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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Starting to think kazimer and (most of) the crew there are clowns with limited technical knowledge that kowtow to sram, spesh, and a few other big companies.

    not news to many, but sad.
    Recently read something on another forum (UK) that basically multiple people stated that product reviews from most any dirt rags this side of the pond were considered shiite and really not trusted. I found it somewhat funny as I had noticed most recently that lots of US or NA based "official" reviews seemed to very much pander to the big names. I get it, these companies play a huge role in revenue stream for these sites through advertising and other marketing "sponsorship" (as I see it) and thus you don't want to bite the hand that feeds.

    This is a similar to a conversation I had with a buddy about why people love Lyriks, Fox 36s, and the like. In my overly analytical mind, it really plays to nothing more than those are the things the pros are winning on and wearing. Most riders will see that their favorite pro just won on XYZ brand/model item and thus that must be the most amazing thing for biking! Then add that to the pandering that many sites, dirt rags, etc. do those those same brands and suddenly everyone has to have that product.

    Yet when people, some of them engineers, dismantle said new and totally awesome product only to find that the changes from last years model was only some paint, graphics, a couple of small inconsequential internal changes and a new team rider yet said new product is NEW AND IMPROVED and thus commands a premium but still never addresses many of the issues the previous version had and new version still has. Well those people are just haters. If I am curious about a product, first I do some review searching, try to pull out the information on those reviews that seems most common as potential issues. Then from there I look at the "used" market of said product line to see what is going on. If there are tons of the last years model being sold, that tends to tell me that there are issues people are not talking about and are trying to offload in hopes the "new and improved XYZ pro winning version" will have taken care of it.

    You see very few Manitou, MRP, DVO, SR Suntour products up for sale on the used market, especially their premium versions. Why is that? Is it because no one is riding them or is it because people are riding them but there are really no issues, they are happy and thus don't want to get rid of it.

    Always love the comparisons too, or arguments at least, where people say "Well if XYZ pro wasn't happy and winning with it. Do you really think they would be riding it???"

    My answer is always "YES. They are a sponsored rider. So, 1.) they get free products from that mfg., 2.) they are a sponsored rider so they CAN'T say anything bad about their sponsors products that's part of their contract and NDA, and 3.) they are a sponsored rider so their whole kit, aside from maybe the frame, is BRAND NEW ever race. Not to mention their suspension is rebuilt pretty much after EVERY RUN not to mention they have a team suspension pro there to help with their tuning."

    Call me cynical, but yeah that's how this kinda stuff works.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Always love the comparisons too, or arguments at least, where people say "Well if XYZ pro wasn't happy and winning with it. Do you really think they would be riding it???"

    My answer is always "YES. They are a sponsored rider. So, 1.) they get free products from that mfg., 2.) they are a sponsored rider so they CAN'T say anything bad about their sponsors products that's part of their contract and NDA, and 3.) they are a sponsored rider so their whole kit, aside from maybe the frame, is BRAND NEW ever race. Not to mention their suspension is rebuilt pretty much after EVERY RUN not to mention they have a team suspension pro there to help with their tuning."

    Call me cynical, but yeah that's how this kinda stuff works.
    Also, 4) The products which sponsored riders are using have little in common with the ones you can buy off the shelf. Let's look at Fox for instance, they accidentally admitted that they gimped their consumer forks with a stupid platform setting that actually does nothing outside of a parking lot test.
    https://www.bikemag.com/gear/compone...de-fox-rad-34/

    At the very least, I'd bet almost all those pro forks have custom shim stack tuning which we can't get as consumers, and many of them will also have custom damper pistons, air pistons, adjustment needles, and who knows what else.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugelick View Post
    I found a US distributor for Motorex Supergliss 68K.

    They only sell 5 liter jugs though.
    I don't need that much.
    Does anyone want to buy some from me if I do it?
    I'll bottle it up in 0.5 or 1 liters sizes and ship in the US.
    $34 for 1 liter, $24 for 0.5 liter shipping included should cover all of the costs.
    Odd, is this who you called? I’m certain he said he’d sell it by the liter...

    https://eurolineusa.com/category/motorex-products/

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    This is a similar to a conversation I had with a buddy about why people love Lyriks, Fox 36s, and the like.
    When I got my bike in 2014 I was really excited to ride the new Pike (OEM RC), but I struggled with it from day one. There is obviously a massive thread on here about that model fork, and I eventually gave up on it to get the Mattoc.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    My answer is always "YES. They are a sponsored rider. So, 1.) they get free products from that mfg., 2.) they are a sponsored rider so they CAN'T say anything bad about their sponsors products that's part of their contract and NDA, and 3.) they are a sponsored rider so their whole kit, aside from maybe the frame, is BRAND NEW ever race. Not to mention their suspension is rebuilt pretty much after EVERY RUN not to mention they have a team suspension pro there to help with their tuning."

    Call me cynical, but yeah that's how this kinda stuff works.
    Yeah I don't think anyone serious about buying something will take what sponsored riders use. As you've mentioned, it's often far from OEM and is opened up every race etc. I play a lot of golf, and it's funny as players are often superstitious, and the fact that most golf equipment doesn't really wear out*, some players have used exactly the same stuff for a long time. Even if they wear the manufacturer's shirt and hat. We don't really see that with bikes.
    If you had a Dorado that you won races on, is there any need to actually physically change it if you weren't required to? Sure bushings, seals etc require changing, but how long before there was a risk of actual catastrophic failure of a stanchion, crown or axle?
    We all like new stuff, but mountainbiking seems especially vulnerable to it.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    When I got my bike in 2014 I was really excited to ride the new Pike (OEM RC), but I struggled with it from day one. There is obviously a massive thread on here about that model fork, and I eventually gave up on it to get the Mattoc.



    Yeah I don't think anyone serious about buying something will take what sponsored riders use. As you've mentioned, it's often far from OEM and is opened up every race etc. I play a lot of golf, and it's funny as players are often superstitious, and the fact that most golf equipment doesn't really wear out*, some players have used exactly the same stuff for a long time. Even if they wear the manufacturer's shirt and hat. We don't really see that with bikes.
    If you had a Dorado that you won races on, is there any need to actually physically change it if you weren't required to? Sure bushings, seals etc require changing, but how long before there was a risk of actual catastrophic failure of a stanchion, crown or axle?
    We all like new stuff, but mountainbiking seems especially vulnerable to it.
    Come on. Conspiracy theories...

    I own a Mattoc, a 2016 Pike, and a 2018 Lyrik, and a 2012 Tower Pro. All bikes are or were being ridden on quite equal conditions - guess which forks worked flawlessly from the beginning (ok some oil in the lower legs before riding) and required only some greasing and changing oil?
    And which forks had bushing slop very soon and had to be torn down on a weekly base, and still didnt work as they should?
    Sure the old Pike RC is not as buttery smooth like the Mattoc. And the Lyrik is overdamped. But: they work.
    The Manitous almost always are not working in some way.
    They are good forks, but their potential is thrown away because of too many faults.

  6. #606
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    There is no conspiracy, manitou also pushed very hard on publicizing the mezzer on PB, so basically they are paying them as well.

    The review went bad for different causes: -Manitou ****ed up badly, loose bushings and i won't be surprised if that fork is bone dry too, their fault and they deserved it. Many customers mezzer are dry so that is the standard condition of the fork right out of the box. No excuses, naivety can't be forgiven.
    -The reviewer clearly has some issues understanding what's happening under those knobs, or how 2 psi can make a difference.

    I think it went like this

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    There is no conspiracy, manitou also pushed very hard on publicizing the mezzer on PB, so basically they are paying them as well.

    The review went bad for different causes: -Manitou ****ed up badly, loose bushings and i won't be surprised if that fork is bone dry too, their fault and they deserved it. Many customers mezzer are dry so that is the standard condition of the fork right out of the box. No excuses, naivety can't be forgiven.
    -The reviewer clearly has some issues understanding what's happening under those knobs, or how 2 psi can make a difference.

    I think it went like this
    I would tend to agree with this. Manitou should have known to make sure Pinkbike got a ringer. But honestly, I can't say it will mater. The Mattoc was the fork of the year and I don't think it helped sales. The Mcleod has sold well because of customer comments.
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  8. #608
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    The bushing slop was a concrete enough issue for the rest of the review to have some legitimacy. If it wasn't for that, it could easily have been written off as wrong setup or opinion, but one issue of that nature is enough for most folks to consider the rest a concrete fact, as silly as it is. The silence from Manitou on the subject isn't a good look, either, for current owners or future buyers.

    I don't think there is any conspiracy to promote Fox or RockShox products. It's likely just what the testers have the most experience with, so setting it up for them is intuitive and quick vs something completely new. The majority of the test bikes they ride will have one or the other, so they've likely spent months on those, compared to a few weeks at best on the Mezzer. There may be some subconscious bias, but I doubt they are worried about saying good things about the Mezzer because of Fox/RS (they've reviewed other forks highly in the past).

    Their suspension reviews never align with my own experiences. I found the GRIP2 firmly damped, bordering on overdamped, for most riders. I found the Helm very smooth, although firmly damped, but very similar to the GRIP2 in feel, yet they rip the Helm for being overdamped and praise the GRIP2. I found the Ribbon to be sticky, harsh, flexy, and overall terrible. I've not met anyone that rode the Trust fork and thought it anything but harsh and painful to ride. These are all direct contradictions to their reviews.

  9. #609
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    I read the article and all the comments - and returned to them numerous times to read the updates.

    It's very entertaining (in a dark way) to observe how some of the posters get so twisted out of shape over a review. Some people are simply not happy unless everyone else agrees with their opinion.

    I gave up brand loyalty long ago. If something doesn't work for me, I toss it and move on, regardless of what anyone else thinks about the product.

    I read lots of reviews but I certainly don't get upset if the reviewer does not land on the same page as me. They are entitled to their opinion, just as much as I am.

    All that said, I didn't find the review and the conclusions that were reached all that shocking (no pun intended).

    I also take a lot of things at this site with a grain of salt - including massive amounts of posting by the same individuals, whose livelihood is derived from the products they are touting. Frankly, I strongly suspect that there is a lot more bias at this site than there is at PB.
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  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I read the article and all the comments - and returned to them numerous times to read the updates.

    It's very entertaining (in a dark way) to observe how some of the posters get so twisted out of shape over a review. Some people are simply not happy unless everyone else agrees with their opinion.

    I gave up brand loyalty long ago. If something doesn't work for me, I toss it and move on, regardless of what anyone else thinks about the product.

    I read lots of reviews but I certainly don't get upset if the reviewer does not land on the same page as me. They are entitled to their opinion, just as much as I am.

    All that said, I didn't find the review all that shocking (no pun intended).

    I also take a lot of things at this site with a grain of salt - including massive amounts of posting by the same people, whose livelihood is derived from the products they are touting.
    Yeah, I have read plenty of glowing reviews of Fox forks on Pinkbike and found them to be complete garbage. So I take most thing with a grain of salt. Pinkbike is the Mountain Bike Action of the digital age. Same content. Same mentality.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  11. #611
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    I agree with this almost entirely. Ride and form your own opinion. If someone here or elsewhere disagrees ... OK!! They can have an opinion, too. Even if it's different than yours.

    I think PB's content is good and occasionally great. Same with Vital and NSMB. Some of you guys are like folks who b!tch that McDonald's is killing us all ... yet they eat there every single day.

    If you think PB is part of some conspiracy to sell certain MTB products at the expense of others, just stop reading the content. It's not hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I read the article and all the comments - and returned to them numerous times to read the updates.

    It's very entertaining (in a dark way) to observe how some of the posters get so twisted out of shape over a review. Some people are simply not happy unless everyone else agrees with their opinion.

    I gave up brand loyalty long ago. If something doesn't work for me, I toss it and move on, regardless of what anyone else thinks about the product.

    I read lots of reviews but I certainly don't get upset if the reviewer does not land on the same page as me. They are entitled to their opinion, just as much as I am.

    All that said, I didn't find the review and the conclusions that were reached all that shocking (no pun intended).

    I also take a lot of things at this site with a grain of salt - including massive amounts of posting by the same individuals, whose livelihood is derived from the products they are touting. Frankly, I strongly suspect that there is a lot more bias at this site than there is at PB.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  12. #612
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    For sure Pinkbike got defective Mezzer. Unfortuntely Im experienced in similar way. Funny thing is Manitou army which I'm also in I knew if I write something bad about this fork people will hang me here. Finger crossed for Manitou to get it solved asap. Im wondering what should pinkbike do. Just do not publish the truth? On the other side does Manitou deliver forks for tests or testers just buy it somewhere? Such a pity they didnt succeed at 100% with mezzer.

  13. #613
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    Got it tuned pretty nicely. 225lb rider, 150mm 29er fork

    from closed:
    main- 75
    irt- 110
    rebound- 4
    HSC- 3
    LSC- 5

    I haven't hit any proper big features yet, just singletrack. Might need to increase bottomout resistance for bike park stuff.

