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  1. #2201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Play is unacceptable and destroys any smooth/good shock action, as well as it creates knocking that impacts things like shock bolts, pivot bearings, etc.

    Here is some data:

    Here are the "hats", according to the packaging, they are 35.6mm wide.

    Attachment 1258477

    Attachment 1258465

    Attachment 1258467

    These next few pictures are a new bushing vs. what came in the shock. The new bushing is not compressed (split ring), so it's naturally a little bigger. A new bushing was already put in the shock, with the same results. I bought several.

    Old bushing
    Attachment 1258469

    New bushing
    Attachment 1258471

    The hats just fall out of the end of the shock by themselves. That's how loose they are.
    Attachment 1258473

    Bushing that came with the shock and new bushing.
    Attachment 1258475
    Because DU bushings spring and squish, the only way to measure them is installed. Push them into an eyelet and test fit a number of pins of different sizes.

    I haven't found a single manufacturer who has eyelet sizes sorted out. I stock 5 different grades of shock pin and machine up new ones outside that range. Everything is custom fitted. Cane Creek generally take the smallest grade, Fox are slightly oversize and Rockshox have larger eyelets but smaller bore (different DU bushing mfg).
    Some companies run as close as they can to a true 19/32" (15.08mm), others go straight to 15.10mm. I have measured eyelets on one brand at 15.15mm.
    About 50% of shocks take a different grade pin in each end.

    The two piece hardware is being replaced with new stuff. But it's not out yet. I've never been a fan of 2 piece but for short spans and the end that doesn't move much it can work okay. Manitou were running 3 piece hardware with steel pins in 40mm spans and wider.
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  2. #2202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I haven't found a single manufacturer who has eyelet sizes sorted out. I stock 5 different grades of shock pin and machine up new ones outside that range. Everything is custom fitted. Cane Creek generally take the smallest grade, Fox are slightly oversize and Rockshox have larger eyelets but smaller bore (different DU bushing mfg).
    Some companies run as close as they can to a true 19/32" (15.08mm), others go straight to 15.10mm. I have measured eyelets on one brand at 15.15mm.
    About 50% of shocks take a different grade pin in each end.

    The two piece hardware is being replaced with new stuff. But it's not out yet. I've never been a fan of 2 piece but for short spans and the end that doesn't move much it can work okay. Manitou were running 3 piece hardware with steel pins in 40mm spans and wider.
    That's another possible issue, it seemed tight when starting, but the long 2-piece hardware set (35.6mm) may cause bending forces that always wipe out the bushing mid-ride. But now no bushings will make it tight. Bottom line is that this generally isn't an issue for other manufacturers, they've figured out how to do it. Manitou needs to make this right/work.
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  3. #2203
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    2019 Stumpjumper

    Anybody here using a McLeod yet on a 2019 Stumpjumper?

    If so, LT, ST, or Evo?
    How well do the flip chips fit in the lower shock eyelet?
    Did you replace a Fox or Rochshox and how does the McLeod compare ... better and worse (if anything)?
    Standard air can or King Can?

  4. #2204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    That's another possible issue, it seemed tight when starting, but the long 2-piece hardware set (35.6mm) may cause bending forces that always wipe out the bushing mid-ride. But now no bushings will make it tight. Bottom line is that this generally isn't an issue for other manufacturers, they've figured out how to do it. Manitou needs to make this right/work.
    If you read through this forum you will see I have/had same issue.. even sent shock back to manitou.. they were very helpful and sent me new shock and made some bushings for me.. but I agree that this is ridiculous.

    obviously Douglas has great info but he always chimes in that every shock has this issue, I have to strongly disagree with this.

    Just as you I've had plenty of other shocks in my 20+ years of riding and never had any issues with eyelet hardware tolerance...never..

    Maybe there is some variance in every shock..ok ill give him that but not to the point that its an issue like it is with this shock. Its just not an issue with other shocks period.. go ask any shop.

    I have 2 RWC roller bearings I cannot use with this shock.. also bought Fox argus and standard DU.. they were all too loose on bottom just as you say.. makes no sense.. anyway.

    Side note:

    This shock has a knock when IPA is fully open.. I know this because the shock I got back from manitou was 100% dialed and sorted yet still has loose bushing issue and still has a clunk when IPA is open.. so this is normal and may be more pronounced on certain bikes? I have a SC hightower and I definitely feel a clunk that feels like a loose bushing.

    all and all would I buy this again.. Im not sure to be honest, customer support was great but there are just too many little issues with this shock for me personally. I also find that it blows through the stroke pretty easily when running correct sag and rebound is weird.. hard to get a consistent setting on rebound.

    Last thing.. when I was with out shock for several weeks while it was back at manitou I swapped my stock RT debonair back in and was surprised how well it worked... and no clunking no loose bushings!

    Id probably go fox dpx2 if I could do over.

    as it is now I'm too cheap to replace it..lol but might do at some point soon.

  5. #2205
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    If you read through this forum you will see I have/had same issue.. even sent shock back to manitou.. they were very helpful and sent me new shock and made some bushings for me.. but I agree that this is ridiculous.

    obviously Douglas has great info but he always chimes in that every shock has this issue, I have to strongly disagree with this.

    Just as you I've had plenty of other shocks in my 20+ years of riding and never had any issues with eyelet hardware tolerance...never..

    Maybe there is some variance in every shock..ok ill give him that but not to the point that its an issue like it is with this shock. Its just not an issue with other shocks period.. go ask any shop.

    I have 2 RWC roller bearings I cannot use with this shock.. also bought Fox argus and standard DU.. they were all too loose on bottom just as you say.. makes no sense.. anyway.

    Side note:

    This shock has a knock when IPA is fully open.. I know this because the shock I got back from manitou was 100% dialed and sorted yet still has loose bushing issue and still has a clunk when IPA is open.. so this is normal and may be more pronounced on certain bikes? I have a SC hightower and I definitely feel a clunk that feels like a loose bushing.

    all and all would I buy this again.. Im not sure to be honest, customer support was great but there are just too many little issues with this shock for me personally. I also find that it blows through the stroke pretty easily when running correct sag and rebound is weird.. hard to get a consistent setting on rebound.

    Last thing.. when I was with out shock for several weeks while it was back at manitou I swapped my stock RT debonair back in and was surprised how well it worked... and no clunking no loose bushings!

    Id probably go fox dpx2 if I could do over.

    as it is now I'm too cheap to replace it..lol but might do at some point soon.
    Do you have a metric or an English shock? Are they having issues with newer shocks in particular? I have ordered a metric shock and hoping that I don't have issues...
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  6. #2206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Do you have a metric or an English shock? Are they having issues with newer shocks in particular? I have ordered a metric shock and hoping that I don't have issues...
    My Metric shock was perfect with the Fox hardware.
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  7. #2207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Do you have a metric or an English shock? Are they having issues with newer shocks in particular? I have ordered a metric shock and hoping that I don't have issues...
    I have a new metric 190x45 sitting on my desk here and some new Rock Shox hardware that is a perfect snug fit in the Manitou installed original bushings, both ends fit exactly the same. I also have a couple of older non-metrics that didn't give me any memorable trouble, although they were on the looser side compared to other Fox and Rock Shox I have. I prefered it, if anything the problems I have had most often in the past were too tight hardware causing issues. I am running a RWS needle bearing kit on one end of the McLeod I have in my Smuggler and it works great.

  8. #2208
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    Converting stroke on a metric shock?

    What's involved in converting the stroke on new metric shocks? Is it just adding or removing a 5mm spacer placed behind a bottom out bumper?
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  9. #2209
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtMerchantBicycles View Post
    What's involved in converting the stroke on new metric shocks? Is it just adding or removing a 5mm spacer placed behind a bottom out bumper?
    Shortening the stroke would be adding spacers under the bottom out bumper, you can shorten eye2eye and stroke at the same time with spacers in the negative chamber.

  10. #2210
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    Yes, is that how Manitou implements this from the factory?

    Are 210x50 and 210x55 shocks identical aside from a 5mm spacer under the bottom out bumper?
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  11. #2211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtMerchantBicycles View Post
    Yes, is that how Manitou implements this from the factory?

    Are 210x50 and 210x55 shocks identical aside from a 5mm spacer under the bottom out bumper?
    Correct.

  12. #2212
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    Quote Originally Posted by kartracer View Post
    Anybody here using a McLeod yet on a 2019 Stumpjumper?

    If so, LT, ST, or Evo?
    How well do the flip chips fit in the lower shock eyelet?
    Did you replace a Fox or Rochshox and how does the McLeod compare ... better and worse (if anything)?
    Standard air can or King Can?
    Also interested in this, if the flip chip is loose there is nothing you can do really. I am interested to try this shock but it's an expensive gamble.

    For what it's worth.... I've tried the following on my Stumpy Evo 29

    DPX2 - Rubbish for a heavier rider, couldn't get the rebound slow enough. Poor small bump sensitivity.

    CC IL Coil - Sensitivity obviously fantastic, very tuneable... just not enough progression in the kinematics without using absurd amounts of HSC or too high spring rate

    CC DB Air - Fantastic, great small bump, ultra tuneable, nil fade, enough ramp up to avoid bottom out. I would prefer maybe a bit more HSR as I have It maxed out. Only requires low pressure too (I'm at 170psi at 230lb bodyweight)

  13. #2213
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    My McLeod mounted up perfectly on my Tall Boy using new fox hardware on the top mount and a new RWC kit on the bottom. Over 500 miles and no play and no knocking at all.

    For the folks having bushing play issues- Just a question- Are you using new hardware, or hardware from the old shock ? If not, try new.

    If you are using new hardware and the fit is still slightly loose, use some Loctite 660 (6513242) on the interface and you should be good to go. This is not thread locker! 660 is a bushing/bearing retaining compound specifically for this purpose. It does not "glue" the bushing, it will only make the fit tighter.

    Oh! The McLeod on a VVP 3 suspension? One word- Brilliant. It is so much better than the DPS, no comparison.

  14. #2214
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    Simple question : I have a 200x51mm McLeod but got a new bike with 190x51mm shock.
    Can my 200x51 be easily changed to 190x51mm?
    thanks

  15. #2215
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    Nope, you'd need a different damper body, it's not too hard really, but not economically viable sadly. You could make it into a 190x40 quite easily though

  16. #2216
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    You can't decrease/increase eye to eye length but you can usually only decrease stroke length.
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  17. #2217
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirati View Post
    Simple question : I have a 200x51mm McLeod but got a new bike with 190x51mm shock.
    Can my 200x51 be easily changed to 190x51mm?
    thanks
    Easlily, no. You might get close with offset bushings and maybe a small internal spacer, but it all depends on your specific bike if that is possible or even a decent idea.

  18. #2218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rngspnr View Post
    You can't decrease/increase eye to eye length but you can usually only decrease stroke length.
    It's often possible to decrease E2E, but only by decreasing the stroke by the same length. Same with A2C and fork travel. What's not easily possible is decreasing E2E without decreasing travel.
    Last edited by Mac1987; 06-24-2019 at 01:49 AM.

  19. #2219
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirati View Post
    Simple question : I have a 200x51mm McLeod but got a new bike with 190x51mm shock.
    Can my 200x51 be easily changed to 190x51mm?
    thanks
    Yes. Those two sizes use the same air-cans and damper but a shorter damper body on the 190mm.

    It would need a full rebuild.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  20. #2220
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    Getting a new Mcleod set up on my Ripley V4. Bottoming out pretty easily at reasonable sag levels (25-30%). In general things feel pretty good but I need some more progression.

    Are there air volume spacers available or suggestion of what I can use?

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  21. #2221
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumphair View Post
    Getting a new Mcleod set up on my Ripley V4. Bottoming out pretty easily at reasonable sag levels (25-30%). In general things feel pretty good but I need some more progression.

    Are there air volume spacers available or suggestion of what I can use?

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Add some grease to the positive air chamber. That's how Fox makes their negative chamber more progressive

  22. #2222
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    Just installed a Mcleod on the Ripley:

    Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-img_6891.jpg

    Purchased from a reputable dealer and asked for a fox bushings but he said they were loose so he put in the Manitou ones. Bolted right up to the Ibis.

