Manitou Mattoc

Printable View

  • 02-17-2014
    bigcrs
    Manitou Mattoc
    Who's gett'n one, got one and who's ridden one? Whats your thoughts?
  • 02-18-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Want one, but I don't think you'll find anybody whose ridden one yet, as it will be the end of this month (at least) before they are available. The only review/preview I've seen so far is from a German MTB site.
    Looks like a really good fork and some of the guys here who absolutely love their Manitou forks have basically convinced me to give them a go.
    The biggest issue was with Manitou revealing it so long ago and then.... nothing for at least 4 months. Kind of a weird way to do business, given the fact that the opposition (RS with the Pike, X-Fusion etc) have been going great guns in the intervening period.
  • 02-18-2014
    reformed roadie
    Do you have any idea how long it took the X-fusion Sweep to actually become available?
    I am curious toothe Mattoc and Sweep both look nice. Pike prices aren't dropping any time soon.
  • 02-18-2014
    Kiwiplague
    That's the other thing that is very tempting about the Mattoc, even the top Pro model is priced very competitively to the Pike. The only issue I think we'll have in NZ though is that I got my LBS to ring the local distributors of Manitou to see exactly how much they would cost, only to be told "we are going out of Manitou". Means I will have to likely go through CRC to get one.
  • 02-18-2014
    bigcrs
    I figured it was a little early for any type of feedback, it'll come soon enough.

    I run Avalanche products both ends and can't see any reason to move anywhere else, except in the Manitou direction. The only thing that might hold me back is the fact of Avy's mid valve. That type of setup is amazing for preventing brake dive. I've had a crack at riding a 29er setup with a current Pike and a Wilson setup with last years 888. Now taking into consideration that I think both forks could have been better tuned and the lack of time I had on both bikes, I still felt uncomfortable when time came to drop the anchor's. Especially on the 29er, I felt like I was going to endo that thing. It felt like the brake dive was using up half of the available travel. I just shook my head.

    Which begs the question, which part of TPC+ four dimensional damper would help with brake dive? I think it either boils down to the pressure or velocity dependent circuits. I'd love to learn more.

    I see on Manitou's site they now are calling for a spring time release. I thought their time frame from when they released to their original December goal seemed pretty normal. And even late March seems okay.
  • 02-18-2014
    Hangtime
    Manitou Mattoc
    The Mattoc has been available at Pricepoint for a while now. I really thought about it but ended up with a Sweep. I'm still interested in a review when they start appearing

    http://www.pricepoint.com/Brand/Mani...-Fork-2014.axd
  • 02-18-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hangtime View Post
    The Mattoc has been available at Pricepoint for a while now. I really thought about it but ended up with a Sweep. I'm still interested in a review when they start appearing

    Manitou Mattoc Pro 160mm Tapered QR15 27.5 Fork 2014 | Manitou | Brand | www.PricePoint.com

    No it's not. If you go to the checkout it says "backordered". Same with every other online retailer. It is not available yet.
  • 02-18-2014
    IntenseMack10
    Sigh.....

    Ive been extremely happy with my Dorado on my DH bike the last couple years, and unhappy with a Fox 36 and Lyrik RC2DH on my AM bike.

    So, Dorado tech in a 160 AM fork is exactly what the Dr ordered for me, but......just how long will it be?!
  • 02-18-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Even if it is another couple of months, I'm still willing to wait.
  • 02-19-2014
    92SE-R
    got a link to that german review?
  • 02-19-2014
    Kiwiplague
  • 02-19-2014
    bigcrs
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IntenseMack10 View Post
    Sigh.....

    Ive been extremely happy with my Dorado on my DH bike the last couple years, and unhappy with a Fox 36 and Lyrik RC2DH on my AM bike.

    So, Dorado tech in a 160 AM fork is exactly what the Dr ordered for me, but......just how long will it be?!

    I mind cant let go of time the Dorardo, Revox and I had together. Happy day's which had never been quite the same..
  • 02-25-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Looks like we might be close to actually seeing the Mattoc - Dig In ? Production Versions of the Manitou Mattoc Trail Suspension Forks are Here

    It's looking good, that's for sure. Main change from the pre-production models looks to be the design of the knob/dials. The axle system looks kind of neat too.

    Now just hope it lives up to it's hype.
  • 02-25-2014
    bansaiman
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)
  • 02-25-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Looks like we might be close to actually seeing the Mattoc - Dig In ? Production Versions of the Manitou Mattoc Trail Suspension Forks are Here

    It's looking good, that's for sure. Main change from the pre-production models looks to be the design of the knob/dials. The axle system looks kind of neat too.

    Now just hope it lives up to it's hype.

    Looking good! I can't wait to hear the ride reports. I love my Nixon but would love to switch to a Mattoc!
  • 02-26-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)

    You're making me jealous! Can't wait for your review.

    Biggest issue I'm going to have is that the NZ distributor of Manitou is no longer going to be getting Manitou forks, so my options are to wait until someone else picks them up (which could be months, if at all) or get a pair from CRC for about NZ$1000, but I'll end up having to pay about $200 import duty :( I'm hoping that they will be worth it.
  • 02-26-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)


    Yes! Pics, pics and more pics!
  • 02-26-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Yes! Pics, pics and more pics!

    Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine :thumbsup:

    Der erste Eindruck zhlt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de
  • 02-26-2014
    Flip D
    1 Attachment(s)
    Do you think you can add a third spacer and shim it down to 130mm?

    From the above link.
    Attachment 872661
  • 02-26-2014
    bigcrs
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flip D View Post
    Do you think you can add a third spacer and shim it down to 130mm?

    From the above link.
    Attachment 872661

    Regarding the 27.5 fork I assume? That sound like a question for the guys at Mantiou, drop em a line. In my experience they'll get back to you pretty damn quick.

    Is that some of the instructions and info that you got with the fork? Looks well detailed. What other info came with the package?
  • 02-26-2014
    bigcrs
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine :thumbsup:

    Der erste Eindruck zhlt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de

    It looks a lot more stout in that pic than the advertisement pic's I've seen. I'm looking forward to your thought's and pic's as well. The pressure's on mate!
  • 02-26-2014
    Flip D
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Regarding the 27.5 fork I assume? That sound like a question for the guys at Mantiou, drop em a line. In my experience they'll get back to you pretty damn quick.

    Is that some of the instructions and info that you got with the fork? Looks well detailed. What other info came with the package?

    Yeah, they're really good but they'll give me the book answer. I was hoping someone a lot smarter than me can look at it and say Yes. I had a bunch of questions about shim stacks on my tower pro and I ended up having an email exchange with one of their engineers who sorted me out. I thought that was pretty nice.

    It's going on a Bantam and only want 130mm in the front. At 220 pounds, not interested in 32mm forks anymore.
  • 02-26-2014
    bigcrs
    I wonder if we can get hold of more detailed drawing's... It would probably answer some questions if we could get some accurate measurements on both 26er and 27.5er spring assemblies.

    Mullen if your lurk'n around, chime in mate.... ;)
  • 02-26-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    You're making me jealous! Can't wait for your review.

    Biggest issue I'm going to have is that the NZ distributor of Manitou is no longer going to be getting Manitou forks, so my options are to wait until someone else picks them up (which could be months, if at all) or get a pair from CRC for about NZ$1000, but I'll end up having to pay about $200 import duty :( I'm hoping that they will be worth it.

    I'd be interested in trying a mattoc as well[ sick of the pike hype] but in my experience manitou support in Nz is non existant. If CRC don't stock it your stuffed,In my case a simple item like a mars spring. Very little online support anywhere else.

    I don't want to ambush another thread but if you want a affordable over achiever for your MV then i highly recommend
    Bicycle - 2014 Marzocchi 55 CR

    The distributors were very prompt in returning emails and had a rebound knob in stock[ plastic rubbish unfortunately] As you can expect better service than Fox, But i never ever recieved a response back from rock shox so that kind of sets the stage in NZ.

    I'm using one on my WR 26" set at 150mm even though it will take 650B. Huge improvement over a Rlti rev. It's 1/2 the price of my 2013 F160 and only marginally down in performance. Very very good fork. Bit hefty though if your running it as a 150mm fork.
  • 02-27-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Wow, didn't realise Bicycle had them so cheap. I'd looked at Marz before, but the costs were all well over $1300, even for the 55CR. Could be worth considering if the Mattoc isn't going to have any support, as like you say, if something breaks, I could have a very expensive (although very pretty) paperweight.
  • 02-27-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Look at this and the following pages! On the last one is mine :thumbsup:

    Der erste Eindruck zhlt: Manitou Mattoc 160 mm Federgabel [Kurzfahrbericht] | Seite 14 | MTB-News.de

    Thanks! I love translating tools: I keep seeing things like this:

    "Horny she reflected. Got in 27.5 yesterday 2 Mattocs"

    What word in german gets converted to horny!
  • 02-27-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Thanks! I love translating tools: I keep seeing things like this:

    "Horny she reflected. Got in 27.5 yesterday 2 Mattocs"

    What word in german gets converted to horny!

    Geil= Horny: in a sexually sense and if you just find something very good alternatively to "cool" the mattoc works hammer, fantastic or geil ;-) or has geile Leistung= good performance
  • 02-27-2014
    flml99
    I know that according to the manufacturer, this option does not exist but would it be possible to configurate the 27.5" model with 170 mm of travel?
  • 02-27-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    I have one since yesterday :-)
    well made.removing the axle takes 4 sec.everything about the fork's performance will be revealed the next weekend.tomorrow I'll change the travel to 170mm make pictures of the internals and load them up on the above mentioned thread.really cannot wait to mount it! :-)


    Pro or Expert? I so excited for this fork, and so bummed it doesnt have a 20mm axle option though (I dont want to take the time to switch my wheel). I picked up a Revelation to get me through this summer since I didnt think the Mattoc would be released even close to this early in the year. Looking forward to the ride report. If it works even close to as good as it sounds, It will be the best 160mm fork on the market.
  • 02-28-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    Excited about this fork so much I pre-ordered with a shop.
  • 03-03-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Pro or Expert? I so excited for this fork, and so bummed it doesnt have a 20mm axle option though (I dont want to take the time to switch my wheel). I picked up a Revelation to get me through this summer since I didnt think the Mattoc would be released even close to this early in the year. Looking forward to the ride report. If it works even close to as good as it sounds, It will be the best 160mm fork on the market.


    Here is the Link to the German Test of mine and other users. I tried to keep the German simple so that google translator hopefully will not make such a great mess out of it in eglish.
    The first 3 messages from me respresent the complete general data and my report that I have at hands in the moment ;-)
    To keep it simple: Please only ask questions in german or english. Not everybody speeks spanish, russian, chinese or something else ;-)

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de
  • 03-03-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    Here is the Link to the German Test of mine and other users. I tried to keep the German simple so that google translator hopefully will not make such a great mess out of it in eglish.
    The first 3 messages from me respresent the complete general data and my report that I have at hands in the moment ;-)
    To keep it simple: Please only ask questions in german or english. Not everybody speeks spanish, russian, chinese or something else ;-)

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Fahrberichte und Erfahrungen | MTB-News.de

    Thanks. I don't read german but appreciate your trying to help the rest of us out! From the site, it looks like this fork is a winner!
  • 03-04-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Thanks. I don't read german but appreciate your trying to help the rest of us out! From the site, it looks like this fork is a winner!


    use the google translator.I tried to keep the german simple, so that it will hopefully be translated into something that can be understood ;-)
  • 03-04-2014
    gvs_nz
    Thanks for the review. Looks like a real player. Along with Marz new offerings, plenty of choice besides Fox or RS for 2014.
  • 03-06-2014
    greenblur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I'd be interested in trying a mattoc as well[ sick of the pike hype] but in my experience manitou support in Nz is non existant. If CRC don't stock it your stuffed,In my case a simple item like a mars spring. Very little online support anywhere else.

    I don't want to ambush another thread but if you want a affordable over achiever for your MV then i highly recommend
    Bicycle - 2014 Marzocchi 55 CR

    The distributors were very prompt in returning emails and had a rebound knob in stock[ plastic rubbish unfortunately] As you can expect better service than Fox, But i never ever recieved a response back from rock shox so that kind of sets the stage in NZ.

    I'm using one on my WR 26" set at 150mm even though it will take 650B. Huge improvement over a Rlti rev. It's 1/2 the price of my 2013 F160 and only marginally down in performance. Very very good fork. Bit hefty though if your running it as a 150mm fork.

    I REALLY wanted a Mattoc but couldn't wait and wasn't crazy about dropping $850. Ended up getting a 2013 Marzocchi CR on closeout. What a beastly fork. Fairly simple compared to others but well executed. And Marz will take your calls and answer all your dumb questions.
  • 03-06-2014
    92SE-R
    Translator sucked. Care to give us a cliffs notes on the fork in english?
  • 03-07-2014
    Vespasianus
    Its horny don't you know!

    Actually, I used the google translator and it worked OK. Seems like the fork is stiff as a Magura, which is a good thing. It also seems that the fork is plush with a soft feel to it. Horny good!
  • 03-08-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 92SE-R View Post
    Translator sucked. Care to give us a cliffs notes on the fork in english?

    You can summ it up, that it works like a mini Dh Fork. Really eats up large obstacles with good control. Better than the LYrik DH of one of the other users. He says in rock gardens the mattoc is much superior to the Mico DH. I was reminded of my 2012 DEville, which works like a mini DH Fork. The mattoc only needs a break-in time, to become more sensitive. BUt although it has a good management of its travel and uses it when needed, it wont bottom out. The HBO really works great and the supportive feel the fork gives you is really good, when moving on the front wheel or coming over a large rock and flying directly into the next, what could throw you off with another fork which tends to dive. In this respect I like it even more than the Deville, because with my weight of 92 Kilos even with almost closed HSC I was regularly able to bottom the french girl out.
    Every knob really actually brings a noticeable change in contrast to fox or rs. Not as much as my vengeance HLR (which is the Double barrel under the forks refferrign to the range), but you can feel it and it is that much you can sufficiently tune the fork to your riding style and track.
    It brings really good traction on the small chatter but still you can use jumps properly. The fork wont swallow every small jump, so that you still can play with the terrain.
    The weight is claimed to be around 1877 GRams. We had 3 specimen with weights of 1868, 1906 and 1908 grams. So real world weight is only varying about 30 grams to the claimed one; sometimes even a few grams lighter. Id say, this is good.
    The Mattoc is only at 55% of the DEvilles price (1139 Deville 170mm vs 616 for the mAttoc Pro-> best price which I could find at german inet shops), is lighter, stiffer (stiff as Pike what I was told from a Enduro Racer who prefers the Mattoc on his race bike), the axle is great (can remove or put it in in <4 sec), you can change travel, you can convert between 26-27.5, service everything and tune on your own, parts are available and Manitou offers reliable communication for questions and warranty issues. If you were looking for a new fork I would definetly recommend this one. I havent ridden a Pike and cant compare it. But even if was "only" the same level as the Pike, Id take the Mattoc because of all the options. And as I was not let done by the great Manitou when compared to BOS and the Vengeance HLR Id say the Mattoc passes the test.
    Love it..... its geil-> horny :p ...ergggh awesome!
  • 03-08-2014
    92SE-R
    Thanks! Man cant wait. My distributors dont have them in stock yet.
  • 03-08-2014
    bigcrs
    Thanks mate! +1 rep coming at ya.

    Some good comparisons there, I like the fact that a 92kg rider considers it a stiff fork!
  • 03-09-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Thanks mate! +1 rep coming at ya.

    Some good comparisons there, I like the fact that a 92kg rider considers it a stiff fork!


    let s put it this way. I suppose it won't be as stiff as my 36 stanchioned vengeance with 20mm axle.but during testing there was no moment where I felt it wasn't precise enough to go where I wanted to.and the racer which I talked of said there was no difference to the 35mm pike ;-)
  • 03-09-2014
    bigcrs
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    let s put it this way. I suppose it won't be as stiff as my 36 stanchioned vengeance with 20mm axle.but during testing there was no moment where I felt it wasn't precise enough to go where I wanted to.and the racer which I talked of said there was no difference to the 35mm pike ;-)

    Ahh, after re-reading the review I now realize my comment is a little out of context.

    FWIW, I think a fork (not referring to the Mattoc) with a little say "deflection" is not a bad thing as long as the damper is quality enough to compensate and keep the bike/rider heading in the right direction. For example, I run a Lyrik with an Avalanche cartridge, before the modification was made I felt there was a little deflection while pushing it. Once the mod was made I now feel now that the fork can be pushed harder but more importantly hold a line with without a problem.

    Another question, what shock was used during the test?
  • 03-09-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Ahh, after re-reading the review I now realize my comment is a little out of context.

    FWIW, I think a fork (not referring to the Mattoc) with a little say "deflection" is not a bad thing as long as the damper is quality enough to compensate and keep the bike/rider heading in the right direction. For example, I run a Lyrik with an Avalanche cartridge, before the modification was made I felt there was a little deflection while pushing it. Once the mod was made I now feel now that the fork can be pushed harder but more importantly hold a line with without a problem.

    Another question, what shock was used during the test?

    a Evolver ISX 6 tuned for my bike.actually there is a vector Air waiting to be tested,but I still miss the rest of the hardware to fit it :-/
  • 03-11-2014
    aerius
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Even if it is another couple of months, I'm still willing to wait.

    CRC has the Mattoc Pro in stock now. Get'em before they're gone!
  • 03-11-2014
    D_K
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    CRC has the Mattoc Pro in stock now. Get'em before they're gone!

    So why is the 160mm version the only one available right now? Granted you can take it apart and adjust it but if I'm spending that kind of money I really don't want to have to take the thing apart the minute I get it. If I wanted to do that I would buy Fox.
  • 03-12-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    I believe that's how they come.
  • 03-20-2014
    D_K
    1 Attachment(s)
    For the record, the Mattoc is finally available, is only available aftermarket in the 160mm version (at least for 27.5), does come with a set of travel spacers to take it down to 150mm, and has not exactly the best decal application in the world.

    And don't ask me for a ride report. We are at least a good month away from our trails being rideable. Stupid winter won't die. :madmax:

    Attachment 878402
  • 03-20-2014
    gvs_nz
    I think Chain Reaction have had 26" and 650B 160 in stock for a couple of weeks .
  • 03-20-2014
    mullen119
    still listed as backordered on price point though.
  • 03-20-2014
    Warp
    Anyone can walk me through the differences between the three levels? Pro, Expert, Comp?

    I honestly can't tell the difference between the Pro and Expert, other than the Expert not using a cartridge and having the damper in leg, like the normal TPC stuff.

    Other than that, they look the same, but the expert being slightly heavier. Still under 2kg.
  • 03-21-2014
    two-one
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Anyone can walk me through the differences between the three levels? Pro, Expert, Comp?

    I honestly can't tell the difference between the Pro and Expert, other than the Expert not using a cartridge and having the damper in leg, like the normal TPC stuff.

    Other than that, they look the same, but the expert being slightly heavier. Still under 2kg.

    You are right, the Expert is only a little heavier, but has the same features.

    The Comp uses the Mars Air spring (coil and air in series), a simpler ABS+ damper, fixed hydraulic bottom-out, and less machining for more weight. It is basically a longer travel stiffer Minute.
  • 03-21-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    Have any forks shown up in the states? Still look unavailable here.
  • 03-21-2014
    D_K
    Chain Reaction Cycles will ship it to the US for free. ;)
  • 03-21-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by D_K View Post
    Chain Reaction Cycles will ship it to the US for free. ;)

    I want to give my LBS a chance.
  • 03-26-2014
    GTR-33
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by flml99 View Post
    I know that according to the manufacturer, this option does not exist but would it be possible to configurate the 27.5" model with 170 mm of travel?

    Nope. Not possible.
  • 04-02-2014
    goRz
    Looks like Expert is the best choice considering the price and only weight difference :)

    I think I'll order one tomorrow as Pike is ridiculously expensive here and nothing else is available for 650b with 34-35 uppers
  • 04-02-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Looks like Expert is the best choice considering the price and only weight difference :)

    I think I'll order one tomorrow as Pike is ridiculously expensive here and nothing else is available for 650b with 34-35 uppers

    I would actually prefer the Expert over the Pro. The added oil volume from the in leg damper will do a better job staying cool compared to the cartridge version.
  • 04-02-2014
    D_K
    The Pike's can be had cheaper but you have to keep an eye out. I think once the supply chain gets filled up, the Mattoc is going to be the better bang for the buck though. I just like all of the good ol' metal parts in it (i.e. no exploding Charger Damper). But from my parking lot ride on the one I just bought, it's definitely a fork that will need a little breaking in before it shines. The adjustments all make a very definite affect on the fork's behavior though which should make dialing it in a lot easier.

    The only odd thing I have found so far is that the lowers aren't the same diameter all the way down. They have a couple of bulges in them. I wonder if that is on purpose or if I got a "special" one. :skep:
  • 04-02-2014
    goRz
    Is there service guide for mattoc? Should i put some oil in the lowers right from the start?
  • 04-03-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Is there service guide for mattoc? Should i put some oil in the lowers right from the start?

    There is not full service guide yet but there are some set-up and travel modification manuals:

    Support | Manitou

    Checking oil-bath levels are never a bad thing, as long as you know what you are doing.
  • 04-03-2014
    goRz
    Set up manual Has nothing about oil levels. Sorry. Nothing else there is useful either.
    I added oil to lowers as standard with Fox and RS cause they were bone dry... Out of factory.
    Is damping oil in the uppers separate from lubricating oil in mattoc?
  • 04-03-2014
    y0bailey
    Getting so close to ordering this fork. I just want one solid review to come out besides the one that shows up on bike-radar (4.5 out of 5). It looks solid, and I have had great experiences with Manitou customer service in the past.

    I did get info back from Manitou, and the fork is going to be convertible from the 27.5in version down to the 26in version by simply removing the lower spacers.

    I do not know if the 26in version comes with those spacers in the box, etc.

    Therefor, I am ordering the 27.5in version, de-lower spacering it, and running it on my 26in bike.


    Who in this thread ACTUALLY HAS the fork in hand, and what are you impressions?
  • 04-03-2014
    goRz
    Hopefully i will have mine tomorrow so I will be back with some impressions on Monday:)
  • 04-03-2014
    y0bailey
    Where did you order from goRz?
  • 04-03-2014
    goRz
    I'm from Poland so I think it's of no use to you, but: Mattoc EXPERT Manitou | Widelce, Cz??ci | Velo
  • 04-03-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Set up manual Has nothing about oil levels. Sorry. Nothing else there is useful either.
    I added oil to lowers as standard with Fox and RS cause they were bone dry... Out of factory.
    Is damping oil in the uppers separate from lubricating oil in mattoc?

    Did it come with a manual? I would call Manitou to get the amount needed for the bath oil. Yes, the oil used for the damper is separate.
  • 04-03-2014
    y0bailey
    Why is Chain Reaction Cycles so expensive for this part? I feel like they usually have great deals, just not today.
  • 04-03-2014
    D_K
    I have the Pro version mounted up to my Bronson. It comes with no useful documentation and 2 travel spacers to take it down to 150mm and 140mm. Check out their instructions on doing the travel adjustment for how to take the fork apart and how much oil it needs. It does require some special tools or the modification of some tools.

    I haven't been able to do much more than ride mine around around my driveway right now. We will be lucky if our trails are open by the end of this month. :(

    *EDIT* The bike radar review is crap btw. They complain about its weight when its only 16 grams heavier than the Pike. They also whine that the tuning is subtle and hard to do which is pure BS.
  • 04-03-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by D_K View Post

    *EDIT* The bike radar review is crap btw. They complain about its weight when its only 16 grams heavier than the Pike. They also whine that the tuning is subtle and hard to do which is pure BS.

    Bike Radar's "reviews" are usually next to useless the majority of the time. Minimal testing done on what's being reviewed, ratings that don't match the reviews..... so, all in all, pretty much not the most reliable site for basing your next purchase on.
  • 04-04-2014
    material guy
    If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
    Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
    26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
    Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
    (I can see into the future on this one)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    Getting so close to ordering this fork. I just want one solid review to come out besides the one that shows up on bike-radar (4.5 out of 5). It looks solid, and I have had great experiences with Manitou customer service in the past.

    I did get info back from Manitou, and the fork is going to be convertible from the 27.5in version down to the 26in version by simply removing the lower spacers.

    I do not know if the 26in version comes with those spacers in the box, etc.

    Therefor, I am ordering the 27.5in version, de-lower spacering it, and running it on my 26in bike.


    Who in this thread ACTUALLY HAS the fork in hand, and what are you impressions?

  • 04-04-2014
    aerius
    I'm convinced Bike Radar copy-pastes every single one of their Manitou "reviews". All of them say something like "with its narrow stance and sloped crown the fork is flexy and twists more than its competitors", and this is on everything from an R7 to the Mattoc. Which is complete BS. I've ridden all those forks except the Mattoc and every one of them is at least as stiff as anything else in its class.
  • 04-04-2014
    y0bailey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
    Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
    26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
    Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
    (I can see into the future on this one)


    How do you have this information? I think I can see the fine print you are reading on post #19. I did email Manitou directly, but now I need to get more information because it seems like you are correct.

    I will get back in contact with Manitou and let everyone know.
  • 04-04-2014
    y0bailey
    From Manitou support directly:

    Changing the plunger is required to change wheel sizes. The plungers come in the box (except for the early launch forks, they are available for free though by contacting us.) So if you buy a 26 fork it can be converted to 27.5 or vice versa without purchasing any extra parts. Part will eiher be in the box or you can get them from us.

    One thing you do have to remember though is 27.5 forks have a 44mm offset at the crown, 26in forks have 41mm offset. That will not change when converting obviously, more just something to be mindful of.
  • 04-04-2014
    y0bailey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    From Manitou support directly:

    Changing the plunger is required to change wheel sizes. The plungers come in the box (except for the early launch forks, they are available for free though by contacting us.) So if you buy a 26 fork it can be converted to 27.5 or vice versa without purchasing any extra parts. Part will eiher be in the box or you can get them from us.

    One thing you do have to remember though is 27.5 forks have a 44mm offset at the crown, 26in forks have 41mm offset. That will not change when converting obviously, more just something to be mindful of.

    Now, in my mind I cannot see 3mm of offset difference really mattering as far as my overall geometry goes. Anyone have any thoughts there?
  • 04-04-2014
    material guy
    I tend to do research on items that cost this much so as not to be disappointed when I plop down my hard earned money.
    I just wonder if Manitou was exactly sure on which spacer that you were meaning when you emailed them?
    I have a pro version on order with my LBS. Waiting like most or all North Americans.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    How do you have this information? I think I can see the fine print you are reading on post #19. I did email Manitou directly, but now I need to get more information because it seems like you are correct.

    I will get back in contact with Manitou and let everyone know.

  • 04-04-2014
    y0bailey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    I tend to do research on items that cost this much so as not to be disappointed when I plop down my hard earned money.
    I just wonder if Manitou was exactly sure on which spacer that you were meaning when you emailed them?
    I have a pro version on order with my LBS. Waiting like most or all North Americans.

    Based on the above response I posted from Manitou, I am highly confident this fork will convert from 26in to 27.5in, and will include all parts to do so. Read above.
  • 04-04-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I'm convinced Bike Radar copy-pastes every single one of their Manitou "reviews". All of them say something like "with its narrow stance and sloped crown the fork is flexy and twists more than its competitors", and this is on everything from an R7 to the Mattoc. Which is complete BS. I've ridden all those forks except the Mattoc and every one of them is at least as stiff as anything else in its class.

    So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
    Unfortuantely spending some time on a fork yourself[ not just a quick ride] is the only way to tell.

    I like the reverse arch concept . It works really well on my Dt Swiss forks but their arch is massive compared to the Manitou version.
  • 04-04-2014
    material guy
    In post #62 you mentioned only removing the lower spacer, not replacing the entire plunger.
    Replacing the plunger changes the entire game.

    Thanks for the update though.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by y0bailey View Post
    Based on the above response I posted from Manitou, I am highly confident this fork will convert from 26in to 27.5in, and will include all parts to do so. Read above.

  • 04-04-2014
    D_K
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????

    LOL, I swear that every fork on the market gets the same two reviews:

    Reviewer 1
    -Opinion A - The fork is a pig.
    -Opinion B - The fork is uber stiff.
    -Opinion C - The fork's settings don't do crap.
    -Opinion D - The fork's tuning is good.