    New bike! First 100% new bike since i started riding.
    Manitou Mezzer-manitou.jpg
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  14. #614
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    We used to tear down brand new JAPANESE motocross bikes when we got them to make sure everytjimg was greased and torqued appropriately. Bike mfgs are forced to make shit even cheaper than that, and we're so cotton picking entitled and cant be fkd to do some TLC on a critical piece of equip before running it. Of course you should tear it down whem u get it.

    Would you go buy a firearm and go run it at the range out of the box?


    Also kazimer, thinking the 36 grip 2 is less harsh than the mezzer is on crack.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Starting to think kazimer and (most of) the crew there are clowns with limited technical knowledge that kowtow to sram, spesh, and a few other big companies.

    not news to many, but sad.
    Yeah, I hear Mike can't even ride a bike, hell, we all know that PinkBike members are waay dumber than MTBR members

    I think I'll just wait a bit until I get a chance to try this fork, my Smashpot Bomber works just fine.

    Oh, and FactoryMatt, you might want to check your ego at the door, you are waaay under water on your critiques of others, esp folks you don't know, and who are likely more "factory" than you
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  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    For sure Pinkbike got defective Mezzer. Unfortuntely Im experienced in similar way. Funny thing is Manitou army which I'm also in I knew if I write something bad about this fork people will hang me here. Finger crossed for Manitou to get it solved asap. Im wondering what should pinkbike do. Just do not publish the truth? On the other side does Manitou deliver forks for tests or testers just buy it somewhere? Such a pity they didnt succeed at 100% with mezzer.
    I'm biased, but will give my 2 cents(key word is my, I am in no way speaking for Manitou)

    Pink bike clearly got a bad fork. No excuses for this, its just what happened. Over the last few weeks, the bushing issue has come to Manitou's attention and is being worked out. I'm not going to speak on this at the moment, but it will be publicly addressed very soon. If you are the owner of a fork with a bushing issue, you will be taken care of.

    No body will flame someone who talks bad about Manitou. Not everyone likes the same thing, and the mezzer is not for everyone. Its can be a little tricky to set up because of how adjustable it is. Its understandable some people don't have good experiences at first, especially if they are not used to how a Manitou damper works.

    The issue I have with the review comes from a few different things. First, the reviewers contact with Manitou was almost non existent. I know what he wrote in the comments, but I also know he made no attempt at contacting the person who installed the fork for him to ask questions about the issues or for set up advice. Second, Manitou was not contacted prior to release of the review to ask for a statement on the issues he found. I'm not saying a reviewer should contact a company in every case prior to posting a review, but a little bit of contact prior to flaming a product would bring validation to a review. I know they have done this for other reviews, seems like common sense. Third, I think its pretty clear by the review that the tester did not spend much time attempting to find good settings. The bushing issue likely made it harder to find good settings, but he contradicts himself in multiple places about set up. Example being that the LSC adjustment does nothing, then says he ran it close to open to avoid harshness. Another being the assumption that more damping means harshness. Maybe true with some dampers and some situations, but Manitou dampers are designed like a Moto damper and do not spike like others. A lack of compression damping can cause harshness just as much as too much Lastly, the review is also pretty short for a review that supposedly took place over months. I have seen first ride articles with more detail and more information than this longer-term review. It really feels like he tossed it on, said it sucks, and went back the lyrik. Never really giving it a true chance.

  17. #617
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    Reading the PB review, the fork "developed" bushing slop, didn't come with it. Sounds like it was under lubed and the bushings are probably now worn? Those bushings usually have multiple materials in them with a fairly soft layer on the contact areas to help absorb contamination and reduce friction. Ran dry, I imagine it would kill this layer pretty quickly?

    I think it does speak to where the OEM market is really at though. MOST bikes don't come with the top end, highly adjustable versions of suspension because most riders won't put in the effort to fully sort it out. They come with the RC and RCT3 type stuff where there is far less to mess up on set up. Go back and watch review videos of the Fox 36 R2C2 versions and you’ll see many struggled to get those setup initially too. I imagine if Manitou wanted to get spec'd on OEM bikes, they'd need to release a version without the IRT and a simpler to adjust damper.

    Then everybody would buy the MC2 and IRT as upgrades, just like the people with OEM Lyrik and Fox 36s do...

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Reading the PB review, the fork "developed" bushing slop, didn't come with it. Sounds like it was under lubed and the bushings are probably now worn?.
    I dropped the lowers on mine and put fresh oil in before riding it, the slop developed after 2-3 rides. I had the proper quantity of oil in, so I doubt it's that.

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Reading the PB review, the fork "developed" bushing slop, didn't come with it. Sounds like it was under lubed and the bushings are probably now worn? Those bushings usually have multiple materials in them with a fairly soft layer on the contact areas to help absorb contamination and reduce friction. Ran dry, I imagine it would kill this layer pretty quickly?

    I think it does speak to where the OEM market is really at though. MOST bikes don't come with the top end, highly adjustable versions of suspension because most riders won't put in the effort to fully sort it out. They come with the RC and RCT3 type stuff where there is far less to mess up on set up. Go back and watch review videos of the Fox 36 R2C2 versions and you’ll see many struggled to get those setup initially too. I imagine if Manitou wanted to get spec'd on OEM bikes, they'd need to release a version without the IRT and a simpler to adjust damper.

    Then everybody would buy the MC2 and IRT as upgrades, just like the people with OEM Lyrik and Fox 36s do...
    There will be a comp version of the mezzer in the future, with the VTT damper and IVA to fit the hole you are speaking of.

  20. #620
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    Personally I reckon the complecxity of the IRT system is exagerated. People need to know:

    1 They need to keep it lubed
    2 They need to full it first before main (normally only important when air has been out completely).
    3 They need to get a ballpark ratio from the manucturer.

    It really ain't that much harder than a normal air spring. People just need to rember to adjust both if they want the ratio to be the same. I wouldn't want to miss it's advantages, but I can imagine there is a market for just a single positive chamber.

  21. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I'm biased, but will give my 2 cents(key word is my, I am in no way speaking for Manitou)


    The issue I have with the review comes from a few different things. First, the reviewers contact with Manitou was almost non existent. I know what he wrote in the comments, but I also know he made no attempt at contacting the person who installed the fork for him to ask questions about the issues or for set up advice. Second, Manitou was not contacted prior to release of the review to ask for a statement on the issues he found.
    honestly, i think they embarrassed themselves with Santa Cruz too, panning one of the new bikes without doing any shock tuning at all. and kazimer has show his journeyman status in the past. i wish they'd stay away from tech reviews and/or just become an exclusive e-bike site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I'm biased, but will give my 2 cents(key word is my, I am in no way speaking for Manitou)

    Pink bike clearly got a bad fork. No excuses for this, its just what happened. Over the last few weeks, the bushing issue has come to Manitou's attention and is being worked out. I'm not going to speak on this at the moment, but it will be publicly addressed very soon. If you are the owner of a fork with a bushing issue, you will be taken care of.

    No body will flame someone who talks bad about Manitou. Not everyone likes the same thing, and the mezzer is not for everyone. Its can be a little tricky to set up because of how adjustable it is. Its understandable some people don't have good experiences at first, especially if they are not used to how a Manitou damper works.

    The issue I have with the review comes from a few different things. First, the reviewers contact with Manitou was almost non existent. I know what he wrote in the comments, but I also know he made no attempt at contacting the person who installed the fork for him to ask questions about the issues or for set up advice. Second, Manitou was not contacted prior to release of the review to ask for a statement on the issues he found. I'm not saying a reviewer should contact a company in every case prior to posting a review, but a little bit of contact prior to flaming a product would bring validation to a review. I know they have done this for other reviews, seems like common sense. Third, I think its pretty clear by the review that the tester did not spend much time attempting to find good settings. The bushing issue likely made it harder to find good settings, but he contradicts himself in multiple places about set up. Example being that the LSC adjustment does nothing, then says he ran it close to open to avoid harshness. Another being the assumption that more damping means harshness. Maybe true with some dampers and some situations, but Manitou dampers are designed like a Moto damper and do not spike like others. A lack of compression damping can cause harshness just as much as too much Lastly, the review is also pretty short for a review that supposedly took place over months. I have seen first ride articles with more detail and more information than this longer-term review. It really feels like he tossed it on, said it sucks, and went back the lyrik. Never really giving it a true chance.
    He said that HSC knob does better than LSC at controlling low speed...that's something to remember for years.

    You are a tester of an important website, you MUST know what you are doing, i'm not pretending that they should be experts but they should know the basics.
    Like i said on the comments, we need to remember that these guys have the power to make people decide to buy a component or not, they must be prepared, i can't read that on a review.

    I'm not saying that the final opinion on the mezzer would have been different with some sort of knowledge, i still believe that's Manitou fault, you have a new fork you spent years on developing and you clearly don't check it properly before sending it to pinkbike? While other competitors will send the best fork ever produced from their factory. Uh...
    Unfortunately the Mezzer will pay for this, an awesome fork lacking adequate commercial support and smartness.

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    Was the fork reviewed by PB bought off the shelf or was it from Manitou itself?

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    I played a bit with the fork earlier and noticed that the bushing play appears to be occurring when the fork is compressed, as far down as 80-90% of compression. It's most noticeable when the fork is at full extension, but it definitely occurs most of the way down. That is a new development, previously it wouldn't knock past the first few mm of travel.

    I'm also having trouble getting the travel usage I expect out of the fork. I initially thought that it was air trapped in the lowers, because there were sections of trail where prior to ~1week ago, I'd easily get the fork to use 130-140mm of it's travel, now barely get above 100. I went back and tried to burp the lowers, but nothing came out. It still seems to track over small bumps fine, but when it comes to bigger impacts, it doesn't seem to be blowing off as well and square edges are a bit harsher. It's a somewhat recent development, because prior to a week ago or so, it was acting exactly as I would expect. I noticed it most on my ride yesterday, where I did a trail I am really familiar with and have become accustomed to how the fork feels, prior to that I don't know that I would have noticed it since I switched up my rides so much.

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    Kinda funny how the Mezzer is getting knocked for overly loose bushings and the MRP Ribbon got knocked for overly tight bushings.

    Then Rockshox and Fox get knocked for air and damper seals causing too much stiction as well.

    Meanwhile Cannondale is over there with the Lefty and its needle bearings getting ignored.

    A big travel Lefty, in carbon, with coil and a quality damper would be pretty rad. Might even be comparable in weight to bigger air forks. I'd ride it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Kinda funny how the Mezzer is getting knocked for overly loose bushings and the MRP Ribbon got knocked for overly tight bushings.

    Then Rockshox and Fox get knocked for air and damper seals causing too much stiction as well.

    Meanwhile Cannondale is over there with the Lefty and its needle bearings getting ignored.

    A big travel Lefty, in carbon, with coil and a quality damper would be pretty rad. Might even be comparable in weight to bigger air forks. I'd ride it.
    I never had issues with Lyrics, Pikes, Ribbon Coil, Bomber Z1, or Fox 36. My only complaint is crappy dampers. The Grip damper has been my fav, not a lot of expereince with Grip 2, but I rode a FIT4 and it flat out sucks (all or nothing).

    Stiction is an issue on most air forks and air shocks, but mostly I notice it when the fork is cold or I'm bouncing around in my garage, on the trail once warmed up it's not noticeable.

    I'm running a Smashpot Coil in my Bomber Z1 and it's pretty much stiction free, Grip damper works great for fine tuning compression on the fly. Honestly, the fork worked well as an air spring too, so there you go.

    EDIT: So ya know how we are so focused on trying to make telescoping forks be something "amazing", and so I'm thinking perhaps they can't really do what we want them to do, ie absorb a force coming from an angle.

    I'm no engineer, but it seems like the primary failure in telescoping forks is not going to be overcome by anything other than a different concept altogether.

    We seem to have come around to this thinking at the back end of the bike, looking at the axle path, but so far we have not been willing to embrace this same thinking at the front end of the bike.

    I played with a Trust fork at Outerbike and it really was a different sensation, it works like no fork I have ever tried. Is the Trust fork the end all and be all, probably not, but it's certainly a better mousetrap.

    I really feel like we are near the limits of what a telescoping fork can do, which makes discussions of stiction, damping, and loose/tight bushings sorta meaningless.
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  27. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Pinkbike is the Mountain Bike Action of the digital age. Same content. Same mentality.
    That's an exaggeration. MBA stands alone in it's ad driven hype.

    Sure hope Manitou gets the bugs worked out and there's another solid choice available, or one that's not based on hype (Fux!)

  28. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I never had issues with Lyrics, Pikes, Ribbon Coil, Bomber Z1, or Fox 36. My only complaint is crappy dampers. The Grip damper has been my fav, not a lot of expereince with Grip 2, but I rode a FIT4 and it flat out sucks (all or nothing).

    Stiction is an issue on most air forks and air shocks, but mostly I notice it when the fork is cold or I'm bouncing around in my garage, on the trail once warmed up it's not noticeable.