    So far, so good.
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  23. #2223
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    My 7yro son has this shock on his new Commencal Clash 24". Manitou's new 24" J-Unit fork got all the headlines (we LOVE the fork too) but DAMN...this shock is really really nice. The "Nino" kids tune they did is spectacular. It functions just like an adult shock. Its nice, plush and sags appropriately to 30% at 40 psi. The kids 60lbs creates zero suspension bob, and it actually works on the small stuff and chunder unlike the adult light rider tuned stuff on other kids FS. Did some chunky black diamond trails and it was a game-changer for him. Rebound/Compression is on point too and the 4-position lever is really useful for a kid that only has a BMX and a 145mm FS. Having the Chunder and Flow settings are actually super useful and its not like a "climb switch" that you forget about.



    Obligatory Jump Pic:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-wesbikepic.jpg  

    Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-wesbikepicjump.jpg  


  24. #2224
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    Finally got the stickers made up for my Primer. I got a yellow and grey version printed. They actually printed me 4 of each for some reason. Wife seems to think the grey flows better with the bike but I think I'm going to put the yellow on there to start with.

  25. #2225
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinyard View Post
    My 7yro son has this shock on his new Commencal Clash 24". Manitou's new 24" J-Unit fork got all the headlines (we LOVE the fork too) but DAMN...this shock is really really nice. The "Nino" kids tune they did is spectacular. It functions just like an adult shock. Its nice, plush and sags appropriately to 30% at 40 psi. The kids 60lbs creates zero suspension bob, and it actually works on the small stuff and chunder unlike the adult light rider tuned stuff on other kids FS. Did some chunky black diamond trails and it was a game-changer for him. Rebound/Compression is on point too and the 4-position lever is really useful for a kid that only has a BMX and a 145mm FS. Having the Chunder and Flow settings are actually super useful and its not like a "climb switch" that you forget about.



    Obligatory Jump Pic:
    I think we have a nominee for dad of the year...
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    That's rad.

  27. #2227
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    Just installed this shock on my DMR Sled tonight. 216x63. Worlds better than the Rockshox Monarch RT3 the bike came with. I was at 350psi on the RS and barely get 30-35% sag. I weigh 320 neked. Iím at 250psi on the McLeod and it seems like itís right, but once I get some help to set the sag Iíll get it dialed for sure. Any recommendations on pressure? How about on the rebound setting? I turned it fully clockwise and backed off a quarter turn, seems ok, but I havenít actually had it out on the trail yet. Any help is much appreciated as I dive into the world of suspension setup. Also installed an MRP Ribbon Air 160mm up front.

  28. #2228
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    pressure is entirely dependent on how much leverage your frame puts on the shock.

    FWIW i was at 160psi on a ~2.6:1 bike at 78KG body weight.

    be careful with dialing in too much rebound damping, in my experience it has a significant effect on perceived compression damping. there's no "check valve" like a Deluxe. If i'm wrong about the architecture, mullen or Dougal can elaborate.


    for rebound, after you're comfortable with the sag, just run the bike off a sizable curb seated starting with it fully open until you feel the bike no longer bouncing you off on a secondary oscillation.

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/news/su...n-setup-guide/

  29. #2229
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    pressure is entirely dependent on how much leverage your frame puts on the shock.

    FWIW i was at 160psi on a ~2.6:1 bike at 78KG body weight.

    be careful with dialing in too much rebound damping, in my experience it has a significant effect on perceived compression damping. there's no "check valve" like a Deluxe. If i'm wrong about the architecture, mullen or Dougal can elaborate.


    for rebound, after you're comfortable with the sag, just run the bike off a sizable curb seated starting with it fully open until you feel the bike no longer bouncing you off on a secondary oscillation.

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/news/su...n-setup-guide/
    The rebound does have a check valve on it. So rebound doesn't affect compression at all.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  30. #2230
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    My last mcleod was defective then.

  31. #2231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The rebound does have a check valve on it. So rebound doesn't affect compression at all.
    I bet he though about packing or pogo which can create feeling like too much compression. I always think that rebound should be fastest possible you can handle. I was wrong maybe
    digressive nature of preloaded stack has big influence on it.

    PS or maybe lsr freebled reduce freeflow during compression. That can be felt in chargers1.

  32. #2232
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    Nope. Couldnt even set sag with rebound dialed in.

    This is with the newer gold bleed piston too.

    Mine was revalved by a tech before i received it. Could be why. Ill post the tune that he drew on the box tomorrow.

  33. #2233
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Nope. Couldnt even set sag with rebound dialed in.

    This is with the newer gold bleed piston too.

    Mine was revalved by a tech before i received it. Could be why. Ill post the tune that he drew on the box tomorrow.
    Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-123421811.jpg

    There is definitely a check valve. I have run hundreds of different McLeod tunes and never had the issue you are describing, so the tune is not the issue.

    What do you mean you couldn't set sag with the rebound dialed? I'm not sure how setting sag would be affected by the lsr check plate. Even if the shim was removed, it would just add a flow path that would make it easier to check sag as oil would flow easier on compression.

  34. #2234
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    With the rebound dial close to closed the shock felt nearly locked out even when outside lsc setting 4. It was also loose making it difficult to maintain a consistent setting. Just ran it open most of the time. The countersunk screw holding the dial on had no effect on this looseness and the dial almost felt preloaded to return to fully open.

  35. #2235
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    Still waiting to hear back from Manitou on my loose-eyelets. They said they would get back to me, but then have taken an extended break it seems? As in been more than a week since I've heard from them.
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  36. #2236
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    Heres the tune FWIW. I loved the shock. Maybe the bleed valve just doesnt flow enough when the rebound needle(?) is close to closed?

    Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-20190704_095103-1-.jpg

  37. #2237
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    With the rebound dial close to closed the shock felt nearly locked out even when outside lsc setting 4. It was also loose making it difficult to maintain a consistent setting. Just ran it open most of the time. The countersunk screw holding the dial on had no effect on this looseness and the dial almost felt preloaded to return to fully open.
    That's really odd. Even if the check plate was broken and affecting oil flow rates, oil would still have the normal compression flow paths open, backflows through the rebound needle would just add extra flow that would weaken any lock out, not create one.

    This is very odd behavior, you might want to contact tech support.

    Side note, you can add a small o ring under the rebound adjuster to add a little tension if needed.


    Jayem, I believe a few people took vacation this week because of the holiday. I'll mention something to try to speed it up.

  38. #2238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Just installed a Mcleod on the Ripley:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Purchased from a reputable dealer and asked for a fox bushings but he said they were loose so he put in the Manitou ones. Bolted right up to the Ibis.

    So far, so good.
    Forgot to mention that after one ride, I realized the air can needed to be reset. Did that and lubed it up as well, as it was bone dry. I would recommend anybody getting a Mcleod reset the air can and add some lube before use.
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  39. #2239
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    Looking good. How does it feel off the top? Supple enough?

    I used to reset it once a month at least just for peace of mind. Nothings worse than getting half a mile down the trail and realizing your shock is topping out on everything.

  40. #2240
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Looking good. How does it feel off the top? Supple enough?

    I used to reset it once a month at least just for peace of mind. Nothings worse than getting half a mile down the trail and realizing your shock is topping out on everything.

    Feels great. Very plush on the small stuff and takes the big hits really nicely.

    I have a Mcleod on my 5-spot as well and I generally reset the car 2-3 times a year. And I agree with you 100%, nothing more annoying than finding out you should have done it!
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  41. #2241
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    McLeod on a 2012 Rumblefish?

    My new to me ride is a 2012 Rumblefish Elite. The McLeod looks like the best replacement when the Fox Float RP2 gives up the ghost? I found the Remedy re-fit thread, but not one for a Rumblefish.

    The original RP2 is the Trek special size - 7.25" x 1.875 (184mm x 48mm), with threaded upper mount and 120mm of travel. I assume the 7.5" x 2.0" McLeod is my closest fit, and that I will need an internal bumper to limit travel?

    I want to prepare for the swap, and not have the bike in pieces waiting for parts. Suggestions on gotchas and what I'll need are appreciated. Should I expect any issues due to the 7.25" vs. 7.5" OAL difference?

    I weigh 190 dry. Riding is mostly singletrack.

  42. #2242
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    Should I go for the standard can or king can for a Canyon Spectral 2015 with this kind of leverage curve?
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  43. #2243
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlugGlug View Post
    My new to me ride is a 2012 Rumblefish Elite. The McLeod looks like the best replacement when the Fox Float RP2 gives up the ghost? I found the Remedy re-fit thread, but not one for a Rumblefish.

    The original RP2 is the Trek special size - 7.25" x 1.875 (184mm x 48mm), with threaded upper mount and 120mm of travel. I assume the 7.5" x 2.0" McLeod is my closest fit, and that I will need an internal bumper to limit travel?

    I want to prepare for the swap, and not have the bike in pieces waiting for parts. Suggestions on gotchas and what I'll need are appreciated. Should I expect any issues due to the 7.25" vs. 7.5" OAL difference?

    I weigh 190 dry. Riding is mostly singletrack.
    I think that would be the best option - 7.5 X 2.0 with two spacers down to 7.25 X 1.75. I think Manitou will send them to you for free if you call them.
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  44. #2244
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    good candidate for king can. it looks sufficiently progressive on its own.

  45. #2245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boronite View Post
    Should I go for the standard can or king can for a Canyon Spectral 2015 with this kind of leverage curve?
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    As factorymatt said, that's a pretty progressive curve. Definitely a king can, possibly in the full volume setting.

  46. #2246
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    Thanks for the info. Is it straight forward to change to a king can yourself? Are there any guides somewhere?

  47. #2247
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    there's probably a service guide on youtube. make sure to have some of this on hand as well. same as sram butter but cheaper cutting out the middleman.

    https://www.amazon.com/Slickoleum-Fr...50954081&psc=1

    it requires a special wrench, but is actually easier once you have it than fussing with a strap wrench on a non manitou shock. just twist it off, and twist the new one on. the negative spring pressure will put up a fight so make sure you're pressing down HARD while twisting so as not to strip out the first threads.

    https://www.amazon.com/Manitou-McLeo.../dp/B07BLM2XR6

  48. #2248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I think that would be the best option - 7.5 X 2.0 with two spacers down to 7.25 X 1.75. I think Manitou will send them to you for free if you call them.
    Thank you. I am still trying to get up to speed on these details.

    I found a leverage curve for the 2013 Rumblefish. It should be very similar to the 2012. Is there any particular tuning I should plan for?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-rumblefish.2013.leverage.ratio.png  


  49. #2249
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlugGlug View Post
    Thank you. I am still trying to get up to speed on these details.

    I found a leverage curve for the 2013 Rumblefish. It should be very similar to the 2012. Is there any particular tuning I should plan for?

    That looks to go from a 2.48 to 2.40 rate. Not really much of a change at all. I think a regular can should work fine.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  50. #2250
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    King Can

    What are the general characteristics or symptoms that would indicate a potential benefit from switching to a King Can vs. the standard air can?

    Do certain suspension kinematics typically lend themselves to benefit from a King Can?

    Likewise, are there suspension attributes that typically do not benefit from a King Can or are made worse by a King Can?

  51. #2251
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    bottoming out and/or not enough mid stroke support = NO king can

    not using full travel = king can


    the more progressive the leverage rate curve is, the more volume you can use in the positive chamber to give the bike a more "coil like" feel.

    the less progressive the leverage rate curve, the more "help" you need from the shock to keep from blowing through the travel, in the form of restricted pos volume.

  52. #2252
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    Quote Originally Posted by kartracer View Post
    What are the general characteristics or symptoms that would indicate a potential benefit from switching to a King Can vs. the standard air can?

    Do certain suspension kinematics typically lend themselves to benefit from a King Can?

    Likewise, are there suspension attributes that typically do not benefit from a King Can or are made worse by a King Can?
    Tune by frequency. If sag is too much then you need more volume and the king-can.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  53. #2253
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    Hm, pretty sure I need a King Can. Even at 100psi (I'm ~75kg/165lbs kitted up) I still can't use full travel. I have about 1-2cm (that's about 0.39 to 0.79 inferior measurement units) left on the stanchion.

  54. #2254
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    What sag are you running? What is the leverage ratio? How much travel does your shock actually have? 200x51 version has about 10mm stanchion left at bottom out for example.