    Reviewer 2
    -Opinion A - The fork is really light.
    -Opinion B - The fork is a noodle.
    -Opinion C - The fork's settings work well.
    -Opinion D - The fork's tuning sucks.

    :p
  • 04-05-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    So have I except the mattoc and they are flexy ESPECIALLY!!!!!!!!!! the R7. So are the Fox 32's and they also mention that in their reviews. As always take any review as compromised. I used to laugh when they all raved about the Rev RLTi???????
    Unfortuantely spending some time on a fork yourself[ not just a quick ride] is the only way to tell.

    I like the reverse arch concept . It works really well on my Dt Swiss forks but their arch is massive compared to the Manitou version.


    I am 200 lbs and have ridden both Manitou Black, Manitou Nixon and Fox 32mm and Fox 36mm forks. For the most part, I found the Manitou 30mm fork to be as stiff as the Fox 32 mm fork (with QR). The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.
  • 04-05-2014
    goRz
    So I've installed my Mattoc Expert and went on first ride today. Locally we have hills rather than mountains and no real rocks.
    Anyway, My current summary is: fork is stiff, doesn't dive. Ride is stable and inspires confidence. It's not super plush but I might be running too much air and I Don't mind.
    BUT the only knob that made real difference is rebound knob:)

    I also have problem with Scale in Manitou materials. E.g. According to set up guide Slow compression can be set from 0 to 4, where weirdly 0 means max compression!. However on the dial, there is normal + and - sign. Now, does + refer to amount of damping or to numbers from set up guide?? In later case +would actually mean less damping.
    I'm confused. Anybody knows how this works?
  • 04-05-2014
    aerius
    The +/- signs on the dial mean more or less damping, respectively, same as every other fork. What the tuning guide does is count clicks from the fully closed position, in other words, spin the dial to the + side as far as it goes, then back it off the number of clicks that's recommended in the guide.

    For example, to do the Flow Trail tune on your Expert, spin all dials to the + side all the way, then back off rebound by 1-3 clicks, high speed compression by 1-2 clicks, low speed compression by 0-2 clicks, and HBO gets backed out all the way and added in as needed.
  • 04-05-2014
    goRz
    Thanks, although this would do just fine;)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    The +/- signs on the dial mean more or less damping, respectively, same as every other fork.

    Anyway I assumed it's like that, so I still kinda think that compression knobs dont make much difference...
  • 04-05-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    Looks like pinkbike is going to have a review soon. Check out their Facebook page.
  • 04-06-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I am 200 lbs and have ridden both Manitou Black, Manitou Nixon and Fox 32mm and Fox 36mm forks. For the most part, I found the Manitou 30mm fork to be as stiff as the Fox 32 mm fork (with QR). The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.

    I admire your Brand loyalty.
  • 04-06-2014
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    The Nixon with a 20mm axle was similar to the Fox 36mm fork.

    Fore aft rigidity? :rolleyes:
  • 04-06-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Fore aft rigidity? :rolleyes:

    Fore/aft rigidity is mostly about the steerer and crown. Stanchion size is a small player as 2x32mm tubes are a whole lot stiffer than one 28.6mm tube.

    Unfortunately I haven't ridden a F36 on the same trail as a Nixon to compare directly.
  • 04-09-2014
    Turbocharged
    Anyone hear anything yet about an actual US release date?
  • 04-09-2014
    goRz
    I'm shocked it's available earlier in Poland than in US :)
  • 04-09-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I admire your Brand loyalty.

    What brand loyalty?
  • 04-11-2014
    Turbocharged
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    I'm shocked it's available earlier in Poland than in US :)

    Me too. I'm hoping that they are timing it with this weekends Sea Otter Classic...fingers crossed.
  • 04-11-2014
    bansaiman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    If you take the lower spacer out you just might have a pile of junk on your hands.
    Look at #19 post in this thread, see the different lengths of the HBO damper (top of the rebound assembly), removing the spacer will damage the damping on this fork by bottoming out the HBO. This is why they say in the travel adjust service manual DO NOT REMOVE this spacer for the 27.5 fork.
    26" & 27.5" forks differ in the crown offset. If you want 26" version then get the 26" version.
    Don't modify this fork, damage it, then complain that there warranty sucks.
    (I can see into the future on this one)

    this is not completely correct!
    The mattoc is made to be converted between travel and wheel sizes!But you need to change the part only the rebound assembly where the hbo is put on..
    It is a part which was to Come with every mattoc but it only will when they finally catch Up with the orders.if it was Not added to your package,write manitou tech support and you will get it as soon as available.then you can convert it to the other size ;-))
  • 04-13-2014
    Caol
    Got a Mattoc 650b 160 last week, to replace my Pike. Feel great. Steering feels touch different (offset) and I think the Pikes are marginally stiffer. Very plush off the top, grip is great and damping can be set up easily. The air leg is very smooth, almost coil like. I would be interested in some volume reducers for the air leg.
  • 04-13-2014
    goRz
    You've replaced the new Pike with it?!
  • 04-13-2014
    Caol
    Got pikes on slash, had creaking steerer and air leg troubles. Got replacement on warranty. I've had bad luck with RS for a while now. So trying something new
  • 04-13-2014
    goRz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Got pikes on slash, had creaking steerer and air leg troubles. Got replacement on warranty. I've had bad luck with RS for a while now. So trying something new

    What's your opinion on compression knobs effect?
  • 04-13-2014
    Caol
    Only had one real ride so far. LS is affective and noticable, but much more suble comparee to fox or RS. HS not sure about yet. Running 2 clicks from open. HBO has dramatic effect
  • 04-13-2014
    92SE-R
    So is it plusher than pike?
  • 04-13-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Got a Mattoc 650b 160 last week, to replace my Pike. Feel great. Steering feels touch different (offset) and I think the Pikes are marginally stiffer. Very plush off the top, grip is great and damping can be set up easily. The air leg is very smooth, almost coil like. I would be interested in some volume reducers for the air leg.

    I'm interested in your comment about volume reducers. I've spent the last week first riding an air-spring Dorado, then my re-tuned coil sprung TPC+ nixon and finally being sidelined with a broken helmet and black eye.

    But anyway. Were you wanting more progression in the spring to hold up the mid-stroke better or to be able to run softer start of stroke for the same end of stroke?
    I was wondering if it was more damper tuning that you needed rather than spring.
  • 04-13-2014
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Fore/aft rigidity is mostly about the steerer and crown. Stanchion size is a small player as 2x32mm tubes are a whole lot stiffer than one 28.6mm tube.

    No kidding, and what do 36mm stanchions require? A bigger crown.
  • 04-13-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    No kidding, and what do 36mm stanchions require? A bigger crown.

    You can hold 32mm tubes with a beefy crown and 36mm tubes with a flexy one.
    Tube size alone means very little.
  • 04-14-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm interested in your comment about volume reducers. I've spent the last week first riding an air-spring Dorado, then my re-tuned coil sprung TPC+ nixon and finally being sidelined with a broken helmet and black eye.

    But anyway. Were you wanting more progression in the spring to hold up the mid-stroke better or to be able to run softer start of stroke for the same end of stroke?
    I was wondering if it was more damper tuning that you needed rather than spring.

    I mentioned volume reducers speculatively, out of curiosity after using them with the pike. Used In the pike they provided a better dynamic ride and support but affected small bump performance. I think the Mattoc air leg provides better performance overall.

    More mid valving would be a better solution in both forks.

    I am a light rider, like to ride pretty hard and coming from a dh background I am looking for dh like performance from my forks. I understand the limitations of travel and chassis with these forks.

    With regards plushness I don't think there is much difference between the pike and mattoc.
  • 04-14-2014
    LyNx
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?
  • 04-14-2014
    GTR-33
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?

    When I was talking to one of the guys from Hayes he said they wanted to start with the "Enduro" market in Europe where they think they have the best chance at competing with the Pike. He also mentioned that a 29er version could be made but they started with the 26/650b fork as they are actually the same. 650B version has a 10mm spacer in it so the tire doesn't hit the crown.

    They know the demand is there for a 29er version, Hayes just seems to be confused at how to market it's products in a constantly changing world of suspension as they are always behind IMO.

    If Hayes made a 29er Mattoc they would want to make a 140mm-160mm fork so not to directly compete with the Minute but the demand is for something as low as 100mm and definitely a 120mm Mattoc would sell too. I would buy one.

    Performace wise, people I have talked to said it's easily as good as stiff as the Pike and has a better damper. The fork is very tunable too. I saw one with 100mm of travel on a park bike. No real modifications except 60mm of travel spacers and damper tuning for the dramatically lower travel.
  • 04-14-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?

    Isn't the only 29" anything being launched now just the stuff that was 3 years late to the party?

    I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't see 29" ever having a future in long travel bikes. It's a touring wheel size. 300 riders at the enduro race last weekend and only a handful on 29's.
  • 04-14-2014
    LyNx
    Nope, longer travel forks of suitable stanchion diameter only showed up 2.5 years ago with the F34 and then the Trace and now the PIKE. They don't offer a 140mm fork, they were 'sposed to be releasing one, but I've not seen it.

    To me 140mm is not "long travel" it's about avg for a Trail bike, for sure down here it's just about the most popular length, loads of SJ FSRs and the like. As for popular, maybe not at Enduro races, but they sure as hell are as general purpose trail bikes, I count the amount of people on 26ers down here, it's easier than counting the 29ers and when I was in CO years ago was pretty much a similar experience with regards to the people I rode with.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Isn't the only 29" anything being launched now just the stuff that was 3 years late to the party?

    I'm sure many will disagree, but I don't see 29" ever having a future in long travel bikes. It's a touring wheel size. 300 riders at the enduro race last weekend and only a handful on 29's.

  • 04-14-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Nope, longer travel forks of suitable stanchion diameter only showed up 2.5 years ago with the F34 and then the Trace and now the PIKE. They don't offer a 140mm fork, they were 'sposed to be releasing one, but I've not seen it.

    To me 140mm is not "long travel" it's about avg for a Trail bike, for sure down here it's just about the most popular length, loads of SJ FSRs and the like. As for popular, maybe not at Enduro races, but they sure as hell are as general purpose trail bikes, I count the amount of people on 26ers down here, it's easier than counting the 29ers and when I was in CO years ago was pretty much a similar experience with regards to the people I rode with.

    140mm is short for a 26" trail bike. I've was riding 145mm forks in 2000. But a 29" bike with 140mm has a head-tube height from the ground comparable to a 200mm 26" bike.

    The biggest single problem with 29" suspension is running out of room everywhere. The wheels simply take up too much space.
  • 04-15-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Tube size alone means very little.

    Just a litle disingenuous from an engineer? Point loads!!

    I remember German BIKE mag doing torsion and flex testing of forks when the 15QR debate surtfaced.
    From memory the tapered steerer did make as much difference as axle size in some cases but 36mm tubes was still streets ahead.
  • 04-15-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Just a litle disingenuous from an engineer? Point loads!!

    I remember German BIKE mag doing torsion and flex testing of forks when the 15QR debate surtfaced.
    From memory the tapered steerer did make as much difference as axle size in some cases but 36mm tubes was still streets ahead.

    Point loads? It's bending moment that's the biggest concern.

    Ze Germans weren't testing stanchion size in isolation. They were testing complete forks which happened to use different size stanchions. Lots and lots of other variables.
  • 04-15-2014
    LyNx
    Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make :???: Maybe it's something shorter riders are worried about, but @ 6'2" with long arms and legs, 29ers fit me easily and perfectly, never had to run a stem slammed onto the headset yet, not even in my "XC" days when I ran about 2-3" bar to saddle drop.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    140mm is short for a 26" trail bike. I've was riding 145mm forks in 2000. But a 29" bike with 140mm has a head-tube height from the ground comparable to a 200mm 26" bike.

    The biggest single problem with 29" suspension is running out of room everywhere. The wheels simply take up too much space.

  • 04-15-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Point loads? It's bending moment that's the biggest concern.

    .

    Exactly and the steerer is held at two points about 120mm apart as compared to staunchions held only at the crown.

    Complete fork tests tell the complete picture so QED for 36mm forks and their supposedly flexy crowns and steerers?

    There must be a break even point where 40mm staunchions and longer travel overpower the 1 1/8 single crown but it seems 36mm and 160mm travel 1 1/8 single crown is fine.
  • 04-15-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Exactly so how can you justify your intial statement when a steerer is held at two points about 120mm apart as compared to staunchions held only at the crown.The moments are not to disimilar considering the main load is at the axle. There must be a break even point where 40mm staunchions and longer travel overpower the single crown but it seems 36mm and 160mm travel single crown is fine.

    I'm not following you here.
    The only forks which support the steerer at two points are dual crown and we're not discussing those. All single crown forks place a large bending moment load at the crown.

    It is the design of this area of the fork (steerer through crown to stanchion tubes) that determines the majority of the fore/aft stifness.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Complete fork tests tell the complete picture so QED for 36mm forks and their supposedly flexy crowns and steerers?

    But they offer no insight as to which features are responsible for the result.
  • 04-15-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Not quite sure of the point you're trying to make :???: Maybe it's something shorter riders are worried about, but @ 6'2" with long arms and legs, 29ers fit me easily and perfectly, never had to run a stem slammed onto the headset yet, not even in my "XC" days when I ran about 2-3" bar to saddle drop.

    My main point is for the same total height would you take a 140mm or less 29" bike, a 200+mm 26" bike or a 180mm 27" bike?

    The number of people who'd take the 140mm 29" are a niche rather than a majority so can't expect a wide component selection.
  • 04-15-2014
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Looks like an interesting fork, could be a real player, EXCEPT, that Manitou seems with this launch to have said FVCK IT to the 29er market, if not where's the 29" version?

    Hayes have been very conservative with new models for Manitou, don't forget that too many models, too much new stuff and not enough focus on quality is what sunk Manitou eight years ago and led to Hayes picking up the pieces. I'm sure a 29er Mattoc will come.

    Regards the wider market I think in another three to four years long travel 29ers will be a big deal. Some of the bigger European brands are putting out very convincing 130mm+ 29ers right now (On One, BMC, Canyon, Rose) and the Spesh Enduro is getting mostly excellent reviews. Sooner or later the buying public will figure out that if 160mm equals smashing over rocks faster and 29er equals smashing over rocks faster, then 160mm + 29er must equal smashing over rocks even more faster. Right now it's tyres and price holding it back.
  • 04-15-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    Regards the wider market I think in another three to four years long travel 29ers will be a big deal. Some of the bigger European brands are putting out very convincing 130mm+ 29ers right now (On One, BMC, Canyon, Rose) and the Spesh Enduro is getting mostly excellent reviews. Sooner or later the buying public will figure out that if 160mm equals smashing over rocks faster and 29er equals smashing over rocks faster, then 160mm + 29er must equal smashing over rocks even more faster. Right now it's tyres and price holding it back.

    How big do you think the rock smashing 29" market is?

    Given that much travel makes for an extremely tall bike best suited to tall riders and 29" wheels are not the choice for heavy duty usage.
  • 04-15-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'm not following you here.
    It is the design of this area of the fork (steerer through crown to stanchion tubes) that determines the majority of the fore/aft stifness.
    .

    And Black is white.
    Somewhere along the way you drawing a long bow and assuming the steerer is nearly as long as the staunchions. You have contraints and that these days the steerer is only about 120 mm betwen centres and tapered . Where's your calculations to back up your theory with these constraints?
    Even common sense says that there's deflection after the crown in the steerer but the majority of the deflection is at the staunchion/ crown area.Even my seat of the pants testing between my 36 and 35mm forks and all my 32mm forks can tell that. Why not go back to 30mm staunchions with a taper steerer?
  • 04-15-2014
    Jayem
    His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.
  • 04-15-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    And Black is white.
    Somewhere along the way you drawing a long bow and assuming the steerer is nearly as long as the staunchions. You have contraints and that these days the steerer is only about 120 mm betwen centres and tapered . Where's your calculations to back up your theory with these constraints?

    I haven't made any of the assumptions you claim. Steerer length is almost irrelevant, the spacing of headset bearings only affects the load within the steerer and headset as the bending load is resolved back to point loads at the bearings, it doesn't change the bending load at the crown where the largest moment is found.
    The biggest bending load in fork loaded fore/aft (i.e. braking) is at the top of the crown where it meets the lower headset bearing support.

    Give me some specifics and I'll happily run the calcs for you.
    For specific results You'll have to define:
    The steerer ID and OD.
    The crown cross section shape and dimensions.
    The stanchion ID and OD.
    Stanchion seperation.
    The fork length (crown to ground or crown to axle and wheel OD).
    The braking load.
    Materials for all of the above so we can obtain stiffness values.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Even common sense says that there's deflection after the crown in the steerer but the majority of the deflection is at the staunchion/ crown area.Even my seat of the pants testing between my 36 and 35mm forks and all my 32mm forks can tell that. Why not go back to 30mm staunchions with a taper steerer?

    Why do you assume the majority of the deflection is where the crown meets two stanchion tubes when one steerer tube is taking the same bending load?

    Why not go back to 30mm? Simple. Marketing.
    The public believe bigger is better and that bigger stanchions make for a stiffer fork. Just read Jm (aka Jayem)'s posts for examples of how rigourously people will defend marketing claims over engineering principles.

    I have a dual crown 30mm fork here and it's stiffer than damn near everything today. But DC trail forks didn't sell well because the public think it reduces turning radius. Yet I never hit the steering stops on any trail or switchback. I only stopped riding that fork because I needed a 20mm axle, the disc brakes kept pushing the QR axle around in the dropouts.
  • 04-15-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.

    *sigh*

    Go back and read what I actually wrote. It is not what you think I wrote.
  • 04-16-2014
    y0bailey
    Take this war to the PM... because you are both crapping up this thread.
  • 04-16-2014
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    How big do you think the rock smashing 29" market is?

    Given that much travel makes for an extremely tall bike best suited to tall riders and 29" wheels are not the choice for heavy duty usage.

    Much bigger than it was three years ago (when it was Lenz, Lenz and Lenz) and steadily growing. At the Mega last year there were a whole bunch of people on 29ers. It's been the same at other mass start/Enduro races here in Europe too, the number of people on 29ers has gone from none to quite a lot in a couple of years.

    Regards bar and frame height, a 160mm Pike 29 is 571mm axle-crown, a 200mm Boxxer is 568mm, so pretty tall. But, a lot of people ride around on a bike with an inch of spacers, 20mm (1inch) rise bars and often an angled stem too. Flat bars, flat (or negative rise) stem and a 5mm spacer and you've shaved 40mm off the bar height, which isn't far off where a lot of people are right now with 160mm 26ers (but still taller).

    The bar height issue isn't that big of a deal and the average male height in Europe is something like 5ft 9, there are more than enough tall riders who do or will want this kind of bike in the near future. For short people 650b is the new big thing, but that doesn't preclude tall people from getting something else.

    Also, Fox, BOS, MRP and (rumoured) DVO are all making long travel 29er forks for the near future, they must think there's a market there too.
  • 04-16-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    You guys seriously need to stop and take it up some where else
  • 04-16-2014
    LyNx
    Why, we are discussing the MATTOC, are we not?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jdcatnau View Post
    You guys seriously need to stop and take it up some where else

  • 04-16-2014
    y0bailey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Why, we are discussing the MATTOC, are we not?

    I think things have long deviated away from "why isn't the Mattoc coming in 29" to some completely irrelevant discussion that is diluting out any good information about this fork, it's performance, etc.
  • 04-16-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    His position is not defensible. He's using a straw-man argument. Yes, he isn't posting "wrong" things, but he's ignoring the points that were made and trying to make the "not wrong" things seem like the definitive story. Go back to the post where he was defending the nixon as being "as stiff as a fox 36". It's a bit ridiculous. Yes, the steerer and crown have a lot to do with this, as do the crown and stanchions, they are all part of the system. 32mm stanchions are just not acceptable for aggressive 150 and 160mm travel forks these days, especially at the axle to crown lengths we see with 27.5 and 29ers. Fore-aft flex is a big concern with these axle-to-crown lengths. Sure, you could go back to the days of nearly-solid marzocchi 1.125 steerers and steel stanchions, but lightweight structures as found on the Pike and other forks are miles ahead, just like the 36 is miles ahead of the Nixon. Doesn't mean the nixon/marzocchi AM/fox 32 and such were all horrible forks, but time and wheel sizes have moved on.

    A 36mm Fox Float is not miles away from a Nixon. And yes, for me, a 4.8 lb 32mm Nixon with 20mm axles, feels as stiff as a 4.3 lb, 36 mm Fox Float. From a suspension point of view, one is much better than the other.

    This is the same crap you keep spilling about the dw link being miles ahead of everything else...
  • 04-16-2014
    Deerhill
    No talk of bushings yet WTF... Look at the length of the bushings inside that dual crown


    Boxxer
    Attachment 886103


    single crown Lyrik vv
    Attachment 886105
  • 04-16-2014
    gvs_nz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I haven't made any of the assumptions you claim. Steerer length is almost irrelevant, the spacing of headset bearings only affects the load within the steerer and headset as the bending load is resolved back to point loads at the bearings, it doesn't change the bending load at the crown where the largest moment is found.
    The biggest bending load in fork loaded fore/aft (i.e. braking) is at the top of the crown where it meets the lower headset bearing support.

    Give me some specifics and I'll happily run the calcs for you.
    For specific results You'll have to define:
    The steerer ID and OD.
    The crown cross section shape and dimensions.
    The stanchion ID and OD.
    Stanchion seperation.
    The fork length (crown to ground or crown to axle and wheel OD).
    The braking load.
    Materials for all of the above so we can obtain stiffness values.



    Why do you assume the majority of the deflection is where the crown meets two stanchion tubes when one steerer tube is taking the same bending load?

    Why not go back to 30mm? Simple. Marketing.
    The public believe bigger is better and that bigger stanchions make for a stiffer fork. Just read Jm (aka Jayem)'s posts for examples of how rigourously people will defend marketing claims over engineering principles.

    I have a dual crown 30mm fork here and it's stiffer than damn near everything today. But DC trail forks didn't sell well because the public think it reduces turning radius. Yet I never hit the steering stops on any trail or switchback. I only stopped riding that fork because I needed a 20mm axle, the disc brakes kept pushing the QR axle around in the dropouts.

    At this point the Manitou Design team are cringing under their desks as the Manitou fan club runs out of control.
  • 04-16-2014
    ktm520
    Sorry guys, Dougal is correct in regards to steerer/crown being the weak link in fwd/aft flex. Ht bearing spacing has nothing to do with it.

    I'd buy a 29 Mattoc over a Minute.
  • 04-17-2014
    Jayem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Sorry guys, Dougal is correct in regards to steerer/crown being the weak link in fwd/aft flex. Ht bearing spacing has nothing to do with it.

    I'd buy a 29 Mattoc over a Minute.

    Once again, yes, but that wasn't the point.
  • 04-17-2014
    gvs_nz
    Elvis is dead along with the R7.

    Time to move on. There's too many variables and no one has proved anything, Just ruined mantou's PR and chance to move on with a new significant fork range instead of recycling old technology.

    I look forward to riding one with their unecessarily large diameter fashionable staunchions

    Perhaps the Manitou fan club you could ask for a special 30mm retro edition with Mars air or even elastomers.
  • 04-17-2014
    Jayem
    25mm stanchions were the thing, RS Indy, Manitou Spyder...
  • 04-17-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    25mm stanchions were the thing, RS Indy, Manitou Spyder...

    Nope. Spyder was 28.6mm.
  • 04-18-2014
    GTR-33
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nope. Spyder was 28.6mm.

    No one cares. GTFO. You're trolling so hard.
  • 04-19-2014
    Trajan
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    No one cares. GTFO. You're trolling so hard.

    Dude, you are the one who sounds like a troll.
  • 04-19-2014
    GTR-33
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
    Dude, you are the one who sounds like a troll.

    Really? As one of the only people in the thread to post specifically about the Manitou Mattoc and having one in flesh I find that extremely hard to believe..

    Oh wait... Is this thread about the stanchion diameters of forks from a decade or more ago? Perhaps we need a another self appointed expert to opine about the fore/aft stiffness of the Mattoc. I'm an engineer; I know things.
  • 04-20-2014
    Relayden
    Soo.... back to the Mattoc... anything new to report??
  • 04-20-2014
    Dougal
    So the guy posting rubbish isn't a troll, but those who correct him are!

    Awesome.
  • 04-21-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relayden View Post
    Soo.... back to the Mattoc... anything new to report??

    Right, so back to the Mattoc...

    I've had a gd amount of time on them now.

    Things to report.

    Running significantly more air than is recommended. ~70kg and running 65psi. I'm not saying the fork can't be set up better with the standard tune and adjustments, I'm just saying I haven't found that yet.

    Running from open HS 2clicks, LS 2 clicks, HBO 2clicks. R ~ 6 from closed.

    Grip is really gd and consistant on natural, rooty, loam trails, struggling a bit with hardpack setup for grip. Could be more a tyre and casing thing tho. Chassis stiffness etc- no complaints so far. Stiction, plushness of the top is gd and active through the stroke.

    I would say the damping feels better on the mattocs than pike.

    The only characteristics I haven't been able to tune in is LS support in the corners and brake dive. This is a major factor, so hopefully I can make it work or able to get it tuned by someone in the UK.

    Adding one more click of LS makes the ride a lot harsher and does not effect more of the support I want. It does increase the platform subtly lessoning bobbing while pedalling up hill (sat down) but is lost with more weight on the front wheel.

    the axle for me works great once you figure it out. Decals are not really to my liking, so I took most off. Fork looks gd now.

    Right, off for a birthday ride. I may try less air pressure, more damping and see how that works...
  • 04-21-2014
    imbecile
    @Caol
    The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
    Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

    tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
    I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated! :)
  • 04-21-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @Caol
    The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
    Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

    tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
    I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated! :)


    Actually, the abs+ shim stack is preloaded and mc2 is not. From what I remember, the HSC is adjusted by a spring putting pressure on the stack. The adjustment controls how much pressure the spring has on it. There is no threshold, the stack will flow oil in most situations, that's why it doesn't lock out. Lastly,mid stroke support will come mostly from the spring, not the damper.
  • 04-21-2014
    imbecile
    I was purely theorizing, trying to wrap my head around the recommendation on the set-up guide. Looking at the link in your signature... can't argue with your experience :)
    Care to elaborate why Manitou recommends increasing the HSC to achieve better pedaling platform? How'd that affect the damper characteristics? Obviously I don't quite understand how the spring preload affects the stack so any insight would be helpful.
  • 04-21-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    I was purely theorizing, trying to wrap my head around the recommendation on the set-up guide. Looking at the link in your signature... can't argue with your experience :)
    Care to elaborate why Manitou recommends increasing the HSC to achieve better pedaling platform? How'd that affect the damper characteristics? Obviously I don't quite understand how the spring preload affects the stack so any insight would be helpful.

    HSC and LSC affect each other. When s shim stack is not preloaded, it will flow oil at times. (You can look at the linear abs+ shim stacks in the abs+ tuning guide to see what a non preloaded stack looks like) When the HSC gets stiffer, it forces more oil through the LSC port st low shaft speeds. This makes the LSC adjuster feel like it has a larger range, and would increase pedal efficiency.

    As for the spring, putting pressure on the stack with a spring is equivalent to adding shims to stack. The more pressure the spring puts on the stack, the more oil pressure is needed to flex the shims. Most shimmed dampers with HSC adjustments use this design to give you an adjustment range, including most rear shocks.

    Hope that helps
  • 04-21-2014
    imbecile
    Thanks, got it!
    BTW are you sure MC2 shims are not bent for stack preloading, have you got the chance to see it disassembled? The pictures available on the internet don't show much detail, but if those diagrams are accurate (despite the low res) looks like the MC2 piston has a lip like ABS+
  • 04-21-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    Thanks, got it!
    BTW are you sure MC2 shims are not bended for stack preloading, have you got the chance to see it disassembled? The pictures available on the internet don't show much detail, but if those diagrams are accurate (despite the low res) looks like the MC2 piston has a lip like ABS+

    I talked to a manitou rep and he made it sound like it was not preloaded. It may have the option for the end user or have a trail stack with slight preload though. The tech made it sound like a linear stack though.
  • 04-21-2014
    imbecile
    So pretty much first-hand info :)
    Thanks!
  • 04-21-2014
    Caol
    This is great stuff guys. Thanks. I have good working knowledge of Rock Shox and Marzocchi products but never owned any Manitou.