    I'm running a Smashpot Coil in my Bomber Z1 and it's pretty much stiction free, Grip damper works great for fine tuning compression on the fly. Honestly, the fork worked well as an air spring too, so there you go.

    EDIT: So ya know how we are so focused on trying to make telescoping forks be something "amazing", and so I'm thinking perhaps they can't really do what we want them to do, ie absorb a force coming from an angle.

    I'm no engineer, but it seems like the primary failure in telescoping forks is not going to be overcome by anything other than a different concept altogether.

    We seem to have come around to this thinking at the back end of the bike, looking at the axle path, but so far we have not been willing to embrace this same thinking at the front end of the bike.

    I played with a Trust fork at Outerbike and it really was a different sensation, it works like no fork I have ever tried. Is the Trust fork the end all and be all, probably not, but it's certainly a better mousetrap.

    I really feel like we are near the limits of what a telescoping fork can do, which makes discussions of stiction, damping, and loose/tight bushings sorta meaningless.
    telescopic forks would be absolutely fine with open bath damper/more space for lubrication in spring leg and most importantly with aluminium lowers instead of magnesium so they could be using sliding bushings instead of 2 fixed ones in each leg.Also, I´m not sure if you have noticed most enduro/dh bikes are getting slacker and slacker thus axle path of front wheel is getting closer and closer to high pivot bikes...

  29. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I guess Dougal's advice would've been lower the main chamber pressure back a bit again and close down the HSC/LSC more?
    The tester is about my weight, but running about 20psi more air pressure than me. That would work only for the most aggressive riding (park, DH) and will not work well on choppy trails.

    Running the LSC open and complaining about dive is underpants on head material. Especially comparing it to an RC2 Lyrik which has no usable LSC.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Mullen119 and Dougal

    What's your thoughts on the bushing play? I have two Mezzers, one at 160 and the other at 150 travel, and the slop is definitely more in the longer travel but it is in both. It doesn't seem to effect the operation on the fork on the trail but my concern is that if opens up further through use will it cause any excessive wear on any other part like the stanchions? Do I need to get the forks to a shop to get the bushing resized and do you think this is a warranty job?
    The issue I found in some Mattoc was an out of shape (by 0.05-0.1mm) pocket on one side (top right). The bushing goes in round and passes all the assembly and pre-sale checks, but when ridden hard the bushing conforms to the pocket and you get just enough fore-aft movement for a perceptible knock that wasn't there last time you saw the fork.

    There is no change or wear past that point. Just the initial seating and it's stable. If you have a bushing knock it will be present at the whole stroke, but it's easier to spot with certain tests. The permanent fix is to shim the bushing in the pocket and burnish it in place to round.

    I haven't encountered a Mezzer with loose bushings yet, but apparently others have. I don't know if it's a similare issue to some Mattocs or a simple batch casting issue or what.
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  30. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    I played with a Trust fork at Outerbike and it really was a different sensation, it works like no fork I have ever tried. Is the Trust fork the end all and be all, probably not, but it's certainly a better mousetrap.
    Dude, everything is a better mousetrap with you, then you ride it more, and you conclude "more of the same" dump it and try the next thing. Which is perfectly fine. But, to call it a better mousetrap without even owning it and riding it for a length of time seems premature.

    The Trust is super polarizing - those that demo them seem to be very "meh" about it. Those that are sponsored / some connection to the industry seem to have a much better "experience" with them.

    Agree with your points about stiction. I have a 2017 Pike that I can basically "get stuck" when pushing down because stiction is so bad. But it's becoming one of my favorite forks.

  31. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxfahrer View Post
    Come on. Conspiracy theories...

    I own a Mattoc, a 2016 Pike, and a 2018 Lyrik, and a 2012 Tower Pro. All bikes are or were being ridden on quite equal conditions - guess which forks worked flawlessly from the beginning (ok some oil in the lower legs before riding) and required only some greasing and changing oil?
    And which forks had bushing slop very soon and had to be torn down on a weekly base, and still didnt work as they should?
    Sure the old Pike RC is not as buttery smooth like the Mattoc. And the Lyrik is overdamped. But: they work.
    The Manitous almost always are not working in some way.
    They are good forks, but their potential is thrown away because of too many faults.
    What issues are you having with your Mattoc and Tower? Which one needed weekly teardowns and why?

    Sometimes, when problems keep recurring, you need to change the mechanic.
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  32. #632
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    Another thought about the Pinkbike article.

    He increased air pressure because it was riding too low. Does anyone else think the fork was compressed when he removed the pump? Thus locking it into a shorter travel setting?
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  33. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    is underpants on head material.

    This is THE BEST line in this thread.
    Dougal....I'm gonna have t-shirts printed with this!

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    I read the PB article. My opinion is I rec a fork direct and it was a early one. I had some complaints and actually had to send it in for repair before actually ridding it. When I got it back I actually took it apart and lubed all the O rings, seals and wipers, plus added the proper amount of oil bath. The only thing I havent done is go into or bleed the damper. My opinion wasnt great in the beginning. Maybe I shouldnt have had to go through all this because it should have arrived lie this. However I am totally happy with it, loving it actually. I can change travel in 20 minutes, lube all the seals and on the trail it is as solid as advertised. Totally stoked to have the Mezzer. My 2 cents
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  35. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    He said that HSC knob does better than LSC at controlling low speed...that's something to remember for years.

    You are a tester of an important website, you MUST know what you are doing, i'm not pretending that they should be experts but they should know the basics.
    Like i said on the comments, we need to remember that these guys have the power to make people decide to buy a component or not, they must be prepared, i can't read that on a review.

    I'm not saying that the final opinion on the mezzer would have been different with some sort of knowledge, i still believe that's Manitou fault, you have a new fork you spent years on developing and you clearly don't check it properly before sending it to pinkbike? While other competitors will send the best fork ever produced from their factory. Uh...
    Unfortunately the Mezzer will pay for this, an awesome fork lacking adequate commercial support and smartness.

    I agree with this. I checked and the fork was a off the self product. That is Manitou's mistake for sure. Not that I find it ok for any company to change a product and send a ringer to try to get positive publicity, but I truly believe that it happens more often than it doesn't. They should have checked it (though it was installed prior to knowledge of issues existing)

  36. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Another thought about the Pinkbike article.

    He increased air pressure because it was riding too low. Does anyone else think the fork was compressed when he removed the pump? Thus locking it into a shorter travel setting?
    Did not cross my mind until you just said it, but possible. I believe MK did the review on the mattoc pro 2, so you would think he had knowledge of how to set it up. But it would explain some things.


    I don't think MK is a bad guy or anything. I personally think his fork was a lemon, and he got lost in the settings trying to make it work. The bushing issue is being addressed, as is the dry seals and IRT (seals are not supposed to be greased,bath oil is supposed to be used according to skf).

    The fair thing in my opinion is to redo the review in the spring. His fork was not a good Example of what the Mezzer is capable of, as proven by the other reviews and users that rave about it. Maybe he will contact some people from the engineering department to help with the set up if he has issues.

  37. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The tester is about my weight, but running about 20psi more air pressure than me. That would work only for the most aggressive riding (park, DH) and will not work well on choppy trails.
    Kazimer lives in bellingham, and you just described their trails. Place is fulla jumps and bermed corners. Not really any chunk to speak of. That said, while i was there i ran my usual pressure and cranked up the compression.


    Your settings seem more weird to me than his do.
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  38. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I played a bit with the fork earlier and noticed that the bushing play appears to be occurring when the fork is compressed, as far down as 80-90% of compression. It's most noticeable when the fork is at full extension, but it definitely occurs most of the way down. That is a new development, previously it wouldn't knock past the first few mm of travel.

    I'm also having trouble getting the travel usage I expect out of the fork. I initially thought that it was air trapped in the lowers, because there were sections of trail where prior to ~1week ago, I'd easily get the fork to use 130-140mm of it's travel, now barely get above 100. I went back and tried to burp the lowers, but nothing came out. It still seems to track over small bumps fine, but when it comes to bigger impacts, it doesn't seem to be blowing off as well and square edges are a bit harsher. It's a somewhat recent development, because prior to a week ago or so, it was acting exactly as I would expect. I noticed it most on my ride yesterday, where I did a trail I am really familiar with and have become accustomed to how the fork feels, prior to that I don't know that I would have noticed it since I switched up my rides so much.
    Have you checked air pressures? Perhaps there is air migration occurring.

  39. #639
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    I'm still buying a Mezzer next Spring or Summer. I need Manitou to have fixed the issues by then.

  40. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Did not cross my mind until you just said it, but possible. I believe MK did the review on the mattoc pro 2, so you would think he had knowledge of how to set it up. But it would explain some things.


    I don't think MK is a bad guy or anything. I personally think his fork was a lemon, and he got lost in the settings trying to make it work. The bushing issue is being addressed, as is the dry seals and IRT (seals are not supposed to be greased,bath oil is supposed to be used according to skf).

    The fair thing in my opinion is to redo the review in the spring. His fork was not a good Example of what the Mezzer is capable of, as proven by the other reviews and users that rave about it. Maybe he will contact some people from the engineering department to help with the set up if he has issues.
    There are two issues with the fork. Lubrication and bushing. The IRT lubrication is frustrating as it's such an easy fix at assembly. The wiper seal lubrication only matters for the first few miles, after that you have a bath oil sheen on the legs and the wipers are good.

    The bushing issue I haven't seen yet on this fork but the Mezzers I have were a later batch than most US stock.

    We do know that Manitou will take care of all affected owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Kazimer lives in bellingham, and you just described their trails. Place is fulla jumps and bermed corners. Not really any chunk to speak of. That said, while i was there i ran my usual pressure and cranked up the compression.


    Your settings seem more weird to me than his do.
    What Mezzer settings do you ride and why do you think mine are weird?

    I've got equivalence to a roughly 35 lb/in coil spring with my air settings and use compression damping for stability and taking out bump energy. On my Mattoc I ran 40/80psi with closed LSC but the Mezzer has a bigger diameter air piston so lower pressures give the same forces.

    I ran the same Mattoc settings for chunky trails, park and everything. Parks aren't open for Mezzer testing yet, but I have some DH runs and trail rides.
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  41. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    What Mezzer settings do you ride and why do you think mine are weird?

    I've got equivalence to a roughly 35 lb/in coil spring with my air settings and use compression damping for stability and taking out bump energy. On my Mattoc I ran 40/80psi with closed LSC but the Mezzer has a bigger diameter air piston so lower pressures give the same forces.

    I ran the same Mattoc settings for chunky trails, park and everything. Parks aren't open for Mezzer testing yet, but I have some DH runs and trail rides.
    I posted my set up (so far, only have 5 rides on it...) here.

    I didn't intend to say you're doing it wrong, i have no idea. My last manitou fork was a 2006. I spent my first couple rides solo trying to replicate your setup at my weight, and it didn't work for me. I'd be interested in hearing your conjecture on what/why, but i'm not too worried about it.

    I really just commented because kazimer is riding galbraith, which imo is somewhat unusual terrain. I follow him on strava, we posted similar times when i visited last summer, and his setup made sense to me. (his lumping grip2 and lyrik didn't)
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  42. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    There are two issues with the fork. Lubrication and bushing. The IRT lubrication is frustrating as it's such an easy fix at assembly. The wiper seal lubrication only matters for the first few miles, after that you have a bath oil sheen on the legs and the wipers are good.

    The bushing issue I haven't seen yet on this fork but the Mezzers I have were a later batch than most US stock.

    We do know that Manitou will take care of all affected owners.
    .
    The IRT lube annoys me more than the main seal lube. Skf requests that grease not be used, which is a first for the factory. I can see how that mistake happens even though it should be very clear to lube them with bath oil first. The dry IRT shafts has been a little bit of a ongoing issue with the factory, which is more frustrating to me.

    I haven't come across bushing issues in person either, but its very clear that they exist.

  43. #643
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    Speaking of Galbraith set-up being different. I was running 20 psi more up there than at my local trails. 105 psi in a Lyrik for the hero dirt conditions that existed in Bellingham.

    At home, I dropped psi to 85 and lowered my tire air pressure to get it all to hook up in the summer marbles. Only point is, it's hard to judge someone else's setup based on where you ride.

  44. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The IRT lube annoys me more than the main seal lube. Skf requests that grease not be used, which is a first for the factory. I can see how that mistake happens even though it should be very clear to lube them with bath oil first. The dry IRT shafts has been a little bit of a ongoing issue with the factory, which is more frustrating to me.

    I haven't come across bushing issues in person either, but its very clear that they exist.
    I'm about to open my Mezzer to give it a check after the first few rides and move the travel spacers to the other side of the washer as I didn't notice the washer when I reduced travel and put the spacers on the wrong side of it.

    So when I reassemble the fork, should I wipe the grease out of the main seals that I put in and just wipe a bit of bath oil on them since SKF are not recommending greasing them?