  55. #2255
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    About 30% sag. The bike has 140mm of travel. Length is 190x50. Leverage ratio is this (Canyon Spectral):

  56. #2256
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    Looking at the progressivity- I'd say you really want to consider the King can, for comparison my bike has same shock stroke for 130mm of travel, but 17% progressivity as compared to yours 23.5 %, in my case when riding normally I use 90% of the travel, which is a sign that the shock is sitting properly high in its travel, but when I hit something large enough (eg. 1m drop to flat) I'm able to use full travel at once, with no harsh bottom out, so I'd say the normal can is ideal in my case (30% sag @90psi, 55kg rider)

  57. #2257
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    Anyone know if there is a 165x45 trunion available
    For the McLeod?
    Thanks

  58. #2258
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsinore View Post
    Anyone know if there is a 165x45 trunion available
    For the McLeod?
    Thanks
    No trunnion mount shocks yet.

  59. #2259
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    Yesterday on the trails my Mcleod started squeaking. It would squeak for a few minutes then get quiet again. People in my riding group were making fun of me. They were like, "Oh Tyler, who is your mechanic, hmmmm?" It has about 30 hours on it. Turn up the volume.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95lTx-DWfow

    Anyone know what I need to do to fix this?

  60. #2260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    Yesterday on the trails my Mcleod started squeaking. It would squeak for a few minutes then get quiet again. People in my riding group were making fun of me. They were like, "Oh Tyler, who is your mechanic, hmmmm?" It has about 30 hours on it. Turn up the volume.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95lTx-DWfow

    Anyone know what I need to do to fix this?
    Mine is also making that sound, even though it is brand new.

  61. #2261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boronite View Post
    Mine is also making that sound, even though it is brand new.
    Mine does the same and it seems to be caused by the foam ring rubbing against the shaft. The drier it gets, the worse the sound.

  62. #2262
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    Ok I'll just pull off the air can and add some grease.

    edit - I did an air can service and greased with fox slick honey. Hopefully that's a good grease 'cause it's all I have for the moment.

  63. #2263
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    Is the extremely expensive Manitou-only wrench needed to get the air can off? Or can you use your bare hands or something else?

  64. #2264
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    I used adjustable wrench. Put some electrical tape to the jaws to avoid any scratches. Worked well.

  65. #2265
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    For the first removal you might need to wrap a tube around it (for better grip and leverage) but otherwise hands are all you need.

  66. #2266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boronite View Post
    Is the extremely expensive Manitou-only wrench needed to get the air can off? Or can you use your bare hands or something else?
    Large strap wrench worked for me.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  67. #2267
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    Knipex Pliers Wrench works as well. This has the advantage that it is an amazing piece of kit that you can use for multiple things. Nearly every pro mechanic uses one as well.

  68. #2268
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    After the "whistling noise" complaint, I realised that I haven't serviced mine yet, and it's making similar noise (it always did, but it's louder than before) and since I rode 3000m of gnarly vertical drop (2x times that for elevation, 600m in one go) last week alone, I thought it'd be good to peek inside, just to be safe



    Good thing I did as the cylinder walls started to eat away at the o rings and foam ring, no oir or grease left inside to be seen- I put it there myself, don't know what intervals Manitou recommends, but this is the state of it after 50 hours of mild-heavy riding, mayby I should invest in a jar of slick honey? Atm I'm using silicone Teflon grease, it's nice and slick, but it's very sticky and low viscosity at the same time, so it might be lasting shorter than optimal, I'm using it in conjunction with Fox Gold oil.
    There is no working area wear to be seen- the anodising is really nice and strong (a lot stronger than RS or Sr for example- these damaged easily, Manitou is quite a lot tougher)
    more surprisingly to me- the cheap roller bearing is also in perfect condition still, and considering I saved 100$ on it compared to RWS, I'd say it's money well spent, even though I had to make shims to fit it myself from a filler gauge

  69. #2269
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    After the "whistling noise" complaint, I realised that I haven't serviced mine yet, and it's making similar noise (it always did, but it's louder than before) and since I rode 3000m of gnarly vertical drop (2x times that for elevation, 600m in one go) last week alone, I thought it'd be good to peek inside, just to be safe



    Good thing I did as the cylinder walls started to eat away at the o rings and foam ring, no oir or grease left inside to be seen- I put it there myself, don't know what intervals Manitou recommends, but this is the state of it after 50 hours of mild-heavy riding, mayby I should invest in a jar of slick honey? Atm I'm using silicone Teflon grease, it's nice and slick, but it's very sticky and low viscosity at the same time, so it might be lasting shorter than optimal, I'm using it in conjunction with Fox Gold oil.
    There is no working area wear to be seen- the anodising is really nice and strong (a lot stronger than RS or Sr for example- these damaged easily, Manitou is quite a lot tougher)
    more surprisingly to me- the cheap roller bearing is also in perfect condition still, and considering I saved 100$ on it compared to RWS, I'd say it's money well spent, even though I had to make shims to fit it myself from a filler gauge
    Adding fix gold ( or any oil) to the air can adds short term performance gains at the cost of long service intervals. The oil washes the grease away from the seals and oil/grease combo will get passed the wipers faster in my experience.

    Slicoleum ( slick honey) only is the preferred lubrication of pretty much every manufacture, as the performance to longevity ratio is the best currently available. You can add oil, or use oil only, but you will need to service the air can more often to keep it smooth and prevent wear.

    I personally add 1cc of supergliss to my personal air cans, but service them ever 5-10 hours to keep performance at the highest possible level. (To be fair, I am constantly testing new tunes or internal changes, so I'm I'm rebuilding anyway).

    On my wife's and friends Manitou stuff, I use slicoleum only. The performance is 95% as good with 5x the longevity.

  70. #2270
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    Been mixing oil/grease in my McLeod with the thought of keeping main seal wet and thus keeping negative chamber air in.

    Good insight, might reconsider and just use grease next time around.

    On another note, anybody have luck getting yellow piston, been bugging Zac for it for a while but nothing out of it.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  71. #2271
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    Here is my experience with the McLeod after ~400 km:
    It replaced a well working Fox DPS Evol, serviced regularly.
    Much better small bump compliance. Now I can even feel the difference when pedaling vs. coasting on my 5010 V2. I never understood people that says the suspension firms up under chain tension on this bike, now I can feel the difference.
    I always run fully open. I may even want an even "more open" mode (my weight is 70 kg).
    The rebound knob is annoying: It easily moves by itself and it is difficult to put in the same position once dialed in. In reality it pretty much only has 5 positions: 0, 25, 50, 75 and 100% and has to be checked before every ride.

    Major criticism:
    I am not able to source 3-in-1 IFP service tool in Europe/Denmark.
    I asked Manitou directly but no answer. Can anyone help?

  72. #2272
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    Quote Originally Posted by detsortehul View Post
    Major criticism:
    I am not able to source 3-in-1 IFP service tool in Europe/Denmark.
    I asked Manitou directly but no answer. Can anyone help?
    We ship worldwide.

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/ifp-val...n-manitou.html
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  73. #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Adding fix gold ( or any oil) to the air can adds short term performance gains at the cost of long service intervals.

    How long are we talking here? Less than 30 hours?

    I went on a couple rides and my air can lubing did the trick to eliminate the squeaks. I'll do that monthly now I guess.

  74. #2274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    How long are we talking here? Less than 30 hours?

    I went on a couple rides and my air can lubing did the trick to eliminate the squeaks. I'll do that monthly now I guess.
    If using oil and Grease, I would go around 20-25 hours. You could push it to 30 in a pinch.

    If your worried about short service intervals, use grease only.

    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Been mixing oil/grease in my McLeod with the thought of keeping main seal wet and thus keeping negative chamber air in.

    Good insight, might reconsider and just use grease next time around.

    On another note, anybody have luck getting yellow piston, been bugging Zac for it for a while but nothing out of it.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    I don't want to speak for Zack, but he probably isn't going to send them out at his cost. Just like any other suspension service center wouldn't, it would be money out of his pocket. I would guess that he would install one with a full rebuild service.

    If you want one for self install, you will need to go through tech support. The

    Quote Originally Posted by detsortehul View Post
    Here is my experience with the McLeod after ~400 km:
    It replaced a well working Fox DPS Evol, serviced regularly.
    Much better small bump compliance. Now I can even feel the difference when pedaling vs. coasting on my 5010 V2. I never understood people that says the suspension firms up under chain tension on this bike, now I can feel the difference.
    I always run fully open. I may even want an even "more open" mode (my weight is 70 kg).
    The rebound knob is annoying: It easily moves by itself and it is difficult to put in the same position once dialed in. In reality it pretty much only has 5 positions: 0, 25, 50, 75 and 100% and has to be checked before every ride.

    Major criticism:
    I am not able to source 3-in-1 IFP service tool in Europe/Denmark.
    I asked Manitou directly but no answer. Can anyone help?
    Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I love the lack of clickson the McLeod rebound. I always find myself in between clicks on most suspension. I have never had any issue with any of mine moving either, but I have heard that complaint pop up a few times recently. maybe it's something with a recent batch? I'll look into it.

    The McLeod rebound has just over a full turn of adjustment. Start fully closed and pay attention to the amount you turn it. For example, I run my rebound 5/8 turn out from full closed. This makes for a easily repeatable setting. You can even from there as 1/16th or a turn makes a pretty significant difference

  75. #2275
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    If Manitou wants people to buy their stuff, they surely cannot expect people to pay ~$90 for a small keychain tool to be shipped from New Zealand. This tool looks like its supposed to be $10 at most. Why isn't customer support getting back to him?

  76. #2276
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    their new PM or MD seems impressive and seems like he gets it. i do hope they address these peripheral items. $70 for stamped alloy wrench with a nylon insert is a bit high.



  77. #2277
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    If Manitou wants people to buy their stuff, they surely cannot expect people to pay ~$90 for a small keychain tool to be shipped from New Zealand. This tool looks like its supposed to be $10 at most. Why isn't customer support getting back to him?
    That's $US45. Don't get confused by $NZ and the NZ sales tax which doesn't apply to export.

    I'm not sure how you expect a 4 piece machined interlocking stainless steel tool to be sold for $10.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  78. #2278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That's $US45. Don't get confused by $NZ and the NZ sales tax which doesn't apply to export.
    I went through the checkout process, entered my zip code and got something like $86 USD shipped. I didn't complete the purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm not sure how you expect a 4 piece machined interlocking stainless steel tool to be sold for $10.
    If done right manufacturing cost of this keychain should be minimal. Just for comparison purposes, Rockshox has a widely available IFP adapter which appears to be widely available at about $7 (https://www.sram.com/en/rockshox/models/tl-rst-vla-a1).

    Regardless of price, I think the availability is a huge red flag, and its a legitimate concern for anyone buying anything from Manitou. Even looking at the video posted above about the Mara, they are really pushing the serviceability of their products as a core feature, so any necessary tools and parts are key!

  79. #2279
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post

    Regardless of price, I think the availability is a huge red flag, and its a legitimate concern for anyone buying anything from Manitou. Even looking at the video posted above about the Mara, they are really pushing the serviceability of their products as a core feature, so any necessary tools and parts are key!


    This (unfortunately) seems like the truth.

    Over six weeks ago I decided to take the plunge on a mcleod. Was going to purchase it through a german site, but Dougal has made comments in the past about supporting local distributors, so fine, went into my LBS. Nobody there knew Manitou was still in business. So I went to my next LBS. More blank stares.

    At this point I contact the local distributor - who was "surprised" that the to lbs that I mentioned didnt know anything about Manitou. So he was going to order the shock and hardware for me. Told me 2 weeks. Exellent, I am over 6 weeks away from a bike vacation, so that gives me lots of time.

    Next day he calls me an says the mounting hardware size I need is unavailable - but I can get the ones that are .2mm to big. I have access to a lathe, so fine, I can machine those down. Now to wait for the shock.

    four weeks go by, and I have heard nothing. I call, and am advised it just arrived, and he will call back once its in his inventory.

    close to two more weeks now and still no call back. And I go on my trip in 2 days.

    Good thing I have (and really really love) my Mattoc. It shouldnt be this difficult to get stuff.

