Manitou Mattoc - Page 21- Mtbr.com
Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 11171819202122232425 LastLast
Results 4,001 to 4,200 of 4823

Thread: Manitou Mattoc

  1. #4001
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,833
    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Thats most definitely full travel! Plus some. lol.
    Yeah. I have that same bike but with a black mattoc

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  2. #4002
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,751
    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    Thats most definitely full travel! Plus some. lol.
    And he got all of the tire squish there as well!
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  3. #4003
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ColinL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,771
    Wow. Might be time to add another click or two of HBO!

  4. #4004
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Wow. Might be time to add another click or two of HBO!
    Yeah! I was surprised by the pic. I'd be curious to hear other people's set-ups for bike-park riding. After this I did bump up the IRT pressure and HBO (and rear shock and both tires). My "post-picture" setup is--

    Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear)
    Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm
    Main air spring: 35 lbs
    IRT: 90 lbs
    HBO: +3 clicks from open
    LSC: open
    HSC: open
    Rebound: +1 click from open
    (2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front)

    I find this setup a bit harsh on braking bumps--I need to do more experimenting.

    Entered my first enduro this weekend at Mammoth bike park (California Enduro Series round 6)--11th out of 28 starters in Beginner Men. I rode pretty well relative to my skill level, and had a lot of fun.

  5. #4005
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Yeah! I was surprised by the pic. I'd be curious to hear other people's set-ups for bike-park riding. After this I did bump up the IRT pressure and HBO (and rear shock and both tires). My "post-picture" setup is--

    Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear)
    Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm
    Main air spring: 35 lbs
    IRT: 90 lbs
    HBO: +3 clicks from open
    LSC: open
    HSC: open
    Rebound: +1 click from open
    (2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front)

    I find this setup a bit harsh on braking bumps--I need to do more experimenting.

    Entered my first enduro this weekend at Mammoth bike park (California Enduro Series round 6)--11th out of 28 starters in Beginner Men. I rode pretty well relative to my skill level, and had a lot of fun.
    I'd say less rebound damping, especially if you ride faster. Also note that adding HBO increase overall compression damping. Interesting that I have similar main to IRT pressure ratio.

  6. #4006
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    97
    Why would HBO increase compresion overall?
    Afaik it only affects last 3cm of travel or so.

  7. #4007
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Yeah! I was surprised by the pic. I'd be curious to hear other people's set-ups for bike-park riding. After this I did bump up the IRT pressure and HBO (and rear shock and both tires). My "post-picture" setup is--

    Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear)
    Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm
    Main air spring: 35 lbs
    IRT: 90 lbs
    HBO: +3 clicks from open
    LSC: open
    HSC: open
    Rebound: +1 click from open
    (2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front)

    I find this setup a bit harsh on braking bumps--I need to do more experimenting.

    Entered my first enduro this weekend at Mammoth bike park (California Enduro Series round 6)--11th out of 28 starters in Beginner Men. I rode pretty well relative to my skill level, and had a lot of fun.
    That's a big split with IRT. Here my are settings beside yours. I'm a bit heavier but bike is slacker so front end weight is likely similar.

    Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear) 160lb
    Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm Pro Boost 170mm with high flow piston.
    Main air spring: 35 lbs 40psi normal, 45psi for chairlift.
    IRT: 90 lbs 60psi normal, 65psi for chairlift
    HBO: +3 clicks from open closed
    LSC: open closed
    HSC: open open
    Rebound: +1 click from open 3 clicks from open (5 clicks from closed)
    (2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front) 2.6" DHF front 25psi.

    I don't jump much. I have the fork setup to eat as much mid-stroke roughness as possible and use HBO to take out the big stuff.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  8. #4008
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    168
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    Do yourself a favor and buy the SL axle.
    What's the benefit? I have no issue with the QR15 on both my Mattocs....

  9. #4009
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That's a big split with IRT. Here my are settings beside yours. I'm a bit heavier but bike is slacker so front end weight is likely similar.

    Rider weight: 140 lbs (without gear) 160lb
    Mattoc Pro I 27.5" @ 160mm Pro Boost 170mm with high flow piston.
    Main air spring: 35 lbs 40psi normal, 45psi for chairlift.
    IRT: 90 lbs 60psi normal, 65psi for chairlift
    HBO: +3 clicks from open closed
    LSC: open closed
    HSC: open open
    Rebound: +1 click from open 3 clicks from open (5 clicks from closed)
    (2.5" Exo WT tires @ 19 psi rear, 17 psi front) 2.6" DHF front 25psi.