    As the rest here, my air and IRT shafts were completely dry from the factory causing the sliding piston heads to be very draggy and the piston heads had a very small amount of grease on the quad seals. My first fork arrived from the factory with sloppy bushings on the right leg. There was clear play and knocking as soon as I installed it on the bike. The fork went straight back and got swapped for a new one. So far the bushings are good on its fork but I've only had a few rides.
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  45. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail-blazer View Post
    I'm about to open my Mezzer to give it a check after the first few rides and move the travel spacers to the other side of the washer as I didn't notice the washer when I reduced travel and put the spacers on the wrong side of it.

    So when I reassemble the fork, should I wipe the grease out of the main seals that I put in and just wipe a bit of bath oil on them since SKF are not recommending greasing them?

    As the rest here, my air and IRT shafts were completely dry from the factory causing the sliding piston heads to be very draggy and the piston heads had a very small amount of grease on the quad seals. My first fork arrived from the factory with sloppy bushings on the right leg. There was clear play and knocking as soon as I installed it on the bike. The fork went straight back and got swapped for a new one. So far the bushings are good on its fork but I've only had a few rides.
    Yes, wipe the grease out and lube them with bath oil. I don't know if grease will technically cause an issue, but skf is adamant that bath oil is used on these seals.

    I haven't noticed any main air shafts not being greased. I'll keep an eye out for it though.

  46. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Yes, wipe the grease out and lube them with bath oil. I don't know if grease will technically cause an issue, but skf is adamant that bath oil is used on these seals.

    I haven't noticed any main air shafts not being greased. I'll keep an eye out for it though.
    Thanks. Just completed the job. The washer was stuck against the bottom of the piston pretty hard, no wonder I didn't notice it.

    Also,BTW the Park Tool 5.2 cassette tool works fine without having to cut a slot into it if you push in the air piston to like David shows on his video. It's a good way of doing it as it prevents the possibility of accidentally marking the air spring shaft.
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  47. #647
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    Lol knock knock hello bushings.
    Hello dougal.


    I'll just stick with my lyrik.

  48. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Yes, wipe the grease out and lube them with bath oil. I don't know if grease will technically cause an issue, but skf is adamant that bath oil is used on these seals.

    I haven't noticed any main air shafts not being greased. I'll keep an eye out for it though.
    Curious - do you disassemble and check any new fork you deal with?

  49. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I haven't come across bushing issues in person either, but its very clear that they exist.
    IIRC you make your way down to NC every so often, if you are around anytime soon then I can show you mine.

    Any idea what the plan is from Manitou to address the issue?

  50. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    IIRC you make your way down to NC every so often, if you are around anytime soon then I can show you mine.

    Any idea what the plan is from Manitou to address the issue?
    I try to head to Brevard once or twice a year. Next chance would be spring time. Upcoming knee surgery will keep me down for a little bit. Plus winter is coming, so probably March or something.

    The cause of the issue was found, not sure on the time frame yet. Should be addressed very soon though. Anyone with issues will be taken care of.

  51. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by andymtb92 View Post
    Lol knock knock hello bushings.
    Hello dougal.


    I'll just stick with my lyrik.
    Made an account for this?

  52. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I try to head to Brevard once or twice a year. Next chance would be spring time. Upcoming knee surgery will keep me down for a little bit. Plus winter is coming, so probably March or something.

    The cause of the issue was found, not sure on the time frame yet. Should be addressed very soon though. Anyone with issues will be taken care of.
    Ah, should be resolved by then I'd hope!

    Good to know they found the cause. Hope surgery goes well, thanks for the info

  53. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    That's an exaggeration. MBA stands alone in it's ad driven hype.

    Sure hope Manitou gets the bugs worked out and there's another solid choice available, or one that's not based on hype (Fux!)
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/2018-f...irst-ride.html

    Enough said. MBA wrecking crew.
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  54. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The cause of the issue was found, not sure on the time frame yet. Should be addressed very soon though. Anyone with issues will be taken care of.
    Was it a tolerance issue, assembly or material issue? Also is it limited to a specific group of serial numbers?
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  55. #655
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    That would make sense since users don’t know that trick, I only know it from riding a Mastodon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Another thought about the Pinkbike article.

    He increased air pressure because it was riding too low. Does anyone else think the fork was compressed when he removed the pump? Thus locking it into a shorter travel setting?
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  56. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by andymtb92 View Post
    Lol knock knock hello bushings.
    Hello dougal.


    I'll just stick with my lyrik.
    Knock knock hello suspension tuners.
    My lyrik doesn't work like they say on the amazing review on the internet, can you help me? How much cash?

  57. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The tester is about my weight, but running about 20psi more air pressure than me. That would work only for the most aggressive riding (park, DH) and will not work well on choppy trails.

    Running the LSC open and complaining about dive is underpants on head material. Especially comparing it to an RC2 Lyrik which has no usable LSC.



    The issue I found in some Mattoc was an out of shape (by 0.05-0.1mm) pocket on one side (top right). The bushing goes in round and passes all the assembly and pre-sale checks, but when ridden hard the bushing conforms to the pocket and you get just enough fore-aft movement for a perceptible knock that wasn't there last time you saw the fork.

    There is no change or wear past that point. Just the initial seating and it's stable. If you have a bushing knock it will be present at the whole stroke, but it's easier to spot with certain tests. The permanent fix is to shim the bushing in the pocket and burnish it in place to round.

    I haven't encountered a Mezzer with loose bushings yet, but apparently others have. I don't know if it's a similare issue to some Mattocs or a simple batch casting issue or what.
    ...
    Last edited by robmac48; 1 Week Ago at 10:00 PM.

  58. #658
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    Fox’s or RockShox can’t be that great given all the companies that make a living modifying them. Some in fact make them work like a Mezzer.

  59. #659
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    I'll be keen to see NSMB's review of this fork.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  60. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail-blazer View Post
    Was it a tolerance issue, assembly or material issue? Also is it limited to a specific group of serial numbers?
    There will be an official statement coming soon. I will wait for that before discussing details.

  61. #661
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    Our heavy duty tester (200kg) is liking the Mezzer so far: https://www.instagram.com/p/B3jVCi6H5pW/
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  62. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I posted my set up (so far, only have 5 rides on it...) here.

    I didn't intend to say you're doing it wrong, i have no idea. My last manitou fork was a 2006. I spent my first couple rides solo trying to replicate your setup at my weight, and it didn't work for me. I'd be interested in hearing your conjecture on what/why, but i'm not too worried about it.

    I really just commented because kazimer is riding galbraith, which imo is somewhat unusual terrain. I follow him on strava, we posted similar times when i visited last summer, and his setup made sense to me. (his lumping grip2 and lyrik didn't)
    There's a lot of difference in our setups, besides weight you're on a hardtail which promotes a forward riding position because that's your only suspension. I ride FS which keeps my weight further back and suspension balance.

    Galbraith looks like my home trails but with loamier dirt and softer/more rounded rocks. I'm not convinced his terrain is an outlier for setup that changes the physics of mass, spring and damper tuning.

    https://www.trailforks.com/region/alexandra/photos/
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  63. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    There's a lot of difference in our setups, besides weight you're on a hardtail which promotes a forward riding position because that's your only suspension. I ride FS which keeps my weight further back and suspension balance.

    Galbraith looks like my home trails but with loamier dirt and softer/more rounded rocks. I'm not convinced his terrain is an outlier for setup that changes the physics of mass, spring and damper tuning.

    https://www.trailforks.com/region/alexandra/photos/
    Oh, totally!

    Galbraith really is pretty unique though. I've ridden most destinations in the western US, and galbraith is a real outlier. I hit more >10' doubles, bottomed my suspension in berms, and cased more jumps in 3 weeks riding there than i did in the previous 5 years. It's what you do there, and the trails are so well-built that it's totally fine.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  64. #664
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    Can I use the 20wt Fox Gold for the lowers?

  65. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Oh, totally!

    Galbraith really is pretty unique though. I've ridden most destinations in the western US, and galbraith is a real outlier. I hit more >10' doubles, bottomed my suspension in berms, and cased more jumps in 3 weeks riding there than i did in the previous 5 years. It's what you do there, and the trails are so well-built that it's totally fine.
    I'm not a jumper, this kiwi doesn't intentionally fly, but when I ride chairlift and park I keep the same settings. Haven't been there with the Mezzer yet, but with the Mattoc I had happiness from 60km/h fireroads to 30km/h chunk and 1.5m accidental drops to flat.

    My Mezzer air settings (35/55psi) are intending to replicate my Mattoc settings (40/80psi). There's nowhere I'd run 50% more air pressure without massively handicapping my riding.

    I suspect the reviewer isn't used to hydraulic bottom-out or good damping and gets scared of running into the end of the travel with only a few mm of rubber to protect his wrists.

    Quote Originally Posted by badIuck View Post
    Can I use the 20wt Fox Gold for the lowers?
    You can, but it's like a third or fourth best option. Get some Supergliss or Motorex 5W40.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  66. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Our heavy duty tester (200kg) is liking the Mezzer so far: https://www.instagram.com/p/B3jVCi6H5pW/
    At 200kg, or 441lbs, i would imagine that your tester, if anyone, could verify chassis stiffness. Or stiffness of any other component for that matter haha

  67. #667
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    Definitely sucks that MK got a lemon in the first place, but it happens when you are sending a true representation of your retail product, not something that has been hand picked and tampered with. The handling of the issue seemed a bit off to me based on reading between the lines and the style of writing.

    Again, qualitative and quantitative writing aren't all that hard. Given that specific examples are easily come across as most riders track their rides via any number of ride services, and if they don't they often know how hard and where they rode so they can make an educated guess at what the amount of miles/time put on said item, that is what really baffled me. Maybe I am overly analytical but I generally know how long a particular ride is going to be, regardless of me never having ridden the trails or not. I normally will ask the question of "How long we talking" for rides (ask Ben) and can make a general assumption on that the length of the ride, even if just given a ballpark of "we'll be out there for a good 4hrs." is all I get.

    The fact that he blatantly states that he rode it on his home trails while attempting to setup and then put in a park day, yeah I know the general mileage of all my normal rides as that is why they are my "home trails". If he can't quantify that number easily, then he really should not be writing "review" type postings, or at least his editor should be sending it back stating he wants numbers. Had he simply approached this as a "first impressions" type review and even stated that something further would come after some contact with Manitou about the issues. I would have been bummed at the outcome of the posting but that would have been it, I would have patiently waited for a "full" review to happen.

    Also, above someone mentioned about how they would teardown the Japanese race motos to ensure everything was greased, lubed, torqued properly and couldn't understand why most didn't have the same mentality. I get it and agree, but here is the thing, you apparently were doing this in an engineering/technician/mechanic schema that would lend to the fact that was YOUR JOB at the time. In which case, that is something that is completely acceptable. For the majority of riders out there, most are not home/garage mechanics, thus they do not have the space/time/tools to be able to do such things and thus don't do them themselves. Not to mention, FOX warranty states that if the product is worked on other than by an authorized FOX mechanic/technician it voids the warranty. This is/was cleared stated in their service guidelines for when I had a FOX CTD shock on my old trail bike. So who do you know, that just purchased a new bike, is going to potentially void their warranty on a part on the bike by opening it up just to check and make sure it was "done" properly. As my brother stated recently when we were talking bikes and I was expressing my distaste for my issues with my Code R brakes, "Yeah, I want to be able to ride my bike without having to babysit the components. That right there makes it bin worthy and I am happy to spend the money on something else that just works."

    Mind you this is all personal preference and conjecture. Hell, I have been loving my RS Super Deluxe coil and SRAM drivetrain. The Lyrik on put on the bike, and the Yari before it, meh not so much. The Lyrik is definitely better than it was after lots and lots of fiddling but still not my favorite and will get replaced next year with a Mezzer or a Durolux (haven't really decided, still leaning toward the Mezzer). But then again, who am I, nothing more than an internet poster.

  68. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    At 200kg, or 441lbs, i would imagine that your tester, if anyone, could verify chassis stiffness. Or stiffness of any other component for that matter haha
    I was thinking the exact same thing. That is one big man

  69. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    At 200kg, or 441lbs, i would imagine that your tester, if anyone, could verify chassis stiffness. Or stiffness of any other component for that matter haha
    Quote Originally Posted by kwapik View Post
    I was thinking the exact same thing. That is one big man
    Yes he is, about a foot taller than me. Great mechanic too so we get very good feedback: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bsh5ZZqFQjn/

    The Mattoc worked very well for him.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  70. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Here are some spring-rate equivalents (mid-stroke) for the Mezzer IRT system. I've created these based off charts from the Manitou engineering team. Primarily for to get equivalence to my spring-rate calculators for quick and easy setup.

    Spring rate calculators: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...te-calculators

    Equivalent spring-rate, Lower main pressure/upper IRT pressure.

    30lb/in = 30/45psi
    35lb/in = 35/55psi
    40lb/in = 40/80psi
    45lb/in = 50/90psi
    50lb/in = 60/100psi

    I've revised and softened my spring pressure after my initial (downhill shuttle) rides. I was running 45/80 and now at 40/80. It seems like a minor change but there's about 10% difference in spring force across the stroke.