    Been riding today and pushing the pace somewhat. Fork is really starting to impress me. Refined my set up some what. Went to ~67psi, speed up my rebound a click and reduced the hbo one click.

    I will try bit more HS later just to experiment.

    So, to clarify what are the tuning options for the mc2 damper?
  • 04-21-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @Caol
    The new MC2 damper is pretty much the same as ABS+ but now the shim stack is preloaded, hence HSC adjustment is achieved. In theory the LSC clicker settings should be the usual orifice and tapered needle setup, so mid-stroke support should be more of a shim stack duty. One way to alter this is to open the damper and play a bit with the shims, the ABS+ tuning guide should be a good start (it can be found on the net with a bit of help from google). Speaking of this, I wonder if there'd be similar aftermarket tuning kit for the MC2 damper as well.... The other and easier way is to try and increase the HSC adjustment. This would preload the stack more and could firm the mid-stroke as well. Probably Manitou have used a more do-it-all shim stack, like the Trail setup on the ABS+ and rely on the stack preload via HSC adjuster to alter the damping range and omit the need for shim stack rearrangement.
    Actually if you take a look at Mattoc's official set-up guide it says pretty much the same - increase the HSC to achieve better "pedaling platform". Meaning it'd preload the stack and raise the blow-off threshold, i.e. increase mid-stroke support.

    tl;dr: In order to achieve better mid-stroke support (cornering,braking) try to increase the HSC adjustment.
    I'm really interested in the Mattoc and especially concerned of the mid-stroke support, so any feedback from you would be much appreciated! :)

    That's pretty much exactly how the Dorado damper works (with the additional complication of two compression pistons in TPC+). It uses a coil spring to preload the fixed compression stack for high speed adjustment. But I don't see a coil spring in the diagrams shown so far.
    Unfortunately I'll have to buy another bike with tapered head-tube to test one of these.

    I do agree on increasing the high speed compression damping to offer more midstroke support and easing up on the air pressure. The LSC can only help until the shims start to open.
  • 04-21-2014
    mullen119
    Ok, now that I am on my computer and not my phone, I can write a little more to elaborate on the my previous posts.

    When I talked to the Manitou rep, he did not tell that the shim stack is not preloaded. Instead, he insinuated it in various ways when talking about the performance of the damper. Looking at the tech drawing, (assuming it is accurate), it appears to have a speed shim installed to make the stack have a very slight preload giving it what Manitou calls a "trail tune". This would mean the end user could remove the speed shim and get a full lock out "XC" tune by fully preloading the stack, or remove all preload off the shim stack by reducing the shim diameter, giving a linear tune. Hopefully this the drawing are correct and this is true, because it offers the most tuning options for the end user.

    I never talked to the Manitou rep about the HSC adjustment, 90% of forks(and rear shocks) with a HSC shim stack and HSC adjustment use a spring to add extra pressure on the stack. I assumed Manitou would follow suite as its the standard in these situations. Looking at the tech drawings closer, no obvious signs of how the HSC adjustment works is apparent. The one document says "directly adds preload to the stack", but in all honesty, I dont see how the design would accomplish this. Hopefully as more mattocs appear, some people will pull them apart and give us better insight as to how this happens. (and what shim stack comes stock, and what the piston looks like.)

    Hopefully we get someone to take apart the damper and post some detailed pics. It now has my curiosity peaked even more then before.
  • 04-21-2014
    imbecile
    My thoughts exactly. Also on the link with the tech drawing there are a few more below of the rebound damping, which is also interesting and it is the part that makes the difference between Expert and Pro models :)
    I think only Mattoc owners with very good experience in suspension products would dare to open the damper at this time - currently no service manual is available and the oil weight/levels/important details on the servicing procedure are missing. So, basically we'd have to wait a bit more :) I guess I'll get the fork by that time nevertheless :D
  • 04-22-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Also on the link with the tech drawing there are a few more below of the rebound damping, which is also interesting and it is the part that makes the difference between Expert and Pro models :)
    I think only Mattoc owners with very good experience in suspension products would dare to open the damper at this time - currently no service manual is available and the oil weight/levels/important details on the servicing procedure are missing. So, basically we'd have to wait a bit more :) I guess I'll get the fork by that time nevertheless :D

    As a Mattoc owner I am keen to know what's going on inside and make sure at the very least things are lubed up nicely. To drop the lowers a very thin wall 8mm socket is needed (not available from M yet) for the air leg. Alternatively you can use a 4mm hex on the inside of the air valve while depressed. I'm slightly hesitant to do this as obviously its going to be hard to mate the shaft and lowers when re-assembling.
  • 04-22-2014
    imbecile
    In this german thread there's a lot of info and on one of the last pages you can see a 650b Mattoc converted to 170mm - by removing the "DO NOT REMOVE" 10mm spacer at the bottom of the air spring shaft :) Obviously certain tires provide enough clearance with the crown at bottom out.... Point is those guys have managed to disassemble and re-assemble the lowers and the air spring, so it seems feasible without Manitou's special tools. After some modification of ordinary tools probably...
    Still, that won't get you anywhere near the damper side, so that remains unaccessible, for now.
  • 04-22-2014
    Caol
    The Germans have been busy...

    The photos show marginal clearance running 650b at 170mm. It is tempting, mainly to increase my ride height on the front end, as I have a Trek Slash with the tiny head tube.

    Yes it seem people have managed to drop the lowers without trouble. I guess I'll give it a go tomorrow or Friday.
  • 04-22-2014
    savo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    The photos show marginal clearance running 650b at 170mm. It is tempting, mainly to increase my ride height on the front end, as I have a Trek Slash with the tiny head tube.

    As long as I understand it's not like running it at 170 will increase the fork height. Otherwise there should not be any clearance issue. Travel is increased at full compression, basically making it a 26" fork (with just the 650b offset).
  • 04-22-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by savo View Post
    As long as I understand it's not like running it at 170 will increase the fork height. Otherwise there should not be any clearance issue. Travel is increased at full compression, basically making it a 26" fork (with just the 650b offset).

    Ah, yes you are right. I see
  • 04-22-2014
    savo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Ah, yes you are right. I see

    I see you were comparing the mattoc to the pike... what can you say in term of chassis stiffness?
  • 04-22-2014
    mullen119
    The only problem with running a 650b at 170 is you need to use the 26'' bikes bottoming cone. since the 650b version doesnt compress as far at full travel, they made the bottoming cone 10mm longer so it still works correctly. If you try running the stock 650b version with 170mm of travel, it will damage the damper if you bottom out the fork.
  • 04-22-2014
    Deerhill
    So is the bottoming cone adjustable, anyone seen a picture of the one from the expert or pro?
  • 04-23-2014
    Caol
    Im sticking with 160mm travel on my 650b fork. Not worth the hassle/ warranty negations for me.
  • 04-23-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by savo View Post
    I see you were comparing the mattoc to the pike... what can you say in term of chassis stiffness?

    Chassis stiffness are very similar. I think the mattocs have a touch more give shall we say. I think the wider platform of the Pikes gives a stiffer feel. I am 100% happy with the chassis of the mattoc so far. I have not however, in my eyes really pushed the fork yet. But on what I have rode - man made rock garden/ walkers trails there is not much difference. I am a light guy 69kg.

    In a few weeks ill smash a lap out on the fort william world cup track before it gets all groomed for the wc and report back.
  • 04-23-2014
    savo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Chassis stiffness are very similar. I think the mattocs have a touch more give shall we say. I think the wider platform of the Pikes gives a stiffer feel. I am 100% happy with the chassis of the mattoc so far. I have not however, in my eyes really pushed the fork yet. But on what I have rode - man made rock garden/ walkers trails there is not much difference. I am a light guy 69kg.

    In a few weeks ill smash a lap out on the fort william world cup track before it gets all groomed for the wc and report back.

    Thanx!
  • 04-23-2014
    imbecile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Im sticking with 160mm travel on my 650b fork. Not worth the hassle/ warranty negations for me.

    For sure! Enjoy the fork and give us more feedback on the performance and how the adjustments affect the ride :thumbsup:
  • 04-23-2014
    mullen119
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    So is the bottoming cone adjustable, anyone seen a picture of the one from the expert or pro?


    So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.

    Attachment 887870

    Bottoming cone is what is attached to the both dampers in the picture. when nearing full compression, the male side of the cone starts to enter the female side forcing oil out of the little holes on the male side. closer to full travel you get, the less holes for the oil to flow out. The external adjustment puts tension on a small spring that closes a blow off.

    The 650 problem is because the fork is only designed to reach a max travel of 160. If it compresses more then 160, the compression and rebound dampers would collide. If the end user was to take the shorter cones from a 170mm 26'' fork and install them on a 650b version, the travel limiting spacer could be removed and give a 170mm 650b fork. You would have to check there are no frame clearance issues at 170mm as well.
  • 04-23-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.

    Attachment 887870

    Bottoming cone is what is attached to the both dampers in the picture. when nearing full compression, the male side of the cone starts to enter the female side forcing oil out of the little holes on the male side. closer to full travel you get, the less holes for the oil to flow out. The external adjustment puts tension on a small spring that closes a blow off.

    The 650 problem is because the fork is only designed to reach a max travel of 160. If it compresses more then 160, the compression and rebound dampers would collide. If the end user was to take the shorter cones from a 170mm 26'' fork and install them on a 650b version, the travel limiting spacer could be removed and give a 170mm 650b fork. You would have to check there are no frame clearance issues at 170mm as well.

    The 27" forks are showing as 10mm longer A-C than the 26" and have 10mm less possible travel.
    There are two normal ways to acheive that.
    1. Longer lower legs to place the axle lower.
    2. Longer rebound and compression shafts with bottom-out spacer.

    If it's the first, then the damper is the same and travel is only restricted to keep the height down and you'd normally see a top-out spacer or shorter compression rods.
    If it's the second then removing the bottom-out spacer could produce issues with crown/tyre clearance at bottomout.

    Given a 27" rim is exactly 1" bigger than a 26" rim (559mm vs 584mm) the 27" fork with the same tyre and travel will already be running ~3mm less crown/tyre clearance at full compression.

    Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.
  • 04-23-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The 27" forks are showing as 10mm longer A-C than the 26" and have 10mm less possible travel.
    There are two normal ways to acheive that.
    1. Longer lower legs to place the axle lower.
    2. Longer rebound and compression shafts with bottom-out spacer.

    If it's the first, then the damper is the same and travel is only restricted to keep the height down and you'd normally see a top-out spacer or shorter compression rods.
    If it's the second then removing the bottom-out spacer could produce issues with crown/tyre clearance at bottomout.

    Given a 27" rim is exactly 1" bigger than a 26" rim (559mm vs 584mm) the 27" fork with the same tyre and travel will already be running ~3mm less crown/tyre clearance at full compression.

    Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.

    The bottoming cones being different is what I read somewhere else, I was looking for where I saw it, but couldnt find it. Once some of these hit the field, Im sure we can confirm that they are different. Or if someone wants to try it, contact Manitou and ask, they are willing to give more tech info then any other manufacture I have worked with.

    [email protected] for anyone interested in this, or any other tech info.
  • 04-23-2014
    Warp
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Check everything very very carefully when changing bottomout stops on any fork. No-one likes being thrown over the bars.

    And remember that tires bulge upwards a bit during a full compression impact situation. Maybe a matter of 2-3mm max, but the possibility is still there.

    Actually, Manitou ran into some similar issue with the first Nixons. They had to put some bumpers into the lowers that would limit the travel.
  • 04-24-2014
    Deerhill
    cool pics
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    So this is a pic of the MC2 damper.

    Attachment 887870

    Haven't used an hydraulic bottom out that blows off before.. or one that's in an air fork.. sounds like it could be better than having to drill out a couple holes, long as it's strong enough and rebound is not too slow.
  • 04-24-2014
    Dougal
    Re: Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Actually, Manitou ran into some similar issue with the first Nixons. They had to put some bumpers into the lowers that would limit the travel.

    I am currently riding one of those 2005 nixons and I removed the extra bumpers they put in under recall. But I am very careful with tyres I run and measuring clearance. No rub marks on the Crown yet, biggest tyre I've run is 2.35.
  • 04-24-2014
    goRz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Running significantly more air than is recommended. ~70kg and running 65psi. I'm not saying the fork can't be set up better with the standard tune and adjustments, I'm just saying I haven't found that yet.

    Running from open HS 2clicks, LS 2 clicks, HBO 2clicks. R ~ 6 from closed.
    ...

    very strange as Im 86 kg and ended up running 52psi....
  • 04-25-2014
    Caol
    Dropped my lowers today. They had gd amounts of oil and grease in the right places, so thumbs up to the factory. Gave them a clean, inspected the air leg internals and lubbed the seals and piston. Everything was easy enough bar getting the air leg to meet with the lowers, very carefully used some vice grips and a towel to engage the threads in the end.

    Fork feel even better now and happy with the performance. Played around with the HS to get some more mid to ealy stroke support, but cant say I found any gd results.

    I would like to reduce the volume on the air leg (like pike with tokens). Has anyone done this with dorado?
  • 04-25-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    very strange as Im 86 kg and ended up running 52psi....

    Running 67 psi and happy with the spring rate. I hope one of us does not have a vaulty fork
  • 04-25-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Running 67 psi and happy with the spring rate. I hope one of us does not have a vaulty fork

    More likely difference in shock pumps...
  • 04-25-2014
    imbecile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Caol View Post
    Dropped my lowers today. They had gd amounts of oil and grease in the right places, so thumbs up to the factory. Gave them a clean, inspected the air leg internals and lubbed the seals and piston. Everything was easy enough bar getting the air leg to meet with the lowers, very carefully used some vice grips and a towel to engage the threads in the end.

    Fork feel even better now and happy with the performance. Played around with the HS to get some more mid to ealy stroke support, but cant say I found any gd results.

    I would like to reduce the volume on the air leg (like pike with tokens). Has anyone done this with dorado?

    So you did open the air spring? regular cassette tool or..?
    In terms of reducing the air chamber volume - I was thinking maybe add some more (than the recommended 7cc) oil on top of the air piston?
  • 04-25-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    So you did open the air spring? regular cassette tool or..?
    In terms of reducing the air chamber volume - I was thinking maybe add some more (than the recommended 7cc) oil on top of the air piston?

    I used one from the workshop in my work, I believe it is just normal park tools cassette tool. It has a good sized hole in the middle. all you need to do is remove the spacer from the air piston and it will fit over the assembly.

    Yip, sure you could use some more oil or some grease. Spacers would be ideal.
  • 04-25-2014
    Caol
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    More likely difference in shock pumps...

    most likely indeed.
  • 04-29-2014
    Vespasianus
    Anybody ever buy anything from these guys:

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Forks 2014

    They say they have the Mattoc in stock for $450. It can't be real, right?
  • 04-29-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Anybody every buy anything from these guys:

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Forks 2014

    They say they have the Mattoc in stock for $450. It can't be real, right?

    Well you cant pick what wheel size or color you are getting, so that alone makes me think its too good to be true.....
  • 04-30-2014
    Kiwiplague
    And they are based in Indonesia, which as I recall is quite the hotbed for dodgy non-existent online bike stores. Also, google maps shows what looks like a bus station at the address supplied on their website....
  • 04-30-2014
    imbecile
    @all the Mattoc owners:
    In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter? I'm leaning towards improper setup from the german guys though.
    Of course the ultimate comparison would be with the Pike, since this is the flagship trail/AM/E-word fork on the market.
  • 04-30-2014
    savo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @all the Mattoc owners:
    In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter?

    That's what I'm understanding too, but looks like they're comparing the Mattoc with the Marzocchi 55 coil, so i'm not that surprised.
    I never rode the Mattoc, just reading around because I'm interested too.
  • 04-30-2014
    imbecile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by savo View Post
    That's what I'm understanding too, but looks like they're comparing the Mattoc with the Marzocchi 55 coil, so i'm not that surprised.
    I never rode the Mattoc, just reading around because I'm interested too.

    Oh, I missed the coil part, thought the 55 had air spring... :)
  • 04-30-2014
    Caol
    Well, I may have said before but, I have ridden a 55ti RC3 V2 160 and a Pike and obviously a Mattoc.

    The 55ti dampens out chatter, small bump significantly more than the air forks. Being open bath and coil this wont come as a surprise. The Mattoc does a better job than the Pike especially when riding dh rather than sat down pedelling on flat or up hill.
  • 05-01-2014
    YnotGorilla
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imbecile View Post
    @all the Mattoc owners:
    In the german thread the latest reviews suggest the Mattoc provides "more feedback" from the terrain to the hands, especially compared to Marzocchi 55...that's what I'm getting from Google Translate, but it seems like they mean it is not as smooth and plush. Of course if that's the case it doesn't mean the fork is bad, but I was wondering if any of you can provide some feedback on that matter? I'm leaning towards improper setup from the german guys though.
    Of course the ultimate comparison would be with the Pike, since this is the flagship trail/AM/E-word fork on the market.

    The mattoc is a light, long travel trail fork, not a open bath 3 year service free coil shock ;)
    The only thing that compares to the 55 rc3 ti is the deville, but it`s still not a coil fork...

    After 6 weeks on my mattoc here are my thoughts:

    -It takes at least 6000vertical meters of descent to properly break in the fork. (3-4 rides a week for 3 weeks) After this you need to change spring and compression settings.

    -Performance is on par with Lyrik DH-damper and fox 36 rc2 damper at a lower weight, but lacks in the small bump compliance section compared to the 55 rc3 ti, which is expected, as it is not a coil fork. You simply get more tired going fast downhill than on the latter fork.

    -There is a bit too little stock oil in the lowers, after 6 weeks there was a stanchion scratch from a stuck stone in the right seal. When opened only a few drops of water fell out of the lowers. When I opened the air side (with my proprietary grinded down 8mm socket) 5ml of muddy oil poured out. Either there is too little stock oil, or the seals are poor, time will show. Put 15ml of sticky synthetic gear box oil in both outer legs.

    It is a very good light weight long travel fork, but it is not open bath and coil.
  • 05-09-2014
    Caol
    I can add to Ynotgorilla's above comment.

    Found the same with the bed in time and the need to up damping.

    Now settled on 4hs, 3ls and 1 hbo from full open on all. Dropped to 55psi.

    Fork feels great. I do have a slight weeping one of my oil seals.
  • 05-11-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    Any word on US release?
  • 05-11-2014
    goRz
    Anyone experienced oli leaking from or from around Air valve on the bottom of the leg?
  • 05-16-2014
    Vespasianus
    The first actual (non consumer) review:

    Manitou Mattoc Pro Fork – Reviews, Comparisons, Specs – Mountain Bike Forks - Vital MTB


    Very positive. Sounds like what everyone else is saying here. Great fork. Just need to have it fork sale in the USA!!!!!!!! :madman::madman::madman::madman::madmax::madmax::m admax:

    :p:eek::D:D:D:D:D:D
  • 05-16-2014
    AC/BC
    They need to offer it in 1-1/8 steerer too. For people who want to run angled headsets and people with older frames. This forced tapered ******** sucks.
  • 05-16-2014
    goRz
    It's not much of a review....


    As far leaking is concerned, I tend to think it's just a bit od oil comming out of the valve when you add air without turning the bike upside down...
  • 05-17-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AC/BC View Post
    They need to offer it in 1-1/8 steerer too. For people who want to run angled headsets and people with older frames. This forced tapered ******** sucks.


    Not much you can do if you want to run an angled headset, but most older frames have 44m head tubes, allowing you to run an external bottom cup to switch to a tapered steerer.

    Cane Creek 40 External Cup Lower 44 & 49mm | Cane Creek | Brand | www.PricePoint.com
  • 05-17-2014
    goRz
    Second that on too little oil in the lowers, same in mine.

    How does Mattoc performs better in DH than pike?
  • 05-17-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Not much you can do if you want to run an angled headset, but most older frames have 44m head tubes, allowing you to run an external bottom cup to switch to a tapered steerer.

    Cane Creek 40 External Cup Lower 44 & 49mm | Cane Creek | Brand | www.PricePoint.com

    Depends what you mean by older. My trail bike was made in 2001. It was only brands which went to internal headsets that were convertable and none of them fitted my needs.
  • 05-17-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    It's not much of a review....


    As far leaking is concerned, I tend to think it's just a bit od oil comming out of the valve when you add air without turning the bike upside down...

    Yes, as reviews go, it is poor. They talk about the reverse arch as something Manitou just started using.
  • 05-17-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Yes, as reviews go, it is poor. They talk about the reverse arch as something Manitou just started using.

    Which somehow reduced A-C length over prior years. I'm also struggling with the suspension setup description.

    Overall I thought it was positive but pointless.
  • 05-17-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Depends what you mean by older. My trail bike was made in 2001. It was only brands which went to internal headsets that were convertable and none of them fitted my needs.

    Any headset with a 44mm ID should be able to be converted. We have done it at the shop I worked at many times, never with an issue. It does add 6mm to the front end height though which could be a deal breaker for some people.
  • 05-17-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Any headset with a 44mm ID should be able to be converted. We have done it at the shop I worked at many times, never with an issue. It does add 6mm to the front end height though which could be a deal breaker for some people.

    Standard 1 1/8" headtubes are 34mm ID. It's only some older internals or newer bikes that run 44mm.
  • 05-17-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Standard 1 1/8" headtubes are 34mm ID. It's only some older internals or newer bikes that run 44mm.

    Since my first post stated 44mm, this is all a moot point. Discussing how long 44mm head tubes have been around is it irrelevant, though most frames made in the last 6-8 years uses 44mm.
  • 05-17-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Since my first post stated 44mm, this is all a moot point. Discussing how long 44mm head tubes have been around is it irrelevant, though most frames made in the last 6-8 years uses 44mm.

    Most, no. The 44mm headtube hasn't even been around for 6-8 years. This shedfire article dates it well: » Ragley 2011 : 44mm headtubes Shed Fire : Designing for On-One, Titus and Planet X from Calderdale.

    Most brands jumped from straight 34mm head-tubes and external headsets to internal tapered around that time (2011).
    A few big players like Giant were using internal headsets which just happened to be ~44mm. But they were were not the intentional 44mm that Turner and the like now use.
  • 05-18-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Most, no. The 44mm headtube hasn't even been around for 6-8 years. This shedfire article dates it well: » Ragley 2011 : 44mm headtubes Shed Fire : Designing for On-One, Titus and Planet X from Calderdale.

    Most brands jumped from straight 34mm head-tubes and external headsets to internal tapered around that time (2011).
    A few big players like Giant were using internal headsets which just happened to be ~44mm. But they were were not the intentional 44mm that Turner and the like now use.

    Every bike I have owned since 2008 used a 44mm head tube, including my current jamis XAM and wifes Jamis Parker. Both are from 2009 with rhe same frame design as the 2008 version. A friend of mine has a 2008 mongoose teocali with a 44mm as well because he converted to taper with the link from above. You are claiming 2011, most bikes by 2011 were switching to tapered head tubes with 49mm bottom cups.

    Here is an article from 2010 talking about a converter head set for 44mm head tubes, and them using it on a bike from 2007. The 2010 article also states in the first line "this should help breathe new life into countless older frames out there and allow their owners to take advantage of the latest technology without having to upgrade their entire setup." I would think "older frames" from a 2010 article would be 3-5 years old. Its 2014, to that would be 7-9 years of 44mm head tubes.
    New headset allows use of tapered steerers in some 1-1/8in head tubes - BikeRadar

    I'm not going to argue with you any more about when 44mm head tubes came out, it really doesn't matter. This is a thread about the Mattoc. If people have straight steerer 1 1/8" steerer bikes with 44mm head tubes, you can convert to a tapered steerer fork. That's the only point of this conversation that is relevant to the thread. If you want to argue more, take it to pm so the Mattoc thread doesn't get ruined any more then it has been by off topic posts.
  • 05-22-2014
    Vespasianus
    Well, it looks like the Mattoc is starting to hit the US (via ebay):

    Mattoc Expert Tapered 15 D 26" 150mm Black | eBay
  • 05-22-2014
    jdcatnau
    Manitou Mattoc
    Price point has them in stock
  • 05-22-2014
    DirtMerchantBicycles
    Dirt Merchant Bicycles has both Pro and Expert models in both wheels sizes in stock.

    I've already swapped out the Pike on my bike for one. Can't wait to break it in.
  • 05-23-2014
    FlavC
    I just finished my first ride on the Mattoc Pro. My previous fork was a Pike. My first impression is that the Mattoc is better.

    The Mattoc seems to stay more glued to the trail, giving better traction through the rough stuff. The hydraulic bottom out adjust is really cool, and allows you to adjust the feel of the big hits without sacrificing small/mid performance.

    In my parking lot test, the adjustments didn't seem to do very much, but they make a difference on the trail. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how the low and high speed compression setting interact with each other, but think I found a good starting point.

    One thing of note is that I didn't like the fork as much with my initial settings. I had to adjust the sag, high/low compression and rebound several times before I started to find the sweet spot. Once that was done, this fork was amazing.

    The only (minor) criticism I can think of so far, is that it seems to have slightly less midstroke support than the Pike, but that might could be remedied with some more HSC adjustment. And honestly, I'm not even sure if that is a bad thing, because it seems to smooth out the trail better than the Pike and I never felt off balance, or too much over the front (once I found my good base settings).

    For someone who doesn't know or care about the various suspension settings, a Pike might be easier to set up and get a good ride. But, if you're willing to spend a couple hours doing some initial tuning and experimenting, I think better performance can be had from the Mattoc!
  • 05-23-2014
    gvs_nz
    June MTBing UK mag just did a 160mm fork shoutout and the Mattoc was just edged out by the Pike and BOS.
  • 05-24-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    June MTBing UK mag just did a 160mm fork shoutout and the Mattoc was just edged out by the Pike and BOS.

    What was the reasoning they gave?
  • 05-24-2014
    gvs_nz
    Sorry, it was UK MBR mag .
    They commended it for price,deep bottomless coil like feel, HSC didn't cause it to spike. Negatives were mid pack chassis stiffness and unknoiwn reliabity. They had to use two forks during testing. First got an oil leak and the 2nd felt different to ride.Gave it a 8/10
    Pike won out due to price,weight reliability nad best overall package.gave it a 10/10.
    BOS got a 9/10 . Heavy and expensive but good handling,tuning, reliability.
    Fox 34 Adjust got a 6 or 7/10?
  • 05-24-2014
    kan3
    Obviously being overly critical but I'm not sure how they can state that price is pro on the Pike. It's around 12-15% more expensive than the Mattoc Pro and it runs within 0-5% of the fox 34.
  • 05-24-2014
    Fix the Spade
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kan3 View Post
    Obviously being overly critical but I'm not sure how they can state that price is pro on the Pike.

    Easy, the Pike was cheapest of the forks that didn't break.

    Doesn't matter how much better the price is, if it's not working it's a bad deal. Re Pike and Deville they might have over egged the weight a bit, it's 100g between them so the Deville is hardly a tank.

    I miss the old days when if MBR broke something, they would just publish a picture of the broken part and give it a 0. Oh how Cannondale loved them...
  • 05-24-2014
    Caol
    Looking at the Pike forum and personal experiences I would not say the Pike gets a clean bill of health. Usual first gen rock shox product runs...

    So far so gd for the Mattoc.

    Couple things I've noticed. Chassis is stiffer and more solid (hard to quantify, mostly a feel and confidence thihg) on the Pikes and offset seems better on the Pike, easier to load the front end.
  • 05-25-2014
    mullen119
    Not many reviews on the Mattoc yet, but the few available(from users and pro reviews) all seem similar. Great damper(what Manitou is known for) but oil leaks seem to be a common thread as well.

    At this point, with the not being available in north america yet, Im not going to get one. If anything, I will hope to find one on a new bike that I purchase next winter. Manitou states that you will see a lot of them OEM on 2015 bikes.
  • 05-25-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Not many reviews on the Mattoc yet, but the few available(from users and pro reviews) all seem similar. Great damper(what Manitou is known for) but oil leaks seem to be a common thread as well.

    At this point, with the not being available in north america yet, Im not going to get one. If anything, I will hope to find one on a new bike that I purchase next winter. Manitou states that you will see a lot of them OEM on 2015 bikes.