  80. #2280
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    I went through the checkout process, entered my zip code and got something like $86 USD shipped. I didn't complete the purchase.
    That's $NZD86. There entire shockcraft site is $NZD. We are working on an international site with different currencies which will be at www.shockcraft.com

    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    If done right manufacturing cost of this keychain should be minimal. Just for comparison purposes, Rockshox has a widely available IFP adapter which appears to be widely available at about $7 (https://www.sram.com/en/rockshox/models/tl-rst-vla-a1).

    Regardless of price, I think the availability is a huge red flag, and its a legitimate concern for anyone buying anything from Manitou. Even looking at the video posted above about the Mara, they are really pushing the serviceability of their products as a core feature, so any necessary tools and parts are key!
    The two tools are not comparable in complexity or manufacturing cost. The SRAM tool is one alloy piece with an o-ring. The Manitou tool is 3 different tools (valve core remover, valve adapter and 5 point cap removal tool) that assemble together into a 4th piece and keychain for safe-keeping.

    Regarding availability. Every bike shop on the planet can buy these tools from their regional distributor. You should ask them why they don't?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  81. #2281
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    This (unfortunately) seems like the truth.

    Over six weeks ago I decided to take the plunge on a mcleod. Was going to purchase it through a german site, but Dougal has made comments in the past about supporting local distributors, so fine, went into my LBS. Nobody there knew Manitou was still in business. So I went to my next LBS. More blank stares.

    At this point I contact the local distributor - who was "surprised" that the to lbs that I mentioned didnt know anything about Manitou. So he was going to order the shock and hardware for me. Told me 2 weeks. Exellent, I am over 6 weeks away from a bike vacation, so that gives me lots of time.

    Next day he calls me an says the mounting hardware size I need is unavailable - but I can get the ones that are .2mm to big. I have access to a lathe, so fine, I can machine those down. Now to wait for the shock.

    four weeks go by, and I have heard nothing. I call, and am advised it just arrived, and he will call back once its in his inventory.

    close to two more weeks now and still no call back. And I go on my trip in 2 days.

    Good thing I have (and really really love) my Mattoc. It shouldnt be this difficult to get stuff.
    If your local distributor aren't delivering, contact Manitou.

    The LBS problem is unfortunately real and shock hardware is a nightmare. Why can't everyone just use 21.9mm with 8mm bolts?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  82. #2282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The SRAM tool is one alloy piece with an o-ring. The Manitou tool is 3 different tools (valve core remover, valve adapter and 5 point cap removal tool) that assemble together into a 4th piece and keychain for safe-keeping.
    The design of the shock could be optimized to reduce specialized tool complexity and cost.

  83. #2283
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlugGlug View Post
    The design of the shock could be optimized to reduce specialized tool complexity and cost.
    IFP chambers and caps are designed to be different so normal users don't mistakenly undo them while looking for adjusters or air chamber valves.

    To put this special tool cost ($US45) in perspective. My floor pump cost a lot more than the one special tool you need to service a Manitou shock at home.

    Many shock manufacturers don't supply tools to the public at any price.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  84. #2284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    IFP chambers and caps are designed to be different so normal users don't mistakenly undo them while looking for adjusters or air chamber valves.

    To put this special tool cost ($US45) in perspective. My floor pump cost a lot more than the one special tool you need to service a Manitou shock at home.

    Many shock manufacturers don't supply tools to the public at any price.
    How much was your floor pump? This fancy keychain tool, with it's amazing 4 piece design, costs more than my high pressure shock pump. It costs more than my torque wrench. And the only person who says it's a good value appears to be the only person on the internet who is selling it, so maybe not the least biased person...

    I messaged manitou via their website. I haven't gotten a response, not even an auto-reply, which seems unusual. Does anyone know of a contact that I can speak with at Manitou to ask some questions?

  85. #2285
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    This (unfortunately) seems like the truth.

    Over six weeks ago I decided to take the plunge on a mcleod. Was going to purchase it through a german site, but Dougal has made comments in the past about supporting local distributors, so fine, went into my LBS. Nobody there knew Manitou was still in business. So I went to my next LBS. More blank stares.

    At this point I contact the local distributor - who was "surprised" that the to lbs that I mentioned didnt know anything about Manitou. So he was going to order the shock and hardware for me. Told me 2 weeks. Exellent, I am over 6 weeks away from a bike vacation, so that gives me lots of time.

    Next day he calls me an says the mounting hardware size I need is unavailable - but I can get the ones that are .2mm to big. I have access to a lathe, so fine, I can machine those down. Now to wait for the shock.

    four weeks go by, and I have heard nothing. I call, and am advised it just arrived, and he will call back once its in his inventory.

    close to two more weeks now and still no call back. And I go on my trip in 2 days.

    Good thing I have (and really really love) my Mattoc. It shouldnt be this difficult to get stuff.
    Honestly, try Dirt Merchant. I ordered my Mcleod from them and it came in a reasonable time (~2 weeks, there is demand) and with the reducers I asked for installed.

    On the Manitoumtb site, most sizes are listed as available right now, so you can always go that route.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  86. #2286
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    How much was your floor pump? This fancy keychain tool, with it's amazing 4 piece design, costs more than my high pressure shock pump. It costs more than my torque wrench. And the only person who says it's a good value appears to be the only person on the internet who is selling it, so maybe not the least biased person...
    https://ride.lezyne.com/collections/...sic-over-drive
    $US70. Which is a bargain next to my $US91 front tyre (27x2.6" 3C): https://shop.maxxis.com/c/minion-dhf-bike-tire

    You can always pay someone else to do your service.

    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    I messaged manitou via their website. I haven't gotten a response, not even an auto-reply, which seems unusual. Does anyone know of a contact that I can speak with at Manitou to ask some questions?
    https://manitoumtb.com/contact/

    Hayes Bicycle Group- Customer Care and Technical Support

    Phone: 888.686.3472
    [email protected]
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  87. #2287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    IFP chambers and caps are designed to be different so normal users don't mistakenly undo them while looking for adjusters or air chamber valves.

    To put this special tool cost ($US45) in perspective. My floor pump cost a lot more than the one special tool you need to service a Manitou shock at home.

    Many shock manufacturers don't supply tools to the public at any price.
    The competition in the industry that is driving companies to open up their shock platforms to end users is great. Of course in the 1990's many of us had our own shock dynos and were custom valving our Penske race car dampers, often at the track.

    As a designer and engineer who bought his first home CNC machine in 1997 to support my for-fun projects, I like elegance in design and execution. I am at the point in my life where I don't like proprietary tools in cases where it could have been avoided. Sometimes a design is so incredibly optimized that bespoke is the only way to go and anything less would be a significant compromise, but I don't think this is one of those cases. Btw, a bike pump is a generic tool, so it is in no way comparable.

    There is an old saying that fits so many situations - "Do you want to make great shock absorbers or proprietary service tools?"

    I appreciate the need to keep folks from hosing themselves by messing with the IFP - that does not make anyone happy, nor would stories of oil blowing out on the trail - regardless of cause. If I am designing a product, I'd like to not have a proprietary cap, and a proprietary tool to open it. If the cap must be custom due to packaging constraints, weight, sealing, etc, then then find a way to use a common tool.

    In this case, I believe elegance would be not requiring a proprietary tool.

  88. #2288
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlugGlug View Post
    The competition in the industry that is driving companies to open up their shock platforms to end users is great. Of course in the 1990's many of us had our own shock dynos and were custom valving our Penske race car dampers, often at the track.

    As a designer and engineer who bought his first home CNC machine in 1997 to support my for-fun projects, I like elegance in design and execution. I am at the point in my life where I don't like proprietary tools in cases where it could have been avoided. Sometimes a design is so incredibly optimized that bespoke is the only way to go and anything less would be a significant compromise, but I don't think this is one of those cases. Btw, a bike pump is a generic tool, so it is in no way comparable.

    There is an old saying that fits so many situations - "Do you want to make great shock absorbers or proprietary service tools?"

    I appreciate the need to keep folks from hosing themselves by messing with the IFP - that does not make anyone happy, nor would stories of oil blowing out on the trail - regardless of cause. If I am designing a product, I'd like to not have a proprietary cap, and a proprietary tool to open it. If the cap must be custom due to packaging constraints, weight, sealing, etc, then then find a way to use a common tool.

    In this case, I believe elegance would be not requiring a proprietary tool.
    Rock shocks ifp cap is supposed to use a special tool, but you can rig it off with needle nose pliers. Fox and others use the rubber plug/needle set up to (expensive) and fills the Allen key with plastic to prevent users from having access. I'm really not getting what the issue is. Manitou uses a special cap that comes with the needed ifp adapter. The 3in1 ifp tool, which is far superior to the cheap RS tool that everyone modifies to make it work properly, is the only special tool required to to a full damper rebuild.

    I'm not quite sure what the complaint is, but if you want products more user serviceable, good luck. I don't know of one, and I know for a fact no one else puts out comprehensive tuning guides with Dyno info of various shim stacks to try.

  89. #2289
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I'm not quite sure what the complaint is
    1. No immediate response to customer service inquiries.
    2. There appears to be supply chain issues, particularly with parts and special tools.
    3. This single special tool required to service the shock seemed a bit overpriced for what it is, and difficult to source.

    I believe these concerns are valid, especially for a company that doesn't have extensive networks, and they are marketing themselves as being repair friendly. Using a proprietary tools and anti-tamper keys to prevent service seems antithetical to their goals.

    Your response seems to be a bit of a straw man argue about the quality of the IFP tool itself, which I don't think myself or anyone has really brought up as a criticism. I haven't even seen the tool outside of photos. Its just a tiny air adapter though.

    Reading the forums and seeing what you and Dougal have posted, I really don't want to downplay the information you folks have posted here, it seems super useful. I am not trying to be combative. I am just sharing my observations from someone considering this product, hopefully in a constructive way. Cheers.

  90. #2290
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlugGlug View Post
    The competition in the industry that is driving companies to open up their shock platforms to end users is great. Of course in the 1990's many of us had our own shock dynos and were custom valving our Penske race car dampers, often at the track.

    As a designer and engineer who bought his first home CNC machine in 1997 to support my for-fun projects, I like elegance in design and execution. I am at the point in my life where I don't like proprietary tools in cases where it could have been avoided. Sometimes a design is so incredibly optimized that bespoke is the only way to go and anything less would be a significant compromise, but I don't think this is one of those cases. Btw, a bike pump is a generic tool, so it is in no way comparable.

    There is an old saying that fits so many situations - "Do you want to make great shock absorbers or proprietary service tools?"

    I appreciate the need to keep folks from hosing themselves by messing with the IFP - that does not make anyone happy, nor would stories of oil blowing out on the trail - regardless of cause. If I am designing a product, I'd like to not have a proprietary cap, and a proprietary tool to open it. If the cap must be custom due to packaging constraints, weight, sealing, etc, then then find a way to use a common tool.

    In this case, I believe elegance would be not requiring a proprietary tool.
    I'm going to suggest you go ahead and design up a shock that does everything while needing no proprietary tools. Because that process will show exactly why they need proprietary tools. There is simply not the space for conventional fasteners and schrader valves.

    As a service centre we have a whole workshop full of proprietary tools. For every single brand.
    Yet here we are fielding complaints about the price of a $US45 tool that any bike shop can order in for the most user friendly shock available.

    We live in a time where $US10K bikes are commonplace. Yet $US45 service tools that last a lifetime are too much.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  91. #2291
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    1. No immediate response to customer service inquiries.
    2. There appears to be supply chain issues, particularly with parts and special tools.
    3. This single special tool required to service the shock seemed a bit overpriced for what it is, and difficult to source.

    I believe these concerns are valid, especially for a company that doesn't have extensive networks, and they are marketing themselves as being repair friendly. Using a proprietary tools and anti-tamper keys to prevent service seems antithetical to their goals.

    Your response seems to be a bit of a straw man argue about the quality of the IFP tool itself, which I don't think myself or anyone has really brought up as a criticism. I haven't even seen the tool outside of photos. Its just a tiny air adapter though.

    Reading the forums and seeing what you and Dougal have posted, I really don't want to downplay the information you folks have posted here, it seems super useful. I am not trying to be combative. I am just sharing my observations from someone considering this product, hopefully in a constructive way. Cheers.
    Did you email [email protected] or go a different route? The phone number is the best way to go with any company as emails can go to spam or get lost in the shuffle.