    Their charts show the lower main pressure affects the entire stroke a lot more than I was expecting.
    I was browsing through this thread, must have missed this earlier. What travel setting are these air pressures for? 180/full extension?

  71. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I was browsing through this thread, must have missed this earlier. What travel setting are these air pressures for? 180/full extension?
    Calculated for 180mm. But I'm using them for 160mm.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  72. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    There will be an official statement coming soon. I will wait for that before discussing details.
    Any indication of how soon this statement will be? I have a bike trip in about 4 weeks and I'd like at least one set working like it should before I go.

    Dougal, are you aware of the fix? I might end up sending you the forks to sort out if this warranty fix doesn't present soon.

  73. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Any indication of how soon this statement will be? I have a bike trip in about 4 weeks and I'd like at least one set working like it should before I go.

    Dougal, are you aware of the fix? I might end up sending you the forks to sort out if this warranty fix doesn't present soon.
    I'm not sure. You can try starting a warranty claim now and hopefully you will be at the top of the list.

  74. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Any indication of how soon this statement will be? I have a bike trip in about 4 weeks and I'd like at least one set working like it should before I go.

    Dougal, are you aware of the fix? I might end up sending you the forks to sort out if this warranty fix doesn't present soon.
    I know what's going on but I'm going to let Hayes-Manitou come out with a statement when they're ready as they know more than I do.

    If you've got a loose bushing, there is no issue riding the forks and, you will be taken care of.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  75. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    You can, but it's like a third or fourth best option. Get some Supergliss or Motorex 5W40.
    Dougal....which Motorex 5W40 do you recommend?
    They have "Performance", "Boxxer", "4T", "4T Racing".....the list goes on....

  76. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Dougal....which Motorex 5W40 do you recommend?
    They have "Performance", "Boxxer", "4T", "4T Racing".....the list goes on....
    Power synt 4t 5w40

  77. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Power synt 4t 5w40
    Hey! You're not Dougal!
    Just kidding.....Thank you!
    Oddly....that is the cheapest of all the Motorex 5W40 variants at the shop! ( they really stick it to the Boxxer guys!)

  78. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Dougal....which Motorex 5W40 do you recommend?
    They have "Performance", "Boxxer", "4T", "4T Racing".....the list goes on....
    Power Synt 4T 5W40.

    Motorex make an astounding range of oils.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  79. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Power Synt 4T 5W40.

    Motorex make an astounding range of oils.
    You have to wonder how much difference is there between the $15 Power Synt and the $39 Boxer

  80. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I know what's going on but I'm going to let Hayes-Manitou come out with a statement when they're ready as they know more than I do.

    If you've got a loose bushing, there is no issue riding the forks and, you will be taken care of.
    Is there a chance with loose bushings that could bind under certain conditions?

    Doesn't happen all the time but it is happening more frequently during each ride when the fork feels like it has bottomed out when I don't believe it actually has....fork goes rock solid on a landing for example when previously it would just suck it up without a drama. Low speed shaft movements are ok, seems to be all high speed movements that are affected given the knocking over rooty repeated hits and landings.

    I'm confident of being looked after too, just want it fixed asap and move on but it's very off putting when riding. I've contacted Hayes already, waiting on a response.

  81. #681
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    Hi there, I'm being delivered a Mezzer soon. Reading the thread I saw that some forks may need proper lubrification before first use.

    As I didn't see any service manual on manitou's website yet, could someone sum up what should be done to make sure the fork is properly lubricated ?
    I guess first thing first would be soaking the dust seals with Power Synt 4T 5W40 ? Anything else ?

    If there's only that, could I inject the oil directly from the stanchions or is it recommended to drop the lowers, remove the seals and dip them in oil ?

  82. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by gui21st View Post
    Hi there, I'm being delivered a Mezzer soon. Reading the thread I saw that some forks may need proper lubrification before first use.

    As I didn't see any service manual on manitou's website yet, could someone sum up what should be done to make sure the fork is properly lubricated ?
    I guess first thing first would be soaking the dust seals with Power Synt 4T 5W40 ? Anything else ?

    If there's only that, could I inject the oil directly from the stanchions or is it recommended to drop the lowers, remove the seals and dip them in oil ?
    Lubing IRT has priority because it will probably be dry and will end in failure of the seals, you need a cassette tool and suspension grease.
    Lowers usually have correct oil volume but checking doesn't hurt.

  83. #683
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    Thanks ! which kind of suspension grease did you use ?

    Also, for the oil volume, I didn't see the Mezzer in the oil height diagram document. Are there any indications inside the lowers that specify the recommended volume ?

  84. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by gui21st View Post
    Thanks ! which kind of suspension grease did you use ?

    Also, for the oil volume, I didn't see the Mezzer in the oil height diagram document. Are there any indications inside the lowers that specify the recommended volume ?
    Slickoleum...

  85. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by gui21st View Post
    Thanks ! which kind of suspension grease did you use ?

    Also, for the oil volume, I didn't see the Mezzer in the oil height diagram document. Are there any indications inside the lowers that specify the recommended volume ?
    The oil height diagram is for their open bath dampers. The Mezzer has a sealed bladder. The lower legs just need semi-bath listed below, 15-20cc per leg.

  86. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Is there a chance with loose bushings that could bind under certain conditions?

    Doesn't happen all the time but it is happening more frequently during each ride when the fork feels like it has bottomed out when I don't believe it actually has....fork goes rock solid on a landing for example when previously it would just suck it up without a drama. Low speed shaft movements are ok, seems to be all high speed movements that are affected given the knocking over rooty repeated hits and landings.
    I'd like to know the answer to this, also.

    Mine has a minor amount of play, I've definitely seen worse, but it wasn't there when I first got the fork.

    I noticed on my first two rides (pre-bushing play) that the recommended settings were a bit on the soft side and the fork gave up travel easier than I would have liked, but that seems to have changed a bit and I'm using less travel than I was then. The fork also feels a slight bit harsher, which resulted in me going back to the recommended settings (which felt better this time, 73/105 for a 220ish lb rider) and reducing the IRT from 105 -> 100 to improve a bit of a harsh feeling. There are sections of the trail that I felt the fork tracked better and were less harsh early on, where it also used more travel than it is currently. These are mostly sections of trail that I'm real familiar with and ride frequently. I noted on my ride yesterday with 100psi in the IRT that the fork behaved a lot closer to what it did previously at 75/110.

    That said, it could be influenced by the fact my previous fork was a Helm, which is notoriously firmly damped. It's possible I've acclimated to the lighter tune on the Mezzer and what I'm trying to get in feel has shifted a bit, but the travel usage leads me to believe something else is going on. There are sections of trail where I would, early on, pretty consistently get it into HBO territory, but now don't come as close.

  87. #687
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    Perhaps pressure build up in the casting? Thus relieve it with small cable ties under the dust wipers

  88. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Perhaps pressure build up in the casting? Thus relieve it with small cable ties under the dust wipers
    That was my first thought, I tried that but nothing came out

  89. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Is there a chance with loose bushings that could bind under certain conditions?

    Doesn't happen all the time but it is happening more frequently during each ride when the fork feels like it has bottomed out when I don't believe it actually has....fork goes rock solid on a landing for example when previously it would just suck it up without a drama. Low speed shaft movements are ok, seems to be all high speed movements that are affected given the knocking over rooty repeated hits and landings.

    I'm confident of being looked after too, just want it fixed asap and move on but it's very off putting when riding. I've contacted Hayes already, waiting on a response.
    I've never experienced binding from loose bushings. I have had reports from other forks about binding due to the bushings and I think it was a bushing on the tight side somewhere else in the fork. After bushing resizing the customers were very happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by gui21st View Post
    Hi there, I'm being delivered a Mezzer soon. Reading the thread I saw that some forks may need proper lubrification before first use.

    As I didn't see any service manual on manitou's website yet, could someone sum up what should be done to make sure the fork is properly lubricated ?
    I guess first thing first would be soaking the dust seals with Power Synt 4T 5W40 ? Anything else ?

    If there's only that, could I inject the oil directly from the stanchions or is it recommended to drop the lowers, remove the seals and dip them in oil ?
    The most important bit is the IRT. Drop the air pressure, pull that out the top, grease the shaft and slide the piston up and down to pickup the grease. The bath oil has been fine in all the new Manitou's I've seen and works it's way up to the seals pretty quick when ridden. Pulling the lowers and wiping some bath oil into the wiper seals will make the fork feel better for the first hour or so riding.

    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Perhaps pressure build up in the casting? Thus relieve it with small cable ties under the dust wipers
    Please don't do that on any fork. It pushes debris down into the seals where it can wear the stanchions. If you have pressurised lowers on any fork then you need a fork rebuild and new air-seals.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  90. #690
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    I dropped my lowers tonight to replace the Fox gold bath oil with motorex powersynt and lube the dust seals with it.

    I noticed the rubber bumpers that sit in the bottom of the fork legs were rolling around loose. I repositioned them as best I could with the tapered side down but they don’t seem very secure.

    Do these thing actually seat in the fork legs or are they supposed to pop out that easily?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  91. #691
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    When I get my first ride on the mezzer should I rather go with a sag around 20 to 23 percent and only little damping or less air pressure and compensate the ride height with lsc hsc? I have an active riding style and weight 87 kilos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Bun View Post
    The oil height diagram is for their open bath dampers. The Mezzer has a sealed bladder. The lower legs just need semi-bath listed below, 15-20cc per leg.
    Oh, I didn't pay attention that it was not an open bath. Thanks for the clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heist30 View Post
    Slickoleum...
    I'll go with Sram butter then, I don't think Slickoleum deliver to EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The most important bit is the IRT. Drop the air pressure, pull that out the top, grease the shaft and slide the piston up and down to pickup the grease. The bath oil has been fine in all the new Manitou's I've seen and works it's way up to the seals pretty quick when ridden. Pulling the lowers and wiping some bath oil into the wiper seals will make the fork feel better for the first hour or so riding.
    .
    Thanks for the additional info !

  93. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    When I get my first ride on the mezzer should I rather go with a sag around 20 to 23 percent and only little damping or less air pressure and compensate the ride height with lsc hsc? I have an active riding style and weight 87 kilos.
    My experience so far says go with lower air pressure and adjust compression to get the support you are looking for.

  94. #694
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    Thus more compression damping and less rebound to keep it compliant?

  95. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Thus more compression damping and less rebound to keep it compliant?
    With lower air pressures you will likely need less rebound, so yes.


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  96. #696
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    What is the oil volume for each leg in the lowers? I think I remember seeing 30cc. Apologies as I am sure this has been mentioned before.

    Thanks

  97. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganderson View Post
    I dropped my lowers tonight to replace the Fox gold bath oil with motorex powersynt and lube the dust seals with it.

    I noticed the rubber bumpers that sit in the bottom of the fork legs were rolling around loose. I repositioned them as best I could with the tapered side down but they don’t seem very secure.

    Do these thing actually seat in the fork legs or are they supposed to pop out that easily?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I had the bumper in the left leg loose when I first opened the fork. I looked in the right leg with a torch to see which way up is was supposed to go then pushed it back down with a dowel. It's been fine since. Unfortunately, I don't remember which way up it went in though - sorry.
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  98. #698
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    Can anyone give a quck rundown on what should ideally be done before taking the fork on the first ride by any chance?
    • Greasing the IRT piston O-rings
    • Check lower oil levels (how much oil is supposed to be in the left and right leg?)
    • Anything else?


    Also is there anything that should be checked/serviced more regularly than usual?

    Would really appreciate some help as I can't seem to find ANY instructions whatsoever.

  99. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by badIuck View Post
    Can anyone give a quck rundown on what should ideally be done before taking the fork on the first ride by any chance?
    • Greasing the IRT piston O-rings
    • Check lower oil levels (how much oil is supposed to be in the left and right leg?)
    • Anything else?


    Also is there anything that should be checked/serviced more regularly than usual?

    Would really appreciate some help as I can't seem to find ANY instructions whatsoever.
    15cc of oil per leg, no grease on the main seal, just put oil on them.

    IRT shaft grease

  100. #700
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    RE: Oil vs Grease on main seals

    So for some reason SKF is recommending bath oil on the main seals instead of grease (slick honey).

    I went from dry from the factory, to slick honey. Got some Motorex semi bath in so I re did the seals and bath oil in the Motorex.

    Just switched back to slick honey on the seals to verify my findings.. the fork performs much worse with oil only on the seals, super noticeable vs properly slick honey’d.

    I’m not sure why this is being recommended. It could be a materials thing or perhaps it’s the grease viscosity vs the seal fit causing more grease to push past the seals. The reason is not a performance increase however so use oil only if you want a less sensitive fork IMO.


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    Still waiting on Hayes releasing this warranty fix.....still no response from Hayes to my emails...getting closer to my bike trip by the day!!

    Might have to send my forks to NZ for a little holiday at this rate!

