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  1. #1
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    Manitou Mattoc

    Who's gett'n one, got one and who's ridden one? Whats your thoughts?

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    Want one, but I don't think you'll find anybody whose ridden one yet, as it will be the end of this month (at least) before they are available. The only review/preview I've seen so far is from a German MTB site.
    Looks like a really good fork and some of the guys here who absolutely love their Manitou forks have basically convinced me to give them a go.
    The biggest issue was with Manitou revealing it so long ago and then.... nothing for at least 4 months. Kind of a weird way to do business, given the fact that the opposition (RS with the Pike, X-Fusion etc) have been going great guns in the intervening period.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    Do you have any idea how long it took the X-fusion Sweep to actually become available?
    I am curious toothe Mattoc and Sweep both look nice. Pike prices aren't dropping any time soon.

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    That's the other thing that is very tempting about the Mattoc, even the top Pro model is priced very competitively to the Pike. The only issue I think we'll have in NZ though is that I got my LBS to ring the local distributors of Manitou to see exactly how much they would cost, only to be told "we are going out of Manitou". Means I will have to likely go through CRC to get one.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    I figured it was a little early for any type of feedback, it'll come soon enough.

    I run Avalanche products both ends and can't see any reason to move anywhere else, except in the Manitou direction. The only thing that might hold me back is the fact of Avy's mid valve. That type of setup is amazing for preventing brake dive. I've had a crack at riding a 29er setup with a current Pike and a Wilson setup with last years 888. Now taking into consideration that I think both forks could have been better tuned and the lack of time I had on both bikes, I still felt uncomfortable when time came to drop the anchor's. Especially on the 29er, I felt like I was going to endo that thing. It felt like the brake dive was using up half of the available travel. I just shook my head.

    Which begs the question, which part of TPC+ four dimensional damper would help with brake dive? I think it either boils down to the pressure or velocity dependent circuits. I'd love to learn more.

    I see on Manitou's site they now are calling for a spring time release. I thought their time frame from when they released to their original December goal seemed pretty normal. And even late March seems okay.

  6. #6
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    Manitou Mattoc

    The Mattoc has been available at Pricepoint for a while now. I really thought about it but ended up with a Sweep. I'm still interested in a review when they start appearing

    http://www.pricepoint.com/Brand/Mani...-Fork-2014.axd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hangtime View Post
    The Mattoc has been available at Pricepoint for a while now. I really thought about it but ended up with a Sweep. I'm still interested in a review when they start appearing

    Manitou Mattoc Pro 160mm Tapered QR15 27.5 Fork 2014 | Manitou | Brand | www.PricePoint.com
    No it's not. If you go to the checkout it says "backordered". Same with every other online retailer. It is not available yet.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    Sigh.....

    Ive been extremely happy with my Dorado on my DH bike the last couple years, and unhappy with a Fox 36 and Lyrik RC2DH on my AM bike.

    So, Dorado tech in a 160 AM fork is exactly what the Dr ordered for me, but......just how long will it be?!

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    Even if it is another couple of months, I'm still willing to wait.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    got a link to that german review?

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    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenseMack10 View Post
    Sigh.....

    Ive been extremely happy with my Dorado on my DH bike the last couple years, and unhappy with a Fox 36 and Lyrik RC2DH on my AM bike.

    So, Dorado tech in a 160 AM fork is exactly what the Dr ordered for me, but......just how long will it be?!
    I mind cant let go of time the Dorardo, Revox and I had together. Happy day's which had never been quite the same..

  13. #13
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    Looks like we might be close to actually seeing the Mattoc - Dig In ? Production Versions of the Manitou Mattoc Trail Suspension Forks are Here

    It's looking good, that's for sure. Main change from the pre-production models looks to be the design of the knob/dials. The axle system looks kind of neat too.

    Now just hope it lives up to it's hype.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Looks like we might be close to actually seeing the Mattoc - Dig In ? Production Versions of the Manitou Mattoc Trail Suspension Forks are Here

    It's looking good, that's for sure. Main change from the pre-production models looks to be the design of the knob/dials. The axle system looks kind of neat too.

    Now just hope it lives up to it's hype.
    Looking good! I can't wait to hear the ride reports. I love my Nixon but would love to switch to a Mattoc!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)
    You're making me jealous! Can't wait for your review.

    Biggest issue I'm going to have is that the NZ distributor of Manitou is no longer going to be getting Manitou forks, so my options are to wait until someone else picks them up (which could be months, if at all) or get a pair from CRC for about NZ$1000, but I'll end up having to pay about $200 import duty I'm hoping that they will be worth it.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)

    Yes! Pics, pics and more pics!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Yes! Pics, pics and more pics!
    Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine

    Der erste Eindruck zhlt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de

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    Do you think you can add a third spacer and shim it down to 130mm?

    From the above link.
    Manitou Mattoc-manitou-travel.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip D View Post
    Do you think you can add a third spacer and shim it down to 130mm?

    From the above link.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Manitou Travel.jpg 
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    Regarding the 27.5 fork I assume? That sound like a question for the guys at Mantiou, drop em a line. In my experience they'll get back to you pretty damn quick.

    Is that some of the instructions and info that you got with the fork? Looks well detailed. What other info came with the package?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    It looks a lot more stout in that pic than the advertisement pic's I've seen. I'm looking forward to your thought's and pic's as well. The pressure's on mate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Regarding the 27.5 fork I assume? That sound like a question for the guys at Mantiou, drop em a line. In my experience they'll get back to you pretty damn quick.

    Is that some of the instructions and info that you got with the fork? Looks well detailed. What other info came with the package?
    Yeah, they're really good but they'll give me the book answer. I was hoping someone a lot smarter than me can look at it and say Yes. I had a bunch of questions about shim stacks on my tower pro and I ended up having an email exchange with one of their engineers who sorted me out. I thought that was pretty nice.

    It's going on a Bantam and only want 130mm in the front. At 220 pounds, not interested in 32mm forks anymore.

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    I wonder if we can get hold of more detailed drawing's... It would probably answer some questions if we could get some accurate measurements on both 26er and 27.5er spring assemblies.

    Mullen if your lurk'n around, chime in mate....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    You're making me jealous! Can't wait for your review.

    Biggest issue I'm going to have is that the NZ distributor of Manitou is no longer going to be getting Manitou forks, so my options are to wait until someone else picks them up (which could be months, if at all) or get a pair from CRC for about NZ$1000, but I'll end up having to pay about $200 import duty I'm hoping that they will be worth it.
    I'd be interested in trying a mattoc as well[ sick of the pike hype] but in my experience manitou support in Nz is non existant. If CRC don't stock it your stuffed,In my case a simple item like a mars spring. Very little online support anywhere else.

    I don't want to ambush another thread but if you want a affordable over achiever for your MV then i highly recommend
    Bicycle - 2014 Marzocchi 55 CR

    The distributors were very prompt in returning emails and had a rebound knob in stock[ plastic rubbish unfortunately] As you can expect better service than Fox, But i never ever recieved a response back from rock shox so that kind of sets the stage in NZ.

    I'm using one on my WR 26" set at 150mm even though it will take 650B. Huge improvement over a Rlti rev. It's 1/2 the price of my 2013 F160 and only marginally down in performance. Very very good fork. Bit hefty though if your running it as a 150mm fork.

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    Wow, didn't realise Bicycle had them so cheap. I'd looked at Marz before, but the costs were all well over $1300, even for the 55CR. Could be worth considering if the Mattoc isn't going to have any support, as like you say, if something breaks, I could have a very expensive (although very pretty) paperweight.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Thanks! I love translating tools: I keep seeing things like this:

    "Horny she reflected. Got in 27.5 yesterday 2 Mattocs"

    What word in german gets converted to horny!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Thanks! I love translating tools: I keep seeing things like this:

    "Horny she reflected. Got in 27.5 yesterday 2 Mattocs"

    What word in german gets converted to horny!
    Geil= Horny: in a sexually sense and if you just find something very good alternatively to "cool" the mattoc works hammer, fantastic or geil ;-) or has geile Leistung= good performance

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    I know that according to the manufacturer, this option does not exist but would it be possible to configurate the 27.5" model with 170 mm of travel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)

    Pro or Expert? I so excited for this fork, and so bummed it doesnt have a 20mm axle option though (I dont want to take the time to switch my wheel). I picked up a Revelation to get me through this summer since I didnt think the Mattoc would be released even close to this early in the year. Looking forward to the ride report. If it works even close to as good as it sounds, It will be the best 160mm fork on the market.

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    Manitou Mattoc

    Excited about this fork so much I pre-ordered with a shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Pro or Expert? I so excited for this fork, and so bummed it doesnt have a 20mm axle option though (I dont want to take the time to switch my wheel). I picked up a Revelation to get me through this summer since I didnt think the Mattoc would be released even close to this early in the year. Looking forward to the ride report. If it works even close to as good as it sounds, It will be the best 160mm fork on the market.