    I don't jump much. I have the fork setup to eat as much mid-stroke roughness as possible and use HBO to take out the big stuff.
    Thanks, Dougal! I will play with the knobs, especially where my settings are so different from yours. I kept the main psi at my "trail" pressure and added IRT and HBO based on the o-ring--that's how I ended up with such a big main/IRT gap.

    2 questions for you:

    1. Your closed LSC--that must be possible because of your magic piston? That sounds harsh with a stock piston--or do I misunderstand how LSC works?

    2. My tire pressure is really low vs. yours (and other people's). More air feels harsher to me. Besides pinch flats (I do get them), am I penalized for going so low? I can't feel the tire rolling onto the sidewall, but it must be happening. Is it slowing me down?

  10. #4010
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    97
    1.
    Closed LSC doesn't necessarily mean harsh ride, because LSC and HSC are not really independend it a sense how they influence the damping curve.

    If LSC is closed (LSC port closed) and HSC is open (no or minimal preload on shim stack), all the oil will flow trough HSC shim stack. That means, that closed LSC (if HSC open) doesn't really have a lot of effect. There will not be a lot of low speed damping, but there will be verry small platform, but once the shims open, there won't be a lot of damping.

    2.
    I also like low tyre presure. I am 72kg (around 159 lbs) without gear. I use 19-20psi in the front and 22-23psi in the back, 2.3 - 2.35 inch on 27.5". If you are getting a lot of pinch flats, you should go tubeless. But if you are striking the rim very hard (visible dents), you will have to increase a tyre presure.

  11. #4011
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by s-master View Post
    If LSC is closed (LSC port closed) and HSC is open (no or minimal preload on shim stack), all the oil will flow trough HSC shim stack. That means, that closed LSC (if HSC open) doesn't really have a lot of effect.
    Oh, right--that makes sense!


    I also like low tyre presure. I am 72kg (around 159 lbs) without gear. I use 19-20psi in the front and 22-23psi in the back, 2.3 - 2.35 inch on 27.5". If you are getting a lot of pinch flats, you should go tubeless. But if you are striking the rim very hard (visible dents), you will have to increase a tyre presure.
    I should have clarified, it's tubeless--those are "tire" pinch flats, not "tube" pinch flats. But the rim is not getting particularly dented. Glad to hear I'm not the only one running this low.

  12. #4012
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Oh, right--that makes sense!




    I should have clarified, it's tubeless--those are "tire" pinch flats, not "tube" pinch flats. But the rim is not getting particularly dented. Glad to hear I'm not the only one running this low.
    Just a fyi for everybody, HBO will not change total travel used. The HBO circuit is speed sensitive, and meant to slow the last little bit of travel. Once the shaft speeds slow, the HBO circuit loses its damping effect. The idea is to keep riders from slamming into the bottom out bumper on hard hits, which allows for riders to not need an excessively progressive spring that will wallow.

  13. #4013
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Just a fyi for everybody, HBO will not change total travel used. The HBO circuit is speed sensitive, and meant to slow the last little bit of travel. Once the shaft speeds slow, the HBO circuit loses its damping effect. The idea is to keep riders from slamming into the bottom out bumper on hard hits, which allows for riders to not need an excessively progressive spring that will wallow.
    I'm confused--I understand that it has no effect prior to the last 30mm of travel, and I understand that it only comes into play at high shaft speeds, but during a big hit, shouldn't it have a pronounced effect on travel in that last 30mm? The fork compresses, the HBO rod thingy inhibits oil flow, the damper shaft slows down faster, and uses less travel as a result. No?
    Last edited by phile; 09-27-2018 at 11:52 AM. Reason: reworded

  14. #4014
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    I'm confused--I understand that it has no effect prior to the last 30mm of travel, and I understand that it only comes into play at high shaft speeds, but during a big hit, shouldn't it have a pronounced effect on travel in that last 30mm?
    It has a pronounced effect on how the last 30mm feels, but it doesnt keep you from using full travel because its effect diminishes as it works. Shaft speeds slow down, its overall effect lessens, you use full travel (assuming the hit has enough force to require full travel)

  15. #4015
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    It has a pronounced effect on how the last 30mm feels, but it doesnt keep you from using full travel because its effect diminishes as it works. Shaft speeds slow down, its overall effect lessens, you use full travel (assuming the hit has enough force to require full travel)
    I may be thinking about compression damping 100% wrong. I'd have thought that compression damping affects travel, because the dynamic "hit" gets passed along to your body when the fork resists compressing--the impact doesn't keep exerting force on the suspension until you've reached the same amount of travel.

    Same with low-speed compression--if you increase the damping, the suspension doesn't bob when you pedal. That "not bobbing" is because it's using less travel. Right?

