Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide- Mtbr.com
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    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide

    This thread will teach end users how to shim tune a Manitou Mcleod rear shock.

    Lets start with the basic information

    McLeod shock bleed video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vmNyZC8qTo

    McLeod Full service videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vmNyZC8qTo

    Stock oil is Maxima 5wt which is [email protected] Stick in the 14-16cst range if you use other oils.

    You can buy shims here: Revalving Shims

    You can buy the IFP tool here:


    [https://hayesbicycle.com/collections...p-service-tool

    I'm not going to spend anytime on the rebuild process, the videos are clear on what to do. Only the bleed video is needed to change shim stacks, but the full rebuild videos give excellent insight into how the shock works and are worth the long watch.

    Now on to the good stuff. There are 2 separate compression shim stacks in the McLeod and no low speed needle circuit. You read that correctly, the McLeod compression damper has no orifice/needle circuit. Its all shims. There is a 10mm ID shim stack and a 8mm ID shim stack. Generally speaking, you will only tune the 8mm shim stack and leave the 10mm stack alone, but we will dig into both.

    10mm stack:


    The the 10mm stack is the stack you can see when you pull the damper out of the shock body, like in this pic

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-piston-.jpg

    This is what your IPA lever adjusts. When you run the compression damping full open, the shims rest on the pistons lip with no preload or possible a very small amount of float. How much preload or float you have in the open position is based on the eyelet/damper shaft adjustment. You can see how to adjust this in the above videos, but it mostly should be left alone unless you are doing a full service.

    The stock 10mm stacks differ depending on the year of the shock, but the overall damping characteristics have not changed much over the years. Still a pretty firm lock out in when fully closed and a very active feel when fully open. So why change this stack? In reality, there is very little reason to, its pretty dialed and is not really addressed in the upcoming guide. Changing it changes the range of the adjuster, but not the main damping characteristics which are controlled by the 8mm stack. If you dont want a firm lock out, or want to make the difference between the 4 clicks of adjustment closer for fine tuning, then you would lighten the 10mm stack to change the range that the adjuster gives you.

    The most current 10mm stack is the following
    Damper shaft
    10x14x.1 (2 shims)
    10x 20x.2 (3 shims)

    The best way to adjust this stack is to replace shims with different diameters. For example, If you want a smaller adjustment range, take a 20x.2 out and add (2) 14x.1's at the top of the stack. This guarantees you keep the correct spacing and relative stack thickness which is VERY important. There is no reason to use diameters other than 14mm and 20mm, only number of shims( and thickness of the 20mm shims) matter in this case. 20mm shims for to change damping, 14mm for spacers/clamp shims.

    8mm compression stack:

    The 8mm compression stack is where the main damping happens. The newest stock stack is as follows:

    8x11x.1 (functions as a clamp shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x14x.1 (gap shim)

    First thing to note is that the overall stack stiffness is .3mm thick. You want to keep this to a max of .4mm thick or the IPA adjuster may have a hard time reaching its 4th click.

    Lets start with the gap shim. Unlike most shim stacks where you change shim thickness to change damping characteristics, in this case, you change shim diameter. We are essentially controlling a small amount of free bleed by not fully covering the compression ports with the face shim. A 16mm diameter shim fully covers the the ports, a 12mm doesnt cover them at all.

    This Dyno graph shows how increasing the gap shim diameter changes the damping curve:

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-gap-shim.png

    On the trail, gap shim size mostly relates to low and mid speed damping (though it affects the whole curve). If you want more low speed control from your stack, you would increase the gap shim diameter. If you want less low speed damping, you would decrease diameter to allow more bleed.

    Next we have the velocity shim. This shim tends to control the mid to high speed characteristics. You can change the diameter from a 16 down to a 15 which allows for more free bleed at the lowest shaft speeds. Most riders tend to like the 16mm for more support though. If you add thickness to the stack, this is where you would do it. Adding a second .1mm shim adds mid to high speed damping if desired.

    Last is the 8mm stack clamp shim. (its not really a clamp shim as the 10mm stack sits directly on top of it, but if functions similarly as well as creating a gap for the 8mm stack to work independently of the 10mm stack). Clamp shims change the slope of the damping curve by changing the stacks pivot point. You do this by changing the diameter of the shim which mostly changes mid to high speed characteristics in relationship to the low speed characteristics. Buying shims online can limit what you can do here as only 10 and 11mm diameters are available.

    Pistons:

    There are two pistons available. A red piston (stock in most cases) and a yellow piston that has a small free bleed that allows a very small amount of oil to pass on both the rebound and compression stroke. This allows for a better response when transitioning between the compression and rebound strokes.

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-bleed-pis.png


    Rebound Stack

    The rebound stack tuning is like a normal shim stack for tuning. Depending on the year of your shock, you may have a 16x.2 paired with a 11mm clamp shim, or the most current stack of

    8x15x.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x.2

    This stack is very good on most frames and is a great place to start if you have a older stack you are not happy with.

    If you open up you shock and find its using a 16mm diameter rebound shim, switch it to a 15mm shim as the 16mm shims slightly cover the compression ports. This was by design originally, but we have since found that the 15mm rebound shims not covering the ports works better.

    Lastly, you have the rebound check valve. Leave this stack alone, its only purpose is prevent back flow through the rebound orifice on the compression stroke.

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-op-view.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-lsr-check.jpg

    I will update this thread with more information in the upcoming weeks with some different stack combinations and the dyno info for them, as well as some more detailed pictures of the damper. I dont have it readily available currently.

    A few other things to note. Manitou has clamp shims of 10.3, 10.5, 10.7 and 11.3mm in diameter. You can not get these elsewhere to my knowledge. If you ask them nicely, they may be willing to send some out if you find you need them. They are used to change the rebound damping slope, not for use on the 8mm compression stack. If you ask really nice, they may be willing to send you a yellow bleed piston as well (make sure you have a red piston before you ask).
    [email protected]
    Last edited by mullen119; 03-26-2020 at 12:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    I was able to find a dyno graph for the stock tune for the most recent shocks

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-stock-stack.png

    There will be a bunch of compression and rebound stack info like this in the future.

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    Cool write up, looks like an interesting shock design. Lots of flexibility!

  4. #4
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    For almost the last two years I was running 6x 8x15x0.1mm rebound shims. My notes say I could go even softer but I don't think I ever did and I don't recall if I ran the numbers on it. I've been riding a coil for the last 6 months or so.

    I found a big improvement in high speed response with 15mm instead of 16mm. I also found a higher VI oil and higher IFP pressure was needed for harder use.

    Because these shocks only have a small oil volume they heat and cool rapidly. Which can be felt with the rebound speed changing as the oil thins out with heat and thickens again on cooling.
    I've been running a 405 VI oil which fixed that for my riding.

    I also have in my notes a 15mm dual stage rebound stack. Did you persist with that?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    For almost the last two years I was running 6x 8x15x0.1mm rebound shims. My notes say I could go even softer but I don't think I ever did and I don't recall if I ran the numbers on it. I've been riding a coil for the last 6 months or so.

    I found a big improvement in high speed response with 15mm instead of 16mm. I also found a higher VI oil and higher IFP pressure was needed for harder use.

    Because these shocks only have a small oil volume they heat and cool rapidly. Which can be felt with the rebound speed changing as the oil thins out with heat and thickens again on cooling.
    I've been running a 405 VI oil which fixed that for my riding.

    I also have in my notes a 15mm dual stage rebound stack. Did you persist with that?
    Locally, we have a lot of chatter and some medium sized chunk. The bigger chunk is there, but its in small spurts spread out. I dont think I get the peak temps that others do. I do have a few higher VI oils , but havent tried them in the McLeod yet. I will have to test that in the future.

    We did do a lot of testing with 2 stage rebound stacks. A few people really liked them. Most seemed to find they lacked mid speed damping (inferred from reports). We then switched back to single stage.

    I actually have some dyno info for one of the dual stage stacks shown with what is now the current production stack(labeled Mullen stack because it was before it went into production shocks)

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-0.png

    We did testing on softer stacks as well. They tend to pair well with the king cans. Clamp shim seems to be the best changes we could make when fine tuning shim stacks. Thats why we have such small changes in clamp shim diameters.

  6. #6
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    Dyno graphs coming in the next few days, as well as a few other nice pieces of info for comparison info. Just need to do a little editing.

    If there is any specific information people are looking for, let me know.

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    Thank you for using dyno graphs in Newtons! Are the compression graphs a bit fuzzy or is it just my phone?

    So does the velocity shim not fully seal to the piston either? And does the gap shim flex at all? Not that there seems much room to change thickness there

    I like the gap shim concept, seems like the ideal way to gain control of the slope in dished pistons!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Thank you for using dyno graphs in Newtons! Are the compression graphs a bit fuzzy or is it just my phone?

    So does the velocity shim not fully seal to the piston either? And does the gap shim flex at all? Not that there seems much room to change thickness there

    I like the gap shim concept, seems like the ideal way to gain control of the slope in dished pistons!
    Those are a bit fuzzy, that will be fixed when I up update in the next day or two. They have switched formats a few times so the quality is not the best.

    Both the gap shim and the velocity shims will flex. A 16mm velocity shim pretty much seals. The the main sealing of the compression stack comes from the 10mm compression shim stack though, that's what allows for the use of gap shims without alloing oil to backflowon the rebound stroke

  9. #9
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    Finally have a update:

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-shim-info.jpg

    This page talks about the gap shim, Oil flow paths, and yellow bleed piston. Posted earlier, but this is the complete page and should have better quality

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-piston.jpg

    Hopefully updated pic of gap shim changes

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-gap-shim-change.jpg

    Compression stack suggestions and Dyno info for them. Notice that the 10mm stack stays the same in every configuration, yet the curve changes significantly by only changing the 8mm stack:

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-1.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-2.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-3.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-4.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-5.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-6.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-7.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-8.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-high-speed.jpg

    Yellow bleed piston against Red piston:

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-red-vs-yellow.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-yel-comp-1.jpg

    Rebound Stack suggestions and Dyno info:

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-reb-1.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-reb-2.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-reb-3.jpg

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-reb-compare.jpg



    Clicking on the pictures, they appear clear on my computer. I hope this Info is helpful to people and get used.

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    Nice, thatís a goldmine of information right there! Shame other brands donít make that kind of info public, but I guess that would just expose how woeful the big 2ís stock tunes are. Fox give us a least 9 rebound tunes of varying use while compression tends to come in soft, really soft, harsh but soft or really harsh but soft!

    Interesting comparing the rebound graphs between the red piston and blue piston, the red looks softer even with no bleed and more shims just because of the 0.5mm change in clamp! - I wouldnít have picked that

  11. #11
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    Excellent work Nick. Now I'm just waiting for Ed to finish his fancy shim boards!
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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    Thank you Mullen!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Excellent work Nick. Now I'm just waiting for Ed to finish his fancy shim boards!
    Thanks!

    Me too, I need one pretty bad. My current set up is no longer adequate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Nice, thatís a goldmine of information right there! Shame other brands donít make that kind of info public, but I guess that would just expose how woeful the big 2ís stock tunes are. Fox give us a least 9 rebound tunes of varying use while compression tends to come in soft, really soft, harsh but soft or really harsh but soft!

    Interesting comparing the rebound graphs between the red piston and blue piston, the red looks softer even with no bleed and more shims just because of the 0.5mm change in clamp! - I wouldnít have picked that
    I need to rework that bottom rebound pic, a little bit if information is missing off to the side. I will try to fix it tonight.

    Both stacks use the red piston, it just compares two stacks that are similar on low speed rebound, but separate as rebound speeds are higher. While the clamp shim makes a significant difference, the added 12x.15 makes the top stock have more high speed rebound in comparison

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    Great! Too bad for someone like me new to suspension tinkering it's all hieroglyphics

    Any suggestions for a 140 lb rider, before gear (I do put water in my pak) should do? I'm on a Bronson v1, so terrible small bump/initial stroke, looking for something softer. When I set the Mcleod to have a softer initial stroke, I sit really low (pedal strikes, go through travel a bit) and when I have it a little firmer, still harsh on high speed chunder and then don't blow through travel at all.

    I have the 2018 tune right now, but the first one not the revised one (per another post you replied to). I'm also thinking I need to try the king can.

    I'm not aggressive anymore (but maybe that's because I've lost confidence in my suspension), so I don't mind giving up a little on top end so it's more comfortable.

    I'm also wondering if it's my stiff carbon frame and my carbon enve wheels that is causing me this feeling of harshness.

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    I donít know if thereís room for or if people advocate it for the McLeod but in the past on shocks with a sealed neg spring, Iíve added an extra top out bumper or oring to reduce the neg spring volume and give a higher negative spring force/softer initial rate for better sensitivity

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I donít know if thereís room for or if people advocate it for the McLeod but in the past on shocks with a sealed neg spring, Iíve added an extra top out bumper or oring to reduce the neg spring volume and give a higher negative spring force/softer initial rate for better sensitivity
    That gives a lower negative compression ratio, less negative force and higher positive preload.

    The opposite of your intent. Because the chamber volume increases in size more than the volume of the bumper/oring used.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That gives a lower negative compression ratio, less negative force and higher positive preload.

    The opposite of your intent. Because the chamber volume increases in size more than the volume of the bumper/oring used.
    Iím talking about in the air can to reduce the negative chamber volume

    I guess I should have clarified this more, like I say Iíve not had one of these open to know what space is available.

    The way to do it is so that the new o ring nests inside or outside any that may already present so you arenít reducing the extended length in any way, or extending the length of the neg chamber

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Iím talking about in the air can to reduce the negative chamber volume
    Yes that is what you wrote. But that's not how it works.

    The chamber volume increases in size more than the volume of the bumper/oring used.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Just saw the service manual, I see the top out bumper does cover the whole width. Do these shocks have a hard top out against the bumper instead of a pneumatic stop or hydraulic top out in the damper?

    I assumed there wasnít a physical top out in the air spring so adding a spacer wouldnít affect the size of the chamber

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Just saw the service manual, I see the top out bumper does cover the whole width. Do these shocks have a hard top out against the bumper instead of a pneumatic stop or hydraulic top out in the damper?