    Here is the Link to the German Test of mine and other users. I tried to keep the German simple so that google translator hopefully will not make such a great mess out of it in eglish.
    The first 3 messages from me respresent the complete general data and my report that I have at hands in the moment ;-)
    To keep it simple: Please only ask questions in german or english. Not everybody speeks spanish, russian, chinese or something else ;-)

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Here is the Link to the German Test of mine and other users. I tried to keep the German simple so that google translator hopefully will not make such a great mess out of it in eglish.
    The first 3 messages from me respresent the complete general data and my report that I have at hands in the moment ;-)
    To keep it simple: Please only ask questions in german or english. Not everybody speeks spanish, russian, chinese or something else ;-)

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de
    Thanks. I don't read german but appreciate your trying to help the rest of us out! From the site, it looks like this fork is a winner!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Thanks. I don't read german but appreciate your trying to help the rest of us out! From the site, it looks like this fork is a winner!

    use the google translator.I tried to keep the german simple, so that it will hopefully be translated into something that can be understood ;-)

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    Thanks for the review. Looks like a real player. Along with Marz new offerings, plenty of choice besides Fox or RS for 2014.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I'd be interested in trying a mattoc as well[ sick of the pike hype] but in my experience manitou support in Nz is non existant. If CRC don't stock it your stuffed,In my case a simple item like a mars spring. Very little online support anywhere else.

    I don't want to ambush another thread but if you want a affordable over achiever for your MV then i highly recommend
    Bicycle - 2014 Marzocchi 55 CR

    The distributors were very prompt in returning emails and had a rebound knob in stock[ plastic rubbish unfortunately] As you can expect better service than Fox, But i never ever recieved a response back from rock shox so that kind of sets the stage in NZ.

    I'm using one on my WR 26" set at 150mm even though it will take 650B. Huge improvement over a Rlti rev. It's 1/2 the price of my 2013 F160 and only marginally down in performance. Very very good fork. Bit hefty though if your running it as a 150mm fork.
    I REALLY wanted a Mattoc but couldn't wait and wasn't crazy about dropping $850. Ended up getting a 2013 Marzocchi CR on closeout. What a beastly fork. Fairly simple compared to others but well executed. And Marz will take your calls and answer all your dumb questions.

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    Translator sucked. Care to give us a cliffs notes on the fork in english?

  37. #37
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    Its horny don't you know!

    Actually, I used the google translator and it worked OK. Seems like the fork is stiff as a Magura, which is a good thing. It also seems that the fork is plush with a soft feel to it. Horny good!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 92SE-R View Post
    Translator sucked. Care to give us a cliffs notes on the fork in english?
    You can summ it up, that it works like a mini Dh Fork. Really eats up large obstacles with good control. Better than the LYrik DH of one of the other users. He says in rock gardens the mattoc is much superior to the Mico DH. I was reminded of my 2012 DEville, which works like a mini DH Fork. The mattoc only needs a break-in time, to become more sensitive. BUt although it has a good management of its travel and uses it when needed, it wont bottom out. The HBO really works great and the supportive feel the fork gives you is really good, when moving on the front wheel or coming over a large rock and flying directly into the next, what could throw you off with another fork which tends to dive. In this respect I like it even more than the Deville, because with my weight of 92 Kilos even with almost closed HSC I was regularly able to bottom the french girl out.
    Every knob really actually brings a noticeable change in contrast to fox or rs. Not as much as my vengeance HLR (which is the Double barrel under the forks refferrign to the range), but you can feel it and it is that much you can sufficiently tune the fork to your riding style and track.
    It brings really good traction on the small chatter but still you can use jumps properly. The fork wont swallow every small jump, so that you still can play with the terrain.
    The weight is claimed to be around 1877 GRams. We had 3 specimen with weights of 1868, 1906 and 1908 grams. So real world weight is only varying about 30 grams to the claimed one; sometimes even a few grams lighter. Id say, this is good.
    The Mattoc is only at 55% of the DEvilles price (1139 Deville 170mm vs 616 for the mAttoc Pro-> best price which I could find at german inet shops), is lighter, stiffer (stiff as Pike what I was told from a Enduro Racer who prefers the Mattoc on his race bike), the axle is great (can remove or put it in in <4 sec), you can change travel, you can convert between 26-27.5, service everything and tune on your own, parts are available and Manitou offers reliable communication for questions and warranty issues. If you were looking for a new fork I would definetly recommend this one. I havent ridden a Pike and cant compare it. But even if was "only" the same level as the Pike, Id take the Mattoc because of all the options. And as I was not let done by the great Manitou when compared to BOS and the Vengeance HLR Id say the Mattoc passes the test.
    Love it..... its geil-> horny ...ergggh awesome!

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    Thanks! Man cant wait. My distributors dont have them in stock yet.

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    Thanks mate! +1 rep coming at ya.

    Some good comparisons there, I like the fact that a 92kg rider considers it a stiff fork!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Thanks mate! +1 rep coming at ya.

    Some good comparisons there, I like the fact that a 92kg rider considers it a stiff fork!

    let s put it this way. I suppose it won't be as stiff as my 36 stanchioned vengeance with 20mm axle.but during testing there was no moment where I felt it wasn't precise enough to go where I wanted to.and the racer which I talked of said there was no difference to the 35mm pike ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    let s put it this way. I suppose it won't be as stiff as my 36 stanchioned vengeance with 20mm axle.but during testing there was no moment where I felt it wasn't precise enough to go where I wanted to.and the racer which I talked of said there was no difference to the 35mm pike ;-)
    Ahh, after re-reading the review I now realize my comment is a little out of context.

    FWIW, I think a fork (not referring to the Mattoc) with a little say "deflection" is not a bad thing as long as the damper is quality enough to compensate and keep the bike/rider heading in the right direction. For example, I run a Lyrik with an Avalanche cartridge, before the modification was made I felt there was a little deflection while pushing it. Once the mod was made I now feel now that the fork can be pushed harder but more importantly hold a line with without a problem.

    Another question, what shock was used during the test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Ahh, after re-reading the review I now realize my comment is a little out of context.

    FWIW, I think a fork (not referring to the Mattoc) with a little say "deflection" is not a bad thing as long as the damper is quality enough to compensate and keep the bike/rider heading in the right direction. For example, I run a Lyrik with an Avalanche cartridge, before the modification was made I felt there was a little deflection while pushing it. Once the mod was made I now feel now that the fork can be pushed harder but more importantly hold a line with without a problem.

    Another question, what shock was used during the test?
    a Evolver ISX 6 tuned for my bike.actually there is a vector Air waiting to be tested,but I still miss the rest of the hardware to fit it :-/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Even if it is another couple of months, I'm still willing to wait.
    CRC has the Mattoc Pro in stock now. Get'em before they're gone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    CRC has the Mattoc Pro in stock now. Get'em before they're gone!
    So why is the 160mm version the only one available right now? Granted you can take it apart and adjust it but if I'm spending that kind of money I really don't want to have to take the thing apart the minute I get it. If I wanted to do that I would buy Fox.

  46. #46
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    Manitou Mattoc

    I believe that's how they come.

  47. #47
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    For the record, the Mattoc is finally available, is only available aftermarket in the 160mm version (at least for 27.5), does come with a set of travel spacers to take it down to 150mm, and has not exactly the best decal application in the world.

    And don't ask me for a ride report. We are at least a good month away from our trails being rideable. Stupid winter won't die.

    Manitou Mattoc-mattoc.jpg

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    I think Chain Reaction have had 26" and 650B 160 in stock for a couple of weeks .

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    still listed as backordered on price point though.

  50. #50
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    Anyone can walk me through the differences between the three levels? Pro, Expert, Comp?

    I honestly can't tell the difference between the Pro and Expert, other than the Expert not using a cartridge and having the damper in leg, like the normal TPC stuff.

    Other than that, they look the same, but the expert being slightly heavier. Still under 2kg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Anyone can walk me through the differences between the three levels? Pro, Expert, Comp?

    I honestly can't tell the difference between the Pro and Expert, other than the Expert not using a cartridge and having the damper in leg, like the normal TPC stuff.

    Other than that, they look the same, but the expert being slightly heavier. Still under 2kg.
    You are right, the Expert is only a little heavier, but has the same features.

    The Comp uses the Mars Air spring (coil and air in series), a simpler ABS+ damper, fixed hydraulic bottom-out, and less machining for more weight. It is basically a longer travel stiffer Minute.

  52. #52
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    Manitou Mattoc

    Have any forks shown up in the states? Still look unavailable here.

  53. #53
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    Chain Reaction Cycles will ship it to the US for free.

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    Manitou Mattoc

    Quote Originally Posted by D_K View Post
    Chain Reaction Cycles will ship it to the US for free.
    I want to give my LBS a chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flml99 View Post
    I know that according to the manufacturer, this option does not exist but would it be possible to configurate the 27.5" model with 170 mm of travel?
    Nope. Not possible.

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    Looks like Expert is the best choice considering the price and only weight difference

    I think I'll order one tomorrow as Pike is ridiculously expensive here and nothing else is available for 650b with 34-35 uppers
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    Quote Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Looks like Expert is the best choice considering the price and only weight difference

    I think I'll order one tomorrow as Pike is ridiculously expensive here and nothing else is available for 650b with 34-35 uppers
    I would actually prefer the Expert over the Pro. The added oil volume from the in leg damper will do a better job staying cool compared to the cartridge version.