  16. #4016
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Thanks, Dougal! I will play with the knobs, especially where my settings are so different from yours. I kept the main psi at my "trail" pressure and added IRT and HBO based on the o-ring--that's how I ended up with such a big main/IRT gap.

    2 questions for you:

    1. Your closed LSC--that must be possible because of your magic piston? That sounds harsh with a stock piston--or do I misunderstand how LSC works?

    2. My tire pressure is really low vs. yours (and other people's). More air feels harsher to me. Besides pinch flats (I do get them), am I penalized for going so low? I can't feel the tire rolling onto the sidewall, but it must be happening. Is it slowing me down?
    Yes the high flow piston reduces high speed damping. So you can run more LSC without harshness. The closed LSC gives more damping and control across the speed range.

    When you have the suspension sorted a firm tyre will not be a problem. I have to run firm tyres as I ride rocky trails which destroy rims. Even last summer with 35psi in the rear I turned a back wheel octagonal.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  17. #4017
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    I may be thinking about compression damping 100% wrong. I'd have thought that compression damping affects travel, because the dynamic "hit" gets passed along to your body when the fork resists compressing--the impact doesn't keep exerting force on the suspension until you've reached the same amount of travel.

    Same with low-speed compression--if you increase the damping, the suspension doesn't bob when you pedal. That "not bobbing" is because it's using less travel. Right?
    Yes any extra damping (including HBO) will reduce the stroke needed to take out a certain bump energy.

    You will know if you need to dial in more HBO. It becomes very very obvious. I changed forks (identical other than colour) and bikes last year and missed that HBO was open instead of closed.
    A small drop I had done plenty of times prior ended in a wrist hurting bang. It was normally quiet and smooth.

    Made me realise how much riders of other brand forks are suffering and why they run ~90psi on the same tracks!
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  18. #4018
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    I may be thinking about compression damping 100% wrong. I'd have thought that compression damping affects travel, because the dynamic "hit" gets passed along to your body when the fork resists compressing--the impact doesn't keep exerting force on the suspension until you've reached the same amount of travel.

    Same with low-speed compression--if you increase the damping, the suspension doesn't bob when you pedal. That "not bobbing" is because it's using less travel. Right?
    You are both right and wrong. The main compression damper does have an effect on travel used, mainly because it is always active. There are other factors at play as well though.

    For example, closing the LSC needle to prevent pedal bob. As you say, fork will move less (limit travel), but the reason this happens is because the amount of time force is applied trying to compress the fork is relatively short. If the same amount of force is applied over a longer period of time, the fork will compress the same amount. You are slowing the speed at which it compresses, not the distance. The reason it actually limits the travel used is because the amount of time the force is applied too short to over come the slow speed that it is compressing. Even if a fork/shock is fully locked out(assuming that it has a blow off) it will fully bottom if there is enough force then the spring will support, and the force is applied for enough time. This is why if you let all the air out of you fork and lock it out, it will still slowly compress to full travel.

    In the case of HBO, it only comes into play with the last 20-30mm of travel. If the impact is applying force that is strong enough and for a long enough period of time to bottom out, the HBO system will only slow it to keep it from smacking into the rubber bumper with extreme force. Faster the shaft speeds when the cones meet, the more damping force it creates, but once the shaft speeds slow , it no longer is a factor and can continue to full bottom out. The difference wont be that you used full travel, It will be that you dont feel an awful thud and hurt your hands when you reach it.

    I personally just run it full closed all the time, there is very little reason not to.

  19. #4019
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes the high flow piston reduces high speed damping. So you can run more LSC without harshness. The closed LSC gives more damping and control across the speed range.

    When you have the suspension sorted a firm tyre will not be a problem. I have to run firm tyres as I ride rocky trails which destroy rims. Even last summer with 35psi in the rear I turned a back wheel octagonal.
    Thanks for the info. That's crazy that you can damage a wheel at 160 lbs of rider weight and 35 psi of tire pressure!

  20. #4020
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I personally just run it full closed all the time, there is very little reason not to.
    Ooh, another vote for max HBO, interesting! Thanks.

  21. #4021
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    283
    Do I just not get the function of HBO? I've always left it open...never managed to noticeably bottom out my 160mm Mattoc, so figured there was no point.

    I'm about 190lbs, maybe pushing closer to 200 in downhill gear with a camelbak. I was doing some park riding last week, and didn't even firm up the fork that much...was running 45-50 main, 75-80 IRT. HSC 1-2 clicks. LSC almost closed, one or two clicks of rebound. I may have gotten into the last 10-20mm of travel on rare occasions, at worst.