    I assumed there wasnít a physical top out in the air spring so adding a spacer wouldnít affect the size of the chamber
    Top-out is done in the air-can.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Great! Too bad for someone like me new to suspension tinkering it's all hieroglyphics

    Any suggestions for a 140 lb rider, before gear (I do put water in my pak) should do? I'm on a Bronson v1, so terrible small bump/initial stroke, looking for something softer. When I set the Mcleod to have a softer initial stroke, I sit really low (pedal strikes, go through travel a bit) and when I have it a little firmer, still harsh on high speed chunder and then don't blow through travel at all.

    I have the 2018 tune right now, but the first one not the revised one (per another post you replied to). I'm also thinking I need to try the king can.

    I'm not aggressive anymore (but maybe that's because I've lost confidence in my suspension), so I don't mind giving up a little on top end so it's more comfortable.

    I'm also wondering if it's my stiff carbon frame and my carbon enve wheels that is causing me this feeling of harshness.
    The carbon wheels don't help, and neither does your leverage curve.

    A few suggestions:

    Do an air can service. Pull the can, grease(slick honey/ slicoleum) the seals, and put it back on. This will reset the negative air chamber. No need to replace seals, just lube them up. In general, this should be done as maintenance every 3-6 months.

    If you were to do shim changes, the yellow bleed piston would help. The small amount of oil passing freely makes for a more sensitive shock.

    You can also pair this with a slightly smaller gap shim if needed.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Just saw the service manual, I see the top out bumper does cover the whole width. Do these shocks have a hard top out against the bumper instead of a pneumatic stop or hydraulic top out in the damper?

    I assumed there wasnít a physical top out in the air spring so adding a spacer wouldnít affect the size of the chamber
    The negative spring pressure is the top out bumper (along with the foam). This works because there is no dimple method of equalization, the negative spring is set when the air can is intalled. This method insures no dead stroke as the air piston passes the dimple, and no crazy pressures to achieve reasonable sag numbers.

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    Very very cool!

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    This is fantastic, thanks for putting this together. McLeod is already amazing stock so having this resource is just wow. Trying to figure out which stack to go with hmm.

    Currently running my recently bought (so assuming newest stack) mcleod on IPA 3 (one out from full hard) to get mid/high speed support I like but can definitely tell I'm sacrificing a bit with too much LSC. Hoping to get a stiffer stack so I can run less IPA and rely more on speed stack.

    Think of trying the following stack, wonder if anyone has tried it or if you have dyno curves on it? It's either this or try and mess with the clamp shim but seems like it's hard to get bigger sizes per your comment.

    8x11x.1 (clamp shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x15x.1 (gap shim)

    Seems like yellow piston would be right up my ally as well especially since don't care for the LSC knee offered by IPA.

    A little background for context - on an Ibis HD4 which has a relatively high leverage ratio (3.16 - 2.44), I seem to prefer a more damped ride on compression side in general, 160lb 'aggressive' rider whatever that means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    This is fantastic, thanks for putting this together. McLeod is already amazing stock so having this resource is just wow. Trying to figure out which stack to go with hmm.

    Currently running my recently bought (so assuming newest stack) mcleod on IPA 3 (one out from full hard) to get mid/high speed support I like but can definitely tell I'm sacrificing a bit with too much LSC. Hoping to get a stiffer stack so I can run less IPA and rely more on speed stack.

    Think of trying the following stack, wonder if anyone has tried it or if you have dyno curves on it? It's either this or try and mess with the clamp shim but seems like it's hard to get bigger sizes per your comment.

    8x11x.1 (clamp shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x15x.1 (gap shim)

    Seems like yellow piston would be right up my ally as well especially since don't care for the LSC knee offered by IPA.

    A little background for context - on an Ibis HD4 which has a relatively high leverage ratio (3.16 - 2.44), I seem to prefer a more damped ride on compression side in general, 160lb 'aggressive' rider whatever that means.
    Similar stacks to your suggestion were tried early on and worked well. I will have to look at my notes from a few years ago to see exactly what was tried. I believe we paired the 2 velocity shims (tried 15x.1s as well). With a smaller clamp (10) and a smaller gap shim (12 or 13). From memory, going with a large gap shim created quite a bit of harshness. It's a good place to start.

    Using no gap shim (16mm face) may work for you as well.

    One thing to note. If you change the 8mm stacks overall thickness(from .3 to .4 thick), the piston lip that the 10mm stack rests on gets shifted down .1mm. this will create a .1mm float in the 10mm stack. You can add a 10x14x.1 shim to the stack to compensate, or adjust the shaft/eyelet interface to compensate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Similar stacks to your suggestion were tried early on and worked well. I will have to look at my notes from a few years ago to see exactly what was tried. I believe we paired the 2 velocity shims (tried 15x.1s as well). With a smaller clamp (10) and a smaller gap shim (12 or 13). From memory, going with a large gap shim created quite a bit of harshness. It's a good place to start.

    Using no gap shim (16mm face) may work for you as well.

    One thing to note. If you change the 8mm stacks overall thickness(from .3 to .4 thick), the piston lip that the 10mm stack rests on gets shifted down .1mm. this will create a .1mm float in the 10mm stack. You can add a 10x14x.1 shim to the stack to compensate, or adjust the shaft/eyelet interface to compensate.
    Nice work Nick!!

    Guys, I can say that Nick helped me completely transform my McLeod last year from something that I thought was a good shock, to something I was blown away with. I am a bigger rider and he had plenty of stack advise for both me and my frame. It was a blast relaying information back and fourth.

    Thanks again Nick. I owe yah one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The carbon wheels don't help, and neither does your leverage curve.

    A few suggestions:

    Do an air can service. Pull the can, grease(slick honey/ slicoleum) the seals, and put it back on. This will reset the negative air chamber. No need to replace seals, just lube them up. In general, this should be done as maintenance every 3-6 months.

    If you were to do shim changes, the yellow bleed piston would help. The small amount of oil passing freely makes for a more sensitive shock.

    You can also pair this with a slightly smaller gap shim if needed.
    Got it, so I'll do the service (Just got a pipe strap wrench).

    How nicely do I have to ask Manitou for the yellow bleed piston? I don't mind paying for it, just want to word it correctly lol.

    And just changing the gap shim doesn't sound too scary at all. Maybe try a 14 or 13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Got it, so I'll do the service (Just got a pipe strap wrench).

    How nicely do I have to ask Manitou for the yellow bleed piston? I don't mind paying for it, just want to word it correctly lol.

    And just changing the gap shim doesn't sound too scary at all. Maybe try a 14 or 13?
    You shouldn't have to beg, just mention this thread and ask and they should send it out. You will be the first attempt, so let us know what they say.

    Measure your current shim stack with calipers and then decide what to change. It's hard to give advice without knowing exactly what tune you are working with. Just the bleed piston and no tune changes will help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Nice work Nick!!

    Guys, I can say that Nick helped me completely transform my McLeod last year from something that I thought was a good shock, to something I was blown away with. I am a bigger rider and he had plenty of stack advise for both me and my frame. It was a blast relaying information back and fourth.

    Thanks again Nick. I owe yah one!
    Thanks for the kind words Rodney!

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    If @mullen119 is kind enough to prime with with some part numbers then I can pull these pistons and relevant size shims into my next Hayes order.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You shouldn't have to beg, just mention this thread and ask and they should send it out. You will be the first attempt, so let us know what they say.

    Measure your current shim stack with calipers and then decide what to change. It's hard to give advice without knowing exactly what tune you are working with. Just the bleed piston and no tune changes will help.
    Great! I'll get on that.

    Sidenote: I think the original Pike Solo and Fox CTD on my bronson made me skittish. I had no faith in my suspension so I ended up riding way to far back. My bike handled like sh**.

    Kept reading about "VPP needs you to ride aggressive." I thought that just meant go faster. Then I kept reading that I needed my COG over the pedals/pivots.

    I haven't taken it to the trail that tests my suspension yet (rain) but man what a difference! Duh, I used to ride like that when I first got the bike but then my lack of confidence pushed me back. Now just riding aggressively and the Mcleod is already working better without changing a thing. Crazy.

    I'll ask for them for the bleed piston.

    EDIT: Oh wait, I should open mine up and look first.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If @mullen119 is kind enough to prime with with some part numbers then I can pull these pistons and relevant size shims into my next Hayes order.
    As of now, it's not an item that is sold. There may be a tuning kit available in the future that will include it , as well as some of the odd ball shim sizes that you can't buy elsewhere.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    As of now, it's not an item that is sold. There may be a tuning kit available in the future that will include it , as well as some of the odd ball shim sizes that you can't buy elsewhere.
    You've got an email.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    As of now, it's not an item that is sold. There may be a tuning kit available in the future that will include it , as well as some of the odd ball shim sizes that you can't buy elsewhere.
    I'm about to send my McLeod to Zack (in Vancouver) and he's not aware the yellow/bleed piston is available. Can you confirm if Manitou is sending them on request?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    I'm about to send my McLeod to Zack (in Vancouver) and he's not aware the yellow/bleed piston is available. Can you confirm if Manitou is sending them on request?
    Tell him he can get one from Ed. He will know

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    I'm about to send my McLeod to Zack (in Vancouver) and he's not aware the yellow/bleed piston is available. Can you confirm if Manitou is sending them on request?
    For future reference, Manitou is willing to send care packages to end users who want to tune and email or call tech support looking for it.

    This may not carry over over to service centers as they are unlikely to have the pistons available, and may not be aware of therir existence. Zack and Dougal are different stories, but other service centers probably won't be able to help. This thread is more for end user tuning.
    Last edited by mullen119; 01-24-2019 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You shouldn't have to beg, just mention this thread and ask and they should send it out. You will be the first attempt, so let us know what they say.

    Measure your current shim stack with calipers and then decide what to change. It's hard to give advice without knowing exactly what tune you are working with. Just the bleed piston and no tune changes will help.
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    For future reference, Manitou is willing to send care packages to end users who want to tune and email or call tech support looking for it.

    This may not carry over over to service centers as they are unlikely to have the pistons available, and may not be aware of therir existence. Zack and Dougal are different stories, but other service centers probably won't be able to help. This thread is more for end user tuning.

    Emailed them last week, and again this week and didn't hear anything ... until yesterday when Ed said the team is traveling with the shim kit but as soon as they return Monday, he's sending me a yellow piston AND shims (which I didn't even ask for). Woohoo!

    He also said this:

    "Please ask questions if you need help with the rebuild, and check out the service videos on Yotube or our website. Donít forget to bleed off the air can pressure before removing air can, and the IFP pressure before opening the damper.

    Do you have the IFP fitting tool? (multi-tool on a key chain) We also have a nitrogen charge block that allows the shock to be mounted securely and charged with nitrogen. (requires your own tank and regulator) You can also use a hand pump that goes to 400psi."

    I thought it was 300 psi? I Have a rockshox pump that goes to 300 psi. Should I get something beefier? Keep in mind I'm 145 lb

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Emailed them last week, and again this week and didn't hear anything ... until yesterday when Ed said the team is traveling with the shim kit but as soon as they return Monday, he's sending me a yellow piston AND shims (which I didn't even ask for). Woohoo!

    He also said this:

    "Please ask questions if you need help with the rebuild, and check out the service videos on Yotube or our website. Donít forget to bleed off the air can pressure before removing air can, and the IFP pressure before opening the damper.

    Do you have the IFP fitting tool? (multi-tool on a key chain) We also have a nitrogen charge block that allows the shock to be mounted securely and charged with nitrogen. (requires your own tank and regulator) You can also use a hand pump that goes to 400psi."

    I thought it was 300 psi? I Have a rockshox pump that goes to 300 psi. Should I get something beefier? Keep in mind I'm 145 lb
    I run 325psi in my McLeods with no issues. You can achieve this with a 300 psi pump.

    Agressive riders who ride in IPA 3/4 have shown signs of cavitation, so higher pressures have been speced to prevent it. Open and ipa2 are less likely to have this happen.

    At a minimum, run 300psi. Try to go as high as you can get it with your current pump.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I run 325psi in my McLeods with no issues. You can achieve this with a 300 psi pump.

    Agressive riders who ride in IPA 3/4 have shown signs of cavitation, so higher pressures have been speced to prevent it. Open and ipa2 are less likely to have this happen.

    At a minimum, run 300psi. Try to go as high as you can get it with your current pump.
    I am thinking about getting this shock for my dw-link style bike (2017 bmc speedfox). I am 250 pounds. Do you think i would benefit from the yellow piston and/or a higher IFP charge? I work for a bike shop so there is a possibility of buying it directly from Manitou. I am wondering if there is any chance they could send it to me with a higher nitrogen charge.
    My name is George. Iím unemployed and I live with my parents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_joe View Post
    I am thinking about getting this shock for my dw-link style bike (2017 bmc speedfox). I am 250 pounds. Do you think i would benefit from the yellow piston and/or a higher IFP charge? I work for a bike shop so there is a possibility of buying it directly from Manitou. I am wondering if there is any chance they could send it to me with a higher nitrogen charge.
    The IFP pressure is easy. Get the keychain tool as that's your pump adapter and IFP cap tool, p/n in link: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/ifp-val...n-manitou.html

    Then get a 600psi shock pump and pump it up. We've run 500psi for many bigger and harder charging customers.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The IFP pressure is easy. Get the keychain tool as that's your pump adapter and IFP cap tool, p/n in link: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/ifp-val...n-manitou.html

    Then get a 600psi shock pump and pump it up. We've run 500psi for many bigger and harder charging customers.
    Do you have any thoughts about which piston might be better for heavy riders?
    My name is George. Iím unemployed and I live with my parents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_joe View Post
    Do you have any thoughts about which piston might be better for heavy riders?
    The pistons are identical other than the gold piston having a small free bleed. This makes the knee of the damping curve more rounded giving a smoother transition as shims start to open when they are significantly preloaded (IPA 3-4)

    This means the IPA 3-4 are not as stiff with the gold piston compared to the red piston. Instead of it being about the weight of the rider, piston selection is more about xc (red piston with firm lock out) vs AM/enduro type riding (gold piston with better response but no firm lockout)

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    I still have an older stack. Compression 12mm ,1 and 12mm ,2 shims - rebound 16mm ,2 + 10mm ,2 + clamp shim 11mm 1,15 thickness.
    Since my other mcleod has an even older serial number, iím assuming it has the same shim configuration. Iíll contact manitou service to see if they can send me some shims. And also for my mattoc comp while iím at it.

