Pike Air Or Coil ?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1

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    Pike Air Or Coil ?

    I am going to be upgrading from a vanilla to a pike can anyone who maybe has ridden both tell me which they liked better is the air worth the extra $ ? I like both air and coil shocks but i do not have any experiance with pike THANX!!!

  2. #2
    Bodhisattva
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    I own the coil and have ridden the air. Both are excellent.
    The Pike air is the best feeling air fork I've ever tried. Still, I prefer the feel of the coil so that's what I have.
    The advantages for the air are lighter weight and ability to adjust the positive & negative springs.

  3. #3
    DGC
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    Pike air

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti Rulz!!!
    I am going to be upgrading from a vanilla to a pike can anyone who maybe has ridden both tell me which they liked better is the air worth the extra $ ? I like both air and coil shocks but i do not have any experiance with pike THANX!!!
    I have to agree with SW, the Pike air is the best air fork i've also tried. Good enough that I bought one. I have forever been a coil fork person-my last 10 or so forks have been coil. I just came off of the 05 Vanilla RLC and my 06 Pike air u-turn is definately stiffer, having the maxle 20mm axle helps, it is far more adjustable, and for small bump plushness it equals the Vanilla coil. But what the Pike does not do is wallow in the mid stroke, it wont dive as much, and has adjustments to hold the fork up higher in the stroke and still remain active and plush.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  4. #4
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    Check out DGC's review of the Pike Air here.

    EDIT: Speak of the devil! DGC were your ears itching?

  5. #5
    DGC
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    hahha

    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG
    Check out DGC's review of the Pike Air here.

    EDIT: Speak of the devil! DGC were your ears itching?
    yup.....!
    https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/5...ure_6857_1.jpg
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  6. #6
    Daniel the Dog
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    Wouldn't the Revelation be a better Spot match?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti Rulz!!!
    I am going to be upgrading from a vanilla to a pike can anyone who maybe has ridden both tell me which they liked better is the air worth the extra $ ? I like both air and coil shocks but i do not have any experiance with pike THANX!!!
    The A-C is lower with all the bells and whistles of the Pike. Just wondering what you thought.

    Jaybo

  7. #7
    DGC
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    things have changed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The A-C is lower with all the bells and whistles of the Pike. Just wondering what you thought.

    Jaybo
    Well some things have, like our riding. With good geometry in the mix of the more quality travel we get these days, the easier it is to go faster and harder. So bigger or beefier equiptment is usually needed. The 5 Spot has proven to take a beating. Guys are running Marzocchi forks on the Spot with close to the same a-c and love it. It suits their riding more than a shorter fork. The difference in geometry change was noticeable the first few rides, but much less noticeable now, except when its a steep decent and the taller front end is a help not a hinderance. For climbing it wont matter, since I can lower the front end to a lower point than my Fox Vanilla could be at, or anywhere in between.
    The taller fork compliments what I am trying to do on steep technical trails. For more pure xc a shorter fork would be a good choice, but for the more demanding decents, the taller Pike with its better compression damping and stiffer steering round out what is needed. I am clearly going faster on the same trails right now than I was 1 month ago on the Fox.
    Last edited by DGC; 11-15-2005 at 08:27 PM.
    OUCH...!!!!!!

  8. #8
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    the Pike with its better compression damping
    Pike & Revelation use the same motion control cartridge. Damping is the same. Correct me if I'm missing something.

  9. #9
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I own 2 Pike Air forks and used to own a Pike coil. I have ridden 2 other Pike coils in addition. Pike Air all the way, baby!

    The Revelations look sweet. I measured the A-C at Interbike at 507mm @130mm. They are the sleeper of the RS lineup in 06. They enjoy all the same technology as the Pike in a lighter, more xc-leaning package. I was very tempted to put one on the BarnyMobile, but I got such a screaming deal on a gently used Team Air that I went for that. If you like the geometry of the Fox forks on the Spot, a Revelation would be an excellent alternative. A lot of us are used to taller forks on there now though. Personal preference.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  10. #10
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    all these raves about the PIKE airs sound good. an air fork as good as a coil, fox shox at that! sounds almost too good to be true. from my experience, air forks just cannot keep up with high-speed stutter bumps as a coil, just even physics. air just cannot move in/out through valves as fast as a metal coil can respond.

    i plan to go coil with my PIKE. i really miss the high speed compliency on those stutters. on my talas, i have to slow down or feel the fork may wash out.