  58. #58
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    The Pike's can be had cheaper but you have to keep an eye out. I think once the supply chain gets filled up, the Mattoc is going to be the better bang for the buck though. I just like all of the good ol' metal parts in it (i.e. no exploding Charger Damper). But from my parking lot ride on the one I just bought, it's definitely a fork that will need a little breaking in before it shines. The adjustments all make a very definite affect on the fork's behavior though which should make dialing it in a lot easier.

    The only odd thing I have found so far is that the lowers aren't the same diameter all the way down. They have a couple of bulges in them. I wonder if that is on purpose or if I got a "special" one.

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    Is there service guide for mattoc? Should i put some oil in the lowers right from the start?
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    Quote Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Is there service guide for mattoc? Should i put some oil in the lowers right from the start?
    There is not full service guide yet but there are some set-up and travel modification manuals:

    Support | Manitou

    Checking oil-bath levels are never a bad thing, as long as you know what you are doing.
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    Set up manual Has nothing about oil levels. Sorry. Nothing else there is useful either.
    I added oil to lowers as standard with Fox and RS cause they were bone dry... Out of factory.
    Is damping oil in the uppers separate from lubricating oil in mattoc?

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    Getting so close to ordering this fork. I just want one solid review to come out besides the one that shows up on bike-radar (4.5 out of 5). It looks solid, and I have had great experiences with Manitou customer service in the past.

    I did get info back from Manitou, and the fork is going to be convertible from the 27.5in version down to the 26in version by simply removing the lower spacers.

    I do not know if the 26in version comes with those spacers in the box, etc.

    Therefor, I am ordering the 27.5in version, de-lower spacering it, and running it on my 26in bike.


    Who in this thread ACTUALLY HAS the fork in hand, and what are you impressions?
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  63. #63
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    Hopefully i will have mine tomorrow so I will be back with some impressions on Monday
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    Where did you order from goRz?
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    I'm from Poland so I think it's of no use to you, but: Mattoc EXPERT Manitou | Widelce, Cz??ci | Velo
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    Quote Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Set up manual Has nothing about oil levels. Sorry. Nothing else there is useful either.
    I added oil to lowers as standard with Fox and RS cause they were bone dry... Out of factory.
    Is damping oil in the uppers separate from lubricating oil in mattoc?
    Did it come with a manual? I would call Manitou to get the amount needed for the bath oil. Yes, the oil used for the damper is separate.
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    Why is Chain Reaction Cycles so expensive for this part? I feel like they usually have great deals, just not today.
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    I have the Pro version mounted up to my Bronson. It comes with no useful documentation and 2 travel spacers to take it down to 150mm and 140mm. Check out their instructions on doing the travel adjustment for how to take the fork apart and how much oil it needs. It does require some special tools or the modification of some tools.

    I haven't been able to do much more than ride mine around around my driveway right now. We will be lucky if our trails are open by the end of this month.

    *EDIT* The bike radar review is crap btw. They complain about its weight when its only 16 grams heavier than the Pike. They also whine that the tuning is subtle and hard to do which is pure BS.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_K View Post

    *EDIT* The bike radar review is crap btw. They complain about its weight when its only 16 grams heavier than the Pike. They also whine that the tuning is subtle and hard to do which is pure BS.
    Bike Radar's "reviews" are usually next to useless the majority of the time. Minimal testing done on what's being reviewed, ratings that don't match the reviews..... so, all in all, pretty much not the most reliable site for basing your next purchase on.
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    If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
    Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
    26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
    Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
    (I can see into the future on this one)
    Quote Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    Getting so close to ordering this fork. I just want one solid review to come out besides the one that shows up on bike-radar (4.5 out of 5). It looks solid, and I have had great experiences with Manitou customer service in the past.

    I did get info back from Manitou, and the fork is going to be convertible from the 27.5in version down to the 26in version by simply removing the lower spacers.

    I do not know if the 26in version comes with those spacers in the box, etc.

    Therefor, I am ordering the 27.5in version, de-lower spacering it, and running it on my 26in bike.


    Who in this thread ACTUALLY HAS the fork in hand, and what are you impressions?

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    I'm convinced Bike Radar copy-pastes every single one of their Manitou "reviews". All of them say something like "with its narrow stance and sloped crown the fork is flexy and twists more than its competitors", and this is on everything from an R7 to the Mattoc. Which is complete BS. I've ridden all those forks except the Mattoc and every one of them is at least as stiff as anything else in its class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
    Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
    26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
    Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
    (I can see into the future on this one)

    How do you have this information? I think I can see the fine print you are reading on post #19. I did email Manitou directly, but now I need to get more information because it seems like you are correct.

    I will get back in contact with Manitou and let everyone know.
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    From Manitou support directly:

    Changing the plunger is required to change wheel sizes. The plungers come in the box (except for the early launch forks, they are available for free though by contacting us.) So if you buy a 26 fork it can be converted to 27.5 or vice versa without purchasing any extra parts. Part will eiher be in the box or you can get them from us.

    One thing you do have to remember though is 27.5 forks have a 44mm offset at the crown, 26in forks have 41mm offset. That will not change when converting obviously, more just something to be mindful of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    From Manitou support directly:

    Changing the plunger is required to change wheel sizes. The plungers come in the box (except for the early launch forks, they are available for free though by contacting us.) So if you buy a 26 fork it can be converted to 27.5 or vice versa without purchasing any extra parts. Part will eiher be in the box or you can get them from us.

    One thing you do have to remember though is 27.5 forks have a 44mm offset at the crown, 26in forks have 41mm offset. That will not change when converting obviously, more just something to be mindful of.
    Now, in my mind I cannot see 3mm of offset difference really mattering as far as my overall geometry goes. Anyone have any thoughts there?
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    I tend to do research on items that cost this much so as not to be disappointed when I plop down my hard earned money.
    I just wonder if Manitou was exactly sure on which spacer that you were meaning when you emailed them?
    I have a pro version on order with my LBS. Waiting like most or all North Americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    How do you have this information? I think I can see the fine print you are reading on post #19. I did email Manitou directly, but now I need to get more information because it seems like you are correct.

    I will get back in contact with Manitou and let everyone know.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    I tend to do research on items that cost this much so as not to be disappointed when I plop down my hard earned money.
    I just wonder if Manitou was exactly sure on which spacer that you were meaning when you emailed them?
    I have a pro version on order with my LBS. Waiting like most or all North Americans.
    Based on the above response I posted from Manitou, I am highly confident this fork will convert from 26in to 27.5in, and will include all parts to do so. Read above.
    GG Smash

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I'm convinced Bike Radar copy-pastes every single one of their Manitou "reviews". All of them say something like "with its narrow stance and sloped crown the fork is flexy and twists more than its competitors", and this is on everything from an R7 to the Mattoc. Which is complete BS. I've ridden all those forks except the Mattoc and every one of them is at least as stiff as anything else in its class.
    So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
    Unfortuantely spending some time on a fork yourself[ not just a quick ride] is the only way to tell.

    I like the reverse arch concept . It works really well on my Dt Swiss forks but their arch is massive compared to the Manitou version.

  78. #78
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    In post #62 you mentioned only removing the lower spacer, not replacing the entire plunger.
    Replacing the plunger changes the entire game.

    Thanks for the update though.
    Quote Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    Based on the above response I posted from Manitou, I am highly confident this fork will convert from 26in to 27.5in, and will include all parts to do so. Read above.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
    LOL, I swear that every fork on the market gets the same two reviews:

    Reviewer 1
    -Opinion A - The fork is a pig.
    -Opinion B - The fork is uber stiff.
    -Opinion C - The fork's settings don't do crap.
    -Opinion D - The fork's tuning is good.

    Reviewer 2
    -Opinion A - The fork is really light.
    -Opinion B - The fork is a noodle.
    -Opinion C - The fork's settings work well.
    -Opinion D - The fork's tuning sucks.


  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
    Unfortuantely spending some time on a fork yourself[ not just a quick ride] is the only way to tell.

    I like the reverse arch concept . It works really well on my Dt Swiss forks but their arch is massive compared to the Manitou version.

    I am 200 lbs and have ridden both Manitou Black, Manitou Nixon and Fox 32mm and Fox 36mm forks. For the most part, I found the Manitou 30mm fork to be as stiff as the Fox 32 mm fork (with QR). The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.
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  81. #81
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    So I've installed my Mattoc Expert and went on first ride today. Locally we have hills rather than mountains and no real rocks.
    Anyway, My current summary is: fork is stiff, doesn't dive. Ride is stable and inspires confidence. It's not super plush but I might be running too much air and I Don't mind.
    BUT the only knob that made real difference is rebound knob

    I also have problem with Scale in Manitou materials. E.g. According to set up guide Slow compression can be set from 0 to 4, where weirdly 0 means max compression!. However on the dial, there is normal + and - sign. Now, does + refer to amount of damping or to numbers from set up guide?? In later case +would actually mean less damping.
    I'm confused. Anybody knows how this works?
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  82. #82
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    The +/- signs on the dial mean more or less damping, respectively, same as every other fork. What the tuning guide does is count clicks from the fully closed position, in other words, spin the dial to the + side as far as it goes, then back it off the number of clicks that's recommended in the guide.