    Btw, i noticed my rebound only turns 3/4 of a turn. How can i fix this. The other mcleod turns about 1 and 1/4. Odd that they arenít the same. Iím near the end of the rebound on both shocks so i never noticed this. Both are in the last 1/4 of a turn.

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    I have the same configuration as Hurck. I have Banshee Spitfire, my weight is 70 kgs (154 lbs), my rear shock has a tendency to buck me out of the saddle after hitting a rock at low speed. It seems to be ideally configured to match Pike 2014 (I hate Pike, and already got rid of it).
    I do not jump much, I do not ride bikeparks, I prefer trails and do long rides in mountains.
    I am planning to set up my shock as follows, and would be happy to hear your advice:
    Red Piston, the 10mm stack is OK.

    8 mm compression stack (now 8x.2 x1, 8x.15 x1):
    8x11x.1 clamp shim

    8x15x.1 velocity shim

    8x12x.1 gap shim


    Rebound Stack (now 8x16x.2 x1, 8x10x.2 x1):
    I am not sure if it is just enough to change 8x16.2 to 8x15.2 ?

    I planned to have:

    8x15x.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x.2
    It is .4 mm thicker than what I have now. Maybe considering my weight I could/should go even softer? But I am not sure how to do it. Please, can anyone advise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hurck View Post
    Btw, i noticed my rebound only turns 3/4 of a turn. How can i fix this. The other mcleod turns about 1 and 1/4. Odd that they arenít the same. Iím near the end of the rebound on both shocks so i never noticed this. Both are in the last 1/4 of a turn.
    I have very much the same, but turns only 1/4. What to do about it?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by yancho View Post
    I have the same configuration as Hurck. I have Banshee Spitfire, my weight is 70 kgs (154 lbs), my rear shock has a tendency to buck me out of the saddle after hitting a rock at low speed. It seems to be ideally configured to match Pike 2014 (I hate Pike, and already got rid of it).
    I do not jump much, I do not ride bikeparks, I prefer trails and do long rides in mountains.
    I am planning to set up my shock as follows, and would be happy to hear your advice:
    Red Piston, the 10mm stack is OK.

    8 mm compression stack (now 8x.2 x1, 8x.15 x1):
    8x11x.1 clamp shim

    8x15x.1 velocity shim

    8x12x.1 gap shim


    Rebound Stack (now 8x16x.2 x1, 8x10x.2 x1):
    I am not sure if it is just enough to change 8x16.2 to 8x15.2 ?

    I planned to have:

    8x15x.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x.2
    It is .4 mm thicker than what I have now. Maybe considering my weight I could/should go even softer? But I am not sure how to do it. Please, can anyone advise?



    I have very much the same, but turns only 1/4. What to do about it?
    Try riding faster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yancho View Post
    I have the same configuration as Hurck. I have Banshee Spitfire, my weight is 70 kgs (154 lbs), my rear shock has a tendency to buck me out of the saddle after hitting a rock at low speed. It seems to be ideally configured to match Pike 2014 (I hate Pike, and already got rid of it).
    I do not jump much, I do not ride bikeparks, I prefer trails and do long rides in mountains.
    I am planning to set up my shock as follows, and would be happy to hear your advice:
    Red Piston, the 10mm stack is OK.

    8 mm compression stack (now 8x.2 x1, 8x.15 x1):
    8x11x.1 clamp shim

    8x15x.1 velocity shim

    8x12x.1 gap shim


    Rebound Stack (now 8x16x.2 x1, 8x10x.2 x1):
    I am not sure if it is just enough to change 8x16.2 to 8x15.2 ?

    I planned to have:

    8x15x.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x.2
    It is .4 mm thicker than what I have now. Maybe considering my weight I could/should go even softer? But I am not sure how to do it. Please, can anyone advise?



    I have very much the same, but turns only 1/4. What to do about it?
    Bucking can mean your spring rate is too high. Have a roll through this guide and see where it puts you compared to where you're currently at.

    Mismatches in spring rate vs ride height are dealt with by air chamber volume adjustments.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by yancho View Post
    I have the same configuration as Hurck. I have Banshee Spitfire, my weight is 70 kgs (154 lbs), my rear shock has a tendency to buck me out of the saddle after hitting a rock at low speed. It seems to be ideally configured to match Pike 2014 (I hate Pike, and already got rid of it).
    I do not jump much, I do not ride bikeparks, I prefer trails and do long rides in mountains.
    I am planning to set up my shock as follows, and would be happy to hear your advice:
    Red Piston, the 10mm stack is OK.

    8 mm compression stack (now 8x.2 x1, 8x.15 x1):
    8x11x.1 clamp shim

    8x15x.1 velocity shim

    8x12x.1 gap shim


    Rebound Stack (now 8x16x.2 x1, 8x10x.2 x1):
    I am not sure if it is just enough to change 8x16.2 to 8x15.2 ?

    I planned to have:

    8x15x.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x.2
    It is .4 mm thicker than what I have now. Maybe considering my weight I could/should go even softer? But I am not sure how to do it. Please, can anyone advise?



    I have very much the same, but turns only 1/4. What to do about it?
    That is the rebound stack I'm running, as is my wife and most of the people I know. It's a great place to start and there is a really good chance you will never need to touch it again. The 15mm rebound shims is more about compression flow than rebound flow. 16mm shims slightly cover the compression ports and choke flow a little.

    On the compression stack, I would go a little wider on the gap shim. It will add low speed stability without adding harshness. I would start with 14mm X .1 and see how you like it.

  49. #49
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    @yancho, i also run the shock on a spitfire, I'm a fair bit heavier than you though I already had a reply from Zack @manitou. He asked me to open my other shock aswel to see what's going on in there. It had the same stack as the other. When I opened the bleed screw the oil foamed for a good minute, so a service on that one was really needed.
    When I get news from manitou I'll get back here to post their recommandations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Bucking can mean your spring rate is too high. Have a roll through this guide and see where it puts you compared to where you're currently at.

    Mismatches in spring rate vs ride height are dealt with by air chamber volume adjustments.
    I have king can, set at 1/2 (standard McLeod/Spitfire configuration) and have no problem with volume adjustment, this is not the issue.
    I did not have any other shock absorber in Spitfire but they worked better with Rune RS and Xfusion when compared to what I have now. Nevertheless I'm a fan of McLeod, there must be some way to set it up.
    I don't know my shimstack configuration diagram, so I have no clue how to compare it to the diagrams in the manual. Mullen used to have such a setup if I am correct

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    That is the rebound stack I'm running, as is my wife and most of the people I know. It's a great place to start and there is a really good chance you will never need to touch it again. The 15mm rebound shims is more about compression flow than rebound flow. 16mm shims slightly cover the compression ports and choke flow a little.

    On the compression stack, I would go a little wider on the gap shim. It will add low speed stability without adding harshness. I would start with 14mm X .1 and see how you like it.
    OK, I'll set rebound as you say.
    So I should start with compression stack this way:
    8x11x.1 clamp shim
    8x15x.1 velocity shim
    8x14x.1 gap shim

    Quote Originally Posted by hurck View Post
    Btw, i noticed my rebound only turns 3/4 of a turn. How ....................
    On the other side of rebound, there's a screw (1,5mm allen key) it's to fix the range of knob. Now, I feel a bit ashamed.

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    Debating getting the McLeod bleed tool, can anyone talk me out of it or is it nice to have?

    Yellow piston is on the way, looking forward to some tinkering

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Debating getting the McLeod bleed tool, can anyone talk me out of it or is it nice to have?

    Yellow piston is on the way, looking forward to some tinkering

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    You don't need it, it's pretty easy to get a good bleed without it, especially with the yellow piston.

  53. #53
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    Excellent write-up, and really helpful! The McLeod is already such a great shock, and having something like this as a resource makes it even better.

    I have one quick dumb question, and one tuning question:

    q: Under the bolt that has the rebound check valve, my stock setup had a large thick washer. Is it necessary to re-use this washer, or is that only to take up space in the event of a smaller stack? In my case with the current shim stack listed above, there was no slack in the shim stack (e.g. with the bolt tightened down, I couldn't detect any movement in the piston), so I opted not to re-use this washer. Is it okay to bolt directly onto the shims and not use this washer?

    tuning:
    I added a duplicate "velocity shim" so my stack looks like this:
    8x11x.1 (functions as a clamp shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x14x.1 (gap shim)

    I was hoping to add a little HSC. I guess the answer will be "ride it and find out", but in general should I stick to more incremental changes? (I noticed above the dyno plot for 2x 16's with no 14, but keeping the gap shim seemed important. Will ride tonight and see how it does)

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    Excellent write-up, and really helpful! The McLeod is already such a great shock, and having something like this as a resource makes it even better.

    I have one quick dumb question, and one tuning question:

    q: Under the bolt that has the rebound check valve, my stock setup had a large thick washer. Is it necessary to re-use this washer, or is that only to take up space in the event of a smaller stack? In my case with the current shim stack listed above, there was no slack in the shim stack (e.g. with the bolt tightened down, I couldn't detect any movement in the piston), so I opted not to re-use this washer. Is it okay to bolt directly onto the shims and not use this washer?


    tuning:
    I added a duplicate "velocity shim" so my stack looks like this:
    8x11x.1 (functions as a clamp shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x16x.1 (velocity shim)
    8x14x.1 (gap shim)

    I was hoping to add a little HSC. I guess the answer will be "ride it and find out", but in general should I stick to more incremental changes? (I noticed above the dyno plot for 2x 16's with no 14, but keeping the gap shim seemed important. Will ride tonight and see how it does)
    You are mostly correct on the washer being there to take up space on the rebound stack. If everything tightens up properly with no movement of the piston, it won't hurt anything. (better to test if it will spin when tightened down than up and down movement)

    Your compression stack change is fine, it will be a pretty big change, but that will allow you notice it, then you can go back in and fine tune.

    It is important to keep a velocity clamp shim, the gap shim mostly changes low speed compression and small bump sensitivity. You can use one or not, it's not a must. Just depends on the ride characteristics you want.

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    Awesome, thanks again! I was really impressed with the changes tonight on my ride. I'll keep tinkering.

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    So to follow up, well there isn't much news... They haven't responded to my email in over 3 weeks, sent them a reminder about a week ago but nothing. Anyone know where these shims can be found in Europe? Great write up and eager to try it on my shocks, but without the shims i can't do anything. Pretty disappointed in manitou's service department.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurck View Post
    So to follow up, well there isn't much news... They haven't responded to my email in over 3 weeks, sent them a reminder about a week ago but nothing. Anyone know where these shims can be found in Europe? Great write up and eager to try it on my shocks, but without the shims i can't do anything. Pretty disappointed in manitou's service department.
    Most of Manitou (USA) has been traveling for various reasons. Not sure if you are contacting the USA of a European partner.

    As for shims in Europe, I'm not sure. I would start a thread asking the question, or contact a service center like TF tuned and see if they will sell them to you.

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    I was emailing with USA tech support. I have had some bad experiences with the distributor for Europe. It seems like they don't have much knowledge on the manitou products. At least that was the impression i got from them.
    I got bought some shims from tf tuned before, but at that time they were hesitant to sell them (was for my rs pike). I'll contact them again and see if they have stock on the shims needed for the mcleod.
    Already tried with shockcraft since i was ordering a abs+ mini tuning kit there, but they didn't have any stock of the shims needed for the mcleod.

  59. #59
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    hurck,
    MRC Suspension

    https://www.mrc-trading.de/Fahrwerk/Shims/

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    Thanks a lot @yancho!! They have all the sizes needed. Going to order them there.

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    Just wanted to confirm how the rebound adjuster works. I suppose it regulates the size of the orifice in the shaft. And then there is another flow through the rebound shim stack that cannot be adjusted externally?

    When I tuned my Monarch I increased the stiffness of the main rebound stack (unregulated one). This allowed me to open the rebound adjuster more, increasing the flow during small compressions (e.g when riding over shatter or small roots) without increasing the flow during large compressions (e.g. when riding in bumpy track). The shock did not pack up on small repeated hits and at the same time did not kick back when recovering from big hits.

    I haven't had enough rides on McLeod but I have feeling that I should do same - increase the stiffness of the rebound stack to match my weight (100kg). On Monarch I had to go to H+ rebound stack - it is standard H stack + one extra shim.

    On the rebound dyno stacks the lowest line corresponds to the fully closed adjuster where all the flow goes through the shimstack, right?

    If I understood Mullen correctly, the best way would be to increase the diameter of the clamp shim from 10mm to 10.3, 10.5, ... ?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Just wanted to confirm how the rebound adjuster works. I suppose it regulates the size of the orifice in the shaft. And then there is another flow through the rebound shim stack that cannot be adjusted externally?

    When I tuned my Monarch I increased the stiffness of the main rebound stack (unregulated one). This allowed me to open the rebound adjuster more, increasing the flow during small compressions (e.g when riding over shatter or small roots) without increasing the flow during large compressions (e.g. when riding in bumpy track). The shock did not pack up on small repeated hits and at the same time did not kick back when recovering from big hits.

    I haven't had enough rides on McLeod but I have feeling that I should do same - increase the stiffness of the rebound stack to match my weight (100kg). On Monarch I had to go to H+ rebound stack - it is standard H stack + one extra shim.

    On the rebound dyno stacks the lowest line corresponds to the fully closed adjuster where all the flow goes through the shimstack, right?

    If I understood Mullen correctly, the best way would be to increase the diameter of the clamp shim from 10mm to 10.3, 10.5, ... ?
    Correct, the clamp shim diameter sets the slope of the curve. So if you want more HSR, but want LSR to stay similar, going wider on the clamp shim is the way to go. A stiffer overall stack will change the entire curve.

  63. #63
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    Can I use Rockshox Shock hardware with a McLeod?
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Can I use Rockshox Shock hardware with a McLeod?
    Most of the time, yes.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  65. #65
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    What torque should be used for the bolt that holds piston and shimstack in place?

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    hey guys


    just got a new mcleod and pulled it apart to see if i had a 15 or 16 mm rebound shim and looks like i have the 16, so i have some room to improve with the 15.


    Other thing I noticed is my 8mm id compression stack has no 16mm velocity shim, i was looking at the above tune combos and did not see that.. is mine assembled correctly?

    The shock has a few problems, mostly when going from compression to rebound there is a clunk...any ideas?

    last of all i am canada, does any one know a good source to buy shims?


