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  1. #1
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    Manitou Mezzer

    The Manitou Mezzer is here! lets get into some details!

    37mm Chassis that is the stiffest single crown fork on the market.

    Torsionally, the Mezzer is 30% stiffer than a Fox 36, 16% stiffer than a Ohlins RFX36, 1% stiffer than a Lyrik

    Fore-aft, the Mezzer is 7% stiffer than a 36, 20% stiffer than a RFX, and 4% stiffer than a Lyrik

    140mm-180mm travel in both 27.5" and 29" wheel sizes. Boost 110 only. 37mm and 44mm offsets available for the 27.5 forks, 44mm and 51mm for 29"

    2000g for a 180mm 27.5' fork

    Dorado air spring with larger negative air chamber for linear initial stroke, IRT chamber volume has been reduced to add progression for the big hits.

    Bladder style MC2 damper to reduce friction. 5 clicks HSC, 10 clicks LSC, 12 clicks LSR.

    HBO circuit provides extra bottom out resistance for the last 30mm of the stroke. No external adjustment ( The IRT volume adjustment provides enough progressiveness that its not needed)

    Bladder cartridge has a blow of valve (BOV) to prevent it from over filling between services. No ruptured bladders here.

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    Thanks Nick!

    Couple questions:

    -when does the Mara make it on the website?



    -why are the lowers still aluminum? is that just for cost?

    -how did they make this lighter than a Fox 36 using AL lowers?

    -the spec weight is pretty much the same as the Mattoc, what did they do to compensate for the weight of the larger chassis to come in at same weight?

    -what other "unprecedented features" does it have (besides stanchion size)?

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Dorado air spring with larger negative air chamber for linear initial stroke, IRT chamber volume has been reduced to add progression for the big hits.
    Thats best features! Exactly what mattoc lacks.

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    as far as I know, the lowers are magnesium on all the Manitou forks. I dont have any info stating they are aluminum

    a lot of time and design went into making the Mezzer the stiffest chassis as possible at the lowest weight. 37mm stanchions are not just a marketing ploy to be bigger than everyone else. Testing showed they had the best strength to weight ratio.

    The fully sealed bladder damper is a big deal as well. lighter weight, higher performance. The BOV is a patent pending design to solve the biggest issue that bladder style cartridges have.

    Make no mistake, this is not meant to be a budget fork. This fork was designed to be the best on the market.

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    SUPER bummed its another damned sealed damper. What's the service procedure like?
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Thats best features! Exactly what mattoc lacks.
    In reality, the Mattoc was designed to be a trail fork to compete with the Fox 34. The spring was tuned accordingly. With no Mezzer in the line up, people used it as a Pike/36 alternative. It did a great job punching above its weight class, but now it can fall back into place where it belongs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    In reality, the Mattoc was designed to be a trail fork to compete with the Fox 34. The spring was tuned accordingly. With no Mezzer in the line up, people used it as a Pike/36 alternative. It did a great job punching above its weight class, but now it can fall back into place where it belongs.
    so initial sensitivity is not allowed for trial riding? cmon... I know you will always have an answer

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    37mm Chassis that is the stiffest single crown fork on the market.

    Torsionally, the Mezzer is 30% stiffer than a Fox 36, 16% stiffer than a Ohlins RFX36, 1% stiffer than a Lyrik

    Fore-aft, the Mezzer is 7% stiffer than a 36, 20% stiffer than a RFX, and 4% stiffer than a Lyrik
    Who did this testing and what methods were used? I would like to see the data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    SUPER bummed its another damned sealed damper. What's the service procedure like?
    doesnt matter. It has to be lightest in its class. Not so far ago Manitou lovers was saying bladder is shitty solution.

    PS joking a little bit. Im stoked to ride this fork.

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    crown to axle height?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    as far as I know, the lowers are magnesium on all the Manitou forks. I dont have any info stating they are aluminum
    ...

    Make no mistake, this is not meant to be a budget fork. This fork was designed to be the best on the market.
    thanks. the marketing copy still shows "7050 aluminum" listed for leg material.

    anyway to verify this? i think it would attract more buyers if mag, absent pics of verified weights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    thanks. the marketing copy still shows "7050 aluminum" listed for leg material.

    anyway to verify this? i think it would attract more buyers if mag, absent pics of verified weights.
    Leg material is referring to the stanchions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Who did this testing and what methods were used? I would like to see the data.
    I am not sure of the testing method, but I believe there are plots of the data. I will try to dig them up if I can (Im not a Manitou or Hayes employee, so my access is limited)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    doesnt matter. It has to be lightest in its class. Not so far ago Manitou lovers was saying bladder is shitty solution.

    PS joking a little bit. Im stoked to ride this fork.
    Just my personal opinion, but bladder style dampers were issues in the past. I personally blew up 2 charger dampers (ruptured bladders), both times they had less than 20 hours on them. This is the issue with bladder style dampers.

    There is no such thing as a perfect seal, bath oil will migrate past the rebound shaft seal into the damper on all designs. That is why the damper has a blow off to purge excess oil. Performance advantages of the bladder system without (my opinion) the biggest drawback.


    As for servicing, I cant answer that as I have not worked on one. Manitou is pretty good at making products user serviceable, so I suspect it will be fairly easy for a tech savvy user.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I am not sure of the testing method, but I believe there are plots of the data. I will try to dig them up if I can (Im not a Manitou or Hayes employee, so my access is limited)
    interested in methods just because i didn't know Lyriks were regarded as significantly stiffer than Fox 36. pretty cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Just my personal opinion, but bladder style dampers were issues in the past. I personally blew up 2 charger dampers (ruptured bladders), both times they had less than 20 hours on them. This is the issue with bladder style dampers.

    There is no such thing as a perfect seal, bath oil will migrate past the rebound shaft seal into the damper on all designs. That is why the damper has a blow off to purge excess oil. Performance advantages of the bladder system without (my opinion) the biggest drawback.


    As for servicing, I cant answer that as I have not worked on one. Manitou is pretty good at making products user serviceable, so I suspect it will be fairly easy for a tech savvy user.
    I will not defend charger, but owned pike and own boxxer. None blew out. None migrate oil. I have mattoc. Oil migration into negative spring chamber and into damper. Its not perfect but its damper is superior.

    Anyway I hope mezzer is closest to perfect than the rest of its competitor. At least details are promising. If its mattoc with improved volumes of air spring, stiffer with more travel, less seal drag in damper. Thats the winner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    I will not defend charger, but owned pike and own boxxer. None blew out. None migrate oil. I have mattoc. Oil migration into negative spring chamber and into damper. Its not perfect but its damper is superior.

    Anyway I hope mezzer is closest to perfect than the rest of its competitor. At least details are promising. If its mattoc with improved volumes of air spring, stiffer with more travel, less seal drag in damper. Thats the winner.
    In Rock shox defense, both the dampers I ruptured where charger 1 dampers with seal heads that were redesigned after the first year. they still ingest oil, but not at the rate they did at first and ruptures have been regulated to those who dont service their forks. The blow off on the MC2 just lengthens service intervals to prevent possible issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    interested in methods just because i didn't know Lyriks were regarded as significantly stiffer than Fox 36. pretty cool.
    Yep, i remember reading one of those german mags testing fork deflection on a work bench and their results didn't jive with my own experience. Did a little testing on my own with a torque wrench and realized they were basically testing how tight the build tolerances were- their torque value was too low for it to mean anything on the trail.
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    I'm not familiar with the workings of Manitou forks .

    How does the progression work? How us it adjusted??

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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    Any word on if the rest of the lineup is going to get reduced offsets as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apolonios View Post
    I'm not familiar with the workings of Manitou forks .

    How does the progression work? How us it adjusted??

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    pressure in IRT.

    https://nsmb.com/media/images/FerdaNerds.original.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    nice and interesting description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    nice and interesting description.
    Agreed. Nice to see a little more about it. Can't wait for a teardown video and the service videos to start popping up. Wondering what the "Comp" level version will end up getting rid of? Maybe the IRT but have the ability to add aftermarket? Maybe DoradoAir changes to something else?