    Supply chain issues are not the problem. There are plenty of the tools in the warehouse. The issue is more on the demand side. Manitou is a small company, most bikes you see will have RS or Fox suspension on them, it a small percentage will have Manitou or another brand. Out of that small percentage, only a couple people are interested in doing full rebuilds and owning the ifp tool. Online retailers don't want to sit on inventory (and pay inventory tax) when the item is going to just sit there. A few websites are carrying most of the small parts you will ever need. The rest can be ordered through a bike shop or online retailer through special request. Hayes is starting to sell some items direct to consumer. Hopefully it takes off and will solve these issues once and for all. For reference, the ifp tool is PN 83-2694.

    If you hold the Manitou tool and the RS tool in your hand, you will see why its more expensive. It's a much better design with a plunger that prevents air loss, and is also 3 tools in 1. Most people modify the RS version just to get it to work properly. On top of that, economics of scale plays into the cost. Sram makes and sells more because they have more shocks in the field. The more of something you manufacture, the lower the cost is per unit. Hopefully more people see that the McLeod is a higher performing shock and get Into tuning them.

  92. #2292
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    I emailed them about a shock service and they got back in 24hrs.

  93. #2293
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Did you email [email protected] or go a different route? The phone number is the best way to go with any company as emails can go to spam or get lost in the shuffle.

    Supply chain issues are not the problem. There are plenty of the tools in the warehouse. The issue is more on the demand side. Manitou is a small company, most bikes you see will have RS or Fox suspension on them, it a small percentage will have Manitou or another brand. Out of that small percentage, only a couple people are interested in doing full rebuilds and owning the ifp tool. Online retailers don't want to sit on inventory (and pay inventory tax) when the item is going to just sit there. A few websites are carrying most of the small parts you will ever need. The rest can be ordered through a bike shop or online retailer through special request. Hayes is starting to sell some items direct to consumer. Hopefully it takes off and will solve these issues once and for all. For reference, the ifp tool is PN 83-2694.

    If you hold the Manitou tool and the RS tool in your hand, you will see why its more expensive. It's a much better design with a plunger that prevents air loss, and is also 3 tools in 1. Most people modify the RS version just to get it to work properly. On top of that, economics of scale plays into the cost. Sram makes and sells more because they have more shocks in the field. The more of something you manufacture, the lower the cost is per unit. Hopefully more people see that the McLeod is a higher performing shock and get Into tuning them.

    Thanks for the feedback, definitely interesting. I don't think you really allayed any of the undeniable concerns, but at least you put it in perspective. They are a small company and there may be various reasons parts aren't available or overpriced. It would be cool of them to sell it on their website or have a distributor online they work with that stocks the common tools and parts. Also they should at least setup an auto-reply and have things go to a CRM type system to manage. There are tiny companies that get this right. I emailed them a couple days ago from the email on the website, no response. Phone number went to an answering machine. Hopefully they are putting the effort into the shock being top notch!

  94. #2294
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    It would be cool of them to sell it on their website or have a distributor online they work with that stocks the common tools and parts.
    Like this one?
    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  95. #2295
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    The Manitou support (partly thanks to Dougal) in NZ seems great. However, the level of support and availability of parts and knowledge differs per country. For example, in the Netherlands, I'm often forced to source and check things online. The shops and distributor can source the shocks and forks and sometimes seal kits, but not much else. Luckily, most parts are available in our neighbor Germany.
    To be fair though, I had to tell the Fox distributor that there was an option to upgrade air springs on the Fox 34 (still replaced it with a superior Mattoc afterwards). So it seems to be a Dutch problem.
    Let's just say I'm jealous of you Kiwi's

  96. #2296
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, definitely interesting. I don't think you really allayed any of the undeniable concerns, but at least you put it in perspective. They are a small company and there may be various reasons parts aren't available or overpriced. It would be cool of them to sell it on their website or have a distributor online they work with that stocks the common tools and parts. Also they should at least setup an auto-reply and have things go to a CRM type system to manage. There are tiny companies that get this right. I emailed them a couple days ago from the email on the website, no response. Phone number went to an answering machine. Hopefully they are putting the effort into the shock being top notch!
    Dougal sells everything and ships worldwide.

    Universal cycles carries almost everything
    https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=Manitou+

    So does bikeparts.com
    https://www.bikeparts.com/global?s=Manitou

    Again, anything not in stock or not listed can be ordered at a local shop. You could even contact one of the websites and ask them to order it. PN 83-2694.

    nd I'll say it again, emails can get lost in translation. Go to your email and type in [email protected] and send them another email if you didn't get a response. If the phone number goes to voicemail, leave a message and they will call you back.

  97. #2297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    A US based distributor, I am not ordering parts from New Zealand. Mullen mentioned some other distributors but none of them have the tool we were discussing in stock. Thanks for the info!

  98. #2298
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    A US based distributor, I am not ordering parts from New Zealand. Mullen mentioned some other distributors but none of them have the tool we were discussing in stock. Thanks for the info!
    I check yesterday, there are plenty in stock at the Hayes warehouse, just need a shop or ask a website to order it

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    Sell direct. Problem solved.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  100. #2300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    We live in a time where $US10K bikes are commonplace. Yet $US45 service tools that last a lifetime are too much.
    $45usd is reasonable for that tool.

    What I want to do is go to a USA based supplier who has aaaaaaalllll the parts and tools for my Mcleod.

    I also think the Mcleod should ship with the conversion hardware for the remote. If I want to use my own remote, I have to pay $60usd for the MILO kit, then toss the remote. So all that just for a spring, bracket and some screws. Ouch.

  101. #2301
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    I have had some issues with my McLeod but one thing is for sure, the customer service was great from them, they went above and beyond to help me out.

    outside of the shock on my bike ive never seen another manitou shock in the wild, which is pretty insane.. just shows how small their market is presently.

    Still a really good product, but some extra hassles involved as well.

  102. #2302
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumphair View Post
    Sell direct. Problem solved.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Some items are currently selling direct

    https://shop.hayesperformance.com/collections/manitou

    I will try to get the 3 in 1 tool added to the list since it's not in stock elsewhere.

  103. #2303
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    You do have to bug them a few times but Manitou service has gone way way above and beyond in the past for me as well so no complaints.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  104. #2304
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    A US based distributor, I am not ordering parts from New Zealand. Mullen mentioned some other distributors but none of them have the tool we were discussing in stock. Thanks for the info!
    dood, i ordered mine from Universal Cycles (a big QBP customer) back in 2018 with no sweat. had it 3 days later.

    Item #: 88570-215605
    Description: Manitou Rear Shock 3-in-1 IFP Service Tool - Tool
    Quantity: 1 @ $40.00

    edit: looks like it's out of stock LOL. sorry....

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=88570


    i'll sell you mine if you need one asap

  105. #2305
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    If Manitou wants people to buy their stuff, they surely cannot expect people to pay ~$90 for a small keychain tool to be shipped from New Zealand. This tool looks like its supposed to be $10 at most. Why isn't customer support getting back to him?

    Call me confused but you are complaining about a tool for a shock you don't have? Are you unwilling to buy the shock without access to the tool?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Manitou customer service has always gotten back to me. I once emailed about getting the yellow piston, and at first, they were a little slow to reply. But I was asking for a freebie so I was patient. A week later they responded, apologizing since their team was out at a race, but once they got back, they would send me the yellow piston.

    They sent me a yellow piston, a bunch of shims, and a bunch of stickers too. The thing is, with just that tool, their video on youtube, and Mullen/Dougal, you don't need much else unless something really breaks and you need to send it in.

    I'm a manitou fan for good now. $45 tool to save $200 in service each time? And the service is super easy just watch the video.

  107. #2307
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Manitou customer service has always gotten back to me. I once emailed about getting the yellow piston, and at first, they were a little slow to reply. But I was asking for a freebie so I was patient. A week later they responded, apologizing since their team was out at a race, but once they got back, they would send me the yellow piston.

    They sent me a yellow piston, a bunch of shims, and a bunch of stickers too. The thing is, with just that tool, their video on youtube, and Mullen/Dougal, you don't need much else unless something really breaks and you need to send it in.

    I'm a manitou fan for good now. $45 tool to save $200 in service each time? And the service is super easy just watch the video.
    Whats the deal with the yellow piston? is this an upgrade? what does it fix? sorry if I missed.

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    has bleed holes in it. less LSC. works well.

  109. #2309
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    has bleed holes in it. less LSC. works well.
    interesting, I have an updated shock form them as a warranty, wonder if it has this piston.. anyway to check without disassembling the damper?

  110. #2310
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    interesting, I have an updated shock form them as a warranty, wonder if it has this piston.. anyway to check without disassembling the damper?
    I believe you received the gold piston, there is no way to check without disassembly.

    The bleed piston is not to reduce LSC. The idea is to allow a very small amount of oil flow unrestricted. This helps with small bump sensitivity and the response time when transitioning between strokes. It's a subtle, but noticable difference.

    The bleed

  111. #2311
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    You always heard back, good for you, here in Poland I sent quite a few emails through the Manitou website to eu customer support and got zero response, I once asked for US support, and they did reply to my question but no free stuff for me.

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    Yup, in Europe the support is non existent. The distributor here could care less and seems to have no clue about the products. Luckily there's this forum and some good vids on youtube from hayes/manitou themselves, otherwise i would be hesitant to buy manitou products.

  113. #2313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac1987 View Post
    Knipex Pliers Wrench works as well. This has the advantage that it is an amazing piece of kit that you can use for multiple things. Nearly every pro mechanic uses one as well.
    Thanks for this info! This is the tool Iíve always needed but never knew existed. Worked perfectly to swap over to the King Can.

    Now I just need a decent inexpensive shock bushing tool...any recommendations?

  114. #2314
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    Quote Originally Posted by detsortehul View Post
    Here is my experience with the McLeod after ~400 km:
    It replaced a well working Fox DPS Evol, serviced regularly.
    Much better small bump compliance. Now I can even feel the difference when pedaling vs. coasting on my 5010 V2. I never understood people that says the suspension firms up under chain tension on this bike, now I can feel the difference.
    I always run fully open. I may even want an even "more open" mode (my weight is 70 kg)...
    Great to hear, iím preparing to replace a DPS as well. Iíve read here and elsewhere that the King Can is perfect for our weight class and should give the openness you seek.

  115. #2315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heist30 View Post

    Now I just need a decent inexpensive shock bushing tool...any recommendations?
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Shock-...01c72f95323de8
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  116. #2316
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    Item #: 88570-215605
    Description: Manitou Rear Shock 3-in-1 IFP Service Tool - Tool
    Quantity: 1 @ $40.00

    edit: looks like it's out of stock LOL. sorry....

    https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=88570
    Back in stock for $40.

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    Hey just an update, I was able to source the 3 in 1 tool, $40 shipped, so not bad. I guess it was just out of stock in lots of suppliers. I do admit, its machined rather well, the pictures don't do it justice. Haven't used it yet though, but want to have it on hand.

    I purchased a McLeod, but I skimmed this thread to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into. I am attracted to the price, performance and serviceability of the shock as an upgrade to a Monarch RT on a Santa Cruz HT. I have only done a few rides but so far no issues. The compression and rebound adjustments are a vast improvement so far.

    For anyone looking for mounting hardware for a Santa Cruz Hightower Gen 1 I had no issues with the Fox 5 piece bushings 8x21.8mm and the RWC 8x21.85mm needle bearings on the rear as well. Have to press out the DU bushings that come with the shock of course, but there is no play and things rotate really well. Thanks for the help with my setup!

    Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-mcleod_hightower.jpg

  118. #2318
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    Yep I have that one works like a charm at like 1/4 the cost of most.

  119. #2319
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    Quote Originally Posted by aapocketz View Post
    Hey just an update, I was able to source the 3 in 1 tool, $40 shipped, so not bad. I guess it was just out of stock in lots of suppliers. I do admit, its machined rather well, the pictures don't do it justice. Haven't used it yet though, but want to have it on hand.

    I purchased a McLeod, but I skimmed this thread to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into. I am attracted to the price, performance and serviceability of the shock as an upgrade to a Monarch RT on a Santa Cruz HT. I have only done a few rides but so far no issues. The compression and rebound adjustments are a vast improvement so far.