    Thanks

    MIke
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-20190520_194047.jpg  


  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinmini View Post
    hey guys
    -snip-
    last of all i am canada, does any one know a good source to buy shims?


    Thanks

    MIke
    https://direct-suspension.com/collections/spare-parts
    is in Calgary near Blackfoot Cycle, and have free in-store pickup, but, I ordered some shims at the beginning of April, and have not gotten a pickup notice yet, so I don't know if they're waiting for a shipment, or just incompetent.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinmini View Post
    hey guys


    just got a new mcleod and pulled it apart to see if i had a 15 or 16 mm rebound shim and looks like i have the 16, so i have some room to improve with the 15.


    Other thing I noticed is my 8mm id compression stack has no 16mm velocity shim, i was looking at the above tune combos and did not see that.. is mine assembled correctly?

    The shock has a few problems, mostly when going from compression to rebound there is a clunk...any ideas?

    last of all i am canada, does any one know a good source to buy shims?


    Thanks

    MIke
    The standard McLeod setup was no velocity shims and 16mm rebound. I have yet to come across one with a different tune inside.

    For clunks, the first thing to check is the IPA lever adjuster screw (1.5mm hex) is adjusted in so the lever starts on the first notch. There can be other causes, but that's the most common.
    If that is the case then the clunk goes away with one-two clicks of IPA.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The standard McLeod setup was no velocity shims and 16mm rebound. I have yet to come across one with a different tune inside.

    For clunks, the first thing to check is the IPA lever adjuster screw (1.5mm hex) is adjusted in so the lever starts on the first notch. There can be other causes, but that's the most common.
    If that is the case then the clunk goes away with one-two clicks of IPA.
    Interesting.... So the 16mm velcity shim is a upgrade? How exactly does the velcity shim change the feel of the shock? Little more support and bottom ou resistance?

    It seems to get less clunky with a little ipa.... What is the 1.5mm hex you speak of?

    To me it seems like the compression shims are to loose with no ipa and they are clunking transitioning from compression to rebound.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    https://direct-suspension.com/collections/spare-parts
    is in Calgary near Blackfoot Cycle, and have free in-store pickup, but, I ordered some shims at the beginning of April, and have not gotten a pickup notice yet, so I don't know if they're waiting for a shipment, or just incompetent.
    They are now Blackfoot direct i believe, i stopped in and talked to the head suspension tuner and he told me they won't sell shims cause it takes away from his business... Lol

    So i don't know if you will ever get your shims?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinmini View Post
    Interesting.... So the 16mm velcity shim is a upgrade? How exactly does the velcity shim change the feel of the shock? Little more support and bottom ou resistance?

    It seems to get less clunky with a little ipa.... What is the 1.5mm hex you speak of?

    To me it seems like the compression shims are to loose with no ipa and they are clunking transitioning from compression to rebound.
    The horizontal set screw in the shock head sets the zero position of the IPA lever. Which sets the starting point of the shim preload. It should be pretty much zero.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The horizontal set screw in the shock head sets the zero position of the IPA lever. Which sets the starting point of the shim preload. It should be pretty much zero.

    Awesome, now that you mentioned that i remember seeing that and found a post where you recomended that. I did tighten it up about half a turn, hopefully that does it but my shock is all apart waiting for shims so itll be a bit before i know for sure i guess.


    Any input on the 15 or 16mm velcity shim comparred to what my stock tune is???

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinmini View Post
    Awesome, now that you mentioned that i remember seeing that and found a post where you recomended that. I did tighten it up about half a turn, hopefully that does it but my shock is all apart waiting for shims so itll be a bit before i know for sure i guess.


    Any input on the 15 or 16mm velcity shim comparred to what my stock tune is???
    I haven't run a different compression stack. I was very happy with the performance of the stock shims. I did change to 15mm rebound shims which helped compression response to sharp impacts.

    For the last year I've been on a custom built manitou coil and then the new Mara prototype. So my McLeod testing stalled.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  74. #74
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    I managed to deform the tiny metall clip that keeps the rebound check valve in place I tried to remove it like you remove normal circlip but that was not a correct way. You should probably slip it sideways. It is probably not safe to use it? Where could I get new one? Is it something standard or specific to McLeod?


  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    I managed to deform the tiny metall clip that keeps the rebound check valve in place I tried to remove it like you remove normal circlip but that was not a correct way. You should probably slip it sideways. It is probably not safe to use it? Where could I get new one? Is it something standard or specific to McLeod?

    You can try bending it back with needle nose pliers to get by. Email tech support and see if they will send you a couple out. Not sure if it can be sourced anywhere else.

    It's best to leave the rebound check valve attached. That clip is finicky because it's so small.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostinmini View Post
    Awesome, now that you mentioned that i remember seeing that and found a post where you recomended that. I did tighten it up about half a turn, hopefully that does it but my shock is all apart waiting for shims so itll be a bit before i know for sure i guess.


    Any input on the 15 or 16mm velcity shim comparred to what my stock tune is???
    16mm velocity shims completely cover the ports, so they will give less free bleed (none if you don't use a gap shim) giving more low to mid speed support(but worse small bump).

    I personally use 15mm, but others use 16. I use a different IPA stack than everyone else that let's me dial in compression differently than others.

    My suggestion would be to start with 16mm and see if you like it. If think it's too harsh, go to 15mm.

  77. #77
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    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You can try bending it back with needle nose pliers to get by. Email tech support and see if they will send you a couple out. Not sure if it can be sourced anywhere else.

    It's best to leave the rebound check valve attached. That clip is finicky because it's so small.
    For now I put it back and went for the test ride. Didnít encounter any problems so far.

    How can you remove the rebound valve without removing the shim? It seems to be so large that one cannot use a socket to unbolt the valve.

    It would be good to have a guide for reshimming too. This part is not covered in any of the videos. There seemed to be a red threadlocker on the rebound valve - I didnít use any during reassembly. I will probably open the shock again soon to try some different configuration.

    Must also solve the mounting hardware issue that is too loose. But Iím not going to spend money on this before I find good tune.

    Edit: another thing I noticed - the IFP valve core seems to be non-standard. It is flat from the back and when I reattached the pump the valve core did not open. Pump always showed 0 psi after I attached it. First I thought that Iím loosing the IFP pressure when I detached the pump, but when I manually depressed the pin in the valve adapter there was a blast of air. Seems like the valve core is closed by the pressure in the IFP chamber?

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    For now I put it back and went for the test ride. Didnít encounter any problems so far.

    How can you remove the rebound valve without removing the shim? It seems to be so large that one cannot use a socket to unbolt the valve.

    It would be good to have a guide for reshimming too. This part is not covered in any of the videos. There seemed to be a red threadlocker on the rebound valve - I didnít use any during reassembly. I will probably open the shock again soon to try some different configuration.

    Must also solve the mounting hardware issue that is too loose. But Iím not going to spend money on this before I find good tune.

    Edit: another thing I noticed - the IFP valve core seems to be non-standard. It is flat from the back and when I reattached the pump the valve core did not open. Pump always showed 0 psi after I attached it. First I thought that Iím loosing the IFP pressure when I detached the pump, but when I manually depressed the pin in the valve adapter there was a blast of air. Seems like the valve core is closed by the pressure in the IFP chamber?
    You can remove the piston bolt without disassemble. I stopped taking it apart after the metal clip issue you experienced happened on a few occasions. It's just to small to be constantly messed with. The bolt and shim are 10mm, so it works fine.

    The Manitou ifp tool has a pin inside it. When you screw it into the shock, it puts pressure on the pin. Attaching the shock pump then pushes the pin down opening the valve. Remove the pump from the ifp tool first when you are done filling and the valve will close before the seal is lost. Then detach the apter from the shock. The core is slightly different to give room for it to open.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You can remove the piston bolt without disassemble. I stopped taking it apart after the metal clip issue you experienced happened on a few occasions. It's just to small to be constantly messed with. The bolt and shim are 10mm, so it works fine.
    Ok, thatís good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The Manitou ifp tool has a pin inside it. When you screw it into the shock, it puts pressure on the pin. Attaching the shock pump then pushes the pin down opening the valve. Remove the pump from the ifp tool first when you are done filling and the valve will close before the seal is lost. Then detach the apter from the shock.
    Yes, this is how it is supposed to work. And when you reconnect the pump, after the pin has pushed down and valve has opened some pressurized air is moving from IFP chamber to pump and pressure gauge is showing some pressure. But that did not happen in my case. After reconnecting the pump the pressure was still zero. Tried two different pumps. First I thought that Iím loosing all the pressure when disconnecting the pump, but when I manually depressed the pin there was pressure. Seems like my pumps were not able to open the valve poperly?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Ok, thatís good to know.



    Yes, this is how it is supposed to work. And when you reconnect the pump, after the pin has pushed down and valve has opened some pressurized air is moving from IFP chamber to pump and pressure gauge is showing some pressure. But that did not happen in my case. After reconnecting the pump the pressure was still zero. Tried two different pumps. First I thought that Iím loosing all the pressure when disconnecting the pump, but when I manually depressed the pin there was pressure. Seems like my pumps were not able to open the valve poperly?
    Hmm, that does seen off. I have never tried reconnecting a pump to a charged ifp before. It should show a low pressure in theory. What happens if you pump the shock pump once after reattaching it?

  81. #81
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    When I start pumping the pressure starts to rise - little bit after each pump.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    When I start pumping the pressure starts to rise - little bit after each pump.
    That's very odd. when I get the chance, I'll do some testing and see if my shocks do the same.

    My initial thought is that the ifp volume is so small that it barely registers on the pump when reconnecting, but you would think it would show something.

  83. #83
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    Got the piston and a bunch of shims. Manitou and Nick are awesome for putting this together. Going to be trying heavier than stock compression stacks.

    Free bleed is super tiny. Can barely make it out on the zoomed picture below. Very cool.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Got the piston and a bunch of shims. Manitou and Nick are awesome for putting this together. Going to be trying heavier than stock compression stacks.

    Free bleed is super tiny. Can barely make it out on the zoomed picture below. Very cool.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Awesome, after you start tuning, post up your thoughts.

    Imo, the biggest gains cone from the the rebound side. If your pretty comfortable with doing full rebuilds, tune only one stack at a time so you can see how each changes the shock feel.

  85. #85
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    If anyone with a red piston wants to get some free bleed like the yellow piston has, you can add some small grooves to the raised piston lip and achieve a similar outcome (if you don't run a face shim that fully covers the compression ports). Just use the corner of a needle file, I put 3 grooves in the lip, aligned them with the ports.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by sine waiver View Post
    If anyone with a red piston wants to get some free bleed like the yellow piston has, you can add some small grooves to the raised piston lip and achieve a similar outcome (if you don't run a face shim that fully covers the compression ports). Just use the corner of a needle file, I put 3 grooves in the lip, aligned them with the ports.
    I wouldn't suggest this. The bleed port on the bleed piston is .1mm, its tiny. Any groove you make will likely bleed much more oil.

    The issue with that mostly comes from the flow on the rebound stroke. You will need to close the rebound adjuster more to compensate for more free flowing oil. You may run out of adjuster range

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Any groove you make will likely bleed much more oil.
    That's a bit of an exaggeration, you just have to make the groove the right right size, it is easy to do, it works and can be done incrementally to see the result. But you are probably right, if you do not know what you are aiming to achieve probably best to steer clear.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by sine waiver View Post
    That's a bit of an exaggeration, you just have to make the groove the right right size, it is easy to do, it works and can be done incrementally to see the result. But you are probably right, if you do not know what you are aiming to achieve probably best to steer clear.
    Anybody is free to try anything they want, but the .1mm bleed is super small. A file is crude and will hard to control the actual amount of oil flow. One tenth of a mm is super tiny.

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    Went with slightly modified tunes due to the shims I had on hand. Made big changes so I'm really looking forward to see how this will translate on the trail, felt really good on the 6 stair huck to flat =P. Thanks again mullen! Goal was more Mid/High speed compression at lower IPA settings as well as moving to 15mm rebound stack.

    Any tips on setting IPA float to exactly ~zero? Had a hard time telling by eye, seems fine where I set it but must be a better way.

    Old Rebound
    16x.2
    10x.2
    Old Compression (Red Piston)
    12x.2
    12x.15

    New Rebound
    15x.15
    14x.15
    12x.15
    12x.15
    10x.2
    New Compression (Yellow Piston)
    15x.1
    16x.1
    14x.1
    11x.1

    Kept Stock ipa stack although wish I could have replaced one of the 20 with pair of 14x.1 but did not have any.
    20x.2(3)
    14x.1(2)
    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-img_20190828_203154.jpg

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Went with slightly modified tunes due to the shims I had on hand. Made big changes so I'm really looking forward to see how this will translate on the trail, felt really good on the 6 stair huck to flat =P. Thanks again mullen! Goal was more Mid/High speed compression at lower IPA settings as well as moving to 15mm rebound stack.

    Any tips on setting IPA float to exactly ~zero? Had a hard time telling by eye, seems fine where I set it but must be a better way.

    Old Rebound
    16x.2
    10x.2
    Old Compression (Red Piston)
    12x.2
    12x.15

    New Rebound
    15x.15
    14x.15
    12x.15
    12x.15
    10x.2
    New Compression (Yellow Piston)
    15x.1
    16x.1
    14x.1
    11x.1

    Kept Stock ipa stack although wish I could have replaced one of the 20 with pair of 14x.1 but did not have any.
    20x.2(3)
    14x.1(2)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Your velocity stack is going to be very stiff. I'll be curious how you like it in the trail, it may be a little harsh.

    The easiest way to check preload stack float is to use a .1mm thick shim as a feeler gauge. basically, you try pushing it between the preload stack and piston on a assembled damper. If there is too much float, it will slide in with little effort. If there is too much preload, it will be hard to slide under the shims.

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    Thanks for the tip on using a feeler.

    Was waffling on adding that second 14mm speed shim but figured since I was running IPA one click from closed to get hsc I wanted, that I have plenty of adjustment downward regardless, only trail test will tell though.

    interesting thought, I'm running cushcore f+r. I wonder if the lower shaft speed due to lower psi/tire dampening let's you get away with running more HSC than you would otherwise. 24psi on rear instead of 28 otherwise and am 150lbs rider. Also run my mattoc -2 clicks from closed on HSC. Hmm

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Thanks for the tip on using a feeler.