    For example, to do the Flow Trail tune on your Expert, spin all dials to the + side all the way, then back off rebound by 1-3 clicks, high speed compression by 1-2 clicks, low speed compression by 0-2 clicks, and HBO gets backed out all the way and added in as needed.

  83. #83
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    Thanks, although this would do just fine
    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    The +/- signs on the dial mean more or less damping, respectively, same as every other fork.
    Anyway I assumed it's like that, so I still kinda think that compression knobs dont make much difference...
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  84. #84
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    Manitou Mattoc

    Looks like pinkbike is going to have a review soon. Check out their Facebook page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I am 200 lbs and have ridden both Manitou Black, Manitou Nixon and Fox 32mm and Fox 36mm forks. For the most part, I found the Manitou 30mm fork to be as stiff as the Fox 32 mm fork (with QR). The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.
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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.
    Fore aft rigidity?
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Fore aft rigidity?
    Fore/aft rigidity is mostly about the steerer and crown. Stanchion size is a small player as 2x32mm tubes are a whole lot stiffer than one 28.6mm tube.

    Unfortunately I haven't ridden a F36 on the same trail as a Nixon to compare directly.
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    Anyone hear anything yet about an actual US release date?
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    I'm shocked it's available earlier in Poland than in US
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I admire your Brand loyalty.
    What brand loyalty?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    I'm shocked it's available earlier in Poland than in US
    Me too. I'm hoping that they are timing it with this weekends Sea Otter Classic...fingers crossed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
    Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
    26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
    Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
    (I can see into the future on this one)
    this is not completely correct!
    The mattoc is made to be converted between travel and wheel sizes!But you need to change the part only the rebound assembly where the hbo is put on..
    It is a part which was to Come with every mattoc but it only will when they finally catch Up with the orders.if it was Not added to your package,write manitou tech support and you will get it as soon as available.then you can convert it to the other size ;-))

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    Got a Mattoc 650b 160 last week, to replace my Pike. Feel great. Steering feels touch different (offset) and I think the Pikes are marginally stiffer. Very plush off the top, grip is great and damping can be set up easily. The air leg is very smooth, almost coil like. I would be interested in some volume reducers for the air leg.

  94. #94
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    You've replaced the new Pike with it?!
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    Got pikes on slash, had creaking steerer and air leg troubles. Got replacement on warranty. I've had bad luck with RS for a while now. So trying something new

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Got pikes on slash, had creaking steerer and air leg troubles. Got replacement on warranty. I've had bad luck with RS for a while now. So trying something new
    What's your opinion on compression knobs effect?
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    Only had one real ride so far. LS is affective and noticable, but much more suble comparee to fox or RS. HS not sure about yet. Running 2 clicks from open. HBO has dramatic effect

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    So is it plusher than pike?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Got a Mattoc 650b 160 last week, to replace my Pike. Feel great. Steering feels touch different (offset) and I think the Pikes are marginally stiffer. Very plush off the top, grip is great and damping can be set up easily. The air leg is very smooth, almost coil like. I would be interested in some volume reducers for the air leg.
    I'm interested in your comment about volume reducers. I've spent the last week first riding an air-spring Dorado, then my re-tuned coil sprung TPC+ nixon and finally being sidelined with a broken helmet and black eye.

    But anyway. Were you wanting more progression in the spring to hold up the mid-stroke better or to be able to run softer start of stroke for the same end of stroke?
    I was wondering if it was more damper tuning that you needed rather than spring.
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Fore/aft rigidity is mostly about the steerer and crown. Stanchion size is a small player as 2x32mm tubes are a whole lot stiffer than one 28.6mm tube.
    No kidding, and what do 36mm stanchions require? A bigger crown.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No kidding, and what do 36mm stanchions require? A bigger crown.
    You can hold 32mm tubes with a beefy crown and 36mm tubes with a flexy one.
    Tube size alone means very little.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm interested in your comment about volume reducers. I've spent the last week first riding an air-spring Dorado, then my re-tuned coil sprung TPC+ nixon and finally being sidelined with a broken helmet and black eye.

    But anyway. Were you wanting more progression in the spring to hold up the mid-stroke better or to be able to run softer start of stroke for the same end of stroke?
    I was wondering if it was more damper tuning that you needed rather than spring.
    I mentioned volume reducers speculatively, out of curiosity after using them with the pike. Used In the pike they provided a better dynamic ride and support but affected small bump performance. I think the Mattoc air leg provides better performance overall.

    More mid valving would be a better solution in both forks.

    I am a light rider, like to ride pretty hard and coming from a dh background I am looking for dh like performance from my forks. I understand the limitations of travel and chassis with these forks.

    With regards plushness I don't think there is much difference between the pike and mattoc.

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    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?
    When I was talking to one of the guys from Hayes he said they wanted to start with the "Enduro" market in Europe where they think they have the best chance at competing with the Pike. He also mentioned that a 29er version could be made but they started with the 26/650b fork as they are actually the same. 650B version has a 10mm spacer in it so the tire doesn't hit the crown.

    They know the demand is there for a 29er version, Hayes just seems to be confused at how to market it's products in a constantly changing world of suspension as they are always behind IMO.

    If Hayes made a 29er Mattoc they would want to make a 140mm-160mm fork so not to directly compete with the Minute but the demand is for something as low as 100mm and definitely a 120mm Mattoc would sell too. I would buy one.

    Performace wise, people I have talked to said it's easily as good as stiff as the Pike and has a better damper. The fork is very tunable too. I saw one with 100mm of travel on a park bike. No real modifications except 60mm of travel spacers and damper tuning for the dramatically lower travel.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?
    Isn't the only 29" anything being launched now just the stuff that was 3 years late to the party?

    I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't see 29" ever having a future in long travel bikes. It's a touring wheel size. 300 riders at the enduro race last weekend and only a handful on 29's.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  106. #106
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    Nope, longer travel forks of suitable stanchion diameter only showed up 2.5 years ago with the F34 and then the Trace and now the PIKE. They don't offer a 140mm fork, they were 'sposed to be releasing one, but I've not seen it.

    To me 140mm is not "long travel" it's about avg for a Trail bike, for sure down here it's just about the most popular length, loads of SJ FSRs and the like. As for popular, maybe not at Enduro races, but they sure as hell are as general purpose trail bikes, I count the amount of people on 26ers down here, it's easier than counting the 29ers and when I was in CO years ago was pretty much a similar experience with regards to the people I rode with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Isn't the only 29" anything being launched now just the stuff that was 3 years late to the party?

    I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't see 29" ever having a future in long travel bikes. It's a touring wheel size. 300 riders at the enduro race last weekend and only a handful on 29's.
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  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Nope, longer travel forks of suitable stanchion diameter only showed up 2.5 years ago with the F34 and then the Trace and now the PIKE. They don't offer a 140mm fork, they were 'sposed to be releasing one, but I've not seen it.

    To me 140mm is not "long travel" it's about avg for a Trail bike, for sure down here it's just about the most popular length, loads of SJ FSRs and the like. As for popular, maybe not at Enduro races, but they sure as hell are as general purpose trail bikes, I count the amount of people on 26ers down here, it's easier than counting the 29ers and when I was in CO years ago was pretty much a similar experience with regards to the people I rode with.
    140mm is short for a 26" trail bike. I've was riding 145mm forks in 2000. But a 29" bike with 140mm has a head-tube height from the ground comparable to a 200mm 26" bike.

    The biggest single problem with 29" suspension is running out of room everywhere. The wheels simply take up too much space.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Tube size alone means very little.
    Just a litle disingenuous from an engineer? Point loads!!

    I remember German BIKE mag doing torsion and flex testing of forks when the 15QR debate surtfaced.
    From memory the tapered steerer did make as much difference as axle size in some cases but 36mm tubes was still streets ahead.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Just a litle disingenuous from an engineer? Point loads!!

    I remember German BIKE mag doing torsion and flex testing of forks when the 15QR debate surtfaced.
    From memory the tapered steerer did make as much difference as axle size in some cases but 36mm tubes was still streets ahead.
    Point loads? It's bending moment that's the biggest concern.

    Ze Germans weren't testing stanchion size in isolation. They were testing complete forks which happened to use different size stanchions. Lots and lots of other variables.
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  110. #110
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    Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make Maybe it's something shorter riders are worried about, but @ 6'2" with long arms and legs, 29ers fit me easily and perfectly, never had to run a stem slammed onto the headset yet, not even in my "XC" days when I ran about 2-3" bar to saddle drop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    140mm is short for a 26" trail bike. I've was riding 145mm forks in 2000. But a 29" bike with 140mm has a head-tube height from the ground comparable to a 200mm 26" bike.

    The biggest single problem with 29" suspension is running out of room everywhere. The wheels simply take up too much space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Point loads? It's bending moment that's the biggest concern.

    .
    Exactly and the steerer is held at two points about 120mm apart as compared to staunchions held only at the crown.

    Complete fork tests tell the complete picture so QED for 36mm forks and their supposedly flexy crowns and steerers?