    For anyone looking for mounting hardware for a Santa Cruz Hightower Gen 1 I had no issues with the Fox 5 piece bushings 8x21.8mm and the RWC 8x21.85mm needle bearings on the rear as well. Have to press out the DU bushings that come with the shock of course, but there is no play and things rotate really well. Thanks for the help with my setup!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Very nice. Honestly, I have had a Mcleod on one bike for close to 4 years (!) and I have not done anything except an air-can lube and reset every 4 months and air can seal kit every 18 months. Hopefully you will never need to use the 3:1 unless you want to tinker and modify the shock.
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  120. #2320
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    Need a store that sells Manitou McLeod air shock* 1.50x6.5 in or near Irvine CA please... I am just requesting a friend to get one for me as I am in the Philippines. He will only be there till July 31st hence an actual store is my best bet. Thank you in advance...

  121. #2321
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    My rebound dial has stopped rotating fully and is very hard to turn. Does this require a full rebuild to fix?

  122. #2322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluman8 View Post
    My rebound dial has stopped rotating fully and is very hard to turn. Does this require a full rebuild to fix?
    Mine did the same thing, but just left it set.

    There is a small allen screw on back that I think you can adjust that controls the movement of rebound screw/knob, and think it just tightened up by itself?


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  123. #2323
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    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post
    Mine did the same thing, but just left it set.

    There is a small allen screw on back that I think you can adjust that controls the movement of rebound screw/knob, and think it just tightened up by itself?


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    Ahh... hopefully itís that, it will save me a whole lot of trouble.

  124. #2324
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    I kind of groaned when I had to buy the manitou tool, but I bought it years ago anyway.

    The manitou tool, a seal kit, and a jug of oil is still considerably cheaper than just one fox service... and now you have full access to custom tune the thing yourself. Relative to other brands, the tool is really the cheap way to go. I cant imagine not having it, and the fact that it exists at all and allows home tuning makes it incredibly valuable as a whole.

    But mostly, just look at it in terms of service. That tool pays for itself after you use it once.

  125. #2325
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    I've just installed the King Can, and everything went smoothly up until the last part when I was threading the can back onto the shock while compressing it in my frame. The can screwed on fully, but I never reached a hard stop as described in the service video. The can just rotates if I attempt to screw it on further. Is this normal? It appears to hold air just fine.

  126. #2326
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    I'm afraid you stripped the threads or didn't put the can on straight...

  127. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boronite View Post
    I've just installed the King Can, and everything went smoothly up until the last part when I was threading the can back onto the shock while compressing it in my frame. The can screwed on fully, but I never reached a hard stop as described in the service video. The can just rotates if I attempt to screw it on further. Is this normal? It appears to hold air just fine.
    The whole can is turning or just the outer can?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  128. #2328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The whole can is turning or just the outer can?
    Ah yes, it's probably the king can's outer can that is turning. I donít have the Manitou special wrench so I was using my hands + a oil filter rubber strap tool to tighten it. Is the special tool needed to get it tight enough?

  129. #2329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boronite View Post
    Ah yes, it's probably the king can's outer can that is turning. I donít have the Manitou special wrench so I was using my hands + a oil filter rubber strap tool to tighten it. Is the special tool needed to get it tight enough?

    Nah, just use a plumbers wrench from the hardware store to turn the nut on the bottom.
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  130. #2330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boronite View Post
    Ah yes, it's probably the king can's outer can that is turning. I donít have the Manitou special wrench so I was using my hands + a oil filter rubber strap tool to tighten it. Is the special tool needed to get it tight enough?
    I just pull the sleeve off when installing the air can

  131. #2331
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    Installed the King McLeod today, did two quick .7mi runs up and down a Triple R (rocky,rooty,rutty) old cart path and cannot find the words to describe the experience! Sooo much difference over the DPS. Iím 150lb, set the pressure at 150 and rebound where it felt good in the lot. The bike felt so much more stable floating through the ruts and over raised roots/rocks. Felt like I was taking it easy for the first runs but did 1s under my PR and it could be pushed harder. Used 2/3 travel, about the same as the fork, so will incrementally drop pressure and adjust rebound after a couple drops to see where it lands.

    Update: 120psi with rebound at 50% seems about right to start with...
    Last edited by Heist30; 08-03-2019 at 04:31 PM.

  132. #2332
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    I kind of want to try a king can on my Primer but it's $100 for the can. The numbers I'm seeing for my usage lead me to believe I'd benefit from it. Maybe I'll pick one up next season.

  133. #2333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heist30 View Post
    Installed the King McLeod today, did two quick .7mi runs up and down a Triple R (rocky,rooty,rutty) old cart path and cannot find the words to describe the experience! Sooo much difference over the DPS. Iím 150lb, set the pressure at 150 and rebound where it felt good in the lot. The bike felt so much more stable floating through the ruts and over raised roots/rocks. Felt like I was taking it easy for the first runs but did 1s under my PR and it could be pushed harder. Used 2/3 travel, about the same as the fork, so will incrementally drop pressure and adjust rebound after a couple drops to see where it lands.
    4 or so years ago when I got my first McLeod, I described it as "taut, like a sports car suspension".
    Always damping, never uncontrolled.

    Made my previous favourite shock feel like a boat in a storm.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  134. #2334
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    Anyone using on the new Ripley?

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  135. #2335
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    does any mcleods have yellow piston mounted in factory? How to check it?

  136. #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Anyone using on the new Ripley?

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

    Have one on the V3 and works great! Got mine from Dirtmerchant with the reducer on one end installed. Great price and great service. If you are closer to the 200 lb range as opposed to the 150 lb range, it is a no brainer. The Fox unit required 260 psi to get close to the right amount of sag and felt harsh in the repeated hits and still blew threw its travel on really big stuff. The Mcleod lets me use 190 psi for my 205 lbs and feels fantastic everywhere. Running the normal can at the moment and honestly, I don't think I need the king can on the V3. The standard can matches the linear nature of the V3 very well. The one thing I would recommend before installing it on any bike is to take the can off and lube the seals. My shock was pretty dry when I got it. Really is a set it and forget it type of addition. I used a 190 X 45 metric size.
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  137. #2337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heist30 View Post
    Installed the King McLeod today, did two quick .7mi runs up and down a Triple R (rocky,rooty,rutty) old cart path and cannot find the words to describe the experience! Sooo much difference over the DPS. Iím 150lb, set the pressure at 150 and rebound where it felt good in the lot. The bike felt so much more stable floating through the ruts and over raised roots/rocks. Felt like I was taking it easy for the first runs but did 1s under my PR and it could be pushed harder. Used 2/3 travel, about the same as the fork, so will incrementally drop pressure and adjust rebound after a couple drops to see where it lands.

    Update: 120psi with rebound at 50% seems about right to start with...
    Dang. I'm on a v1 Bronson, weigh around 135 out of the shower. On my gauge it's 85 psi. Any more and it's a bit too much. I know kinematics make a difference but that's a huge difference. When I hooked up a shockwiz to it I did read 91. I did Dougal's frequency test as well as checked sag. Bouncing around felt real good. Sag at 28-30%.

  138. #2338
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Dang. I'm on a v1 Bronson, weigh around 135 out of the shower. On my gauge it's 85 psi. Any more and it's a bit too much. I know kinematics make a difference but that's a huge difference. When I hooked up a shockwiz to it I did read 91. I did Dougal's frequency test as well as checked sag. Bouncing around felt real good. Sag at 28-30%.
    On king can? I believe king can will take more pressure. Im on a hightower OG, standard can and weigh 165, I run around 110-115 so your pressure sounds right to me.

  139. #2339
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    Hi, guys.
    Does anyone know copression ratios of the 190x50 mcleod with and without the king can?
    Asked manitou tech support, but no answer still.

    Looking for a shock with a very low CR (sub 2.4) for my extremely progressive rocky mountain thunderbolt.

  140. #2340
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionivan View Post
    Hi, guys.
    Does anyone know copression ratios of the 190x50 mcleod with and without the king can?
    Asked manitou tech support, but no answer still.

    Looking for a shock with a very low CR (sub 2.4) for my extremely progressive rocky mountain thunderbolt.
    Not sure what you are looking for but I assume it is the spring curve?

    Manitou Mcleod Rear Shock-manitou-mrd-2016-14.jpg
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  141. #2341
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    Quote Originally Posted by ionivan View Post
    Hi, guys.
    Does anyone know copression ratios of the 190x50 mcleod with and without the king can?
    Asked manitou tech support, but no answer still.

    Looking for a shock with a very low CR (sub 2.4) for my extremely progressive rocky mountain thunderbolt.
    it's probably easy enough to measure. i have a 200x51 regular can laying around if you want the ID.

    i'll say that the 190/200x57 king can worked pretty well on a 140mm Intense Primer with a 2.4-2.05 leverage curve. this is helped by the tiny, very weak negative spring the mcleod features.

  142. #2342
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogeydog View Post
    Anyone using on the new Ripley?

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    Yes. It needs air volume reduction to up the compression ratio but once tweaked it feels great on the new Ripley. The one I got came with the yellow piston and updated shim stacks from the factory. Manufacturing date was 10/2018.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  143. #2343
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    I never considered the possibility of installing the King Can on my Mcleod, my bike is a Cube AMS 120 29" and the leverage ratio is linear (top picture, blue curve).
    By the way the Newton / wheel travel ratio is not linear at all (bottom picture, blue curve).

    Should I consider the installation of the King Can?

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  144. #2344
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    yes

  145. #2345
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    Quote Originally Posted by matteof93 View Post
    I never considered the possibility of installing the King Can on my Mcleod, my bike is a Cube AMS 120 29" and the leverage ratio is linear (top picture, blue curve).
    By the way the Newton / wheel travel ratio is not linear at all (bottom picture, blue curve).

    Should I consider the installation of the King Can?

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    Are you having trouble using full travel with a standard can?

    My initial thought is no, leverage rate at the shock trumps movement at the wheel, mainly because the leverage rate at the shock is the only thing the shock will care about. That said, this is not something but have spent time looking into in the past. Maybe Dougal will be able to chime in with info I'm not thinking about.

    Your leverage rate is actually slightly regressive, though the change is small enough to be considered linear for all intents and purposes. This should mate well with the standard can

  146. #2346
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Are you having trouble using full travel with a standard can?

    My initial thought is no, leverage rate at the shock trumps movement at the wheel, mainly because the leverage rate at the shock is the only thing the shock will care about. That said, this is not something but have spent time looking into in the past. Maybe Dougal will be able to chime in with info I'm not thinking about.

    Your leverage rate is actually slightly regressive, though the change is small enough to be considered linear for all intents and purposes. This should mate well with the standard can
    Every bike that I've had the McLeod on worked better with a King-Can at mid-volume. Except an old school FSR with the 165x38 that has no king-can option.

    But that's possibly just luck of the draw. I haven't mapped out any of my bikes to see how progressive they actually are.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  147. #2347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Every bike that I've had the McLeod on worked better with a King-Can at mid-volume. Except an old school FSR with the 165x38 that has no king-can option.

    But that's possibly just luck of the draw. I haven't mapped out any of my bikes to see how progressive they actually are.

    I'm a rarity, I run 5cc reduction in a standard air can on both of the frames I have spent meaningful time on. Mrs. Mullen runs a standard can as well.

    All the Info I have leans towards king can for most frames and most riders. Linear or slightly regressive frames and/or aggressive riders do better with the standard can. I tend to tell people to try the standard can first and only tell people to try the king can only if they use 2/3 or less of travel on a normal ride.

    For reference, I'm 160lbs in gear on a pivot mach 6. 111psi with 5cc reduction in a standard can. I bottom out more than I probably should, even with all that progression

    I also ride like an idiot.

  148. #2348
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    Wow. The knowledge in this thread is bottomless. I just ride bikes, change tires and occasionally use a chain tool. Anyway, I am old and have joined the 'adaptive' bike crowd having recently purchased a turbo levo. I am 210 lbs fully geared up and the stock shock on this bike is the RockShox Deluxe RT w/ custom air valve, 150mm of travel. I find that it lacks the smoothness of a fox dpx2. Reading this thread makes me think the MacLeod is yet another quantum jump beyond the dpx2. Anyway, Given that the bike is 48lbs , that's about 260lbs the shock has to handle. Is the MacLeod appropriate or would the Mara be a safer choice?