    Was waffling on adding that second 14mm speed shim but figured since I was running IPA one click from closed to get hsc I wanted, that I have plenty of adjustment downward regardless, only trail test will tell though.

    interesting thought, I'm running cushcore f+r. I wonder if the lower shaft speed due to lower psi/tire dampening let's you get away with running more HSC than you would otherwise. 24psi on rear instead of 28 otherwise and am 150lbs rider. Also run my mattoc -2 clicks from closed on HSC. Hmm

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    I'm similar weight (160 in gear) and flip flop between -2 and -3 on my mattoc hsc depending on the trail. I'm surprised how many people run full open.

    You may like the 14mm shim. I never ran more than 2 16mm shims in the velocity stack and found that harsh, but different trails and rider preference makes all that subjective. Make sure to write what you think, I'm really curious.

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    Big thanks to Mullen for putting this guide together. Here are some thoughts on a recent tune:

    For some context this shock is on a 2017 Smuggler, leverage rate = 2.3 with a pretty linear rate curve. I'm running the standard can at 105 psi and quite a lot of volume reduction. My mcleod has the red piston, and the stock shim configuration is the same posted earlier by boostinmini. Running 350 psi in the IFP.

    Rebound:
    Running the standard can with the volume reduced gives the stock rebound some trouble. Feels like too much LSR / not enough HSR control. I ran the adjuster such that I could control the rebound out of deep travel, but got some wallow / packing up from the LSR being slow. I ended up compensating by running the compression in IPA 2/3 to help keep the shock up in its travel which was a decent compromise. I tried the stack suggested by Mullen:

    piston
    8x15x0.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x0.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x0.2
    Bolt / Check valve

    This is a seriously huge upgrade. I was able to run IPA 1 without wallowing through fast chatter and slower chuck. The rear of the bike was very composed through some familiar rock gardens and provided noticeably more grip. It feels like it might benefit from a touch more HSR damping though im hesitant to mess with it considering how good it is.

    Compression:
    Stock IPA 1 didnt provide enough support, so I was running IPA 2 for normal trail and IPA 3 if I knew I was landing some bigger stuff to flat. I'm not a fan of the LSC knee so much, as it makes smaller chatter fairly harsh until you are really hauling. The goal was to increase HSC damping and run IPA 1. I tried one of the stiffer stacks Mullen suggested:

    shaft stop
    10x14x0.1 (2 shims)
    10x 20x0.2 (3 shims)
    8x11x0.1 (clamp shim)
    8x16x0.1 (velocity shim)
    8x15x0.1 (gap shim)
    Piston

    This stack is definitely an improvement over stock, as it allows me to run IPA 1 which greatly increases the rear ends chunk swallowing ability. IPA 2 seems to provide enough support to land to flat, but still makes small chatter a bit harsh. If possible, I would like to retain the sensitivity but increase the HSC to deal with flat landings in IPA 1. Feels like that might be asking a lot, would be great to hear if anyone has ideas. Perhaps a second velocity shim?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manslug View Post
    Big thanks to Mullen for putting this guide together. Here are some thoughts on a recent tune:

    For some context this shock is on a 2017 Smuggler, leverage rate = 2.3 with a pretty linear rate curve. I'm running the standard can at 105 psi and quite a lot of volume reduction. My mcleod has the red piston, and the stock shim configuration is the same posted earlier by boostinmini. Running 350 psi in the IFP.

    Rebound:
    Running the standard can with the volume reduced gives the stock rebound some trouble. Feels like too much LSR / not enough HSR control. I ran the adjuster such that I could control the rebound out of deep travel, but got some wallow / packing up from the LSR being slow. I ended up compensating by running the compression in IPA 2/3 to help keep the shock up in its travel which was a decent compromise. I tried the stack suggested by Mullen:

    piston
    8x15x0.15 (2 shims)
    8x12x0.15 (2 shims)
    8x10x0.2
    Bolt / Check valve

    This is a seriously huge upgrade. I was able to run IPA 1 without wallowing through fast chatter and slower chuck. The rear of the bike was very composed through some familiar rock gardens and provided noticeably more grip. It feels like it might benefit from a touch more HSR damping though im hesitant to mess with it considering how good it is.

    Compression:
    Stock IPA 1 didnt provide enough support, so I was running IPA 2 for normal trail and IPA 3 if I knew I was landing some bigger stuff to flat. I'm not a fan of the LSC knee so much, as it makes smaller chatter fairly harsh until you are really hauling. The goal was to increase HSC damping and run IPA 1. I tried one of the stiffer stacks Mullen suggested:

    shaft stop
    10x14x0.1 (2 shims)
    10x 20x0.2 (3 shims)
    8x11x0.1 (clamp shim)
    8x16x0.1 (velocity shim)
    8x15x0.1 (gap shim)
    Piston

    This stack is definitely an improvement over stock, as it allows me to run IPA 1 which greatly increases the rear ends chunk swallowing ability. IPA 2 seems to provide enough support to land to flat, but still makes small chatter a bit harsh. If possible, I would like to retain the sensitivity but increase the HSC to deal with flat landings in IPA 1. Feels like that might be asking a lot, would be great to hear if anyone has ideas. Perhaps a second velocity shim?
    Awesome, glad its working out for you.

    Before opening up the shock to change tunes again, try adjusting the IPA adjusters stop screw. You can use it to dial in just a little extra support in IPA 1. It basically makes it IPA 1.5

    If that doesn't work, you can add a 2nd velocity shim or increase the velocity stack clamp shim to a 12. (11.5 would be better but its not easy to get)

    There is a third option. As well. You can remove a 10x20x.2 and add 2 10x14x.1s in its place. This will cause you to loose some stiffness from the lockout, but make the adjustment range a little smaller making IPA 2-3 more usable. You have to be careful to keep the spacing the same though or you can have stack float in IPA 1 which can cause knock and a few other issues.

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    Have initial impressions but more to come later.

    Overall it's been a huge improvement! Smiling while riding because so happy with how it was feeling.

    Starting with Rebound, It's better than before but it does feel slightly fast, I am running LSC slower than feels right. Interestingly enough even though it feels slow, it doesn't act slow, in other words no packing down and returns nicely from deep in the stroke. Do think it'd feel better with the 2 15 shims instead of the 15/14 I used but it's all I had so will leave it like that. more ride time as well could help as well.

    The compression stack lets me run ipa 1 instead of ipa 3 like I was before like I expected. I would call it a sporty/taut ride which, I think personal rider preference come into play, I love. I would not call it harsh but could see how some might. The support/composure when things got fast/rough was great, and traction seemed better too (maybe yellow piston helps with this as well).

    I bottom out comfortably with this setup. I do think I am relying a little bit on damping for bottom out support since I am currently using the Mid Volume King Can. Could see going to a smaller can and lighter damping working out well for others as well. I have a big preference for mid stroke support though and this setup gets me there.

    A few other things I noticed. Bike generated speed a lot better which reflected on Strava and the biggest surprise was how much better it made the front suspension feel.

    Stack posted again for reference.
    New Rebound
    15x.15
    14x.15
    12x.15
    12x.15
    10x.2
    New Compression (Yellow Piston)
    15x.1
    16x.1
    14x.1
    11x.1

  96. #96
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    hi, i am running the shock open the whole time and would prefer to do so but would like to add a bit of a platform. something like it is shown on 1st graph (green) but even a bit more platform

    is it possible to sort of tune the curve for open position to what i drew in
    red.

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-1-more-platform-no-extra-shims-needed.jpg

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavo View Post
    hi, i am running the shock open the whole time and would prefer to do so but would like to add a bit of a platform. something like it is shown on 1st graph (green) but even a bit more platform

    is it possible to sort of tune the curve for open position to what i drew in
    red.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Its impossible to tell you exactly how to achieve what you are looking for without a lot test time on the Dyno. Off the top of my head, the best way to achieve it would be to lighten the 10mm ID IPA stack. This would cause you to lose the lock out of position 4, but close the gap between the other positions making them more useful. So my suggestion we to replace one or two of the 10x20x.2 shims with 10x14x.1 shims.

    If you do this, you will need the 10x14x.1 shims to equal the thickness of the removed 10x20x.1 shims to keep the spacing the same. For example, if you remove 2 of the .2mm thick shims, you would have to add 4 of the 14x.1 shims in its place to keep proper spacing. Then you can run in IPA 2 or 3 without it being as harsh.

    The other thing you could try is adding a 8x20x.1 shim to the top of the velocity stack. (Under the velocity clamp shim). This would leave a preloaded shim at all times. You would need to remove a 10x14x.1 to keep proper spacing if you try this method as well.

    Hope that helps

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Its impossible to tell you exactly how to achieve what you are looking for without a lot test time on the Dyno. Off the top of my head, the best way to achieve it would be to lighten the 10mm ID IPA stack. This would cause you to lose the lock out of position 4, but close the gap between the other positions making them more useful. So my suggestion we to replace one or two of the 10x20x.2 shims with 10x14x.1 shims.

    If you do this, you will need the 10x14x.1 shims to equal the thickness of the removed 10x20x.1 shims to keep the spacing the same. For example, if you remove 2 of the .2mm thick shims, you would have to add 4 of the 14x.1 shims in its place to keep proper spacing. Then you can run in IPA 2 or 3 without it being as harsh.

    The other thing you could try is adding a 8x20x.1 shim to the top of the velocity stack. (Under the velocity clamp shim). This would leave a preloaded shim at all times. You would need to remove a 10x14x.1 to keep proper spacing if you try this method as well.

    Hope that helps
    thanks a lot
    on the 1st option you mention, when i start replacing 10x20 IPA stack shims with 10x14 ones, do i put smaller diameter ones on the top? but i think i still want some sort of firm platform for fire roads and asphalt if needed.

    i assume your 2nd suggestion would not lose lockout? and i would run this in open?

    i think, i will just try green graph modification first, as all it takes is removing gap shim, and it should give me a bit of a platform in open, righ?

    also this yellow mod below is sort of what i am looking for too? in ipa3 position it has even more platform (about half as stock) but the curve seem to be higher. which might be fine

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-comp-stack-6-preffered-1st.jpg

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavo View Post
    thanks a lot
    on the 1st option you mention, when i start replacing 10x20 IPA stack shims with 10x14 ones, do i put smaller diameter ones on the top? but i think i still want some sort of firm platform for fire roads and asphalt if needed.

    i assume your 2nd suggestion would not lose lockout? and i would run this in open?

    i think, i will just try green graph modification first, as all it takes is removing gap shim, and it should give me a bit of a platform in open, righ?

    also this yellow mod below is sort of what i am looking for too? in ipa3 position it has even more platform (about half as stock) but the curve seem to be higher. which might be fine

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yes, the 14mm shims that replace the 20s will go at the top of the stack, functioning as clamp shims/ spacers

    The IPA adjuster only affects the 10mm preload stack. Because of this, the platform levels will stay the same regardless of what you do with the velocity (8mm) shim stack. The velocity stack will control mid and high speed damping, mainly in positions 1-2. The pics I posted came out a little blurry, so its hard to tell, but a few of the graphs run a different scale, so they look slightly different when it comes to platform levels.

    The 2nd suggestion would not lose the lock out.

  100. #100
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    Need some advice on tuning. I have been running Manitou Mcleod shocks on 3 different bikes, love this shock. These shocks were from Bike24 and were dated Aug. 2017, so I assume old tune, red piston. I ordered a new frame and all was fine until the builder decided to update the frame to the newer metric shock and put a new 210 x 55 Manitou Mcleod on there. Now I am wondering what the tune will be on this newer shock and how it will compare to the older models I have. I am 115 lbs ready to ride (maybe 120 lbs with lunch in camelback) and I will most likely be using a king can (as this frame performs well with coil). On this thread I saw that the older tunes had a 12mm gap shim and no velocity shim, while the new shocks have a 14mm gap, 16 velocity shim. This seems to me that the newer shocks will have much more damping compared to the older shocks I really like. Suggestions on what you would do with the new shock. Will it need softening up, if so? What about just opening up the old shock and moving the shim stack over to the new shock? Thanks for your help.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by JillRide45 View Post
    Need some advice on tuning. I have been running Manitou Mcleod shocks on 3 different bikes, love this shock. These shocks were from Bike24 and were dated Aug. 2017, so I assume old tune, red piston. I ordered a new frame and all was fine until the builder decided to update the frame to the newer metric shock and put a new 210 x 55 Manitou Mcleod on there. Now I am wondering what the tune will be on this newer shock and how it will compare to the older models I have. I am 115 lbs ready to ride (maybe 120 lbs with lunch in camelback) and I will most likely be using a king can (as this frame performs well with coil). On this thread I saw that the older tunes had a 12mm gap shim and no velocity shim, while the new shocks have a 14mm gap, 16 velocity shim. This seems to me that the newer shocks will have much more damping compared to the older shocks I really like. Suggestions on what you would do with the new shock. Will it need softening up, if so? What about just opening up the old shock and moving the shim stack over to the new shock? Thanks for your help.
    Awesome that you are loving the McLeod.

    Is the frame coming with McLeod from the manufacturer or is it a aftermarket shock you are buying?

    Obviously, before you open it up to switch shims around, give it a few rides to see if you like it. You are a little heavier than my wife, but my wife has a tune with a larger gap shim than the old stock tune and love it. You may get along well with it.

    Out side of tune, the new metric shocks have a little more room in them which lets them have a few upgrades. They get the new flexible IFP that was introduced with the Mara which helps with sensitivity, and a slightly larger negative spring. If the shock is aftermarket, it should come with the gold bleed piston as well, which will help. All those will help with the sensitivity.

    If you do run into compression tune issues, we can get your sorted on a better tune.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Awesome that you are loving the McLeod.

    Is the frame coming with McLeod from the manufacturer or is it a aftermarket shock you are buying?

    Obviously, before you open it up to switch shims around, give it a few rides to see if you like it. You are a little heavier than my wife, but my wife has a tune with a larger gap shim than the old stock tune and love it. You may get along well with it.

    Out side of tune, the new metric shocks have a little more room in them which lets them have a few upgrades. They get the new flexible IFP that was introduced with the Mara which helps with sensitivity, and a slightly larger negative spring. If the shock is aftermarket, it should come with the gold bleed piston as well, which will help. All those will help with the sensitivity.