    Absolutely love that they are finally jumping on the boat for the different fork offsets.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Agreed. Nice to see a little more about it. Can't wait for a teardown video and the service videos to start popping up. Wondering what the "Comp" level version will end up getting rid of? Maybe the IRT but have the ability to add aftermarket? Maybe DoradoAir changes to something else?

    Absolutely love that they are finally jumping on the boat for the different fork offsets.
    From the info I have, comp model will have expert air (dame as dorado air but with a steel shaft to keep costs down), the vtt damper(doesn't mention if it will be a cartridge or not), and IVA instead of IRT.

    It does mention that the chassis will be the same in the info, so it's likely it will be upgradable to pro internals.

  26. #26
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    OK, interesting but I'm getting tired of all the '% stiffer than.....' claims.
    How TF is that even measured?
    Adding up all the '% stiffer than..." from the past 20 years we should be running granite forks and equipment by now.

    Price? / Pics? / Reviews?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    OK, interesting but I'm getting tired of all the '% stiffer than.....' claims.
    How TF is that even measured?
    Adding up all the '% stiffer than..." from the past 20 years we should be running granite forks and equipment by now.

    Price? / Pics? / Reviews?

    $999 MSRP (USD). Availability is about 2 weeks out, user reviews shortly after I would guess. Press initial thoughts should be posted shortly I would think, there are test bikes in Garda for the enduro this weekend.

  28. #28
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    Axle-Crown measurements are up on my site: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou...manitou-mezzer

    574mm for 27"
    594mm for 29"
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    Adding up all the '% stiffer than..." from the past 20 years we should be running granite forks and equipment by now.
    We are. Have you ridden an old bike lately?

    10 years ago I bought and built a 1997 Marin Team Marin steel hardtail. Took it for one ride and realised how much my riding had changed in the 15 years prior. Sold it.
    That was compared to the other mid 00 vintage bikes I was riding at the time. I still have those mid 00 bikes and they're noodles compared to my current bikes.

    The whole front end stiffness increase from wider hubs, wider forks, tapered steerers and bigger bars is huge.

    The only forks that had any stiffness back in the day were 5-6lb. Manitou Sherman and Travis were literally tanks. But the wider stance of forks now means we've got even more stiffness and a lot less weight.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    Very nice and I am really happy to see the graphics. Takes me back to 1991.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Thanks.

    So I'm assuming it's just a secondary air chamber, that affects end of travel?


    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apolonios View Post
    Thanks.

    So I'm assuming it's just a secondary air chamber, that affects end of travel?


    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Yes, two positive air chambers with the 2nd (IRT) adding mid stroke support and bottom resistance. The IRT system allows for a bunch of different spring curves from close to linear to very progressive with the ability to tune different parts of the stroke specifically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    From the info I have, comp model will have expert air (dame as dorado air but with a steel shaft to keep costs down), the vtt damper(doesn't mention if it will be a cartridge or not), and IVA instead of IRT.

    It does mention that the chassis will be the same in the info, so it's likely it will be upgradable to pro internals.
    its an open bath damper in the comp.

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    So 37mm offset only available on non-boost 27.5" fork?

    Looks like another good option.

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    Im still riding and still gushing over my mattoc. The only marginal complaint I ever had was that it's not all that stiff at 160mm, with me at 210lb. This fixes that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Im still riding and still gushing over my mattoc. The only marginal complaint I ever had was that it's not all that stiff at 160mm, with me at 210lb. This fixes that!
    which damper do you have? Have you pulled it apart?

    I'm lookin really hard at this fork for an upcoming enormous 29er hardtail build, and your endorsement carries a lot of weight to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    So 37mm offset only available on non-boost 27.5" fork?

    Looks like another good option.
    There will be a non Boost option?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    which damper do you have? Have you pulled it apart?

    I'm lookin really hard at this fork for an upcoming enormous 29er hardtail build, and your endorsement carries a lot of weight to me.
    Well thank you. I have the expert, so it's full open. I haven't opened it, but I probably will at the end of summer.

    I'm not thrilled about a bladder, but Manitou has been surprising me for a while now. I'm big on diy and I hope Manitou sticks with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Yes, two positive air chambers with the 2nd (IRT) adding mid stroke support and bottom resistance. The IRT system allows for a bunch of different spring curves from close to linear to very progressive with the ability to tune different parts of the stroke specifically.

    Referring to the difference in initial sensitivity of fox evol air and the lyrics rc2 debonair, did they improve the mezzer s negative springs size, the sealing and tolerances so that the mezzer is going to match or surpass the lyriks sensitivity? The mattoc lacked in that department.

    The solo air Dorado air was far too saggy with less midstroke support. Love the irt, BUT I dislike that they reduzed the IRTs size on the mezzer. Will that not lead to lesssss midstroke support, the irt was originally designed for? Or have they changed the Dorado air that way that it will have more midstroke support itself?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    We are. Have you ridden an old bike lately?

    10 years ago I bought and built a 1997 Marin Team Marin steel hardtail. Took it for one ride and realised how much my riding had changed in the 15 years prior. Sold it.
    That was compared to the other mid 00 vintage bikes I was riding at the time. I still have those mid 00 bikes and they're noodles compared to my current bikes.

    The whole front end stiffness increase from wider hubs, wider forks, tapered steerers and bigger bars is huge.

    The only forks that had any stiffness back in the day were 5-6lb. Manitou Sherman and Travis were literally tanks. But the wider stance of forks now means we've got even more stiffness and a lot less weight.
    Yeah, my early '00 Rocky Mountain Element Race.
    A light XC race machine. There's no noodle about that frame. Climbs great, quick and nimble.
    Kris King 36 spoke hubs + Mavic X819 Disc rims, tubeless setup. Stiff and light.
    True, the fork isn't the the best (Manitou Black) but it's not even close to be a noodle POS.

    So... true the new stuff is great but the old stuff is not even close to being junk. Just tired of all the KoolAid marketing babble and most eat it up without thinking. Based on marketing and the latest hype I would have been better off just walking back in the day.
    There are tons of new equipment (forks for example) that are just built cheaply compared to the older stuff. My old Manitou was built better than my '18 RS Pike RCT3.
    The new one piece cassettes... well they are nice but WTF. If one tooth breaks or bends I'm out $200. Old one, well just replace that cog/ring/gear with a new one.

    Soapbox time over for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Referring to the difference in initial sensitivity of fox evol air and the lyrics rc2 debonair, did they improve the mezzer s negative springs size, the sealing and tolerances so that the mezzer is going to match or surpass the lyriks sensitivity? The mattoc lacked in that department.

    The solo air Dorado air was far too saggy with less midstroke support. Love the irt, BUT I dislike that they reduzed the IRTs size on the mezzer. Will that not lead to lesssss midstroke support, the irt was originally designed for? Or have they changed the Dorado air that way that it will have more midstroke support itself?
    Bigger negative - more supplenes and better midstroke
    Smaller irt - better progression, I'd say the same midstroke support. Mattoc irt was too big, resulting in flatty endstroke or you have to pump up crazy pressure.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    So 37mm offset only available on non-boost 27.5" fork?

    Looks like another good option.
    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    There will be a non Boost option?
    Boost only. Reduced offset is a different crown and I'm still awaiting model codes for those options.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Well thank you. I have the expert, so it's full open. I haven't opened it, but I probably will at the end of summer.

    I'm not thrilled about a bladder, but Manitou has been surprising me for a while now. I'm big on diy and I hope Manitou sticks with it.
    Manitou have historically been huge on picking a size and sticking with it for maximum interchange. Their current 30mm seals are backwards compatible to the 2000 Xvert. 32mm seals to the 2003 Shermans, 34mm seals to the 2006 Nixon etc.
    So I'd expect any bladder will be available for a long time and servicable with normal tools. Most likely a syringe bleed system like brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Referring to the difference in initial sensitivity of fox evol air and the lyrics rc2 debonair, did they improve the mezzer s negative springs size, the sealing and tolerances so that the mezzer is going to match or surpass the lyriks sensitivity? The mattoc lacked in that department.