  149. #2349
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    not that you won't love the mcleod/mara. but a megneg on the deluxe or super deluxe might give you some of that smoothness back.

    are the Maras out yet?

  150. #2350
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    are the Maras out yet?
    Not out yet. They're flat out poking Mezzers out the door right now.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  151. #2351
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Are you having trouble using full travel with a standard can?

    My initial thought is no, leverage rate at the shock trumps movement at the wheel, mainly because the leverage rate at the shock is the only thing the shock will care about. That said, this is not something but have spent time looking into in the past. Maybe Dougal will be able to chime in with info I'm not thinking about.

    Your leverage rate is actually slightly regressive, though the change is small enough to be considered linear for all intents and purposes. This should mate well with the standard can
    First of all I have to say that I don't have a lot of experience with full suspension bikes, this is my first full suspension mtb and before the Mcleod I only used a Fox Float CTD Performance.

    The Mcleod is better, anyway I usually use about 2/3 of the travel because I keep both the shock and the fork with a pressure which is enough for a quite difficult trail near by my house....other trails around my town are easier so you don't get the chance to use all the travel simply because there are not obstables which are big enough, unless you are able to go down extremely fast.

    By the way if I remember correctly my sag is in the 20-25% range, maybe I should try to set it in the 25-30% range.

  152. #2352
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    I finally have a usable shock, so I'm trying to go through the process of tuning it. Used it in a 72 mile race last weekend, but it really pounded my but and was missing about 1/3rd of travel at 125psi. I've now lowered it down to about 90psi and it's getting closer, although riding it real aggressive and still missing out on a bit of travel. 1.75" stroke and 4" of travel. Sag appears to be normal so far.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  153. #2353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I finally have a usable shock, so I'm trying to go through the process of tuning it. Used it in a 72 mile race last weekend, but it really pounded my but and was missing about 1/3rd of travel at 125psi. I've now lowered it down to about 90psi and it's getting closer, although riding it real aggressive and still missing out on a bit of travel. 1.75" stroke and 4" of travel. Sag appears to be normal so far.
    What size shock? My first thought is that you need a king can in the middle volume setting. The standard air can is fairly progressive, so if your frame has progression it may be an issue.

  154. #2354
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    What size shock? My first thought is that you need a king can in the middle volume setting. The standard air can is fairly progressive, so if your frame has progression it may be an issue.

    7.25 I believe, but this is somewhat troubling, this bike is supposed to play well with smaller cans, not the fox evol(and I have verified this) but both you and Dougal are saying the standard can doesnít work with most frames. It begs the question, why does it come this way and not with the can that works for ďmostĒ frames in both of your guyís words? The lockout worked great in the race, but I got into the same situation I did a few years ago on a 100-miler, getting beat to hell by the suspension over a long distance. Shame on me for not being able to get it set up due to limited time before the race and wanting to take advantage of the lockout, but if itís not going to work well in its current state, again, a bit troubling. Still pretty harsh at 90psi, but I have to loosen the rebound set screw and take ďsomeĒ rebound off, something that canít be done trailside. .
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  155. #2355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    7.25 I believe, but this is somewhat troubling, this bike is supposed to play well with smaller cans, not the fox evol(and I have verified this) but both you and Dougal are saying the standard can doesnít work with most frames. It begs the question, why does it come this way and not with the can that works for ďmostĒ frames in both of your guyís words? The lockout worked great in the race, but I got into the same situation I did a few years ago on a 100-miler, getting beat to hell by the suspension over a long distance. Shame on me for not being able to get it set up due to limited time before the race and wanting to take advantage of the lockout, but if itís not going to work well in its current state, again, a bit troubling. Still pretty harsh at 90psi, but I have to loosen the rebound set screw and take ďsomeĒ rebound off, something that canít be done trailside. .
    I set air pressures based on frequency bounce tests: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...rt/setup-guide
    The resulting air pressure on all my bigger travel bikes wit a single can has been too much sag. Going to a higher volume King-Can puts the ride height correct with the spring rate that I want.

    Volume for me is for tuning ride height once you're done setting frequency. I don't base volume off full travel acheived or not.

    Sounds like you need a rebound revalve too. I've done that to all mine with great results.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  156. #2356
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    I ran a standard can on my 5-Spot and also used the king can on the bike. Both worked well but the king can did work better. On my Ripley (V3) I find the normal size can works great and I have no desire to move to the king can.

    What kind of bike is it on?
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  157. #2357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    7.25 I believe, but this is somewhat troubling, this bike is supposed to play well with smaller cans, not the fox evol(and I have verified this) but both you and Dougal are saying the standard can doesnít work with most frames. It begs the question, why does it come this way and not with the can that works for ďmostĒ frames in both of your guyís words? The lockout worked great in the race, but I got into the same situation I did a few years ago on a 100-miler, getting beat to hell by the suspension over a long distance. Shame on me for not being able to get it set up due to limited time before the race and wanting to take advantage of the lockout, but if itís not going to work well in its current state, again, a bit troubling. Still pretty harsh at 90psi, but I have to loosen the rebound set screw and take ďsomeĒ rebound off, something that canít be done trailside. .
    I would say its around 50/50 at this point on king can vs regular can. I actually run reduction in my standard can. I don't think any air can system fits all bikes, but I agree with you that king can should just come standard. You can run it in mid volume setting and stuff the outer sleeve with bands to come close to the standard can volume I'd needed. It would cover the most bases.

    For what its worth, I believe the Mara pro will ship stock with a king can for aftermarket shocks. This will likely be the case for trunnion McLeods as well as they share the same eyelet and air can design. It wouldn't surprise me if it does trickle over to the imperial and standard eyelet metric McLeods as well in the future, though that's just speculation on my part.

    As for the harshness, I think trails feel harsher as rides progress because of rider fatigue. I know that when I ride long distances, ever price of suspension I have ever owned starts to feel harsh, but I'm also tired when I start to notice it.

  158. #2358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I ran a standard can on my 5-Spot and also used the king can on the bike. Both worked well but the king can did work better. On my Ripley (V3) I find the normal size can works great and I have no desire to move to the king can.

    What kind of bike is it on?
    Pivot 429SL.

    I learned long ago in the endurance races to not set the shock too firm, it works against you at mile 80 when you are getting beat to hell. That said, I still want a stable chassis, but upping the pressure to make it pedal better is a big no-no IME, it doesn't help you out on an endurance XC race.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  159. #2359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    7.25 I believe
    McLeod does not come in a 7.25 (184mm). Did you reduce a 190x50 down to 184? If so you can try a King Can.

    I have a reduced 190x50 on my Niner Jet that has a some what progressive leverage rate. I had to go with a King Can set at 1/3rd volume (King Can set half volume and added some thick rubber bands for spacers). This allows me to run about 25 to 30 percent sag, has good mid support and uses about 90% travel on most normal rides.

  160. #2360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Pivot 429SL.

    I learned long ago in the endurance races to not set the shock too firm, it works against you at mile 80 when you are getting beat to hell. That said, I still want a stable chassis, but upping the pressure to make it pedal better is a big no-no IME, it doesn't help you out on an endurance XC race.
    Quote Originally Posted by In2falling View Post
    McLeod does not come in a 7.25 (184mm). Did you reduce a 190x50 down to 184? If so you can try a King Can.

    I have a reduced 190x50 on my Niner Jet that has a some what progressive leverage rate. I had to go with a King Can set at 1/3rd volume (King Can set half volume and added some thick rubber bands for spacers). This allows me to run about 25 to 30 percent sag, has good mid support and uses about 90% travel on most normal rides.
    Yeah, I hear you. The dw link should pedal well so you might be able to drop the air pressure to get the last bit of travel. Also, In2falling might be on to something. Are we making a normal can even more progressive by shortening it? I just got a metric 190 x 45 shock but assume if that is longer shock and just shortened down.

    And since we are on the subject, would you still use a 50mm king can for a shortened shock?
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  161. #2361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Yeah, I hear you. The dw link should pedal well so you might be able to drop the air pressure to get the last bit of travel. Also, In2falling might be on to something. Are we making a normal can even more progressive by shortening it? I just got a metric 190 x 45 shock but assume if that is longer shock and just shortened down.

    And since we are on the subject, would you still use a 50mm king can for a shortened shock?
    I just looked it up,all the 190mm shocks and the 184mm all have the same air can part number, the difference is just spacers, either in the negative chamber or a thicker bottom out bumper.

    There shouldn't be any added ramp up from shortening a shock

  162. #2362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Pivot 429SL.

    I learned long ago in the endurance races to not set the shock too firm, it works against you at mile 80 when you are getting beat to hell. That said, I still want a stable chassis, but upping the pressure to make it pedal better is a big no-no IME, it doesn't help you out on an endurance XC race.
    That bike looks to have a pretty flat leverage curve (~2.5). I would drop pressure and see how that feels. I personally care less about quantity of travel and more about quality of travel and you are saying the bike is beating you up, which is not good.
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  163. #2363
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    Yes 184mm etc McLeods are 190x50's that are spaced down. They use the same King-Cans etc.

    Getting a King-Can will give you lower spring rate for the same ride height. You can always go back if you don't like it.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  164. #2364
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You can run it in mid volume setting and stuff the outer sleeve with bands to come close to the standard can volume I'd needed.
    Does the King Can come with the bands you mentioned? Is there a part number for them in case they don't come with the can or if I would want more to play with the volume?

    Thanks

  165. #2365
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    You can just use pieces of inner tube.

  166. #2366
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    Anyone knows if late production (i am assuming 2019 and on) mcleods ship with the new gold/yellow piston?

    thx
    Oren

  167. #2367
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    Anyone have experience with a Mcleod on a 2018-2019 Transition Smuggler? I was set on getting a DPX2 but tough to find it in the 210x50 Performance elite model..

  168. #2368
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    Just a small update for the people that are interested in bike park use.

    I just returned from a week long vacation in Saalbach Hinterglemm and Leogang with some friends. I'm relatively inexperienced regarding bike parks, so stayed with the blue and red lines. We also did a cross country tour with 1100 vertical meters of climbing.
    The McLeod performed great. I was a bit worried because of the lack of a piggyback on long sustained descents, but the shock felt the same at the start and end of the longer runs. Halfway through the week I only had to add some air and dial back the rebound damping because of getting faster and hitting harder lines.

    While I did steeper and more technical stuff than on my previous bike (Ghost AMR Plus with X-Fusion O2 PVA) when I went to Alpe d'Huez and Winterberg, the shock was far more consistent and dealt with both hard hits, jumps and roots perfectly. The Mattoc in the front also performed admirably.
    Somehow I don't have the feeling the original Fox DPS would have performed the same, considering the fact I had to choose between small bump compliance or big hit capability in the very flat Netherlands...

  169. #2369
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Anyone knows if late production (i am assuming 2019 and on) mcleods ship with the new gold/yellow piston?

    thx
    Oren
    Mine has a Oct 2018 manufacturing date and came with the yellow piston and updated stacks

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  170. #2370
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Anyone knows if late production (i am assuming 2019 and on) mcleods ship with the new gold/yellow piston?

    thx
    Oren
    My shock's production date was 12/28/19 and it has the yellow piston and updated shim stacks.

  171. #2371
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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    My shock's production date was 12/28/19 and it has the yellow piston and updated shim stacks.
    You must have a time machine.
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  172. #2372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerort View Post
    You must have a time machine.
    Don't you know the only thing that can go back in time is gravity! (:
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  173. #2373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Don't you know the only thing that can go back in time is gravity! (:
    Dude, that's way to deep for me. Unsubscribed!
    by Silentfoe
    I'm satisfied knowing that what I wear during my "day" job makes me more of a man than you'll ever be.

  174. #2374
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    Quote Originally Posted by 410sprint View Post
    My shock's production date was 12/28/19 and it has the yellow piston and updated shim stacks.
    Thanks.

    Iíll take that as a 19í model year.
    I saw you have it installed on a TB3... did you add the king can (if yes, how much do you weigh if itís ok asking?)

    Oren


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    Hello everyone! I'm going to throw an old Ė and pretty mediocre Ė Fox Float CTD in the incinerator in order to mount a Manitou McLeod on a 2013 Giant Reign 1. But I've got some questions:

    1) I've read comments about the progressive compression behaviour of the shock: will it be fine on my bike without buying a King Can? My weight is 60kg.