    If you do run into compression tune issues, we can get your sorted on a better tune.
    Thanks, I believe it is an aftermarket shock as the frame normally does not come with the Manitou shock. They actually bought it due to a mix up and the switch to metric. They told me to purchase the 200 x 50 shock which I did, but by the time they made the frame they had switched to metric so they took care of getting the shock.

    I will give it a try and see what I think. I did email Manitou about the proper King Can to buy.
    Thanks

  103. #103
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    I can't read most of the graphs in the first post. The pictures are too small and when I download them and zoom in it's blurry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Awesome that you are loving the McLeod.

    Is the frame coming with McLeod from the manufacturer or is it a aftermarket shock you are buying?

    Obviously, before you open it up to switch shims around, give it a few rides to see if you like it. You are a little heavier than my wife, but my wife has a tune with a larger gap shim than the old stock tune and love it. You may get along well with it.

    Out side of tune, the new metric shocks have a little more room in them which lets them have a few upgrades. They get the new flexible IFP that was introduced with the Mara which helps with sensitivity, and a slightly larger negative spring. If the shock is aftermarket, it should come with the gold bleed piston as well, which will help. All those will help with the sensitivity.

    If you do run into compression tune issues, we can get your sorted on a better tune.
    Hmm. Was thinking of the McLeod in 190x45 for a Ripley. Saw that the 190x50 is super cheap, can add spacer. But it seems like the metric ones are improved so it's worth the extra cost.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Hmm. Was thinking of the McLeod in 190x45 for a Ripley. Saw that the 190x50 is super cheap, can add spacer. But it seems like the metric ones are improved so it's worth the extra cost.
    But make sure to check what the build date is. My 190X45 Mcleod was ordered this summer but had a build date of Oct 2018. Mullen, do you know when these other changes were incorporated?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    But make sure to check what the build date is. My 190X45 Mcleod was ordered this summer but had a build date of Oct 2018. Mullen, do you know when these other changes were incorporated?
    I looked into it. It turns out that I miss spoke. These changes have not taken effect yet. They will be part of a future update. Oops.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I can't read most of the graphs in the first post. The pictures are too small and when I download them and zoom in it's blurry.
    Sorry. Been meaning to fix that, but haven't had time. I have a knee surgery coming up, that should give me enough downtime to get a better version out.

  107. #107
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    I have looked into changing my shim stack and to the yellow piston but itís above my skill level. Is there any place or anyone that I can send my McLeod to? I have a vpp intense spider 275 and looking for better small bump compliance.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I looked into it. It turns out that I miss spoke. These changes have not taken effect yet. They will be part of a future update. Oops.




    Sorry. Been meaning to fix that, but haven't had time. I have a knee surgery coming up, that should give me enough downtime to get a better version out.
    You gotta let us know when they update it then!!!

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by nashwillis View Post
    I have looked into changing my shim stack and to the yellow piston but itís above my skill level. Is there any place or anyone that I can send my McLeod to? I have a vpp intense spider 275 and looking for better small bump compliance.
    Have you seen the videos? Really easy to take it apart. If you have, and you're still uncomfortable, yeah maybe send it somewhere. Dirtlabs in CO and Garageworks in CA are the listed service centers.

    Garage Works is local to me but man, they have an up and down reputation.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by nashwillis View Post
    I have looked into changing my shim stack and to the yellow piston but itís above my skill level. Is there any place or anyone that I can send my McLeod to? I have a vpp intense spider 275 and looking for better small bump compliance.
    The Intense vpp design is just not the greatest with small bump. That said, improvements can be made.

    I thought about trying to buy some parts and do Manitou rebuilds and tuning in limited quantity on the side. I never pulled the trigger because I question how much demand there would be. Manitou's customer base tends to lean towards the home service/tuning type.

    I believe Manitou is doing in house service now, so you can try there. Smithtech is a good option too, depending on your location. I'm not sure what his location rules are for where he accepts orders from.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    You gotta let us know when they update it then!!!
    It will be obvious when happens

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    Finally opened up my McLeod. It was quite easy despite a lot of apprehension. Although, when installing the yellow piston back into the body the little bleed hole becomes a spout, something the Youtube videos don't warn you about!



    I don't think my calipers are terribly accurate so I don't get accurate thickness numbers on the .1/.15/.2 shims. But a couple differences from my stack and the stock one Mullen posted in the original post.

    10mm stack: Appears the same. I thought the 20mm dia shims were .1, but they could be .2mm. They felt thicker than the really thin shims. I left this alone.

    8mm stack: Only two shims, 8mm x 12mm x .1? I changed this to the updated stack. Again, not sure my cheap calipers got the thickness right I hope so. I did measure all 3 together and it was around .3mm

    EDIT: Looks like the first shim is 8x11x.1, and second is 8x12x.1. Which matches the earlier information about there not being a velocity shim. May be a firmer tune which is fine. I'm light and don't leave the air more than a couple feet, but I do like to ride fast over So Cal baby head sized embedded sharp rocks (and loose ones). I'll see how it rides

    Rebound: 8x16x.1. 8x10x.1. 8x11x1. I should have reviewed the original post before reassembling so I could update the stack. Darnit. Oh well. Not even sure I have the right shims yet anyway so I'll measure. I'll update it when I reopen it.

    Also, in the photos above, at the bottom of this stack is that odd looking partial 8 clip. Mine didn't have that.

    mullen you also mentioned something about the rebound check valve stack? What is that exactly? I just see the shims, plus the bolt holding it together. Not much else.



    Going to take it out for a spin this week. Anyway, no special tool needed except the IFP tool. So easy to do.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-img_7580.jpg  

    Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-img_7581.jpg  


  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Finally opened up my McLeod. It was quite easy despite a lot of apprehension. Although, when installing the yellow piston back into the body the little bleed hole becomes a spout, something the Youtube videos don't warn you about!



    I don't think my calipers are terribly accurate so I don't get accurate thickness numbers on the .1/.15/.2 shims. But a couple differences from my stack and the stock one Mullen posted in the original post.

    10mm stack: Appears the same. I thought the 20mm dia shims were .1, but they could be .2mm. They felt thicker than the really thin shims. I left this alone.

    8mm stack: Only two shims, 8mm x 12mm x .1? I changed this to the updated stack. Again, not sure my cheap calipers got the thickness right I hope so. I did measure all 3 together and it was around .3mm

    Rebound: 8x16x.1. 8x10x.1. 8x11x1. I should have reviewed the OP before reassembling so I could update the stack. Darnit. Oh well. Not even sure I have the right shims yet anyway so I'll measure. I'll update it when I reopen it.

    Also, in the photos above, at the bottom of this stack is that odd looking partial 8 clip. Mine didn't have that.

    mullen you also mentioned something about the rebound check valve stack? What is that exactly? I just see the shims, plus the bolt holding it together. Not much else.



    Going to take it out for a spin this week. Anyway, no special tool needed except the IFP tool. So easy to do.
    Its not uncommon to get readings slightly off on calipers, but you should be able to distinguish between shims. My calipers are usually .02 under, so they read .08 for a .1, .13 for a .15, and .18 for a .2.

    Yours must be significantly off through. Off the top of my head, the washer right before the piston bolt is .5mm thick.

    Anyway, the stacks you found are the stock stacks until recently. Sounds like you picked a good compression stack.
    On the rebound side, ditching the 16mm shim for a 15mm helps performance. The 16mm slightly covers the compression flow ports, so oil can flow better with a 15mm.

    My favorite rebound stack is

    15x.15(2 shims)
    12x.15(2 shims)
    10x.2 clamp shim

    Highly suggest using this rebound stack (everybody). It has a much better relationship between high and low speed rebound speeds, and in my opinion, makes a much larger impact on performance than switching compression stacks.

    The rebound check plate is attached to the piston bolt. Its intact in your pictures. No need to pull it apart

  113. #113
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    That's what I get for getting cheap calipers. Any recommendations on good ones? Don't need micron level accuracy, just good enough for this.

    Once I get better calipers I'll go ahead and switch the rebound stack, as mine don't even have two decimal points. Lol so I won't know what .15 is

  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    That's what I get for getting cheap calipers. Any recommendations on good ones? Don't need micron level accuracy, just good enough for this.

    Once I get better calipers I'll go ahead and switch the rebound stack, as mine don't even have two decimal points. Lol so I won't know what .15 is
    A cheap pair from harbor freight should be good enough.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Finally opened up my McLeod. It was quite easy despite a lot of apprehension. Although, when installing the yellow piston back into the body the little bleed hole becomes a spout, something the Youtube videos don't warn you about!

    I don't think my calipers are terribly accurate so I don't get accurate thickness numbers on the .1/.15/.2 shims. But a couple differences from my stack and the stock one Mullen posted in the original post.

    10mm stack: Appears the same. I thought the 20mm dia shims were .1, but they could be .2mm. They felt thicker than the really thin shims. I left this alone.

    8mm stack: Only two shims, 8mm x 12mm x .1? I changed this to the updated stack. Again, not sure my cheap calipers got the thickness right I hope so. I did measure all 3 together and it was around .3mm

    EDIT: Looks like the first shim is 8x11x.1, and second is 8x12x.1. Which matches the earlier information about there not being a velocity shim. May be a firmer tune which is fine. I'm light and don't leave the air more than a couple feet, but I do like to ride fast over So Cal baby head sized embedded sharp rocks (and loose ones). I'll see how it rides

    Rebound: 8x16x.1. 8x10x.1. 8x11x1. I should have reviewed the original post before reassembling so I could update the stack. Darnit. Oh well. Not even sure I have the right shims yet anyway so I'll measure. I'll update it when I reopen it.

    Also, in the photos above, at the bottom of this stack is that odd looking partial 8 clip. Mine didn't have that.

    mullen you also mentioned something about the rebound check valve stack? What is that exactly? I just see the shims, plus the bolt holding it together. Not much else.

    Going to take it out for a spin this week. Anyway, no special tool needed except the IFP tool. So easy to do.
    What was the build date on your shock?

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by kan3 View Post
    What was the build date on your shock?
    9/4/2017.

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    Thanks mullen for this awesome thread. I bought a used McLeod for my Hightower V1 and I'm looking forward to tinkering with it. Just finished tuning shim stacks on my Pike, it's fun stuff. However, I can't seem to find the IFP tool in stock anywhere, does anyone know where I could buy one for a reasonable price?

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadath View Post
    Thanks mullen for this awesome thread. I bought a used McLeod for my Hightower V1 and I'm looking forward to tinkering with it. Just finished tuning shim stacks on my Pike, it's fun stuff. However, I can't seem to find the IFP tool in stock anywhere, does anyone know where I could buy one for a reasonable price?
    Last time I looked into this, Manitou had a bunch of them in the warehouse. Need to try to get them on the web store. My suggestion would be to contact [email protected] They should be able to sell you one directly.

    If that falls through, you can get one from Dougal. Don't worry about the price, its listed in NZ currency and includes a significant tax that you won't have to pay l. He ships world wide

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/ifp-val...n-manitou.html

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadath View Post
    Thanks mullen for this awesome thread. I bought a used McLeod for my Hightower V1 and I'm looking forward to tinkering with it. Just finished tuning shim stacks on my Pike, it's fun stuff. However, I can't seem to find the IFP tool in stock anywhere, does anyone know where I could buy one for a reasonable price?
    IFP tool added to the Hayes store

    https://shop.hayesperformance.com/pr...5347b2c3&_ss=r

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    Thanks. That Hayes store doesn't ship to Canada unfortunately. Zak from Manitou service will try to get one to sell to me directly but they don't currently have stock in Canada. So far great service from Zac.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadath View Post
    Thanks. That Hayes store doesn't ship to Canada unfortunately. Zak from Manitou service will try to get one to sell to me directly but they don't currently have stock in Canada. So far great service from Zac.
    Zac is great. They are in stock in the Hayes warehouse, so he should have no problem getting one for you, it just adds an extra step.

    I'm glad you posted about this anyway, it reminded me to push them to add it to the Hayes store.

    For those not in the United States, the tool part number is 83-2694. A local distributor should be able to order you one

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The horizontal set screw in the shock head sets the zero position of the IPA lever. Which sets the starting point of the shim preload. It should be pretty much zero.
    If I unscrew the set screw a little, it seems to reveal a #0 position for the IPA knob. Would that position actually have less preload than position #1, or is the lowest spot of the cam lined up with the #1 position?

    I've found the #1 position is plenty supportive, so I'd be interested in trying less LSC - unlocking a #0 position seems like an easier option than reshimming, since I don't feel the need to alter other aspects of the shock's performance. Has anyone tried this, will the shims completely unload, making the shock explode?
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  123. #123
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    Hi,

    I'm looking to service the McLeod for the first time. While I'm there I was thinking of making some changes to tune, just thought I might as well run it past you guys.

    I ride longish steep rocky descents, I've previously used a piggy back shocks and I do get the feeling that the McLeod speeds up towards the bottom of a descent (and slows when its really cold outside!). I was planning on changing the damper oil to Silkolene RSF 2.5 13.6cSt with a VI of 464. I'm hoping this will improve the change in damping related to temperature, but I'm a bit worried the cSt is a little low...

    10mm - I rarely use the 3rd IPA setting and never use the 4th, so was planning to change one of the 10x20x0.2 shims to 2 10x14x0.1.

    8mm - I'm assuming the stock stack will be 8x11x0.1 and 8x12x0.1 as mentioned earlier in this thread? Planning to change to:
    8x11x0.1
    8x16x0.1
    8x14x0.1

    Rebound - change to the stack suggested by mullen119
    8x15x0.15 (2)
    8x12x0.15 (2)
    8x10x0.2

    I'm aware that its a lot of changes in one go, but I think I'd rather make lots of changes to where I think they need to be (from reading other people experiences and suggestions) and then make single changes to improve from there if required.

    Do these changes look ok?

    edit - Is it possible to buy a yellow piston? I'm in the UK and the Manitou support isn't the best. A yellow piston would suit my kind of riding from what I read on the forum.

    Thanks

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by neb View Post
    Hi,

    I'm looking to service the McLeod for the first time. While I'm there I was thinking of making some changes to tune, just thought I might as well run it past you guys.