    The solo air Dorado air was far too saggy with less midstroke support. Love the irt, BUT I dislike that they reduzed the IRTs size on the mezzer. Will that not lead to lesssss midstroke support, the irt was originally designed for? Or have they changed the Dorado air that way that it will have more midstroke support itself?
    The engineers know what they're doing. This is their first chance to layout a new air spring with positive/negative and IRT to get exactly the curve they wanted.
    Previous Dorado and Mattoc forks had positive/negative air first and IRT came along later.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    Yeah, my early '00 Rocky Mountain Element Race.
    A light XC race machine. There's no noodle about that frame. Climbs great, quick and nimble.
    Kris King 36 spoke hubs + Mavic X819 Disc rims, tubeless setup. Stiff and light.
    True, the fork isn't the the best (Manitou Black) but it's not even close to be a noodle POS.

    So... true the new stuff is great but the old stuff is not even close to being junk. Just tired of all the KoolAid marketing babble and most eat it up without thinking. Based on marketing and the latest hype I would have been better off just walking back in the day.
    There are tons of new equipment (forks for example) that are just built cheaply compared to the older stuff. My old Manitou was built better than my '18 RS Pike RCT3.
    The new one piece cassettes... well they are nice but WTF. If one tooth breaks or bends I'm out $200. Old one, well just replace that cog/ring/gear with a new one.

    Soapbox time over for now.
    The black wasn't an XC race fork. It was the biggest fork Manitou had outside the Xvert/Dorado dual crowns when it was launched in 2002. It was the fork specced on an Intense Uzzi SLX. I have both here.
    The stanchions while being 30mm OD are over twice as thick in the wall than many forks today.

    They basically halved the stanchion wall thickness to make the XC version (Manitou R7) in 2006 and even then it held a 150kg E-bike and cargo-bike rating when it was stopped in 2018.

    The 2000 XC race fork was the 28.6mm Manitou MARS (which became the Skareb when they went reverse arch). I have one on my commuter bike which hangs in the garage and hasn't been ridden for 10 years.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  43. #43
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    Yes you are right, it's not a super light XC fork but it's not really heavy either.
    The bike is overforked for sure. It's the 100/120 mm version and the frame is designed for 80/100 mm (I run/ran 120 mm most of the time).

    I always liked Manitou for some reason. Also got a '00 Manitou X-Vert Air 105 (single crown) laying around. TPC+ damper, MRD crown. Really really nice fork.
    Name:  X-Vert Air.jpg
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    Anyhow. All good just needed to rant a bit.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Boost only. Reduced offset is a different crown and I'm still awaiting model codes for those options.



    Manitou have historically been huge on picking a size and sticking with it for maximum interchange. Their current 30mm seals are backwards compatible to the 2000 Xvert. 32mm seals to the 2003 Shermans, 34mm seals to the 2006 Nixon etc.
    So I'd expect any bladder will be available for a long time and servicable with normal tools. Most likely a syringe bleed system like brakes.



    The engineers know what they're doing. This is their first chance to layout a new air spring with positive/negative and IRT to get exactly the curve they wanted.
    Previous Dorado and Mattoc forks had positive/negative air first and IRT came along later.



    The black wasn't an XC race fork. It was the biggest fork Manitou had outside the Xvert/Dorado dual crowns when it was launched in 2002. It was the fork specced on an Intense Uzzi SLX. I have both here.
    The stanchions while being 30mm OD are over twice as thick in the wall than many forks today.

    They basically halved the stanchion wall thickness to make the XC version (Manitou R7) in 2006 and even then it held a 150kg E-bike and cargo-bike rating when it was stopped in 2018.

    The 2000 XC race fork was the 28.6mm Manitou MARS (which became the Skareb when they went reverse arch). I have one on my commuter bike which hangs in the garage and hasn't been ridden for 10 years.
    OK, thx.

    When will the 29er 44mm offset be available in Europe, Germany? Do you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    OK, thx.

    When will the 29er 44mm offset be available in Europe, Germany? Do you know?
    I don't have shipping confirmation for reduced offset versions yet.

    From my perspective the reduced offset models are the ones in demand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Bigger negative - more supplenes and better midstroke
    Smaller irt - better progression, I'd say the same midstroke support. Mattoc irt was too big, resulting in flatty endstroke or you have to pump up crazy pressure.
    I reckon it wouldn't be too hard to reduce the IRT volume on the Mcttoc by reducing the shaft length if you'd really want to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I reckon it wouldn't be too hard to reduce the IRT volume on the Mcttoc by reducing the shaft length if you'd really want to.
    Its not so easy. The whole spring needs proper ratios between main and IRT. In mattoc at 160 main and IRT are too big, while negative is too small. I have foam from Suntour to reduce volume of IRT. Fits perfectly. With reduced IRT and ratio 2,5 between main and IRT, it works best for me. Supple initial and enough ramp up. Closest to coil.

    I bet mezzer has it worked out for perfect ratios as they mention some improvements to air spring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    This guy is one of the better product explainers I've seen. I like how each feature has a purpose.

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    I take it changing travel will be as simple as the other Manitou forks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I reckon it wouldn't be too hard to reduce the IRT volume on the Mcttoc by reducing the shaft length if you'd really want to.
    Just put a spacer on the shaft. Easy to try and completely reversable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I take it changing travel will be as simple as the other Manitou forks?
    Correct. Spacers will be included with every fork

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    Manitou Mezzer-manitour-mezzer-hayes-sun-ringle-news-2019-5357-1140x760.jpg

    Thank God the stupid thread-into-lowers shaft design of the Mattoc is gone! Fox style assembly with a nut is MUCH more user friendly and MUCH less prone to stripping the threads in the lowers or ovalizing the moronic 8mm hex on the air shaft! (Don't ask me how I know and why I've got RS product in the front now).
    Phew, now I have no reason to NOT go back to Manitou Oh well, time to start saving some cash....

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Just put a spacer on the shaft. Easy to try and completely reversable.
    That sounds a lot smarter!

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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Manitour-Mezzer-Hayes-Sun-Ringle-News-2019-5357-1140x760.jpg 
Views:	295 
Size:	133.1 KB 
ID:	1249959

    Thank God the stupid thread-into-lowers shaft design of the Mattoc is gone! Fox style assembly with a nut is MUCH more user friendly and MUCH less prone to stripping the threads in the lowers or ovalizing the moronic 8mm hex on the air shaft! (Don't ask me how I know and why I've got RS product in the front now).
    Phew, now I have no reason to NOT go back to Manitou Oh well, time to start saving some cash....

    That looks like the normal setup. You probably use (I don't know this) the same mattoc set up with the thin walled socket that removes the air side and the Allen key that turns clockwise to loosen the damper side.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Its not so easy. The whole spring needs proper ratios between main and IRT. In mattoc at 160 main and IRT are too big, while negative is too small. I have foam from Suntour to reduce volume of IRT. Fits perfectly. With reduced IRT and ratio 2,5 between main and IRT, it works best for me. Supple initial and enough ramp up. Closest to coil.

    I bet mezzer has it worked out for perfect ratios as they mention some improvements to air spring.
    Are you saying you are running a 2.5:1 ratio in the IRT? So for 50 PSI in main you are running 125 in the IRT? What were you running before reducing the IRT volume?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    I would gladly give up 3.265% of stiffness for a forward facing crown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    I would gladly give up 3.265% of stiffness for a forward facing crown.
    Why? The engineering advantage of the rear facing crown makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Why? The engineering advantage of the rear facing crown makes sense.
    Strictly and stupidly for my own vanity.

    On a side not the new line routing is much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Strictly and stupidly for my own vanity.

    Just put Fox stickers on it. Most people at the trailhead have never heard of Manitou before and you can tell them it is a prototype.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    That looks like the normal setup. You probably use (I don't know this) the same mattoc set up with the thin walled socket that removes the air side and the Allen key that turns clockwise to loosen the damper side.
    Well, I do see a nut when I zoom in...or at least my brain's doing some additional detailing to make me see it Soon enough there'll be more detailed pictures.

