardon my ignorance but itís the first time I open a damper so itís uncharted territory for me. Very interesting and enjoyable nonetheless






    PS: starting from a Pike Charger2 damper seems to be as fine as a Lyric Charger2 for the HC97 + Lyric! I wasnít sure at first, but weíll swap the head assembly and the travel will not be over 160mm + now that I have all the parts in front of me, it seems fine!

    Letís rebuild this thing and find out

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Quick question!

    Step 7 of the Assembly Instructions for the PUSH HC-97 Kit says you need:

    1 stock Compression Bolt
    1 spring
    1 shim

    Simple enough, but because I used a ęPikeĽ Charger2 RCT3, not a ęLyricĽ I have multiple shims, not just 1! So my questions are:

    1) - Do I have multiple shims because itís a Pike damper not a Lyric?
    2) - Do I rebuild it with all the shims? (like it was before)
    3) - Do I just keep the first shim?
    4) - If I need to keep them all, would it be wise to re-arrange them to get a little bit more performance while I have the stack in my hands?
    5) - Are they just spares and Iím being stupid? (Donít think so but we never know)

    Pardon my ignorance but itís the first time I open a damper so itís uncharted territory for me. Very interesting and enjoyable nonetheless






    PS: starting from a Pike Charger2 damper seems to be as fine as a Lyric Charger2 for the HC97 + Lyric! I wasnít sure at first, but weíll swap the head assembly and the travel will not be over 160mm + now that I have all the parts in front of me, it seems fine!

    Letís rebuild this thing and find out
    Your supposed to keep the one check shim that is under the compression piston, all the shims above the compression piston would get removed and replaced by the HC97. So top to bottom would go HC97, piston, check shim, spring, bolt.

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Your supposed to keep the one check shim that is under the compression piston, all the shims above the compression piston would get removed and replaced by the HC97. So top to bottom would go HC97, piston, check shim, spring, bolt.
    Ahhhhhhhh! So cool, thank you very much for the answer! Really appreciate

  147. #147
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    Anyone did a hc97 swap for the charger 2.1? Cant seem to feel any difference in the settings between closed and open
    Bird zero AM with mt7 danny mcaskill, eagle nextie and some fun bits

  148. #148
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    I have been looking into upgrading the damper on my OE Pike RC that came on the 2019 Stumpy Expert model. The HSC is set to high for me for the chunky gardens and brake bumps. At first I was going to pull the trigger on the HC97, but then I saw that there is a Charger 2.1 RC2 available as well. I searched all over the web, but I have not seen a direct comparison between the HC97 and Charger 2.1 RC2.

    Now in my case, replacing the whole damper cartridge would be a task I could perform myself so the cost of the Charger 2.1 RC2 would be $375. Now the installing the HC97 is would be challenging my skills and I would have to purchase a bench vice and the tube jaws to perform the installation. Another option is to send the damper cartridge to PUSH and have them perform the component swap. I still have to contact PUSH and get a price for the swap.

    Assuming that either buying the tools and accounting for the few hours it will take me to breakdown the cartridge and perform the swap, or having PUSH perform the swap would even out the total cost difference between the Charger 2.1 RC2 and the HC97; I have a couple of questions.
    1) One of the great features of the OE Pike RC is the LSC dial. I can easily max it out for the long steep climbs and put it back to full open with about 180 degree rotation. Which one of the two upgrades (Charger 2.1 RC2 or HC97) would be able to match this function? In other words, how many clicks are there in 180 degrees of rotation in HC97 LSC dial? Would that amount of rotation reduce climbing bob?
    2) What additional steps are required for the 200 hour service with the HC97?

  149. #149
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    Details please?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    HC97 is a winner !

    I've had the privilege of running this in my Pike for a few months now, with ACS3 on the spring side, and the performance upgrade from stock is substantial.

