New Marzocchi Damping question- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    mtbr "member"
    Reputation: Reek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    717

    New Marzocchi Damping question

    Is the new Marzocchi TST damping system different from the HSCV system or just a update of the HSCV?

    REEK

  2. #2
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mańana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,278
    Quote Originally Posted by Reek
    Is the new Marzocchi TST damping system different from the HSCV system or just a update of the HSCV?

    REEK
    Very different.

    _MK

    "The things you get fired for when you’re young are the same things you get Lifetime Achievements for when you’re old."

  3. #3
    Now riding Fox Shox!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    479
    MK, are you willing to share your superbly vast knowledge on the way the TST bladder damper works? Please?

  4. #4
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    32,660
    Go do some google searches for motorcross bladder damper forks...

  5. #5
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mańana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,278
    Quote Originally Posted by MarzocchiFork
    MK, are you willing to share your superbly vast knowledge on the way the TST bladder damper works? Please?
    That is some exotic stuff. I can't say that I have even the slightest idea. I have not read a single piece of info.

    _MK

    "The things you get fired for when you’re young are the same things you get Lifetime Achievements for when you’re old."

  6. #6
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mańana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,278
    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    From what I understood after reading about some MX bladder dampers is quite like a HSCV plus some bladder instead of the open cartridge. Think of it like the marriage between the top cap of a SPV assembly and a HSCV cartridge...
    Before I read any of it, I must say, DAYUM, that's a long friggin post!

    _MK

    "The things you get fired for when you’re young are the same things you get Lifetime Achievements for when you’re old."

  7. #7
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,884
    From what I understood after reading about some MX bladder dampers is quite like a HSCV plus some bladder instead of the open cartridge. Think of it like the marriage between the top cap of a SPV assembly and a HSCV cartridge.

    it's much more complicated than that... but that would be a start.

    Some bladder dampers have two chambers providing different tuning capabilites. From what I've read these dampers are speed and position sensitive thanks mainly to the bladder which acts like a pre-load spring and spring (if that makes any sense) for the damper assy.

    I made some research from big-brand MX fork manufacturers for some schematic or something with no success. The closest I got thru is some lengthy explanation of one of the developers of this technology on some MX website.

    Here's a transcription:

    "I have, however, several design patents in past and current use credited to me within Kayaba's design section. In fact, the "speed sensitive spring character concept" of the bladder system is my concept patented by Kayaba. This is why I feel qualified to fill you in on what you failed to explain in your article.

    Please do not take this as some condescending lecture, I really identify with technical people such as yourself who have a common interest with me.

    The concept of the bladder system is to create a "speed sensitive spring characteristic". It has nothing to do with the damping. As you pointed out in your "article 1", springs are position sensitive, but not speed sensitive, and damping is speed sensitive, but not position sensitive.

    What the bladder system accomplishes, is a total spring character that is speed sensitive: the faster the fork is compressed, the higher the spring rate. Of course, the coil spring is not getting stiffer, but the AIR SPRING (oil level chamber) is being manipulated to create the speed sensitive character. In other words, when the fork is compressed slowly, it feels like it has a low oil level, but when it is compressed faster, it feels like it has a high oil level.

    This is accomplished by splitting the air spring into two chambers, and separating them with a "restrictive barrier". The first air chamber is the traditional oil level chamber, the second is the air volume within the bladder.

    These two chambers are separated by a "restrictive barrier" which is the top of the cartridge cylinder. There is the "seal ring" on the outside diameter of the spring seat. The spring seat has the slots for the "T-wrench" to hold the cartridge from spinning.

    These slots are covered with a washer, and the spring sits on top locating it. The clearances at this area between the washer, spring seat, and seal ring provide the "restrictive barrier". Oil can flow through this area, but it is metered. At low speeds, it is relatively unrestrictive, allowing both the oil level chamber and bladder chamber to compress equally. But as speeds pick up, and oil flow is restricted, then the oil level chamber is forced to compress faster than the bladder chamber, thus giving the effect of a smaller compressible volume (higher oil level).