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    The creator of Morvelo was on a pod recently and dropped an interesting factoid: mountain riders prefer mainstream brands more when compared to road riders. Morvelo is an alternative brand with the ethos of comfortable, affordable and stylish cycling gear. Their road stuff sells well but they’re struggling to get the mountain stuff to take off. This is super interesting when you think about the perception of mountain riding being about counter culture, the risk taking, thrill seeking individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    The creator of Morvelo was on a pod recently and dropped an interesting factoid: mountain riders prefer mainstream brands more when compared to road riders. Morvelo is an alternative brand with the ethos of comfortable, affordable and stylish cycling gear. Their road stuff sells well but they’re struggling to get the mountain stuff to take off. This is super interesting when you think about the perception of mountain riding being about counter culture, the risk taking, thrill seeking individual.
    I think it has more to do with road bikes being a mature product, whereas the mtb market has a history of weird-balls innovation and using the consumer to test product. MTBers want the latest and greatest, but they want the backing of an established company that needs to ensure that the product builds on their previous reputation.



    More related to this thread, imo the suspension fork market today is a reflection of the reliability problems from the 2007-2010 mass production outsourcing to asia.

    -RS did it first and well, and they emerged as the titans of forks, despite moco being somewhat mediocre even at the time.

    -Fox, i don't remember what they did, but they avoided reliability problems during this time period and emerged unscathed.

    -Marzo and Manitou had a couple years of QC problems, and they've never recovered the public perception.

    -CC, MRP, and DVO emerged later, and aren't given so much skepticism.


    Now RockFox widely marketed and is on all the production builds. People see it as desirable and everyone knows their quirks. Whether they're truly making the best product is less important.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    On a side not the new line routing is much better.
    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post


    Why?
    For the same reason they changed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    This guy is one of the better product explainers I've seen. I like how each feature has a purpose.
    that dude's legit. even more faith in hayes after watching that. no nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    The creator of Morvelo was on a pod recently and dropped an interesting factoid: mountain riders prefer mainstream brands more when compared to road riders. Morvelo is an alternative brand with the ethos of comfortable, affordable and stylish cycling gear. Their road stuff sells well but they’re struggling to get the mountain stuff to take off. This is super interesting when you think about the perception of mountain riding being about counter culture, the risk taking, thrill seeking individual.
    interesting tidbit. a local shop was telling me how riders came in wanting kashima fox transfers over the Bikeyoke droppers the shop builds with no matter how much the shop pleaded with them to take the better functioning Revive.

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    Got to say, I am a little sad I have my DVO fork coming for my 29" build and not one of these (though I've had quite good luck with DVO in the past). Looks like a good option and I'm excited to hear reviews.

    Thanks for the video link as well. Looks pretty legit.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    For the same reason they changed it.
    It has the old routing as well, they give you the option on how you want to route it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    It has the old routing as well, they give you the option on how you want to route it.
    Ahh sweet, Manitou rocks!! Now I'm hoping they make the Mara in a 185x55 trunnion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    For the same reason they changed it.
    They included the option to run it like a front-crowned fork because some people asked for it.



    If anything, the old routing is better because it doesn't touch your lowers and it's less likely to get snagged.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    They included the option to run it like a front-crowned fork because some people asked for it.



    If anything, the old routing is better because it doesn't touch your lowers and it's less likely to get snagged.
    That depends on whether you run your front brake on the left or right side of your handlebars.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by neb View Post
    That depends on whether you run your front brake on the left or right side of your handlebars.
    As a lefty, i know how it is when you wanna do everything backward.
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    I just didn't care for the routing on my Mastodon at all.

  73. #73
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    Here are the stiffness testing plots. Foot sounds of force vs displacement. The lower the line, the less the fork flexed under testing

    Manitou Mezzer-image001.png

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    what about the 27.5

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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    what about the 27.5
    Those are the only plots Im aware of.

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    Nice figures, mullen. I have examined them.

    I cannot interpret the first figure because I do not know what the maximum torsional force would be on a fork. It could be 100lbs and then the results would be 1mm apart which is insignificant. It seems that this would be controlled by tire side traction. I think I could measure this but it would take some effort.

    The fore-aft is more useful because a simple calculation would yield a typical force during a panic stop. But it seems they could have gone higher.

    The differences are so small that I would like to see a sample size. If this is just one fork being tested, there could be variations in bushing tolerance that would change the result.

  77. #77
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    I asked this in the "spotted" thread but here is more appropriate:

    What's the max tire size of the Mezzer in 275 and 29 models?

    DERP! From Shockcraft:

    "Mezzer 27"
    140-180 mm travel
    110 x 15 mm boost axle
    Tapered steerer tube
    Bolt on mudguard fender
    Fits 2.8" tyre without fender, 2.6" with.
    Disc brake only (180+ mm post mount)
    44 mm Offset (37mm version coming)
    574mm Axle-Crown measurement (180mm)
    2000 g (4.4 lb)

    Mezzer 29"
    140-180 mm travel
    110 x 15 mm boost axle
    Tapered steerer tube
    Bolt on mudguard fender
    Fits 2.8" tyre without fender, 2.6" with.
    Disc brake only (180+ mm post mount)
    51 mm Offset (44mm version coming)
    594mm Axle-Crown measurement (180mm)
    2032 g (4.4 lb)"

    So here's mayber a better question: what's the width between the stanchions? As in, what's the widest 275+ tire I could run in the 29" model?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Nice figures, mullen. I have examined them.

    I cannot interpret the first figure because I do not know what the maximum torsional force would be on a fork. It could be 100lbs and then the results would be 1mm apart which is insignificant. It seems that this would be controlled by tire side traction. I think I could measure this but it would take some effort.

    The fore-aft is more useful because a simple calculation would yield a typical force during a panic stop. But it seems they could have gone higher.

    The differences are so small that I would like to see a sample size. If this is just one fork being tested, there could be variations in bushing tolerance that would change the result.
    While all of your points are valid, I doubt any suspension manufacture would take the time to power a study to determine true statistical significance in these numbers.

    Thinking about it, does anybody show graphs about the stiffness? I remember in the old days, road bikes used to have fork deflection and stiffness scores. I doubt anybody does that anymore.

    I would say the take home message would be, we are as stiff as the rest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Those are the only plots Im aware of.
    Do you know when this fork will be available in the USA?

    Thanks

  80. #80
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    So im glad they beefed it up, but who cares. As long as the MC2 functions basically the same, this fork has an absolute trail erasing damper setup. If you're stuck on the arch, or the sticker, or even how stiff a 37mm 2000+g fork is, I think you're missing 95% of what makes this fork, this fork. Theres no way this thing is not stiff.

    We need ride reports and input. It took real riders putting in miles with the mattoc to basically put manitou back on the map.

    FWIW, I love the reverse arch! Im not riding a fox or RS fork, and I'm glad im not. I like that it stands out as uniquely a manitou product. Its not a copy or a knockoff of something else, it stands alone and is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Do you know when this fork will be available in the USA?

    Thanks
    mid may according to the website

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    Tire size max is 2.8 with no fender. 3.0 or larger is considered plus tires.

    In theory, you could go 27.5x.3.0 or possibly even wider with a mezzer 29 since 27.5+ and 29 are essentially the same size. That is not official though.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Tire size max is 2.8 with no fender. 3.0 or larger is considered plus tires.

    In theory, you could go 27.5x.3.0 or possibly even wider with a mezzer 29 since 27.5+ and 29 are essentially the same size. That is not official though.
    Point well made. However, pedantic people will argue plus starts at 2.6

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Point well made. However, pedantic people will argue plus starts at 2.6
    I wouldn't argue against them either. That's why it should be considered a bonus that you can run 2.8 with no fender.

    You can't make everyone happy. If the they could run 3.0 tires, people running 2.4-2.5 tires would complain about the extra A2C it takes to achieve those numbers.

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    What limits the travel to 140mm? I.e. if you wanted to run this fork at 130mm could you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    What limits the travel to 140mm? I.e. if you wanted to run this fork at 130mm could you?
    From a logical point of view, my guess is that the stanchion shaft is still rather long, so the lowest it can go is 140mm travel?


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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    What limits the travel to 140mm? I.e. if you wanted to run this fork at 130mm could you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow4eva View Post
    From a logical point of view, my guess is that the stanchion shaft is still rather long, so the lowest it can go is 140mm travel?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You can shrink a fork to 0 travel if you want. But going too low means the air chambers end up very different size to design. You would likely need volume reduction in negative and positive to get it feeling good.