    I didn't feel like I could back off the pressures any more, or it just got too wallowy. 5 pounds less in the main chamber and I felt like any tiny little rock sucked up half the travel. Less IRT and there just wasn't enough support when pointed downhill. And no 'sproing' in the second half of the stroke.

  22. #4022
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by phuchmileif View Post

    I didn't feel like I could back off the pressures any more, or it just got too wallowy. 5 pounds less in the main chamber and I felt like any tiny little rock sucked up half the travel. Less IRT and there just wasn't enough support when pointed downhill. And no 'sproing' in the second half of the stroke.
    5psi is a huge change when running the IRT set up. A 1psi difference is substantial. I switched to a digital pump specifically to be able to have .5psi increments because it's that sensitive (to me anyway) I'm not as sensitive to changes when running IVA,

    As for HBO, its mostly self explanatory and everyone has it mostly right, but it's more of a gradual cushion to slow down shaft speeds as you near the end of the stroke then a travel limiting ramp up adjustment. Its purpose is to keep you from needing to have excessive spring progression to keep you from slamming into the rubber bumper. (Progressive springs lack midstroke support)

  23. #4023
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    5psi is a huge change when running the IRT set up. A 1psi difference is substantial. I switched to a digital pump specifically to be able to have .5psi increments because it's that sensitive (to me anyway) I'm not as sensitive to changes when running IVA,

    As for HBO, its mostly self explanatory and everyone has it mostly right, but it's more of a gradual cushion to slow down shaft speeds as you near the end of the stroke then a travel limiting ramp up adjustment. Its purpose is to keep you from needing to have excessive spring progression to keep you from slamming into the rubber bumper. (Progressive springs lack midstroke support)
    I think his point is that when he sets his fork per his preferences it's so hard to bottom that HBO seems pointless. That's my experience also. Before IRT I almost never bottomed out. Now with IRT I can set it up to bottom out more often but never harshly even with HBO all open.

  24. #4024
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    32,325
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Thanks for the info. That's crazy that you can damage a wheel at 160 lbs of rider weight and 35 psi of tire pressure!
    Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  25. #4025
    J:
    Reputation: Deerhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,128
    Just saw new 27 fork..is travel adjustable? What kind of axle?
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  26. #4026
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R_Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.
    Ok....pro...

    Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

  27. #4027
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.
    Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.

    Maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the lower pressure numbers I've seen, since I'm always more interested in the lightweight riders' settings. But these were the examples that were easiest to get my hands on, with rider weight and rear psi:

    Bernard Kerr (WC DH) 181 lbs, 28 psi
    Troy Brosnan (WC DH) 146 lbs, 28 psi
    Mark Wallace (WC DH) 170 lbs, 30 psi
    Richie Rude (EWS) 205 lbs, 33 psi/30 psi
    Cody Kelley (EWS) 165 lbs, 29 psi

  28. #4028
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R_Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.

    Maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the lower pressure numbers I've seen, since I'm always more interested in the lightweight riders' settings. But these were the examples that were easiest to get my hands on, with rider weight and rear psi:

    Bernard Kerr (WC DH) 181 lbs, 28 psi
    Troy Brosnan (WC DH) 146 lbs, 28 psi
    Mark Wallace (WC DH) 170 lbs, 30 psi
    Richie Rude (EWS) 205 lbs, 33 psi/30 psi
    Cody Kelley (EWS) 165 lbs, 29 psi
    Jayem must ride "harder" than these guys. For what it's worth, I'm 250 pounds and run 25 psi in the front and 28 psi in the rear. It's highly subjective.

    Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

  29. #4029
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by ac1000 View Post
    I think his point is that when he sets his fork per his preferences it's so hard to bottom that HBO seems pointless. That's my experience also. Before IRT I almost never bottomed out. Now with IRT I can set it up to bottom out more often but never harshly even with HBO all open.
    I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.

    For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
    61.5psi main
    102psi IRT
    LSC 3 clicks from open
    Hsc full open or 1 click in (depends on trail type)
    HBO full closed
    Rebound 3 clicks in

  30. #4030
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.

