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Thread: Manitou Mattoc

  1. #4401
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    Has anybody attempted to fit the IVA sliding seal on an IRT shaft?

    I'm wondering if you could make an IRT for the newer comp forks that come with the IVA by swapping sliding piston/seals?

  2. #4402
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    got my CRC fork in



    my 2.8's seem to fit, leaving about 1/4" / 6mm of clearance. Is that enough? I don't ride in mud, so it seems like it would be okay?

    I just don't know enough about forks to decide to keep it and use it as is or return it and buy something else with that $250 ( don't know what other fork I could buy with that )

    What do you guys say?

  3. #4403
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Has anybody attempted to fit the IVA sliding seal on an IRT shaft?

    I'm wondering if you could make an IRT for the newer comp forks that come with the IVA by swapping sliding piston/seals?
    I haven't, but I have an IVA and and the IRT for my Magnun, I'm on the third day of servicing it .
    I can check and post the results later.

  4. #4404
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixr View Post
    got my CRC fork in



    my 2.8's seem to fit, leaving about 1/4" / 6mm of clearance. Is that enough? I don't ride in mud, so it seems like it would be okay?

    I just don't know enough about forks to decide to keep it and use it as is or return it and buy something else with that $250 ( don't know what other fork I could buy with that )

    What do you guys say?
    I rode 2.8+ tires on a non boost x-fusion fork with only 4mm or 3/16 clearance, and it was fine. Still have that setup on my singlespeed. Like you said, just avoid riding in mud.

    EDIT: As Aglo mentioned, check tire to crown clearance when fully compressed.

    If you need to buy a fork anyway, seems like youll have a hard time finding anything comparable for the price IMO. But if you were buying the fork as an "upgrade", that's where the pro would have been the better deal.

    Sounds like while it may not be quite the amazing deal we thought it was, its still a really good for for a really good price if it suits your needs.

  5. #4405
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixr View Post
    got my CRC fork in



    my 2.8's seem to fit, leaving about 1/4" / 6mm of clearance. Is that enough? I don't ride in mud, so it seems like it would be okay?

    I just don't know enough about forks to decide to keep it and use it as is or return it and buy something else with that $250 ( don't know what other fork I could buy with that )

    What do you guys say?
    Install the pump, full compress the fork, check for clearance between the tire and the crown, not the arc.
    Depending on how much clearance you have, it may be, or not be ok for you to run that tire

  6. #4406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I haven't, but I have an IVA and and the IRT for my Magnun, I'm on the third day of servicing it .
    I can check and post the results later.
    Assuming the IVA and IRT were both from a pro model, I'm not sure it will give us a definitive answer about the comp. The comp looks to have a different black piston. No idea if the shaft is the same between the Pro IVA and Comp IVA.

    I'm hoping my comp gets here tomorrow. I have a magnum with IRT that I could use to test with, but once I crack the comp open, I wont be able to return it. I was hoping someone might have some answers before I take a $240 gamble.

  7. #4407
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    Yes, they are both for the Pro version.
    I will measure both IVA and IRT shaft with a caliper and post the measurements, you can than compare with the comp shaft.


    P.S.- I missed the second part of your post.

  8. #4408
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I rode 2.8+ tires on a non boost x-fusion fork with only 4mm or 3/16 clearance, and it was fine. Still have that setup on my singlespeed. Like you said, just avoid riding in mud.

    EDIT: As Aglo mentioned, check tire to crown clearance when fully compressed.

    If you need to buy a fork anyway, seems like youll have a hard time finding anything comparable for the price IMO. But if you were buying the fork as an "upgrade", that's where the pro would have been the better deal.

    Sounds like while it may not be quite the amazing deal we thought it was, its still a really good for for a really good price if it suits your needs.
    It was more of a want than a need, current fork ( suntour xcr air ) is fine minus the broken lockout, which i never use or need in my area anyway. My thought was that it seemed to be a good deal and might as well jump on it.

    Though do note I am running faily narrow rims for 2.8 tires, in my picture they do measure 2.8" My bike came with 50mm rims which 2.8's measured 3" on so if you have wide rims it may not fit.

    I ran home on my lunch break to grab the fork from the post office, but i'll try to install it tonight and see if it clears under compression.

  9. #4409
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixr View Post
    It was more of a want than a need, current fork ( suntour xcr air ) is fine minus the broken lockout
    I disagree. If youre coming from a suntour xcr, this is a need. Borderline desperate need at that.

    Not to disparage suntour, as they make some decent high end forks, and theyre the OEM for DVO, but even the comp model mattoc is moving up quite a few tiers from the xcr.

  10. #4410
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I disagree. If youre coming from a suntour xcr, this is a need. Borderline desperate need at that.

    Not to disparage suntour, as they make some decent high end forks, and theyre the OEM for DVO, but even the comp model mattoc is moving up quite a few tiers from the xcr.
    thats good to hear, i'm not a huge mtb'r, more of a road/gravel guy, and in my area ( austin tx ) its nothing but short rocky climbs with stair step rock ledges everywhere. ( why i chose 27.5+ over 27.5/29, need the grip on the dusty loose rock ) A good hard tail is all you need in my area.

    On my bike ( raleigh tokul 3 ) the fork is the only stock thing i have left on it, changed to lighter wheels/tires, wider bars and xt brakes

    This weekend its supposed to be heavy rain, so i'll do the compression clearance test, and if it works i'll get it installed and post my old fork for sale for cheap to help recoup the cost.

  11. #4411
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    There is ~0.7mm stanchion ID difference at the top between Pro and Comp.

    If you were to get creative a Pro IRT could be modified to fit. But you need to modify the piston OD and design the new seal groove.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  12. #4412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    There is ~0.7mm stanchion ID difference at the top between Pro and Comp.

    If you were to get creative a Pro IRT could be modified to fit. But you need to modify the piston OD and design the new seal groove.
    Thanks Dougal. But rather than modify the pro IRT piston to fit the smaller comp stanchion, could you simply replace the piston with the one from the comp IVA? Are the shafts the same OD?

    Is there something else I'm missing, like would it tilt and get jammed up?

  13. #4413
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Thanks Dougal. But rather than modify the pro IRT piston to fit the smaller comp stanchion, could you simply replace the piston with the one from the comp IVA? Are the shafts the same OD?

    Is there something else I'm missing, like would it tilt and get jammed up?
    Try it and let us know. I think the shafts are both 10mm.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  14. #4414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Try it and let us know. I think the shafts are both 10mm.
    Still awaiting delivery of the comp, but if nothing immediately comes to mind that would keep it from working, I'll do just that.

    Thanks again.

  15. #4415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Try it and let us know. I think the shafts are both 10mm.
    ARRRGGGGHHH!!!! So close!

    My mattoc comp came in. Cleared my 2.8+ tires just fine, so I pulled the IVA to attempt to swap air pistons and test fit the IRT. As you said, the shaft diameters were the same, and the piston fit. But when I went to install the IRT in, it just wouldnt go. While they look identical, there's a slightly different air cap thread diameter to the pro and the comp. No good. Gonna put the new fork back to stock and ship it back I guess.

    Manitou Mattoc-irt_iva.jpg

    Manitou Mattoc-irt_iva_swapped.jpg

  16. #4416
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    That's a bummer.
    But wasn't there some Comp forks with IRT?
    That means that you could possibly order Comp's compatible IRT from Manitou.
    Me thinks .

  17. #4417
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    ARRRGGGGHHH!!!! So close!

    My mattoc comp came in. Cleared my 2.8+ tires just fine, so I pulled the IVA to attempt to swap air pistons and test fit the IRT. As you said, the shaft diameters were the same, and the piston fit. But when I went to install the IRT in, it just wouldnt go. While they look identical, there's a slightly different air cap thread diameter to the pro and the comp. No good. Gonna put the new fork back to stock and ship it back I guess.
    That may be a generational change to the threads instead of a comp/pro change.

    Got any thread gauges handy?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  18. #4418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That may be a generational change to the threads instead of a comp/pro change.

    Got any thread gauges handy?
    Sorry, no thread gauges in that size. I mic'd them up, but didnt record the sizes before i put the forks back together. From hazy memory, the thread OD was about .025" different between the two, which is almost the 0.7mm difference in stanchion ID you mentioned.

    The IRT cap was off of a 2016 magnum pro that came with IVA originally.
    The IVA cap was off the 2018 mattoc comp OE from the recent wiggle sale.

    Not sure if any of that is helpful or means anything. Let me know if you want me to check anything specifically.

    Are there two different parts for the IRT, older and newer threads? Thanks again!

  19. #4419
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    Regarding the MC2 shims, is there any order I could swap the shims to give the damping a more platform feel similar to the ABS+ "production XC stack"?

    For context, I'm running my old mattoc 2 pro on my old hardtail with road tires as an option for exercise when I can't get to the trails, but even with HSC and LSC cranked to Max, the fork still compresses more than I'd like - ideally it wouldn't move at all unless I hit a huge pothole! Anyone have any ideas?

  20. #4420
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Regarding the MC2 shims, is there any order I could swap the shims to give the damping a more platform feel similar to the ABS+ "production XC stack"?

    For context, I'm running my old mattoc 2 pro on my old hardtail with road tires as an option for exercise when I can't get to the trails, but even with HSC and LSC cranked to Max, it still moves more than I'd like - ideally it wouldn't move at all unless I hit a huge pothole! Anyone have any ideas?
    Changing the order will lower the compression damping rather than increasing.

    I suppose you the two pairs of shims with two shims with the combined thickness. That will firm it up considerably.

    But prolly best to wait for advice from the more knowledgeable.

  21. #4421
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post

    I suppose you the two pairs of shims with two shims with the combined thickness. That will firm it up considerably.
    That makes sense - I'm assuming it will also make it harder to turn the HSC dial, but it may not even need as much preload?

    Time to open it up and measure the shims

  22. #4422
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    Update on the ChainReactionCycles Fork

    They offered a full refund if you send it back, or to keep it and get a 20£ gift card as a good will gesture.

    I'm kinda stuck with what to do. My current tire/wheel combo fits, but leaves zero room for mud clearance, with a 2.8 tire its only about 1/8" clearance between the top of the knobs and the fork arch.

    the true 27.5+ version of this fork that someone posted a while back is about $100 more than the CRC version is, which the $250 for this one is already at my max.

    I could take the $20 gift card and use it on CRC to a manitou fork that is 27.5+, but their website is pretty confusing i'm not sure which one to get/trust, and in the meantime just re-sell the fork i have locally.

    Any guidance on what to do? I want a fork upgrade, just don't know what to do.

  23. #4423
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixr View Post
    They offered a full refund if you send it back, or to keep it and get a 20£ gift card as a good will gesture.

    Any guidance on what to do? I want a fork upgrade, just don't know what to do.
    Do you ride a lot of mud? Or are you worried about getting stuck out there one time?

    I've already mounted mine on my singlespeed. After working through my initial disappointment, I decided it would be very difficult to find another fork this good for anything near this price. For my needs the HSC and adjustable HBO are not necessary on this bike. And the fork that was on there had just about identical clearance. I haven't taken a ride yet, but initial curb hopping seems promising. Its still a really good deal IMO.