    What Manitou are saying is, this fork willl run great between 140-180mm. If you want less than 140mm you should be looking at our other forks.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassieno View Post
    What limits the travel to 140mm? I.e. if you wanted to run this fork at 130mm could you?
    Technically speaking, you can run at any travel you want.

    The only issue is that as you add travel spacers, you also add to the negative spring volume. Once you get to 140mm, the spring volume becomes too large and the soring rate can suffer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You can shrink a fork to 0 travel if you want. But going too low means the air chambers end up very different size to design. You would likely need volume reduction in negative and positive to get it feeling good.

    What Manitou are saying is, this fork willl run great between 140-180mm. If you want less than 140mm you should be looking at our other forks.
    Ah, that explains it! I come from a computer background, so I have some difficulty understanding mechanical and engineering stuff at times..


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    i still am in awe that the lyrik tested substantially stiffer than the 36.

    i think that pretty much everyone assumes the 36 is the stiffest.

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    36 is most expensive, I think people just draw assumptions from that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    i still am in awe that the lyrik tested substantially stiffer than the 36.

    i think that pretty much everyone assumes the 36 is the stiffest.
    Fox probably loses stiffness on crown/stanchion fit. There's a lot of movement (and noise) there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    i still am in awe that the lyrik tested substantially stiffer than the 36.

    i think that pretty much everyone assumes the 36 is the stiffest.
    Those German bikemagszines regularly to test torsional and fire aft stiffness in their review by machines and not only feelings :-D
    And it shows in deed that the Lyrik is stiffer than the 36

  94. #94
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    Very broad question.

    How will this compare to the Dorado?

    I'm a huge Manitou fan, loved every piece of kit I've had from them.

    Just curious, will this be like a 1kg lighter Dorado or will it have a different feel?

    Ta
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant View Post
    Very broad question.

    How will this compare to the Dorado?

    I'm a huge Manitou fan, loved every piece of kit I've had from them.

    Just curious, will this be like a 1kg lighter Dorado or will it have a different feel?

    Ta
    That is a very broad question simply because you are talking about a comparison between two totally different genre. It would be like comparing a 4wd truck and a Subaru with AWD in their abilities offroad.

    Due to the dual crown structure, longer stanchions, etc. you are going to have a much different feel from the Dorado than you would with the Mezzer (single point of torsional contact vs. two points). But in generalities, you could probably say that the Mezzer is aimed at being the "burly little brother" of the Dorado.

  96. #96
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    The dorado is only 10ish millimeters taller than the mezzer at 180, but the offsets are quite different.

    ... the mezzer might feel more stable? Or more floppy, depending on how you feel about offset. I'm digging lower offsets, but I'm not on a huge ultra slack bike. I think damping will be comparable.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Fox probably loses stiffness on crown/stanchion fit. There's a lot of movement (and noise) there.

    Can you give some info on how it rides in comparison to a lyrik rc2 or avy tuned fork?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Can you give some info on how it rides in comparison to a lyrik rc2 or avy tuned fork?
    Avy tuned fork would not be a "fair" comparison as you are talking about a fork that has been specifically tuned for a riders style, terrain, weight, etc. to a stock aftermarket fork.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant View Post
    Very broad question.

    How will this compare to the Dorado?

    I'm a huge Manitou fan, loved every piece of kit I've had from them.

    Just curious, will this be like a 1kg lighter Dorado or will it have a different feel?

    Ta
    Can't comment on the Mezzer vs Dorado as my Mezzer hasn't shipped yet. But I stopped riding my Dorado once I had a 170mm Mattoc. I sold it shortly after. The Mattoc wasn't better than the Dorado, but the Mattoc did 95% of everything I needed and 170mm was close enough to 200mm.

    There is a major Dorado update coming. So expect exactly the same performance, just more travel and stiffness from the Dorado.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxcKG1siODQ/

    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Can you give some info on how it rides in comparison to a lyrik rc2 or avy tuned fork?
    The Lyrik RC2 has not enough damping for my 70kg. I haven't ridden an avalanche tuned fork.
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Can't comment on the Mezzer vs Dorado as my Mezzer hasn't shipped yet. But I stopped riding my Dorado once I had a 170mm Mattoc. I sold it shortly after. The Mattoc wasn't better than the Dorado, but the Mattoc did 95% of everything I needed and 170mm was close enough to 200mm.

    There is a major Dorado update coming. So expect exactly the same performance, just more travel and stiffness from the Dorado.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxcKG1siODQ/



    The Lyrik RC2 has not enough damping for my 70kg. I haven't ridden an avalanche tuned fork.
    But you coupd tell in which deoartments it has major benefits over the msttoc... Except stiffness

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Avy tuned fork would not be a "fair" comparison as you are talking about a fork that has been specifically tuned for a riders style, terrain, weight, etc. to a stock aftermarket fork.
    I know that difference which a soecifically tuned stack brings..... BUT tge question is if the damper is basucally as potent as the the avy?fitting other shimstack is no voodoo and friends if mine and do it ourselves.but would be nuce to know what we can expect

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Avy tuned fork would not be a "fair" comparison as you are talking about a fork that has been specifically tuned for a riders style, terrain, weight, etc. to a stock aftermarket fork.
    It shouldn't be fair to compare a stock McLeod to custom tuned shocks either. But look how well that turned out!

    Manitou has always had the best damping and that's why I've been riding them for 24 years now (since I stuck an EFC hydraulic damper cartridge in my 1995 Magnum).

    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    But you coupd tell in which deoartments it has major benefits over the msttoc... Except stiffness
    I'm expecting better small bump response and longer maintenance intervals. I'm 100% happy with the damping on my Mattoc (with my high flow piston). So I'll be stoked if they can improve on that.
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  103. #103
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    Anybody have a ride report on the Mezzer?

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Anybody have a ride report on the Mezzer?
    Shipping 1st July is the best info right now.

    So no.
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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Shipping 1st July is the best info right now.

    So no.
    Just bought a new fork and am already ready to dump it for the Mezzer

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    wonder if the larger stanchions contribute to more static friction than a lyrik.

  107. #107
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    Manitou Mezzer

    Interesting question, I’d like for someone with more knowledge to answer that. But I always thought “low friction” wiper seals were bs, cause they should be heavily greased and aren’t pressurized.

    If the airspring sealing surface is larger I could see that increasing friction.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    wonder if the larger stanchions contribute to more static friction than a lyrik.
    Unless you've got truely awful seals, the most friction comes from the bushings. Lately we've found a lot of quite tight Lyrik and F36 bushings that need burnishing to slide well. I don't know if that's a concious decision to stiffen up the fork or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Interesting question I would like for someone with more knowledge to answer that. But I always thought “low friction” wiper seals were bs, cause they should be heavily greased and aren’t pressurized.
    "Low Friction" seals work in either/or two ways. Firstly is reduced tension (which reduces sealing) and the second is allowing a film of oil past.

    The film of oil can be seen as a glossy sheen on the stanchions and it does mean bath oil gets depleted faster.

    But it's worth it.
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  109. #109
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    So after riding a coil fork last week I've been thinking about how to really soften up the initial stroke of a fork while still getting good mid-stroke and bottom out support.

    I've asked this before, and I've seen it more recently on the DT Swiss 535 - a coil spring that softens the initial travel before switching to the air spring.

    It sounds like Manitou might have used something similar in the past.

    Now, Manitou is doing this with the IRT air spring design, allowing independently tuned Negative chamber, Independently tuned Positive chamber, and a secondary chamber with transfer port for more mid-stroke support.

    My question is this: does anything on the market allow a similar air spring feel? I know MRP allows independent adjustment of the negative air spring. Can Ramp Control be used to mimic another air chamber ala IRT?
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    MRP Ribbon's separate negative chamber is to soften the initial stroke. DVO's OTT adjustment is a negative spring to soften the initial stoke.

    Ramp Control is completely different idea. Think of it as an air spring side (instead of damper) high speed compression control. It's connected to the positive spring and if it resembles anything it's volume spacers (but it's not that either).

    Initial stroke for MRP is all in the separate negative spring.

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    So after riding a coil fork last week I've been thinking about how to really soften up the initial stroke of a fork while still getting good mid-stroke and bottom out support.