    But is the oil leak from the damper or the oil bath I wonder. A slight leak from the oil bath is an easy fix for the consumer. A leak on the damper, while theoretically just as easy, will be more of an issue for a consumer.
  • 05-25-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    But is the oil leak from the damper or the oil bath I wonder. A slight leak from the oil bath is an easy fix for the consumer. A leak on the damper, while theoretically just as easy, will be more of an issue for a consumer.

    It sounds like its bath oil in all the situations I have read about. I agree that is not a big deal, but when trying to put out a new product, having them leak is never a good thing. It wouldnt stop me from getting one, damper quality is my number one concern in any suspension product I own. That is why I lean towards Manitou forks when possible.
  • 05-30-2014
    Junior Varsity
    1 Attachment(s)
    I'm not sure if this has been posted or not at this point but here is a full set up guide for the Manitou Mattoc Pro and Expert.

    It does a great job of outlining all the external adjustments.

    MC2 Compression Damper: High Speed and Low Speed

    HBO: Independent Compression circuit for the final 30mm of travel.

    TPC: Rebound.

    Dorado Air Spring: Air Pressure and Sag references.

    Attachment 897293
  • 06-01-2014
    goRz
    so... apart from the leak which seems to be bath oil in the air spring leg, I had another few days in the mountains. I liked it very much, but I'm still not getting full travel out of Mattoc even though I'm running around 50 psi, while according to setup chart I should be having minimum 53...
    So I let all the air out and took the top cap off to see if this will help :) Even then, when pushing on the bars I'm getting 140 mm at best.
    Anyone had similar issue? could this be too much oil in the damper ? (I have Expert so no closed damper for me)
  • 06-01-2014
    FlavC
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    so... apart from the leak which seems to be bath oil in the air spring leg, I had another few days in the mountains. I liked it very much, but I'm still not getting full travel out of Mattoc even though I'm running around 50 psi, while according to setup chart I should be having minimum 53...
    So I let all the air out and took the top cap off to see if this will help :) Even then, when pushing on the bars I'm getting 140 mm at best.
    Anyone had similar issue? could this be too much oil in the damper ? (I have Expert so no closed damper for me)

    Is it set to 150mm travel? This seems to be common across several different Manitou models that I've tested...they all seem to get 10mm less than advertised. I can only guess that Manitou is counting the rubber bottom out bumper as part of the travel??? Though, it's probably impossible to compress it enough to get that last 10mm.

    I admit that I find it kind of annoying, but the performance still seems better than the other brands I've tried, so I just ignore it.
  • 06-01-2014
    material guy
    I have the Mattoc Pro and was having the same issue of not getting enough travel. Too much oil in the damper side was the problem.
    Took out 5-10cc of oil did the trick. BE CAREFUL when taking off the damper side top cap, the HBO adjuster has very small springs and 2mm balls for the indents, take the HSC nob off at the same time as the HBO (as one piece), you will need a box cutter to pry off the HSC adjuster form the LSC adjuster then a 13mm socket to remove the LSC and finally a BB tool to remove the damper top cap. Pull out the damper assembly and suck out a small amount of oil.
    The Pro is not a closed damper ether.
    Hope this works for you.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    so... apart from the leak which seems to be bath oil in the air spring leg, I had another few days in the mountains. I liked it very much, but I'm still not getting full travel out of Mattoc even though I'm running around 50 psi, while according to setup chart I should be having minimum 53...
    So I let all the air out and took the top cap off to see if this will help :) Even then, when pushing on the bars I'm getting 140 mm at best.
    Anyone had similar issue? could this be too much oil in the damper ? (I have Expert so no closed damper for me)

  • 06-02-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FlavC View Post
    Is it set to 150mm travel? This seems to be common across several different Manitou models that I've tested...they all seem to get 10mm less than advertised. I can only guess that Manitou is counting the rubber bottom out bumper as part of the travel??? Though, it's probably impossible to compress it enough to get that last 10mm.

    I admit that I find it kind of annoying, but the performance still seems better than the other brands I've tried, so I just ignore it.

    Yes, that last few mm is controlled by the top out bumper. In the past, I have modified the bumper to better achieve full travel. I actually have old "red" bumpers from an old M3 that I cut down and make slits in to make it easier to compress. Even with that, on my Nixon (145 with TPC+), I routinely only use 130-135 mm of travel with some mistakes giving me close to 140 -but that is it. However, the feel of the fork is great and 100X better than the Fox fork it replaced.
  • 06-02-2014
    goRz
    Thanks for confirmation and advice on adjusters removal.
    I sucked about 7cc of oil (5 in the syringe, and who nows how much that dropped from the compression damper :) )

    parking lot test seems to prove this was the problem. Finally 50 psi seems like too little air.

    can't wait to take it to the mountains again :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    I have the Mattoc Pro and was having the same issue of not getting enough travel. Too much oil in the damper side was the problem.
    Took out 5-10cc of oil did the trick. BE CAREFUL when taking off the damper side top cap, the HBO adjuster has very small springs and 2mm balls for the indents, take the HSC nob off at the same time as the HBO (as one piece), you will need a box cutter to pry off the HSC adjuster form the LSC adjuster then a 13mm socket to remove the LSC and finally a BB tool to remove the damper top cap. Pull out the damper assembly and suck out a small amount of oil.
    The Pro is not a closed damper ether.
    Hope this works for you.

  • 06-05-2014
    Dusty Lung
    Hey all, I got my Mattoc 26 last week and have only rode it around the block and already love it compared to my pike 29 the for it replaced 2013 36 float RC2. I opened up the fork to adjust the travel to 170mm and changed the oils. When I put it back together the rebound knob will not turn and when the fork is filled with air there is only like 130mm of travel and it is still way too soft.

    I'm not entirely sure the rebound knob worked to begin with and the air pressure is like at 75 psi and I weigh 190lbs. Pumping it up even higher doesn't help and the fork is just way too soft to even ride.

    Should I just call Manitou/hayes or does anyone know what's up?

    Thanks
  • 06-05-2014
    material guy
    Rebound: 1) If you tighten down the small screw that hilds down the knob with out holding it, it could tighten down and feel like it is stuck
    2) If the damper shaft is not properly set & tightened the rebound knob could be botteming out on the leg casing.

    Air/travel: It sounds like there is too much negitave air pressure, make sure that your pump is installed corectly to open both chambers. Have bike upside down with pump installed, stand on handle bars & pull up on the fork. You should then here theair pressure equalizing out if done correctly.

    Hope this helps.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dusty Lung View Post
    Hey all, I got my Mattoc 26 last week and have only rode it around the block and already love it compared to my pike 29 the for it replaced 2013 36 float RC2. I opened up the fork to adjust the travel to 170mm and changed the oils. When I put it back together the rebound knob will not turn and when the fork is filled with air there is only like 130mm of travel and it is still way too soft.

    I'm not entirely sure the rebound knob worked to begin with and the air pressure is like at 75 psi and I weigh 190lbs. Pumping it up even higher doesn't help and the fork is just way too soft to even ride.

    Should I just call Manitou/hayes or does anyone know what's up?

    Thanks

  • 06-05-2014
    Junior Varsity
    The Dorado air spring in the Mattoc (and in Dorado) uses a poppet valve to connect the positive and negative air chambers when setting up air pressure. The valve opens when the pump is attached, and closes again when the pump is removed. While the pump is attached, the connected positive and negative chambers means the spring system does not create much extension force due to the small differential area on each side of the air piston. What this means is you should give the fork a pull to ensure it is fully extended before removing the pump. This will ensure the fork is at full ride-height and has full travel available.
  • 06-08-2014
    zoro
    Hey guys anybody pull the lowers off ? I want to change the travel on mine and they mention I 'need' a thin walled long 8mm socket.

    What did you guys do? Grind a regular long 8mm? Fits flush with a regular one?

    Thanks for the help!
  • 06-08-2014
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zoro View Post
    Hey guys anybody pull the lowers off ? I want to change the travel on mine and they mention I 'need' a thin walled long 8mm socket.

    What did you guys do? Grind a regular long 8mm? Fits flush with a regular one?

    Thanks for the help!

    Yup.
  • 06-09-2014
    YnotGorilla
    GRiND
  • 06-17-2014
    Caol
    What a great fork. Loving mine alot now. And yes you have to be careful when pumping up the air leg.
  • 06-17-2014
    Caol
    Running ~10 psi more than recommended, full LS and 4 click HS from open. No HBO. 2 clicks from open on the rebound.
  • 06-17-2014
    zoro
    2 Attachment(s)
    So I've had mine for a couple of hard rides, including some long, hard sustained dh-like runs and some more bike park flow stuff with some regular trail riding mixed in.

    I'm not the best at setting up suspensions, but the setup guide comes in pretty handy to give you a good base tune. What I have found so far:
    1. I like the suppleness of the first part of the travel. It's a night and day differecne with my old RockShox (sektor/revelation hybrid).
    2. The rebound damper is really well designed and works very very well. Where my old fork would pack up and feel like a jackhammer, this fork just motos through the rough stuff. It's actually quite disconcerning I'd say!
    3. Once you get the proper tools, or grind some into submission, it's a very easy fork to work with.
    4. I can finally run 'normal' air pressure. I used to have to 'overpressurize' my forks in order to compensate for the lack of support. Makes for a much more enjoyable overall ride.
    5. Red is killer! The matte finish isn't durable.

    Attachment 901870
    Attachment 901872
  • 06-22-2014
    Dusty Lung
    Does anyone know what brake adapter you need to run an 8 inch rotor?
  • 06-22-2014
    IntenseMack10
    I used a Shimano 160-180 adaptor. Since the Shimano rotors are actually 203mm (not 200mm) I also used 2 washers that come with chain guides which are 2.5mm thick. I stacked the washers under the adaptor. Works perfect although it took a few runs for the pads to break in on the slightly repositioned swept area on the rotor.
  • 06-27-2014
    kan3
    Searched through the thread but didn't see an answer. Can the 27.5 Mattoc be lowered to 120mm without any issues?
  • 06-27-2014
    zoro
    Doubtful. I'll page somebody in the know about it I'll get back to you. It will go to 140 though.

    EDIT: I got the word from one of Manitou's tech and he said it's totally possible! You just have to slide 2 more spacer than the 2 already in place (for 140mm). You would need additionnal spacers though 'cause you need more than what is provided in the kit you get with the fork.
  • 06-27-2014
    kan3
    Sweet
    Thanks much!
  • 06-27-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kan3 View Post
    Searched through the thread but didn't see an answer. Can the 27.5 Mattoc be lowered to 120mm without any issues?

    Hopefully an owner can confirm. But with the Dorado style air spring it's set for travel height by connecting positive/negative air chambers when a pump is connected. So you may be able to compress it far enough with the pump attached, remove it and see what the new equilibrium height is.
  • 07-02-2014
    two-one
    Has anyone measured the stock compression shim stack and preload-dish yet?
  • 07-02-2014
    Kiwiplague
    Pinkbike has just a fairly comprehensive review of the Mattoc, they seem to like it - Manitou Mattoc Pro - Review - Pinkbike
  • 07-02-2014
    Autocratic
    Putting the Mattoc on my Banshee. Almost done with the build. Can't wait.
  • 07-02-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Pinkbike has just a fairly comprehensive review of the Mattoc, they seem to like it - Manitou Mattoc Pro - Review - Pinkbike

    Seems to be on par with the pike and 36, slightly ahead in damping and slight behind in chassis. Pretty much what you would expect from Manitou, great damping. 34mm chassis will never feel the same as a 35 or 36mm chassis, but it sounds like its close enough that 90% of us wouldnt be able to tell the difference.

    Im sold.
  • 07-03-2014
    GTR-33
    I posted it earlier in this thread. It's totally possible to go to 120mm. I've seen one at 100mm. I was warned though that you might need to tune the damper depending on how you ride. The 100mm one I saw was on a park bike.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Hopefully an owner can confirm.

    Why do you need an owner to confirm what Manitou has said?
  • 07-03-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    I posted it earlier in this thread. It's totally possible to go to 120mm. I've seen one at 100mm. I was warned though that you might need to tune the damper depending on how you ride. The 100mm one I saw was on a park bike.

    Why do you need an owner to confirm what Manitou has said?

    The manitou part was added after Dougal posted his comment. That is pretty cool that you can modify travel so easily. From 100-170mm (on a 26" bike) is nice.
  • 07-16-2014
    Dlongb13
    Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.

    Thanks
  • 07-16-2014
    material guy
    I do not have that issue with my fork.
    Try to contact Manitou, they are very fast with there answers.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dlongb13 View Post
    Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.

    Thanks

  • 07-17-2014
    two-one
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dlongb13 View Post
    Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.

    Thanks

    Did you thread your shock pump on the valve properly? Because it sounds like the negative chamber isn't inflated enough, and that chamber only fills if the airvalve has been opened far enough.
  • 07-17-2014
    YnotGorilla
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dlongb13 View Post
    Read through this thread and haven't heard anything about the issue I "seem" to be having. Just got the Mattoc, zero ride time on it at all, but during set up and just pushing down on it I find that I am getting a nice knock when the fork pops back out to full extension, like a top out knock. Anyone else have this? Normal? Not normal? Heading out to EWS next week and need to get this sorted ASAP if it is a problem.

    Thanks

    Go for a ride instead of tinkering on the web about potential problems. As mentioned + & - air chambers need to equalize, this happens when you use the fork. only make incremental changes to + air pressure between rides, and observe changes. This goes for all forks using self-equalizing negative springs, including deville, pike, magura +++

    Also, this fork, as most air forks, requires some serious brake in mileage. You will probably need to up pressure or LSC after a few thousand meters of descent. if I was doing the EWS next week I wouldn't put new units on my steed..
  • 07-17-2014
    Dlongb13
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by YnotGorilla View Post
    Go for a ride instead of tinkering on the web about potential problems. As mentioned + & - air chambers need to equalize, this happens when you use the fork. only make incremental changes to + air pressure between rides, and observe changes. This goes for all forks using self-equalizing negative springs, including deville, pike, magura +++

    Also, this fork, as most air forks, requires some serious brake in mileage. You will probably need to up pressure or LSC after a few thousand meters of descent. if I was doing the EWS next week I wouldn't put new units on my steed..

    Ok buddy, you don't have to be condescending here. It was something I noticed so I inquired in a thread on forum when knowledge of said product seemed to be in abundance. Sorry for wanting to get opinions of others before I went out and did damage to said fork.

    That being said, released all the air, depressed slightly, about 5 mm, and then inflated and the issue was gone. I had read that you need to make sure the fork was fully extended before inflating, I went to the extreme on that. I did call Manitou and they called me back but after I fixed the problem but they were very helpful with their explanations.

    And my last 2 pikes or my previous 34 did not require break in times at all. And judging from the one ride I did yesterday on the Mattoc, is doesn't "require" a break in either, it felt phenomenal. That being said, I know it will break in and characteristics may change requiring me to adjust my set up, but the performance of the fork new is more than adequate. Manitou confirmed this in my conversation with them about the fork yesterday.
  • 07-18-2014
    two-one
    Great you figured it out! Could help others reading this topic.
    What I deduct from the design, you could actually change the "off the top" behaviour by choosing the point in the travel at which the shock pump will be disconnected, right?

    So for a little lower/softer ride, you can inflate the spring at 1cm from topout? Who wants to try? :)
  • 07-20-2014
    Autocratic
    Has anyone mounted Marsh Guard on this fork?
  • 07-20-2014
    imbecile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Autocratic View Post
    Has anyone mounted Marsh Guard on this fork?

    Face Fender (R)
  • 07-21-2014
    zoro
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Autocratic View Post
    Has anyone mounted Marsh Guard on this fork?

    I jsut punched 'new' holes in mine. As a bonus feature it gives you front AND back coverage now!!
  • 07-23-2014
    alexey_shmat
    Hi everyone. Who has experience with maintance of Mattoc Compression Damping? How much oil volume I need for Mattoc damper?
  • 08-07-2014
    scar4me
    Mattoc air spring issues and ride report.
    FYI anyone having issues with the dorado air spring playing silly beggars need to read this!
    Manitou Mattoc Air Spring issues by scar4me - Pinkbike

    After stripping them right down a couple of times due to them not feeling right I decided to take to the Dorado service manual!

    Travel adjustment of 27.5 model to 170mm cannot be done without completely replacing the rebound assembly. (confirmed from manitou UK importer)
    The part# for the pro version are:
    Cartridge Rebound Damper Assembly
    26 - 141-30996-K003
    27.5 - 141-30996-K017
    RRP ~65

    Such a stupidly small part you have to replace the entire damper for!
    On the plus side you can convert your expert fork with the above part to a pro for only 65!

    More to the point my ride report:
    After correcting the poppet valve the forks are now extremely plush in the initial stroke, and have nice mid-stroke support.
    This means you can run the air spring at the suggested low pressures even when your fat like me! (16st)
    HBO bottom out does what it says on the tin.
    It doesn't completely cut off the oil flow, but gives enough of a change in damping that the bottom-out bumper is engaged without any harshness.
    My previous forks I've had to tune the air spring to make up for the dampers lack of mid stroke support and bottom out adjustment, when the damping setup is active for very aggressive riding. So I was happily surprised that the manitou lived up to its reputation with this.
    I am an experienced fork/shock techy, so can happily tune my own forks and shocks to get the best out of them.
    The great news about this fork, is I've had to do absolutely no fettling!
    (apart from fixing something that shouldn't have ever been broke!)
    And for me thats pretty unheard of!
    I doubt i'll even bother taking them upto 170mm even though i'm running 26in wheels, as I really don't think i'd be able to notice the difference in travel.


    Scar
    P.s. My history of forks for reference: Specialized E160TA (what I was running before the Mattoc), 06' 66 SL's, Xfusion Vengeance, 55 ATA, 08' 66 ATA RC3, RS Sektor TPC, Manitou Sherman.
  • 08-07-2014
    Samos
    Manitou Mattoc
    Just to understand and before I buy it. Where are the needed tool disponible? Or must man "create" them ourselves ?
  • 08-07-2014
    scar4me
    mattoc tools
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Samos View Post
    Just to understand and before I buy it. Where are the needed tool disponible? Or must man "create" them ourselves ?

    To adjust the travel:
    1x 4mm allen key (to undo the air shaft) **instead of thin wall 8mm socket**
    1x 2mm allen key (to remove rebound knob)
    1x 8mm Allen key (to unbolt the rebound damper)
    1x Cassette tool (to unbolt the air piston.)
    **This needs to be a cassette tool with a large center hole that fits over the end of the piston.**


    Scar
  • 08-07-2014
    Samos
    Manitou Mattoc
    The cassette tool with the large hole is the only thing I'm missing. And I'm not equipped to modify mine...
  • 08-07-2014
    goRz
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    1x 4mm allen key (to undo the air shaft) **instead of thin wall 8mm socket**

    How does that work ?
  • 08-07-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    FYI anyone having issues with the dorado air spring playing silly beggars need to read this!
    Manitou Mattoc Air Spring issues by scar4me - Pinkbike

    After stripping them right down a couple of times due to them not feeling right I decided to take to the Dorado service manual!

    Travel adjustment of 27.5 model to 170mm cannot be done without completely replacing the rebound assembly. (confirmed from manitou UK importer)
    The part# for the pro version are:
    Cartridge Rebound Damper Assembly
    26 - 141-30996-K003
    27.5 - 141-30996-K017
    RRP ~65

    Such a stupidly small part you have to replace the entire damper for!
    On the plus side you can convert your expert fork with the above part to a pro for only 65!

    More to the point my ride report:
    After correcting the poppet valve the forks are now extremely plush in the initial stroke, and have nice mid-stroke support.
    This means you can run the air spring at the suggested low pressures even when your fat like me! (16st)
    HBO bottom out does what it says on the tin.
    It doesn't completely cut off the oil flow, but gives enough of a change in damping that the bottom-out bumper is engaged without any harshness.
    My previous forks I've had to tune the air spring to make up for the dampers lack of mid stroke support and bottom out adjustment, when the damping setup is active for very aggressive riding. So I was happily surprised that the manitou lived up to its reputation with this.
    I am an experienced fork/shock techy, so can happily tune my own forks and shocks to get the best out of them.
    The great news about this fork, is I've had to do absolutely no fettling!
    (apart from fixing something that shouldn't have ever been broke!)
    And for me thats pretty unheard of!
    I doubt i'll even bother taking them upto 170mm even though i'm running 26in wheels, as I really don't think i'd be able to notice the difference in travel.


    Scar
    P.s. My history of forks for reference: Specialized E160TA (what I was running before the Mattoc), 06' 66 SL's, Xfusion Vengeance, 55 ATA, 08' 66 ATA RC3, RS Sektor TPC, Manitou Sherman.

    Good spotting with the poppet valve. But regarding the travel, you shouldn't run a 27" wheel with the 170mm travel rebound shaft.
    The difference in travel is I believe the bottom-out height. Installing the 26" 170mm rebound shaft (10mm shorter HBO height) means your fork compresses 10mm further and there is a risk of the crown grabbing the tyre on full compression.

    This does of course depend on your individual rim and tyre choice. But it's a risk that needs to be considered.
  • 08-17-2014
    Samos
    Question about the travel spacers.

    I've got a very nice option on a Mattoc, set at 170mm. Yes, it's a 26'' of course. It's not new, but was ridden only 2 times (injury during other sport,well...). But, it has no travel spacer with it. And it seems that Manitou isn't selling them separately.

    Does someby know the exact measurement of it ? And maybe if the Rock Shox or Fox travel spacer are usable ?

    Thanks.
  • 08-18-2014
    scar4me
    1 Attachment(s)
    mattoc parts
    Use the contact us page for Hayes support on the Manitou site, they can be pretty helpful.
    Advise them you've lost the travel spacers, and want to know the part number so you can order them. (They might be nice enough to sort you out, or at least be able to tell you how to get them.)

    The EU support were much more helpful than the UK importer.
    UK importer said I had to buy an entire new rebound damper, EU support said yes it was a late decision to include the HBO spares in with the 27.5 forks.
    So EU support will be sending me the HBO part out FOC once they've got them in.
    (the first batch of mattoc's didn't come with the additional HBO part in the spares bag)

    Also for anyone thinking of upgrading travel (as per Dougal's note).....
    170mm setup is for 26in wheels only!
    !!170mm with 27.5in wheels will contact the crown and cause risk of death!!

    Pic of the HBO part and Travel spacers:
    Silver = 33mm 170mm HBO part (26in wheels only!)
    Black = 43mm 160mm HBO part (26/27.5 wheels)
    Spacer = C shaped 10mm black bits
    Attachment 916552


    Scar
  • 08-18-2014
    scar4me
    Sods law.....
    just after i replied the postman turned up with my Mattoc parts kit!

    Exactly whats in the above picture.
    Manitou part# 141-30159-K010
    Kit name: "MY14 KIT.MATTOC AM SPACER KIT"
    **EDIT**(This part number and Kit name is for the Mattoc Pro damper ONLY!!)
    Mattoc Expert damper has a completely different HBO diameter and length (29mm and 39mm).
    **/EDIT**

    Any reputable shop will be able to order this part number from Hayes for you.


    Scar
  • 08-18-2014
    intensworks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    Anyone experienced oli leaking from or from around Air valve on the bottom of the leg?

    Yes..I did...Did you get support?
  • 08-18-2014
    Samos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    Sods law.....
    just after i replied the postman turned up with my Mattoc parts kit!

    Exactly whats in the above picture.
    Manitou part# 141-30159-K010
    Kit name: "MY14 KIT.MATTOC AM SPACER KIT"
    **EDIT**(This part number and Kit name is for the Mattoc Pro damper ONLY!!)
    Mattoc Expert damper has a completely different HBO diameter and length (29mm and 39mm).
    **/EDIT**

    Any reputable shop will be able to order this part number from Hayes for you.


    Scar

    May I kindly ask you to measure the outside and inside diameter of the spacer please ? Can you also post some pictures from different view angles ?

    Thanks
  • 08-18-2014
    goRz
    So my mattoc expert shortened istself after 3 days in mmountains from 160 to 130 mm... And leaked lots of Oil when letting air out...
  • 08-18-2014
    intensworks
    Fix?
    Were you able to get it fixed? If so what was the cause and replacement parts? Thanks



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    So my mattoc expert shortened istself after 3 days in mmountains from 160 to 130 mm... And leaked lots of Oil when letting air out...

  • 08-18-2014
    goRz
    Not yet. Send It to manitou. Tried pumping It once more It reached 150 mm but shortened to 140 after one ride...
  • 08-19-2014
    scar4me
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by goRz View Post
    How does that work ?

    Just push the 4mm allen key into the bottom of the air piston where the valve is, and undo it.
    It's slightly annoying having to fight with the spring of the valve, but way simpler than trying to modify a socket (or rounding the bolt with an incorrectly fitting one).

    Just make sure when putting it back together, you only get a single turn on the air piston, and then pull the lowers up completely and hold them there at full extenstion for a while before doing it up tight.
    This makes sure you don't end up with a vacuum in the lowers that will unbalance the air spring of the fork.

    This is the same procedure that you can do to fix the problem goRz mentioned.
    As mentioned earlier I'd also check your poppet valve positioning.

    The fork shouldn't leak oil from the air valve.
    If it does it means that the oil level in the air chamber is incorrect.
    The way the piston is designed gives a small recess for the oil to sit in, and directly lubricate the piston whilst the air valve sticks out above it.
    Unfortunately if you've had this, then it's likely that when pressuring the fork some of the oil has managed to transfer to the negative side of the piston.
    So send it back to Manitou to get them to fix it as your first port of call.

    IF you wanted to fix it yourself, it means basically stripping the fork as if your doing the travel adjust. Cleaning all the air piston down, and making sure when re-building you only put 7cc of oil into the top of the air piston.




    Scar
  • 08-20-2014
    zoro
    1 Attachment(s)
    So you guys using synthetic motor oil instead of the Motorex Semi-Bath stuff? It seems to be the same stuff, at least from what I've gathered reading elsewhere.

    Attachment 917004
  • 08-23-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zoro View Post
    So you guys using synthetic motor oil instead of the Motorex Semi-Bath stuff? It seems to be the same stuff, at least from what I've gathered reading elsewhere.

    Attachment 917004

    There are probably hundreds of different synthetic motor oils. Some are very good as splash bath oil, some are very bad.

    If you want to use motor oil, best to pick a proven brand and type.
  • 08-26-2014
    Samos
    Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    Use the contact us page for Hayes support on the Manitou site, they can be pretty helpful.
    Advise them you've lost the travel spacers, and want to know the part number so you can order them. (They might be nice enough to sort you out, or at least be able to tell you how to get them.)

    The EU support were much more helpful than the UK importer.
    UK importer said I had to buy an entire new rebound damper, EU support said yes it was a late decision to include the HBO spares in with the 27.5 forks.
    So EU support will be sending me the HBO part out FOC once they've got them in.
    (the first batch of mattoc's didn't come with the additional HBO part in the spares bag)

    Also for anyone thinking of upgrading travel (as per Dougal's note).....
    170mm setup is for 26in wheels only!
    !!170mm with 27.5in wheels will contact the crown and cause risk of death!!

    Pic of the HBO part and Travel spacers:
    Silver = 33mm 170mm HBO part (26in wheels only!)
    Black = 43mm 160mm HBO part (26/27.5 wheels)
    Spacer = C shaped 10mm black bits
    Attachment 916552


    Scar

    Received today from the US in Switzerland some travel spacers. Must say I'm impressed they sent it. Really happy!


    Envoy&#233; de mon iPhone &#224; l'aide de Tapatalk
  • 08-26-2014
    gvs_nz
    I see for 2015 CUBE spec the Mattoc on some of the Stereo 160. That's major OEM kudos.
  • 08-26-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    I see for 2015 CUBE spec the Mattoc , over the Pike,on some of the higher spec Stereo 160. That's major OEM kudos.

    That would be great news for Manitou.
  • 08-27-2014
    gvs_nz
    I was reading a pre-release and got it wrong. It's not a high spec Stereo SHPC carbon bike but a low speced alloy Stereo[ previously called Fritzz160] .Still it's in the OEM mix.
  • 08-29-2014
    Samos
    So if I understoof the post about the special tools, there are no special tools needed to modify the travel ? Right ? Seems to me to be a little bit tricky with the 4mm allen key in the air valve... Is it really or not ?
  • 09-01-2014
    Samos
    So can somebody give us a mid- long-term review over the Mattoc ?
  • 09-02-2014
    meSSican
    subscribing to hear some more feedback on this fork. May get the Mattoc instead of the Pike
  • 09-02-2014
    Vespasianus
    Not a ride report but there is a story on pink bike about Manitou updating the 15mm axle. This was considered one of the negatives of the fork and it looks like Manitou upgraded the system dramatically.