  24. #4424
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    No, I don't ride a lot of mud, in my area you stay off the trails when its muddy, they don't handle rain well at all.

    yeah, thats where i'm stuck. I know if I return it, I won't be able to find anything as good, or would have to spend an extra $100 at least to get something equivalent and won't be able to buy anything for a month or so until they get the item back and the bank issues a refund.

    I could move to 2.6 tires later on if i wanted, but my current tires have plenty of life, and I don't ride often enough to burn through them super quickly, and don't have funds to spend for a new set of tires.

  25. #4425
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    You mentioned 1/8 of an inch clearance to the arch. What about the sides? The tire doesnt really grow much vertically, but theres plenty of possibility for lateral movement especially with a flexy wheel.

    Here's the clearance I have. 2.8 Nobby Nics on i45 nexties. They measure almost exactly 3.00" across. Nearly identical to what I had with my last fork, so Ill run this without thinking twice.
    Manitou Mattoc-mattoc_comp_tire_clearance.jpg

  26. #4426
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    That makes sense - I'm assuming it will also make it harder to turn the HSC dial, but it may not even need as much preload?

    Time to open it up and measure the shims
    Perhaps my suggestion would not work since without spacer shims the actual damping shims don't have enough room to move out of the way? Dougal or Mullen will probably be able to advise. I zuppose it would be a lot easier fo just try thicker oil?

    From the top of my head the shims sequence is something like:

    10 12 0.1
    10 21 0.2

    8 11 0.25
    8 17.5 0.1

  27. #4427
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    here is my clearance



    Bad photo, doesn't show the sides that well from that angle.
    ( tire is a veetire co crown gem 2.8, measures 3" )

    I definitely can not fit a finger between the tire and fork arch, and know if i ever pick up a muddy rock its going to beat up the fork pretty badly.

  28. #4428
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Perhaps my suggestion would not work since without spacer shims the actual damping shims don't have enough room to move out of the way? Dougal or Mullen will probably be able to advise. I zuppose it would be a lot easier fo just try thicker oil?

    From the top of my head the shims sequence is something like:

    10 12 0.1
    10 21 0.2

    8 11 0.25
    8 17.5 0.1
    Ah, yeah, thicker oil would definitely be an improvement - not the platform I would prefer, but that might be a simpler fix.

    Which shims get the preload put on them? the 8mm or 10mm ID ones?

  29. #4429
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Regarding the MC2 shims, is there any order I could swap the shims to give the damping a more platform feel similar to the ABS+ "production XC stack"?

    For context, I'm running my old mattoc 2 pro on my old hardtail with road tires as an option for exercise when I can't get to the trails, but even with HSC and LSC cranked to Max, the fork still compresses more than I'd like - ideally it wouldn't move at all unless I hit a huge pothole! Anyone have any ideas?
    Is it still too active if you run high PSI? (what is max?)

  30. #4430
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Ah, yeah, thicker oil would definitely be an improvement - not the platform I would prefer, but that might be a simpler fix.

    Which shims get the preload put on them? the 8mm or 10mm ID ones?
    From memory the 10 ID ones. Info should also be upthread somewhere. But yeah the thread grew into a bit of a monster.

  31. #4431
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Ah, yeah, thicker oil would definitely be an improvement - not the platform I would prefer, but that might be a simpler fix.

    Which shims get the preload put on them? the 8mm or 10mm ID ones?
    Thicker oil will not help much, oil viscosity has a larger effect on low speed orifices and a very minimal effect on shims.

    The 10mm shims are the ones that get preloaded

    I'll have to look at my notes when I get a chance. Shim spacing on the mc2 damper is very important to keep function of the HSC adjustment, that's why there is no tuning guide for it. If the stacks listed in the post above are correct (been a while since I have worked with a MC2 damper tune). My first thought would be to change the 8x17.5x.1 for a 8x20x.1. This will preload the velocity stack and keep the spacing within spec. Should get you where you want to be.

  32. #4432
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    Here's what the clearance on the CRC fork looks like with a WTB Ranger TCS 27.5x3.0 on i40 rim -- it's nowhere near enough for me to consider it safe to ride on:
    Manitou Mattoc-img_20190409_081049162.jpg
    Manitou Mattoc-img_20190409_081025555.jpg
    Manitou Mattoc-img_20190409_081032362.jpg

    I did try dropping the pressure down to 0 psi and compressing the fork to check clearance vs. the crown in addition to the clearance to the arch, but in my quick attempts, I couldn't get the crown to compress down any lower than the arch.

    Returning at this point to get something designed for 27.5+.

    (Edit: made a note above images to clarify that the photos are to show that there isn't enough room for a real plus sized tire, not to show that it's workable)
    Last edited by TimTucker; 04-09-2019 at 01:47 PM.

  33. #4433
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    Is the fork at max PSI, LSC and HSC still moving too much? I can't imagine, because if I close both compression circuits with normal PSI, the fork only moves on really hard impacts.

  34. #4434
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Thicker oil will not help much, oil viscosity has a larger effect on low speed orifices and a very minimal effect on shims.

    The 10mm shims are the ones that get preloaded

    I'll have to look at my notes when I get a chance. Shim spacing on the mc2 damper is very important to keep function of the HSC adjustment, that's why there is no tuning guide for it. If the stacks listed in the post above are correct (been a while since I have worked with a MC2 damper tune). My first thought would be to change the 8x17.5x.1 for a 8x20x.1. This will preload the velocity stack and keep the spacing within spec. Should get you where you want to be.

    Thanks again, mullen119! What if I didn't care about the HSC adjustment, could I just stuff the damper with more 8mm ID shims? Would it still operate properly otherwise, at least from the standpoint of avoiding some critical damage to the damper?

    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    Is it still too active if you run high PSI? (what is max?)
    That's a good thought - i'm nowhere near the max, and I already have the psi up about 20psi over what i normally had it at when it was used for mtb, i don't want to have too little sag, but i might experiment with upping it even more if I can keep, say, 10% sag

  35. #4435
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    Good luck trying to return them. Since i ordered over the phone they won't give me a return slip, and only offered a pick up when i'm not home, or for me to ship it back myself and they would somehow refund my shipping cost.

    100% false advertising on their part.

  36. #4436
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixr View Post
    Good luck trying to return them. Since i ordered over the phone they won't give me a return slip, and only offered a pick up when i'm not home, or for me to ship it back myself and they would somehow refund my shipping cost.

    100% false advertising on their part.
    I ordered online through Wiggle and decided to return.

    Contacted them and was told to mark it as a return with "Wrong Item Sent" as the reason and was able to print out a prepaid shipping label to send it back.

    Looks like I should be able to just drop it off at the local post office.

  37. #4437
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    they are not giving me that option, only to keep it and get a $20 gift card, or return it.

    Exchanging it for the item that matches what they advertised, what i paid for, or an equal equivalent is out of the question for them and their email support has been super unhelpful. They are now claiming the forks as "our property" as if i took them from them. what a joke of a company.

  38. #4438
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimTucker View Post
    Here's what the clearance on the CRC fork looks like with a WTB Ranger TCS 27.5x3.0 on i40 rim:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I did try dropping the pressure down to 0 psi and compressing the fork to check clearance vs. the crown in addition to the clearance to the arch, but in my quick attempts, I couldn't get the crown to compress down any lower than the arch.

    Leaning towards returning at this point to get something designed for 27.5+.

    (Edit: made a note above images to clarify that the photos are to show that there isn't enough room for a real plus sized tire, not to show that it's workable)
    You do know you're a full 0.4" past Manitou's recommended tyre size right?

    The issue besides static clearance is wheel flex. When you bottom out hard the flex in everything puts the wheel and tyre even closer to the crown and brace.
    Last edited by Dougal; 04-09-2019 at 02:23 PM.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  39. #4439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You do know you're a full 0.4" past Manitou's recommended tyre size right?

    The issue besides static clearance is wheel flex. When you bottom out hard the flex in everything puts the wheel and tyre even closer to the crown and brace.
    Hence why it's getting returned and I'll be buying a fork that's actually designed for 27.5x3.0 tires from somewhere else.

    It's for my wife's first mtb, so better safe than sorry.

  40. #4440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    You do know you're a full 0.4" past Manitou's recommended tyre size right?
    Which would have not been a problem if CRC didn't sell the fork claiming it as a 27.5+ fork while shipping the regular 27.5 version. He got screwed like the rest of us did.

  41. #4441
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixr View Post
    Which would have not been a problem if CRC didn't sell the fork claiming it as a 27.5+ fork while shipping the regular 27.5 version. He got screwed like the rest of us did.
    Sure. But there are possibly hundreds of people who will see a photo like this and go "look, it fits" then go and eat dirt on the first hard compression.

    IMO it would be cheaper and better to go with a 2.6" tyre. Unless you're riding in sand.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sure. But there are possibly hundreds of people who will see a photo like this and go "look, it fits" then go and eat dirt on the first hard compression.

    IMO it would be cheaper and better to go with a 2.6" tyre. Unless you're riding in sand.
    I added some notes to my original post to make it clearer that the photos are to show for future reference that there's not enough clearance for 3.0 tires, not that it's workable.

    I tossed the tire on & took the photos before work and the more I look at them, the more I can imagine a small branch or rock getting sucked up by the tire and my wife going over the bars.

    Might be helpful if you can update your response that quotes the original post to include the updated text.

    There are indeed some sandy sections on the local trails that I'll be riding with my wife -- the 3" tires should make those a little easier on her.

  43. #4443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimTucker View Post
    I added some notes to my original post to make it clearer that the photos are to show for future reference that there's not enough clearance for 3.0 tires, not that it's workable.

    I tossed the tire on & took the photos before work and the more I look at them, the more I can imagine a small branch or rock getting sucked up by the tire and my wife going over the bars.

    Might be helpful if you can update your response that quotes the original post to include the updated text.

    There are indeed some sandy sections on the local trails that I'll be riding with my wife -- the 3" tires should make those a little easier on her.
    I've added in your edit.

    One of my mates has the Pro version of this fork with a DHF 2.8" and he runs that without issues.
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  44. #4444
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Thanks again, mullen119! What if I didn't care about the HSC adjustment, could I just stuff the damper with more 8mm ID shims? Would it still operate properly otherwise, at least from the standpoint of avoiding some critical damage to the damper?



    That's a good thought - i'm nowhere near the max, and I already have the psi up about 20psi over what i normally had it at when it was used for mtb, i don't want to have too little sag, but i might experiment with upping it even more if I can keep, say, 10% sag
    I wouldn't stuff it full of shims, but you could add an extra shim to either stack. I haven't had time to look at my notes. Switching the 10x21x.2 for a .25 will make a significant difference as well and not change spacing much as another option

  45. #4445
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Thicker oil will not help much, oil viscosity has a larger effect on low speed orifices and a very minimal effect on shims.