  11. #11
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by myitch
    all these raves about the PIKE airs sound good. an air fork as good as a coil, fox shox at that! sounds almost too good to be true. from my experience, air forks just cannot keep up with high-speed stutter bumps as a coil, just even physics. air just cannot move in/out through valves as fast as a metal coil can respond.

    i plan to go coil with my PIKE. i really miss the high speed compliency on those stutters. on my talas, i have to slow down or feel the fork may wash out.
    IMO, it's not as good as the coil from a performance standpoint.
    The air is good. Real good. But it still doesn't have the traction of the coil.

  12. #12

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    From what i hear the air is more adjustable how much adjustment can be had with coil ? Also if i do go with the coil i wieght 175 with gear which spring will i need? THANX!!!

  13. #13
    No, that's not phonetic
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    What are you talking about? Air moving through valves? There is a cylinder with a piston. That's it. That's the spring. Waaaaaaay less mass to accelerate than with a coil spring. Waaaaaay less inertia: more responsive.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  14. #14
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti Rulz!!!
    From what i hear the air is more adjustable how much adjustment can be had with coil ? Also if i do go with the coil i wieght 175 with gear which spring will i need? THANX!!!
    This is another Coke v Pepsi situation.
    No rights, no wrongs. Both the coil & air springs have their pros & cons.

    At your weight the stock spring (medium) should be sufficient. I have friends at your weight that run it stock with no problems.

    Adjustability of the coil? Well, the purpose of the dual air chambers is to simulate a coil like feel. With the coil it's pick a spring and ride. Both share identical damping systems.

  15. #15
    DGC
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    yah nah

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Pike & Revelation use the same motion control cartridge. Damping is the same. Correct me if I'm missing something.
    You are correct, however I was comparing the Pike compression damping to the Fox fork, no mention of Revelation. Is that what you meant?

  16. #16
    Daniel the Dog
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    Thanks guys....

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    Well some things have, like our riding. With good geometry in the mix of the more quality travel we get these days, the easier it is to go faster and harder. So bigger or beefier equiptment is usually needed. The 5 Spot has proven to take a beating. Guys are running Marzocchi forks on the Spot with close to the same a-c and love it. It suits their riding more than a shorter fork. The difference in geometry change was noticeable the first few rides, but much less noticeable now, except when its a steep decent and the taller front end is a help not a hinderance. For climbing it wont matter, since I can lower the front end to a lower point than my Fox Vanilla could be at, or anywhere in between.
    The taller fork compliments what I am trying to do on steep technical trails. For more pure xc a shorter fork would be a good choice, but for the more demanding decents, the taller Pike with its better compression damping and stiffer steering round out what is needed. I am clearly going faster on the same trails right now than I was 1 month ago on the Fox.
    I have a Pushed Vanilla that is nice. It is short enough on climbs to stay glued to the trail; however, I must admit, it would be nice to have a bit more travel and a touch higher front end on a steep descent. We ride a lot of rocks and technical terrain here. It is an area of weakness for me because I have an overdeveloped fear gland due to some bad crashes and subsequent painful injuries.

    To answer the original question before I highjacked this thread. Sorry. I'm hearing the air Pike is super plush and rougly 1/2 pound lighter. I would go coil if you are more of a freeride guy and air if you are riding cross country. That may be oversimplified but I would guess the coil is slighty plusher and the air has a touch more firmness to it. However, air forks today are MUCH better than years gone by. Oh, by the way, I have ridden an '05 coil Pike and it was amazing.

    Tscheesy and DGC, I wonder how the stock Pike compares to a Pushed Fox Vanilla.

    Jaybo

  17. #17
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I I wonder how the stock Pike compares to a Pushed Fox Vanilla.