    There must be a break even point where 40mm staunchions and longer travel overpower the 1 1/8 single crown but it seems 36mm and 160mm travel 1 1/8 single crown is fine.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Exactly so how can you justify your intial statement when a steerer is held at two points about 120mm apart as compared to staunchions held only at the crown.The moments are not to disimilar considering the main load is at the axle. There must be a break even point where 40mm staunchions and longer travel overpower the single crown but it seems 36mm and 160mm travel single crown is fine.
    I'm not following you here.
    The only forks which support the steerer at two points are dual crown and we're not discussing those. All single crown forks place a large bending moment load at the crown.

    It is the design of this area of the fork (steerer through crown to stanchion tubes) that determines the majority of the fore/aft stifness.

    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Complete fork tests tell the complete picture so QED for 36mm forks and their supposedly flexy crowns and steerers?
    But they offer no insight as to which features are responsible for the result.
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  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make Maybe it's something shorter riders are worried about, but @ 6'2" with long arms and legs, 29ers fit me easily and perfectly, never had to run a stem slammed onto the headset yet, not even in my "XC" days when I ran about 2-3" bar to saddle drop.
    My main point is for the same total height would you take a 140mm or less 29" bike, a 200+mm 26" bike or a 180mm 27" bike?

    The number of people who'd take the 140mm 29" are a niche rather than a majority so can't expect a wide component selection.
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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?
    Hayes have been very conservative with new models for Manitou, don't forget that too many models, too much new stuff and not enough focus on quality is what sunk Manitou eight years ago and led to Hayes picking up the pieces. I'm sure a 29er Mattoc will come.

    Regards the wider market I think in another three to four years long travel 29ers will be a big deal. Some of the bigger European brands are putting out very convincing 130mm+ 29ers right now (On One, BMC, Canyon, Rose) and the Spesh Enduro is getting mostly excellent reviews. Sooner or later the buying public will figure out that if 160mm equals smashing over rocks faster and 29er equals smashing over rocks faster, then 160mm + 29er must equal smashing over rocks even more faster. Right now it's tyres and price holding it back.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Regards the wider market I think in another three to four years long travel 29ers will be a big deal. Some of the bigger European brands are putting out very convincing 130mm+ 29ers right now (On One, BMC, Canyon, Rose) and the Spesh Enduro is getting mostly excellent reviews. Sooner or later the buying public will figure out that if 160mm equals smashing over rocks faster and 29er equals smashing over rocks faster, then 160mm + 29er must equal smashing over rocks even more faster. Right now it's tyres and price holding it back.
    How big do you think the rock smashing 29" market is?

    Given that much travel makes for an extremely tall bike best suited to tall riders and 29" wheels are not the choice for heavy duty usage.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm not following you here.
    It is the design of this area of the fork (steerer through crown to stanchion tubes) that determines the majority of the fore/aft stifness.
    .
    And Black is white.
    Somewhere along the way you drawing a long bow and assuming the steerer is nearly as long as the staunchions. You have contraints and that these days the steerer is only about 120 mm betwen centres and tapered . Where's your calculations to back up your theory with these constraints?
    Even common sense says that there's deflection after the crown in the steerer but the majority of the deflection is at the staunchion/ crown area.Even my seat of the pants testing between my 36 and 35mm forks and all my 32mm forks can tell that. Why not go back to 30mm staunchions with a taper steerer?

  117. #117
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    His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    And Black is white.
    Somewhere along the way you drawing a long bow and assuming the steerer is nearly as long as the staunchions. You have contraints and that these days the steerer is only about 120 mm betwen centres and tapered . Where's your calculations to back up your theory with these constraints?
    I haven't made any of the assumptions you claim. Steerer length is almost irrelevant, the spacing of headset bearings only affects the load within the steerer and headset as the bending load is resolved back to point loads at the bearings, it doesn't change the bending load at the crown where the largest moment is found.
    The biggest bending load in fork loaded fore/aft (i.e. braking) is at the top of the crown where it meets the lower headset bearing support.

    Give me some specifics and I'll happily run the calcs for you.
    For specific results You'll have to define:
    The steerer ID and OD.
    The crown cross section shape and dimensions.
    The stanchion ID and OD.
    Stanchion seperation.
    The fork length (crown to ground or crown to axle and wheel OD).
    The braking load.
    Materials for all of the above so we can obtain stiffness values.

    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Even common sense says that there's deflection after the crown in the steerer but the majority of the deflection is at the staunchion/ crown area.Even my seat of the pants testing between my 36 and 35mm forks and all my 32mm forks can tell that. Why not go back to 30mm staunchions with a taper steerer?
    Why do you assume the majority of the deflection is where the crown meets two stanchion tubes when one steerer tube is taking the same bending load?

    Why not go back to 30mm? Simple. Marketing.
    The public believe bigger is better and that bigger stanchions make for a stiffer fork. Just read Jm (aka Jayem)'s posts for examples of how rigourously people will defend marketing claims over engineering principles.

    I have a dual crown 30mm fork here and it's stiffer than damn near everything today. But DC trail forks didn't sell well because the public think it reduces turning radius. Yet I never hit the steering stops on any trail or switchback. I only stopped riding that fork because I needed a 20mm axle, the disc brakes kept pushing the QR axle around in the dropouts.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.
    *sigh*

    Go back and read what I actually wrote. It is not what you think I wrote.
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  120. #120
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    Take this war to the PM... because you are both crapping up this thread.
    GG Smash

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    How big do you think the rock smashing 29" market is?

    Given that much travel makes for an extremely tall bike best suited to tall riders and 29" wheels are not the choice for heavy duty usage.
    Much bigger than it was three years ago (when it was Lenz, Lenz and Lenz) and steadily growing. At the Mega last year there were a whole bunch of people on 29ers. It's been the same at other mass start/Enduro races here in Europe too, the number of people on 29ers has gone from none to quite a lot in a couple of years.

    Regards bar and frame height, a 160mm Pike 29 is 571mm axle-crown, a 200mm Boxxer is 568mm, so pretty tall. But, a lot of people ride around on a bike with an inch of spacers, 20mm (1inch) rise bars and often an angled stem too. Flat bars, flat (or negative rise) stem and a 5mm spacer and you've shaved 40mm off the bar height, which isn't far off where a lot of people are right now with 160mm 26ers (but still taller).

    The bar height issue isn't that big of a deal and the average male height in Europe is something like 5ft 9, there are more than enough tall riders who do or will want this kind of bike in the near future. For short people 650b is the new big thing, but that doesn't preclude tall people from getting something else.

    Also, Fox, BOS, MRP and (rumoured) DVO are all making long travel 29er forks for the near future, they must think there's a market there too.

  122. #122
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    Manitou Mattoc

    You guys seriously need to stop and take it up some where else

  123. #123
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    Why, we are discussing the MATTOC, are we not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdcatnau View Post
    You guys seriously need to stop and take it up some where else
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Why, we are discussing the MATTOC, are we not?
    I think things have long deviated away from "why isn't the Mattoc coming in 29" to some completely irrelevant discussion that is diluting out any good information about this fork, it's performance, etc.
    GG Smash

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.
    A 36mm Fox Float is not miles away from a Nixon. And yes, for me, a 4.8 lb 32mm Nixon with 20mm axles, feels as stiff as a 4.3 lb, 36 mm Fox Float. From a suspension point of view, one is much better than the other.

    This is the same crap you keep spilling about the dw link being miles ahead of everything else...
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  126. #126
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    No talk of bushings yet WTF... Look at the length of the bushings inside that dual crown


    Boxxer
    Attachment 886103


    single crown Lyrik vv
    Attachment 886105
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I haven't made any of the assumptions you claim. Steerer length is almost irrelevant, the spacing of headset bearings only affects the load within the steerer and headset as the bending load is resolved back to point loads at the bearings, it doesn't change the bending load at the crown where the largest moment is found.
    The biggest bending load in fork loaded fore/aft (i.e. braking) is at the top of the crown where it meets the lower headset bearing support.

    Give me some specifics and I'll happily run the calcs for you.
    For specific results You'll have to define:
    The steerer ID and OD.
    The crown cross section shape and dimensions.
    The stanchion ID and OD.
    Stanchion seperation.
    The fork length (crown to ground or crown to axle and wheel OD).
    The braking load.
    Materials for all of the above so we can obtain stiffness values.



    Why do you assume the majority of the deflection is where the crown meets two stanchion tubes when one steerer tube is taking the same bending load?

    Why not go back to 30mm? Simple. Marketing.
    The public believe bigger is better and that bigger stanchions make for a stiffer fork. Just read Jm (aka Jayem)'s posts for examples of how rigourously people will defend marketing claims over engineering principles.

    I have a dual crown 30mm fork here and it's stiffer than damn near everything today. But DC trail forks didn't sell well because the public think it reduces turning radius. Yet I never hit the steering stops on any trail or switchback. I only stopped riding that fork because I needed a 20mm axle, the disc brakes kept pushing the QR axle around in the dropouts.
    At this point the Manitou Design team are cringing under their desks as the Manitou fan club runs out of control.

  128. #128
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    Sorry guys, Dougal is correct in regards to steerer/crown being the weak link in fwd/aft flex. Ht bearing spacing has nothing to do with it.