    The 10mm shims are the ones that get preloaded

    I'll have to look at my notes when I get a chance. Shim spacing on the mc2 damper is very important to keep function of the HSC adjustment, that's why there is no tuning guide for it. If the stacks listed in the post above are correct (been a while since I have worked with a MC2 damper tune). My first thought would be to change the 8x17.5x.1 for a 8x20x.1. This will preload the velocity stack and keep the spacing within spec. Should get you where you want to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    Is it still too active if you run high PSI? (what is max?)
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I wouldn't stuff it full of shims, but you could add an extra shim to either stack. I haven't had time to look at my notes. Switching the 10x21x.2 for a .25 will make a significant difference as well and not change spacing much as another option
    awesome, thanks, i'll give that a try! I have .2 shims around of the OD you recommended, just not .1 shims, so if that doesn't work i'll order the .1 8mm shims you mentioned earlier.

  46. #4446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Sure. But there are possibly hundreds of people who will see a photo like this and go "look, it fits" then go and eat dirt on the first hard compression.

    IMO it would be cheaper and better to go with a 2.6" tyre. Unless you're riding in sand.
    Assuming you're not using the full travel, and are willing to accept an extra 10mm axle to crown, couldn't you just take a spacer from the the compression rod stack and move it under the bottom out bumper? The downside would be HBO wouldn't work so well since youre effectively removing the last 10mm of travel from the dampers point of view.

  47. #4447
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Assuming you're not using the full travel, and are willing to accept an extra 10mm axle to crown, couldn't you just take a spacer from the the compression rod stack and move it under the bottom out bumper? The downside would be HBO wouldn't work so well since youre effectively removing the last 10mm of travel from the dampers point of view.
    That will fix the crown clearance, while disrupting HBO, but you've still got the low brace.

    I think 2.8" is the best solution.
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  48. #4448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That will fix the crown clearance, while disrupting HBO, but you've still got the low brace.

    I think 2.8" is the best solution.
    I would agree. But in my case (which is similar to the above post) I'm already running 2.8s that measure just about 3" on i45 rims. I'm not willing to drop down to 2.6s though. I have yet to check crown clearance, but if I find it to be particularly tight, I may try to shim the bottom-out bumper by 5mm if possible. That would give me a little extra safety with the crown, but should retain most of the HBO (not that I ever hit it). This would be on my singlespeed that will never see any mud, so a tight arch is a bit more acceptable. My primary bike has a magnum pro, so no worries about clearance there.

  49. #4449
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    I would agree. But in my case (which is similar to the above post) I'm already running 2.8s that measure just about 3" on i45 rims. I'm not willing to drop down to 2.6s though. I have yet to check crown clearance, but if I find it to be particularly tight, I may try to shim the bottom-out bumper by 5mm if possible. That would give me a little extra safety with the crown, but should retain most of the HBO (not that I ever hit it). This would be on my singlespeed that will never see any mud, so a tight arch is a bit more acceptable. My primary bike has a magnum pro, so no worries about clearance there.
    A 2.8 might be close in width to a 3.0, but it will be lower height.
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  50. #4450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes. But I can't say.

    11th April isn't that far away.........
    Anybody have any updates?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  51. #4451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Anybody have any updates?
    Just looked at their website and nothing major showing up. Only thing I found was they have a Markhor J-unit fork that is a 20"/24" fork..

  52. #4452
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Just looked at their website and nothing major showing up. Only thing I found was they have a Markhor J-unit fork that is a 20"/24" fork..
    Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.

    The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.

    I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer

  53. #4453
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.

    The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.

    I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer
    So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.

  54. #4454
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.

    The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.

    I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer
    Is this going to make me want to hold off buying a new 130mm Mattoc Pro in the next month to so? I know they updated the Mattoc last year so I can't see major upgrades coming to it.

  55. #4455
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.
    I don't know when it will be. All I can say is it will be worth the wait.

  56. #4456
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdaniel93 View Post
    Is this going to make me want to hold off buying a new 130mm Mattoc Pro in the next month to so? I know they updated the Mattoc last year so I can't see major upgrades coming to it.
    I would feel good about buying a Mattoc pro

  57. #4457
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    Something we have all been asking for... long travel 29ER Mattoc Pro (meaning 140mm to 170mm for standard 29er tires up to 2.5") with multiple offsets available.

    Or at least that is what I am hoping for. Also noticed that the McLeod is the only shock now showing on the website, so anticipating a coil version and possibly piggyback version of the "McLeod".

  58. #4458
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Machete j-unit is the release. Kid specific fork with kids specific tune.

    The important part is that it uses expert air (Dorado air) in a 32mm chassis instead of iso air.

    I know you guys wanted more, just a little longer
    Now I'm really curious after looking at the specs & I know others frequenting the Familes & Riding with Kids forum will be as well. I put up a separate post there, since I'm assuming most in this thread will be less interested in the details:
    https://forums.mtbr.com/families-rid...t-1101268.html

    I'm not aware of 20" or 24" frames being made right now with 1.5" tapered headtubes -- is this a "If you build it they will come" type of situation where you're testing the market and putting it out there hoping it'll get adopted, or should we expect some big announcements from bike manufacturers within the next few months?

  59. #4459
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimTucker View Post
    Now I'm really curious after looking at the specs & I know others frequenting the Familes & Riding with Kids forum will be as well. I put up a separate post there, since I'm assuming most in this thread will be less interested in the details:
    https://forums.mtbr.com/families-rid...t-1101268.html

    I'm not aware of 20" or 24" frames being made right now with 1.5" tapered headtubes -- is this a "If you build it they will come" type of situation where you're testing the market and putting it out there hoping it'll get adopted, or should we expect some big announcements from bike manufacturers within the next few months?
    Think that TrailCraft bikes uses tapered or 1.5" steerer forks.

  60. #4460
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimTucker View Post
    Now I'm really curious after looking at the specs & I know others frequenting the Familes & Riding with Kids forum will be as well. I put up a separate post there, since I'm assuming most in this thread will be less interested in the details:
    https://forums.mtbr.com/families-rid...t-1101268.html

    I'm not aware of 20" or 24" frames being made right now with 1.5" tapered headtubes -- is this a "If you build it they will come" type of situation where you're testing the market and putting it out there hoping it'll get adopted, or should we expect some big announcements from bike manufacturers within the next few months?
    I believe a few oem's requested it. It's a high end fork for kids standards, a solid mid grade fork in the adult world. Kona was a big one and a version is on the process 24

  61. #4461
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.
    Given the photos of Dougals bike with a blurred out rear shock and Manitou teasing base valves that look similar but not the same as the Mcleod parts, i would say there is certainly a new rear shock coming. Fork wise who knows?

  62. #4462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Anybody have any updates?
    https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...s-1101283.html
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  63. #4463
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    Some time ago Manitou had on the webpage a photo of a Trunnion Mount shock, I hope that's not the big news.

  64. #4464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Some time ago Manitou had on the webpage a photo of a Trunnion Mount shock, I hope that's not the big news.
    That's not todays news. Today is about the J-unit range and the Dominion A2 brakes. 2 piston version of the Dominion A4.
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  65. #4465
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    I know, I was referring to the next news .

  66. #4466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    I know, I was referring to the next news .
    Patience grasshopper!
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  67. #4467
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    Quote Originally Posted by shmity View Post
    Given the photos of Dougals bike with a blurred out rear shock and Manitou teasing base valves that look similar but not the same as the Mcleod parts, i would say there is certainly a new rear shock coming. Fork wise who knows?
    Well don't forget that we have seen articles from bikes out at parks like whistler that were running an unbadged Manitou fork that was longer travel and 29er. It has been something they have been working on since they brought out the Mattoc/Magnum a couple years back so probably just working out the kinks of shorter offset and longer travel with the reverse rear arch.

  68. #4468
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Well don't forget that we have seen articles from bikes out at parks like whistler that were running an unbadged Manitou fork that was longer travel and 29er. It has been something they have been working on since they brought out the Mattoc/Magnum a couple years back so probably just working out the kinks of shorter offset and longer travel with the reverse rear arch.
    Also. Sea-Otter is an XC event. Not really the target market for releasing a burly fork.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  69. #4469
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    Joe at takeahikeshop.com has a 140mm 27.5 mattoc pro, it is 160mm travel reduced to 140mm. I'm sure he'd make a deal on it. If anyone is interested hit up their email or text line.

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    Looking good.

    https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy...a-hubs-return/

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  71. #4471
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Looking good.

    https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy...a-hubs-return/

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Seriously with the graphics?! Hopefully they will be easily removable and have a "blacked out" set. Two forks shown were 27.5" so hopefully there is a full 29er in there as well (or at least 27.5+/29)

    New piggyback shock is interesting too.

  72. #4472
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Looking good.

    https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy...a-hubs-return/

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Interesting!


    On a different note. I changed my Mattoc from the expert to the pro and installed the high flow piston. No other changes made. Now the rebound seems quite fast.

    I'm wondering if I somehow made a mistake reassembling. I slowly cycled the damper side to get the air out so can't imagine that being the cause. Filled it up to 75mm.

    Anyway, gonna ride it first and see how it feels on the trail.

  73. #4473
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Seriously with the graphics?! Hopefully they will be easily removable and have a "blacked out" set. Two forks shown were 27.5" so hopefully there is a full 29er in there as well (or at least 27.5+/29)
    Címon! Thatís OG Manitou graphics!!!

    Los (whose first suspension fork was a Manitou 2...)


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  74. #4474
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    Quote Originally Posted by sslos View Post
    Címon! Thatís OG Manitou graphics!!!

    Los (whose first suspension fork was a Manitou 2...)


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    LOL... yeah I know, just DESPISE crap like that, that is overly garish and annoying/obtrusive. At least if you are going to do that, then make the stickers/decal easily removable.

  75. #4475
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    I'm sure you can remove them, but don't find the decals that attention grabbing myself to be honest.

  76. #4476
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Looking good.

    https://bikerumor.com/2019/04/15/spy...a-hubs-return/

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    Like the look of the HSC/LSC adjusters but where is the HBO!

    The rear shock looks good too, the piggyback is huge!

  77. #4477
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    I like the decals, looks clean. If production ones are the same I would say they are easily the best looking forks on the market. I like the polished look too.

    The HBO not being there seems like a strange omission. Hopefully it's just for the proto's. The article just said multi control damper not MC2. Perhaps with IRT the HBO isn't needed as much, which would leave more room for something with even more adjustment?

  78. #4478
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    It more than likely has HBO but non adjustable, the Dorado also has non adjustable HBO.