    I've asked this before, and I've seen it more recently on the DT Swiss 535 - a coil spring that softens the initial travel before switching to the air spring.

    It sounds like Manitou might have used something similar in the past.

    Now, Manitou is doing this with the IRT air spring design, allowing independently tuned Negative chamber, Independently tuned Positive chamber, and a secondary chamber with transfer port for more mid-stroke support.

    My question is this: does anything on the market allow a similar air spring feel? I know MRP allows independent adjustment of the negative air spring. Can Ramp Control be used to mimic another air chamber ala IRT?
    yes - https://diazsuspensiondesign.com/runt

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Yup that is what came to mind for me as well. For lack of a better term it is similar to the IRT and OTT of Manitou and DVO.

  113. #113
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    but the Runt only control the positive side of the air spring, so I assume that having control over the negative side of the spring would be advantageous as well, right?

    So for example, something like the MRP Ribbon combined with the Runt might make for a IRT-like air spring?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    but the Runt only control the positive side of the air spring, so I assume that having control over the negative side of the spring would be advantageous as well, right?

    So for example, something like the MRP Ribbon combined with the Runt might make for a IRT-like air spring?
    Runt will behave exactly like IRT. Three air Chambers, negative and main filled by one valve and auto regulate, and then additional valve on top for IRT/Runt. Ratios will be different but it's a flexible configuration regardless.

    Great system.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  115. #115
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    Just to confirm, the RUNT will behave like IRT without the fork having it's own independently adjustable negative air chamber?

    So putting the Runt in something like an MRP Ribbon (or Mattoc or Mezzer) will be create redundant negative air chamber?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Just to confirm, the RUNT will behave like IRT without the fork having it's own independently adjustable negative air chamber?

    So putting the Runt in something like an MRP Ribbon (or Mattoc or Mezzer) will be create redundant negative air chamber?
    it has no effect on negative chamber. it provides two stages of positive spring similar to Manitou IRT.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    but the Runt only control the positive side of the air spring, so I assume that having control over the negative side of the spring would be advantageous as well, right?

    So for example, something like the MRP Ribbon combined with the Runt might make for a IRT-like air spring?
    what you are looking for is an adjustable negative chamber. Pressure and Volume. I don't know of any product that does that. All the ones you keep bringing up are on the positive side of the air spring.

  118. #118
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    I'm just not sure which is more important in creating that really plush first couple of MM of travel. Is that a product of a bushings, positive air chamber (or two stage positive chamber) or is it more on the negative side of the spring?

    From the reviews of the Runt, it sounds like negative spring is not as important as the two stage positive chamber.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So expect exactly the same performance, just more travel and stiffness from the Dorado.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxcKG1siODQ/
    More travel? 29 version only I guess?

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    USD$200 seems a bit rich and it's hardly a new "invention" as they claim, simply a copy of an IRT, with a bit more intricacy due to having to fill both chambers from the top.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boom King View Post
    USD$200 seems a bit rich and it's hardly a new "invention" as they claim, simply a copy of an IRT, with a bit more intricacy due to having to fill both chambers from the top.
    I think this is still the best spring tuning option riders who like to jump shit. Since SD Components stopped making the Dynamic Volume Chamber this is the only option for non manitou forks.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    More travel? 29 version only I guess?
    I think the distinction was between the Mezzer and the Dorado not between current and future Dorado updates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    IChamber this is the only option for non manitou forks.
    There is and has been for quite some time AWK system for less

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    There is and has been for quite some time AWK system for less
    I forgot about the awk. Not sure if it’s any cheaper once you convert euros to dollars, or how easy it is to order.

  125. #125
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    I’ve got a DSD runt sitting on my work bench going into my 170mm 36 grip2 tomorrow. Coming off an ACS coil and going back to air. Ill be racing on it this weekend on familiar terrain so I should get a feel for it. I’ll let you guys know if it’s worth $200.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    I forgot about the awk. Not sure if it’s any cheaper once you convert euros to dollars, or how easy it is to order.
    Theres a few euro stores selling them, price is about the same in USD once you convert, maybe cheaper if they remove VAT for you, but then theres shipping to consider. The AWK is probably the best of the lot design wise as they have considered different volumes for different travel ranges (ie theres a pike version for 120-140 and another for 140-160mm) so you get a more appropriate range of adjustment and you dont destroy the +/- chamber balance.

  127. #127
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    The runt is travel specific as well

  128. #128
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    I've contacted at least one of the Chickadeehill dealers and they wouldn't ship to the USA. If someone find one that does, let me know. I'd love to try the FOX 34 AWK.
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  129. #129
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    After spending the weekend riding a 36 with a runt I can say it's pretty impressive. The ACS coil (with the softer spring) had better small bump but it wasnt a huge difference. The runt outperformed it in all other aspects though. The runted air spring had the best midstroke support of any spring system Ive ridden (except for maybe the Ohlin with a similar system was on par but the small bump was less than stellar). With the ACS I felt I was in between springs. The green (recommended for my weight) was a little too soft and the black was way too hard. On the ACS I was running close to max high and low speed compression. I backed them out considerably with the runt. On the ACS I was running max ramp pressure and still bottoming pretty frequently in bike parks. With the Runt I finished a race weekend with about 20mm in unused travel. To me that's ideal as I like to keep a little in reserve. I will be tweaking pressure a little but I think Im pretty close to where I'll end up at 60psi in the main chamber and 125 in the runt. For reference I'm 190 RTR and was running about 80psi when I ran the stock evol. I'd have to say its worth the $200 if youre in the stock air spring. I'm thinking the Mezzer is going to be amazing. Looking forward to seeing some reviews on it.
    Last edited by jimarin; 06-24-2019 at 02:05 PM.

  130. #130
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    Dang that's quite a positive review.

    I'm going to track down a roundabout way of getting a AWK/RUNT for my Fox 34 while I patiently wait for the Mezzer reviews to come in.
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimarin View Post
    After spending the weekend riding a 36 with a runt I can say it's pretty impressive. The ACS coil (with the softer spring) had better small bump but it wasnt a huge difference. The runt outperformed it in all other aspects though. The runted air spring had the best midstroke support of any spring system Ive ridden (except for maybe the Ohlin with a similar system was on par but the small bump was less than stellar). With the ACS I felt I was in between springs. The green (recommended for my weight) was a little too soft and the black was way too hard. On the ACS I was running close to max high and low speed compression. I backed them out considerably with the runt. On the ACS I was running max ramp pressure and still bottoming pretty frequently in bike parks. With the Runt I finished a race weekend with about 20mm in unused travel. To me that's ideal as I like to keep a little in reserve. I will be tweaking pressure a little but I think Im pretty close to where I'll end up at 60psi in the main chamber and 125 in the runt. For reference I'm 190 RTR and was running about 80psi when I ran the stock evol. I'd have to say its worth the $200 if youre in the stock air spring. I'm thinking the Mezzer is going to be amazing. Looking forward to seeing some reviews on it.
    You really need to try a Mattoc with IRT.

    Mezzer aren't far away if shipping dates are to be believed!
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  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Manitour-Mezzer-Hayes-Sun-Ringle-News-2019-5357-1140x760.jpg 
Views:	295 
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ID:	1249959

    Thank God the stupid thread-into-lowers shaft design of the Mattoc is gone! Fox style assembly with a nut is MUCH more user friendly and MUCH less prone to stripping the threads in the lowers or ovalizing the moronic 8mm hex on the air shaft! (Don't ask me how I know and why I've got RS product in the front now).
    Phew, now I have no reason to NOT go back to Manitou Oh well, time to start saving some cash....
    You are correct. The Mezzer has nuts on the shafts.

    I'm wondering if with some creative drilling the same system could be applied to other manitou forks!
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You really need to try a Mattoc with IRT.

    Mezzer aren't far away if shipping dates are to be believed!
    I've heard nothing but good things about the mattoc. I'd be surprised if I'm not on a mezzer later in the season It has every feature I would want. I'm hoping this is the one I've been waiting for.

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    Anyone know if the mezzer's lowers nuts threads in clockwise or counterclockwise (like the mattoc)?

  135. #135
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    There is no reason why they would thread in counterclockwise. The Mattoc's shafts also have a normal-handed thread, so from their point of view they thread in clockwise as well.
    It's just a matter of perspective .