    I'd buy a 29 Mattoc over a Minute.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Sorry guys, Dougal is correct in regards to steerer/crown being the weak link in fwd/aft flex. Ht bearing spacing has nothing to do with it.

    I'd buy a 29 Mattoc over a Minute.
    Once again, yes, but that wasn't the point.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Elvis is dead along with the R7.

    Time to move on. There's too many variables and no one has proved anything, Just ruined mantou's PR and chance to move on with a new significant fork range instead of recycling old technology.

    I look forward to riding one with their unecessarily large diameter fashionable staunchions

    Perhaps the Manitou fan club you could ask for a special 30mm retro edition with Mars air or even elastomers.

  131. #131
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    25mm stanchions were the thing, RS Indy, Manitou Spyder...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  132. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    25mm stanchions were the thing, RS Indy, Manitou Spyder...
    Nope. Spyder was 28.6mm.
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nope. Spyder was 28.6mm.
    No one cares. GTFO. You're trolling so hard.

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    No one cares. GTFO. You're trolling so hard.
    Dude, you are the one who sounds like a troll.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
    Dude, you are the one who sounds like a troll.
    Really? As one of the only people in the thread to post specifically about the Manitou Mattoc and having one in flesh I find that extremely hard to believe..

    Oh wait... Is this thread about the stanchion diameters of forks from a decade or more ago? Perhaps we need a another self appointed expert to opine about the fore/aft stiffness of the Mattoc. I'm an engineer; I know things.

  136. #136
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    Soo.... back to the Mattoc... anything new to report??
    The world needs a huge socio-economic change...be it. We all need to ride more....

  137. #137
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    So the guy posting rubbish isn't a troll, but those who correct him are!

    Awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relayden View Post
    Soo.... back to the Mattoc... anything new to report??
    Right, so back to the Mattoc...

    I've had a gd amount of time on them now.

    Things to report.

    Running significantly more air than is recommended. ~70kg and running 65psi. I'm not saying the fork can't be set up better with the standard tune and adjustments, I'm just saying I haven't found that yet.

    Running from open HS 2clicks, LS 2 clicks, HBO 2clicks. R ~ 6 from closed.

    Grip is really gd and consistant on natural, rooty, loam trails, struggling a bit with hardpack setup for grip. Could be more a tyre and casing thing tho. Chassis stiffness etc- no complaints so far. Stiction, plushness of the top is gd and active through the stroke.

    I would say the damping feels better on the mattocs than pike.

    The only characteristics I haven't been able to tune in is LS support in the corners and brake dive. This is a major factor, so hopefully I can make it work or able to get it tuned by someone in the UK.

    Adding one more click of LS makes the ride a lot harsher and does not effect more of the support I want. It does increase the platform subtly lessoning bobbing while pedalling up hill (sat down) but is lost with more weight on the front wheel.

    the axle for me works great once you figure it out. Decals are not really to my liking, so I took most off. Fork looks gd now.

    Right, off for a birthday ride. I may try less air pressure, more damping and see how that works...

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    @Caol
    The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
    Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

    tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
    I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated!

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @Caol
    The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
    Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

    tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
    I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated!

    Actually, the abs+ shim stack is preloaded and mc2 is not. From what I remember, the HSC is adjusted by a spring putting pressure on the stack. The adjustment controls how much pressure the spring has on it. There is no threshold, the stack will flow oil in most situations, that's why it doesn't lock out. Lastly,mid stroke support will come mostly from the spring, not the damper.

  141. #141
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    I was purely theorizing, trying to wrap my head around the recommendation on the set-up guide. Looking at the link in your signature... can't argue with your experience
    Care to elaborate why Manitou recommends increasing the HSC to achieve better pedaling platform? How'd that affect the damper characteristics? Obviously I don't quite understand how the spring preload affects the stack so any insight would be helpful.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    I was purely theorizing, trying to wrap my head around the recommendation on the set-up guide. Looking at the link in your signature... can't argue with your experience
    Care to elaborate why Manitou recommends increasing the HSC to achieve better pedaling platform? How'd that affect the damper characteristics? Obviously I don't quite understand how the spring preload affects the stack so any insight would be helpful.
    HSC and LSC affect each other. When s shim stack is not preloaded, it will flow oil at times. (You can look at the linear abs+ shim stacks in the abs+ tuning guide to see what a non preloaded stack looks like) When the HSC gets stiffer, it forces more oil through the LSC port st low shaft speeds. This makes the LSC adjuster feel like it has a larger range, and would increase pedal efficiency.

    As for the spring, putting pressure on the stack with a spring is equivalent to adding shims to stack. The more pressure the spring puts on the stack, the more oil pressure is needed to flex the shims. Most shimmed dampers with HSC adjustments use this design to give you an adjustment range, including most rear shocks.

    Hope that helps

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    Thanks, got it!
    BTW are you sure MC2 shims are not bent for stack preloading, have you got the chance to see it disassembled? The pictures available on the internet don't show much detail, but if those diagrams are accurate (despite the low res) looks like the MC2 piston has a lip like ABS+

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    Thanks, got it!
    BTW are you sure MC2 shims are not bended for stack preloading, have you got the chance to see it disassembled? The pictures available on the internet don't show much detail, but if those diagrams are accurate (despite the low res) looks like the MC2 piston has a lip like ABS+
    I talked to a manitou rep and he made it sound like it was not preloaded. It may have the option for the end user or have a trail stack with slight preload though. The tech made it sound like a linear stack though.

  145. #145
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    So pretty much first-hand info
    Thanks!

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    This is great stuff guys. Thanks. I have good working knowledge of Rock Shox and Marzocchi products but never owned any Manitou.

    Been riding today and pushing the pace somewhat. Fork is really starting to impress me. Refined my set up some what. Went to ~67psi, speed up my rebound a click and reduced the hbo one click.

    I will try bit more HS later just to experiment.

    So, to clarify what are the tuning options for the mc2 damper?

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @Caol
    The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
    Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

    tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
    I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated!
    That's pretty much exactly how the Dorado damper works (with the additional complication of two compression pistons in TPC+). It uses a coil spring to preload the fixed compression stack for high speed adjustment. But I don't see a coil spring in the diagrams shown so far.
    Unfortunately I'll have to buy another bike with tapered head-tube to test one of these.

    I do agree on increasing the high speed compression damping to offer more midstroke support and easing up on the air pressure. The LSC can only help until the shims start to open.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  148. #148
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    Ok, now that I am on my computer and not my phone, I can write a little more to elaborate on the my previous posts.

    When I talked to the Manitou rep, he did not tell that the shim stack is not preloaded. Instead, he insinuated it in various ways when talking about the performance of the damper. Looking at the tech drawing, (assuming it is accurate), it appears to have a speed shim installed to make the stack have a very slight preload giving it what Manitou calls a "trail tune". This would mean the end user could remove the speed shim and get a full lock out "XC" tune by fully preloading the stack, or remove all preload off the shim stack by reducing the shim diameter, giving a linear tune. Hopefully this the drawing are correct and this is true, because it offers the most tuning options for the end user.

    I never talked to the Manitou rep about the HSC adjustment, 90% of forks(and rear shocks) with a HSC shim stack and HSC adjustment use a spring to add extra pressure on the stack. I assumed Manitou would follow suite as its the standard in these situations. Looking at the tech drawings closer, no obvious signs of how the HSC adjustment works is apparent. The one document says "directly adds preload to the stack", but in all honesty, I dont see how the design would accomplish this. Hopefully as more mattocs appear, some people will pull them apart and give us better insight as to how this happens. (and what shim stack comes stock, and what the piston looks like.)

    Hopefully we get someone to take apart the damper and post some detailed pics. It now has my curiosity peaked even more then before.

  149. #149
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    My thoughts exactly. Also on the link with the tech drawing there are a few more below of the rebound damping, which is also interesting and it is the part that makes the difference between Expert and Pro models
    I think only Mattoc owners with very good experience in suspension products would dare to open the damper at this time - currently no service manual is available and the oil weight/levels/important details on the servicing procedure are missing. So, basically we'd have to wait a bit more I guess I'll get the fork by that time nevertheless

  150. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Also on the link with the tech drawing there are a few more below of the rebound damping, which is also interesting and it is the part that makes the difference between Expert and Pro models
    I think only Mattoc owners with very good experience in suspension products would dare to open the damper at this time - currently no service manual is available and the oil weight/levels/important details on the servicing procedure are missing. So, basically we'd have to wait a bit more I guess I'll get the fork by that time nevertheless
    As a Mattoc owner I am keen to know what's going on inside and make sure at the very least things are lubed up nicely. To drop the lowers a very thin wall 8mm socket is needed (not available from M yet) for the air leg. Alternatively you can use a 4mm hex on the inside of the air valve while depressed. I'm slightly hesitant to do this as obviously its going to be hard to mate the shaft and lowers when re-assembling.