  79. #4479
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    Mezzer discussion thread here: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...r-1101508.html

    Stickers are the easiest thing to change. I think silver is a VIP colour. Like Hannes Klausner on the silver Mattoc. But we shall see.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    sigh... just got my ~2 month old mattoc comp 160 boost back from warranty for bushing slop, and the ABS+ damper won't turn. it moves a half a click in either direction - i'm afraid to push much harder until i can get it home to my tools

    anyone have any idea what this could be? I assume Manitou didn't even mess with my uppers just for a lower leg swap

  81. #4481
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    sigh... just got my ~2 month old mattoc comp 160 boost back from warranty for bushing slop, and the ABS+ damper won't turn. it moves a half a click in either direction - i'm afraid to push much harder until i can get it home to my tools

    anyone have any idea what this could be? I assume Manitou didn't even mess with my uppers just for a lower leg swap
    Depends on the knob, but if it has the aluminium knob with plate and the plate has been put in the wrong orientation (i.e. notch not lined up with tab) then it doesn't like to turn.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  82. #4482
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    sigh... just got my ~2 month old mattoc comp 160 boost back from warranty for bushing slop, and the ABS+ damper won't turn. it moves a half a click in either direction - i'm afraid to push much harder until i can get it home to my tools

    anyone have any idea what this could be? I assume Manitou didn't even mess with my uppers just for a lower leg swap
    Take the knob off carefully and check the spring/detent balls to make sure they are installed correctly

  83. #4483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Depends on the knob, but if it has the aluminium knob with plate and the plate has been put in the wrong orientation (i.e. notch not lined up with tab) then it doesn't like to turn.
    thanks for the reply, dougal- so would just unscrewing the 2mm bolt and re-seating it potentially fix it?

    i wasn't having the problem when i sent it in- would they have even touched the uppers for a bushing/lowers swap?

  84. #4484
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Take the knob off carefully and check the spring/detent balls to make sure they are installed correctly
    will do, thanks! I'll report back for posterity in case anyone else encounters the same

  85. #4485
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    thanks for the reply, dougal- so would just unscrewing the 2mm bolt and re-seating it potentially fix it?

    i wasn't having the problem when i sent it in- would they have even touched the uppers for a bushing/lowers swap?
    There is no reason to, but Manitou is a company that goes above and beyond, so they may have done a full rebuild or updated other parts while it was in. Hard to say exactly what happened,but it's likely a minor issue.

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    Anyone have any suggestions on which Mattoc I should get?

    I was one of the ones who purchased the mislabeled Mattoc Pro from CRC. CRC sent me carbon wheels instead so I didn't have the option to just keep what they sent and take a $20 gift card.


    I'm a 260 pound Clyde and will be buying a mattoc in the next month or two. My question is whether or not I should get the pro or the comp? Gonna be running it at 140mm on my hawk Hill and do some pretty rocky/rooty stuff in SC and WNC. I'm worried I might pack up the Comp after multiple big hits vs the Pro.

    Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this.

  87. #4487
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    There is no reason to, but Manitou is a company that goes above and beyond, so they may have done a full rebuild or updated other parts while it was in. Hard to say exactly what happened,but it's likely a minor issue.
    well I'm an idiot, I forgot that I had mentioned to Manitou that my rebound damper seemed a bit funky when I sent the fork in for the bushings. they must have replaced the rebound damper too. I took the abs dial off, and using a little more force, was able to get the knob turning - I guess it was just turned too far counterclockwise when they reinstalled it and was slightly stuck, but now it's turning fine!

    BUT! I put the fork back on the bike and sure enough bushing slop is just as bad as when I sent it in- nice and loud knock when I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth (not the headset, axle or brake pads). I can also feel it really strong in the upper part of the lowers on the right side when I hold on to them. ugh, I guess it's going back again. apparently Manitou has no way to test whether their replacement lowers have bushing to proper spec. this isn't the first Mattoc I've gotten back from Manitou with bushing slop just as bad in the replacement. they've always made it right, though. I guess I'll be contacting them tomorrow

  88. #4488
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    well I'm an idiot, I forgot that I had mentioned to Manitou that my rebound damper seemed a bit funky when I sent the fork in for the bushings. they must have replaced the rebound damper too. I took the abs dial off, and using a little more force, was able to get the knob turning - I guess it was just turned too far counterclockwise when they reinstalled it and was slightly stuck, but now it's turning fine!

    BUT! I put the fork back on the bike and sure enough bushing slop is just as bad as when I sent it in- nice and loud knock when I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth (not the headset, axle or brake pads). I can also feel it really strong in the upper part of the lowers on the right side when I hold on to them. ugh, I guess it's going back again. apparently Manitou has no way to test whether their replacement lowers have bushing to proper spec. this isn't the first Mattoc I've gotten back from Manitou with bushing slop just as bad in the replacement. they've always made it right, though. I guess I'll be contacting them tomorrow
    I can't comment on bushing slop, I have only personally experienced tight bushings that bind. I would hope the replacements are better.

    As for the rebound damper, a new piston was developed in the past year that allows more flow on the compression stroke on the comp models. I'm guessing they upgraded you since you mentioned a possible issue. 0

  89. #4489
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    well I'm an idiot, I forgot that I had mentioned to Manitou that my rebound damper seemed a bit funky when I sent the fork in for the bushings. they must have replaced the rebound damper too. I took the abs dial off, and using a little more force, was able to get the knob turning - I guess it was just turned too far counterclockwise when they reinstalled it and was slightly stuck, but now it's turning fine!

    BUT! I put the fork back on the bike and sure enough bushing slop is just as bad as when I sent it in- nice and loud knock when I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth (not the headset, axle or brake pads). I can also feel it really strong in the upper part of the lowers on the right side when I hold on to them. ugh, I guess it's going back again. apparently Manitou has no way to test whether their replacement lowers have bushing to proper spec. this isn't the first Mattoc I've gotten back from Manitou with bushing slop just as bad in the replacement. they've always made it right, though. I guess I'll be contacting them tomorrow
    It looks like they have production issues with mattoc boost forks. I am on my third mattoc boost pro and it still has bushings play. Also, it binds greatly under even slight side force. Exactly the same as the previous two forks. Each time, they changed the whole fork. All three were red and made in November 2017. It will probably go to the warranty again soon enough, but don't know what to do next. I don't expect the fourth one to be ok, honestly...

  90. #4490
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    Quote Originally Posted by s-master View Post
    It looks like they have production issues with mattoc boost forks. I am on my third mattoc boost pro and it still has bushings play. Also, it binds greatly under even slight side force. Exactly the same as the previous two forks. Each time, they changed the whole fork. All three were red and made in November 2017. It will probably go to the warranty again soon enough, but don't know what to do next. I don't expect the fourth one to be ok, honestly...
    If you had play in the top-right bushing, that has been sorted at production some time ago.
    But we've still got to mop up the forks out there with an issue. It only affects the 27" boost models and not all of them.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  91. #4491
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    So another release coming later in the year? You're killing me smalls.

    3 months wait was the info I was given to wait as I'm after a smaller offset fork

  92. #4492
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    Quote Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    3 months wait was the info I was given to wait as I'm after a smaller offset fork
    If you're looking for 27.5, the 26'' model/lowers has 41mm vs.the 27.5' 44mm

  93. #4493
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    If you're looking for 27.5, the 26'' model/lowers has 41mm vs.the 27.5' 44mm
    already got a 27.5 mattoc pro. wanting a 37mm offset fork

  94. #4494
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    Yeah then the 26 lowers is closest you can get at the moment. No idea what Manitou has in the pipeline regarding lower offsets.

  95. #4495
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    At what point do you decide to reshim the HSC internally vs trying to change dials?

    I am 140lbs with Mattoc with IRT (32psi main spring 48 IRT, HBO almost all the way in, HSC +3, LSC +1) at 140mm and am trying to set it up better for roots. The balance I am having a hard time finding is eating the roots w/o being too wallowy under hard pedaling.

    I saw a post buried in here about trying low main air, but turn up LSC. I haven't experimented with that one yet.

    If this doesn't work well, I am wondering if I should go in an reshim the damper. I had an ABS+ before so have some shims on hand and a little experience.

    EDIT- in doing more reading, maybe it is time for Dougal's high-flow damper?
    Last edited by ashwinearl; 04-19-2019 at 06:55 AM.

  96. #4496
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    Sorry, but it's not possible to have no pedal bob and very good compliance at the same time, mayby don't pedal as standing?
    You could also try to run low speed compression fully closed and less hsc, with lsc almost fully open the hsc doesn't help with pedal bob at all, while affecting bump absorbtion by a lot.

  97. #4497
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    That's a lot of hsc for very little air in the spring. Maybe add some air and back off hsc and you could add some lsc

  98. #4498
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    At what point do you decide to reshim the HSC internally vs trying to change dials?

    I am 140lbs with Mattoc with IRT (32psi main spring 48 IRT, HBO almost all the way in, HSC +3, LSC +1) at 140mm and am trying to set it up better for roots. The balance I am having a hard time finding is eating the roots w/o being too wallowy under hard pedaling.

    I saw a post buried in here about trying low main air, but turn up LSC. I haven't experimented with that one yet.

    If this doesn't work well, I am wondering if I should go in an reshim the damper. I had an ABS+ before so have some shims on hand and a little experience.

    EDIT- in doing more reading, maybe it is time for Dougal's high-flow damper?
    What kind of bike do you have? Im a seated pedaler (Bronson v1) so of course under hard pedaling I don't have a problem with the fork, and the vpp2 I guess likes seated pedaling better, I think.

    I was 145 now I'm 133 (yikes, family has a history of high cholesterol so a diagnosis this year got me watching what I eat a little the pounds just wasted away) so I'm very interested in what numbers you settle on. I have an IRT I haven't installed but will. Have you tried a higher IRT pressure? Oh and what is your travel? I'm on 160mm but debating going back down to 150/150.

  99. #4499
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    What kind of bike do you have? Im a seated pedaler (Bronson v1) so of course under hard pedaling I don't have a problem with the fork, and the vpp2 I guess likes seated pedaling better, I think.

    I was 145 now I'm 133 (yikes, family has a history of high cholesterol so a diagnosis this year got me watching what I eat a little the pounds just wasted away) so I'm very interested in what numbers you settle on. I have an IRT I haven't installed but will. Have you tried a higher IRT pressure? Oh and what is your travel? I'm on 160mm but debating going back down to 150/150.
    Wow that is a lot of weight to drop percentage bodyweight wise. Good job.

    I am riding a Kona Hei Hei trail 140mm/140mm. It uses their Fuse rear end suspension which is has stiffer pedaling characteristics. I like its seated pedaling. One issue I need to look into is potentially having the rebound too fast on the rear end.

    In scanning through past posts in this thread (yes all 45 pages of mostly pure gold), one nugget stood out: "...The main thing with fork dive is to stop the rear shock accentuating it with rapid rebound from sag."

    I have to deal with lots of roots, so am focused on being able to suck up these small square edged, high-speed events. The other part of the optimization is minimizing wallow bouncing under heavy pedaling. I am not looking for XC type platform, and don't expect a stiff fork while at the same time being able to take the roots. But, I still haven't found the happy spot between the two.

    I have the IRT, and based on past posts, keep the IRT within 20psi of the main spring usually.

    I have motorex 2.5wt oil in the damper, have the new seals, and use Fox 20wt as bath oil, and have slikoleum on top of the spring.

    My plans for experimenting are:
    -Lower main air, combined with higher LSC
    -increase rebound compression on my rear end
    -retesting impact of clicks in HSC combined with clicks in LSC. Past posts discuss the preload that the HSC puts on the top part of the shim stack which magnifies the impact of a click of LSC.
    -get a high flow damper from Dougal
    -get the hot pink oil from Dougal

  100. #4500
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    My wife had problems with harshness and diving with her 135lbs on her Mattoc expert with IRT. The air pressure was either low with slightly less harshness but too much dive or no dive but too harsch.