    The "rod charge" is also absorbed by the bladder chamber, but it is insignificant compared to what is going on with the spring character. Now, what are the "tuning elements" of this system? Chamber A and chamber B VOLUMES, and restrictive barrier FLOW. Unfortunately, this production manufactured system only allows the adjustment of the oil level. The restrictive barrier COULD be adjusted by drilling holes in the washer, but our testing has found that the stock restriction is the most widely acceptable.”……

    “I want to further clarify some function I didn't specify: there are 2 "charges" or "volume displacers": the rod charge, which is the volume displaced by the 12.5mm cartridge rod entering the cartridge. This charge only displaces volume from the cartridge, and is absorbed by the bladder chamber.

    The second and most influential volume displacer, is the inner tube charge, which is the inner tube entering the outer tube and displacing volume. The inner tube charge is the charge which is actuating the speed sensitive spring character. This charge forces oil DOWN by the pressure of the oil level chamber, past the restrictive barrier, compressing the bladder chamber. A technical subject that I am often discussing with suspension tuners is the "oil lock bottoming system vs. the rubber bumper bottoming system in the YZ type fork. Again, I may be biased as this is another one of my design concepts! The difference between the oil lock bottoming system and the rubber bumper bottoming system, is that the oil lock type is hydraulic, and therefore "speed sensitive", and the rubber bumper system uses an elastomer (spring) and is therefore "position sensitive". Different length (depth) oil lock cups or cases, different diameter oil lock pistons, all do one thing: they change the speed sensitive character of the system. Stiffer, softer, more progressive, less progressive, sooner, later.....I often say that damping is speed sensitive, like water: the faster you stroke your hand through it, the more resistance there is. But it is not position sensitive: if you put something in the water, it will just sink to the bottom, nothing is holding it's position. So, like a valve setting, once you set it, it is decided. The speed sensitive character is set. But in motocross, we arrive at the bottoming system at different shaft speeds: sometimes we arrive at it slowly, such as a g-out or when we hit a hole during braking, or when we hit a steep jump face. If we arrive at the oil lock at a slow speed, it may go straight through relatively unrestricted if the oil lock character is set up for high speed hits (high speed hits require a soft setting to prevent hydraulic lock, and allow full stroke). But if we set it up with a strong oil lock character, it may provide a good comfortable cushion when the fork arrives at the bottom of stroke during a slow speed, full stroke hit, but if you arrive at it at a high speed, it will hydraulic lock and feel like metal to metal bottoming, with 20-30mm of stroke still left.

    So then we increase the stroke of the oil lock system to achieve more action, but then we hit the top of it during braking, and it ruins the performance. I've seen aftermarket oil lock cases with 40mm of stroke! This most definitely limits the effective action of the fork in situations where it shouldn't be hitting the oil lock.

    This brings me to the merits (and DEmerits) of the elastomer bottoming system. Since the elastomer is basically a spring, it is position sensitive, not speed sensitive. A coil spring is nothing more than a piece of wire being flexed. A 100lbs per inch spring will compress 1 inch for every 100lbs of force applied to it. But if you introduce speed into the situation, such as dropping 100lbs onto it, it will compress more than 1 inch, and it will oscillate until it settles at 1 inch of compression. BUT no matter what speed you arrive at it, there is a cushion. If you hit it hard enough, you can go through the effective cushion, but hopefully the damping setting will prevent such excessive speeds.

    SO it is my contention that the position sensitive system can absorb a wider range of speeds than the speed sensitive system. For example, if you were given a choice of jumping off of several different height buildings, would you choose a 6 foot thick foam pad or a tub of 6 or even 8 feet of water? If you chose the water, you would have to choose whether to belly flop or jump straight in to prevent hitting the bottom hard. But you CANNOT change how you hit the water with a set speed sensitive character. So it would be a wiser choice to jump onto the foam pad. If you have to jump from a really high height, you may compress the pad completely and bonk your head, but at least you will have the full resistance of the thickness. As soon as you generated enough speed to hit the bottom of the water tub, you would hit with a pretty unrestricted force.