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    I’ve heard this before with SKF but literally no one I know would only use oil or nothing, they clearly work better with grease

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    Not using grease seemed very odd to me, considering your trying to maintain lubrication on a vertical surface the top of a cylinder where splash oiling is going to be difficult. That seems like something that that the bushing manufacturer should be determining not the seal company?

  104. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganderson View Post
    I dropped my lowers tonight to replace the Fox gold bath oil with motorex powersynt and lube the dust seals with it.

    I noticed the rubber bumpers that sit in the bottom of the fork legs were rolling around loose. I repositioned them as best I could with the tapered side down but they don’t seem very secure.

    Do these thing actually seat in the fork legs or are they supposed to pop out that easily?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Manitou wants me to send my fork in for the loose bottom out bumpers:

    "The bottomout bumpers shouldn't be loose. It sounds like your fork will have to come in for warranty work. Would you like us to set up an RA?"

    So I guess this is a bigger issue than re-seating with a dowel?

  105. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Still waiting on Hayes releasing this warranty fix.....still no response from Hayes to my emails...getting closer to my bike trip by the day!!

    Might have to send my forks to NZ for a little holiday at this rate!
    Engineering fixes can take a while to get right. Just hold tight for the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Not using grease seemed very odd to me, considering your trying to maintain lubrication on a vertical surface the top of a cylinder where splash oiling is going to be difficult. That seems like something that that the bushing manufacturer should be determining not the seal company?
    It's odd to me too, but I'm not privy to why SKF said that. My best guess is they are scared of some grease ingredients not playing nicely with their seal compounds and the safest way is to say "no grease".

    We know oil gets up there because any seal failure quickly bleeds oil.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    I just got a reply from Hayes. Guess it's just a waiting game for their fix....several weeks away for the solution.

    I'm going to have to put a 51mm offset on a bike designed for a 42 or 44mm offset fork in the meantime for my bike trip.....something is likely to explode I know lol

  107. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It's odd to me too, but I'm not privy to why SKF said that. My best guess is they are scared of some grease ingredients not playing nicely with their seal compounds and the safest way is to say "no grease".
    "My fork died in three rides" - Every Mezzer customer

    "But did your seals die" - SKF



    Only joking...

  108. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganderson View Post
    Manitou wants me to send my fork in for the loose bottom out bumpers:

    "The bottomout bumpers shouldn't be loose. It sounds like your fork will have to come in for warranty work. Would you like us to set up an RA?"

    So I guess this is a bigger issue than re-seating with a dowel?
    That sucks. I wonder why they'd want it to go back for something seemingly so trivial? There was nothing to suggest there was anything special about the way the bumpers are seated. Unless something is out of spec size wise or they were supposed to be bonded in place. The one I reseated was still in place when I last opened the fork so I'm just going to leave it for now. If it starts coming away from the bottom again I'll decide what to do then.

    As for grease on the seals or not, I'm going to try with them just oiled and if the stiction is too much will go back to greasing them. It did notice that the seals don't seem to be as tight as on other forks I've had so maybe they think the grease will drag too much dirt into the seal.
    Pole Evolink 140

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    Quote Originally Posted by trail-blazer View Post
    That sucks. I wonder why they'd want it to go back for something seemingly so trivial? There was nothing to suggest there was anything special about the way the bumpers are seated. Unless something is out of spec size wise or they were supposed to be bonded in place. The one I reseated was still in place when I last opened the fork so I'm just going to leave it for now. If it starts coming away from the bottom again I'll decide what to do then.

    As for grease on the seals or not, I'm going to try with them just oiled and if the stiction is too much will go back to greasing them. It did notice that the seals don't seem to be as tight as on other forks I've had so maybe they think the grease will drag too much dirt into the seal.
    I'm not sure what the deal is with the bumpers but they're pretty insistent to get it back for repair even after I questioned if the fix was beyond the scope of a competent home mechanic. It's going back, I don't want to risk damaging the lowers if they feel it's serious enough to send in.

    Good luck with the oil on the seals. I got them about as wet as possible with the Motorex semi-bath and it wasn't even close. Even if the seals last half as long due to some materials interaction issue I'll take the performance of slick honey.

    I'll be curious to see how Manitou lubes from the factory if they actually test both methods.

  110. #710
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    Set up Help

    Hi Folks

    Looking for some setup help on my mezzer. Its on a 2019 stumpy evo 29 set at 160. I live in the white mountains in NH and my riding is STEEP and rough generally speaking with long descents, 2000' at a time more or less. Very similar to BC conditions, we are kinda like an east coast squamish, rocky, rooty, steep and steeper.

    Anyway, I'm coming off a fox 36 with a luftkappe, which I loved.

    This is how I have my mezzer set up, basically according to the sticker on the fork. Im 180 lbs kitted and ride aggressively, race enduro occasionally.

    Started at 52 main, IRT 78, 4 LSC clicks (From open) , none of High (open) and rebound right in the middle.

    My impressions: Fork is stiff and tracks amazing!! Sits very high in its travel and has a great midstroke support for blasting steeps. Feels really good at mid speed or low speed in the steep.

    When it gets rough and fast, or with high frequency I am getting too much feedback. I keep getting kicked off line. My thought is that the initial stroke is not supple enough, as this is what it feels like.

    I am also using full travel easily. Don't feel a bottom out, which is awesome and I am assuming that is the HBO circuit doing its job.
    The trail I've been testing on I typically did not come close to bottom with my fox, Id have at least an inch of safety travel left which I kinda like as sometimes I mess up and need that last inch.

    Anyway, my fox settings were:
    80psi, 3 clicks LSC low from open, zero clicks HSC, LSR & HSR right in the middle, no volume spacers with the luftkappe and the fork felt great.

    I'm looking for an initially more supple beginning stroke, as I am getting too much feedback and more arm pump on long runs. If this was the fox id subtract a few psi and add a spacer. What should my approach be with the mezzer? I need it more supple without sacrificing midstoke support for the steeps and am nervous about bottom out.

    Thanks in advance, awesome info in this thread!

  111. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganderson View Post
    I'm not sure what the deal is with the bumpers but they're pretty insistent to get it back for repair even after I questioned if the fix was beyond the scope of a competent home mechanic. It's going back, I don't want to risk damaging the lowers if they feel it's serious enough to send in.

    Good luck with the oil on the seals. I got them about as wet as possible with the Motorex semi-bath and it wasn't even close. Even if the seals last half as long due to some materials interaction issue I'll take the performance of slick honey.

    I'll be curious to see how Manitou lubes from the factory if they actually test both methods.
    Anything out of the ordinary they'll want it back to see how/why it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Hi Folks

    Looking for some setup help on my mezzer. Its on a 2019 stumpy evo 29 set at 160. I live in the white mountains in NH and my riding is STEEP and rough generally speaking with long descents, 2000' at a time more or less. Very similar to BC conditions, we are kinda like an east coast squamish, rocky, rooty, steep and steeper.

    Anyway, I'm coming off a fox 36 with a luftkappe, which I loved.

    This is how I have my mezzer set up, basically according to the sticker on the fork. Im 180 lbs kitted and ride aggressively, race enduro occasionally.

    Started at 52 main, IRT 78, 4 LSC clicks (From open) , none of High (open) and rebound right in the middle.

    My impressions: Fork is stiff and tracks amazing!! Sits very high in its travel and has a great midstroke support for blasting steeps. Feels really good at mid speed or low speed in the steep.

    When it gets rough and fast, or with high frequency I am getting too much feedback. I keep getting kicked off line. My thought is that the initial stroke is not supple enough, as this is what it feels like.

    I am also using full travel easily. Don't feel a bottom out, which is awesome and I am assuming that is the HBO circuit doing its job.
    The trail I've been testing on I typically did not come close to bottom with my fox, Id have at least an inch of safety travel left which I kinda like as sometimes I mess up and need that last inch.

    Anyway, my fox settings were:
    80psi, 3 clicks LSC low from open, zero clicks HSC, LSR & HSR right in the middle, no volume spacers with the luftkappe and the fork felt great.

    I'm looking for an initially more supple beginning stroke, as I am getting too much feedback and more arm pump on long runs. If this was the fox id subtract a few psi and add a spacer. What should my approach be with the mezzer? I need it more supple without sacrificing midstoke support for the steeps and am nervous about bottom out.

    Thanks in advance, awesome info in this thread!
    Go softer, a lot softer. Keep your IRT at about 80, drop main pressure to 30-35 and see how it rides. Beyond a car-park test.

    Basically let the spring get out the way and let damping do it's job.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  112. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Anything out of the ordinary they'll want it back to see how/why it happened.



    Go softer, a lot softer. Keep your IRT at about 80, drop main pressure to 30-35 and see how it rides. Beyond a car-park test.

    Basically let the spring get out the way and let damping do it's job.
    Wow, that’s soft!

    That low of a main pressure won’t cause the fork to dive or bottom to easy?
    Should I be adding damping past the 4 clicks of LSC that I’m currently running?

    Thanks Dougal!

  113. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Wow, that’s soft!

    That low of a main pressure won’t cause the fork to dive or bottom to easy?
    Should I be adding damping past the 4 clicks of LSC that I’m currently running?

    Thanks Dougal!
    It's a low pressure, but it's a big stanchion and a shorter chamber size (before IRT). So it's not directly comparable to other forks.

    The spring rate needs to be sufficient to keep the fork responding fast enough (frequency) and that's about all. The damping does the job of controlling dive and bottoming. You've got HBO as well to deal with bottom-out.

    It's taking a while to wean people off their usual F36 and Pike/Lyrik tuning methods of leaving damping dials open and relying heavily on air pressure.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  114. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Go softer, a lot softer. Keep your IRT at about 80, drop main pressure to 30-35 and see how it rides. Beyond a car-park test.

    Basically let the spring get out the way and let damping do it's job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It's a low pressure, but it's a big stanchion and a shorter chamber size (before IRT). So it's not directly comparable to other forks.

    The spring rate needs to be sufficient to keep the fork responding fast enough (frequency) and that's about all. The damping does the job of controlling dive and bottoming. You've got HBO as well to deal with bottom-out.

    It's taking a while to wean people off their usual F36 and Pike/Lyrik tuning methods of leaving damping dials open and relying heavily on air pressure.
    How can Manitou get their pressure range so different to what you recommend? You are recommending a pressure that doesn't even register on Manitou's chart for a 160 travel Mezzer...lowest is 40/70psi for a 54kg/120lb rider!

    Earlier you recommended starting at bodyweight for IRT and about 60% of that for the main pressure....now you are saying a main pressure under bodyweight and an IRT of approx 38% of that.

    Any wonder people can't get them set up easily lol

    I realise it's a very variable thing getting your own preferences dialled into suspension but surely the recommendations for air pressure can't vary so wildly for people at the same weight? +/- 15psi perhaps but 30..

  115. #715
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    The 37mm stanchion likely only brings about 13-15% more piston area then a 35mm stanchion. Should correlate to similar pressure difference too?

    180lb rider
    Manitou - 56psi/83psi
    Lyrik w/Runt - 68psi/100psi

    14% less on the Lyrik would be 59psi/87psi.

    Suggesting 30-35psi seems insanely low. Have to ask, what's the SAG at that point? 40%?

  116. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    How can Manitou get their pressure range so different to what you recommend? You are recommending a pressure that doesn't even register on Manitou's chart for a 160 travel Mezzer...lowest is 40/70psi for a 54kg/120lb rider!

    Earlier you recommended starting at bodyweight for IRT and about 60% of that for the main pressure....now you are saying a main pressure under bodyweight and an IRT of approx 38% of that.

    Any wonder people can't get them set up easily lol

    I realise it's a very variable thing getting your own preferences dialled into suspension but surely the recommendations for air pressure can't vary so wildly for people at the same weight? +/- 15psi perhaps but 30..
    I was puzzled by that too. He said this to me earlier when i bugged him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    There's a lot of difference in our setups, besides weight you're on a hardtail which promotes a forward riding position because that's your only suspension. I ride FS which keeps my weight further back and suspension balance.

    Galbraith looks like my home trails but with loamier dirt and softer/more rounded rocks. I'm not convinced his terrain is an outlier for setup that changes the physics of mass, spring and damper tuning.

    https://www.trailforks.com/region/alexandra/photos/
    For me, i try to ride 'over the front' on all my bikes; push the fork though and let the rear end follow. I rode long travel hardtails exclusively for my first 5 years in this sport, and you have to. The forks on my hardtails end up with a very similar tune to my FS bikes, assuming similar travel. When i had hardtail and FS bikes with old lyrik RC2DHs, i accidentally ran them identically.

    It sounded to me like dougal doesn't have my hardon for riding over the front, and may prefer a more neutral riding style like we used before long/low/slack became de-rigeur. If that's the case and he doesn't ride like a bucket of hammers rolling down a hill (like me), then his set up makes a ton of sense.

    So yeah, i thought it was a difference in setting up for different riding style. But i could be miles off.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  117. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    How can Manitou get their pressure range so different to what you recommend? You are recommending a pressure that doesn't even register on Manitou's chart for a 160 travel Mezzer...lowest is 40/70psi for a 54kg/120lb rider!