    Answer, Knolly, Nicolai - Eurobike 2014 - Pinkbike
  • 09-09-2014
    Terenceang
    I am really keen in getting a Mattoc Pro 27.5 lowered to 140mm for my Trance 27.5. But I have seen a few reports about losing travel.

    I understand one of the cause is air from the positive air chamber escaping into the negative air chamber and you can resolve it by just extending the fork while pumping up.
    I am not sure about the lost of travel due to oil leak.


    So how serious are the issues? Very common or only happened to a few "lucky" fellows.
  • 09-09-2014
    Autocratic
    I've had no issues with my fork. you need to set air pressure with the fork upside down. Connecting the pump opens both chambers. When you have your pressure set, pull on the lower stanchions to make sure you have full travel, then disconnect.
  • 09-12-2014
    Samos
    After a week of rides with my Mattoc I'm very impressed and happy with the performances. But today.... I remarked that my rebound setting was fully open tried to slow it a bit and.... the knob spin without any influence on the rebound speed and without any end in both directions...

    Does it already happened to anybody ? How to solve it ?
  • 09-13-2014
    Samos
    1 Attachment(s)
    Does anybody have a Mattoc service guide ? My rebound assembly disassembled itself....

    As I wrote yesterday, my rebound knob wasn't effective. It was all fast, no damping anymore. I dismounted the legs and as I wanted to touch the rebound assembly... it stayed in my hand, letting oil fall to the ground...

    Here a picture.

    Attachment 923132

    The part bottom left in the picture was in my hand.
    The part bottom right, the smallest one, was inside the part on the top.

    I tried, but couldn't reassemble the two upper parts.

    Help me please.
  • 09-21-2014
    Terenceang
    Anyone weighed their Mattoc Pro? What is the actual weight?
  • 09-22-2014
    alexey_shmat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Terenceang View Post
    Anyone weighed their Mattoc Pro? What is the actual weight?

    My one was 1900 gramm with full length steerer, Matt black wersion. White version should have a little bit more weight due to paint.
  • 09-22-2014
    Terenceang
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alexey_shmat View Post
    My one was 1900 gramm with full length steerer, Matt black wersion. White version should have a little bit more weight due to paint.

    Thanks!
  • 10-08-2014
    Terenceang
    Do you guys think it is an overkill to install Mattoc Pro lowered to 140mm on a Trance 27.5 for light trail riding (basically no vertical square edged drop of more than 2ft at the trail I usually ride) and I am very light (non-aggressive rider), 130lb with gears?

    I think Pike is definitely an overkill for most of my riding (and a little too expensive), so thinking of changing to either Rockshox Revelation RCT3 or Manitou Mattoc Pro (I can get either one at about the same price).

    Any advice?

    Thanks in advance!
  • 10-09-2014
    Warp
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Terenceang View Post
    Do you guys think it is an overkill to install Mattoc Pro lowered to 140mm on a Trance 27.5 for light trail riding (basically no vertical square edged drop of more than 2ft at the trail I usually ride) and I am very light (non-aggressive rider), 130lb with gears?

    I think Pike is definitely an overkill for most of my riding (and a little too expensive), so thinking of changing to either Rockshox Revelation RCT3 or Manitou Mattoc Pro (I can get either one at about the same price).

    Any advice?

    Thanks in advance!

    Same here.... but I went with an X-Fusion Sweep.
    I was considering the Mattoc too.

    Yeah, you could call it overkill, but the dampers in the 34-36mm forks are well above of what you can find in a Revelation/32 fork. Chassis stiffness will be of little note for us light ones, but welcome anyways and we are talking about a 150-200grs of weight penalty.

    I'd say go for it but it is your call, really.

    I suppose you are on the crappy Fox 32's EVO just like me. Even a Revelation will be an improvement, but I went to the next level.
  • 10-09-2014
    Terenceang
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Same here.... but I went with an X-Fusion Sweep.
    I was considering the Mattoc too.

    Yeah, you could call it overkill, but the dampers in the 34-36mm forks are well above of what you can find in a Revelation/32 fork. Chassis stiffness will be of little note for us light ones, but welcome anyways and we are talking about a 150-200grs of weight penalty.

    I'd say go for it but it is your call, really.

    I suppose you are on the crappy Fox 32's EVO just like me. Even a Revelation will be an improvement, but I went to the next level.

    Actually, I did consider the X-Fusion Sweep too.
    But some people say that X-Fusion fork crown will creak?

    Did you lower your Sweep to 140mm? How does the damper feels?
    Does the 46mm offset (rake) makes any drastic difference (positive or negative)?

    Thanks!!!
  • 10-09-2014
    Warp
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Terenceang View Post
    Actually, I did consider the X-Fusion Sweep too.
    But some people say that X-Fusion fork crown will creak?

    Did you lower your Sweep to 140mm? How does the damper feels?
    Does the 46mm offset (rake) makes any drastic difference (positive or negative)?

    Thanks!!!

    I have not received it yet. I will let you know.

    I have read reports of creaking crowns from all manufacturers so far. Pikes, Mattocs, Sweeps, you name it.

    I went with the X-Fusion for the better reputation of the Aussie distro, so in case anything goes wrong, I'd be covered.

    Also, I am not tinkering as much as I did. So less adjustments is fine by me now given that the damper is all shims and has decent performance. At least close to Mattocs and Pikes.
  • 10-11-2014
    IntenseMack10
    8" Rotor Adaptor
    Just wanted to give a quick follow up for anyone still needing a better solution for using a 203mm rotor with their Mattoc.

    I had previously posted about using a 160-180 adaptor plus a couple chainguide 2.5mm washers. This generally worked but was'nt the best or most elegant solution.

    I cant remember if I saw it on here or maybe ride monkey that Hope makes 160-183 adaptors, which gives the correct 23mm offset for the 180 post mounts on the Mattoc to a 203mm rotor.

    I picked one up, and since they only come in bare aluminum I painted it. Got it mounted up and its perfect.

    Hope this helps anyone still needing the info!

  • 10-19-2014
    beachbum1
    Ok here is a silly question. It looks like the axle to crown length changes with spacers. How is this achieved? I'm not looking for the step by step procedure but more what the spacer does to shorten the length? I have a fox34 evolution with 150 mm travel and am looking for an upgrade. I would like to match the crown to axle length so as to not change the geometry of my bike. The spacers would allow me to do this? Thanks.
  • 10-19-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by beachbum1 View Post
    Ok here is a silly question. It looks like the axle to crown length changes with spacers. How is this achieved? I'm not looking for the step by step procedure but more what the spacer does to shorten the length? I have a fox34 evolution with 150 mm travel and am looking for an upgrade. I would like to match the crown to axle length so as to not change the geometry of my bike. The spacers would allow me to do this? Thanks.

    Spacers go on the compression rod on the spring side. Inside the leg roughly where you find top-out bumpers.

    *edit*
    I've got the schematics now.
    There are three possible spacer positions on the compression rod.
    27" forks get one under the bottomout bumper (to clear the bigger tyre) and the other two can be added above the top-out bumper to reduce travel from 160-150-140mm.
    26" forks can use 1-3 above the topout bumper to reduce travel from 170-140mm.

    To change between 27" and 26" the HBO cone on the rebound damper also needs swapped.
  • 10-21-2014
    beachbum1
    awesome and thanks. Anyone have any good online sources for the Mattoc? The only one I could find is Chain reaction cycles and it is as expensive as the Pike. I would jump on one if I could find one in the $600 range. If I can't find one cheaper than the Pike, I would just assume get the Pike. I tried to get onto promotive and did with my IMBA membership but IMBA doesn't have the manitou brand. Argh.
  • 10-22-2014
    RoboS
    I found best price for Mattoc Expert (and also Pike) here
    https://www.bike-components.de/en/Ma...QR15-o6946121/

    I'm about to order one, but I'm still not 100% sure about it.
  • 10-25-2014
    rideitall
    A little late to the Mattoc party
    After much waffling about I finally ordered a Manitou Mattoc for my bike. Picked up the Mattoc Pro 27.5, at the price I got it I only had the choice of red or red, I ended up picking the red one.

    The Mattoc is noted to need a little time to fully break in before it feels 100%. I have browsed through most of this thread and for the most part people seem to be pretty happy with fork. A few problems have been reported, but seem to be fairly few and far between.

    That said is there anything I need to watch out for?
  • 11-03-2014
    rideitall
    Velostar USA for Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by beachbum1 View Post
    awesome and thanks. Anyone have any good online sources for the Mattoc? The only one I could find is Chain reaction cycles and it is as expensive as the Pike. I would jump on one if I could find one in the $600 range. If I can't find one cheaper than the Pike, I would just assume get the Pike. I tried to get onto promotive and did with my IMBA membership but IMBA doesn't have the manitou brand. Argh.

    I have yet to receive mine, but I ordered one through Velostar USA.
    Manitou - Mattoc Pro Red 1.5" Tapered 26

    I am in Canada, the fork is in customs right now. I can update the status once it arrives. But if you don't mind a red fork, this price can't be beat.

    Cheers
  • 11-03-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    I have yet to receive mine, but I ordered one through Velostar USA.
    Manitou - Mattoc Pro Red 1.5" Tapered 26

    I am in Canada, the fork is in customs right now. I can update the status once it arrives. But if you don't mind a red fork, this price can't be beat.

    Cheers

    Can't wait to hear your report. I will probably have to wait till the spring of 2015 to get the Mattoc.
  • 11-06-2014
    djjohnr
    For those running an 8" rotor, any issues with chassis flex when on the front brake hard?
  • 11-07-2014
    rideitall
    2 Attachment(s)
    Well the post office dropped off the package notice, a quick trip to the local post office and I had my Mattoc. Heading out for the weekend, so won't get chance to install it until next week. A couple of quick snaps for the record.

    It's red, but that was the only choice. The fork on it's own looks nice, however, I think it will likely look like shite when installed on my gold/bronze Trance SX.

    Oh well, first world troubles.

    Ready to open, almost like XMas
    Attachment 937341

    Looking good
    Attachment 937342
  • 11-07-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    Well the post office dropped off the package notice, a quick trip to the local post office and I had my Mattoc. Heading out for the weekend, so won't get chance to install it until next week. A couple of quick snaps for the record.

    It's red, but that was the only choice. The fork on it's own looks nice, however, I think it will likely look like shite when installed on my gold/bronze Trance SX.

    Oh well, first world troubles.

    Ready to open, almost like XMas
    Attachment 937341

    Looking good
    Attachment 937342


    Looks nice! Gold, bronze and red. That should be a sight in the woods!
  • 11-08-2014
    djjohnr
    How has seal lubrication been on your forks? How often are you needing to grease/soak the form wipers?
  • 11-30-2014
    trekninja
    Anyone got any pics of the white mattoc mounted up? I'm about to order one just can't decide black or white
  • 12-02-2014
    Vespasianus
    Hey Rideitall, ever get the fork mounted up? Any ride reports?
  • 12-02-2014
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Hey Rideitall, ever get the fork mounted up? Any ride reports?

    My bad, it is still in the box. Only been out riding a couple of times in the past couple of weeks. This past week it has been cold out here on the west coast. Tonight I hope to install my upgraded KS Lev Integra seat post and the Mattoc.

    Changing to the Mattoc will also involve a stem/bar swap as well. Current fork is the factory Talas 34 (160/140) with the OD2 steerer paired with a 1 1/4 x 70mm x 6 deg rise stem and 730mm x 19mm bar. With the Mattoc I will replace the stem with a 1 1/8 x 60mm x 0 deg rise stem, along with a 750mm bar with 30mm rise.

    Should be fun. Will have to have the heater on in the workshop and perhaps a nice hot chocolate with spiced rum (mmm spiced rum!!!).

    Thanks for the push to get this done.
  • 12-02-2014
    trekninja
    if you have od2 arent you going to need a new headset top cup? not sure what model bike you have but i know on the trance only the 3 came with a standard taper, all the other models came with the fat tube taper
  • 12-02-2014
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by obs08 View Post
    if you have od2 arent you going to need a new headset top cup? not sure what model bike you have but i know on the trance only the 3 came with a standard taper, all the other models came with the fat tube taper


    Yes, that is true, luckily for me I have a couple of standard cups and bearings sets from previous builds. Far as I know it should work.

    The headtube is the same on the Giant OD2 it just uses a different cup and bearing for the 1 1/4 steerer. If I replace with the standard top cup and bearing a standard 1 1/2 to 1 1/8 tape steerer should work fine?
  • 12-03-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    Yes, that is true, luckily for me I have a couple of standard cups and bearings sets from previous builds. Far as I know it should work.

    The headtube is the same on the Giant OD2 it just uses a different cup and bearing for the 1 1/4 steerer. If I replace with the standard top cup and bearing a standard 1 1/2 to 1 1/8 tape steerer should work fine?


    Yeah, just needs a standard 44m cup.
  • 12-03-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Yeah, just needs a standard 44m cup.

    The cup is standard, it's the bearing, wedge and top cap that is different. Just throw a campy 4545 inner bearing, wedge and cap and you're good.
  • 12-03-2014
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The cup is standard, it's the bearing, wedge and top cap that is different. Just throw a campy 4545 inner bearing, wedge and cap and you're good.

    I guess I just worded it poorly. He said he had other headsets laying around so I meant if one is 44mm it will work.
  • 12-03-2014
    rideitall
    Thanks for the feedback on the set up of the OD2 to a regular taper. I thought I had the complete setup but, alas no. After locating the cup and bearing I could not find the compression ring and the top cap. The LBS has a complete top portion of the FSA headset. Will pick it up after work tomorrow along with a few non OD2 spacers.

    Everything else looks to be in order. Will give it a go in hopes of finishing everything up tomorrow.
  • 12-04-2014
    trekninja
    anyone here lowered the mattoc themselves? i just got mine in the mail and need it at 140mm. i printed out the directions, im pretty handy with tools as ive been/was an auto mechanic for 12 years. lbs says about $25 to do it. i do enjoy working on my bike so im tempted to do it myself but for $25, it almost seems easier to let them mess with the oil levels and what not
  • 12-05-2014
    caste
    1 Attachment(s)
    I did, lowered to 140 since day one.
    It's pretty easy but you need to file down an 8mm socket to unbolt the air shaft.

    I did myself because it's an easy job, plus I put the oil I wanted and not some random fork oil laying around like a lot of lbs do.

    Amazing fork, btw.

    Attachment 944168
  • 12-05-2014
    rideitall
    3 Attachment(s)
    Picked up the required headset bits to change from OD2 to regular tape and then mounted up the Mattoc on the bike. The fork looks good on its' own, but would look so much better on the bike if I had been able to get the black lowers rather than red (oh well).

    Haven't got out for a ride as yet. Loaded up the bike this morning and will take the afternoon off to get out for a ride. It was dark this morning but still managed to get a couple of pictures of the updated setup.

    Picture of the Fox 34 Talas Factory and the Manitou Mattoc

    Attachment 944205

    Couple of pictures of the Mattoc on the bike.

    Attachment 944206Attachment 944207

    I did manage to mount up the Mucky Nuts mud fender but it is really tight with the Schwable Magic Mary tire. Have setup the fork with 75 psi feels good, but will need to fine tune once on the trails.
  • 12-05-2014
    trekninja
    i love the gold trance, wish i had one myself
  • 12-08-2014
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    Picture of the Fox 34 Talas Factory and the Manitou Mattoc

    Attachment 944205

    For people swapping between a Fox 34 130-150mm, or a Rockshox Pike, to a Mattoc... uh, isn't the Mattoc quite a bit longer as seen in this pic? I'm considering either a Pike or Mattoc on my Blur TR, which was built for a Fox 32 140mm with 510mm axle-to-crown. The Mattoc 160mm 26" fork says it has 545mm a2c at the stock 160mm travel. That's quite a lot more.

    A 150mm pike is 525mm a2c. That seems a lot more doable on my Blur TR. Which sucks, because I really wanted a Mattoc in general, but especially because Chain Reaction Cycles has the Expert on sale for US$585.

    I guess I'd probably lower the Mattoc to 140mm, which would make it 525mm a2c.
  • 12-08-2014
    rideitall
    3 Attachment(s)
    I now have two rides on the Mattoc on my Trance SX. It replaced a Factory 34 Talas with OD2.

    Took a little fiddling with air pressure, but looks like I got the correct range now. At 190lbs + gear, I am running around 80psi. This is higher than stated range, but it could be my pump as I am also running higher than typical air pressure in my DB Inline.

    I put in recommended air pressure, it felt super smooth but was way too soft, kept adding until it felt right on the and eyeballed about 25mm sag. I was as high as 85psi but lowered down to 80psi on the trails as it was feeling too harsh over small bumps.

    Running 2 -3 clicks of HBO, 1 or 2 LSC and 2 of HSC. Best thing I can say is the other than the seeing the red crown and lowers, the fork just disappears. I really don't notice it, whether it is plowing through rocks and roots or a steep section on the trail, it just works. In comparison to the Talas 34, it does feel smoother and seems to take repeated small to mid size hit better. That said the Factory 34 started to feel better after getting a half dozen or so rides on it. Still uncertain on what I am going to do with the Talas 34 either to sell or have the Push RC2 kit installed. Would be a good comparison to see what difference it would make.

    Learning to deal with no travel adjust and using more body english, so that is ongoing. Anyway here is a couple of pictures of the fork mounted up. For reference I showed a picture of the 34 Talas.

    One last comment on the Manitou, I believe it uses 34mm stanchions like the Fox 34. Even though I am likely close to 200lbs with gear and am a hack in terms of riding light and with flow, I have been pleasantly surprised with both the Fox 34 and the Manitou Mattoc in not feeling any flex from the fork.
  • 12-08-2014
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    For people swapping between a Fox 34 130-150mm, or a Rockshox Pike, to a Mattoc... uh, isn't the Mattoc quite a bit longer as seen in this pic? I'm considering either a Pike or Mattoc on my Blur TR, which was built for a Fox 32 140mm with 510mm axle-to-crown. The Mattoc 160mm 26" fork says it has 545mm a2c at the stock 160mm travel. That's quite a lot more.

    A 150mm pike is 525mm a2c. That seems a lot more doable on my Blur TR. Which sucks, because I really wanted a Mattoc in general, but especially because Chain Reaction Cycles has the Expert on sale for US$585.

    I guess I'd probably lower the Mattoc to 140mm, which would make it 525mm a2c.

    The bike my Mattoc is on originally had a RS Sektor. I just measured both.

    The Sektor (26" 140mm) is ~525mm A2C.
    The Mattoc (26" 160mm) is ~545mm A2C.

    So that's looking pretty much the same.
  • 12-09-2014
    two-one
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    For people swapping between a Fox 34 130-150mm, or a Rockshox Pike, to a Mattoc... uh, isn't the Mattoc quite a bit longer as seen in this pic?

    It looks like the mattoc is resting on its reverse-arch, making it look longer because its crown is elevated from the table surface. It also has a thicker crown
  • 12-09-2014
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The bike my Mattoc is on originally had a RS Sektor. I just measured both.

    The Sektor (26" 140mm) is ~525mm A2C.
    The Mattoc (26" 160mm) is ~545mm A2C.

    So that's looking pretty much the same.

    I decided I couldn't pass up the CRC deal and bought a black 26" Expert 160mm. Worst case, I'll get a zero stack lower bearing for my Cane Creek 40 headset, and lower the Mattoc to 140mm.

    I'm going to start by just riding the damn thing. :thumbsup:
  • 12-09-2014
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by two-one View Post
    It looks like the mattoc is resting on its reverse-arch, making it look longer because its crown is elevated from the table surface. It also has a thicker crown

    Yup, in matching up the axle as best I could, the crown on both forks is remarkably close, looked to be with a couple of mm. Not enough to make me work one way or the other.

    Only second ride and feeling right at home on it.
  • 12-10-2014
    trekninja
    Anyone with an expert model, I just installed mine and I'm counting more clicks on the adjustments than manitou is listing on the set up guide. Anyone else run into this? I had my fork lowered by a very good lbs, but I always worry either way
  • 12-10-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by obs08 View Post
    Anyone with an expert model, I just installed mine and I'm counting more clicks on the adjustments than manitou is listing on the set up guide. Anyone else run into this? I had my fork lowered by a very good lbs, but I always worry either way

    How much more? Are the clicks having changes in the settings (rebound, etc)?

    Also, is this a 2014 or 2015 fork?
  • 12-10-2014
    trekninja
    2015 fork, id have to go back and count exactly but I think it was 3 more on tpc and 1-2 more on hs comp. The hs comp knob is a little weird. It has a few turns that audibly click and 1-2 clicks by feeling without the audible click
  • 12-11-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by obs08 View Post
    2015 fork, id have to go back and count exactly but I think it was 3 more on tpc and 1-2 more on hs comp. The hs comp knob is a little weird. It has a few turns that audibly click and 1-2 clicks by feeling without the audible click

    I would not sweat that. If the knobs do what they are supposed to do, I think you should be OK. They may have modified the fork for 2015. I did hear they modified the QR15 axle. Is it better or easier to use?

    Also, please ride the thing and give more ride reports! I want this fork bad but will have to wait till spring. ):
  • 12-11-2014
    trekninja
    the qr is very easy to use, it took me about 30 seconds to figure it out initially, now its a 2 second operation. and im working on getting a ride in on it. just mounted it up yesterday and picking up the manitou mc leod shock tonight. hopefully this weekend ill be able to give them both a shake down run. its currently snowing so we will see
  • 12-11-2014
    trekninja
    oh btw, i just bought mine off crc for $530 shipped, best price ive seen so far if anyone else is looking
  • 12-11-2014
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by obs08 View Post
    oh btw, i just bought mine off crc for $530 shipped, best price ive seen so far if anyone else is looking

    That is a great price!

    Does it have this feature:

    Answer, Knolly, Nicolai - Eurobike 2014 - Pinkbike
  • 12-12-2014
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by obs08 View Post
    2015 fork, id have to go back and count exactly but I think it was 3 more on tpc and 1-2 more on hs comp. The hs comp knob is a little weird. It has a few turns that audibly click and 1-2 clicks by feeling without the audible click

    Interesting, hs knob on mine (pro) feels similar, 2 clicks with audible click and 3 harder clicks by feeling, in the end 5 clicks against the 6 advertised. Other adjustments are correct.

    I saw on a german forum that other users had mismatching clicks, so it might not be a problem. I will contact Manitou, anyway..
  • 12-12-2014
    trekninja
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caste View Post
    Interesting, hs knob on mine (pro) feels similar, 2 clicks with audible click and 3 harder clicks by feeling, in the end 5 clicks against the 6 advertised. Other adjustments are correct.

    I saw on a german forum that other users had mismatching clicks, so it might not be a problem. I will contact Manitou, anyway..

    id be interested to hear what they have to say. awesome stanton btw, are you in us or uk?
  • 12-17-2014
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    That is a great price!

    Does it have this feature:

    Answer, Knolly, Nicolai - Eurobike 2014 - Pinkbike

    I think you're talking about the revised QR15 axle?

    If so, I just received my Mattoc Expert 2015 from Chain Reaction Cycles, and yes, it does have the new axle shown in these pics. It is relatively easy to use; keyed and has 'UP' engraved on the part of the axle that faces up. However, you do have to dial in your own torque setting, unlike a Fox QR15 which is pre-set from the factory.

    Minor little step, and probably a good thing, provided that the user don't set the torque too high or too low.

    I like the brake housing guides on the left leg, also. Those 10 grams were well spent. ;)
  • 12-17-2014
    mullen119
    Am I the only person who finds the old 15mm axle easy to use? Never had an issue with it.
  • 12-17-2014
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Am I the only person who finds the old 15mm axle easy to use? Never had an issue with it.

    I actually have never used the original one that Manitou had, as my other Manitou fork installs were regular QR. (Wife has a Marvel Pro, FIL has a Tower Expert.)

    I did read a number of early Mattoc reviews (Pinkbike, etc) that complained about it, but I wasn't concerned so I didn't even know mine would have a new style.
  • 01-26-2015
    ColinL
    I have a few rides on my Mattoc Expert so far. It hasn't fully broken in, but I like it so far. Eats up roots and babyheads. I'm running it at 160mm on a Blur TR, which is 30mm more a2c than the fork they designed the frame for (float 32 140mm).

    I am actually quite surprised how well it pedals, even climbing out of the saddle. Also, for anyone sitting on the fence, Chain Reaction cycles now has both the 26 & 27.5 Mattoc Expert for $525.

    I gave it hell yesterday on some 'hero dirt' including berms and it's very stiff. Quite pleased so far, and I'll revisit the length/travel after more miles. Perhaps I'll lower it to 140.
  • 01-26-2015
    djjohnr
    You can also get a Mattoc Pro from hibike.de for $601 right now.
  • 01-26-2015
    ColinL
    Whoa, that's got to be the strength of the dollar against the euro. Nice!!
  • 02-11-2015
    rideitall
    Just a quick post to update on my Mattoc Pro. I ended up having my fork rebuilt as a favour from a local Manitou rep. Didn't need it as it only had a couple of rides. However, similar to Fox and other mftrs, the Mattoc definitely felt better after fresh oil set at the proper volumes. I now have 5-6 rides on the fork and am really liking it.

    Running 2 clicks on HBO, 2 click HSC, and 1 click LSC (sometimes 2), rebound is somewhere near the middle if I recall. I will typically use up most of the travel on harsher hits, and about 3/4 travel on smoother g-out type features, I never feel any harsh feedback or bottom out on the fork.

    The way the fork works, lets me have confidence to allow the bike to just run through a rough section of chunder or successive hits, rather than trying to thread my way through. I get what people have said that the fork feels like a mini-dh fork. The more you push it, the better it feels. That said, my riding abilities are the limiting factor on how the fork performs.

    The only thing that is missing is a travel adjust. If Manitou can get that figured out and make it upgradeable on their existing Mattoc line it would be really sweet. Don't require it all that much, but sometimes on the longer, steeper, grunt type climbs it would be very nice to have.

    All in all, the Mattoc fork for me works and feels much better than the Factory 34 CTD FIT it replaced.
  • 02-11-2015
    ColinL
    ^^ Nice post. I need to order the tools and fluids to service my fork, and I'll probably drop it to 140. How much do you weigh and what's your sag, rideitall?

    I am shedding weight (down 6 pounds since 2/1) as I get back into riding shape, but set my sag for a riding weight of 192 pounds. Between the weight I've lost and the water I wasn't carrying when I set it, I should be about spot-on for 25% sag with 60 psi in the fork.

    Rebound is not the same between the Pro and Expert (which I have). Pro has 9 clicks, Expert only 4. I've got mine on 2.

    On XC trails I run 3 clicks LSC, 1 HBO, 1 HSC. Chunky trails I ride 1 or 2 LSC depending on how much I need to do standing climbs. I pedal from the saddle whenever possible.

    Does anyone use the MILO remote? I've got one but haven't installed it because I never use 5/5 LSC unless I'm riding pavement with my 8 year-old.
  • 02-11-2015
    rideitall
    Colin

    I was running 70-75 psi before having the service. Afterwards I think I was about 5 psi higher, yet is is noticeably smoother and I use more travel. I only go partly on sag, the other component is the feel. Right now, the Mattoc, feels very nice,

    I weight 190lb + gear and ride with a camelback that has with tools, water and usually, and extra jersey and gloves, so likely in the 200lb range.

    Would really like to shed about 10-15 lbs, and increase the fitness, so I could push this fork at little harder and see what it does.

    Edit, PSI was from memory, rather that 70-75 it might have been 80-85, then +5psi with the reworked fork. If I have time tonight I will check it out.
  • 02-12-2015
    LaXCarp
    Has anyone moved from a Marzocchi 55CR to the mattoc? I am thinking of making the switch but I am curious how the two compare. My only complaints about the 55CR is the damping needs some refining as it tends to rebound too quickly and the weight. I would drop about 300g in the switch.

    Will a noticed any loss in stiffness going from 35 to 34mm stanchions?
  • 02-12-2015
    djjohnr
    For anyone changing the travel on their Mattoc that's looking for a compatible cassette tool - the Park FR-1.2 is deep enough, the FR-1 and FR-5 are not.
  • 02-13-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by obs08 View Post
    id be interested to hear what they have to say. awesome stanton btw, are you in us or uk?