    I ride longish steep rocky descents, I've previously used a piggy back shocks and I do get the feeling that the McLeod speeds up towards the bottom of a descent (and slows when its really cold outside!). I was planning on changing the damper oil to Silkolene RSF 2.5 13.6cSt with a VI of 464. I'm hoping this will improve the change in damping related to temperature, but I'm a bit worried the cSt is a little low...

    10mm - I rarely use the 3rd IPA setting and never use the 4th, so was planning to change one of the 10x20x0.2 shims to 2 10x14x0.1.

    8mm - I'm assuming the stock stack will be 8x11x0.1 and 8x12x0.1 as mentioned earlier in this thread? Planning to change to:
    8x11x0.1
    8x16x0.1
    8x14x0.1

    Rebound - change to the stack suggested by mullen119
    8x15x0.15 (2)
    8x12x0.15 (2)
    8x10x0.2

    I'm aware that its a lot of changes in one go, but I think I'd rather make lots of changes to where I think they need to be (from reading other people experiences and suggestions) and then make single changes to improve from there if required.

    Do these changes look ok?

    edit - Is it possible to buy a yellow piston? I'm in the UK and the Manitou support isn't the best. A yellow piston would suit my kind of riding from what I read on the forum.

    Thanks
    I'm not a fan of silkolene oils personally. I have used redline oils when I want a high VI with good success. Redline 5wt is [email protected] with a VI of 519

    That said, some of the what you are feeling on long decents is not from oil. The IFP volume is small on some imperial shock sizes and the heat from long decents raises IFP pressure enough to make the spring more progressive. I tend to crack my bleed screw 3 times (filling the groove on the seal head each time to keep track of how much oil comes out to make it consistent each time). This makes IFP volume as large as possible to help prevent heat issues. If you do this and use a higher vi oil, you should see a good improvement.

    I would suggest changing the 8x11x.1 to a 8x14x.1. This will add low speed stability without adding harshness of completely covering the ports.

    You can absolutely replace a 10x20x.2 with 2 10x14x.1s. I actually run :

    10x20x.2
    10x20x.15
    10x14x.1 (4)

    You can run any stack you want, you just want to keep the overall thickness the same unless you have the ability to adjust the eyelet properly. If you don't adjust the eyelet or keep the stack the same thickness, you will end up with a knock from shim float when full open or preload on the stack when full open. I didn't really cover this concept that much when I was making this thread because I didn't want to confuse people with too much information. It's very important that there is no float in the 10mm stack when the IPA adjuster is full open.

    I'm not sure what the European distributors have for gold pistons available. You can ask them and see if they have them and can sell you one. They are abundant at this point, it's just whether or not the local distributors actually have one in stock. Dougal may have one in stock or be able to order one for you as well. He ships worldwide

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    I tend to crack my bleed screw 3 times (filling the groove on the seal head each time to keep track of how much oil comes out to make it consistent each time). This makes IFP volume as large as possible to help prevent heat issues. If you do this and use a higher vi oil, you should see a good improvement
    Do you mean after pressurising the IFP a little? Basically increasing IFP volume at the expense of oil volume? I'd never thought of that, I'd just assumed moar oil would be better!

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    I would suggest changing the 8x11x.1 to a 8x14x.1. This will add low speed stability without adding harshness of completely covering the ports.
    Are you suggesting changing the stock setup to
    8x14x.1
    8x12x.1
    or changing my suggested stack to
    8x14x.1
    8x16x.1
    8x14x.1

    Thanks for the advice, some really good tips there. I'm in no rush, just lining things up for when (hopefully!) the weather improves and the sun comes out.

    Thanks again

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by neb View Post
    Do you mean after pressurising the IFP a little? Basically increasing IFP volume at the expense of oil volume? I'd never thought of that, I'd just assumed moar oil would be better!



    Are you suggesting changing the stock setup to
    8x14x.1
    8x12x.1
    or changing my suggested stack to
    8x14x.1
    8x16x.1
    8x14x.1

    Thanks for the advice, some really good tips there. I'm in no rush, just lining things up for when (hopefully!) the weather improves and the sun comes out.

    Thanks again

    The way Manitou sets IFP depth, you push the IFP all the way to the bottom. Assemble damper. Remove bleed screw and slowly compress damper completely to remove air bubbles (hold at 45 degree angle with bleed port at highest point). Install bleed screw and charge IFP to 100psi. At this point, the shock will fully extend from the IFP pressure, but the IFP will bottom out at full compression. You crack the bleed screw to raise the IFP slightly to allow the IFP to raise a little bit so it doesn't bottom. I personally go a little further and raise it higher to gain volume (at the expense of a small amount of oil) to make the IFP spring less progressive. The small amount of oil will make no difference in heat (it's around 1ml per crack of the bleed screw from memory) but the gain in volume makes helps a lot with the IFP pressures rising from heat(causing a more progressive spring that changes where you would want rebound is set)

    This is actually a problem with all inline shocks, but since Manitou sets the IFP so close to bottom on the Mcleods, it can be easily helped at home. It's also less of a problem for those using king cans since the main spring is less progressive, so the change in overall spring rate from the IFP is smaller.

    The switch my suggested rebound stack will help with this as well. It has more HSR in relationship to the same amount of LSR.

    As for compression stack, I was actually suggesting the same stack as you mentioned. I just read it wrong, as if the piston would be at the top

    Piston.
    8x14x.1
    8x16x.1
    8x11x 1
    10mm stack of your choice

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    Hi everyone.
    Does anyone know if thereís a solution to a stripped thread on the end of the damper shaft, other than buying a new one?
    I think I might have over tightened the piston nut after tuning my shimstack...
    Damn it!

  128. #128
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    So I tried unscrewing the IPA limit set screw, and my shock didn't explode or exhibit any sign that the shims were rattling around. The lever's end position was more like #0.6 than a full click back from #1, and frankly I didn't notice a difference in ride feel from the #1 position.

    I think I'm going to try rebuilding with a 12mm gap shim. I have this shock on a 2016 (non-Metric) Transition Patrol and weigh about 200lbs - any insights as to whether this is a good move would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Tim-ti; 02-24-2020 at 02:14 PM.
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  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim-ti View Post
    So I tried unscrewing the IPA limit set screw, and my shock didn't explode or exhibit any sign that the shims were rattling around. The lever's end position was more like #0.6 than a full click back from #1, and frankly I didn't notice a difference in ride feel from the #1 position.

    I think I'm going to try rebuilding with a 12mm gap shim. I have this shock on a 2016 (non-Metric) Transition Patrol and weigh about 200lbs - any insights as to whether this is a good move would be greatly appreciated.
    There would be no difference in feel if you are backing the IPA set screw out. IPA position 1 should have no shim float hands as close to no preload as you can get. Backing the screw out can cause shim float (shims not making a seal with the piston lip causing oil to back flow. This can cause a knock as the shims slam shut on the transition to the rebound stroke)

    At a certain point, backing the set screw out will no longer make any change at all as it is no longer contacting the shaft that moves the IPA cam. The set screw is more meant to be turned in to fine-tune the IPA starting point at no float. Either way, completely backing out the screw is not going to make the shot perform better, but rather worse. The ideal point at which to leave the set screw is when it keeps the IPA lever at a 90į angle to the shock. To prevent knock some people have to turn it in a little farther than a 90į angle

  130. #130
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    The set screw felt looser when I positioned it at less than #0.6, which is why I went no further. It's good to know my decision on that was correct, and that my butt-dyno was properly calibrated in feeling no difference to the ride.

    Thank you for all the great information in these threads @mullen119, it's very helpful.
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  131. #131
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    Got the Hayes care package, shims and yellow piston. Opened it up yesterday, my 2019 stock McLeod only had 10x14x.1x2, 10x20x.2x3 and 8x16x.1x1 for the comp stack; then red piston, and on the rebound stack it had the 8x12x.15x2 plus the washer. So that's the reason it was knocking, also had signs of cavitation, bubbled foam/air from the bleed screw for a full minute after removing the ifp valve core.

  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by excesspeople View Post
    Got the Hayes care package, shims and yellow piston. Opened it up yesterday, my 2019 stock McLeod only had 10x14x.1x2, 10x20x.2x3 and 8x16x.1x1 for the comp stack; then red piston, and on the rebound stack it had the 8x12x.15x2 plus the washer. So that's the reason it was knocking, also had signs of cavitation, bubbled foam/air from the bleed screw for a full minute after removing the ifp valve core.
    It only had 8x12x.15 shims on the rebound stack?

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    It only had 8x12x.15 shims on the rebound stack?
    Yeah. The 16mm on the comp stack was actually a 16x.2, I miss spoke.Manitou McLeod Shim Tuning Guide-screenshot_2020-03-06-08-20-53.jpg

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    What's an approximate McLeod oil volume? Mine specifically is a Metric 190x45, but just looking for approximation. I watched the Manitou bleed video and see that you just fill it to the top during assembly. I want to make sure I have enough oil on hand for a few bleeds.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by kartracer View Post
    What's an approximate McLeod oil volume? Mine specifically is a Metric 190x45, but just looking for approximation. I watched the Manitou bleed video and see that you just fill it to the top during assembly. I want to make sure I have enough oil on hand for a few bleeds.
    30cc.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  136. #136
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    I have a metric Mcleod on a Specialized Levo SL. The compression stack
    Piston
    8 x 14 x .1
    8 x 16 x .1
    8 x 11 x .1
    10mm stack (stock)

    I would like to soften the velocity damping but keep as much platform as possible in IPA 4 position. On the trail I ride in position 1 or 2, but I have to ride the road to get to the trails so I need some platform. Looking over all the graphs I was thinking
    Piston
    8 x 14 x 0.1
    8 x 16 x 0.1
    8 x 10 x 0.1
    8 x 11 x 0.1
    And switch to red piston

    I am not really clear on why the 10 and 11 shims together give a better platform than say just a 10 or 11. Is this correct?

    Also, am I correct in assuming that increasing the compression thickness to 0.4 means I will need to adjust the eyelet/damper shaft (I cannot find this on the videos)?

    Stay safe everyone!

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by JillRide45 View Post
    I have a metric Mcleod on a Specialized Levo SL. The compression stack
    Piston
    8 x 14 x .1
    8 x 16 x .1
    8 x 11 x .1
    10mm stack (stock)

    I would like to soften the velocity damping but keep as much platform as possible in IPA 4 position. On the trail I ride in position 1 or 2, but I have to ride the road to get to the trails so I need some platform. Looking over all the graphs I was thinking
    Piston
    8 x 14 x 0.1
    8 x 16 x 0.1
    8 x 10 x 0.1
    8 x 11 x 0.1
    And switch to red piston

    I am not really clear on why the 10 and 11 shims together give a better platform than say just a 10 or 11. Is this correct?

    Also, am I correct in assuming that increasing the compression thickness to 0.4 means I will need to adjust the eyelet/damper shaft (I cannot find this on the videos)?

    Stay safe everyone!
    The 10mm shim stack that you left stock is what controls the IPA adjustment. If this remains as it currently is the lockout will not change.

    I would suggest not going with an extra shim in the velocity stack. Instead, just switch the 11mm shim out for a 10mm.

    If that doesn't go far enough for you, you can change the 14 mm shim for a 13 which will add a little more free bleed to soften it up.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The 10mm shim stack that you left stock is what controls the IPA adjustment. If this remains as it currently is the lockout will not change.

    I would suggest not going with an extra shim in the velocity stack. Instead, just switch the 11mm shim out for a 10mm.

    If that doesn't go far enough for you, you can change the 14 mm shim for a 13 which will add a little more free bleed to soften it up.
    Thanks for the reply. Would changing one of the 14mm shims on the 10mm stack to a larger shim, say a 16 or 20 result in a firmer platform?

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    Delete
    Last edited by R_Pierce; 04-10-2020 at 01:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JillRide45 View Post
    Thanks for the reply. Would changing one of the 14mm shims on the 10mm stack to a larger shim, say a 16 or 20 result in a firmer platform?
    I miss read your initial post. Changes to the velocity stack will have no affect on lock out stiffness


    You can add ( or subtract) 20mm shims to the IPA (10mm ID) stack to change the IPA adjust range and get a stiffer or softer lock out. You want to make sure to run at least 2 of the 10x14x.1 shims to allow enough room for the shim stack to have proper lift.

    Most of the time, changes to the IPA stack require a eyelet adjustment to keep the stack and zero preload in IPA 1.

    Do you know what your current IPA stack is?

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I miss read your initial post. Changes to the velocity stack will have no affect on lock out stiffness


    You can add ( or subtract) 20mm shims to the IPA (10mm ID) stack to change the IPA adjust range and get a stiffer or softer lock out. You want to make sure to run at least 2 of the 10x14x.1 shims to allow enough room for the shim stack to have proper lift.

    Most of the time, changes to the IPA stack require a eyelet adjustment to keep the stack and zero preload in IPA 1.

    Do you know what your current IPA stack is?
    IPA stack is
    10 x 14 x 0.1
    10 x 14 x 0.1
    10 x 20 x 0.2
    10 x 20 x 0.2
    10 x 20 x 0.2

    I left the 10mm stack as is as I noticed you needed the 14mm to hold the 20mm off.

    I set the compression stack as
    8 x 10 x 0.1
    8 x 16 x 0.1
    8 x 14 x 0.1

    Bouncing around the garage it seems better. We are currently under ďshelter in placeĒ but can ride locally as long as you bike to the trailhead. Luckily I live 3 miles from a large trail network. However it has been raining here like crazy. The rain is really helping social distancing as people in So. California hate the rain. Yesterday I replaced the brakes on my bike and tuned the shock.

    Stay safe and thanks for the help


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by JillRide45 View Post
    IPA stack is
    10 x 14 x 0.1
    10 x 14 x 0.1
    10 x 20 x 0.2
    10 x 20 x 0.2
    10 x 20 x 0.2

    I left the 10mm stack as is as I noticed you needed the 14mm to hold the 20mm off.

    I set the compression stack as
    8 x 10 x 0.1
    8 x 16 x 0.1
    8 x 14 x 0.1

    Bouncing around the garage it seems better. We are currently under ďshelter in placeĒ but can ride locally as long as you bike to the trailhead. Luckily I live 3 miles from a large trail network. However it has been raining here like crazy. The rain is really helping social distancing as people in So. California hate the rain. Yesterday I replaced the brakes on my bike and tuned the shock.