    Earlier you recommended starting at bodyweight for IRT and about 60% of that for the main pressure....now you are saying a main pressure under bodyweight and an IRT of approx 38% of that.

    Any wonder people can't get them set up easily lol

    I realise it's a very variable thing getting your own preferences dialled into suspension but surely the recommendations for air pressure can't vary so wildly for people at the same weight? +/- 15psi perhaps but 30..
    To be frank, I'm still working this out. After riding a Mattoc with IRT for several seasons I'm still experimenting with that one too.
    Last ride on the Mattoc was 35/85psi and I was very happy with it. I used to run 40/60, then 40/80.

    Next chance I get will be 30/90. Gotta find the limits before you can find the sweet spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    The 37mm stanchion likely only brings about 13-15% more piston area then a 35mm stanchion. Should correlate to similar pressure difference too?

    180lb rider
    Manitou - 56psi/83psi
    Lyrik w/Runt - 68psi/100psi

    14% less on the Lyrik would be 59psi/87psi.

    Suggesting 30-35psi seems insanely low. Have to ask, what's the SAG at that point? 40%?
    About 30-40mm sag in the attack position, less when seated, topped out when climbing. Air chamber volume matters hugely in air spring rates, piston area is only one factor.

    In the attack position I have like 30kg vertical on the fork which with a 65 degree head angle resolves to 27kg on the fork springs.

    It feels like people are measuring sag as the indicator ring travel when they get on and off.
    Sag only matters for geometry.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I was puzzled by that too. He said this to me earlier when i bugged him.

    For me, i try to ride 'over the front' on all my bikes; push the fork though and let the rear end follow. I rode long travel hardtails exclusively for my first 5 years in this sport, and you have to. The forks on my hardtails end up with a very similar tune to my FS bikes, assuming similar travel. When i had hardtail and FS bikes with old lyrik RC2DHs, i accidentally ran them identically.

    It sounded to me like dougal doesn't have my hardon for riding over the front, and may prefer a more neutral riding style like we used before long/low/slack became de-rigeur. If that's the case and he doesn't ride like a bucket of hammers rolling down a hill (like me), then his set up makes a ton of sense.

    So yeah, i thought it was a difference in setting up for different riding style. But i could be miles off.
    Yeah I don't ride hardtail over the front. I ride a long and slack full suspension.

    But I'm still riding spring rates and natural frequencies which are firmer/faster than road going sports cars.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  118. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Yeah I don't ride hardtail over the front. I ride a long and slack full suspension.
    As i said, with a forward riding style i don't think hardtail vs. full suspension makes any difference, at least for the spring. I've had the same model/travel fork on 2 bikes that had the ~same front end dimensions, and was alternating between them.

    Totally YMMV, which was the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    But I'm still riding spring rates and natural frequencies which are firmer/faster than road going sports cars.
    Road going sports car suspension rides the bumpstops when they corner or brake.
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  119. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    As i said, with a forward riding style i don't think hardtail vs. full suspension makes any difference, at least for the spring. I've had the same model/travel fork on 2 bikes that had the ~same front end dimensions, and was alternating between them.

    Totally YMMV, which was the point.



    Road going sports car suspension rides the bumpstops when they corner or brake.
    There's no-one riding hardtail in my riding groups any more.

    I've never been in any car that's hit the bump-stops cornering or braking. Sports car, not race car.
    We also have about 3x more suspension travel before hitting the bump-stops.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  120. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    There's no-one riding hardtail in my riding groups any more.

    I've never been in any car that's hit the bump-stops cornering or braking. Sports car, not race car.
    We also have about 3x more suspension travel before hitting the bump-stops.
    I give up.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  121. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I give up.
    I'm trying to understand your view and explain the differences. Kinda hard with responses like that.
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  122. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm trying to understand your view and explain the differences. Kinda hard with responses like that.
    Ok, ok. I've been reading your replies as intentionally obtuse.


    Ignoring cars and hardtails. And manitou. Not relevant.


    I thought it was possible that you were exploring much softer rates because you rode FS much more on the rear wheel (or centered over the BB) than someone like myself. The front end wasn't falling through the travel thanks to being able to run a really digressive compression. Whereas someone like me, who tries to carry as much weight as possible on the front of the bike, would need a bunch more spring. And probably more conventional damping behavior, but i haven't put much thought in to it.

    I don't know, was just throwing it out there as a possible explanation for the variance.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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    I ride in North California rock rooty terrain that is step, punchy ups and downs with some smooth tracks mixed in. I weigh 160 lbs and am running my fork at 160mm currently. I am running 35/45 and have been HSC at full neg and the LSC at one off full neg. The rebound is at three off of full neg. This was done to see if I could get to bounce on seated climbs and get into the HBO of the damper. It road super smooth, and didnt have a noticable amount of bouncing while I was seated and climbing. By the way it has about 30% sag. When standing it was alittle soft at about 40% sag and little bounce while sprinting. On the Down the HBO prevented it from buttoming out, and I was pretty sure today was the day I would do it. The pressure I went for was to make it more linear through the whole travel. But I continue to play with it, today I had unreal grip in every condition. Just my 2 cents.
    Transition Scout Carbon

  124. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Ok, ok. I've been reading your replies as intentionally obtuse.


    Ignoring cars and hardtails. And manitou. Not relevant.


    I thought it was possible that you were exploring much softer rates because you rode FS much more on the rear wheel (or centered over the BB) than someone like myself. The front end wasn't falling through the travel thanks to being able to run a really digressive compression. Whereas someone like me, who tries to carry as much weight as possible on the front of the bike, would need a bunch more spring. And probably more conventional damping behavior, but i haven't put much thought in to it.

    I don't know, was just throwing it out there as a possible explanation for the variance.
    Seated I'm 65% on the back wheel. In the attack position I'm 55% on the rear wheel. I have scaled several of my bike setups to check these numbers.

    What weight split do you run?

    Sag wise. I've got a 170mm Mattoc on right now with 35/85psi and it's 30-40mm sag seated and 90mm if I put my full weight on the bars.

    So riding down the steepest stuff with weight only on the front, it rides about halfway in.

    Why do you think spring-rates don't scale with weight?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  125. #725
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    My Highspeed adjuster has a little bit of play. The screw on the lsc ist already tightened..... Solution?

  126. #726
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    Can you explain the benefits of having 90mm sag? I will say that having 52% sag on a fork is for not understandable.

    First you will alter the geometry of the bike, when it dives so much in the front that you end up with a bike designed for 170mm having a ride height at 120mm, that normally should be around 140mm? 20mm difference is a lot.

    My Fox 36 is not even close, and I am probably running about 22% sag with a 75lb/in spring on my Smashpot. It is buttery smooth on the 170mm set up, and the initial feel is as super plush as my EXT Storia V3 custom made with negative spring for the Geometron G1. I can take up 2 meters drop with not harsh bottom out, still it manage to be plush.

    So if I was going to have a 60lb/spring or even softer on my 170mm Fox 36 to get the approx the as soft spring, the fork would be moving all over the place.

    And not to speak about pedal strikes, like it is a few already, with 170mm crank arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Seated I'm 65% on the back wheel. In the attack position I'm 55% on the rear wheel. I have scaled several of my bike setups to check these numbers.

    What weight split do you run?

    Sag wise. I've got a 170mm Mattoc on right now with 35/85psi and it's 30-40mm sag seated and 90mm if I put my full weight on the bars.

    So riding down the steepest stuff with weight only on the front, it rides about halfway in.

    Why do you think spring-rates don't scale with weight?

  127. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblefish2010 View Post
    Can you explain the benefits of having 90mm sag? I will say that having 52% sag on a fork is for not understandable.
    Suggest you go back and read what I wrote again. It doesn't have 90mm sag.

    It compresses 90mm when I am sitting on the handlebars. Sag in the attack position is 30-40mm. Those measurements were on my Mattoc at 35/85psi.

    My Mezzer at 35/55psi has 40mm sag with me in the attack position (less seated) and compresses 80mm when I am sitting on the handlebars.

    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    My Highspeed adjuster has a little bit of play. The screw on the lsc ist already tightened..... Solution?
    There is a locknut for the HSC adjuster, remove the lSC adjuster and you'll find it.
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  128. #728
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    30-40 mm sag with how much travel, 160mm?

  129. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    30-40 mm sag with how much travel, 160mm?
    170mm.

    40/170mm is 23%. I have no idea why everyone is getting so excited about running sag in the perfectly normal range!

    It's almost like IRT greatly reduces your first stage air chamber volume so lower pressures still give the usual spring-rates compared to conventional air springs.........
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  130. #730
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    What do you mean by 1 off full NEG? From fully closed or from full open compression?

  131. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganderson View Post
    I'm not sure what the deal is with the bumpers but they're pretty insistent to get it back for repair even after I questioned if the fix was beyond the scope of a competent home mechanic. It's going back, I don't want to risk damaging the lowers if they feel it's serious enough to send in.

    Good luck with the oil on the seals. I got them about as wet as possible with the Motorex semi-bath and it wasn't even close. Even if the seals last half as long due to some materials interaction issue I'll take the performance of slick honey.

    I'll be curious to see how Manitou lubes from the factory if they actually test both methods.
    I adjusted the travel on my brand new Mezzer today and the bumpers have also been rolling around in the lowers. Does anyone know if the tapered side is supposed to be top or bottom? My guess is top since otherwise the taper will just sit in the middle of the splines in the bottom of the lowers not providing anything regarding bottom out damping. Also the top of the taper is the same diameter as the uppers.

  132. #732
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    With this setup, how much compression from closed do you use? Just for an impression.
    And do you ride steep stuff with larger steps as well?

  133. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    With this setup, how much compression from closed do you use? Just for an impression.
    And do you ride steep stuff with larger steps as well?
    I'm running LSC mostly closed.

    Yes I ride steep stuff with step downs. That's why I run more compression damping than most. Bouncing down rock steps on a tight air spring with no useful damping isn't fun at all.

    I rode last night with 30/60psi in my Mezzer. But it was an XC loop on stoney ground.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  134. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm running LSC mostly closed.

    Yes I ride steep stuff with step downs. That's why I run more compression damping than most. Bouncing down rock steps on a tight air spring with no useful damping isn't fun at all.

    I rode last night with 30/60psi in my Mezzer. But it was an XC loop on stoney ground.

    Ok.
    And do you use hsc at all?

    Because many forks will become very harsh in the rough stuff with prestressed shims and often a reshim is the better solution.

  135. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Ok.
    And do you use hsc at all?

    Because many forks will become very harsh in the rough stuff with prestressed shims and often a reshim is the better solution.
    I don't use HSC. Because adding HSC with LSC closed (or almost closed) creates a platform effect which doesn't work nicely with the way I ride and the terrain I like to ride.

    Some XC type riders like platform effect. It was all the rage in 2005!

    Those on smoother terrain hitting harder (i.e. jump park) can run more HSC and less LSC without harshness and the lower support is usually made up in higher spring rates.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  136. #736
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    Negative air Volume

    Manitou Mezzer-img_3382.jpg

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is probably a dum question, but is it possible to deliberately increase the Neagative air volume by pushing on the bars with the pump attached?
    I am assuming that this would make the initial stroke more supple, as this is how the Luftkappe supposedly works..

    Toying with the idea of trying this as I am overforked by 10mm as is so losing 5mm of travel or so is no big deal.
    I am really digging this fork. Tried experimenting with different air pressures as Dougal suggested and settled around 50ish psi main and 92IRT. Still trying to get the off the top feel a bit more supple. Ill pull the fork apart and slick honey the seals next as I just went with oil in there.

    Thanks again

  137. #737
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    I think try it and see how it feels?

  138. #738
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    The only issue is how do you consistently set the height when trying to change the negative side volume. Hard to tune if you aren't consistent in your process.

  139. #739
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    more negative volume in mezzer is not needed

  140. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    The only issue is how do you consistently set the height when trying to change the negative side volume. Hard to tune if you aren't consistent in your process.
    Extend fork fully
    Measure off X distance and mark it with a piece of tape on the stanchion
    Attach pump and set pressure, then compress fork to the tape mark
    Remove pump

  141. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Extend fork fully
    Measure off X distance and mark it with a piece of tape on the stanchion
    Attach pump and set pressure, then compress fork to the tape mark
    Remove pump
    Exactly, that part is easy.
    Just wondering if there will be any performance difference with suppleness of the Mezzer. The Luftkappe made a huge difference in my 36.

  142. #742
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    Probably not, because the air spring just has been designed new and I think the engineers had their thoughts asManitou is not like Fox and wants to divide a new improvement over 4 years to be able to sell every year a new fork.
    My mezzer is very supple anyway. What is the problem with yours?