    Converted to the pro assembly with the high flow piston and it's night and day for her. She can now ride the air pressure that is needed with much better small bump comfort and being able to look much further ahead because of absent trail vibration. She's really happy with it.

  101. #4501
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    Wow that is a lot of weight to drop percentage bodyweight wise. Good job.

    I am riding a Kona Hei Hei trail 140mm/140mm. It uses their Fuse rear end suspension which is has stiffer pedaling characteristics. I like its seated pedaling. One issue I need to look into is potentially having the rebound too fast on the rear end.

    In scanning through past posts in this thread (yes all 45 pages of mostly pure gold), one nugget stood out: "...The main thing with fork dive is to stop the rear shock accentuating it with rapid rebound from sag."

    I have to deal with lots of roots, so am focused on being able to suck up these small square edged, high-speed events. The other part of the optimization is minimizing wallow bouncing under heavy pedaling. I am not looking for XC type platform, and don't expect a stiff fork while at the same time being able to take the roots. But, I still haven't found the happy spot between the two.

    I have the IRT, and based on past posts, keep the IRT within 20psi of the main spring usually.

    I have motorex 2.5wt oil in the damper, have the new seals, and use Fox 20wt as bath oil, and have slikoleum on top of the spring.

    My plans for experimenting are:
    -Lower main air, combined with higher LSC
    -increase rebound compression on my rear end
    -retesting impact of clicks in HSC combined with clicks in LSC. Past posts discuss the preload that the HSC puts on the top part of the shim stack which magnifies the impact of a click of LSC.
    -get a high flow damper from Dougal
    -get the hot pink oil from Dougal

    Not sure where keeping the IRT pressure within 20psi of the main spring came from. Manitou's own recommendation is 40psi split

    Dougals piston is good, so if you having harshness issues, it's a good way to give you a way to dial it out. The hot oil pink oil is not something you will notice a change with though. I'd spend the money on some supergliss instead. Any quality oil with a [email protected] of 14-15 will work fine. Motorex 2.5 or Maxima 5wt are more than good enough.

  102. #4502
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Not sure where keeping the IRT pressure within 20psi of the main spring came from.
    This came from a post in here from Dougal when he was discussing identifying a starting pressure for IRT. "...So I tell people now. Take your main pressure, use 10psi less in the lower chamber, 10psi more in the top and then tune from there...."

  103. #4503
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    Looking for a bit of info on the Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 Boost fork. It's showing 120mm but it looks like the travel guide shows it's possible to reduce to a 100mm fork or go upto 140 with spacer changes. All the other websites / info I see shows 120-140mm adjustment only. I'd like to go 100mm for an XC bike. Anyone know which is correct?

  104. #4504
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    This came from a post in here from Dougal when he was discussing identifying a starting pressure for IRT. "...So I tell people now. Take your main pressure, use 10psi less in the lower chamber, 10psi more in the top and then tune from there...."
    Interesting. I personally run 55-99 in my 160mm Mattoc pro boost. Pressures that close together mimic a normal air spring set up and lack the mid stroke support I personally expect from the IRT system.

    Set ups are personal though, everyone looks for different things

  105. #4505
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowTri View Post
    Looking for a bit of info on the Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 Boost fork. It's showing 120mm but it looks like the travel guide shows it's possible to reduce to a 100mm fork or go upto 140 with spacer changes. All the other websites / info I see shows 120-140mm adjustment only. I'd like to go 100mm for an XC bike. Anyone know which is correct?
    The 120 can go up to 140. You can lower it as far as you want, but the more you lower it, the larger the negative air chamber gets. Not a huge issue, but it can lead to spring curves that are too linear for larger rider. Most don't have an issue with 4 spacers from max travel number(140 down to 100 in this case), but it's not recommended to go past 4.

  106. #4506
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    My wife had problems with harshness and diving with her 135lbs on her Mattoc expert with IRT. The air pressure was either low with slightly less harshness but too much dive or no dive but too harsch.

    Converted to the pro assembly with the high flow piston and it's night and day for her. She can now ride the air pressure that is needed with much better small bump comfort and being able to look much further ahead because of absent trail vibration. She's really happy with it.
    @CS645, can you share what her current settings are? What travel is the fork set to? What damper oil/wt did you put in it?

    thanks

  107. #4507
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You can lower it as far as you want, but the more you lower it, the larger the negative air chamber gets. Not a huge issue, but it can lead to spring curves that are too linear for larger rider.
    I was amazed at the difference in feel when I ran 150mm for a little bit after my typical 140mm. It felt more progressive which I liked. But the bike was designed primarily around 140mm and I liked that for the tight, slow single track we have.

  108. #4508
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Not sure where keeping the IRT pressure within 20psi of the main spring came from. Manitou's own recommendation is 40psi split

    Dougals piston is good, so if you having harshness issues, it's a good way to give you a way to dial it out. The hot oil pink oil is not something you will notice a change with though. I'd spend the money on some supergliss instead. Any quality oil with a [email protected] of 14-15 will work fine. Motorex 2.5 or Maxima 5wt are more than good enough.
    The 20psi split is just the starting point for IRT tuning. From there most people are in the range of 1.5-2x pressure difference.
    I used to run 40/60psi. Now I'm at 40/80.

    The Hot Oil Pink is for two reasons.
    The first is minimal variation from below freezing to as hot as you can get it.
    The second is a cool noise. It seems to amplify the sound of oil through shims. You either love hearing that or hate it. I love it.

    For people who hate hearing shim noise we have the Hot Oil Green. It's much quieter, not quite as awesome for temperature range but still very, very good.

    Most people are fine with a good 15 cSt oil. Especially in a fork. It's very hard to get a fork damper hot and cold is only an issue for some.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  109. #4509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The 20psi split is just the starting point for IRT tuning. From there most people are in the range of 1.5-2x pressure difference.
    I used to run 40/60psi. Now I'm at 40/80.

    The Hot Oil Pink is for two reasons.
    The first is minimal variation from below freezing to as hot as you can get it.
    The second is a cool noise. It seems to amplify the sound of oil through shims. You either love hearing that or hate it. I love it.

    For people who hate hearing shim noise we have the Hot Oil Green. It's much quieter, not quite as awesome for temperature range but still very, very good.

    Most people are fine with a good 15 cSt oil. Especially in a fork. It's very hard to get a fork damper hot and cold is only an issue for some.
    The 30-40psi split seems to be the sweet spot ( Manitou recommendation of 40 is probably a little much for some people)

    I don't have anything against hot oil pink, I have it in one of my mattoc pro's. I have another with Maxima rsf ( mastadon oil) and my mattoc comp has 85/150 (stock Manitou oil). all work great. Never noticed shim noise being amplified, but but I'd be ok with it. I'll have to listen for it. The pro with your piston/ oil is currently on my wife's Juliana, easy to hop on it for a bit 😎

  110. #4510
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    @CS645, can you share what her current settings are? What travel is the fork set to? What damper oil/wt did you put in it?

    thanks
    Just to be clear I run a Mattoc myself as well. Just that it doesn't confuse everyone.

    We both run it at 160mm. When we converted her's to pro/high flow piston I also switched damper oil from Motorex 2.5wt to the corex 5cst from Dougal. Before the conversion she ran about 28psi main and after about 2psi more (keep in mind women apart from their weight put less force through the handlebars).

    Regarding IRT setting's. I first started out with a 2.15 ratio but that was a bit too much. I than dropped more to 1.6 ratio based on recommendations here but that made the fork dive more and diminshed it's function too much. I think the currrent ratio is about 1.85.


    Today I'll be testing my own converted Mattoc for the first time. In the garage rebound seemed a bit quick but let's see on the trail.
    Last edited by CS645; 04-20-2019 at 06:30 AM.

  111. #4511
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Today I'll be tested my own converted Mattoc for the first time. In the garage rebound seemed a bit quick but let's see on the trail.
    The rebound shouldn't change with the high flow piston. So it may be worth checking the shims are sitting flat on the piston, the check shim spring shims are holding the check shim against the piston and it's all snugged up.

    Unless you've gone to the Corex 5 oil. In which case it will get faster.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  112. #4512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The rebound shouldn't change with the high flow piston. So it may be worth checking the shims are sitting flat on the piston, the check shim spring shims are holding the check shim against the piston and it's all snugged up.

    Unless you've gone to the Corex 5 oil. In which case it will get faster.
    Stayed on the 2.5wt for myself. Yeah I figured it should be something like that. My first ride wasn't conclusive today. But the trails near my house are pretty short and not that rough to be sure. Will try it out in more challenging terrain first.

    The improvement on the compression side is very clear though (although of course everything done in fresh slickhoney helps as well). I could up the LSC damping and the fork still felt less harsh than before with the expert configuration without high flow piston. More active/lively with less roughness yet plenty of control.

  113. #4513
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    What do people recommend as a substitute for m-prep? I read some threads that suggest many lubricants/ greases are formulate to be used to lubricate o rings and seals and anything like that should do the trick. Any suggestions?

  114. #4514
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    Slickoleum, slick honey or sram butter.

  115. #4515
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    I used slickoleum or sram butter.

  116. #4516
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    <Edited >

    Bike Discount DE has Mattoc Comp boost forks 50% off.

    27.5+/29er $340 https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...l-boost-801392

    27.5 $291 https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...l-boost-802112
    Last edited by jeffw-13; 04-22-2019 at 09:33 AM.
    No moss...

  117. #4517
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    I'm pretty sure those are comps based on the dampers.

  118. #4518
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdaniel93 View Post
    I'm pretty sure those are comps based on the dampers.
    Abs+ damper is definitely a mattoc comp.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  119. #4519
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    I'm only getting 7 clicks on my rebound damper. 2016 Magnum Pro. What's going on?

    Alsp don't really get full open on HSC. Barely an eight of a turn off position 1, rather than a full quarter. That or I'm not getting position 5

  120. #4520
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdaniel93 View Post
    I'm pretty sure those are comps based on the dampers.
    Ah, my bad. I thought the Dorado air spring was only available in the Pro. I didn't look any further than that. Edited my original post.
    Last edited by jeffw-13; 04-22-2019 at 09:34 AM.
    No moss...

  121. #4521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you had play in the top-right bushing, that has been sorted at production some time ago.
    But we've still got to mop up the forks out there with an issue. It only affects the 27" boost models and not all of them.
    Iím now on my 5th set of forks. Replaced 2x lowers and 2x whole fork. And the binding issue is still not solved. Currently there are already new scratch marks showing on the stantsions.
    Iím sick of this. Will see what they will do now. The last new fork I got, my local hayes dealer said he opened the fork an inspected it for particles before handing them over to me. But guess that didnít do it.
    Wondering if here in europe we have different lowers or old stocks?

  122. #4522
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    Iím now on my 5th set of forks. Replaced 2x lowers and 2x whole fork. And the binding issue is still not solved. Currently there are already new scratch marks showing on the stantsions.
    Iím sick of this. Will see what they will do now. The last new fork I got, my local hayes dealer said he opened the fork an inspected it for particles before handing them over to me. But guess that didnít do it.
    Wondering if here in europe we have different lowers or old stocks?
    That is insane. Have you emailed Hayes in America to to tell them this? It should never get to this point.