    Jaybo
    Well, I have no experience with a PUSH'ed fork, but one thing I definitely noticed coming from a TALAS (same chassis as a Vanilla) to a Pike is the stiffness from the 20mm axle.

  18. #18
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    You are correct, however I was comparing the Pike compression damping to the Fox fork, no mention of Revelation. Is that what you meant?
    Yup. Gotcha. Poor reading comprehensions skills strike again.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti Rulz!!!
    From what i hear the air is more adjustable how much adjustment can be had with coil ? Also if i do go with the coil i wieght 175 with gear which spring will i need? THANX!!!
    Stock medium for you I would guess. I'm riding the medium at 195lbs with gear and sometimes I feel I don't even make use of the upper 1/3 of travel, and I have bottomed it out once or twice so it may be undersprung for me.

    The new Pike air's are attractive for several reasons, one imo is that they (the dual airs) are the sexy new girl on the block. That doesn't automatically mean they are better. Last year the Pike coil was all the rage in affordable all mtn forks! Now some are saying their time has passed, blahhh!

    Coil usually means simple, more responsive tracking (plushness if you will). I don't claim to know why nor am I a "whats inside that fork" expert, I just know that the coil forks I have ridden seem very plush compared to the air sprung forks I've been on. Air forks on the other hand provide adjustability (some cases, but I say so what anyways), and weight savings.
    After all, the common goal of air forks seems to be to provide a fork that "feels" similar to a coil sprung fork but weighs less.

    I say if you want to save weight, air all the way. If you want simple, plushness and aren't worried about an extra pound or whatever, then coil it is.

  20. #20
    DGC
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    yes but

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Yup. Gotcha. Poor reading comprehensions skills strike again.
    My writing skills tend to really lack so sometimes I have to make sure I didnt make a big mistake SW.
    Now to the others, Jaybo etc., I dont have much experience on a Pushed Vanilla either, all I can say is this. Apples to apples would say that the Pike air to the Pike coil air is the coil is a little plusher and has the ability to soak up bumps a touch better than air. From what I hear of the coil this is likely true. The air allows a rider to tune the fork to their weight without switching/buying buying new coils, and it does represent what I believe to be the best in air fork performance in the 5 inch travel trail forks. If I could have the coil at real close to the weight of the air, I would have chose to buy that. However the chance came up to buy a mis shipped pike air, I jumped on it. Trust me I hesitated since I have been a coil fork guy since the Mag 21....!!!! Man thats a long time ago. I am very impressed in the air. I also feel the stiffness difference vs. the Fox vanilla is clearly better on the Pike, and the small bump plushness and reaction of the air is equal to the Fox Vanilla with the green spring was for me.

  21. #21
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I would guess the coil is slighty plusher and the air has a touch more firmness to it.
    In my experience the opposite is the case. The coil has no preload adustment. The fully extended position of the coil matches the full fork extension exactly. But by the time I got the correct spring in the fork, the initial compression behavior started to suffer a bit. If you end up needing a stiff spring, you lose your sag and it gets a bit firm overall. With the air version you can run the main spring as firm as you want it and you can STILL add as much negative pressure as you like. You effectively make the fork sink into it's travel, so no matter how much positive pressure you have, you can give it zero (or even negative) "preload." You can also subtract travel this way if you want, by overpressurizing the negative chamber and having it "suck" the fork down. The balance point between the positive and negative chambers is a totally unpreloaded state where it takes no effort to move the fork in either direction.

    The coil will always have a mostly linear action, but you can effect the steepness of the Air's rate curve by adjusting the positive and negative pressures, and you can shift the curve up and down. You can also decrease the volume of the negative chamber and make it more progressive by adding oil to the top of the air piston. The air is far, far more adjustable than the coil.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  22. #22
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    All these theories, adjustments, physics, mechanics talk is great. But the bottom line in choosing between air vs. coil is this: What feels better on the trail overall. Weight a factor, go air. Since weight will affect your climbing and your overall experience on the trail also. Weight not a factor, consider coil. Ride ém both.