    Performance on repetitive hits, such as stutter/braking bumps, is where HC97 shines brightest. The fork just floats over this stuff now, and gone is the herky-jerky chattering of the stock damper. And the adjustments truly let me dial in the ride to my liking, although the settings from factory were essentially spot-on.

    last night I rode my 36 with ACS3 and PUSH tuned damper on my other bike, and I frankly found myself missing my Pike -which is not something I'd have said back in January.
    Wondering how much you attribute the performance improvement you are seeing to the spring mod vs the damper mod?

    I have a 2019 Pike RCT3 140 and I absolutely hate it. It is super harsh no matter how I tune it. I get full travel but it basically feels like a rigid fork. I'm about 160 lbs all suited up to ride with a pack on so am wondering if the compression tune is just too stiff for my weight.

    How much do you weigh all suited up to ride?

    thanks!

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlite View Post
    I have been looking into upgrading the damper on my OE Pike RC that came on the 2019 Stumpy Expert model. The HSC is set to high for me for the chunky gardens and brake bumps. At first I was going to pull the trigger on the HC97, but then I saw that there is a Charger 2.1 RC2 available as well. I searched all over the web, but I have not seen a direct comparison between the HC97 and Charger 2.1 RC2.

    Now in my case, replacing the whole damper cartridge would be a task I could perform myself so the cost of the Charger 2.1 RC2 would be $375. Now the installing the HC97 is would be challenging my skills and I would have to purchase a bench vice and the tube jaws to perform the installation. Another option is to send the damper cartridge to PUSH and have them perform the component swap. I still have to contact PUSH and get a price for the swap.

    Assuming that either buying the tools and accounting for the few hours it will take me to breakdown the cartridge and perform the swap, or having PUSH perform the swap would even out the total cost difference between the Charger 2.1 RC2 and the HC97; I have a couple of questions.
    1) One of the great features of the OE Pike RC is the LSC dial. I can easily max it out for the long steep climbs and put it back to full open with about 180 degree rotation. Which one of the two upgrades (Charger 2.1 RC2 or HC97) would be able to match this function? In other words, how many clicks are there in 180 degrees of rotation in HC97 LSC dial? Would that amount of rotation reduce climbing bob?
    2) What additional steps are required for the 200 hour service with the HC97?
    Answering your first question, neither are going to do something like that as they are not focused on lockouts. When your locking it out itís closing the lsc and then relying on the high speed to do all the compression damping, so for it to have a ďplatformĒ the high speed needs to be set firm otherwise it will open easily. This firm setting is also what contributes to the harshness on hard hits. So to get either even remotely close youíd have to close both low and high speed compressions so with push starting points your looking at roughly 12-15 clicks of each, for Charger 2.1 your looking at about 18 clicks low speed and 5 high speed not something your gonna do on the fly. More importantly though if setup right and dialed in youíll be able to minimize bob and have a fork the follows the terrain better and in the end wonít miss your lockout on bit.

  151. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlite View Post
    Now the installing the HC97 is would be challenging my skills and I would have to purchase a bench vice and the tube jaws to perform the installation. Another option is to send the damper cartridge to PUSH and have them perform the component swap. I still have to contact PUSH and get a price for the swap.
    Or you could have an LBS install the HC97. I dropped off my bike at the shop and they called me a few hours later for pickup. It didnít cost much for labor.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Ahhhhhhhh! So cool, thank you very much for the answer! Really appreciate
    One last question (hopefully)!

    The ďCheck shimĒ is the (previous) bottom one?! 18x0.1 right?!

    My stack got moved around while working near it, so I just want to double check thatís the right one!

    Thanks for you help!

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    One last question (hopefully)!

    The ďCheck shimĒ is the (previous) bottom one?! 18x0.1 right?!

    My stack got moved around while working near it, so I just want to double check thatís the right one!

    Thanks for you help!
    7x15x0.15mm.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  154. #154
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    Thanks Dougal, yeah I just realized thatís the only one that fits all the way to the compression bolt (the only one with a bigger internal diameter).