  123. #4523
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    I have the same experience. I am on my third fork. Bushing play and serious binding. Also from Europe. Manitou in Germany is handling warranty requests via local LBS, distibuter for Hayes.

    Lukam, when were your forks made? Forks that I received are all mattoc 3 boost, red, made in november 2017. I am trying to find if there is correlation between bad forks and production date. If it was one broken series, or are they scattered around.

  124. #4524
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    That is insane. Have you emailed Hayes in America to to tell them this? It should never get to this point.
    Yes a month ago I emailed [email protected] explaining everithing and got no answer.
    I got this fork now a year and a half and got just problems with it. First two times it was dealth with hayes EU tech center in germany and now two times here by our distributor.

    I dont get it. I have a friend whoose got the same problem...
    And my now 4 year old mattoc 1 is still hoing strong in my other bike.

  125. #4525
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    Quote Originally Posted by s-master View Post
    I have the same experience. I am on my third fork. Bushing play and serious binding. Also from Europe. Manitou in Germany is handling warranty requests via local LBS, distibuter for Hayes.

    Lukam, when were your forks made? Forks that I received are all mattoc 3 boost, red, made in november 2017. I am trying to find if there is correlation between bad forks and production date. If it was one broken series, or are they scattered around.
    I have a boost 27,5 black. As far as I can remember my last fork had a 18 on the lowers.

  126. #4526
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    I have a boost 27,5 black. As far as I can remember my last fork had a 18 on the lowers.
    That is a shame, so other forks are affected to..

  127. #4527
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    Yes a month ago I emailed [email protected] explaining everithing and got no answer.
    I got this fork now a year and a half and got just problems with it. First two times it was dealth with hayes EU tech center in germany and now two times here by our distributor.

    I dont get it. I have a friend whoose got the same problem...
    And my now 4 year old mattoc 1 is still hoing strong in my other bike.
    I sent you a pm

    This is an issue that has been solved, it shouldn't take 6 tries to fix it.

  128. #4528
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I sent you a pm

    This is an issue that has been solved, it shouldn't take 6 tries to fix it.
    You said about the Mara shock, that you are looking forward to explain what is going on the piggy bag, as soon as it is released in the press.

    Is there something similar coming in the mezzer fork or is it simply a slightly improved mattoc mc2 damper?
    Cheers

  129. #4529
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    I've got 3 EU Mattoc's and haven't had any problems with play or binding. Mine are mostly production date 2014. Although some received updates while being in stock.

  130. #4530
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I've got 3 EU Mattoc's and haven't had any problems with play or binding. Mine are mostly production date 2014. Although some received updates while being in stock.
    In this case, problatic mattocs are newer, boost versions. Non boost are OK, as far as I know.

  131. #4531
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    Quote Originally Posted by s-master View Post
    In this case, problatic mattocs are newer, boost versions. Non boost are OK, as far as I know.
    My CRC non Boost mattoc pro 2 had problems. Solved by Manitou in 2 weeks

  132. #4532
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  133. #4533
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    You said about the Mara shock, that you are looking forward to explain what is going on the piggy bag, as soon as it is released in the press.

    Is there something similar coming in the mezzer fork or is it simply a slightly improved mattoc mc2 damper?
    Cheers
    Find out in a few days

  134. #4534
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Find out in a few days
    OK, I think I have the power :-D

    But can you only say, when it will be available?
    Because I happen to be in need of a new 29er fork. Would be good to get it until June

  135. #4535
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    Mattoc Expert on sale for $335 at CRC, plus I think there is a coupon to get $20 off that. Better hurry! 27.5 with 160mm https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod115311

  136. #4536
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    Quote Originally Posted by bansaiman View Post
    OK, I think I have the power :-D

    But can you only say, when it will be available?
    Because I happen to be in need of a new 29er fork. Would be good to get it until June
    I do not know the answer to that question, but recent Hayes group history would lead one to think it will be available pretty quickly after being announced.

  137. #4537
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    Looks like the Mezzer has the low offset option a lot of folks are looking for. Any idea how the travel adjustment will be performed? Same special tools as the mattoc?

    https://manitoumtb.com/product/mezzer/?cat_id=23

  138. #4538
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    argh. I screwed up the install of my new High Flow Piston. I made it all they way through to reinstalling the rebound damper back into the tube. I mangled the PTFE glide ring on the inner threads.

    What did I do wrong?

    I took the glide ring off the stock piston and in doing so stretched that out too. Ah, par for the course when working on stuff myself.

    Any suggestions would be appreciated. I see that Dougal also sells just the PTFE glide rings. Is there a source in the US?

    Is there a trick for installing them that doesn't stretch them out.
    Last edited by ashwinearl; 05-04-2019 at 08:10 PM.

  139. #4539
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    argh. I screwed up the install of my new High Flow Piston. I made it all they way through to reinstalling the rebound damper back into the tube. I mangled the PTFE glide ring on the inner threads.

    What did I do wrong?

    I took the glide ring off the stock piston and in doing so stretched that out too. Ah, par for the course when working on stuff myself.

    Any suggestions would be appreciated. I see that Dougal also sells just the PTFE glide rings. Is there a source in the US?

    Is there a trick for installing them that doesn't stretch them out.
    Best thing to do right now is cut the stretched glide-ring off with a 45 degree cut. Then trim a section out on the same 45 degrees so it goes back in and the ends touch to seal.

    Best way to install them is heat and creep them on from one side around.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  140. #4540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The 20psi split is just the starting point for IRT tuning. From there most people are in the range of 1.5-2x pressure difference.
    I used to run 40/60psi. Now I'm at 40/80.
    thought I'd check mine. 160mm travel 60/110psi compression all open. 77kg naked.

  141. #4541
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    Was this spacer on the bottom of the rebound damper added to newer forks compared to the early models? This is taken from a 2017 I got from CRC last year. I have an older one that doesn't have it.

    The older one was used so don't know if it is missing or it just never had it.
    Last edited by ashwinearl; 05-05-2019 at 09:43 PM.

  142. #4542
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Stayed on the 2.5wt for myself. Yeah I figured it should be something like that. My first ride wasn't conclusive today. But the trails near my house are pretty short and not that rough to be sure. Will try it out in more challenging terrain first.

    The improvement on the compression side is very clear though (although of course everything done in fresh slickhoney helps as well). I could up the LSC damping and the fork still felt less harsh than before with the expert configuration without high flow piston. More active/lively with less roughness yet plenty of control.
    Did you figure out the issue with the rebound when you put in the new high flow piston? I just put my new high flow in. It felt very bouncy. To get a controlled frequency, I was at way lower pressure than previously.

    This is at 140mm travel, I am 140lbs. This is a completely new fork compared to an older 2016 model too. So I don't know how much more supple the new one is. But I went from 31 main spring/62 IRT, 2 clicks rebound to like 25/50, and it 3 clicks and it still felt fast. Both have Motorex 2.5wt oil

  143. #4543
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    Did you figure out the issue with the rebound when you put in the new high flow piston? I just put my new high flow in. It felt very bouncy. To get a controlled frequency, I was at way lower pressure than previously.

    This is at 140mm travel, I am 140lbs. This is a completely new fork compared to an older 2016 model too. So I don't know how much more supple the new one is. But I went from 31 main spring/62 IRT, 2 clicks rebound to like 25/50, and it 3 clicks and it still felt fast. Both have Motorex 2.5wt oil
    Sounds like a check shim isn't sealing properly and letting oil back through.

    Rebound is unchanged from stock if you've got it together properly.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  144. #4544
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    All right, more questions. (curse you Manitou for making products the encourage tinkering...)

    I've got both forks open and comparing the rebound dampers to each other. The new one was feeling notchy which I chalked up to messing up the glide ring some. However, in more checking and comparing it is very notchy/sticky where the rod moves through the cap.

    here is a direct link to Imgur in case the linked image isn't showing:
    https://i.imgur.com/CJVDE9O.jpg


    It is a significant difference to the other rebound damper from the older fork. Any suggestions to address this issue too?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mattoc-img_20190506_204423v3.jpg  

    Last edited by ashwinearl; 05-07-2019 at 03:11 AM.

  145. #4545
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    The direct link is broken, so the linked image isn't showing
    Does you fork feel notchy? Or you just comparing damper shafts dry? One might be already worn in (talking about the piston seal), so lower friction, while the other is yet not, also the new one might have an oring(?) on the piston shaft to prevent semi bath oil from migrating, but I doubt that.

  146. #4546
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    Other possibility is that you messed up the lower seal when reinserting whatever you disassembled (sorry, not paying attention) so it's either cut a little or twisted, and that might give you additional friction.

  147. #4547
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    I uploaded the pic direct to MTBR too. Yes. One is brand new out of the box, the other is an older fork that I have ridden and got used.

    The rod does have play compared to each other, so one might just not be broken in.

  148. #4548
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    Is there anywhere I can get the updated air piston for my Mattoc? It seems to be letting some air to the negative chamber (every month or so it's stuck 5mm)so while I'm at it I might as well get the improved thing.
    Waiting for the low friction seals, together it would make my fork the new spec, all I'd need then is an IRT, which I'm keeping an eye for already

  149. #4549
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    Is there anywhere I can get the updated air piston for my Mattoc? It seems to be letting some air to the negative chamber (every month or so it's stuck 5mm)so while I'm at it I might as well get the improved thing.
    Waiting for the low friction seals, together it would make my fork the new spec, all I'd need then is an IRT, which I'm keeping an eye for already
    You may just need a new quad-ring. But here're the details for the updated piston: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-...t-manitou.html
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  150. #4550
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    Holy crap that's expensive
    I'd rather get the IRT for. that money.
    I think I'll pass, I have a good store with seals nearby so I'm good on that.

  151. #4551
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    Holy crap that's expensive
    I'd rather get the IRT for. that money.
    I think I'll pass, I have a good store with seals nearby so I'm good on that.
    That price is in NZD and has NZ tax built it that international buyers don't have to pay, so actual price is quite a bit lower. I would just get a new quad ring though.

  152. #4552
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    Holy crap that's expensive
    I'd rather get the IRT for. that money.
    I think I'll pass, I have a good store with seals nearby so I'm good on that.
    As Mullen said that's a different currency. It's $US42. IRT is a different thing.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  153. #4553
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    The new fender seen on the Mezzer that extends front and rear of the arch... is that compatible with the existing Mattoc Boost models, and will it be available separately?

  154. #4554
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    The fender is/will be available separately, but I'm not sure about it fitting.

  155. #4555
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn View Post
    The new fender seen on the Mezzer that extends front and rear of the arch... is that compatible with the existing Mattoc Boost models, and will it be available separately?
    Yes and yes: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-...9-manitou.html

    Not sure why I haven't got a pic up on the listing, but here it is bolted on: https://www.instagram.com/p/BvsQjPbnoO4/

    Same mudguard for Mezzer, Mattoc Boost and J-unit. Basically all the new Boost forks fit it.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  156. #4556
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    I dont know why but just changed again from coil to air spring with IRT and it feels pretty good. So surprised. Im 68kg, 40/100psi at 160mm, 25% sag with full open rebound. Have no idea why until now I couldnt dial air spring with proper initial sensitivity and bottom out resistance. This time no supergliss in lowers. Just fork oil around [email protected] Also another air piston, cuz scratched shaft and couldnt get it separately.