  23. #23
    Daniel the Dog
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    I've always been dyslexic :)

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    In my experience the opposite is the case. The coil has no preload adustment. The fully extended position of the coil matches the full fork extension exactly. But by the time I got the correct spring in the fork, the initial compression behavior started to suffer a bit. If you end up needing a stiff spring, you lose your sag and it gets a bit firm overall. With the air version you can run the main spring as firm as you want it and you can STILL add as much negative pressure as you like. You effectively make the fork sink into it's travel, so no matter how much positive pressure you have, you can give it zero (or even negative) "preload." You can also subtract travel this way if you want, by overpressurizing the negative chamber and having it "suck" the fork down. The balance point between the positive and negative chambers is a totally unpreloaded state where it takes no effort to move the fork in either direction.

    The coil will always have a mostly linear action, but you can effect the steepness of the Air's rate curve by adjusting the positive and negative pressures, and you can shift the curve up and down. You can also decrease the volume of the negative chamber and make it more progressive by adding oil to the top of the air piston. The air is far, far more adjustable than the coil.
    I'm almost attracted enough to the Pike to give it a shot; however, my Vanilla matches my RP3 perfect. Fashion or performance? Hmmm. Tough call.

    Jaybo

  24. #24
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by myitch
    What feels better on the trail overall. Weight a factor, go air. Weight not a factor, consider coil. Ride ém both.
    Just curious, but have you ridden them both? I'm simply trying to figure out why if weight is not a factor the coil becomes more desirable.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  25. #25
    EDR
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Just curious, but have you ridden them both? I'm simply trying to figure out why if weight is not a factor the coil becomes more desirable.
    Not to speak for someone else but....I think the popular opinion has been that for a long time now coil forks have been "plusher" than air sprung forks. Maybe "plusher" is not the right word but I think we all know what I mean. The travel has a much more linear feeling to it and many agree that this is a desirable trait vs. a fork that dramatically increases in spring rate (air or not) as it progresses through its travel. I understand that many forks with dual and negative chambers this can be dialed in to the way you like it, but correct me if I'm wrong, this is somewhat of a new revelation in air fork technology.

    I have not ridden the Pike air. I could have spec'd one on my 575 but went with the coil version only b/c I have been riding air sprung forks for 3 years now (MX Comp and Fox Float100) and simply wanted to try something different. Plus the new bike is built to take much more of a beating than the xc bike so I thought coil would be an appropriate choice. I can say that I am very happy with this fork, although it may be just a bit undersprung for my weight and as you know, there is no preload adj. like the air fork. The motion control damping with the floodgate is a very nice set up and the travel is indeed, very linear, which is what I was looking for.

    Just my .02.............

  26. #26
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I hear ya. I have both and air and coil Z1 and they behave quite differently. The coil is much plusher. Those experiences are not transferable to the Pikes though.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  27. #27

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    I only weigh 135 lbs. Does rider weight come into play in the coil vs air debate?

  28. #28
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by lchu80
    I only weigh 135 lbs. Does rider weight come into play in the coil vs air debate?
    Yes and No.
    You'd need the correct spring for the coil which in your case would not be stock. You'd want the light spring. With the air you'd just need to adjust the pressure to suit your tastes.

  29. #29
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    Has anyone had problems with Pikes?

    While I am really content with the trail performance of my Pike SL, I have had major technical issues.

    1. After 4weeks of riding, all mountain style, no big drops or whatever, the Motion Control unit was leaking oil. Right at the top of the right side, where the compression knob is located.
    Compression also didn´t work anymore.
    Besides the spring in the left leg made a clunking sound.

    I then shipped the fork to the company who imports and repairs the forks for germany. They told me my fork was an OEM model, no warranty. My LBS, who sold me my Pike, went bankrupt. "$=)"($/$")(

    But, loving the performance I payed 95Euros (110$) for the repair. They put in a new Motion Control Unit.

    But the fork still made the clunking sound. I read a post in this discussion board, put on a spring cover. Sound was gone, I was happy.

    BUT now, 7 months after I bought the fork it started to make REALLY strange creaking noises.
    I changed the handlebar, stem, brake hub, headset. Nothing still creaking noises. Then I tried the fork in 3 other bikes. MAJOR creaking in all bikes.