    For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
    61.5psi main
    102psi IRT
    LSC 3 clicks from open
    Hsc full open or 1 click in (depends on trail type)
    HBO full closed
    Rebound 3 clicks in
    Here is a post I made a few years back explaining the HBO system. Instead of directing people to something 20 some pages back, I will just repost it :


    Attachment 1112045

    Compression damper is at the bottom, rebound damper at the top. attached to the bottom of the rebound damper is the male bottoming cone, which during the last 20mm of travel gets inserted into the female bottoming cone attached to the compression damper. The female cone is filled with oil that needs to be purged to allow the fork to be compressed any further. There are 3 holes(orifices) in the female cone visible in the above picture and one that is not. As the male cone gets inserted into the female cone, the oil will purge through the three visible holes. As the male cone enters further and the silver seal/glide passes the holes, the number of them that are passing oil is reduced, making it harder and harder to use full travel as you near the end of the stroke.This is why the dyno charts show steps. There is also a spring loaded poppet valve you cant see that the external adjuster adjusts. It adds or subtracts preload on the spring making it harder or easier to purge oil through the 4th orifice. It is designed to be a dead blow damper at this point, but also to allow full travel when the poppet spring opens to purge the oil. If you pay for 160mm of travel, you should use all of it

    Here are some dyno charts

    Attachment 1112046

    The steps are caused by the 3 holes being passed one at a time, adding a ton of damping with each one being passed. Note how the shaft speeds effect how much damping force the cones create. @100mm/sec, it basically does nothing because the oil is easily purged from the cone. This is about as fast as you can compress by hand, and why you dont feel it by pushing down on it. As shaft speeds speed up, the oil cant escape fast enough and its effects are much more obvious. You can only get these shaft speeds by riding.

    Attachment 1112047

    This graph shows how well the adjuster works. 0 clicks is full closed (clicks are always counted from closed), max 3 is full open. The adjust allows you to control how much force it takes to open the poppet(the trail off at the end) and use full travel.

    Fox has used this basic design in the past, as well as avalanche cartridges and a few other for dampers, its the standard in how hydraulic bottom out works. Much nicer than just a rubber bumper that is only effects the last couple mm of travel and is only meant to prevent metal on metal contact

  31. #4031
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R_Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.

    For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
    61.5psi main
    102psi IRT
    LSC 3 clicks from open
    Hsc full open or 1 click in (depends on trail type)
    HBO full closed
    Rebound 3 clicks in
    This fella right here happens to know a thing or two about how they work

    Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

  32. #4032
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    3,450
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.
    Pretty much everyone in EWS these days uses a reinforced casing tire (Double Down, Supergravity, etc.) along with tire inserts of some sort, and they'll often go to a 2-ply DH tire on certain courses. In DH, it's all 2-ply tires and many of them will have inserts as well.

    Most of us normal folks aren't willing to pedal around on tires that are that heavy or slow, we're mostly running lighter regular casing tires.

  33. #4033
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Here is a post I made a few years back explaining the HBO system. Instead of directing people to something 20 some pages back, I will just repost it :

    ....

    Here are some dyno charts

    Attachment 1112046

    The steps are caused by the 3 holes being passed one at a time, adding a ton of damping with each one being passed. Note how the shaft speeds effect how much damping force the cones create. @100mm/sec, it basically does nothing because the oil is easily purged from the cone. This is about as fast as you can compress by hand, and why you dont feel it by pushing down on it. As shaft speeds speed up, the oil cant escape fast enough and its effects are much more obvious. You can only get these shaft speeds by riding.

    Attachment 1112047

    This graph shows how well the adjuster works. 0 clicks is full closed (clicks are always counted from closed), max 3 is full open. The adjust allows you to control how much force it takes to open the poppet(the trail off at the end) and use full travel.
    Fascinating! What shaft speed is most like landing a drop/jump?

    Are the graphs truncated on the right? If not, it looks like HBO is involved in more like the last 20mm of travel than the last 30mm--not sure why I thought it was 30mm.

    Side q: is the black rubber cork at the top of the compression damper a bumper? Or what? I've always wondered about that.

  34. #4034
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,762
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I actually run a very stiff spring and bottom every ride. Like Dougal, I also work with Manitou on these products and am very intune with how they work. The HBO system works very well. It works by basically hydrolocking the fork when the cones meet IF shaft speeds are fast enough to reach the max flow rate. If they are slow enough to not reach max flow, either before the cones meet or because the HBO system slows them down, it becomes in effective because the oil can flow freely out of the female cone.

    For reference, I weigh 160lbs in gear
    61.5psi main
    102psi IRT
    LSC 3 clicks from open
    Hsc full open or 1 click in (depends on trail type)
    HBO full closed
    Rebound 3 clicks in
    mullen - what kind of impacts are you bottoming on? Bumps inside g-outs, or just hitting a rock or root at speed?

  35. #4035
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    283
    That's crazy that he can bottom that. That is some serious-ass riding.

    If I get into the end of my travel, it's either a big landing...or I have ****ed something up and am probably mid-endo. At my lower pressures and higher weight, the bottom 20-30mm of the travel still just seems like you're hitting a wall. A very, very springy wall. If I manage to bottom with 102psi in the IRT, I am crashing violently...