    Saw the message ages ago but forgot to answer.. thanks, I wish to be in us! sadly I'm in Italy.
    Still have to ask Manitou, my last two months were quite busy due to work and moving out of parents house.

    By the way, I realized that I could use "only" 135 out of 140mm so there is probably too much oil, plus damping feels less effective. Bath oil is also 6 months old, so it's time for a full-oil change!

    Let's see if I can figure out the reason of that missing click..
  • 02-15-2015
    LaXCarp
    I just bought the pro from CRC. Giggity
  • 02-16-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    I just bought the pro from CRC. Giggity

    Congrats! You'll love it. What kind of bike is it going on, and what are you replacing?
  • 02-16-2015
    LaXCarp
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Congrats! You'll love it. What kind of bike is it going on, and what are you replacing?

    It's going on my 26" knolly endorphin. Replacing a marzocchi 55cr. I really had no complaits about the 55 besides a bit hefty and rebound was always a touch spikey. We will see how it stacks up.
  • 02-16-2015
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    It's going on my 26" knolly endorphin. Replacing a marzocchi 55cr. I really had no complaits about the 55 besides a bit hefty and rebound was always a touch spikey. We will see how it stacks up.

    Will be interesting to hear your ideas on how they stack up. As I understand it the 55 and the new 350 from Marz typically are getting good reveiws. Before I picked up the Mattoc Pro, I was also looking at the 350CR. The price was pretty good, but when the pricing came out on the 350NCR vs the Mattoc Pro, the decision was pretty easy. Got the Mattoc and am happy with it.
  • 02-23-2015
    caste
    Ok, rebuild done.

    Here's a couple of things I found:

    - The Fox Float fluid I used for the air chamber was in the lowers. Maybe it's not thick enough or maybe it's normal, now I will check it every 2/3 months.

    - The air spring travel in 150mm mode is 140, then there is a top-out bumper which can compress about 7 mm so yes, it lacks about 5mm of travel.

    - My high speed compression lacks about 1 click because it probably starts deeper, so it contacts the shim stack earlier. It's probably fixable by disassembling the damper but it's not worth it as I don't need less high speed compression.

    In the end the fork is really nice and quite easy to work on, definitely way better than my old Rock Shoxs and their damned seeger rings.

    Now I should test it in a couple of days, let's see how it will perform with the fresh oil in both lowers and damper.
  • 02-23-2015
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caste View Post
    Ok, rebuild done.

    Here's a couple of things I found:

    - The Fox Float fluid I used for the air chamber was in the lowers. Maybe it's not thick enough or maybe it's normal, now I will check it every 2/3 months.

    - The air spring travel in 150mm mode is 140, then there is a top-out bumper which can compress about 7 mm so yes, it lacks about 5mm of travel.

    - My high speed compression lacks about 1 click because it probably starts deeper, so it contacts the shim stack earlier. It's probably fixable by disassembling the damper but it's not worth it as I don't need less high speed compression.

    In the end the fork is really nice and quite easy to work on, definitely way better than my old Rock Shoxs and their damned seeger rings.

    Now I should test it in a couple of days, let's see how it will perform with the fresh oil in both lowers and damper.

    In the old days, and heck even with my Nixon, I would play with the bumper to get more and better travel. You can cut it down or even just put slices into it that will make travel easier to obtain.
  • 02-23-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    In the old days, and heck even with my Nixon, I would play with the bumper to get more and better travel. You can cut it down or even just put slices into it that will make travel easier to obtain.

    I just measured the dust marks on my 145mm Nixon. I'm getting a hair over 140mm from it.
  • 02-24-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    In the old days, and heck even with my Nixon, I would play with the bumper to get more and better travel. You can cut it down or even just put slices into it that will make travel easier to obtain.

    Yeah, my main concern was to understand if the missing travel was due to hydrolock or something wrong with the air spring.
    Maybe next time I'll shorten the bumper a little bit, but I'm actually fine with 145.
  • 02-24-2015
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caste View Post
    Yeah, my main concern was to understand if the missing travel was due to hydrolock or something wrong with the air spring.
    Maybe next time I'll shorten the bumper a little bit, but I'm actually fine with 145.

    I am a big fan of quality travel versus overall-travel. I use a 2007 Nixon and have never gotten 145mm of travel. The closest I have gotten is probably 135 but I love the feel of the travel.
  • 02-24-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I am a big fan of quality travel versus overall-travel. I use a 2007 Nixon and have never gotten 145mm of travel. The closest I have gotten is probably 135 but I love the feel of the travel.

    Yes of course, that's why I love the Mattoc.. it just feels bottomless.
  • 02-25-2015
    Jlowe33
    I'm looking at a bike that comes with a Mattoc Comp on it. Would it be possible to upgrade it to the expert? Will there even be parts available to do this?
  • 02-25-2015
    Dougal
    Re: Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jlowe33 View Post
    I'm looking at a bike that comes with a Mattoc Comp on it. Would it be possible to upgrade it to the expert? Will there even be parts available to do this?

    I believe there are two main differences. The first is enclosed damper cartridge which is smaller and lighter. That is easy.
    The second is lighter tapered wall stanchions which means swapping the csu once you've swapped the damper to the cartridge version.

    The cost and weight are the only real differences. Performance should be identical.
  • 02-25-2015
    Jlowe33
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I believe there are two main differences. The first is enclosed damper cartridge which is smaller and lighter. That is easy.
    The second is lighter tapered wall stanchions which means swapping the csu once you've swapped the damper to the cartridge version.

    The cost and weight are the only real differences. Performance should be identical.

    Thank you for the info. I was mainly wanting to do it for a little more adjustment to play with.
  • 02-25-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jlowe33 View Post
    Thank you for the info. I was mainly wanting to do it for a little more adjustment to play with.

    Yeah sorry missed the "comp" part before. I've yet to see one of those in person.

    I don't know if the comp has the same rebound damper as the Expert or not. The Pro damper cartridge would be the known upgrade path.
  • 02-25-2015
    ktm520
    Comp has abs+ damper and mars spring according to manitou website. Basically a stiffer and longer minute pro. You might be able to drop in an expert damper but doubt it will convert to Dorado spring.
  • 03-02-2015
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    Colin

    I was running 70-75 psi before having the service. Afterwards I think I was about 5 psi higher, yet is is noticeably smoother and I use more travel. I only go partly on sag, the other component is the feel. Right now, the Mattoc, feels very nice,

    I weight 190lb + gear and ride with a camelback that has with tools, water and usually, and extra jersey and gloves, so likely in the 200lb range.

    Would really like to shed about 10-15 lbs, and increase the fitness, so I could push this fork at little harder and see what it does.

    Edit, PSI was from memory, rather that 70-75 it might have been 80-85, then +5psi with the reworked fork. If I have time tonight I will check it out.

    Was riding yesterday and checked the fork air pressure. I was down to just over 80psi. Given that you loose a little pressure when attaching the pump I added back up to 95psi, felt good when pushing harder, but a little too firm over the small bumps. Dropped down to 90psi and magic.

    Running 2 clicks HBO, 1 or 2 HSC, and 1 LSC. The fork just disappears along with most of the bumps. Even managed a section of chattery downhill with switchbacks much faster than before, with the front tire glued to the ground.
  • 03-06-2015
    mullen119
    Mattoc Experts $499 at price point

    Search Results | Price Point
  • 03-06-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Mattoc Experts $499 at price point

    Search Results | Price Point

    That is a great price.
  • 03-06-2015
    Vespasianus
    Crap, you are not kidding. I am planning on picking up a Mattoc Pro in April but at that price, it might be worth just getting the expert.
  • 03-06-2015
    rideitall
    I can't speak to the difference between the Pro and Expert, but can confirm the Pro is a fantastic fork. So much better thank the factory 34.

    Now if only Manitou can keep it together and get the travel adjust back. The only negative to the Mattoc, is I still find the q-release not so quick. But that could just be me.
  • 03-06-2015
    ColinL
    The Pro's rebound is different and has 9 adjustment clicks whereas the Expert has only 4, but I don't know how wide the range of adjustment is on each. On my expert there's definitely a difference between each of the four clicks.

    Otherwise, they're supposed to be identical except for weight. Expert is 120g heavier.
  • 03-07-2015
    ktm520
    Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The Pro's rebound is different and has 9 adjustment clicks whereas the Expert has only 4, but I don't know how wide the range of adjustment is on each. On my expert there's definitely a difference between each of the four clicks.

    Otherwise, they're supposed to be identical except for weight. Expert is 120g heavier.

    Have you verified the low number of detents on the expert lsr with Manitou? Makes no sense.
  • 03-08-2015
    Vespasianus
    A lot of the magazine reviews, which I do question, are stating that the Mattoc is ~30mm short of travel and is having some reliability problems. Anybody notice anything odd with theirs?
  • 03-08-2015
    Dougal
    Re: Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    A lot of the magazine reviews, which I do question, are stating that the Mattoc is ~30mm short of travel and is having some reliability problems. Anybody notice anything odd with theirs?

    Nope. Mine is delivering like it should.

    However the Dorado air spring the Mattoc uses is very sensitive to the air valve which connects the two chambers being set correctly. If it's not quite right you could have too much trapped air in the negative side which will lower the fork and reduce travel.

    I have seen opposite problem on a Dorado with trapped positive air making the fork oversprung and harsh.

    It's an easy fix, literally a turn off an Allen key once you're inside.
  • 03-08-2015
    ktm520
    Dougal, which Mattoc model do you have?
  • 03-08-2015
    scar4me
    There is a simple check you can visually do on lower air valve.
    Make sure it's as shown in this LINK

    Some other servicing tips there too :)


    Scar
  • 03-08-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    Dougal, which Mattoc model do you have?

    Mattoc Pro, set to 26" and 160mm.
  • 03-09-2015
    ColinL
    My Mattoc Expert is working fine, and it's also 26" 160mm.
  • 03-09-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    A lot of the magazine reviews, which I do question, are stating that the Mattoc is ~30mm short of travel and is having some reliability problems. Anybody notice anything odd with theirs?

    Mine is fine, I recently used 140 out of 140mm in a big g-out. As I've stated before, my fork is set to 150mm but the effective travel (measured on the air spring) is 140.
  • 03-10-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nope. Mine is delivering like it should.

    However the Dorado air spring the Mattoc uses is very sensitive to the air valve which connects the two chambers being set correctly. If it's not quite right you could have too much trapped air in the negative side which will lower the fork and reduce travel.

    I have seen opposite problem on a Dorado with trapped positive air making the fork oversprung and harsh.

    It's an easy fix, literally a turn off an Allen key once you're inside.

    Can you elaborate on the easy fix for us?

    I've had no issues with mine thus far. They are only 1 ride old though.
  • 03-10-2015
    Dougal
    Re: Manitou Mattoc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Can you elaborate on the easy fix for us?

    I've had no issues with mine thus far. They are only 1 ride old though.

    The poppet valve between the two air chambers is adjusted by an Allen key up inside it. It also changes protrusion of the valve rod you can see under the air cap.

    If this valve is adjusted incorrectly then you'll get air either trapped in one chamber or leaking out of one chamber.
  • 03-12-2015
    rhyolite
    Thanks. Is there any info out there as to what the exact position of the poppet valve should be?

    I have got just over 160mm of stanchion exposed (from wiper to bottom of lowest point of the crown) on my 26" model set to 160mm. I've bottomed it out and it appears to only have around 155mm of actual travel. From what I've read this is normal?
  • 03-12-2015
    scar4me
    links
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Thanks. Is there any info out there as to what the exact position of the poppet valve should be?

    I have got just over 160mm of stanchion exposed (from wiper to bottom of lowest point of the crown) on my 26" model set to 160mm. I've bottomed it out and it appears to only have around 155mm of actual travel. From what I've read this is normal?

    I already did about 4 replies up...... ;)

    Quote:

    There is a simple check you can visually do on lower air valve.
    Make sure it's as shown in this LINK

    Some other servicing tips there too


    Scar
  • 03-12-2015
    rhyolite
    Champion. Thanks for the guidance guys!

    I wonder if it's still a luck of the draw thing or if Manitou have fixed this for 2015. My poppet position from factory is fine.
  • 03-12-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Champion. Thanks for the guidance guys!

    I wonder if it's still a luck of the draw thing or if Manitou have fixed this for 2015. My poppet position from factory is fine.

    Honestly they can be difficult to setup initially. But if they are known to have a problem due to the rod protruding in either direction it is easy to fix that.

    You can set one up where it should be good and find a customer has a shock pump that doesn't depress the rod far enough.
  • 03-13-2015
    rhyolite
    Okay fair enough.

    Mine actually is suffering from the travel loss issue. I noticed it mid ride, and it wasn't just obvious from the lack of stanchion protruding. The fork started feeling quite strange and inconsistent.

    I measured the protrusion of my poppet valve and it is sticking out 1.5-2mm. I assumed (based on the pink bike link) that the main issue arises when the poppet is actually recessed relative to the end of the valve. Is this not the case? Dougal you seem to indicate this above (the rod protruding in either direction)?

    I'll pull the air spring apart anyway and set it to 1mm. Hopefully that will fix the problem.
  • 03-13-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Okay fair enough.

    Mine actually is suffering from the travel loss issue. I noticed it mid ride, and it wasn't just obvious from the lack of stanchion protruding. The fork started feeling quite strange and inconsistent.

    I measured the protrusion of my poppet valve and it is sticking out 1.5-2mm. I assumed (based on the pink bike link) that the main issue arises when the poppet is actually recessed relative to the end of the valve. Is this not the case? Dougal you seem to indicate this above (the rod protruding in either direction)?

    I'll pull the air spring apart anyway and set it to 1mm. Hopefully that will fix the problem.

    I measured the rod protrusion on mine today, exactly 1mm.

    BTW, if anyone is feeling like travel is a bit short, make sure the fork is fully extended when a pump is connected. These essentially lock onto the travel they're at when the pump is released.

    I got 150mm even out of mine today, I went down to 45psi and up in damping. Forgot to check the HBO after others were riding it around turning the knobs.

    5 months old now. Almost time for a service.
  • 03-14-2015
    material guy
    Some things that I have discovered:
    1) I have found out that some shock pumps do not like to work well with my Mattoc. I now use a "0" loss pump.
    2) When I check the air pressure I have my bike upside down and stand on the grips while pulling up on the front wheel to make shure I have all of my travel.
    3) At one point I would loose 10 - 15mm of travel after a coupple of rides. This was because of the oil in the air spring, Manitou service tec said to use a light suspension greese instead of the oil, this has done the trick to not loose my travel while riding. (this was not due to the poppet valve).
    4) Just because; I thought that I would play around with the volume in the air spring, I picked up some Revelation bottemless tokkens, used hot glue to add the first one to the air cap (there is a grove in the air cap to keep things in place) then can add or subtract them as needeed. I am now using 3 tokens and love the way the fork is now working.
  • 03-14-2015
    gregnash
    Dougal, do you think (I said think dont want to jeopardize an NDA) that Manitou will release a 29er version of the Mattoc?
  • 03-14-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    1) I have found out that some shock pumps do not like to work well with my Mattoc. I now use a "0" loss pump.

    4) Just because; I thought that I would play around with the volume in the air spring, I picked up some Revelation bottemless tokkens, used hot glue to add the first one to the air cap (there is a grove in the air cap to keep things in place) then can add or subtract them as needeed. I am now using 3 tokens and love the way the fork is now working.

    Which specific pump are you using?

    And did you try adjusting the HBO before using air tokens?
  • 03-14-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Dougal, do you think (I said think dont want to jeopardize an NDA) that Manitou will release a 29er version of the Mattoc?

    Sorry I've got no idea. The 29 inch all mountain segment seems to be a shrinking one though.
  • 03-14-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Which specific pump are you using?

    And did you try adjusting the HBO before using air tokens?

    I use an SKS shock pump.
    Yes I played around with the HBO, just wanted to fiddle around with the tokens for kicks. Found that I could run about 5psi less so I had more sensitivity at the top of the stroke but still have great mid support.
  • 03-14-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    I use an SKS shock pump.
    Yes I played around with the HBO, just wanted to fiddle around with the tokens for kicks. Found that I could run about 5psi less so I had more sensitivity at the top of the stroke but still have great mid support.

    Have you tried running more compression damping instead of more spring progression?

    I much prefer these as linear as possible. A more progressive spring stores and returns too much energy deeper in the travel which makes the fork kick.
    As well as using less mid stroke which makes the fork harsher.

    Normally a more progressive spring is of value when the rider rides over small bumps on the way off the cliff.
  • 03-14-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Have you tried running more compression damping instead of more spring progression?

    I much prefer these as linear as possible. A more progressive spring stores and returns too much energy deeper in the travel which makes the fork kick.
    As well as using less mid stroke which makes the fork harsher.

    Normally a more progressive spring is of value when the rider rides over small bumps on the way off the cliff.

    Yes I did try to add more compression and the fork was not quite there for me.
    Had a Pike to start where we did not get along, felt like IT kicked compared to the Mattoc.
    I do not ride off of cliffs, and am about 190 lbs geared up.
    The Mattoc is on a Sight and set to 150mm with a crash and bash riding style.
    The fork does not kick at all with the more progressive spring. The Relevation tokens are quite small compared to the Pikes tokens which I am sure you are aware of so the amount of change is not great but noticeable.
  • 03-15-2015
    ktm520
    I wonder if the Pike has a digressive (preloaded) rebound stack like they are using in their monarch shocks? That wouldn't play as well with a progressive spring, like Dougal mentioned. I'm guessing the Mattoc has a linear rebound stack.
  • 03-15-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    Yes I did try to add more compression and the fork was not quite there for me.
    Had a Pike to start where we did not get along, felt like IT kicked compared to the Mattoc.
    I do not ride off of cliffs, and am about 190 lbs geared up.
    The Mattoc is on a Sight and set to 150mm with a crash and bash riding style.
    The fork does not kick at all with the more progressive spring. The Relevation tokens are quite small compared to the Pikes tokens which I am sure you are aware of so the amount of change is not great but noticeable.

    The Pike RC has a really heavy and preloaded compression shim stack. I've been able to soften up a mates one enough to get full travel. But it will need a lot more work to feel as good as a Mattoc.
    The RTC3 is a different compression damper and I haven't been into one yet.
  • 03-15-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The Pike RC has a really heavy and preloaded compression shim stack. I've been able to soften up a mates one enough to get full travel. But it will need a lot more work to feel as good as a Mattoc.
    The RTC3 is a different compression damper and I haven't been into one yet.

    It was the RTC3 that I had, tried it at 160mm and 150mm. Just could not get along with the fork. Felt that it was pushing back too much which had me too far over the front end on more that a few occasions in less than ideal situations. Not a great feeling, and not the only person who has felt that way about the Pike.
  • 03-16-2015
    rhyolite
    Thanks for your help Dougal.

    Update from me:

    Rebuilt the fork and adjusted the poppet to 1mm out from the valve. When I rebuilt the air spring I did not pour in any oil (as mentioned above) - I simply lightly greased the appropriate o rings with slick honey/slickoleum. This should solve the oil migration issue in the pos and negative chambers.

    After one hard ride the forks are holding their travel so I'm hopeful that problem is now fixed.

    Regarding setup, I'm running around 40psi, with 5 clicks of HSC, 1.5 clicks of LSC and HBO all the way off. I'm finding gives me a nice linear sort of fork, with really good mid stroke support and good small bump sensitivity. Loving them!
  • 03-19-2015
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Thanks for your help Dougal.

    Update from me:

    Rebuilt the fork and adjusted the poppet to 1mm out from the valve. When I rebuilt the air spring I did not pour in any oil (as mentioned above) - I simply lightly greased the appropriate o rings with slick honey/slickoleum. This should solve the oil migration issue in the pos and negative chambers.

    After one hard ride the forks are holding their travel so I'm hopeful that problem is now fixed.

    Regarding setup, I'm running around 40psi, with 5 clicks of HSC, 1.5 clicks of LSC and HBO all the way off. I'm finding gives me a nice linear sort of fork, with really good mid stroke support and good small bump sensitivity. Loving them!



    Wow, 40psi seems quite low. What is your riding weight? Also 5 clicks HSC. Have you tried to slightly increase air pressure while backing off some HSC? If so what results.
  • 03-19-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    Wow, 40psi seems quite low. What is your riding weight? Also 5 clicks HSC. Have you tried to slightly increase air pressure while backing off some HSC? If so what results.

    I agree with this. 5 clicks of HSC sounds quite harsh, especially for only 40psi. 40psi sounds like 30% sag for a very, very light rider. Like 130 pounds?
  • 03-20-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I agree with this. 5 clicks of HSC sounds quite harsh, especially for only 40psi. 40psi sounds like 30% sag for a very, very light rider. Like 130 pounds?

    I was running 45psi in an Enduro race last weekend and probably 75kg geared up. I was getting tired and needed the fork to suck up more of the roots and rocks. So it did!
  • 03-24-2015
    will1994
    Hoping someone on this forum will have some insight into my problem - Manitou don't have a particularly large footprint here in the UK so haven't as of yet managed to contact (asides from through Hayes, though they haven't yet responded) them directly.
    Bought a Mattoc expert a few weeks ago, although due to its 15mm axle configuration ended up having to wait a few weeks for an Easton 15mm axle converter which (finally!) arrived 3-4 days ago.
    Unfortunately however the fork feels ridiculously soft, with sag measured at around 35% at recommended air pressure and has virtually zero mid-stroke support (am able, with quite minimal effort to cycle the fork through around 120mm of its travel before it stiffens up quite considerably). The poppet valve thingy is protruding 1mm as recommended (prior to adjusting it sat at around a 2mm protrusion) which has led me to conjecture that perhaps there's insufficient oil in the damping cylinder/leg? Any suggestions would be very welcome - as you may have guessed I'm not particularly clued up on suspension matters!
  • 03-24-2015
    djjohnr
    Shock pump gauges are crap. Set air pressure to whatever gives you 20-25% sag.
  • 03-24-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by djjohnr View Post
    Shock pump gauges are crap. Set air pressure to whatever gives you 20-25% sag.

    Agreed. Also, set your sag with your LSC and HSC set to 1.
  • 03-24-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    Wow, 40psi seems quite low. What is your riding weight? Also 5 clicks HSC. Have you tried to slightly increase air pressure while backing off some HSC? If so what results.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I agree with this. 5 clicks of HSC sounds quite harsh, especially for only 40psi. 40psi sounds like 30% sag for a very, very light rider. Like 130 pounds?

    I'm pretty light, around 75kg geared up. My pump may not be particularly accurate.

    I've tried a few different settings (including a higher psi) but if I run much more than 40 I compromise my ability to use my travel where I need it. This is with the HBO all the way off as well. I wonder if I do have too much oil in the damper or something, making them harder to bottom out.
  • 03-24-2015
    rhyolite
    Is anyone having problems with their hex lock axle? Mine is stiff and pretty hard to remove. I was hoping it would free up with use but there's only been a minor improvement.
  • 03-24-2015
    eb1888
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The 29 inch all mountain segment seems to be a shrinking one though.

    Bikes like the Evil Following and the Trek Remedy 9.8 are expanding it again and selling out.
    A Mattoc at 130 would compete favorably against a Fox 36 51mm offset on the Evil.
    This vid shows a Following leaving a prototype 27.5 Transition behind again and again.

    ONE LAP - Lars Sternberg & Luke Strobel, Xanadu - Mountain Biking Videos - Vital MTB
  • 03-25-2015
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Is anyone having problems with their hex lock axle? Mine is stiff and pretty hard to remove. I was hoping it would free up with use but there's only been a minor improvement.

    Yes, the axle on my Mattoc was very hard to remove. Rather than have the bike upside down or on a stand, I finally got the axle to release by lying the bike on its side, unlocked the axle, loosened up the adjuster nut on the hex-loc. After wiggling it around a little it finally let go. Cleaned up the axle, put a light coat of grease on it and has been good to go since then.
  • 03-25-2015
    redmars
    A trick that works on me is to separate the end lowers with my hands once you open the lock and the the axle is easier to release then.
  • 03-25-2015
    ColinL
    Mine was a little clunky to begin with, but after using the axle only a few times (maybe 3?) it has worked smoothly and easily. Pull down, 1/4 turn to the right, pull out. It's much faster than threading in the Fox QR15 I had on my last fork.
  • 03-25-2015
    mykel
    So, the question is Pro or Expert.
    70.00 dollar difference.

    Besides the weight, any reason to go Pro?
  • 03-25-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    So, the question is Pro or Expert.
    70.00 dollar difference.

    Besides the weight, any reason to go Pro?

    Pro has 9 steps of rebound adjustment, Expert has 5. I do not know if the range is the same. I do know that I run my expert 1 click in from full fast.

    LSC, HSC and HBO are the same.

    The difference was much more than $70 when I bought my Expert in December 2014. I paid $590 + $20 shipping from CRC, and I couldn't find the Pro anywhere for less than $800.

    But now it looks like the Pro is $580-590. I'd jump on that!
  • 03-26-2015
    mykel
    Another two questions if I may...

    What is the deal with the lost travel?
    Have read about it in a couple of places.

    Is this normal, and is it fixable... Don't know if I want a 150mm travel fork that only gets 135-140mm.
    The other question is how does it do under a heavier rider - about 220 geared up?

    Thank-you

    michael
  • 03-26-2015
    gregnash
    Looks like the issue is related to the poppet not protruding from the valve enough (in some cases the valve not getting depressed enough to properly increase the PSI). That is just my take from it and hopefully Manitou is in the process of fixing with the 2015 models.
  • 03-26-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    Another two questions if I may...

    What is the deal with the lost travel?
    Have read about it in a couple of places.

    Is this normal, and is it fixable... Don't know if I want a 150mm travel fork that only gets 135-140mm.
    The other question is how does it do under a heavier rider - about 220 geared up?

    Thank-you

    michael

    Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

    Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel
  • 03-26-2015
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

    Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel

    Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.
  • 03-26-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.

    Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.
  • 03-26-2015
    mykel
    I don't really know how Fox does it, they can release total crap, and people keep buying...
    While the new 36 sounds like a great fork, and Fox has supposedly fixed the bushing issues, it is still over a G-note.
    Either the spring sucks, or the damper has issues, they do get it right eventually, but the public seems to do a lot of product testing for them.
    Then Fox learns what it should have done, then offers its testers the upgrade for a nominal fee...
    The thing that gets me is they have been doing this for years, but for some reason never seem to take the hit.

    As for a new product needing a bit of love, I agree, we should not have to do anything but cut steerer, install and ride.
    However history has shown us that every mfg seems to have a problem getting the correct amounts of fluids/lubricants in their thousand dollar products....then when it all goes pear shaped, it is not their fault but the customer for whatever reason, but we all know if the product was as it says on the tin, then most of the problems would not exist.

    I don't really have a huge problem sorting the air-valve, travel adjust spacers and even some finangled air tokens if required as long as the potential is there. It is pretty much SOP now. If I don't loose small bump with the proper air pressure, it does not dive excessively, and can take some gnar without loosing its sh!t then I'm good - even with - 5 mm.

    Probably going to order a black 26 160 Pro from CRC for 7 bills canadian in the next couple of days - unless something new comes up or I stumble upon a killer deal.

    michael
  • 03-26-2015
    ColinL
    You won't need air tokens. I have no idea why someone would do that when hydraulic bottom out achieves the same thing, only better. Most people are riding with HBO set to either 1 or 2 (of 5!) so there surely is a lot of tuning to be had to not have to resort to screwing with the air spring volume.
  • 03-27-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

    Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.


    Hey guys, this is not a widespread issue that requires a fix for all forks. It's adjustment required for some forks. It can also be a problem caused by the pump used not depressing the rod.

    As for travel. I'm getting a hair over 150mm from my 160mm Mattoc. I haven't yet been into the fork to check bottom-out bumper height. But normally full travel requires the bumpers to be pretty much flattened.
    With the HBO my fork feels like it's only just kissing the bumpers and the last bit of travel is there for the moments you think you're going to die.
  • 03-27-2015
    Trajan
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.

    I think the problem is that Fox can get away with it and Manitou can't. I love how Fox completely changed their compression rates and now everyone is saying the original setting was very harsh and now it is like butter. Yet, 6 months ago, it was butter. I am more convinced than ever that Fox makes junk and pays people to review their product.
  • 03-27-2015
    lanceuppercut
    My Mattoc Pro uses full travel and has been flawless.
  • 03-27-2015
    rideitall
    Agreed to above. My Mattoc Pro has been great. I have the HBO at 2 and it does what it should. Might even be able to back it out to 1, either that or leave at 2 and drop air pressure a little bit. I also leave both compression adjusters at 1 or 2, so I might be using the air spring more than I need, that said it works great.