  155. #155
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  157. #157
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    Before the ride review, hereís an installation review

    As usual, it seems easy once youíve done it but I have a few points that Iíd like to share with those who are going to do it! Bear in mind Iím not mister DYI and itís just to make it a bit more noob proof. (For guys like me)

    I started from a Pike Charger2 damper!

    Disassembly

    - Step 11: once you remove the compression bolt youíll end up with several shims, donít worry about the stack order, you just need to keep 1, itís the only one with a bigger internal diameter (itís called a check shim)!

    Once you are finished with the disassembly (check the picture below) you will only re-use parts above the red line.



    Assembly

    - Step 16: if you decide to re-tune the rebound (I went with the RP1) make sure to print out the ęHC97 REBOUND TUNING GUIDEĽ first and lay it down. That way as soon you remove the stack from the top of the piston, place the shims directly onto it (The STOCK tune) so you know whatís what and there is no need to re-measure anything after that. (Itís important because you will re-use most of them, the RP1 re-uses them all + a 12mm shim provided with the HC97)

    - Step 20/21: after filling the cartridge tube with oil and before putting the rebound assembly into the tube (donít be an idiot like me) extend the rebound shaft fully. Otherwise it will take more volume in the tube and most of the oil that you just put in the tube will overflow and drip everywhere. Duhh!

    There you go, apart from that, itís very simple to follow the Push step-by-step documentation.

    The new damper is ready to-go but Iím waiting for my 42mm offset CSU to arrive! I donít want to disassemble the fork twice canít wait to try it!


  158. #158
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    Thanks for the feedback Jesse Hill, Nat and Darren. I'm back on track to installing the HC97 on my Pike.

    Also thank you digev for the additional installation info. I'm leaning toward the DIY route. I've wanted to get a bench vise for a while now, and this will be a great reason to get it.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlite View Post
    I've wanted to get a bench vise for a while now, and this will be a great reason to get it.
    IME the cheap Harbor Freight vises work well combined with magnetic soft jaws from Amazon. I like the harder plastic jaws to make custom fit shaft clamps by simply drilling out the size I need.

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlite View Post
    I'm leaning toward the DIY route. I've wanted to get a bench vise for a while now, and this will be a great reason to get it.
    Go for it, itís fairly easy! And youíll learn something in the process

    You can do a lot without a bench vise but they make your life so much easier in the end ... it does not have to be screwed if you want to store/hide it after use!

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    IME the cheap Harbor Freight vises work well combined with magnetic soft jaws from Amazon. I like the harder plastic jaws to make custom fit shaft clamps by simply drilling out the size I need.
    Good info right there, thanks for sharing! Iíve been looking for hardened plastic shaft clamps for a while but could not find any! I used a ęghettoĽ 10mm clamp for the rebound shaft ... but honestly Iím not too proud of it and was a bit worried to leave marks/scratches on it ... If anyone has some info about one with multiple (most common sizes for mtb suspension) Iíd be happy to know! Cheers

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Good info right there, thanks for sharing! Iíve been looking for hardened plastic shaft clamps for a while but could not find any! I used a ęghettoĽ 10mm clamp for the rebound shaft ... but honestly Iím not too proud of it and was a bit worried to leave marks/scratches on it ... If anyone has some info about one with multiple (most common sizes for mtb suspension) Iíd be happy to know! Cheers
    Same here!!

    Actually if you are going to go for the HF vise, make sure you get a larger one. Just went through the process of converting my DT Swiss M1900 wheels to the star ratchet system from the 3-pawl system and busted the "forged" body on my HF 4" bench clamp. Like literally the body split in two while I was trying to get the drive ring unstuck.