    2) My Giant Reign seems to have an integrated hardware for the lower pivot Ė Giant calls it 'Co-pivot' Ė so it seems I need no external hardware for that: any Giant Reign user can confirm it?

    3) Upper hardware measurements are 22.2x6mm, according to Giant. Will standard Manitou bushing set be fine? Are there any significant performance differences vs other brands and heavy duty mount kits Ė Racing Bros 5-pieces mounting hardware, for example?

    4) What tool do I need to mount standard bushings on my own?


    Thanks everyone in advance!

  176. #2376
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    Hello everyone! I'm going to throw an old Ė and pretty mediocre Ė Fox Float CTD in the incinerator in order to mount a Manitou McLeod on a 2013 Giant Reign 1. But I've got some questions:

    1) I've read comments about the progressive compression behaviour of the shock: will it be fine on my bike without buying a King Can? My weight is 60kg.

    2) My Giant Reign seems to have an integrated hardware for the lower pivot Ė Giant calls it 'Co-pivot' Ė so it seems I need no external hardware for that: any Giant Reign user can confirm it?

    3) Upper hardware measurements are 22.2x6mm, according to Giant. Will standard Manitou bushing set be fine? Are there any significant performance differences vs other brands and heavy duty mount kits Ė Racing Bros 5-pieces mounting hardware, for example?

    4) What tool do I need to mount standard bushings on my own?


    Thanks everyone in advance!
    130 lbs with a ~20% change in leverage ratio would suggest the use of a king can.

    Can't comment on point 2 but my Ripley only uses a hardware on one side, which is great and makes getting the can on and off very easy.

    3. Honestly, the standard manitou stuff works perfectly fine. Just order the shock from a good dealer and have them install the hardware for you. If you don't, you can get a DU removal tool from a couple of places. I used the Rock Shox one that I purchased on Amazon and it works well. The tool itself is cheap and feels cheap but does the job. In some shocks, the fox stuff slides in nicely. In others, you have to use the Manitou stuff.
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  177. #2377
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    Try it with standard can first and see how you like it.

    Just reuse the hardware from Fox and keep the standard bushing that comes with Mcleod on bottom.

    For top I would go with a Enduro needle bearing which would work/be great on Reign for it has a lot of movement. Take shock and needle bearing to local bike shop and have them pop it in for you.

    https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...mm-thru-bolts/

  178. #2378
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    Ok with all the talk about how people like king can I decided to get one to try on sc Hightower.

    Just got it... how much force should I need to get king can off body?? Got it half way with a lot of force.. donít want to force all the way off. Is there a trick to this?

  179. #2379
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    Ok with all the talk about how people like king can I decided to get one to try on sc Hightower.

    Just got it... how much force should I need to get king can off body?? Got it half way with a lot of force.. donít want to force all the way off. Is there a trick to this?
    Never mind.. I used a socket to support and pushed down.. its on there tight!!! FYI

  180. #2380
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    So guessing king can set at intermediate should take about 15lbs more pressure than standard to get sag?

    Going to start with no volume spacers and maybe add if I need.

    Any other set up tips for king can?

  181. #2381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    130 lbs with a ~20% change in leverage ratio would suggest the use of a king can.

    Can't comment on point 2 but my Ripley only uses a hardware on one side, which is great and makes getting the can on and off very easy.

    3. Honestly, the standard manitou stuff works perfectly fine. Just order the shock from a good dealer and have them install the hardware for you. If you don't, you can get a DU removal tool from a couple of places. I used the Rock Shox one that I purchased on Amazon and it works well. The tool itself is cheap and feels cheap but does the job. In some shocks, the fox stuff slides in nicely. In others, you have to use the Manitou stuff.
    So, even with a linear compression curve like Giant Reign's one - that's what I read here and on other threads - I would probably need a King Can?

  182. #2382
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    So guessing king can set at intermediate should take about 15lbs more pressure than standard to get sag?

    Going to start with no volume spacers and maybe add if I need.

    Any other set up tips for king can?
    Set air pressure by frequency, set volume to correct ride height (if the sag is too big or too small): https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...rt/setup-guide
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  183. #2383
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    So, even with a linear compression curve like Giant Reign's one - that's what I read here and on other threads - I would probably need a King Can?

    Well, a 20% increase is pretty good in my book, especially with your weight. But I do agree with In2falling, you can always try it as is and get the king can if you need it.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  184. #2384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Well, a 20% increase is pretty good in my book, especially with your weight. But I do agree with In2falling, you can always try it as is and get the king can if you need it.

    Agreed that 20% increase is not linear.

    Looking at the linkage info for a 2013 reign, its pretty progressive. I think a king can will be needed.
    Name:  Giant Reign 27.5'' 2015_LevRatio.gif
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    One thing that's worth pointing out to everyone. Linear means different things when looking at linkage then it does looking at springs on graphs. Linear on linkage means the line on a graph is straight with very little or no curve. You can have a linear progressive linkage rate , which would mean the linkage is progressive(large change in leverage ratio)with a consistent change (straight line) over the stroke.

    Linkage that works well with the regular air can would be called "flat" , meaning there is very little change in leverage ratio (usually 10% or less) over the shock stroke. Obviously regressive would pair well as well.

  185. #2385
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    I put the McLeod on my bike about two years ago. Before I did I consulted this forum and people told me that because I was riding a Santa Cruz hightower I should definitely use the standard can.

    Well I just installed the king can and I can say without hesitation that itís significantly better on the hightower.

    Better support, itís not blowing through the first part to the mid stroke of travel, and it even seems like the valving on rebound and compression works better with the King can.

    Only thing I might do is add one volume spacer band(RockShox) other than that itís a huge improvement over the standard can.

    So it just goes to show that you really have to try everything for yourself.

    It was only recently that I read in this thread that a few people said that King can seems to work better for most setups, not sure if that is something that has changed over the years or what but all I can say is definitely try it.

  186. #2386
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamarsh View Post
    I put the McLeod on my bike about two years ago. Before I did I consulted this forum and people told me that because I was riding a Santa Cruz hightower I should definitely use the standard can.

    Well I just installed the king can and I can say without hesitation that itís significantly better on the hightower.

    Better support, itís not blowing through the first part to the mid stroke of travel, and it even seems like the valving on rebound and compression works better with the King can.

    Only thing I might do is add one volume spacer band(RockShox) other than that itís a huge improvement over the standard can.

    So it just goes to show that you really have to try everything for yourself.

    It was only recently that I read in this thread that a few people said that King can seems to work better for most setups, not sure if that is something that has changed over the years or what but all I can say is definitely try it.
    I also believe that different riding styles respond better to King-Can vs Std-Can.

    If you want/need a more progressive spring curve for more forceful riding then the Std Can seems to suit those riders. If you want to cover rough ground at speed then the King-Can seems to suit those riders.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  187. #2387
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    Redacted

  188. #2388
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    Thanks everyone for the info! I was pretty sure that buying the McLeod without the King Can was the best choice for my Reign. It's a pity because at 260Ä price range (McLeod+King Can) there might be best options on the market. Isn't it?

  189. #2389
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    Thanks everyone for the info! I was pretty sure that buying the McLeod without the King Can was the best choice for my Reign. It's a pity because at 260Ä price range (McLeod+King Can) there might be best options on the market. Isn't it?
    No.

  190. #2390
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    Thanks everyone for the info! I was pretty sure that buying the McLeod without the King Can was the best choice for my Reign. It's a pity because at 260Ä price range (McLeod+King Can) there might be best options on the market. Isn't it?
    Honestly, it is still worth it.
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  191. #2391
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    Anyone coming from a Ä300+ shock that would confirm the clear superiority of this one?

  192. #2392
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    Anyone coming from a Ä300+ shock that would confirm the clear superiority of this one?
    Clear superiority? This isn't a race, every shock has its characteristics and everyone has different needs.
    The McLeod is clearly superior only to the fox dps which is garbage.
    There are good competitors, for example cane creek db air il which is also good but has a different feel and is not user serviceable.
    I sold the IL and bought the mcleod, i'm happy with it

  193. #2393
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    Sorry for my last post, no intention to rise flames or whatever. I am concerned if the shock, even at the 260Ä price range (with the King Can) would still be a big bang for the buck and a clear improvement over my crappy default Fox Float CTD. Reading some of the experiences in this thread I would bet so, but obviously I cannot read all the opinions cause this thread is pretty immense. By the way, I would probably buy it.

  194. #2394
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    Anyone coming from a Ä300+ shock that would confirm the clear superiority of this one?

    Well, a Fox DPS Factory (which I replaced with the Mcleod) goes for over 500 euro's new and the McLeod is much better. But that shock is hot poop.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  195. #2395
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    Clear superiority? This isn't a race, every shock has its characteristics and everyone has different needs.
    The McLeod is clearly superior only to the fox dps which is garbage.
    There are good competitors, for example cane creek db air il which is also good but has a different feel and is not user serviceable.
    I sold the IL and bought the mcleod, i'm happy with it
    I'm can't confirm that, I haven't tried it with the king can, but it's way too harsh without and I have to run around 85 psi, for comparison the DPS (I have two of them) run around 125-130 or so. I got a new DPS with lockout and while it's not a perfect match damping wise to my bike (unlike my tuned DPD), it's light years ahead of the McLeod and fun to ride again, I rode the McLeod in a 72 mile race a month back and it pounded me to death, painful.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  196. #2396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I'm can't confirm that, I haven't tried it with the king can, but it's way too harsh without and I have to run around 85 psi, for comparison the DPS (I have two of them) run around 125-130 or so. I got a new DPS with lockout and while it's not a perfect match damping wise to my bike (unlike my tuned DPD), it's light years ahead of the McLeod and fun to ride again, I rode the McLeod in a 72 mile race a month back and it pounded me to death, painful.
    I probably had 2 faulty dps and 2 weirdly awesome mcleod then

  197. #2397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I'm can't confirm that, I haven't tried it with the king can, but it's way too harsh without and I have to run around 85 psi, for comparison the DPS (I have two of them) run around 125-130 or so. I got a new DPS with lockout and while it's not a perfect match damping wise to my bike (unlike my tuned DPD), it's light years ahead of the McLeod and fun to ride again, I rode the McLeod in a 72 mile race a month back and it pounded me to death, painful.
    85psi is very low. I haven't had time to keep up with most of the posts, but it sounds like a bad set up with too much progression and not enough mid stroke support.

    Glad you found something to work for you.

  198. #2398
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    Quote Originally Posted by nic90 View Post
    Sorry for my last post, no intention to rise flames or whatever. I am concerned if the shock, even at the 260Ä price range (with the King Can) would still be a big bang for the buck and a clear improvement over my crappy default Fox Float CTD. Reading some of the experiences in this thread I would bet so, but obviously I cannot read all the opinions cause this thread is pretty immense. By the way, I would probably buy it.
    There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to suspension. Trail type, bike leverage rates and and curves, and personal preference all play factors in what suspension product works best. Most people seem to really like the McLeod because it adapts well to most riders and bikes. I consider it the best light weight, inline shock on the market. I'm also incredibly biased. I think the thread shows that most people find it to be a very good shock for a very reasonable price.

    Fwiw, the fox CTD shocks are the worst I have ever ridden, especially the evolution series. Anything would be an upgrade in my opinion.

  199. #2399
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    Quote Originally Posted by davideb87 View Post
    I probably had 2 faulty dps and 2 weirdly awesome mcleod then
    Make that 3 faulty DPS, 1 faulty RP23 and 4 weirdly awesome Mcleods...

    But seriously, I don't know if anyone participating in this conversation is familiar with Mohican State Park in OH but it is roots, roots and more roots. I'm not talking about just on downhills where you are coasting over them, I'm talking about on the uphills and flat pedally sections too. Yesterday was the first time taking my Pivot Mach 429 Trail there since replacing the Fox DPS with a Mcleod and I was absolutely blown away by how much better it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    [...] Fwiw, the fox CTD shocks are the worst I have ever ridden, especially the evolution series. Anything would be an upgrade in my opinion.
    Ahahaha! I've actually got a Fox Float CTD Evo Series and it's insanely stiff, although I ride with 30% SAG.

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