  151. #151
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    In this german thread there's a lot of info and on one of the last pages you can see a 650b Mattoc converted to 170mm - by removing the "DO NOT REMOVE" 10mm spacer at the bottom of the air spring shaft Obviously certain tires provide enough clearance with the crown at bottom out.... Point is those guys have managed to disassemble and re-assemble the lowers and the air spring, so it seems feasible without Manitou's special tools. After some modification of ordinary tools probably...
    Still, that won't get you anywhere near the damper side, so that remains unaccessible, for now.

  152. #152
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    The Germans have been busy...

    The photos show marginal clearance running 650b at 170mm. It is tempting, mainly to increase my ride height on the front end, as I have a Trek Slash with the tiny head tube.

    Yes it seem people have managed to drop the lowers without trouble. I guess I'll give it a go tomorrow or Friday.

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    The photos show marginal clearance running 650b at 170mm. It is tempting, mainly to increase my ride height on the front end, as I have a Trek Slash with the tiny head tube.
    As long as I understand it's not like running it at 170 will increase the fork height. Otherwise there should not be any clearance issue. Travel is increased at full compression, basically making it a 26" fork (with just the 650b offset).

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by savo View Post
    As long as I understand it's not like running it at 170 will increase the fork height. Otherwise there should not be any clearance issue. Travel is increased at full compression, basically making it a 26" fork (with just the 650b offset).
    Ah, yes you are right. I see

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Ah, yes you are right. I see
    I see you were comparing the mattoc to the pike... what can you say in term of chassis stiffness?

  156. #156
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    The only problem with running a 650b at 170 is you need to use the 26'' bikes bottoming cone. since the 650b version doesnt compress as far at full travel, they made the bottoming cone 10mm longer so it still works correctly. If you try running the stock 650b version with 170mm of travel, it will damage the damper if you bottom out the fork.

  157. #157
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    So is the bottoming cone adjustable, anyone seen a picture of the one from the expert or pro?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  158. #158
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    Im sticking with 160mm travel on my 650b fork. Not worth the hassle/ warranty negations for me.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by savo View Post
    I see you were comparing the mattoc to the pike... what can you say in term of chassis stiffness?
    Chassis stiffness are very similar. I think the mattocs have a touch more give shall we say. I think the wider platform of the Pikes gives a stiffer feel. I am 100% happy with the chassis of the mattoc so far. I have not however, in my eyes really pushed the fork yet. But on what I have rode - man made rock garden/ walkers trails there is not much difference. I am a light guy 69kg.

    In a few weeks ill smash a lap out on the fort william world cup track before it gets all groomed for the wc and report back.

  160. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Chassis stiffness are very similar. I think the mattocs have a touch more give shall we say. I think the wider platform of the Pikes gives a stiffer feel. I am 100% happy with the chassis of the mattoc so far. I have not however, in my eyes really pushed the fork yet. But on what I have rode - man made rock garden/ walkers trails there is not much difference. I am a light guy 69kg.

    In a few weeks ill smash a lap out on the fort william world cup track before it gets all groomed for the wc and report back.
    Thanx!

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Im sticking with 160mm travel on my 650b fork. Not worth the hassle/ warranty negations for me.
    For sure! Enjoy the fork and give us more feedback on the performance and how the adjustments affect the ride
    Last edited by imbecile; 04-24-2014 at 01:22 AM.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    So is the bottoming cone adjustable, anyone seen a picture of the one from the expert or pro?

    So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.

    Manitou Mattoc-mc2-2.jpg

    Bottoming cone is what is attached to the both dampers in the picture. when nearing full compression, the male side of the cone starts to enter the female side forcing oil out of the little holes on the male side. closer to full travel you get, the less holes for the oil to flow out. The external adjustment puts tension on a small spring that closes a blow off.

    The 650 problem is because the fork is only designed to reach a max travel of 160. If it compresses more then 160, the compression and rebound dampers would collide. If the end user was to take the shorter cones from a 170mm 26'' fork and install them on a 650b version, the travel limiting spacer could be removed and give a 170mm 650b fork. You would have to check there are no frame clearance issues at 170mm as well.

  163. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MC2 2.jpg 
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    Bottoming cone is what is attached to the both dampers in the picture. when nearing full compression, the male side of the cone starts to enter the female side forcing oil out of the little holes on the male side. closer to full travel you get, the less holes for the oil to flow out. The external adjustment puts tension on a small spring that closes a blow off.

    The 650 problem is because the fork is only designed to reach a max travel of 160. If it compresses more then 160, the compression and rebound dampers would collide. If the end user was to take the shorter cones from a 170mm 26'' fork and install them on a 650b version, the travel limiting spacer could be removed and give a 170mm 650b fork. You would have to check there are no frame clearance issues at 170mm as well.
    The 27" forks are showing as 10mm longer A-C than the 26" and have 10mm less possible travel.
    There are two normal ways to acheive that.
    1. Longer lower legs to place the axle lower.
    2. Longer rebound and compression shafts with bottom-out spacer.

    If it's the first, then the damper is the same and travel is only restricted to keep the height down and you'd normally see a top-out spacer or shorter compression rods.
    If it's the second then removing the bottom-out spacer could produce issues with crown/tyre clearance at bottomout.

    Given a 27" rim is exactly 1" bigger than a 26" rim (559mm vs 584mm) the 27" fork with the same tyre and travel will already be running ~3mm less crown/tyre clearance at full compression.

    Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  164. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The 27" forks are showing as 10mm longer A-C than the 26" and have 10mm less possible travel.
    There are two normal ways to acheive that.
    1. Longer lower legs to place the axle lower.
    2. Longer rebound and compression shafts with bottom-out spacer.

    If it's the first, then the damper is the same and travel is only restricted to keep the height down and you'd normally see a top-out spacer or shorter compression rods.
    If it's the second then removing the bottom-out spacer could produce issues with crown/tyre clearance at bottomout.

    Given a 27" rim is exactly 1" bigger than a 26" rim (559mm vs 584mm) the 27" fork with the same tyre and travel will already be running ~3mm less crown/tyre clearance at full compression.

    Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.
    The bottoming cones being different is what I read somewhere else, I was looking for where I saw it, but couldnt find it. Once some of these hit the field, Im sure we can confirm that they are different. Or if someone wants to try it, contact Manitou and ask, they are willing to give more tech info then any other manufacture I have worked with.

    [email protected] for anyone interested in this, or any other tech info.

  165. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.
    And remember that tires bulge upwards a bit during a full compression impact situation. Maybe a matter of 2-3mm max, but the possibility is still there.

    Actually, Manitou ran into some similar issue with the first Nixons. They had to put some bumpers into the lowers that would limit the travel.
    Check my Site

  166. #166
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    cool pics

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MC2 2.jpg 
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    Haven't used an hydraulic bottom out that blows off before.. or one that's in an air fork.. sounds like it could be better than having to drill out a couple holes, long as it's strong enough and rebound is not too slow.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  167. #167
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    Re: Manitou Mattoc

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Actually, Manitou ran into some similar issue with the first Nixons. They had to put some bumpers into the lowers that would limit the travel.
    I am currently riding one of those 2005 nixons and I removed the extra bumpers they put in under recall. But I am very careful with tyres I run and measuring clearance. No rub marks on the Crown yet, biggest tyre I've run is 2.35.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  168. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Running significantly more air than is recommended. ~70kg and running 65psi. I'm not saying the fork can't be set up better with the standard tune and adjustments, I'm just saying I haven't found that yet.

    Running from open HS 2clicks, LS 2 clicks, HBO 2clicks. R ~ 6 from closed.
    ...
    very strange as Im 86 kg and ended up running 52psi....
    Passion beyond reason!

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    Dropped my lowers today. They had gd amounts of oil and grease in the right places, so thumbs up to the factory. Gave them a clean, inspected the air leg internals and lubbed the seals and piston. Everything was easy enough bar getting the air leg to meet with the lowers, very carefully used some vice grips and a towel to engage the threads in the end.

    Fork feel even better now and happy with the performance. Played around with the HS to get some more mid to ealy stroke support, but cant say I found any gd results.

    I would like to reduce the volume on the air leg (like pike with tokens). Has anyone done this with dorado?

  170. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    very strange as Im 86 kg and ended up running 52psi....
    Running 67 psi and happy with the spring rate. I hope one of us does not have a vaulty fork

  171. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Running 67 psi and happy with the spring rate. I hope one of us does not have a vaulty fork
    More likely difference in shock pumps...
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Dropped my lowers today. They had gd amounts of oil and grease in the right places, so thumbs up to the factory. Gave them a clean, inspected the air leg internals and lubbed the seals and piston. Everything was easy enough bar getting the air leg to meet with the lowers, very carefully used some vice grips and a towel to engage the threads in the end.

    Fork feel even better now and happy with the performance. Played around with the HS to get some more mid to ealy stroke support, but cant say I found any gd results.

    I would like to reduce the volume on the air leg (like pike with tokens). Has anyone done this with dorado?
    So you did open the air spring? regular cassette tool or..?
    In terms of reducing the air chamber volume - I was thinking maybe add some more (than the recommended 7cc) oil on top of the air piston?

  173. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    So you did open the air spring? regular cassette tool or..?
    In terms of reducing the air chamber volume - I was thinking maybe add some more (than the recommended 7cc) oil on top of the air piston?
    I used one from the workshop in my work, I believe it is just normal park tools cassette tool. It has a good sized hole in the middle. all you need to do is remove the spacer from the air piston and it will fit over the assembly.