  163. #163
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    A good vise will last a lifetime and it you have the space is worth spending some money on. A used Reed or quality USA made vise form the last 60 years will out perform any crappy Chinese one.
    I have a restored Wilton S400 that I got for $80 and it's on of my most used tools.Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-picture023_zpsd10a5bcc.jpg
    The s300 I restored too. That one was $40.
    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade-picture024_zps7e5155b6.jpg
    Last edited by alexbn921; 05-21-2019 at 12:57 PM.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    .. If anyone has some info about one (shaft clamp) with multiple (most common sizes for mtb suspension) Iíd be happy to know! Cheers
    Park Tool AV-5 Axle and Spindle Vise Inserts has quite a few different and very useful sizes: 5, 9, 10, 12, 14, 20, 25, 30, and 36mm.
    There are similar vice inserts also available, Birzman is slightly nicer for a few more $ and Icetoolz and Super B (largely in Europe), and TENY on Ebay and similar on AliExpress.

    I also keep a ~3" piece of spare inner tube around for cushioning odd sizes and/or delicate parts.
    Last edited by xprmntl; 05-21-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by xprmntl View Post
    Park Tool AV-5 Axle and Spindle Vise Inserts has quite a few different and very useful sizes: 5, 9, 10, 12, 14, 20, 25, 30, and 36mm.

    I also keep a ~3" piece of spare inner tube around for cushioning odd sizes and/or delicate parts.
    Cool! Iíll look into that one ... thank you!

    Yeah the spare inner tube, I used that as well to prevent any damage on the shaft! I donít like the idea of having metal parts inside a metal tool

  166. #166
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    Updated a few more options, above

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    I have a restored Wilton S400 that I got for $80 and it's on of my most used tools.
    Thatís cool!

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    Darren, sorry, but i was feeling nothing with the stock damper just ordered a hc97. Probaly the first in the netherlands

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaterra View Post
    Darren, sorry, but i was feeling nothing with the stock damper just ordered a hc97. Probaly the first in the netherlands
    Thanks for your business! You'll be stoked on the upgrade!

    Darren

  170. #170
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    Ok doesnít look like Iíll get my wish of a 2.1 vs hc97 so Iím gonna go for the hc97 since shims have a limited tuning range and previous experience with parabolic needle and poppet worked for me in the past and Push is only one aside from grip2 that tunes HSR to spring rate rather than one size fits all.

    Hope it impresses.

  171. #171
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    After a couple of weeks and several trail rides with the HC97 mod to my Lyrik RC2 Iíve found that the recommended settings balance my suspension nicely when my rear shock is in medium setting. The bike feels good and controlled. It has a firm sports car suspension feel. I like it.

    With the rear in Open mode the bike is a bit unbalanced though. I have yet to really push the pace downhill since the trails are just now recovering from winter. Once I can hit some downhills then Iíll play with the damping on the fork to find the settings that match the rear end in Open mode.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    After a couple of weeks and several trail rides with the HC97 mod to my Lyrik RC2 Iíve found that the recommended settings balance my suspension nicely when my rear shock is in medium setting. The bike feels good and controlled. It has a firm sports car suspension feel. I like it.

    With the rear in Open mode the bike is a bit unbalanced though. I have yet to really push the pace downhill since the trails are just now recovering from winter. Once I can hit some downhills then Iíll play with the damping on the fork to find the settings that match the rear end in Open mode.
    What shock are you running? Just curious if it's a good match for your modded fork.

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    What shock are you running? Just curious if it's a good match for your modded fork.
    DPX2 tuned for an Evil Wreckoning LB.

  174. #174
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    Compatible with a 2019 SID? (2019 Scott Spark RC World Cup)

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marthy View Post
    Compatible with a 2019 SID? (2019 Scott Spark RC World Cup)
    No.

  176. #176
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    I had a first ride on a new 2019 lyrik 170mm with the Hc97 last night. The fork had one quick ride with the stock damper and then had the Hc97 installed by Slick and Slide in the Uk.