    Now, I am not saying that the elastomer system is perfect, far from it. In its original testing form, Kayaba used open cell foam bumpers like on a rear shock with more stroke than is currently being used in the YZ fork. This set up was dramatically superior to the existing closed cell "pencil eraser" bumpers. But due to reliability, we had to use the closed cell material. The open cell foam disintegrated in the oil environment. The closed cell is impervious to oil but lacks the compressibility of the open cell foam. Ideally, I believe that the bottoming system should be a hybrid speed and position sensitive system similar to the current KX system, but with more position sensitivity than speed.

    I have been testing a new system that uses the open cell type in a sealed environment, but it isn't ready for production yet. I know that there are legions of customers out there that will say: "my YZ forks go metal to metal HORRENDOUSLY!! They make a loud CLACK sound"......but believe me, I have tested "bottoming SENSATION" as opposed to "bottoming frequency", and the elastomer system is much easier on the hands than an oil lock hit. It may make a racket, but the actual sensation is less sharp. Our current system needs a little more stroke (it has only 15mm), and a less abrupt character”… Ross Maeda/enzo racing KAYABA

    Subtank system.

    Readers, Here's a paste of Ross's e-mail.. Some of it is rehash but our assements were correct. I would like to thnak Ross thanks for taking your time to join our discussion.

    "The concept of my subtank system is to create a "speed sensitive spring characteristic". As you know, the two elements of suspension are SPRING and DAMPING. The SPRING element is load or position sensitive. If 10 lbs. is applied to a 10 lbs. per inch rated spring, it will compress one inch. 20 lbs. = 2 inches, etc. But it is not speed sensitive, because if 10 lbs. is dropped on the spring, it will compress more than 1 inch, but after bouncing up and down for a while, it will settle at 1 inch of compression. Adding speed to the situation changes the reaction. The second element is DAMPING, which is speed sensitive. It is like stroking your hand through water: the faster you stroke your hand, the more resistance the water provides. Speed determines the amount of resistant force. But DAMPING is not position sensitive or load sensitive. If a load is placed in the water, it will sink to the bottom. Nothing will hold it in place, only the speed sensitivity will control how fast it sinks.

    So the two elements work together to give total suspension action. But my system creates an additional speed sensitive element within the spring characteristic. In a front fork, the TOTAL spring character is determined by the coil spring rate, and the AIR SPRING RATE combined. The AIR SPRING RATE is the compression of the air volume within the fork determined by the oil level. A low oil level provides a large air volume which compresses at a slower progressive rate. A high oil level provides a small air volume which compresses at a faster progressive rate.

    The sub tank system provides additional air volume to manipulate. By dividing the total air volume into two "chambers", and separating them with a "restrictive barrier", it is possible to control the compression of the air volume by metering restriction between the two "chambers". The compressing "charge" is created by the inner fork tube entering the outer fork tube. This charge compresses the oil level chamber in the fork. With the sub tank system installed, a high oil level can be set within the fork. The sub tank provides additional air volume, which when combined with the oil level volume is actually providing a large total air chamber volume. When the fork is compressed slowly or uses shorter amounts of stroke, the total air volume of both chambers is compressed equally, giving the sensation of a very low oil level, and the action is soft. But as the fork compression speed increases, or longer amounts of stroke are used, the restrictive barrier prevents equal compression between the two chambers, so the oil level air chamber compresses at a higher rate than the sub tank chamber volume. This gives the sensation of a high oil level in the fork, and the action is firmer. In other words, when the fork is compressed slowly or uses short stroke, it feels like it h as a low oil level. But when the fork is compressed faster, or uses longer stroke, it feels like it has a high oil level. The tuning elements of the system are the volumes of each chamber (oil level and sub tank volume) and restrictive barrier (flow adjustment on sub tank). My system is installed on the stock cap through the air bleed hole, which is drilled out larger and tapped to accept a larger flow fitting. The hoses attach to the cap fittings, and then to the sub tanks. The adjustment flow is the point of greatest restriction.