    Dougal, any chance that previous piston was just too tight? Anyway it was updated one.

    PS I have to find and delete all my posts about no sensivity in mattoc

  157. #4557
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    Putting rebound damper back together in correct order

    Is there a correct orientation for the high flow piston


    one side has an indentation as shown the other doesn't. Does it matter which side goes towards the HBO cone and which side goes towards the damper cap?

    Does anyone of an exploded view of the rebound damper shims, spring shims. I am worried I am not putting it back together correctly.

  158. #4558
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    Yes there definitely is, you want the compression stroke to be the way of least resistance, aka the larger ports are facing down (closed by the check plate on rebount stroke)
    You'll figure it out once you're inside- just install it like the old one was.

  159. #4559
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    But I have to ask, does the high flow piston even do anything on the pro version? I think the Expert could benefit from one, but Pro is moving so little oil in comparison, I don't see or feel why it would be needed, I'm hitting quite large obstacles and there are no signs of any sort of choking.

  160. #4560
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    I don't know yet, because I haven't installed mine correctly. But I do know there is some harshness on sharp, square edged roots. I am 140lbs and running at 140mm travel with pretty low air pressure.

    I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.

  161. #4561
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.
    Is that heavy pedaling standing up? Bobbing would be dealt with LSC, which of course won't necessarily help with a root. I've come round to using more LSC and HSC to keep the fork higher at a cost of suppleness, it's more important for me to keep the bike in the right spot rather than having a super comfortable ride.

    As always my riding is 90% climbing and flat to get to the parts I want to have fun on. So my setup needs to be for the 10% rather than the 90% I actually spend on the bike.

    Having said that, on the Mattoc it's pretty easy to reach down and open the LSC for the boring bits to make it more compliant.

  162. #4562
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    I dont know why but just changed again from coil to air spring with IRT and it feels pretty good. So surprised. Im 68kg, 40/100psi at 160mm, 25% sag with full open rebound. Have no idea why until now I couldnt dial air spring with proper initial sensitivity and bottom out resistance. This time no supergliss in lowers. Just fork oil around [email protected] Also another air piston, cuz scratched shaft and couldnt get it separately.

    Dougal, any chance that previous piston was just too tight? Anyway it was updated one.

    PS I have to find and delete all my posts about no sensivity in mattoc
    40/100 is pretty good. I'm at 40/80psi and that's working well. I am riding significantly faster and more aggressively than I was when I first got on these forks.

    Excess friction anywhere can ruin your suspension.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    Is there a correct orientation for the high flow piston


    one side has an indentation as shown the other doesn't. Does it matter which side goes towards the HBO cone and which side goes towards the damper cap?

    Does anyone of an exploded view of the rebound damper shims, spring shims. I am worried I am not putting it back together correctly.
    Recess down (as it would be ridden). It will all make sense once you're in.

    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    But I have to ask, does the high flow piston even do anything on the pro version? I think the Expert could benefit from one, but Pro is moving so little oil in comparison, I don't see or feel why it would be needed, I'm hitting quite large obstacles and there are no signs of any sort of choking.
    The best way to improve the Expert is to upgrade to the Pro damper. Once you have the Pro damper the high flow piston takes you to the top of the pack.

    You won't notice it much on large bumps. But you will on sharp stuff at speed. It's not Pike style choking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    I don't know yet, because I haven't installed mine correctly. But I do know there is some harshness on sharp, square edged roots. I am 140lbs and running at 140mm travel with pretty low air pressure.

    I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.
    Are you running iRT? What pressures? Lowest you should probably be is 35/55psi and on upwards from there.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  163. #4563
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    I don't know yet, because I haven't installed mine correctly. But I do know there is some harshness on sharp, square edged roots. I am 140lbs and running at 140mm travel with pretty low air pressure.
    That's pretty interresting, as I'm also a light rider, at 55kg (120lbs) and not only do I not find any harshness, I often add 1-2 clicks of high speed damping, depending on how rough the terrain/ how big the features are. The low speed damping lever remains pretty much untouched, I did try it on some long smooth climbs, just to see it make no difference at all, as I'm always seated in such occasions, and when sprinting standing I'm smooth enough+ my bike is reasonably slack @66į that it doesn't Bob much anyway.
    My fork is @140mm with 40psi at just under 20% sag standing with 4 IVA tokens to have at least some progression, I'd definitely benefit from IRT cause at those settings the fork doesn't really soak up any small bumps at low speed, I don't have the funds just yet.
    3 clicks of HBO works perfect, 0,5 and 1,5 meter drops to flat feel the same (apart from the latter bottoming out my shock)
    Imo this fork really does open up at higher speed and/or with larger features, for just cruising or casual riding I think that a RS with debonair would be better, but I haven't received the low friction seal yet.

    You should provide more specific information, as in how much sag at how much pressure you're running, do you have low friction seals, are you an aggressive rider, what do you mean by harshness exactly, what damper settings you are using?

  164. #4564
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    For those of you in the States, where are you sourcing your Mattocs? I was looking for a Mattoc Pro 29 120 (extendable to 140) and cannot find any. Only see a handful of the 27.5 version.

  165. #4565
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    Quote Originally Posted by aski View Post
    For those of you in the States, where are you sourcing your Mattocs? I was looking for a Mattoc Pro 29 120 (extendable to 140) and cannot find any. Only see a handful of the 27.5 version.
    I bought mine from Chain reaction cycles. Was pretty cheap.

  166. #4566
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    I'm struggling to balance air spring pressure with harshness on square edged hits and minimizing bobbing under heavy pedaling. I am hoping to get the advertised benefits of the high flow piston of 'unharshing' the roots, while still allowing me to run lower speed compression.
    Do you change your LSC setting during a ride?

    I have an oversimplified tuning theory for Mattoc and served me well if I change setting depending on what kind of trail I am riding. The theory is the following:

    1. Main chamber for small bump sensitivity, lower the better
    2. IRT ratio and LSC for mid-stroke support and body movement. Higher the ratio or more LSR damping, more support and better resistance to bob.
    3. HBO for bottom out resistance
    4. HSC for the feeling on big landing. Less HSC damping uses travel faster but less harshness.

    My process is the following.
    1. Leave LSC, HSC fully open. LSR on the fast side such that when pushing bar down quickly, front wheel just leaves ground a little bit. Then go down a rock garden to test the main chamber. The pressure should be just low enough for the rock garden to disappear but not too low.

    2. I will start with 2x ratio for IRT, with maybe 1 or 2 click more LSR damping, then go down successive hits like roots. If the hits feel harsh, I will lower the IRT pressure until it feels comfortable. This will be my typical trail setting, and maybe play the LSC/HSC a click here and there to try, but definitely on the open side.

    3. Fully close LSC, fully close HBO then go try it on a jump trail. Use the HSC to dial the feeling of landing. The LSR should be slow enough that not bouncing you off bike when hitting a ramping takeoff fast. This is my flow trail setting. Again, I may open the LSC/HSC a click here and there depending on the trail I am riding.

    These are all talking about going down. When climbing, I always fully close my LSC to fight the bob while standing but it is not a lockout. Fully closed LSC helps the body and bike to stay in harmony.

  167. #4567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Are you running iRT? What pressures? Lowest you should probably be is 35/55psi and on upwards from there.
    I have the IRT. Fork is set at 140mm, head angle is 68degrees, I am 140lbs. I've been around 30-32 main spring, 55-60 IRT, HSC+1 to +2, LSC +4. HBO several clicks in, varies. I am going to up to 35psi main, 64IRT.

    I had been going lower in the main spring trying to tune for frequency. I don't have a good feel for the method yet, but was having the impression that the fork was returning too quickly. Last year, I was running higher 40+psi in the main spring, and I had to turn in my rebound. I was advised to go lower as the higher air was causing bucking which I needed the rebound to control.

  168. #4568
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinearl View Post
    I have the IRT. Fork is set at 140mm, head angle is 68degrees, I am 140lbs. I've been around 30-32 main spring, 55-60 IRT, HSC+1 to +2, LSC +4. HBO several clicks in, varies. I am going to up to 35psi main, 64IRT.

    I had been going lower in the main spring trying to tune for frequency. I don't have a good feel for the method yet, but was having the impression that the fork was returning too quickly. Last year, I was running higher 40+psi in the main spring, and I had to turn in my rebound. I was advised to go lower as the higher air was causing bucking which I needed the rebound to control.
    I tune air pressure with the rebound wide open. So if it bucks you can tell without it being masked by slow rebound.

    HSC and LSC work together, you won't notice the effect of more HSC if you run LSC wide open until it's a very sharp hit. Because the LSC ports are quite large.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  169. #4569
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    What do you guys think of my creation? A plastic tube instead of 2 spacers, giving a little bit more negative chamber volume. Does it make sense? Wondering how much larger the new Mezzer negative chamber is, if we can technically upgrade our Mattocs in some way

  170. #4570
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    Hi all I've searched the thread but can't find the answer.

    I've just realised I can't turn my HSC and HBO adjusters on my Mattoc Pro 2, the LSC and rebound all work fine, I've loosened the small hex bolt on top, taken the HBO adjuster off and cleaned some dirt out, but this still doesn't help.

    I service the fork myself, have I done something wrong to the compression assembly?

    Please help!

  171. #4571
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    Has the HBO adjuster been on the extreme end for a long time? I've had this happen on a NOS Mattoc (4 years old at time of purchase). After using a mentally uncomfortable amount of force, the HBO adjuster jumped loose and has been fine since.
    Maybe Dougal has some advice on how to loosen a stuck HBO adjuster from the inside?

  172. #4572
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    With the knobs removed, try to turn it using a corresponding sized wrench, it would be best if you knew at which extreme its locked first, but if you use some common sense- you shouldn't break anything.

  173. #4573
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    Thanks guys I've sorted it, I just wasn't turning them hard enough lol They get pretty stiff when you don't use them for a while. Turns out I was on max HSC which explains why my fork felt weird on Sunday....

  174. #4574
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    Man these low friction seals make a huge difference, I was really sceptical when someone said they give you 3 clicks faster rebound... Well, it's totally true! Testing by hand they give 2 times less friction than the standard 2 piece seals, on the fork I used to run minus 2 licks of rebound (2 less than factory allows, I made some modifications) now I'm running one click in for a little bit faster rebound! That's +3 clicks more than before!
    As for small bump compliance it's obviously improved, by a lot, but it's not really a fair comparison as the grease hasn't worn out yet, also I increased the negative chamber volume a little bit, surprisingly it did make some difference- while before @40psi I had 30mm of sag, now it jumped to 40mm, with similar bottom out resistance, I quite like that! Will probably increase the pressure and take out some IVA spacers to compensate though, which should give me better support and compliance for the gnarly stuff
    I need to get a Debonair RS to compare against again, I don't think this that sort of level of small bump compliance yet, but it should be quite close.
    @edit ended up increasing the pressure by 5psi, now have exactly 30mm of sag, and using 85% of travel when pushing hard on flat ground, will adjust it down to 40 when I go ride some proper gnar, for local relatively smooth jump trails this should be perfect
    Last edited by piciu256; 05-17-2019 at 05:44 AM. Reason: New info

  175. #4575
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    Quote Originally Posted by piciu256 View Post
    I increased the negative chamber volume a little bit
    how did you increase negative volume?