    From the short ride with the stock damper, my initial impressions - the hsc and lsc made very little difference, didn't really seem to have much mid stroke and generally felt abit soft. this was with 25% sag 78psi, 1 token and adjuster in the middle. rebound at -7

    The Hc97 was installed with the rp1 Rebound tune
    All clickers at the base setting R10, LSC 20, HSC15.
    Air pressure and tokens left as stock fork 78psi and 1

    First thing I noticed was the fork felt alot firmer just pushing down on the bars and a bounce on the carpark they felt abit slow, but as has been mentioned before - what feels good in the carpark is not what feels good on the trail.

    So first ride - 15 mile local loop, good mix of smooth single track, rocky descents and roots.

    The damping feels very firm initially - like going from a family car to a sports car almost.

    They still have good small bump but when things start moving the fork doesn't blow its travel at all is very controlled.

    I didn't alter the settings at all during the ride as i want to get to grips with whats going on and break the fork in for a good few miles before altering anything.

    The Hc97 is a totally different beast to the stock fork, it rides higher in the travel it works so well it feels like its doing nothing. it just goes about its business in a quite controlled fashion.

    More hours needed on it but if you want a fork with some serious performance this it the ticket.
    Last edited by dlocki; 06-11-2019 at 02:33 AM.

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    Cool, sounds like itís doing what it should

  178. #178
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    Installed the hc97 today, all went well. Only thing was that on the installation manual the rebound shims of the stock 2.1 damper is totally different than pictured in the manual. It says that the stock rebound has shims of 13mm. Nothing of this on the 2.1. 15mm, 12 and m stock. So i had to trial and error to get the rebound spot on. Have 2 15mm, 2 12mm and 1 8mm shim mounted right now, now the rebound feels good 6-7 clicks from closed.
    Sunday is the first tour, but the first feel is totally different, from ultra plush to almost lockout

  179. #179
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    Wow! If you can take a picture or post your stack that'd be great!

    @For everyone else > You can get 15% off charger2 & 2.1 this week-end on WorldWide Cyclery with the code "memorial-15", it's a pretty good way to grab a damper for the HC97 project (just saying).

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaterra View Post
    Installed the hc97 today, all went well. Only thing was that on the installation manual the rebound shims of the stock 2.1 damper is totally different than pictured in the manual. It says that the stock rebound has shims of 13mm. Nothing of this on the 2.1. 15mm, 12 and m stock. So i had to trial and error to get the rebound spot on. Have 2 15mm, 2 12mm and 1 8mm shim mounted right now, now the rebound feels good 6-7 clicks from closed.
    Sunday is the first tour, but the first feel is totally different, from ultra plush to almost lockout
    Might ask Push if theyíve done any dyno testing to come up with a 2.1 chart yet, they are aware that they are different thatís why the guide says for 2.0 only. They may know something on the 2.1 and just havenít updated yet.

    In this post you can see them laid out side by side and see they are completely different so until Push has a chart for 2.1 itís kind of a shot in the dark as to getting it right.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...e-1099480.html

  181. #181
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    Looks like I need a 10" socket extension to install this puppy. Any issues with 3/8" or is 1/4" best? I'd have more utility with the 3/8 in automotive stuff.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Looks like I need a 10" socket extension to install this puppy. Any issues with 3/8" or is 1/4" best? I'd have more utility with the 3/8 in automotive stuff.
    The OD of the socket is the only thing to be mindful of, it needs to be under 18mm which should be fine with a 10mm
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
    Suspension servicing & tuning in Rotorua, NZ/Vorsprung Elite Tuning Centre/Insta @thesuspensionlab

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Looks like I need a 10" socket extension to install this puppy. Any issues with 3/8" or is 1/4" best? I'd have more utility with the 3/8 in automotive stuff.
    A Mac 3/8 10mm is too big an OD so Iíd say 1/4 and if you have a 1/4 drive 10mm magnetic socket then even better as it will hold the bolt in place (thatís what I used). I know not everyone is professional mechanic but if your buying to specifically install this then might as well get a magnetic one.