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimarin View Post
    I've heard nothing but good things about the mattoc. I'd be surprised if I'm not on a mezzer later in the season It has every feature I would want. I'm hoping this is the one I've been waiting for.
    You and me both brotha! I have been asking for a 29er long travel fork since they released the Mattoc (long travel being 150mm+).

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Anyone know if the mezzer's lowers nuts threads in clockwise or counterclockwise (like the mattoc)?
    Standard threads. The normal shafts go in clockwise because you're threading them into the fork to remove them.

    So nuts on them will be the standard lefty-loosey righty-tighty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You really need to try a Mattoc with IRT.
    This man speaks the truth!

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    Any update on these forks being available?

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    Any update on these forks being available?
    I don't know who is sucking up the majority of production. But I was able to secure only 3 forks.

    Should have them next week.
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  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I don't know who is sucking up the majority of production. But I was able to secure only 3 forks.

    Should have them next week.
    My understanding is that a lot of the first run was claimed by OEMs.

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    bummer for the manitou fans, but important for Manitou for sure to push back into that mainstream OEM market.

    maybe the Lyrik recall helps things

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    bummer for the manitou fans, but important for Manitou for sure to push back into that mainstream OEM market.

    maybe the Lyrik recall helps things
    There should still be aftermarket availability for those who want them. I wouldn't expect discounts though.

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    QBP shows ETA of 7/1 but is still OOS

    looks like they only ordered one size of 29 and one of 275, and the 29 is 51 offset

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    bummer for the manitou fans
    Nah, it's good! I'd love to see lots of discussion about ownership/set up/tweaking this fork, and them running around in the wild for people to try.
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  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    There should still be aftermarket availability for those who want them. I wouldn't expect discounts though.
    That honestly is good for Manitou. Also noticed that Mcleod's are in short supply. Hopefully that is because they are selling lots of them.
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    I believe the 51mm offset version is available directly on their website. The 4th of July code “FREEDOM” for 20% off should still be active for the rest of today.

  148. #148
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    What size socket will be necessary to remove top caps of the Mezzer?

    Trying to decide between just getting the flat faced sockets I need for the forks I currently have, or getting a larger set that covers forks I might have in the future.
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  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3ftone View Post
    I believe the 51mm offset version is available directly on their website. The 4th of July code “FREEDOM” for 20% off should still be active for the rest of today.
    Wow, that is a 29" 180mm Mezzer right now for $800. Pretty good deal.
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  150. #150
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    There is only one 29" model available - the 180mm 51mm offset. I'm sure the 44mm offset version sold out quick.
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    And the code doesn't seem to work any longer. Waiting for the Mara myself anyways.

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  153. #153
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    Overall looks good and clearly indicates that some of the best aspects of the Mattoc are still present in this fork.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    shame you can't bloody buy them yet

  155. #155
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    Funny thing is I am starting to see the Lyrik market dive a bit. 2017+ are now in the $450ish price range for used which kinda sucks because I was hoping to sell my current Lyrik for more than half of what the Mezzer would cost..

    Article definitely shines some positive light for the first impressions. Can't wait to see what the next review looks like after some time on it. Love the small, detailed guide that Manitou provides for setup.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    shame you can't bloody buy them yet
    Well, you can buy the 29" 180mm fork with 51 offset.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Well, you can buy the 29" 180mm fork with 51 offset.
    nothing in the UK. 170mm 37 offset 27.5 I'm after

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    nothing in the UK. 170mm 37 offset 27.5 I'm after
    Well, some of the 27.5 are finally available (180 mm, 44 offset) at least!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    eventually they will come I suppose. In no real rush.

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    There are forks available now, but offset options are llimited. Next run is early August, so not that far away.

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    Changing travel on the mezzer works similar to the mattoc? I may have a 180 mezzer soon and will lower it to 170 mm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Changing travel on the mezzer works similar to the mattoc? I may have a 180 mezzer soon and will lower it to 170 mm.
    Yes. Same air system, same spacers to reduce travel.

    But I don't yet know what you get in the box.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes. Same air system, same spacers to reduce travel.

    But I don't yet know what you get in the box.
    I could try to use my mattoc spacers if they don't yet provide one.
    I won't get an original package, just the fork and mud guard

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    Mattoc spacer worked fine! I collected around 20 ml of oil from each leg, put in supergliss and now ready to go!
    No more threaded lowers, but you need to keep the shafts in place to close the nuts.

    Mattoc tool kit is everything you'll need.


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    Looks good.

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    awesome, can't wait until they're out in the wild in a low offset sometime 2020 or 2021.

  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Looks good.
    Looks great! Let's get a ride report!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    awesome, can't wait until they're out in the wild in a low offset sometime 2020 or 2021.
    I couln't care less about the offset joke. Imo just get the first you can find

  169. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Stonking rear shock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    Stonking rear shock.
    Actually it was a pain in the a$$ to setup. They gave me the wrong coil (i needed a 425 lbs and they installed a 450) and had to change 2 times the shim stack (for free, they admitted the wrong tune as well).
    Heavily damped, i mean very very harsh, very progressive and coupled with the warden progressive suspension i was using half travel. I took it to them 4-5 times, luckily i live 20 minutes away from the factory.
    The problem is that the external regulations have a very narrow range, so the shim stack must ideal or it won't work well.

    Now it's good.

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Actually it was a pain in the a$$ to setup. They gave me the wrong coil (i needed a 425 lbs and they installed a 450) and had to change 2 times the shim stack (for free, they admitted the wrong tune as well).
    Heavily damped, i mean very very harsh, very progressive and coupled with the warden progressive suspension i was using half travel. I took it to them 4-5 times, luckily i live 20 minutes away from the factory.
    The problem is that the external regulations have a very narrow range, so the shim stack must ideal or it won't work well.

    Now it's good.
    I had to send my EXT back for a retune when I got it too. Shimmed super firm and the firmer of the 2 springs was way out of usable range. Their US distributor reshimmed it for me and it’s been exceptional (except when the piston separated from the shaft on me). I got it for my slash but swapped it to my sb150 and it’s been a great performer on both.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Actually it was a pain in the a$$ to setup. They gave me the wrong coil (i needed a 425 lbs and they installed a 450) and had to change 2 times the shim stack (for free, they admitted the wrong tune as well).
    Heavily damped, i mean very very harsh, very progressive and coupled with the warden progressive suspension i was using half travel. I took it to them 4-5 times, luckily i live 20 minutes away from the factory.
    The problem is that the external regulations have a very narrow range, so the shim stack must ideal or it won't work well.

    Now it's good.
    Review :-)

  173. #173
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    Clips are similar to the Mastodon. Did you need that weird cut out cassette tool and cut down socket to change the travel setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Mattoc spacer worked fine! I collected around 20 ml of oil from each leg, put in supergliss and now ready to go!
    No more threaded lowers, but you need to keep the shafts in place to close the nuts.

    Mattoc tool kit is everything you'll need.

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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Looks good.
    That's nice.

    But have you ridden it in anger yet?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Clips are similar to the Mastodon. Did you need that weird cut out cassette tool and cut down socket to change the travel setting?
    Mattoc tool kit works fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That's nice.

    But have you ridden it in anger yet?
    Not really, i did some rocky descent but they were short. I find the mezzer to be amazing so far, even compared to my high flow piston mattoc.

    I will take it to the bike park soon!

  177. #177
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    Bikepark is the only real test

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Bikepark is the only real test
    If all you do is ride park.

    Some of us ride trails, climb, and do all the other stuff.

    What I'm looking for is the golden unicorn of myth and legend, farts fairy dust, ice cream rainbows from it's arse, good enough to smooth out the little hits, but still takes the big hits in stride, and of course keeps the wheel on the ground.
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  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That's nice.


    But have you ridden it in anger yet?
    Disappointed to see the air piston is only made from plastic instead of metal as the mastodons or Dorados air spring :-/

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Disappointed to see the air piston is only made from plastic instead of metal as the mastodons or Dorados air spring :-/
    Plastic works very well for air pistons. It doesn't need additional glide rings to prevent wearing the stanchions. It's also lighter.