    Might be able to get even better small bump compliant by dropping the air pressure a touch and then boosting up compression and/or HBO.

    Not certain on any travel loss as I have never measured, but was advised that you can essentially reduce the travel by compressing the fork while pump is attached. The reverse is also true that you can reset the travel by fully extending the fork while pump is attached.

    As I understand it, if / when a travel adjust system comes out, it will essentially work the same way.

    Today I have a brand new 2015 Fox 36 Talas arriving and hope to get it on the bike tonight, then get a couple of rides on it this weekend. I am not going to sell my Mattoc, it is just the gear junkie in my wanting to see how the two forks compare.

    Some have complained about the Mattoc, but from what I read on the 2015 Fox 36 forum, the more expensive Fox 36 fork needs a 2 cent ziptie to equalize pressure between the pos/neg chambers. As much as technology has improved some things still have us going ... wtf.
  • 03-27-2015
    ColinL
    I have a somewhat unique situation of putting a Mattoc on a 5" bike. Even after reducing the travel to 140mm, I find that anything gnarly enough to bottom the fork will definitely bottom out my shock.

    My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

    Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
    LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
    HSC - always 1/5
    HBO - 1/5
    Rebound 2/5

    The Mattoc tuning guide is a little confusing because it considers max damping to be zero, and backing it off counts up: 0 is fully closed and 4 is fully open for HBO, as an example. That's fine-- but usually on MTBR people are talking the other direction, clicks up from open.

    I would prefer a heavier rider comment with their experience, but I think based on my settings (low air pressure and nearly open damping) that the fork would do quite well for someone in the 220-250 pound range.

    Also, I still haven't installed my MILO. I think it would be great for enduro racing, but for trail riding, there is no need to crank up the LSC on the fly. The fork does really, really well under heavy braking and climbing. It doesn't bob much (at least at 25% sag) and the brake dive is way less than the last fork I used, which admittedly was nowhere near this caliber - it was a Float 32 120 RLC. On that fork, if you dialed in enough LSC to resist brake dive, small bump performance went to shit.
  • 03-27-2015
    djjohnr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I have a somewhat unique situation of putting a Mattoc on a 5" bike. Even after reducing the travel to 140mm, I find that anything gnarly enough to bottom the fork will definitely bottom out my shock.

    My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

    Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
    LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
    HSC - always 1/5
    HBO - 1/5
    Rebound 2/5

    The Mattoc tuning guide is a little confusing because it considers max damping to be zero, and backing it off counts up: 0 is fully closed and 4 is fully open for HBO, as an example. That's fine-- but usually on MTBR people are talking the other direction, clicks up from open.

    I would prefer a heavier rider comment with their experience, but I think based on my settings (low air pressure and nearly open damping) that the fork would do quite well for someone in the 220-250 pound range.

    Also, I still haven't installed my MILO. I think it would be great for enduro racing, but for trail riding, there is no need to crank up the LSC on the fly. The fork does really, really well under heavy braking and climbing. It doesn't bob much (at least at 25% sag) and the brake dive is way less than the last fork I used, which admittedly was nowhere near this caliber - it was a Float 32 120 RLC. On that fork, if you dialed in enough LSC to resist brake dive, small bump performance went to shit.

    I'm roughly the same weight as you (170-180lbs wet depending on the time of year, + 10lbs in gear). I run 25% sag up front and 30% in the rear measured DH style (ie in the standing attack position). 127mm of rear travel and 140mm front. Your setup would be a bit soft for me. I run HBO all the way in, LSC 2 clicks out from closed, and HSC 2 clicks out from closed. I don't remember my exact LSR setting but it's closer to closed then open to keep pressure on the HSR stack.

    What frame/shock combo are you running? I have a Yeti SB75 with a Float CTD. The TPC+ damper in the Mattoc is a traditional speed sensitive shimmed damper, while the Float CTD uses a position sensitive Boost Valve. A high velocity impact that would be handled immediately by the high speed compression circuit in the Mattoc wont reach the same damping resistance until later in the travel in the Float CTD due to it being a position sensitive damper rather then a speed sensitive damper. My preferred solution to the imbalance is to run a shock using a traditional shimmed setup.
  • 03-27-2015
    rideitall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    ... My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

    Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
    LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
    HSC - always 1/5
    HBO - 1/5
    Rebound 2/5 ...

    Colin, I am similar in weight 190 before gear and like you would like to get down to 175. Wish us well in that. However, I run considerably more air pressure to setup my fork. Likely only running about 20% sag. I use air pressure and sag more a guideline, in the end I go with how the fork feels on both the smaller chatter and bigger bumps.

    I wonder if the travel reduction plays a part in the air pressure required to get a certain amount of sag.

    I was running around 80psi in my Mattoc before it was serviced. (Local Manitou rep saw me with the fork and said to bring it in. It only had a few rides on it but what the heck, free fork service, I am in)

    After the service he had indicated I would likely use more air pressure to get the same sag. I might be able to drop 5 PSI as i rarely get within an inch of bottom out.

    The other consideration is the trails we ride. I am in Vancouver and use the bike for all my mtn biking, which in includes North Shore, Squamish and Vancouver Island. I don't want to have my fork too soft when hitting steep and rough trails.
  • 03-29-2015
    rhyolite
    Glad to hear there are people out there who have had a flawless Mattoc from the start. However, I still think my comments are fair based on my experiences and a number of similar issues I have read about during my forum browsing. I'm not bagging out the Mattoc at all, infact I love mine and would have nothing else.

    I've felt what I believed was the bottom of my fork (running into gutters at low pressure) and I measured it at 155mm. I believe someone on this forum or another managed to measure internally the actual travel and came out with a number 5-10mm short of quoted travel.
  • 03-29-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    You won't need air tokens. I have no idea why someone would do that when hydraulic bottom out achieves the same thing, only better. Most people are riding with HBO set to either 1 or 2 (of 5!) so there surely is a lot of tuning to be had to not have to resort to screwing with the air spring volume.

    100% agreed. I really don't understand how you could feel the need for bottomless tokens when 1) You have an air sprung fork that is naturally going to be quite progressive at the end of stroke and 2) You have hydraulic bottom out adjustment.
  • 03-29-2015
    djjohnr
    Air volume spacers do more then increase bottom out resistance; they increase ramp up throughout the entire stroke of the spring. Let's say your fork at standard volume produces 1 units of resistance at 1/3 travel, 2 units at 2/3 travel and 4 units at full travel. Using a spacer that doubles resistance would give you 2 units at 1/3, 4 at 2/3 and 8 at full travel. Long story short - volume spacers let you increase support throughout the stroke, not just at the end.

    I haven't felt the need for air tokens with the Mattoc yet, however I may in the future depending on the terrain (I haven't had the fork all that long).
  • 03-29-2015
    material guy
    Hello all,
    Just to recap, I added the tokens to my Mattoc just for kicks at the start. I had the tokens from my wifes Relevation so for the hell of it I thought that I would try it and see what happens. At 3 tokens this seemed to be my sweet spot with the fork and by chance my bike feels to be well balanced front to rear.
    I have the fork on a Sight with an Inline that has 1.5 volume spacers installed.
    This set up works for me and my riding style, it might suck for some one else but I don't lend out my bike for any one to feel how "bad" my bike rides.
  • 03-30-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by djjohnr View Post
    Air volume spacers do more then increase bottom out resistance; they increase ramp up throughout the entire stroke of the spring. Let's say your fork at standard volume produces 1 units of resistance at 1/3 travel, 2 units at 2/3 travel and 4 units at full travel. Using a spacer that doubles resistance would give you 2 units at 1/3, 4 at 2/3 and 8 at full travel. Long story short - volume spacers let you increase support throughout the stroke, not just at the end.

    Adding air alone allows you to increase support throughout the stroke, using the air spring curve that Manitou designed. Then you click in the hydraulic bottom out adjustment if you're bottoming out the fork, or leave it on the lightest setting if you aren't.

    The problem of adding tokens is exactly what you said. It makes the air spring more progressive. This makes an air spring curve that no longer matches the damper curves in the way Manitou intended.

    Is it good or bad to do so? Depends on if you think they did a good job to start with. :D
  • 03-30-2015
    ColinL
    Regarding my air pressure being lower than others my riding weight - probably my shock pump is not that accurate and is reading low. That would be the easiest explanation.

    Another explanation could be that my fork has more stiction than others. Hopefully that's not it...
  • 03-30-2015
    scar4me
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The problem of adding tokens is exactly what you said. It makes the air spring more progressive. This makes an air spring curve that no longer matches the damper curves in the way Manitou intended.

    Nail on the head.
    A more progressive air spring causes a much un-wanted increase in forces required to dampen when at full compression.
    Normally this is done when the compression damper isn't really man enough to deal with the big impact bottom out, so relies on the air spring curve to make sure it never bottoms hard.
    HBO does this perfectly on it's own.

    So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.

    Manitou have done an excellent job at making a fork simple, and an outstanding damper that makes it all shine.

    Personally I wish they'd put the Air valve at the top, and just put an "equalise" button on the footnut to equalise the negative chamber. This would also give the ability to "tune" the negative pressure on its own.

    It's just such a shame that the simple job of putting it together in a factory seems to have not identified the critical flaws of improperly set poppet valves, and having too much oil in the air chamber.


    Scar
  • 03-30-2015
    djjohnr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    Nail on the head.
    A more progressive air spring causes a much un-wanted increase in forces required to dampen when at full compression.
    Normally this is done when the compression damper isn't really man enough to deal with the big impact bottom out, so relies on the air spring curve to make sure it never bottoms hard.
    HBO does this perfectly on it's own.

    So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.

    Manitou have done an excellent job at making a fork simple, and an outstanding damper that makes it all shine.

    Personally I wish they'd put the Air valve at the top, and just put an "equalise" button on the footnut to equalise the negative chamber. This would also give the ability to "tune" the negative pressure on its own.

    It's just such a shame that the simple job of putting it together in a factory seems to have not identified the critical flaws of improperly set poppet valves, and having too much oil in the air chamber.


    Scar

    - I think what you're trying to say is the return force is increased and requires more high speed rebound damping. That's true, but the same thing applies if you add more air to the shock. The rebound stack is really only tuned for a single value, probably a ~160lb rider with the low speed rebound needle set to the middle of it's range. So as soon as you deviate from that it's a moot point anyway.

    - Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.
  • 03-30-2015
    scar4me
    That is what I was getting at, but the rebound shimstack has an effective working range for different rider weights\air spring pressures causing different shaft velocities. Adding volume spacers may well take you to the upper edge of those velocities if recovering from a big impact, so a slight adjustment of the rebound stack would do well to compensate.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by djjohnr View Post
    - Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.

    I can understand why users may want to add them, as the Mattoc may well make a bike's suspension front\rear balance un-even (like I've found).
    I had even looked into adding spacers, but ended up replacing my rear shock anyway.

    At the end of the day it's a suspension platform that can be tuned to exactly how you want if you've got the time\patience or know how.
    Adjusting shimstacks is definitely not what I'd call a standard user adjustment by any means :)


    Scar
  • 03-30-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    Nail on the head.

    So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.



    Scar


    My fork does not buck with the volume spacers.
  • 03-30-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by djjohnr View Post
    - I think what you're trying to say is the return force is increased and requires more high speed rebound damping. That's true, but the same thing applies if you add more air to the shock. The rebound stack is really only tuned for a single value, probably a ~160lb rider with the low speed rebound needle set to the middle of it's range. So as soon as you deviate from that it's a moot point anyway.

    - Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.

    Suspension is intended to work within a range of natural frequencies. Get a heavier rider with more pressure vs a lighter rider with less pressure and the frequency that the whole shebang wants to bounce up and down at is pretty much the same.

    Which is how one well set rebound stack can work well for a whole range of riders.

    But yes, making the spring more progressive increases the rebound force a lot more deeper in the stroke. So you get higher return speeds and likely need to run more rebound damping to account for that.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    My fork does not buck with the volume spacers.

    It will be rebounding faster from deeper in the stroke. Unless you've slowed the rebound which means it'll be rebounding slower at the top of the stroke.

    What is the reason you have used volume spacers? Most people run to a more progressive spring to prevent bottom-out. Which was correct back in the elastomer days.

    I did have balance issues trying to get my Mattoc to match the Float R on the back of my test bike. The issue was the Float had a serious platform built into the damper. Which I didn't like.
    I removed the platform, but then the Float didn't have enough compression damping. At that point I just ordered a McLeod. I probably could have found balance after revalving the Float 1 or 2 more times.
  • 03-30-2015
    material guy
    What is the reason you have used volume spacers? Most people run to a more progressive spring to prevent bottom-out. Which was correct back in the elastomer days.

    I used the volume spacers because I had them. They work for me.
    The Mattoc seems to have even better mid stroke support wether to be the case or just my mind playing tricks, I don't know. But for me it feels fantastic.
    Just wondering of others saying that if the spring curve is made right then you do not need volume spacers, so I guess that Fox and Rock Shox engineers are hacks cause they supply volume with there forks?
    OR is it another tuning option that you as an individual can use to adjust the fork to work for your own tastes????
    What may work for me might not work for you. Just a thought.
  • 03-30-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    I used the volume spacers because I had them. They work for me.
    The Mattoc seems to have even better mid stroke support wether to be the case or just my mind playing tricks, I don't know. But for me it feels fantastic.
    Just wondering of others saying that if the spring curve is made right then you do not need volume spacers, so I guess that Fox and Rock Shox engineers are hacks cause they supply volume with there forks?
    OR is it another tuning option that you as an individual can use to adjust the fork to work for your own tastes????
    What may work for me might not work for you. Just a thought.

    Regarding mid-stroke support. For the same bottom-out force an air spring with reduced volume has a softer/weaker mid-stroke.
    If you have the same starting air pressure you'll get a firmer mid-stroke, but a much firmer end-stroke.

    Fox and Rockshox don't have compression dampers in the same league as Manitou.
  • 03-31-2015
    rhyolite
    If you want more mid stroke support, dial in more high speed compression.

    I'm told a preloaded high speed compression stack (which I'm assuming is present in the Mattoc) actually acts more as 'mid speed' compression. It certainly feels this way anyway; my fork has exceptional mid stroke support and I am running close to full high speed with next to no low speed and fairly low pressures.
  • 03-31-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    If you want more mid stroke support, dial in more high speed compression.

    I'm told a preloaded high speed compression stack (which I'm assuming is present in the Mattoc) actually acts more as 'mid speed' compression. It certainly feels this way anyway; my fork has exceptional mid stroke support and I am running close to full high speed with next to no low speed and fairly low pressures.

    Sure you don't have those dials around the other way?

    I've found myself running two different setups.
    The first for normal riding where I've got HSC 2 clicks in and LSC 1 click in.
    The second for slower speed riding (mostly under 30km/h) which had a lot of roots but no real bit impacts to take out. I went with less air pressure and took LSC up to 3 clicks.

    The extra LSC keeps the fork up with the lower air pressure. But the lower air pressure in combination with the same HSC lets it eat roots deeper into the travel.
  • 03-31-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sure you don't have those dials around the other way?

    I don't, but I realise my suspension settings are pretty left field in this company.
  • 03-31-2015
    scar4me
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    If you want more mid stroke support, dial in more high speed compression.

    I'm told a preloaded high speed compression stack (which I'm assuming is present in the Mattoc) actually acts more as 'mid speed' compression. It certainly feels this way anyway; my fork has exceptional mid stroke support and I am running close to full high speed with next to no low speed and fairly low pressures.

    Horses for courses :)
    Everyones got their own preferneces and thats why the adjusters are there

    There are benefits and drawbacks for any setup you choose.
    Your setup above will be excellent for smaller sharp impacts not gobbling your travel, but likely tend to dive when put into a low speed g-out scenario or when pumping terrain.
    This is the scenario where if you like your setup you might be adding volume spacers to reduce the low-speed dive. (which is what Dougal's setup was trygin to avoid with the added LSC)

    The transfer between high and low speed is smooth due to the way the stack works alongside the low speed orifice, and of course pre-loading is preloading the entire stack, so will increase both high and mid (depending on exactly which shimface(s) in the stack it is being applied).
    Although the increase in mid will be lower due to the mid being a combination of the low speed circuit and slight movement in the shimstack.
    The high speed requires much greater movement of the stack which the pre-load has a much bigger impact on.
    Calling it high and low speed adjustment is because that is the main impact of each, the adjustments are not totally isolated.


    Scar
  • 03-31-2015
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    What is the reason you have used volume spacers? Most people run to a more progressive spring to prevent bottom-out. Which was correct back in the elastomer days.

    I used the volume spacers because I had them. They work for me.
    The Mattoc seems to have even better mid stroke support wether to be the case or just my mind playing tricks, I don't know. But for me it feels fantastic.
    Just wondering of others saying that if the spring curve is made right then you do not need volume spacers, so I guess that Fox and Rock Shox engineers are hacks cause they supply volume with there forks?
    OR is it another tuning option that you as an individual can use to adjust the fork to work for your own tastes????
    What may work for me might not work for you. Just a thought.

    Dude, I applaud you. I say do what you need to do to make the fork feel right for you.
  • 03-31-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Fox and Rockshox don't have compression dampers in the same league as Manitou.

    They also don't have hydraulic bottom out, so you MUST have the option to decrease the air spring volume in order to control bottom-out. MRP has a novel implementation of that concept on their Stage fork (Ramp Control).

    Regarding being happy with a fork with tokens, or with atypical damping adjustment:
    Of course, that's perfectly fine. It's your fork and your bike. Individual preferences and riding style dictate your setup. There are some pro bikes with unusual setups, compared to the majority of the competitors, yet those riders go out and win.


    However if you haven't tried removing the tokens and using the HBO instead, you may be doing yourself a disservice.
  • 03-31-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post


    However if you haven't tried removing the tokens and using the HBO instead, you may be doing yourself a disservice.

    I was riding the Mattoc for > than 6 months before trying out the volume spacers. Yes I played around with the HBO and as you know it only works for the last inch or so.
    Like I keep saying, I tried it out for kicks because I could, and as it turned out I liked it.
  • 03-31-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by djjohnr View Post
    What frame/shock combo are you running? I have a Yeti SB75 with a Float CTD. The TPC+ damper in the Mattoc is a traditional speed sensitive shimmed damper, while the Float CTD uses a position sensitive Boost Valve. A high velocity impact that would be handled immediately by the high speed compression circuit in the Mattoc wont reach the same damping resistance until later in the travel in the Float CTD due to it being a position sensitive damper rather then a speed sensitive damper. My preferred solution to the imbalance is to run a shock using a traditional shimmed setup.

    john, I missed this reply and the questions you were asking me. sorry about that!

    I ride a Santa Cruz Blur TR. 125mm rear travel, 140mm fork now. (I rode my Mattoc at 160mm for about 20 hours, maybe 30. It actually turned and climbed fine, but balancing the front and rear suspension was impossible.)

    I've got a Float CTD Trail Adjust shock with the stock damper, and I just put a Vorsprung Corset air can on it. I'm pretty happy with it now but had been considering a Monarch RT3. The Corset basically is a debonair can for Fox shocks, and in 2016 Fox will have their own.

    I also forgot to mention that so I've only been able to ride my Mattoc on slower technical trails, and faster but smoother XC trails. The fast chunky stuff is 1.5 - 2 hrs away but I'll be going there in April and May. It could be that my setup is too soft for a rough, fast trail and I'll find out.
  • 04-05-2015
    rhyolite
    Can someone here (Dougal?) explain to me how the MC2 damper works?

    From what I've read, when the damper oil is changed, it gets filled all the way to the top of the leg. So no air gap. Does this mean the foam unit is the compensation mechanism, and does it have air chambers or something internally that allow it to deform and take up the volume displaced by the shaft?
  • 04-05-2015
    IntenseMack10
    And to piggyback into this, if anyone has done a simple disassemble of the damper and oil change do you have info & pics?

    Doing the oil change in the dorado is super easy because it's open bath and easy to disassemble but the Mattoc is a Little more involved, yeah? It would be nice to have a bit of a guide before I tear into it myself.
  • 04-06-2015
    scar4me
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Can someone here (Dougal?) explain to me how the MC2 damper works?

    From what I've read, when the damper oil is changed, it gets filled all the way to the top of the leg. So no air gap. Does this mean the foam unit is the compensation mechanism, and does it have air chambers or something internally that allow it to deform and take up the volume displaced by the shaft?

    Exactly that.
    closed damper, but unpressurized due to the closed cell compensator.
    About as simple as it gets to service/oil change.
    Take out the top of the damper, turn upsidedown, cycle rebound shaft to clear oil from the rebound.
    Then turn upright, fill up, cycle the rebound till no bubbles, then top up.
    Get hold of manitou Europe to confirm Oil height though.


    Scar
  • 04-06-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    Exactly that.
    closed damper, but unpressurized due to the closed cell compensator.
    About as simple as it gets to service/oil change.
    Take out the top of the damper, turn upsidedown, cycle rebound shaft to clear oil from the rebound.
    Then turn upright, fill up, cycle the rebound till no bubbles, then top up.
    Get hold of manitou Europe to confirm Oil height though.


    Scar

    Manitou tec told me the oil height is 77mm from top of crown after all the air is bled out.
  • 04-06-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    Manitou tec told me the oil height is 77mm from top of crown after all the air is bled out.

    Well that's pretty much all we were missing. I have asked for official confirmation too.

    Oil is 5wt Motorex 77mm down.
    Bushing lube is Semi-bath 15cc per side (from the travel change manual).
    Air chamber lube is semi-bath and 7cc in the top of the air leg.

    I'll see if I get time to service mine this week.
  • 04-06-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by scar4me View Post
    Exactly that.
    closed damper, but unpressurized due to the closed cell compensator.
    About as simple as it gets to service/oil change.
    Take out the top of the damper, turn upsidedown, cycle rebound shaft to clear oil from the rebound.
    Then turn upright, fill up, cycle the rebound till no bubbles, then top up.
    Get hold of manitou Europe to confirm Oil height though.


    Scar

    Thanks for the info
  • 04-06-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Well that's pretty much all we were missing. I have asked for official confirmation too.

    Oil is 5wt Motorex 77mm down.
    Bushing lube is Semi-bath 15cc per side (from the travel change manual).
    Air chamber lube is semi-bath and 7cc in the top of the air leg.

    I'll see if I get time to service mine this week.

    Don't use 7cc of oil in the air spring, this is where the issue of the travel dropping comes from. The oil migrates into the neg air chamber. Use suspension grease with only 2cc of oil or so in the air side, if any oil at all. I only use slickhoney with no oil in the air spring now cause of my travel dropping 10-15mm each week with using oil in the air spring.
    From manitou tech.
  • 04-06-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    Don't use 7cc of oil in the air spring, this is where the issue of the travel dropping comes from. The oil migrates into the neg air chamber. Use suspension grease with only 2cc of oil or so in the air side, if any oil at all. I only use slickhoney with no oil in the air spring now cause of my travel dropping 10-15mm each week with using oil in the air spring.
    From manitou tech.

    I will see how much oil I have in the negative side when I get it apart. I much prefer using oil rather than grease to lubricate, but I agree that too much can be a problem.
  • 04-06-2015
    rhyolite
    I found roughly equal amounts of oil in the pos and neg chambers, and that was only after something like 3 rides on the fork.

    Agree with material guy - since removing oil from the air spring (and adjusting the poppet) my fork has had a more consistent feel and no more travel loss problems.

    What's the problem with thin grease, more stiction than oil?
  • 04-06-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    What's the problem with thin grease, more stiction than oil?

    Grease spreads away from the seals, then the seal wears and air leaks. It's not a huge problem, just grease requires more maintenance.
  • 04-06-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Grease spreads away from the seals, then the seal wears and air leaks. It's not a huge problem, just grease requires more maintenance.

    Good to know.
  • 04-07-2015
    mykel
    Mattoc Pro ordered for my Knolly Endorphin build.
    Thank-you all.
    Will have to do a little teardown when i receive it to check it over. SOP
  • 04-07-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    Don't use 7cc of oil in the air spring, this is where the issue of the travel dropping comes from. The oil migrates into the neg air chamber. Use suspension grease with only 2cc of oil or so in the air side, if any oil at all. I only use slickhoney with no oil in the air spring now cause of my travel dropping 10-15mm each week with using oil in the air spring.
    From manitou tech.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    I found roughly equal amounts of oil in the pos and neg chambers, and that was only after something like 3 rides on the fork.

    Agree with material guy - since removing oil from the air spring (and adjusting the poppet) my fork has had a more consistent feel and no more travel loss problems.

    What's the problem with thin grease, more stiction than oil?

    Very interesting.

    I ran a 26" Mattoc at 160mm on a Blur TR for about 40-50 hours before lowering the travel. (This bike normally uses a 130-140mm Fox 34.) I had no problems with loss of travel.

    When I tore it down to install the travel spacers, it seemed as if the fork had roughly the right amount of semi-bath in the legs and on top of the air piston, but I didn't collect and measure it.

    I did the documented Manitou service including 7ml semi-bath oil on top of the air piston. I used their M-prep grease on the air piston and the Motorex semi-bath oil. No problems so far with another 20 hours on 140mm travel.

    I'm curious - were you guys also losing air pressure in the fork? It seems to me that if oil is migrating past the air piston seal, surely air would as well.
  • 04-07-2015
    ColinL
    Also:

    isn't the air spring volume (and thus spring rate) considerably different if you have nothing at all on top of the air piston?
  • 04-07-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Very interesting.

    I ran a 26" Mattoc at 160mm on a Blur TR for about 40-50 hours before lowering the travel. (This bike normally uses a 130-140mm Fox 34.) I had no problems with loss of travel.

    When I tore it down to install the travel spacers, it seemed as if the fork had roughly the right amount of semi-bath in the legs and on top of the air piston, but I didn't collect and measure it.

    I did the documented Manitou service including 7ml semi-bath oil on top of the air piston. I used their M-prep grease on the air piston and the Motorex semi-bath oil. No problems so far with another 20 hours on 140mm travel.

    I'm curious - were you guys also losing air pressure in the fork? It seems to me that if oil is migrating past the air piston seal, surely air would as well.

    There was no loss in air pressure, air from the pos chamber would get into the neg chamber to cause the fork to loose travel from the extra air volume in the neg chamber.
    Before adding the grease and less oil I would have to hook up the shock pump, stand on the bars and pull up on the front wheel to return full travel at least once or twice a week.
  • 04-07-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    There was no loss in air pressure, air from the pos chamber would get into the neg chamber to cause the fork to loose travel from the extra air volume in the neg chamber.
    Before adding the grease and less oil I would have to hook up the shock pump, stand on the bars and pull up on the front wheel to return full travel at least once or twice a week.

    So, yes, both air and oil was escaping from on top of your piston and migrating below it to the negative air side.

    I'm really having trouble understanding the cause and effect here. I don't think it would be the oil on top of the piston. It's the sealing of the piston-- either the seals were bad or they were not greased, which caused your air and oil to leak down. Did you replace the air piston seals?

    Now that your fork is holding air, do you think there is any reason why it wouldn't also hold oil on top of the piston?
  • 04-07-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    So, yes, both air and oil was escaping from on top of your piston and migrating below it to the negative air side.

    I'm really having trouble understanding the cause and effect here. I don't think it would be the oil on top of the piston. It's the sealing of the piston-- either the seals were bad or they were not greased, which caused your air and oil to leak down. Did you replace the air piston seals?

    Now that your fork is holding air, do you think there is any reason why it wouldn't also hold oil on top of the piston?

    I did not replace any seals. As to why the air traveled with the oil before and not now with almost no oil????
    Not a clue as to why, just know it worked...Oil too thin?...Grease thicker?...Use heavier oil?
  • 04-07-2015
    djjohnr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I've got a Float CTD Trail Adjust shock with the stock damper

    That's likely why you have an imbalance. Boost Valve shocks are notorious for blowing through their travel until they hit the end travel compression damping provided by the valve. If you convert it/replace it with a speed sensitive shock you can better match the Mattoc.
  • 04-07-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    I did not replace any seals. As to why the air traveled with the oil before and not now with almost no oil????
    Not a clue as to why, just know it worked...Oil too thin?...Grease thicker?...Use heavier oil?