    P.S. modern cars youíll find yourself using 1/4 drive more than 3/8 as theyíve gotten tighter and tighter. When I left a few years ago 90% my work was 1/4 drive and you wonít touch 3/8 until 17mm+

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    A Mac 3/8 10mm is too big an OD so Iíd say 1/4 and if you have a 1/4 drive 10mm magnetic socket then even better as it will hold the bolt in place (thatís what I used). I know not everyone is professional mechanic but if your buying to specifically install this then might as well get a magnetic one.

    P.S. modern cars youíll find yourself using 1/4 drive more than 3/8 as theyíve gotten tighter and tighter. When I left a few years ago 90% my work was 1/4 drive and you wonít touch 3/8 until 17mm+
    That's a good tip, thanks! Ya, mainly an 89 Toy LC and my Ford 4x4 van. I have air tools for most of what I'm willing to tackle and the new cars go to a mechanic. Anyway, I have no problem adding to my tool collection. The Push chamferless sockets are pretty sweet.

  185. #185
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    Push HC97 Charger Upgrade

    First ride with the HC97 on a test loop today!

    When I suddenly pull the fork, to hop over something for example there is a big topout noise. I also have the ACS3 in the fork. Does anyone have an idea about what it could be please?!

    Other than that, it works great but I need more miles on it! Doesnít let the fork go up and down in the chunky sections like it used to, itís more controlled.

  186. #186
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  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Is your rebound adjuster working properly? Meaning, can you slow the fork down to eliminate the noise? Might be a slight problem with the damper build/bleed.

    Darren
    Hi Darren,

    You are correct, I just tried to close the rebound and itís still super fast! I noticed it while riding but did not touch the settings.

    What could it be please?! Thanks for the swift reply... much appreciated

  188. #188
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    Another info that might help, when I screw the rebound adjuster knob I canít use it anymore, it doesnít move. I have to unscrew it then turn it clockwise or anti-clockwise to adjust the rebound ... as soon as I tighten the bolt, I canít turn it anymore

  189. #189
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  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    That sounds like the foot bolt might be bottoming out on the rebound needle. Loosen the foot bolt and then use a hex key to turn the rebound adjuster in a turn or two. Then re-tighten the foot bolt. You should now be able to freely move the rebound adjuster and solve the excessive rebound speed causing the top out issue.

    Darren
    Youíre the man

    I just did that (loosening the foot bolt) and closing the rebound fully now it makes that ęoilyĽ noise ... canít ride it right now but Iím pretty sure it solved the stuck/full open rebound causing it to come back to quickly and topout.

    So happy, thank you very much!

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    That sounds like the foot bolt might be bottoming out on the rebound needle. Loosen the foot bolt and then use a hex key to turn the rebound adjuster in a turn or two. Then re-tighten the foot bolt. You should now be able to freely move the rebound adjuster and solve the excessive rebound speed causing the top out issue.

    Darren
    I think heís referring to the knob retaining bolt not the foot nut bolt when he says he has to loosen the bolt to adjust rebound. This would mean the retaining bolt is threading too far and is now hitting the foot bolt (supposed to ride freely in the foot bolt channel). Remove the knob retaining bolt and run the tip over a file a few times, inspect the foot bolt channel and make sure it didnít get gouged, if so use a small smooth file and smooth any gouges out. Re assemble and check. If you can adjust rebound without the knob retaining bolt (or the bolt not fully tight) then this is your issue as Iíve had it on a Pike before so just remove some material from the retaining bolt or find a very small washer until it no longer binds.

    As for the top out I couldnít say as I donít have an ACS3 but Iíd think it wouldnít fully allow the damper to fully extend, just like the stock air spring it leaves 5 or so mm of the damper compressed so the rebound piston canít physically hit? If thatís right then Iíd guess something on the spring side since even if the damper got air that would be a dead spot at top of compression not at rebound extension right? Just like when Charger 1 were blowing lower seals?