  176. #4576
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    Looking at post 4569, he used a hollow tube instead of the solid travel adjustment spacers in the negative chamber. So there is a little extra volume of the air inside the tube. Assuming the air has a way to get in and out of there.

    What happens if that tube breaks during a ride?
    Stache 7 --- Rigid Surly 1x1 B+ --- Dirt Drop CrossCheck

  177. #4577
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    It wont break, the tube is there just to set the lenght at full extension while pumping up, there is very little pressure acting at it, and it's 3mm thick thermal plastic It is 1mm larger than the diameter of the air shaft, since I didn't have a 10mm ID tube, and air can get in there no problem as the end is not cut perfectly flat (that's intentional) so there is a gap, the spacers are hollow too really, but they have more material because they are the diameter of the whole air chamber, so there is quite a bit of "not needed" material, they are so big just because you are supposed to clip them on really, since the tube is surrounding the whole shaft without cutouts, it's stronger than spacers so doesn't need as material.

  178. #4578
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    Hi folks,

    So glad I found this thread! There is such good info here. Has anyone made a summary document? 46 long pages... Whew!

    Anyway, I've got a Mattoc Pro boost that I purchased online. I needed a 150mm fork for my frame so I sized it down as soon as I got it. After installing it on the bike I noticed that I could only ever get about 120 or 130mm of compression. I measured the stanchion and was concerned to find almost exactly 150mm showing. Surely the fork doesn't compress until the crown collides with the seals. I reached out to Manitou tech support to tell them something was wrong. At first, the support technician told me Manitou forks were not designed for the stanchion to touch the seals during compression. I told them there must be something wrong then. I tried to take the fork apart again and noticed that there wasn't even 150mm of compression rod between the spacers and the bumper, so it was impossible to get 150mm. I sent in pictures. The technician told me that he couldn't see anything was wrong, but if I sent the fork in they would service it. They sent it back to me telling me nothing was wrong - with about 149mm of stanchion. I've complained again and asked them what the measurement should be, but they won't answer. They've just said I can send it in again if I want. So frustrating! And such a waste of my time, especially now that I've read this thread and found that the forks really don't get the advertised travel.

    Anyway, all that to say I really don't want to deal with tech support again, but I seem to have another problem: the fork isn't moving through its travel smoothly. I can put a fair amount of weight on the bars and the fork doesn't compress at all. When I add enough weight it moves suddenly down a couple of centimeters. This doesn't seem to make a difference with big hits when riding, but the small bump sensitivity is terrible! Any ideas what's going on?

    Rider weight = 150 lbs
    IRT = 60psi
    Main = ~30psi

  179. #4579
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrowning89 View Post
    Hi folks,

    So glad I found this thread! There is such good info here. Has anyone made a summary document? 46 long pages... Whew!

    Anyway, I've got a Mattoc Pro boost that I purchased online. I needed a 150mm fork for my frame so I sized it down as soon as I got it. After installing it on the bike I noticed that I could only ever get about 120 or 130mm of compression. I measured the stanchion and was concerned to find almost exactly 150mm showing. Surely the fork doesn't compress until the crown collides with the seals. I reached out to Manitou tech support to tell them something was wrong. At first, the support technician told me Manitou forks were not designed for the stanchion to touch the seals during compression. I told them there must be something wrong then. I tried to take the fork apart again and noticed that there wasn't even 150mm of compression rod between the spacers and the bumper, so it was impossible to get 150mm. I sent in pictures. The technician told me that he couldn't see anything was wrong, but if I sent the fork in they would service it. They sent it back to me telling me nothing was wrong - with about 149mm of stanchion. I've complained again and asked them what the measurement should be, but they won't answer. They've just said I can send it in again if I want. So frustrating! And such a waste of my time, especially now that I've read this thread and found that the forks really don't get the advertised travel.

    Anyway, all that to say I really don't want to deal with tech support again, but I seem to have another problem: the fork isn't moving through its travel smoothly. I can put a fair amount of weight on the bars and the fork doesn't compress at all. When I add enough weight it moves suddenly down a couple of centimeters. This doesn't seem to make a difference with big hits when riding, but the small bump sensitivity is terrible! Any ideas what's going on?

    Rider weight = 150 lbs
    IRT = 60psi
    Main = ~30psi
    Did you fully extend it while the pump was connected?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  180. #4580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Did you fully extend it while the pump was connected?
    Yeah, I've figured out now that I really need to pull while I detach the pump. So that problem is solved I think.

    I'm now concerned about the un-smooth action of the fork.

  181. #4581
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrowning89 View Post
    Yeah, I've figured out now that I really need to pull while I detach the pump. So that problem is solved I think.

    I'm now concerned about the un-smooth action of the fork.
    Take the lower legs off, grease the top bushings and seals with slickoleum. That'll keep it sliding smoothly until the oil works it's way up during riding.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  182. #4582
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    27.5+ Fender

    Does anyone know if the 27.5+ fork ships with the fender or is it just the 27.5 boost fork that has it? Just bought one from Chain Reaction and they don't list the 27.5+ as including a fender and they never answered my question about it.

  183. #4583
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdaniel93 View Post
    Does anyone know if the 27.5+ fork ships with the fender or is it just the 27.5 boost fork that has it? Just bought one from Chain Reaction and they don't list the 27.5+ as including a fender and they never answered my question about it.
    I bought a 27.5+ a few weeks ago and it did not come with a fender.

  184. #4584
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowTri View Post
    I bought a 27.5+ a few weeks ago and it did not come with a fender.
    Does it have the drill holes to mount one?

  185. #4585
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    ... the Mattoc 3 Pro 27.5+/29 version doesnīt come with the fender and there are no holes for a fender. I think this version isnīt a Mattoc but the Magnum. First I thought Iīve gotten an old version but Hayes (Germany) told me thatīs the right version.

  186. #4586
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    yeah CRC is horrible with claiming their forks are one thing and shipping another.

  187. #4587
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdaniel93 View Post
    Does anyone know if the 27.5+ fork ships with the fender or is it just the 27.5 boost fork that has it? Just bought one from Chain Reaction and they don't list the 27.5+ as including a fender and they never answered my question about it.
    The only Mattoc which takes a mudguard is the 27" Boost (not plus) and they come with them. The 27 non boost, 27+ and 29+ lower leg castings all pre-date the mud-guard design.

    The new forks which fit mudguards are the J-Unit Machete (20" and 24") and the new Mezzer.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  188. #4588
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    Iím sure itís been discussed but didnít see it with a quick search. Does a 29x2.5 fit in the 27.5+ fork? One like this:
    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...BoCFT8QAvD_BwE

  189. #4589
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Iím sure itís been discussed but didnít see it with a quick search. Does a 29x2.5 fit in the 27.5+ fork? One like this:
    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...BoCFT8QAvD_BwE
    Firstly none of the specs in that listing make sense. The photo is the non-boost 27" Mattoc. Not a 27+. 27+ was not made in red unless it was an OEM order. The listed offset, travel and axle-crown match the non-boost forks.

    Officially you're allowed 742mm and 87mm width. Brace clearance is 13mm.
    That gives you a theoretical 2.35" tyre height.

    Measure and see. In larger tyre sizes there is a lot of BS between what's printed on the sidewall and how they measure out. There are also plenty of people running tyres bigger than Manitou's recommendations in other forks with no issues.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  190. #4590
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    Thanks! So the latest 27+ boost fork with 44mm offset can run 29x2.35, generally? Is there somewhere that usually has good deals on these? Trying to help a friend build his first enduro bike.

  191. #4591
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Thanks! So the latest 27+ boost fork with 44mm offset can run 29x2.35, generally? Is there somewhere that usually has good deals on these? Trying to help a friend build his first enduro bike.
    There was only one 27+ fork (well 2 if you count comp and pro versions). 48mm offset and 742mm OD (29.2").

    It's worth measuring tyre OD.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  192. #4592
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMtnSlayer View Post
    Thanks! So the latest 27+ boost fork with 44mm offset can run 29x2.35, generally? Is there somewhere that usually has good deals on these? Trying to help a friend build his first enduro bike.
    Not sure of others experience with CRC but generally speaking they're pretty incompetent so buyer beware if you go through them. I ordered a pro back in March from them that turned out to be a comp, doesn't matter though because they sent me carbon road wheels instead of a fork on accident and it took them over a month to process my return after shipping it back. I just bought a 27.5+ pro from them earlier in the week and when it arrived yesterday of course it's a 120mm 27.5 boost comp model. So now I get to go back through the same process of returning the wrong item to them.

  193. #4593
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    Good luck guys. Lots of great info. I ended up getting a smoking deal on a 2016 fox 34 factory so I'm out. Manitou makes great products and I'm sure you'll all do well with them. Peace.

  194. #4594
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    I got lucky with my Pro 2 from CRC, but I was also eyeballing that Mattoc Pro Plus. Didn't know about the colors but looked on Manitou's site, and no 44mm offset 27.5+/29 fork. Only 48mm offset. So yeah they're gonna screw you.

    Ripley v4 is a 44mm offset design. Will a 48mm offset fork make that much of a difference? I'd rather stick with Mattoc vs Pike/Fox.

  195. #4595
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    Everyone has their own opinion, but for me, going from 51mm offset to 42mm created a better weight distribution balance. I donít have to think about leaning forward and weighting the front wheel as much. Itís really helpful in those moments when youíre riding fast and a little off balance. Iím the type of rider that mostly doesnít crash but when I do itís a nasty low side from loosing the front wheel. Iíve broken both my hands multiple times... seems like the Mezzer is a better option if you want a short offset 29r. But I clearly donít have a thorough understanding of the Mattoc options.

  196. #4596
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    I lost the air cap for the mattoc. It's just a schrader cap right? I can just get a cheapo tire cap and put it on?

  197. #4597
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    I lost the air cap for the mattoc. It's just a schrader cap right? I can just get a cheapo tire cap and put it on?
    Bottom or top?

    Both are schrader, but the bottom you'll need one with a big enough gasket that it doesn't depress the plunger rod in the middle.

    Mattoc offset is 41mm for the 26" non-boost, 44mm for all 27" (boost and non boost), 48mm for 27+ and 51mm for 29+.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  198. #4598
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    Bottom. Damnit I have to buy the full kit don't I.

    By gasket do you mean it's deep enough so when I tighten it, the plunger rod isn't depressed?

  199. #4599
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Bottom. Damnit I have to buy the full kit don't I.

    By gasket do you mean it's deep enough so when I tighten it, the plunger rod isn't depressed?
    Yes and yes: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/magnum-...t-manitou.html
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  200. #4600
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    Ok then, I guess I'm going to have to comb the garage looking for it.

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