  143. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_3382.jpg 
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ID:	1290121

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_3382.jpg 
Views:	49 
Size:	137.9 KB 
ID:	1290121sti

    This is probably a dum question, but is it possible to deliberately increase the Neagative air volume by pushing on the bars with the pump attached?
    I am assuming that this would make the initial stroke more supple, as this is how the Luftkappe supposedly works..

    Toying with the idea of trying this as I am overforked by 10mm as is so losing 5mm of travel or so is no big deal.
    I am really digging this fork. Tried experimenting with different air pressures as Dougal suggested and settled around 50ish psi main and 92IRT. Still trying to get the off the top feel a bit more supple. Ill pull the fork apart and slick honey the seals next as I just went with oil in there.

    Thanks again
    Its not clear from the post you quoted but the fork will stay at the stroke you disconnect the pump (ie connect shock pump, push fork down 20mm, disconnect shock pump, fork stays compressed 20mm). So yes you adjust the ratio of + and - chambers, but you are also changing the travel. If you are "over forked" at 140mm of travel then you probably should have gone with a mattoc.

  144. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by shmity View Post
    Its not clear from the post you quoted but the fork will stay at the stroke you disconnect the pump (ie connect shock pump, push fork down 20mm, disconnect shock pump, fork stays compressed 20mm). So yes you adjust the ratio of + and - chambers, but you are also changing the travel. If you are "over forked" at 140mm of travel then you probably should have gone with a mattoc.
    That is all understood, and I have the Mezzer at 160 on a stumpy evo 29 so the HA is around 63. I could lose 5-8mm without effecting the geo in a negative way at all.

    All in all, I love how this fork feels. It's gotten better as its broken in as well, its just not quite as supple off the top as the Luftkappe'd 36, but beats it in almost every other category besides maybe high frequency chatter. I may try to overfill the neg air and report back, but the more I ride it the happier I am with its performance. Not going back to the 36 any time soon!

  145. #745
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    Is there a way to tell if the HBO is correctly functioning? I can only compare the Mezzer HBO to my Smashpot in another fork and the Smashpot is silent and fuss free when I hit bottom out whereas the Mezzer sounds like I'm pinging aluminium rims when I hit bottom out. Anyone know if this sound and function is normal?

  146. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    Is there a way to tell if the HBO is correctly functioning? I can only compare the Mezzer HBO to my Smashpot in another fork and the Smashpot is silent and fuss free when I hit bottom out whereas the Mezzer sounds like I'm pinging aluminium rims when I hit bottom out. Anyone know if this sound and function is normal?
    Are you pinging aluminium rims?

    Mine is quiet (not silent though) and smooth riding. I can certainly feel the engagement of it with the damper out on the bench.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  147. #747
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    No dangeroussounding noise here. Did not here anything at all and felt smooth onthose occasions with the o ring pushed up completely

  148. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Are you pinging aluminium rims?

    Mine is quiet (not silent though) and smooth riding. I can certainly feel the engagement of it with the damper out on the bench.
    I'm running carbon wheels and don't believe I'm hitting them. On the bench cycling the damper by hand the end of stroke is very obvious too.

  149. #749
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    still no news about bushing issues?

  150. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    still no news about bushing issues?
    I got an email from Hayes 3 weeks ago saying the solution was still several weeks away. Fingers crossed it's not too far away.

  151. #751
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    is it only that people mostly report just negative experiences or is the fork a bit flawed?

  152. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike_futurist View Post
    is it only that people mostly report just negative experiences or is the fork a bit flawed?
    If you have read the whole thread you wouldn´t ask this question. So give it a shot.

  153. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostbiker View Post
    If you have read the whole thread you wouldn´t ask this question. So give it a shot.
    And if you don’t want to waste your time sifting through this whole thread, the answer is the only unhappy folks are the ones with defective or improperly assembled forks.

    The Mezzer is awesome.

  154. #754
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    I'm surprised when any first run anything actually works.

    That sucks that manitou is having some growing pains on a brand new chassis with brand new everything.

    I'm a die-hard manitou fan, but I'm also realistic. RS had endless seal failures on first run pikes. Fox has had a myriad of spring issues on first runs (and seals, and dampers, and anodizing, and creaky crowns etc).

    If you want the latest and greatest, you're doing the QC and guinea pig work until the company fully sorts it.

    I still cant get over how good my mattoc is... but its the last run of the first version. Thing was perfect out of the box.

  155. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike_futurist View Post
    is it only that people mostly report just negative experiences or is the fork a bit flawed?
    The mezzer is awesome, they have a problem with some batches, it can happen in a new product.

  156. #756
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    Mine runs great.
    Still not settled on final setup, but am already very satisfied. Tried higher and much lower pressures than recommended by manitou or calculated via DOUGALs recommendations for 89 kilo in riding gear. Probably going to end higher with both pressures. But it is really smooth, thus it is easily possible to do so.
    I ride flowy as well as steep techy stuff with larger steps. With that setup i can cover everything. It feels definitively more secure to go with higher o
    Pressure in the main chamber and less lsc when going wild than lower than recommendet pressure and more lsc hsc. Just my 2 cents

  157. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike_futurist View Post
    is it only that people mostly report just negative experiences or is the fork a bit flawed?
    Mine has been excellent and has even had some runs under a 200kg rider to check everything was solid.

    The bushings are an issue for some, still not sure if this is a batch or size issue and Manitou haven't yet issued their fix. My 27" Mezzer bushings are good.

    Setup can be involved as these have more adjustment than any other fork and the adjusters actually work. I've got my trail riding setup sorted. Now to record that and turn it into a gravity setup and see how that differs.
    Last edited by Dougal; 6 Days Ago at 04:16 PM. Reason: typo
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  158. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I read the article and all the comments - and returned to them numerous times to read the updates.

    It's very entertaining (in a dark way) to observe how some of the posters get so twisted out of shape over a review. Some people are simply not happy unless everyone else agrees with their opinion.

    I gave up brand loyalty long ago. If something doesn't work for me, I toss it and move on, regardless of what anyone else thinks about the product.

    I read lots of reviews but I certainly don't get upset if the reviewer does not land on the same page as me. They are entitled to their opinion, just as much as I am.

    All that said, I didn't find the review and the conclusions that were reached all that shocking (no pun intended).

    I also take a lot of things at this site with a grain of salt - including massive amounts of posting by the same individuals, whose livelihood is derived from the products they are touting. Frankly, I strongly suspect that there is a lot more bias at this site than there is at PB.
    I just came across this one. It's kinda funny how people think my livelihood depends on selling Manitou product.

    My livelihood actually comes from tuning and servicing mass market Fox and Rockshox product.

    Yes I am Manitou's #1 fan and I'm completely open about that. I'm also a suspension engineer, test rider and have a direct line to Manitou engineers. So I've got a fair bit of info to write about.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  159. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Mine has been excellent and has even had some runs under a 200kg rider to check everything was solid.

    The bushings are an issue for some, still not sure if this is a batch or size issue and Manitou haven't yet issued their fix. My 27" Mezzer bushings are good.

    Setup can be involved as these have more adjustment than any other fork and the adjusters actually work. I've got my trail riding setup sorted. Now to record that and turn it into a gravity setup and see how that differs.
    Mine has also been excellent, with the only issues being the dry seals and IRT shaft.

    My understanding is that the bushing issue turned out to be combination of multiple issues with vendors, so the fix is taking a little longer than originally expected. I haven't asked for any updates or been very active on here lately for personal reasons. If I hear anything I can say publicly I will make sure to post it

  160. #760
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    I love mine as well, it had its problem early on but has really proven to be great.

    If could adjust the firmness of the HBO I would be 100% percent happy versus the 95% I am currently at.

    ANyone have any tricks with the HBO? Any?
    Transition Scout Carbon

  161. #761
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    I've got mine set to 160 but I have a new bike on the way and will be taking it up to 170. I have minor bushing slop but am not sure I'd want it to get much worse. Any idea if stretching it out another 10mm will have a big effect on the amount of play?

  162. #762
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    Do you want more or less hbo, curious.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  163. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Do you want more or less hbo, curious.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    I would like to have less HBO. Its my opinion that I would like to use the IRT versus what I have going on now.

    Thanks
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  164. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adodero View Post
    I've got mine set to 160 but I have a new bike on the way and will be taking it up to 170. I have minor bushing slop but am not sure I'd want it to get much worse. Any idea if stretching it out another 10mm will have a big effect on the amount of play?
    No problem at all. Stanchions are constant diameter outside so extending the fork makes no difference to bushing clearance.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  165. #765
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    Does anyone have firsthand experience of info if stock Mezzer works well for us Featherweights without having to resort to any additional upgrades or mods? I am 145 pounds (66 kg) and had to upgrade my current Pike RCT3 with Smashpot coil to make it work for me. I still have to run compression fully open, but adding Smashpot made huge difference, love it. I am now building up a 29er bike from scratch and torn to either buy the Mezzer or buy used Lyrik RC2 or used Fox 36 Grip2 and then drop in my Smashpot coil. Currently leaning towards used Fox 36 Grip2 plus my Smashpot, but not sure. Any thoughts or words of wisdom?

  166. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzywater View Post
    Does anyone have firsthand experience of info if stock Mezzer works well for us Featherweights without having to resort to any additional upgrades or mods? I am 145 pounds (66 kg) and had to upgrade my current Pike RCT3 with Smashpot coil to make it work for me. I still have to run compression fully open, but adding Smashpot made huge difference, love it. I am now building up a 29er bike from scratch and torn to either buy the Mezzer or buy used Lyrik RC2 or used Fox 36 Grip2 and then drop in my Smashpot coil. Currently leaning towards used Fox 36 Grip2 plus my Smashpot, but not sure. Any thoughts or words of wisdom?
    If you have found a good set up with the Smashpot and are happy with it then that is your answer, replicate it and continue being happy.

  167. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzywater View Post
    Does anyone have firsthand experience of info if stock Mezzer works well for us Featherweights without having to resort to any additional upgrades or mods? I am 145 pounds (66 kg) and had to upgrade my current Pike RCT3 with Smashpot coil to make it work for me. I still have to run compression fully open, but adding Smashpot made huge difference, love it. I am now building up a 29er bike from scratch and torn to either buy the Mezzer or buy used Lyrik RC2 or used Fox 36 Grip2 and then drop in my Smashpot coil. Currently leaning towards used Fox 36 Grip2 plus my Smashpot, but not sure. Any thoughts or words of wisdom?
    66kg is featherweight? I'm 70kg and absolutely stoked with it. No upgrades or mods. But you have a ridiculous number of tuning combinations.

    What rate coil do you have in the smashpot?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  168. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac48 View Post
    If you have found a good set up with the Smashpot and are happy with it then that is your answer, replicate it and continue being happy.
    Fair enough, I should have provided more context. Smashpot is in the Pike on my 27.5 bike, but I am building up a new 29er bike, so will need new fork for that one. I am very happy on the spring side of my Pike/Smashpot combo, but compression damping on the Pike not so much. I would like to run more LSC for more overall stability and less brake dive, but when I use LSC on the Pike, it doesn't do much in terms of less brake dive and the ride gets a lot more harsh over the entire travel range, so I run LSC fully open. The saving grace is the HBO of the Smashpot, which works brilliantly, as it alllows me to run LSC fully open, but prevents bottom out for bigger drops or jumps.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    66kg is featherweight? I'm 70kg and absolutely stoked with it. No upgrades or mods. But you have a ridiculous number of tuning combinations.

    What rate coil do you have in the smashpot?
    I have 35 and 40 rated coil. Currently using the 35 in my 160mm fork with 8 clicks of HBO from fully closed, but may use the 40 coil in 150mm fork for my new 29er...unless I get the Mezzer.

    Featherweight...was using a reference to combat sports. In MMA, the upper weight limit for Featherweight division is 145 pounds.

  169. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzywater View Post
    Fair enough, I should have provided more context. Smashpot is in the Pike on my 27.5 bike, but I am building up a new 29er bike, so will need new fork for that one. I am very happy on the spring side of my Pike/Smashpot combo, but compression damping on the Pike not so much. I would like to run more LSC for more overall stability and less brake dive, but when I use LSC on the Pike, it doesn't do much in terms of less brake dive and the ride gets a lot more harsh over the entire travel range, so I run LSC fully open. The saving grace is the HBO of the Smashpot, which works brilliantly, as it alllows me to run LSC fully open, but prevents bottom out for bigger drops or jumps.

    I have 35 and 40 rated coil. Currently using the 35 in my 160mm fork with 8 clicks of HBO from fully closed, but may use the 40 coil in 150mm fork for my new 29er...unless I get the Mezzer.

    Featherweight...was using a reference to combat sports. In MMA, the upper weight limit for Featherweight division is 145 pounds.
    Better get in the sauna. 66kg is 145.5lb!

    35 lb/in is your correct spring rate for normal riding. 40lb/in would work for the more energetic and gravity driven side. I'm running a Mezzer at 35/55psi (I think) at the moment and can run the range of LSC depending on what I'm doing.

    The Mezzer has a completely different ride to all of the Charger dampers. It has a lot more control (no wallow) and acheives that without harshness.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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