  36. #4036
    J:
    Reputation: Deerhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,128
    ...
    Last edited by Deerhill; 10-02-2018 at 07:15 PM.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  37. #4037
    J:
    Reputation: Deerhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,128
    ...
    Last edited by Deerhill; 10-02-2018 at 07:31 PM.
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  38. #4038
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    mullen - what kind of impacts are you bottoming on? Bumps inside g-outs, or just hitting a rock or root at speed?
    Full bottom out is usually from over jumping to flat (on purpose most time) or large drops. I will use 130mm or so on large square edge at speed.

  39. #4039
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Kiwiplague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,571
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Side q: is the black rubber cork at the top of the compression damper a bumper? Or what? I've always wondered about that.
    It fulfills the same function as the bladder on other forks. It gets compressed by the damper oil as the fork moves through it's travel. A lot simpler and just as effective as the other systems out there.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

  40. #4040
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Welcome to reality. Some of us ride that hard and the terrain is that abusive. I don't see how people can run 18psi in many of the places they claim to, I'd roll the tire right off the rim if the terrain is smooth and if it's rocky, I'd quickly dent/explode the rim. I'm about the same weight.
    Last summer I had a mid-ride yarn about tyre pressures. The three main characters in this story were running 35psi (me) about 20 and under 20 for the third guy.

    We proceeded to damage three rear wheels on rocks on the way down. Mine was buckled and flat-spotted but I was able to true it straight and keep riding it for the rest of the season. The other two guys rims were deep dents and damaged beyond usable.

    A little extra pressure makes a massive difference in stability and rim protection. I've never considered myself a hard or fast rider. I just ride in challenging terrain.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  41. #4041
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by phuchmileif View Post
    That's crazy that he can bottom that. That is some serious-ass riding.

    If I get into the end of my travel, it's either a big landing...or I have ****ed something up and am probably mid-endo. At my lower pressures and higher weight, the bottom 20-30mm of the travel still just seems like you're hitting a wall. A very, very springy wall. If I manage to bottom with 102psi in the IRT, I am crashing violently...

    Manitou Mattoc-img_20180715_125700_555.jpg

    A few manitou riders ride up to 175psi, it gets insane

  42. #4042
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Cool. I was just surprised to hear that good-but-not-pro, 160-lb riders need that much air. I don't think I've ever seen an EWS or World Cup DH bike check with pressures that high, but maybe they are running beefier sidewalls and cushcore (etc.), and even for EWS guys the rim only has to last a weekend.

    Maybe I'm just biased toward remembering the lower pressure numbers I've seen, since I'm always more interested in the lightweight riders' settings. But these were the examples that were easiest to get my hands on, with rider weight and rear psi:

    Bernard Kerr (WC DH) 181 lbs, 28 psi
    Troy Brosnan (WC DH) 146 lbs, 28 psi
    Mark Wallace (WC DH) 170 lbs, 30 psi
    Richie Rude (EWS) 205 lbs, 33 psi/30 psi
    Cody Kelley (EWS) 165 lbs, 29 psi
    Unlike those guys, I have to pay for my own tyres, rims etc etc and like them to last more than a day.

    The DH guys are also running much heavier tyres with thicker walls and many running inserts to stop rim strikes. Same with a lot of Enduro.

    Basically I'm using air pressure to stop rim strikes and don't care about giving up a little traction. But those guys are running the lower pressure to maximise grip and having to take all sorts of other steps to keep their wheels in one piece.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  43. #4043
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    409
    [QUOTE=Deerhill;13833986]
    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Just saw new 27 fork..is travel adjustable? What kind of axle?[/QUOTE

    Lowers looked sweet, not inverted now?? Chrome gonna be production???spill the beans!
    Link please?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  44. #4044
    Short-Change-Hero
    Reputation: gregnash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,412
    [QUOTE=OrenPerets;13834523]
    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post

    Link please?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes I am curious as well. Was waiting to see something from Interbike but have seen no one post on Manitou yet. Really wish I would have gone seeing as I am now 30 mins away.

  45. #4045
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    [QUOTE=gregnash;13836729]
    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post

    Yes I am curious as well. Was waiting to see something from Interbike but have seen no one post on Manitou yet. Really wish I would have gone seeing as I am now 30 mins away.
    I answered your question about it months ago, and stand by what I said.