    Every gram counts in this fork. They hit the 2kg mark while still being the stiffest.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  181. #181
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    I find it ironic that we want plastic bike frames but a plastic air piston is a no no!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I find it ironic that we want plastic bike frames but a plastic air piston is a no no!
    or that most of the products we use are made from "plastic".

    Of course there's a lot of different plastics, not just the type used to make tupperware ...

    I suspect they know what they are doing as that's what they do.

    Maybe Dougal can answer this question: How much of what we ride on an MTB is derived from moto and auto applications? I assume it's trickle down since our products are the least widespread and the least profitable compared to those other markets.

    And still no user review, WTF?!
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    auto suspension is ridiculously expensive. Penske, JRZ, Ohlins, AST, Moton, etc. that stuff is crazy at the high end.

    moto isn't bad. bike stuff, its really good for what it costs.

  184. #184
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    auto suspension is ridiculously expensive. Penske, JRZ, Ohlins, AST, Moton, etc. that stuff is crazy at the high end.

    moto isn't bad. bike stuff, its really good for what it costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post

    And still no user review, WTF?!
    Manitou probably doesn't want to pay Pinkbike et al to post a 'review' like everybody else does lol

  185. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post

    Manitou probably doesn't want to pay Pinkbike et al to post a 'review' like everybody else does lol
    Why? I'm pretty sure there's no better ROI than a good Pinkbike review.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    auto suspension is ridiculously expensive. Penske, JRZ, Ohlins, AST, Moton, etc. that stuff is crazy at the high end.

    moto isn't bad. bike stuff, its really good for what it costs.



    Manitou probably doesn't want to pay Pinkbike et al to post a 'review' like everybody else does lol
    Pretty sure there will be a PB review shortly.


  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Every gram counts in this fork.
    Such a bummer.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  188. #188
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    So far so good, this fork is awesome. I can compare it to a good number of competitors, it's the best fork i have used on a mtb. I discarded rockshox, fox36 fit4, i own a mattoc and a dvo diamond (i have 2 bikes).
    So smooth, low speed sensitivity is a lot better than the mattoc, for big hits it has a similar feeling to the mattoc, family feeling is a good word to describe it.
    To me it seems that it has a slighty lighter shim stack tune on compression, i'm using a lot of LSC at the moment and still it isn't harsh.
    HSC is set 1 from open.

    With both LSC and HSC full closed the fork still moves relatively free, the mattoc was very slow in that condition. This sort of confirm that it has a lighter shim stack.

    I'm using identical pressure to the mattoc, 60 psi main and 90 irt for my 80 kg. I actually found the Manitou suggested pressure to be too soft, they suggested 52/75 psi for 82 kg.

    Saturday i will do 6000+ metres of descents in the rough, i did the same park with the mattoc 2 weeks ago, can't wait.

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    auto suspension is ridiculously expensive. Penske, JRZ, Ohlins, AST, Moton, etc. that stuff is crazy at the high end.

    moto isn't bad. bike stuff, its really good for what it costs.
    You have it backwards, it's not the cost, it's what a certain user group generates in profits that drive technology, hence my thought that big dollar industries like moto and auto are probably trickle down to us pleebs on mountain bikes.
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  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    Maybe Dougal can answer this question: How much of what we ride on an MTB is derived from moto and auto applications? I assume it's trickle down since our products are the least widespread and the least profitable compared to those other markets.

    And still no user review, WTF?!
    Manitou's head Engineer (Ed) is ex Showa moto: Twenty Nine Inches Interview With Manitou's Tech Expert Ed Kwaterski

    The physics is all the same, but the results are all different. We have massively different live/dead weight and also big differences in body position and weight transfer.

    Low/mid range auto uses emulsion shocks, our rear shocks are closer in design and construction to race level automotive shocks.
    Upper end mass-market auto (like Koni and Bilstein) are still using dampers that are very simple in construction and don't have the manufacturing cost of the intricate MTB dampers.

    Moto is something I don't keep up with much. But I don't think they're ahead of us. They share the same issues with manufacturers pushing air to keep weight down and some customers wanting coil. Their rear shocks are pretty similar to a piggy back MTB shock.

    There is a huge difference in moto between road racing and offroad with regard to suspension requirements (body control vs bump control) due to the suspension speeds. There is some contention about companies bringing damper designs from tarmac racing to MTB and how suitable they are.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    anybody knows a2c of mezzer 27,5 and mattoc 2 27,5?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    You have it backwards, it's not the cost, it's what a certain user group generates in profits that drive technology, hence my thought that big dollar industries like moto and auto are probably trickle down to us pleebs on mountain bikes.
    According to Wikipedia who is never wrong btw reports that in 2016 Fox's mountain bike equipment sales accounted for 56% of the company's total revenue.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    anybody knows a2c of mezzer 27,5 and mattoc 2 27,5?
    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-mezzer.html
    Mezzer 27"
    140-180 mm travel
    110 x 15 mm boost axle
    Tapered steerer tube
    Bolt on mudguard fender
    Fits 2.8" tyre without fender, 2.6" with.
    Disc brake only (180+ mm post mount)
    44 mm Offset (37mm version coming)
    574mm Axle-Crown measurement (180mm)
    2000 g (4.4 lb)

    I've got Mattoc 2 here to measure. But I cannot find a tape-measure!
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    anybody knows a2c of mezzer 27,5 and mattoc 2 27,5?
    a2c on my Mattoc 2 Pro 27.5 is 555mm when set at 160mm travel.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    So far so good, this fork is awesome. I can compare it to a good number of competitors, it's the best fork i have used on a mtb. I discarded rockshox, fox36 fit4, i own a mattoc and a dvo diamond (i have 2 bikes).
    So smooth, low speed sensitivity is a lot better than the mattoc, for big hits it has a similar feeling to the mattoc, family feeling is a good word to describe it.
    To me it seems that it has a slighty lighter shim stack tune on compression, i'm using a lot of LSC at the moment and still it isn't harsh.
    HSC is set 1 from open.

    With both LSC and HSC full closed the fork still moves relatively free, the mattoc was very slow in that condition. This sort of confirm that it has a lighter shim stack.

    I'm using identical pressure to the mattoc, 60 psi main and 90 irt for my 80 kg. I actually found the Manitou suggested pressure to be too soft, they suggested 52/75 psi for 82 kg.

    Saturday i will do 6000+ metres of descents in the rough, i did the same park with the mattoc 2 weeks ago, can't wait.
    Please report back on strengths and weaknesses after today. Perhaps some track photographs, too :-) if there is some gnarly stuff

  196. #196
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    I was hoping mezzer will be lower, but its a2c is same as mattoc which looks like 180mm travel fork

  197. #197
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    If the Mezzer is lighter, stiffer and the same price as the Mattoc, I don't understand why Manitou still has the Mattoc in the lineup.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    If the Mezzer is lighter, stiffer and the same price as the Mattoc, I don't understand why Manitou still has the Mattoc in the lineup.
    A Mattoc boost 27.5 is 200g lighter at 1809g and is a fox 34 competitor. The Mezzer is 2000g in that form is a 36/ lyrik competitor.

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    So far so good, this fork is awesome. I can compare it to a good number of competitors, it's the best fork i have used on a mtb. I discarded rockshox, fox36 fit4, i own a mattoc and a dvo diamond (i have 2 bikes).
    So smooth, low speed sensitivity is a lot better than the mattoc, for big hits it has a similar feeling to the mattoc, family feeling is a good word to describe it.
    To me it seems that it has a slighty lighter shim stack tune on compression, i'm using a lot of LSC at the moment and still it isn't harsh.
    HSC is set 1 from open.

    With both LSC and HSC full closed the fork still moves relatively free, the mattoc was very slow in that condition. This sort of confirm that it has a lighter shim stack.

    I'm using identical pressure to the mattoc, 60 psi main and 90 irt for my 80 kg. I actually found the Manitou suggested pressure to be too soft, they suggested 52/75 psi for 82 kg.

    Saturday i will do 6000+ metres of descents in the rough, i did the same park with the mattoc 2 weeks ago, can't wait.
    And what does your 6000+ metres descent review bring to the table? Detailed reports please :-)

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    he didnt survive

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