    I hope that this clears up any confusion about the system. The difference between the KAYABA bladder system and my sub tank system is that the restrictive barrier between the two chambers is HYDRAULIC in the bladder system, and PNUEMATIC in the sub tank system. WHich is better? I believe that PNUEMATIC, air restriction is better because air can compress and will not spike. HYDRAULIC, oil restriction is not compressible, so sometimes it spikes. Also, the bladder system is not adjustable, and the sub tank system is. "
    Check my Site

  8. #8
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,884
    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Before I read any of it, I must say, DAYUM, that's a long friggin post!

    _MK
    Thanks god for the copy-paste !!!
    Check my Site

  9. #9
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mańana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,278
    So then the bladder acts as a means to separate the air chamber into two and depending on the speed of compression it makes the lower chamber, where the oil resides, smaller or larger thus creating a more or less progressive spring?

    _MK

    "The things you get fired for when you’re young are the same things you get Lifetime Achievements for when you’re old."

  10. #10
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,884
    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    So then the bladder acts as a means to separate the air chamber into two and depending on the speed of compression it makes the lower chamber, where the oil resides, smaller or larger thus creating a more or less progressive spring?

    _MK
    I dunno for the TST ... it's closed. It does not take advantage of the "open bath chamber". The leg does not share the oil with the TST cartridge as far as i know
    Check my Site

  11. #11
    not so super...
    Reputation: SSINGA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11,463
    I hve no clue WTF you just posted....so here is a bunny with TP on it's head!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Nothing to see here.

  12. #12
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,884
    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    I hve no clue WTF you just posted....so here is a bunny with TP on it's head!
    So you mean there's a bunny inside the TST????
    Check my Site

  13. #13
    MK_
    MK_ is offline
    carpe mańana
    Reputation: MK_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    7,278
    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    I hve no clue WTF you just posted....so here is a bunny with TP on it's head!
    LOL!

    _MK

    "The things you get fired for when you’re young are the same things you get Lifetime Achievements for when you’re old."

  14. #14
    not so super...
    Reputation: SSINGA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11,463
    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    So you mean there's a bunny inside the TST????
    Yes. That is the magic behind the fantastic performance of the TST. The Bunny!!!!!!!
    Nothing to see here.

  15. #15

    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    446

    Cute @@@

    Hugs the Bunny!!!

  16. #16
    mtbr platinum member
    Reputation: bikerx40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,426
    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    Yes. That is the magic behind the fantastic performance of the TST. The Bunny!!!!!!!
    How many CC's of oil does Marzocchi recommend putting into the bunny?
    I stopped driving my bike into my garage - I'm now protected with Roof Rack Ranger app for my iPhone.

  17. #17
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,884
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    How many CC's of oil does Marzocchi recommend putting into the bunny?
    That's a secret and the reason why you gotta send the bunny, ur... sorry, cartridge back to Zoke for oil change.
    Check my Site

  18. #18
    not so super...
    Reputation: SSINGA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11,463
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    How many CC's of oil does Marzocchi recommend putting into the bunny?
    Zocchi recommends 180ml, but we all know that a bunny cannot possibly hold that much so like always it is a trial and error method on your part.
    Nothing to see here.

Similar Threads

  1. 2006 Marzocchi Suspension Intro - Austria
    By Photo-John in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 09-01-2005, 09:33 AM
  2. Everything you need to know about the PIKE's Motion Control Damping!
    By MicroHuck in forum Shocks and Suspension
    Replies: 107
    Last Post: 02-21-2005, 10:25 AM
  3. Whistler and 2005 Marzocchi Line
    By Photo-John in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 08-10-2004, 03:46 PM

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.