  46. #4046
    J:
    Reputation: Deerhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,128
    I can't find anything, sorry..post on vital is the only thing that popped up.. it must've been a boxxer or a not new dorado (had writing on stanchions). Dude was hauling azz so it must not've been a boxxer internet aint turning up squat tho
    Last edited by Deerhill; 10-02-2018 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Dumbfone
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  47. #4047
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    I can't find anything, sorry..keep looking for a bit then guess I 'll edit that post.. it must've been a boxxer or a not new dorado (had writing on stantions). Dude was hauling azz so it must not've been a boxxer internet aint turning up squat tho
    Silver forks are special editions, not for public. Not sure what pic you are referring to.

  48. #4048
    J:
    Reputation: Deerhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,128

    Saw it riding..

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Silver forks are special editions, not for public. Not sure what pic you are referring to.
    I don't know what fork it was, just thought it looked like a not inverted manitou. Sounds like I'm wrong though, is there a new dorado in the works??
    video=youtube;][/video]...

  49. #4049
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Waiting for my Mattoc Pro 2 (CRC Exclusive) delivery, I have few questions.

    It will replace a DT Swiss XMM 140 (who said that reverse arch are ugly?), on my Kona Explosif HT. I'm going to shorten the Mattoc at 140mm too.

    I hope to be able to do it without dedicated tools, using the 4mm allen trick, but I have to check if my cassette tool will fit (with or without the cutaway that I can do if necessary), it's a Kemper 2303-00 that should be for Campagnolo cassettes, but I'm sure to have bought it for my old Shimano Centerlock discs and worked fine with shimano cassettes too.
    If not, I'll think about buying the crazy expensive Manitou tools or just a Park Tool 5.2 as suggested here and grinding a 8mm hex socket.

    I read that (quoting Dougal) "When you connect a pump the positive and negative chambers connect and equalize. You can set the travel whereever you like, remove the pump, and it'll stay there"
    May be this a temporary workaround to set the fork at 140 waiting for proper tools (and time)? Could someone be more specific how it works? After setting the travel this way, how is the desired air pressure set?

    I also read that at 140mm the IRT advantages are less noticeable and standard IVA is more than fine, is this true? I'm more a set and forget guy. Riding it on a hardtail I'd like to have a less divey fork, would the IRT make a worthy difference at 140mm?

    Regarding lowers oil, I'd like to buy something that I could also use on my 2014 Fox 34 Factory. It seems that Fox Gold 20 should be fine for the Mattoc too. I have also an almost full bottle of Motul 10w 100% syntetic fork oil (Motul is easy to find and rather cheap here in Italy), but [email protected] is only 36, I guess that something around 100 is needed.

    Could be possible to change travel internally to a new fork without having to refill oil levels?

  50. #4050
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,751
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    Waiting for my Mattoc Pro 2 (CRC Exclusive) delivery, I have few questions.

    It will replace a DT Swiss XMM 140 (who said that reverse arch are ugly?), on my Kona Explosif HT. I'm going to shorten the Mattoc at 140mm too.

    I hope to be able to do it without dedicated tools, using the 4mm allen trick, but I have to check if my cassette tool will fit (with or without the cutaway that I can do if necessary), it's a Kemper 2303-00 that should be for Campagnolo cassettes, but I'm sure to have bought it for my old Shimano Centerlock discs and worked fine with shimano cassettes too.
    If not, I'll think about buying the crazy expensive Manitou tools or just a Park Tool 5.2 as suggested here and grinding a 8mm hex socket.

    I read that (quoting Dougal) "When you connect a pump the positive and negative chambers connect and equalize. You can set the travel whereever you like, remove the pump, and it'll stay there"
    May be this a temporary workaround to set the fork at 140 waiting for proper tools (and time)? Could someone be more specific how it works? After setting the travel this way, how is the desired air pressure set?

    I also read that at 140mm the IRT advantages are less noticeable and standard IVA is more than fine, is this true? I'm more a set and forget guy. Riding it on a hardtail I'd like to have a less divey fork, would the IRT make a worthy difference at 140mm?

    Regarding lowers oil, I'd like to buy something that I could also use on my 2014 Fox 34 Factory. It seems that Fox Gold 20 should be fine for the Mattoc too. I have also an almost full bottle of Motul 10w 100% syntetic fork oil (Motul is easy to find and rather cheap here in Italy), but [email protected] is only 36, I guess that something around 100 is needed.

    Could be possible to change travel internally to a new fork without having to refill oil levels?
    While you can set travel by removing the pump when the fork is compressed, it does not feel the same. Very squishy and hard to control the actual travel. I would not recommend running the fork like that.

    I ran the IRT at 160 and when I moved to 140, I initially removed it, thinking I would not need it. In reality, the IRT is even better with the shorter travel as it makes the mid stroke much more supportive. I run it almost 2:1 in the 140mm setting. Make sure you add the IRT air first, pull the legs apart and add air to the main chambers.