    Stay safe and thanks for the help


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    If you want to make the lock out stiffer, you would need to make the IPA stack stiffer. Your current IPA has a total thickness of .8mm. So the way tuning it works, you would need to keep that stack thickness or adjust the eyelet position to compensate for the change.

    Shim stiffness conversions work like this:

    Shim thick = equivalent number of .1mm shims:
    .10 = 1
    .15 = 3.38
    .20 = 8
    .25 = 15.63
    .30 = 27

    Using this information, we know your stack of 3 20x.2mm shims has a stiffness value of 24. To get a stiffer lock out you would need to get a higher value than 24. To achieve a stiffer lock out without changing overall thickness, you can remove the 20x.2 shims and switch to (2) 20x.25 shims. This would up the stack stiffness to 31 and the stack would have a total thickness of .7 You can then add 14x.1 to regain the .8mm stack thickness we need to not have to adjust eyelet position. You could also add a 20x.1 if you wanted to up the stack stiffness value to 32. That would be the equivalent of adding a 20x.2 shim without adding any thickness to stack.

    We are under a "stay at home" order as well, but its not as as strict as some places. We are allowed to drive to parks as long as we follow social distancing practices when at the park.

    Stay safe!

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    Man I'm confused, my shock is December 2018 production, but I have the old rebound config with only one 16x.2 shim, which is already showing deformation after one year. The more important for me though being the compression stack- the IPA is pretty standard, but there is no other shim stack, just 2 spacer shims... Now- I want to get less high speed compression damping out of the shock, how should I go about that in this case? How am I getting any high speed damping to begin with? lol My only guess is the flow is getting choked by the 16mm rebound shim covering ports.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    Man I'm confused, my shock is December 2018 production, but I have the old rebound config with only one 16x.2 shim, which is already showing deformation after one year. The more important for me though being the compression stack- the IPA is pretty standard, but there is no other shim stack, just 2 spacer shims... Now- I want to get less high speed compression damping out of the shock, how should I go about that in this case? How am I getting any high speed damping to begin with? lol My only guess is the flow is getting choked by the 16mm rebound shim covering ports.
    The new tunes didn't go into production until last year if I remember correctly.

    Why do you think you need less HSC? I ask because the symptoms of being under damped are very similar to being over damped. Mainly harshness and kicking from the wheel over shooting impacts and using more travel than is ideal, causing a harsh feeling as it hits the more progressive part of the spring curve.

    My suggestion is to email tech support and put in a request for a gold piston and some shims. Than run this stack

    10x14x.1 (2)
    10x20x.2 (3)
    8x11x.1
    8x10x.1
    8x16x.1
    Gold piston
    8x15x.15 (2)
    8x12x.15 (2)
    8x10x.2

    If you Don't want a gold piston or can't get one, I would run this for velocity stack

    8x10x.1
    8x15x.1
    8x14x.1
    Red piston

    This will help add some support without excessive high speed damping. You may end up needing an eyelet adjustment. You will know this if you feel a knock after switching compression stacks. This won't happen if you run the stack I listed with the gold piston but can happen with the stack I listed with the red piston as it allows for some backflow through the velocity stack. This can cause the IPA shim stack to slam shut as the shock changes directions, so any float when an IPA1 will cause the noise.

    this does not cause any performance issues but can be an annoying feeling. It can also be fixed by adding a 10x14x.1 to the top of the IPA stack, of taking on of the existing 10x14s and bending it slightly so it adds spring pressure to the IPA stack. I'm still testing whether the bending is a long-term solution, but it definitely works in the short-term.

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    Thanks for advice, hoping I'll at least get a reply from the support, didn't have much luck before from the EU one 🤣
    I concluded that there is too much damping because I feel a lot of resistance at high compression speeds, it's not the spring pushing back- I can tell the difference, I have the spring pretty much dialed now (king can converted to dual air)
    there is no kicking, but the resistance is a bit too high for my liking and makes it impossible to use full travel with the pressure I set. The thing is, I use the same amount of travel pushing hard on flat ground and doing a 1m drop to flat pushing hard instead of absorbing it, that must be the damper, I can hear the oil barely squeezing too, apart from the resistance feeling. It's doesn't ride bad really, but it bothers me that I cannot use full travel (last 3-4mm) with the spring rate I like the most.
    Hoping for a positive reply from the support, as shims are quite hard to get by here, and quite expensive on top of that, I wouldn't want to build the stack from scratch :/ Probably would resort to some bodged shim fabrication from left over abs+ shims (filing the diameter down on a drill :P )

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    Thanks for advice, hoping I'll at least get a reply from the support, didn't have much luck before from the EU one 🤣
    I concluded that there is too much damping because I feel a lot of resistance at high compression speeds, it's not the spring pushing back- I can tell the difference, I have the spring pretty much dialed now (king can converted to dual air)
    there is no kicking, but the resistance is a bit too high for my liking and makes it impossible to use full travel with the pressure I set. The thing is, I use the same amount of travel pushing hard on flat ground and doing a 1m drop to flat pushing hard instead of absorbing it, that must be the damper, I can hear the oil barely squeezing too, apart from the resistance feeling. It's doesn't ride bad really, but it bothers me that I cannot use full travel (last 3-4mm) with the spring rate I like the most.
    Hoping for a positive reply from the support, as shims are quite hard to get by here, and quite expensive on top of that, I wouldn't want to build the stack from scratch :/ Probably would resort to some bodged shim fabrication from left over abs+ shims (filing the diameter down on a drill :P )
    The funny thing is that with your current shim stacks, you will have very little high speed damping in IPA1. It's the weakest compression stack tested and relies only on the IPA stack for damping.

  147. #147
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    I figured that (from tuning abs+), hence the confusion. Either way I feel quite a bit of damping at high shaft speed, even just after the wheel touches ground, where there is almost no spring force, I always rode with one click of IPA for some support when pumping, the only thing I can think of is the combination of the very stiff IPA stack (it gives little speed dependant damping, but still does some either way- I know that from tuning ABS+, stock stack is very similar, but there is a needle bypass and a bit more preload, the trail stack has more speed sensitivity, but with less preload I'm able to use it effectively- closing the bypass partially or even fully with no harshness) and the partially covered ports by 16mm shim (to my eyes anyway it looks like the oil flow is really restricted)
    I'm sure to remove one of the 3 IPA shims, then the lever will have a more usable range (till now click 2 is well stiff enough for climbing- too stiff for riding, 3 doesn't bob when sprinting, 4 full lockout is redundant) for the sake of not changing total lenght, I'll just move the shim behind spacer shims, done this with Monarch with great results, though there were plenty shims inside, so I didn't have to get any other for tuning, I'm surprised with this one shim rebound setup, what with reading how a single shim has really low durability in this position in the abs+ topic, it's quite bent already- probably would break not far from now, surely I'll exchange this one with multiple softer shims, this stiffness was perfect though so would rather preserve it.

  148. #148
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    [QUOTE=piciu256;14683699My only guess is the flow is getting choked by the 16mm rebound shim covering ports.[/QUOTE]

    The 15mm rebound shims made a huge difference to my old McLeod. Especially having a softer HSR circuit too. I never had to stray from the stock compression stack.

    If you can get hold of the shims and don't mind experimenting, I would try the rebound stack Mullen has suggested first with your existing compression. Then after some riding swap to the compression stack he suggested for a comparison.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  149. #149
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    Sure will, just of curiosity- to know if the rebound shim was guilty of my problem, I didn't really feel anything wrong with this stack on the trail.
    now all remains is to wait for a response.

  150. #150
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    In awaiting for the response I put the shock together with one less IPA shim, for testing purposes. I definitely prefer the stock setup over this, guessing I like digressive compression damping- lots of support at rider induced movements but allows the wheel to get out of the way from obstacles. Didn't change anything in terms of travel usage, the choking sound is still there, which might confirm the rebound stack as the cause.
    If that doesn't fix the issue, I'll just remove the travel indicator o-ring, the bike feels perfect apart from the front-back travel usage (Mattoc 140mm up front)

  151. #151
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    Just a quick question: will 8x14x.1 shims suffice in the lack of 15mm ones? That was all I'm able to obtain without braking the bank, and I'm not able to break the bank atm. not for this purpose anyway.
    From my estimating, they just barely cover the rebound ports, hence me being sceptical, if it's gonna work, is there an easy formula for guestimating how much of these .1mm shims would I need to stack to get similar damping as the 16x.2? A little softer stack would do no harm as I'm running the needle halfway open.
    Thanks in advance and sorry for spamming one post after the other.

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    Just a quick question: will 8x14x.1 shims suffice in the lack of 15mm ones? That was all I'm able to obtain without braking the bank, and I'm not able to break the bank atm. not for this purpose anyway.
    From my estimating, they just barely cover the rebound ports, hence me being sceptical, if it's gonna work, is there an easy formula for guestimating how much of these .1mm shims would I need to stack to get similar damping as the 16x.2? A little softer stack would do no harm as I'm running the needle halfway open.
    Thanks in advance and sorry for spamming one post after the other.
    14mm shims won't quite cover the ports,15mm is needed.


    It takes 8 .1mm shims to be the equivalent of a single .2mm

  153. #153
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    Thanks, ordered 3 15mm shims then, those are avaible where I live,
    will go for a
    15x.1(2)
    14x.1(4) rebound stack, should be plenty slow enough, I won't bother going faster, even though I probably could.
    I'll revert the IPA stack to where it was, and if I feel adventurous, and more importantly- able to use full travel, might try the 15x.1 14x.1 velocity stack, crossing my fingers for the ability of using the gold piston, but my hopes are getting weaker and weaker each day which passes with no response.
    It's funny how they did reply once when I was forwarded from the US one, but if I write to EU directly, unable to get a response (wrote 3 times on separate occasions till now)
    Last edited by piciu256; 04-23-2020 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Nope, not like this

  154. #154
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    I would be interested to know to get a gold piston in the UK. I am happy to pay for it, I just don't know who to speak to to get one.

  155. #155
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    No reply from EU support, as expected...
    Anyway, received my 8x15x.1 shims, settled on stock IPA (3 .2 shims)
    but added a 14x.1 velocity shim, if you can call it that, put it in place of the 8x12x.2 shim, no more IPA knock
    for rebound I settled on 8x15x.1(x3) 8x14x.1(x1) with stock clamp shim, didn't measure. With 3 8x14 shims it was much stiffer than stock 1 16x.2 for some reason, actually it almost felt like there is a bit of preload, anyway, this setup feels pretty nice, the rebound a just a little faster than stock.
    Somehow I didn't notice before that I had 2 different spacer shims- a .1 and a .2, I had to lower the spacing .1 to get rid of IPA knock.
    It's raining so no testing on the trail, but with the same pressure I'm able to use just a little bit more travel pushing hard at the pedals, which seems to imply it really was the 16mm rebound shim responsible Most importantly the IPA stack is back to normal and it feels much better, with .1mm more preload, the full lockout is even more redundant than it was before though

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    No reply from EU support, as expected...
    Anyway, received my 8x15x.1 shims, settled on stock IPA (3 .2 shims)
    but added a 14x.1 velocity shim, if you can call it that, put it in place of the 8x12x.2 shim, no more IPA knock
    for rebound I settled on 8x15x.1(x3) 8x14x.1(x1) with stock clamp shim, didn't measure. With 3 8x14 shims it was much stiffer than stock 1 16x.2 for some reason, actually it almost felt like there is a bit of preload, anyway, this setup feels pretty nice, the rebound a just a little faster than stock.
    Somehow I didn't notice before that I had 2 different spacer shims- a .1 and a .2, I had to lower the spacing .1 to get rid of IPA knock.
    It's raining so no testing on the trail, but with the same pressure I'm able to use just a little bit more travel pushing hard at the pedals, which seems to imply it really was the 16mm rebound shim responsible Most importantly the IPA stack is back to normal and it feels much better, with .1mm more preload, the full lockout is even more redundant than it was before though
    That's a pretty soft rebound stack. Where are you running your adjuster?

  157. #157
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    removed
    Last edited by piciu256; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:28 PM.

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    Nevermind, went outside and according to the standard bounce test, the rebound is a bit too fast- bounces above sag point 2 times instead of settling after a bit of an evershoot (like most peopple say it's supposed to and it did before) to get the "recommended" bounce I have to close the adjustment 2/3 of the way, which I guess is a non issue? Don't know what's better for performance- more low speed bypass or more shim stack damping, anyway, there is a weird knock/ click close to full extension with low speed rebound almost closed, I'm pretty sure I put everything together properly, the only change being new stack, but there was no knock before, and it only appears over 3/4 closed, as if it happens when the rebound stack closes?

  159. #159
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    Did some proper riding today, shock set @2/3 closed rebound and 0 or 1 click of IPA (prefer 1) the bike feels amazing! Yes I did some other little changes apart from different rebound tune and the 14mm compression shim (rolled the handlebar forward a little, added 5psi to Mattoc for 20% vs 25% sag and one more click of rebound) but it rides much better than before- the rebound is a bit faster and there is a bit more high speed damping, but the rear end doesn't kick anymore when I jump leaning a bit too far back, like it did before, the shock uses more travel and I feel like it's doing so more efficiently and to top it all, it's not as loud as before- it used to make a loud whistling noise when pushing after a bunny hop etc. and while the sound is still here- it's quieter and a bit lower pitched No more knock audible when riding also helps a lot with the experience.
    I cannot say more apart from that it feels better than before unfortunately as I have a hard time telling whats actually different :P

  160. #160
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    what is reason using quad-ring vs o'ring in ifp? friction?

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    Name:  Piston as.jpg
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    Is there any porpose to the three tiny screws on black collar just under shims on the picture? I started to unscrew the screws before i realized i dont need to. Tightened them back but just wandering what the colar is.
    Seems like it lets some float between shims and piston?

  162. #162
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    Dude... That's the IPA adjuster... No need to remove it, so no need to remove the set screws.

  163. #163
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    Do the screws neet to be allthe way in though? As far as they go?

  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavo View Post
    Do the screws neet to be allthe way in though? As far as they go?
    They should be tight, wherever they sit when tight is fine.

  165. #165
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    about to open up the shock and do some shim tuning. i am pretty new to this so not sure i am understanding the graphs right. for compression stack i want to go with green graph using ipa 2 position. do i understand it right that it will give me more (about double) of a low speed damping and about same high speed damping as stock (light blue graph) ipa 1 position?

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