  192. #192
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    Nvm guess I mis understood what rebound bolt he was unscrewing in order to adjust rebound. He replied as I was typing.

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    Hi Jesse,

    No worries, itís not the first time you wouldíve helped us ... thanks for always being ready to make our life a little bit simpler

  194. #194
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    Hi Darren,
    Hopefully you can offer some advice.
    Dad's got the new carbon levo expert with the pike RC. He uses the bike for long alpine single track in Chamonix (very steep,wuite rocky/rooty).
    Unsurprisingly his wrists are getting destroyed.
    Doesn't do any tricks, drops, or racing, just wants a smooth ride down quite difficult terrain. 80kgish.
    This damper seems an appropriate upgrade to make it smooth.

    So 2 questions:

    1) where is the closest place to Chamonix France that can fit it?
    2) what would be a suggested starting point for the settings (this will also be the final settings as he doesn't bother changing anything ever).


    Bonus question.

    3) while he is getting that done, any suggestions for the deluxe rct3 to make it good?

    Thanks
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant View Post
    Hi Darren,
    Hopefully you can offer some advice.
    Dad's got the new carbon levo expert with the pike RC. He uses the bike for long alpine single track in Chamonix (very steep,wuite rocky/rooty).
    Unsurprisingly his wrists are getting destroyed.
    Doesn't do any tricks, drops, or racing, just wants a smooth ride down quite difficult terrain. 80kgish.
    This damper seems an appropriate upgrade to make it smooth.

    So 2 questions:

    1) where is the closest place to Chamonix France that can fit it?
    2) what would be a suggested starting point for the settings (this will also be the final settings as he doesn't bother changing anything ever).


    Bonus question.

    3) while he is getting that done, any suggestions for the deluxe rct3 to make it good?

    Thanks
    While the HC97 will work (to an extent), I think your dad has a different issue here. Letís start with the Pike on a 22kg bike ... it seems weird to me.

    If you want to make the front more confy/compliant/supple ... go for the ACS3 kit. Putting a coil in that fork will be a game changer already ... THEN if you want to fine tune the result go for the HC97, but the coil alone will make a huge change to your dadís bike.

    And you can do it yourself, itís very easy!!

    For the back I would do the same, stick a coil shock on it and make your dad smile

    If you are not prepared to do that, find someone who can custom tune the suspensions, either locally ... or send the fork + shock to a tuner. Hereís a few good ones in France:

    https://www.novyparts.com
    http://www.x1-racing-suspension.com

    OR TFtuned in the UK and they are a Push reseller as well (give them a call they are super knowledgeable and very cool guys)

    https://www.tftuned.com/push/b1

  196. #196
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  197. #197
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    Any danger of a **** off cool drop in open bath job for a yari please?

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson View Post
    Any danger of a **** off cool drop in open bath job for a yari please?
    Confused what your asking here? You asking for Yari damper upgrade? If so I believe FAST has a replacement compression assembly for the yari open dampers.

  199. #199
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    I know fast do one, I'm unsure how good it is, but wondered if Push had something in mind.

  200. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    To answer your questions:

    1. MRC-Trading in Germany
    2. IF you're talking about HC97 I would use the guidelines on our website at: https://www.pushindustries.com/pages/hc97-support

    3. I don't really have any suggestions for the rear shock unfortunately.

    One thing you should also consider is our ACS3 Coil Conversion Kit first: https://www.pushindustries.com/pages/acs-fork-models This would be a better starting point than our damper kit is it adds an incredible amount of plushness to the ride. IF you're able to afford both than that wold be best case scenario, but not everyone is looking to spend that much. Both units does build a "Super Fork" though!

    Darren
    Thanks.

    The answer surprised me slightly.

    I thought the pike was supposed to have a great chassis and spring, but a mediocre damper.

    Is the spring that bad?

    What makes you think that the coil will help more?

    Thanks
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

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