    I think that you have done a proper job of servicing your fork and that it is why it is sealing now.

    The simplest explanation for why it was leaking originally, in my opinion, is a poor or non-existent application of grease on the piston seal when it was assembled.
  • 04-08-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Well that's pretty much all we were missing. I have asked for official confirmation too.

    Oil is 5wt Motorex 77mm down.
    Bushing lube is Semi-bath 15cc per side (from the travel change manual).
    Air chamber lube is semi-bath and 7cc in the top of the air leg.

    I'll see if I get time to service mine this week.

    Do you know the [email protected] of the Motorex 5W Oil?

    Pete Verdone's oil chart says 22.6, I got a Motul 7.5W which is 24.0 but now the fork seems worse with trail chatter, not sure if it's the different setup (switched from 140 to 150 and still working on pressure and compressions/rebound) or if the difference in viscosity between Motorex and Motul is more than expected.

    By the way, when I opened the fork a couple of months ago all the oil in the air chamber migrated in the lowers, there was just a small amount in the negative chamber. It didn't suffered any travel drop, though.
  • 04-08-2015
    kand
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.

    Fox haven't got away with it. They have lost market share here in the antipodes.
  • 04-08-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caste View Post
    Do you know the [email protected] of the Motorex 5W Oil?

    Pete Verdone's oil chart says 22.6, I got a Motul 7.5W which is 24.0 but now the fork seems worse with trail chatter, not sure if it's the different setup (switched from 140 to 150 and still working on pressure and compressions/rebound) or if the difference in viscosity between Motorex and Motul is more than expected.

    I don't have official Cst data for the Motorex. I really should ask since I've got 420 litres of the stuff coming.
    What my guys do is run comparative tests between all the fork oils for reference purposes. We haven't calibrated or converted back to Cst. I haven't yet had Motul oil to compare.

    Motorex 5wt is a shade thicker than the stuff I drained from a 2011 RS Sektor, a shade thicker than the older Maxima 5wt.

    Motorex 7.5wt is almost bang on Fox 10wt.

    Regarding oil heights.
    Manitou have confirmed 77mm for the Pro. But 80mm for the Expert.
  • 04-08-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I don't have official Cst data for the Motorex. I really should ask since I've got 420 litres of the stuff coming.
    What my guys do is run comparative tests between all the fork oils for reference purposes. We haven't calibrated or converted back to Cst. I haven't yet had Motul oil to compare.

    Motorex 5wt is a shade thicker than the stuff I drained from a 2011 RS Sektor, a shade thicker than the older Maxima 5wt.

    Motorex 7.5wt is almost bang on Fox 10wt.

    Regarding oil heights.
    Manitou have confirmed 77mm for the Pro. But 80mm for the Expert.

    Ok thanks, I'll wait a bit and eventually get the Motorex if it will still not feel right.
  • 04-08-2015
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caste View Post
    Do you know the [email protected] of the Motorex 5W Oil?

    Pete Verdone's oil chart says 22.6, I got a Motul 7.5W which is 24.0 but now the fork seems worse with trail chatter, not sure if it's the different setup (switched from 140 to 150 and still working on pressure and compressions/rebound) or if the difference in viscosity between Motorex and Motul is more than expected.

    By the way, when I opened the fork a couple of months ago all the oil in the air chamber migrated in the lowers, there was just a small amount in the negative chamber. It didn't suffered any travel drop, though.

    You know, that Pete Verdone site has been up for years - at least 10 but maybe more. I wonder how accurate it now is and how much oils have changed over the years.
  • 04-08-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    You know, that Pete Verdone site has been up for years - at least 10 but maybe more. I wonder how accurate it now is and how much oils have changed over the years.

    I doubt the Motorex semi-bath oil has changed since it's actually 5w40 motor oil.

    However I agree about the age & content of Peter's site Suspension Fluid - Pvdwiki

    It says this about the Manitou semi-bath oil:
    "Manitou forks use, for lubrication, Motorex Semi-Bath Fork Oil, 5W40 from Motorex of Switzerland. This is actually Motorex Motor Oil Power Synt 4T SAE 5W40, a synthetic motor oil. This oil is rated at 90.9 [email protected]/14.6 [email protected]/VI 169. This is some serious pancake syrup. This oil is not widely available, but can be ordered at most motorcycle dealers through K&L Supply Co. (PN# 35-3911). Similar oils do not really exist as suspension oils."

    And then it goes on to list 3 oils that are not that close. Yet in his table above, there are oils closer to it than the ones he lists - Torco Synthetic RTF and Silkolene Pro RSF 15wt.

    I found the Motorex semi-bath oil quite easily online through various sources. I think I actually bought it from Amazon but it is out there, no problem.
  • 04-08-2015
    croakies
    That's really close to fox 20wt gold [email protected] I'm using that now in my mattoc with good results. Need to see if damper and/or air spring will ingest the splash oil like it did on my revelation when using the fox gold.
  • 04-08-2015
    caste
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I doubt the Motorex semi-bath oil has changed since it's actually 5w40 motor oil.

    However I agree about the age & content of Peter's site Suspension Fluid - Pvdwiki

    It says this about the Manitou semi-bath oil:
    "Manitou forks use, for lubrication, Motorex Semi-Bath Fork Oil, 5W40 from Motorex of Switzerland. This is actually Motorex Motor Oil Power Synt 4T SAE 5W40, a synthetic motor oil. This oil is rated at 90.9 [email protected]/14.6 [email protected]/VI 169. This is some serious pancake syrup. This oil is not widely available, but can be ordered at most motorcycle dealers through K&L Supply Co. (PN# 35-3911). Similar oils do not really exist as suspension oils."

    And then it goes on to list 3 oils that are not that close. Yet in his table above, there are oils closer to it than the ones he lists - Torco Synthetic RTF and Silkolene Pro RSF 15wt.

    I found the Motorex semi-bath oil quite easily online through various sources. I think I actually bought it from Amazon but it is out there, no problem.

    I was actually talking about damper oil. I was not 100% sure about actual viscosity because I knew that the oil chart is old and Motorex gives no information. It shouldn't have changed much, but who knows.. Motul, for example, went from 22.3 to 24 (which is nothing).

    For lowers oil is less crucial, I could get Motorex Semi-Bath but I chose Supergliss 100k for lowers and Fox Blue for air spring.
  • 04-08-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by caste View Post
    I was actually talking about damper oil. I was not 100% sure about actual viscosity because I knew that the oil chart is old and Motorex gives no information. It shouldn't have changed much, but who knows.. Motul, for example, went from 22.3 to 24 (which is nothing).

    For lowers oil is less crucial, I could get Motorex Semi-Bath but I chose Supergliss 100k for lowers and Fox Blue for air spring.

    OOoohh.

    I'm going for another cup of coffee now. That makes perfect sense.
  • 04-08-2015
    ktm520
    I've been using Maximum RSF 7w as a substitute for Motorex 5w in abs+ forks with good results.

    As for the air/oil leaking past the piston, oil will most definitely migrate past the seal unless its a cup style (Fox for example uses cup seal as a scraper on the neg side of the air piston). Any rounded lip seal with light preload used in a dynamic application (pretty much any fork/shock air piston) will allow oil to migrate but not air. Fox/RS air shocks are a perfect example that you can literally see the oil migration with use. It has to do with the ability of the seal to scrape the oil film off the cylinder wall as is moves.
  • 04-08-2015
    Cary
    So have the Pro up and running on my Son's 5 spot. I ended up pulling it apart and dropping the travel to 150mm in order to maintain the geometry and keep the bar height low enough (he is 5'2" and 120 pounds). The travel change is easy following the instructions, the hardest part is chasing the air spring back up with a 4mm allen while trying to get it screwed back into the lower. I have a pretty thin 8mm 1/4" deep well, and even that wasn't thin enough. For the record, the Park FR-5 works fine for removing the lower. Finally, I used Redline 5w-40 in the lowers and air chamber, it has worked well for other forks as a bath oil and is sitting on my bench.

    For my son, we ended up with the settings pretty much all out:

    Air Pressure- 44psi (23% sag)
    Rebound- 8 (or what we would normally call one click from full open)
    High Speed and Low Speed- 5 and 4 (or full open to the rest of the world)
    HBO- 5 (Minimum)

    In comparison to his 2012 Fox 32 140 Fit, it supports him much better in the travel (he was running trail 1 on the compression), he says it is much plusher, and he has not blown through the bottom out, showing about 20mm of remaining travel on his first few rides. By comparison, even at 20% sag on the Fox, he was regularly bottoming it hard. He does ride hard for his age and has a Vanilla 180 on his DH bike and regularly gets full travel on it with the soft spring which he is at the lower weight limit for.

    He had a chance to demo a Giant Reign Advanced 1 this weekend on the same trails he normally rides (Joaquin Miller (specifically Cinderella) for those in Northern California) and compare the Pike to the Mattoc. He said the Pike felt a little different than the Mattoc, but couldn't describe the difference, except they both felt good and way better than the Fox. Now time to get the rear shock up to par, off to Avalanche for his RP23.
  • 04-08-2015
    mykel
    Another resource for Oil viscosity

    https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/
  • 04-09-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Regarding oil heights.
    Manitou have confirmed 77mm for the Pro. But 80mm for the Expert.

    Great, so is the idea with this when you reinstall the damper the oil will come right to the top of the leg?

    Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.

    I'm sure it's useful on the real big and steep stuff but I barely ride that and would just like a fork that can use its full travel range.
  • 04-09-2015
    aerius
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.

    IMO it's not important whether a fork uses that last 1-2cm of travel as long as everything else works well. The only times I use up all my suspension travel are 1)full out race runs, 2)I've botched something and the fork just saved my butt from a crash, and 3)airing out sizable drops to a flat landing.
  • 04-09-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Great, so is the idea with this when you reinstall the damper the oil will come right to the top of the leg?

    Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.

    I'm sure it's useful on the real big and steep stuff but I barely ride that and would just like a fork that can use its full travel range.

    Just to confirm; you are measuring the "O" ring from the oil seal and not going by the "O" ring to crown height..right?
    When I first got my fork I could not get it to use all the travel.
    I ended up taking out 5-10cc of oil, this allowed me to use all the travel that I paid for.
    I am not the only one who has had thhis issue.
  • 04-09-2015
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    So have the Pro up and running on my Son's 5 spot. I ended up pulling it apart and dropping the travel to 150mm in order to maintain the geometry and keep the bar height low enough (he is 5'2" and 120 pounds). The travel change is easy following the instructions, the hardest part is chasing the air spring back up with a 4mm allen while trying to get it screwed back into the lower. I have a pretty thin 8mm 1/4" deep well, and even that wasn't thin enough.

    Cary, thanks for the report. So far, my 8 year-old is only asking for clipless pedals. A few years from now when he figures out my suspension is much better than his, that'll be an expensive day. :D

    I had the same problem with the 8mm thin-walled socket.
  • 04-09-2015
    mattsavage
    I ground my 8mm socket down on a cheap Harbor Freight grinding wheel... Works great.
  • 04-09-2015
    Cary
    3 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Cary, thanks for the report. So far, my 8 year-old is only asking for clipless pedals. A few years from now when he figures out my suspension is much better than his, that'll be an expensive day. :D

    I had the same problem with the 8mm thin-walled socket.

    I remember when my son was 8. A BMX bike and a 24" Specialized Hardtail that I bought used and fixed up. Then he hit 9 and discovered downhilling on Youtube. Then he discovered the dirt jumps. So now he has three bikes and keeps asking me when I am going to buy a new one, since my 5 Spot is 7 years old (2008). I tell him when he quits growing. I just did a frame swap for his trail bike because he outgrew it old one (made it slightly over 2 years, growing 6" in that time), sold his hardtail and BMX bikes and built up a jump bike for his birthday, and while his downhill bike will get him through the season, that will be outgrown by then also. His fleet:Attachment 979894Attachment 979895Attachment 979896
  • 04-09-2015
    rhyolite
    Thanks for the replies guys. Fair point aerius. However, I don't want to put up with the climbing disadvantages of high bars and a slacker head angle just for the benefit of 1-2cm more travel that's used only once a year. Even if it saves my ass haha.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by material guy View Post
    Just to confirm; you are measuring the "O" ring from the oil seal and not going by the "O" ring to crown height..right?
    When I first got my fork I could not get it to use all the travel.
    I ended up taking out 5-10cc of oil, this allowed me to use all the travel that I paid for.
    I am not the only one who has had thhis issue.

    Yep, measuring from top of wiper to o-ring.

    Sooo, if introducing an air pocket into a damper that (I'm assuming) is not designed to have one helps people use travel, what does this say about the damper?

    To me (and this is pure speculation), it says the forks are experiencing significant ramp up from the damper. Before I even knew about the practice of reducing the oil level, a friend of mine mentioned he thought the foam unit looked quite small, and if by damper design it is required to take up all of the volume displacement, it couldn't relaly have much 'air/volume to spare' so to speak. As I understand it, this could lead to damper ramp up. Thoughts?
  • 04-10-2015
    ColinL
    Cary - way cool. No DH opportunities here in Kansas, but I do go to Colorado (Vail & Keystone) once a year for a hiking and biking vacation. Currently my son is just having fun on his BMX bike but he wants to race. Not sure how he'll be able to do that while playing competitive soccer... but I digress. Good on you to support your son's 2-wheeled adventures!

    RE: damper filled to the top

    Maybe I'm viewing this too simplistically, but doesn't the damper have to be filled completely with oil for the hydraulic bottom-out to function? It is not in the air spring, it's in the damper.
  • 04-10-2015
    material guy
    I had taked 5cc of oil out from the damper side to be able to achieve full travel.
    5cc is not very much, if the oil height was too high from the start there would not be enough room for the oil to displace to. I never cheked the height at the time cause I had no idea of what the propper height was.
    The HBO will still be filled with oil to work even if the oil height was a LITTLE BIT low.
  • 04-10-2015
    rhyolite
    You don't understand what I'm saying.

    In a damper like an old Rockshox Motion Control unit, it probably wouldn't matter dropping the oil level (and introducing more air). However, in a sealed damper (like Manitou), air and oil and are meant to be kept separate.

    What you've done is introduce a pocket of air where it's not designed to be. Maybe not the end of the world. What I'm interested in is what this actually means is going on behind the scenes.

    If people are struggling to use travel and introducing more air into the damper system helps, this says to me there is progression coming from the damper. I.e. in its proper state from factory (sealed, oil to the top of the leg), the closed cell foam unit isn't big enough/capable enough to take up the volume displaced without leading to ramp up/progression.

    I want to be wrong about this so hoping someone can explain why.
  • 04-10-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Great, so is the idea with this when you reinstall the damper the oil will come right to the top of the leg?

    Has anyone toyed with the idea of removing the HBO, or know if it is possible? I can't get the fork to use full travel when I'm out riding, even on downhill tracks. I'm already running very low pressure for my weight (40psi) and what I'm thinking is the HBO is affecting my ability to use that last 1-2cm.

    I'm sure it's useful on the real big and steep stuff but I barely ride that and would just like a fork that can use its full travel range.

    If you drop all the air pressure, can you compress the fork to the bumpers relatively easily?
  • 04-10-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    You don't understand what I'm saying.

    In a damper like an old Rockshox Motion Control unit, it probably wouldn't matter dropping the oil level (and introducing more air). However, in a sealed damper (like Manitou), air and oil and are meant to be kept separate.

    What you've done is introduce a pocket of air where it's not designed to be. Maybe not the end of the world. What I'm interested in is what this actually means is going on behind the scenes.

    If people are struggling to use travel and introducing more air into the damper system helps, this says to me there is progression coming from the damper. I.e. in its proper state from factory (sealed, oil to the top of the leg), the closed cell foam unit isn't big enough/capable enough to take up the volume displaced without leading to ramp up/progression.

    I want to be wrong about this so hoping someone can explain why.

    I do not think that you understand what I was trying to say.
    What I was saying is that if the oil volume was too high to begin with you will have hydrolock. Also with the foam the air will or should make its way to the top (above the foam) keeping the air out of the oil side of things if there is any extra air space.
  • 04-10-2015
    rhyolite
    I guess what I'm not understanding is how you could have excessive oil in this system. Manitou recommend filling the oil to 77mm below the top of the leg. As I understand it, once all the damper parts are inserted this pushes the oil to the very top of the leg. I.e. you couldn't get anymore oil in there even if you tried. Please correct me if I'm wrong
  • 04-10-2015
    rhyolite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you drop all the air pressure, can you compress the fork to the bumpers relatively easily?

    I can't no. With all the air out, by hand I can only move the fork to about 2-3cm short of full travel before encountering strong resistance. If I ride it off a gutter or ledge without air I can get it to 0.5cm short of full travel (probably bottom anyway).
  • 04-10-2015
    material guy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    I guess what I'm not understanding is how you could have excessive oil in this system. Manitou recommend filling the oil to 77mm below the top of the leg. As I understand it, once all the damper parts are inserted this pushes the oil to the very top of the leg. I.e. you couldn't get anymore oil in there even if you tried. Please correct me if I'm wrong

    When I did an oil change of the damper, filled the oil to 77mm from the top and inserted the HBO, compression damper into the leg there was still some air in the system above the foam compensater.
    If oil is added to the point that there is no air left the foam might not be enough to allow for the displaced oil. This is all that I am trying to say but going the long way around it I guess.

    I wish that a Manitou tech could look at this forum and help out with issues some of us have and to correct us if we are wrong in our thinking like the Marz tech does on an other thread in this forum.
  • 04-11-2015
    rhyolite
    Interesting. Yes would be helpful. I've emailed them with a few questions, not sure if it'll reach its intended target though. Is everyone just using the general hayes components contact form?
  • 04-12-2015
    two-one
    Some air in the damper cartridge wouldnt be any problem, it'll stay put above the foam compensators. Even without the foam compensators, most users wouldn't really notice a difference anyway :)
  • 04-13-2015
    Dougal
    The TPC/TPC+/ABS+ and MC2 dampers all need an air gap.

    The foam is to allow a smaller air gap
  • 04-13-2015
    mattsavage
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    I can't no. With all the air out, by hand I can only move the fork to about 2-3cm short of full travel before encountering strong resistance. If I ride it off a gutter or ledge without air I can get it to 0.5cm short of full travel (probably bottom anyway).

    THat sounds normal...
  • 04-13-2015
    rhyolite
    If that's the case, yep fair enough guys. What I was getting at is if it allows air and oil to mix (=potential aeration of the oil) this would obviously be inferior to other proper sealed damper designs which keep them totally separate (at least initially before leakage occurs).

    Can you explain why that's normal Matt? I'm sure other air forks I own/have owned have allowed me to hit the bottom out bumpers pretty easily by hand
  • 04-13-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    If that's the case, yep fair enough guys. What I was getting at is if it allows air and oil to mix (=potential aeration of the oil) this would obviously be inferior to other proper sealed damper designs which keep them totally separate (at least initially before leakage occurs).

    Can you explain why that's normal Matt? I'm sure other air forks I own/have owned have allowed me to hit the bottom out bumpers pretty easily by hand

    These dampers are self-bleeding. The air works its way up to the top and out of the oil. They only aerate if there is insufficient oil inside.

    Once setup with the correct oil level, they often don't need touched for 10 years. I get TPC forks that old and older coming in for service with clean and clear oil still in the damper.

    As for your fork not compressing all the way by hand. I'll check mine as soon as I've cleared the decks. Boss's forks are lowest priority.

    For comparison, I let the air out of a Pike RC and it took ~50kg force to fully compress the fork. Obviously they still build some pressure in the air spring when compressed if they were vented at full extension.

    Compare that to major brands rear shocks with sealed dampers which suck themselves full of air in a few months. Self bleeding is better.
  • 04-13-2015
    Dougal
    Okay lads. I have my Mattoc Pro apart and on the bench. Ask me anything.

    This one has had almost 6 months occasional use and has been set at 160mm/26" for the entire time. It has had no problems and everything inside looks perfect.
    It's a very cleverly and well designed fork. Very easy to work on.

    I did find 11cc of oil inside the air spring lower chamber and this is a little cleaner/clearer than the semi-bath oil so it clearly had 11cc somewhere in the air spring from the beginning.

    I lost just enough bath oil and damper oil that I couldn't get measurements to the cc or mm of height.

    Travel wise, when set to 160mm the bottomout bumper (single on the air side) engages at ~154mm of compression. I was measuring ~150mm of travel using this bumper as intended which suggests I wasn't quite at full extension.

    I will reassemble tomorrow so I have time to answer any questions.
  • 04-14-2015
    rhyolite
    Awesome. If you get the chance;

    1) You measured about 154mm of travel to the bumper in the 160mm setting. What do you think the actual effective travel of the fork is? How thick is the bottom out bumper, and is it soft/reasonably compressible? Or is that all irrelevant because the HBO won't allow a hard bottom out that would compress the bumper and get more travel?

    2) With the HBO adjuster all the way out, can you tell if the HBO system is still being engaged, or if its effect is basically zero? Also, does the HBO look like it could be non permanently removed/disabled if someone was that way inclined?

    3) Assuming you go with the Manitou-recommended oil level, with the fork back together and zero pressure in the air spring, can you compress the fork to the bumpers easily by hand? If not, why would this be?
  • 04-14-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    Awesome. If you get the chance;

    1) You measured about 154mm of travel to the bumper in the 160mm setting. What do you think the actual effective travel of the fork is? How thick is the bottom out bumper, and is it soft/reasonably compressible? Or is that all irrelevant because the HBO won't allow a hard bottom out that would compress the bumper and get more travel?

    This appears to be the same bumper I'm running in my Nixon and Travis forks. Yes I would expect to get the last 6mm out of them on a decent hit. But it's not going to be normal riding. It's usually the fork saving you from yourself at that point.
    To get full travel you are overwhelming both your normal spring force and your normal damping force and still hitting hard.

    I can get a hard bottomout with my HBO set open. I've been riding with it set so I use the B/O bumper but can't really feel them engaging.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    2) With the HBO adjuster all the way out, can you tell if the HBO system is still being engaged, or if its effect is basically zero? Also, does the HBO look like it could be non permanently removed/disabled if someone was that way inclined?

    I have been shown curves from HBO operation, but not complete data, which shows it always has some effect. Personally while riding HBO right open isn't enough effect, I run it halfway. So I would never need less.

    But if you wanted to remove it, yes it can be done. Simply replace the HBO cone on the compression assembly with a nut.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    3) Assuming you go with the Manitou-recommended oil level, with the fork back together and zero pressure in the air spring, can you compress the fork to the bumpers easily by hand? If not, why would this be?

    With no oil in the fork and air pressure set to zero at full extension, I'm at ~50kg force to compress the fork to about the last cm. Looks like decent ramp up still exists in the air-spring and air trapped in the lowers.

    This is with 4cc of oil in the air chamber and 17cc of oil in each lower leg.
  • 04-14-2015
    Dougal
    I should also say.
    The compression damping assembly on these is an engineering masterpiece. It's an amazing piece to fit HSC, LSC and HBO and all the required oil circuits in such a confined space.

    Don't attempt to pull it apart unless you've got a completely contained work area and a spare day.
  • 04-14-2015
    croakies
    Pictures! So we don't have to 😁
  • 04-14-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Pictures! So we don't have to 😁

    Sorry, no time for decent pictures. But they wouldn't do it justice anyway. You'd need a cut-away view to show all the different oil flows and adjuster functions.
  • 04-14-2015
    rhyolite
    1 Attachment(s)
    Thanks for the answers Dougal.

    Today has been a good day. Now we've got an actual oil height from Manitou, I decided to go and check mine. It was about 60mm from the top of the leg, so too high. I removed about 7.5ml which took it down to 77mm.

    Wow, what a difference. 40psi is now way too soft. With all the air out of the spring I can now easily get them to the bottom out bumpers by hand. Riding them down my driveway I can get them to ~159mm in the 160mm setting. So they aren't short on travel either.

    Attachment 981356

    Thanks for the help guys. I probably should have just removed some oil as suggested rather the debate the workings of the damper. However the point still stands that Manitou should have got this (and the other things) right from factory. Anyway, off to ride my bike.
  • 04-14-2015
    rhyolite
    One last question - if we change the travel, do we need to revise the damper oil level?
  • 04-14-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rhys.l View Post
    One last question - if we change the travel, do we need to revise the damper oil level?

    I'd say no. The way this damper is designed the rebound shaft is tiny and the compression assembly uses the full stanchion ID so oil height change from travel adjust will be very minor.

    Good to hear you got your oil levels sorted.

    One other point. This time regarding the air valve protrusion.
    My fork measures 0.25mm depressed and 1.35mm extended. It's working as it should with my shock pumps.
  • 04-14-2015
    IntenseMack10
    Hey Dougal,

    Just want to clarify: youre saying full disassembly of the compression damper unit is what is difficult / time consuming? But cracking open the damper for basic service oil & oil change and height check is relatively simple?

    I am technically inclined and service my Dorado all the time, however for me this never involves removing the compression or rebound damper units, just full disassembly of the air spring and seperating the stanchion from the outer on the damper side to change oil.

    I've also already pulled the lowers on my mattoc once to change the splash bath and grease the seals. I was having the same travel issue as ryhs and sent it in. They said some of the slash bath had made its way into the damper so hydrolocking was limiting my travel. I wonder though if it was actually a bit overfilled from the factory.

    Also, to all: I have it on good authority that Manitou will be posting a service video this week for the Mattoc covering basic servicing. So that will be helpful.
  • 04-14-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IntenseMack10 View Post
    Hey Dougal,

    Just want to clarify: youre saying full disassembly of the compression damper unit is what is difficult / time consuming? But cracking open the damper for basic service oil & oil change and height check is relatively simple?

    I am technically inclined and service my Dorado all the time, however for me this never involves removing the compression or rebound damper units, just full disassembly of the air spring and seperating the stanchion from the outer on the damper side to change oil.

    I've also already pulled the lowers on my mattoc once to change the splash bath and grease the seals. I was having the same travel issue as ryhs and sent it in. They said some of the slash bath had made its way into the damper so hydrolocking was limiting my travel. I wonder though if it was actually a bit overfilled from the factory.

    Also, to all: I have it on good authority that Manitou will be posting a service video this week for the Mattoc covering basic servicing. So that will be helpful.

    Yes that's correct. The compression assembly (with knobs removed) comes out in one piece for service. But it's probably 25 individual pieces which don't need taken apart.

    I recommend checking the oil levels on all new forks if you suspect anything is amiss. A little bit extra isn't the end of the world but some other brands have shipped forks with insufficient/no bath oil!
  • 04-16-2015
    bikefiend
    Hi guys,
    long time manitou user so funny in some ways to see Dougal here still fighting the good fight, I havent had one since Sherman! Anyway I installed a mattoc last week. I can't say I fully understand it yet but I'm willing to give it some time. I find the compression circuit gives me little feel of the front end, so I'm working on the settings.

    One thing, may I please confirm the 77mm is with the fork extended or compressed. It's probably apparent once cracked open but I like having an expectation of what I should be seeing once I get there.

    I've already done a basic air side disassembly upon receipt of it, incl extenting the poppet valve and removing some air chamber oil, but didnt get to the damper side.

    2ndly, at the pressures I run ~65psi, it feels as if over the course of a few mins riding the feel of the fork changes, and this is supported by the fact that when I reconnect the shock pump the fork extends by 3-4mm. You can see it visibly, measure and feel the internals jerking when the pump connects. Any ideas? Is this another poppet valve adjustment?
  • 04-16-2015
    Dougal
    Yeah it's been a while here. I've been riding Manitou forks for over 20 years now!

    The manitou damper oil heights are always with the fork fully extended. The low speed comrpession (red knob) is the one for providing trail feel.

    It does sound like your poppet valve is wound out too far. It might be getting pushed by the air-cap.
    Keep in mind these move between pressure and no pressure. So setting the protrusion isn't always straight-forward.
  • 04-16-2015
    bikefiend
    Thanks for the steer, I'll review the protrusion, and oil levels, and go from there. I always wanted an mach5/FS, alas another few yrs, so only 16 myself.
  • 04-17-2015
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bikefiend View Post
    Thanks for the steer, I'll review the protrusion, and oil levels, and go from there. I always wanted an mach5/FS, alas another few yrs, so only 16 myself.

    I had an FS Ti in 1997 and it was an amazing fork. I've been looking for one lately to buy back. Can't find one anywhere!