    Yip, sure you could use some more oil or some grease. Spacers would be ideal.

  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    More likely difference in shock pumps...
    most likely indeed.

  175. #175
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    Anybody ever buy anything from these guys:

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Forks 2014

    They say they have the Mattoc in stock for $450. It can't be real, right?
    Last edited by Vespasianus; 04-30-2014 at 04:37 AM.
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  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Anybody every buy anything from these guys:

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Forks 2014

    They say they have the Mattoc in stock for $450. It can't be real, right?
    Well you cant pick what wheel size or color you are getting, so that alone makes me think its too good to be true.....

  177. #177
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    And they are based in Indonesia, which as I recall is quite the hotbed for dodgy non-existent online bike stores. Also, google maps shows what looks like a bus station at the address supplied on their website....
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

  178. #178
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    @all the Mattoc owners:
    In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter? I'm leaning towards improper setup from the german guys though.
    Of course the ultimate comparison would be with the Pike, since this is the flagship trail/AM/E-word fork on the market.

  179. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @all the Mattoc owners:
    In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter?
    That's what I'm understanding too, but looks like they're comparing the Mattoc with the Marzocchi 55 coil, so i'm not that surprised.
    I never rode the Mattoc, just reading around because I'm interested too.

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by savo View Post
    That's what I'm understanding too, but looks like they're comparing the Mattoc with the Marzocchi 55 coil, so i'm not that surprised.
    I never rode the Mattoc, just reading around because I'm interested too.
    Oh, I missed the coil part, thought the 55 had air spring...

  181. #181
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    Well, I may have said before but, I have ridden a 55ti RC3 V2 160 and a Pike and obviously a Mattoc.

    The 55ti dampens out chatter, small bump significantly more than the air forks. Being open bath and coil this wont come as a surprise. The Mattoc does a better job than the Pike especially when riding dh rather than sat down pedelling on flat or up hill.

  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @all the Mattoc owners:
    In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter? I'm leaning towards improper setup from the german guys though.
    Of course the ultimate comparison would be with the Pike, since this is the flagship trail/AM/E-word fork on the market.
    The mattoc is a light, long travel trail fork, not a open bath 3 year service free coil shock
    The only thing that compares to the 55 rc3 ti is the deville, but it`s still not a coil fork...

    After 6 weeks on my mattoc here are my thoughts:

    -It takes at least 6000vertical meters of descent to properly break in the fork. (3-4 rides a week for 3 weeks) After this you need to change spring and compression settings.

    -Performance is on par with Lyrik DH-damper and fox 36 rc2 damper at a lower weight, but lacks in the small bump compliance section compared to the 55 rc3 ti, which is expected, as it is not a coil fork. You simply get more tired going fast downhill than on the latter fork.

    -There is a bit too little stock oil in the lowers, after 6 weeks there was a stanchion scratch from a stuck stone in the right seal. When opened only a few drops of water fell out of the lowers. When I opened the air side (with my proprietary grinded down 8mm socket) 5ml of muddy oil poured out. Either there is too little stock oil, or the seals are poor, time will show. Put 15ml of sticky synthetic gear box oil in both outer legs.

    It is a very good light weight long travel fork, but it is not open bath and coil.

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    I can add to Ynotgorilla's above comment.

    Found the same with the bed in time and the need to up damping.

    Now settled on 4hs, 3ls and 1 hbo from full open on all. Dropped to 55psi.

    Fork feels great. I do have a slight weeping one of my oil seals.

  184. #184
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    Manitou Mattoc

    Any word on US release?

  185. #185
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    Anyone experienced oli leaking from or from around Air valve on the bottom of the leg?
    Passion beyond reason!

  186. #186
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    The first actual (non consumer) review:

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Fork – Reviews, Comparisons, Specs – Mountain Bike Forks - Vital MTB


    Very positive. Sounds like what everyone else is saying here. Great fork. Just need to have it fork sale in the USA!!!!!!!!

    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  187. #187
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    They need to offer it in 1-1/8 steerer too. For people who want to run angled headsets and people with older frames. This forced tapered ******** sucks.

  188. #188
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    It's not much of a review....


    As far leaking is concerned, I tend to think it's just a bit od oil comming out of the valve when you add air without turning the bike upside down...
    Passion beyond reason!

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/BC View Post
    They need to offer it in 1-1/8 steerer too. For people who want to run angled headsets and people with older frames. This forced tapered ******** sucks.

    Not much you can do if you want to run an angled headset, but most older frames have 44m head tubes, allowing you to run an external bottom cup to switch to a tapered steerer.

    Cane Creek 40 External Cup Lower 44 & 49mm | Cane Creek | Brand | www.PricePoint.com

  190. #190
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    Second that on too little oil in the lowers, same in mine.

    How does Mattoc performs better in DH than pike?
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  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Not much you can do if you want to run an angled headset, but most older frames have 44m head tubes, allowing you to run an external bottom cup to switch to a tapered steerer.

    Cane Creek 40 External Cup Lower 44 & 49mm | Cane Creek | Brand | www.PricePoint.com
    Depends what you mean by older. My trail bike was made in 2001. It was only brands which went to internal headsets that were convertable and none of them fitted my needs.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    It's not much of a review....


    As far leaking is concerned, I tend to think it's just a bit od oil comming out of the valve when you add air without turning the bike upside down...
    Yes, as reviews go, it is poor. They talk about the reverse arch as something Manitou just started using.
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  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Yes, as reviews go, it is poor. They talk about the reverse arch as something Manitou just started using.
    Which somehow reduced A-C length over prior years. I'm also struggling with the suspension setup description.

    Overall I thought it was positive but pointless.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Depends what you mean by older. My trail bike was made in 2001. It was only brands which went to internal headsets that were convertable and none of them fitted my needs.
    Any headset with a 44mm ID should be able to be converted. We have done it at the shop I worked at many times, never with an issue. It does add 6mm to the front end height though which could be a deal breaker for some people.

  195. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Any headset with a 44mm ID should be able to be converted. We have done it at the shop I worked at many times, never with an issue. It does add 6mm to the front end height though which could be a deal breaker for some people.
    Standard 1 1/8" headtubes are 34mm ID. It's only some older internals or newer bikes that run 44mm.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Standard 1 1/8" headtubes are 34mm ID. It's only some older internals or newer bikes that run 44mm.
    Since my first post stated 44mm, this is all a moot point. Discussing how long 44mm head tubes have been around is it irrelevant, though most frames made in the last 6-8 years uses 44mm.

  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Since my first post stated 44mm, this is all a moot point. Discussing how long 44mm head tubes have been around is it irrelevant, though most frames made in the last 6-8 years uses 44mm.
    Most, no. The 44mm headtube hasn't even been around for 6-8 years. This shedfire article dates it well: » Ragley 2011 : 44mm headtubes Shed Fire : Designing for On-One, Titus and Planet X from Calderdale.

    Most brands jumped from straight 34mm head-tubes and external headsets to internal tapered around that time (2011).
    A few big players like Giant were using internal headsets which just happened to be ~44mm. But they were were not the intentional 44mm that Turner and the like now use.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Most, no. The 44mm headtube hasn't even been around for 6-8 years. This shedfire article dates it well: » Ragley 2011 : 44mm headtubes Shed Fire : Designing for On-One, Titus and Planet X from Calderdale.

    Most brands jumped from straight 34mm head-tubes and external headsets to internal tapered around that time (2011).
    A few big players like Giant were using internal headsets which just happened to be ~44mm. But they were were not the intentional 44mm that Turner and the like now use.
    Every bike I have owned since 2008 used a 44mm head tube, including my current jamis XAM and wifes Jamis Parker. Both are from 2009 with rhe same frame design as the 2008 version. A friend of mine has a 2008 mongoose teocali with a 44mm as well because he converted to taper with the link from above. You are claiming 2011, most bikes by 2011 were switching to tapered head tubes with 49mm bottom cups.

    Here is an article from 2010 talking about a converter head set for 44mm head tubes, and them using it on a bike from 2007. The 2010 article also states in the first line "this should help breathe new life into countless older frames out there and allow their owners to take advantage of the latest technology without having to upgrade their entire setup." I would think "older frames" from a 2010 article would be 3-5 years old. Its 2014, to that would be 7-9 years of 44mm head tubes.
    New headset allows use of tapered steerers in some 1-1/8in head tubes - BikeRadar

    I'm not going to argue with you any more about when 44mm head tubes came out, it really doesn't matter. This is a thread about the Mattoc. If people have straight steerer 1 1/8" steerer bikes with 44mm head tubes, you can convert to a tapered steerer fork. That's the only point of this conversation that is relevant to the thread. If you want to argue more, take it to pm so the Mattoc thread doesn't get ruined any more then it has been by off topic posts.

  199. #199
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    Well, it looks like the Mattoc is starting to hit the US (via ebay):

    Mattoc Expert Tapered 15 D 26" 150mm Black | eBay
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  200. #200
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    Manitou Mattoc

    Price point has them in stock

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