    So the fork is producing these sounds. I think it comes from the crown/steerer crown/stanchions section.
    By the way, I weigh 65kg (143lbs) my riding style is smooth and I didn´t do big drops or parks.
    I payed 400$ for the fork
    110$ for the repair
    40$ for a new spring

    A new stanchion/steerer unit is about 300$in Germany. WTF. I am a student, can hardly afford a nice bike ;-) Quite a big amount of working hours went into buying the Pike.

    I don´t know what to do now. I love Motion Control and the Maxle Axle. But I am probably going to replace the Pikes with some Zokes Z1.

    ANYONE an idea about the creaking prob? its a very sound and bright noise. click click like.

    I know, not Sram is to blame about the warranty problem. BUT 3 Major breakdowns in 7 months? Doesn´t sound to reliable to me.

    I love Rock Shox, startet with a Quadra21, several Judys, Duke and a Psylo.

    But now i am quite disappointed.

    Greetings Znarf
    Ps: Sorry for my bad english! I am just practising =)

  30. #30
    Bodhisattva
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    Sorry to hear you're having problems.
    Mine has been problem free since May.

    My experience is opposite from yours. I've had nothing but bad luck with RS over the years and swore off of them in the 90s so going to the Pike was a big step for me and a hard pill to swallow. Obviously I'm happy with my decision.

  31. #31
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Some guy was on here complaining about creaking Pike crowns but it turns out he was from a shop with a lot of Manipoo stock to move.

    Seriously, I think my Pike crown is making noises too, but I took it off the bike recently and put my 04 Z1 coil back on, so I have not investigated further.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  32. #32
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    Manipou? I suppose your talking about the malfunctioning Manitous.

    When I started mountainbiking a decade ago they just started to make fine suspension forks. But since SPV and their increasing number of sold forks, they got a few problems. A high percentage of Shermans broke down here. Leaking Oil, RTA not working ...

    At least that´s what´s happening in Germany during the last year.

    I´m done with things that need maintenance all the time.

    I´m think I am going to contact SRAM Europe directly and ask them what´s up with their forks.
    Maybe they can help me with my creaking problem.

    Greetings from the Black Forest =)

    Znarf

  33. #33
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    Thanks for all the input guys i decided to go with the pike air i ordered a fixed travel 454 dual air from jenson today i will post a review when i have had some time on it THANX!!!

  34. #34
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti 575
    Thanks for all the input guys i decided to go with the pike air i ordered a fixed travel 454 dual air from jenson today i will post a review when i have had some time on it THANX!!!
    Cool. You'll dig it. Post back after you've gotten the smile off your face

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeti 575
    Thanks for all the input guys i decided to go with the pike air i ordered a fixed travel 454 dual air from jenson today i will post a review when i have had some time on it THANX!!!
    I just finished an all mountain ride with my SID and my back and neck feel like sh*t so I just put in the exact same order today for my chamelon. Let me know how your pike goes.

  36. #36
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    I own both the 05 Pike Air and 05 Pike Race coil and prefer the coil. The air has proven to be a pita because the negative pressure needs air all the time. For a few rides the positive/negative pressures were perfect and the fork ran like a dream. But now the thing just gets stiff an hour into the ride.... must be a leak somewhere. The coil is 90% as plush with less maintenance. Not sure about the 06s but the 05 airs need to have the air chamber lubed every 20hrs or so of riding.

    Another interesting point is that on the air I can go full plush (motion controls at zero). With the coil the fork feels out of control without a fair amount of motion control (compression and floodgate around the halfway points works for me). Even with the motion control giving some much needed assistance to the spring, it is able to remain surprisingly sensitive.

    I dont think many people purchased the 05 Pike Air, but looks like many will for 06 so I am curious to see if they remain reliable.

  37. #37
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Hey Jag, grab some new o-rings for your Air. I just did my first oil change in my 1-year-old (early 2005) Pike Air and the chambers held their air beautifully before, though there was very little oil on top of the air piston (I think it only calls for 3-5cc). If your only issue is an air leak between the chambers, that should be extremely easy to address.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

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