    I use Fox gold in my bath oil but have also used Mobil 1 motor oil. Both work fine. The Fox gold is better but gets sticky in the cold.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  51. #4051
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    I hope to be able to do it without dedicated tools, using the 4mm allen trick, but I have to check if my cassette tool will fit (with or without the cutaway that I can do if necessary), it's a Kemper 2303-00 that should be for Campagnolo cassettes, but I'm sure to have bought it for my old Shimano Centerlock discs and worked fine with shimano cassettes too.
    If not, I'll think about buying the crazy expensive Manitou tools or just a Park Tool 5.2 as suggested here and grinding a 8mm hex socket.
    I've opened my Mattocs several times now without the Manitou tools. The first time was a disaster. Potential pitfalls:

    I avoided this trap, but do pay attention to the clockwise/counterclockwise issue--remember that some of the threads are being accessed from the "back" and need to be turned the opposite direction (despite being threaded normally--it's your perspective that is reversed).

    I somehow thought I needed a Park FR 1.2, and bought one for the job. It seemed to fit well enough--then I almost ruined the fork. Be wary of a tool that "seems" like the right fit, but has a little slop. It doesn't take much. It doesn't need to be slotted if the tool has wrench flats (instead of being designed for use with a socket wrench).

    I ground down a cheap socket, and then it split where I removed too much material--and it stripped the fitting. Now I use an allen wrench (good tips here regarding reassembly, and in general: https://www.pinkbike.com/u/scar4me/b...ng-issues.html).

  52. #4052
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    While you can set travel by removing the pump when the fork is compressed, it does not feel the same. Very squishy and hard to control the actual travel. I would not recommend running the fork like that.
    I may use this way just one or two times before I have to leave in a few days for a trip, the actual fork is creaking so bad that I'm not feeling safe riding it, needs investigation.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I use Fox gold in my bath oil but have also used Mobil 1 motor oil. Both work fine. The Fox gold is better but gets sticky in the cold.
    Fox Gold 20w
    Rockshox 5WT for the damper ([email protected] cst)
    Sram Butter grease

    Sounds good?

    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    I've opened my Mattocs several times now without the Manitou tools. The first time was a disaster. Potential pitfalls:

    I avoided this trap, but do pay attention to the clockwise/counterclockwise issue--remember that some of the threads are being accessed from the "back" and need to be turned the opposite direction (despite being threaded normally--it's your perspective that is reversed).

    I somehow thought I needed a Park FR 1.2, and bought one for the job. It seemed to fit well enough--then I almost ruined the fork. Be wary of a tool that "seems" like the right fit, but has a little slop. It doesn't take much. It doesn't need to be slotted if the tool has wrench flats (instead of being designed for use with a socket wrench).

    I ground down a cheap socket, and then it split where I removed too much material--and it stripped the fitting. Now I use an allen wrench (good tips here regarding reassembly, and in general: https://www.pinkbike.com/u/scar4me/b...ng-issues.html).
    Thank you for the tips, very informative, already watched Manitou videos and I'm aware of most of the correct procedure, as for the cassette socket, assuming that I have to buy a new one, thinking to go with Park Tool FR5.2

  53. #4053
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Today I used a Parktool FR-5.2 to remove the airshaft on a Mattoc Comp from a friend.
    All I needed was to remove all the air and compress the shaft. I was to try it on the damper side, but I forgot to do it in the end.
    One alternative is the Unior Freewheel remover Shimano - 1670.5/4
    Link: https://www.bike24.com/p2159495.html
    Attachment 1165371
    It is a very deep socket.

    EDIT: I had posted the wrong tool
    I can easily find this one, does it works 100%?

  54. #4054
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,751
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    I may use this way just one or two times before I have to leave in a few days for a trip, the actual fork is creaking so bad that I'm not feeling safe riding it, needs investigation.





    Fox Gold 20w
    Rockshox 5WT for the damper ([email protected] cst)
    Sram Butter grease

    Sounds good?



    Thank you for the tips, very informative, already watched Manitou videos and I'm aware of most of the correct procedure, as for the cassette socket, assuming that I have to buy a new one, thinking to go with Park Tool FR5.2
    I think for the damper oil, use 5W Maxima Fork Oil. Don't know if the Rockshox stuff is the same or not.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  55. #4055
    damned rocks...
    Reputation: Aglo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,276
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    I can easily find this one, does it works 100%?
    Are you referring to the Parktool or the Unior?
    Both work, but the Unior is more deep and easy to use, I prefer using the Unior because allow me to have more purchase and I don't have to fully compresse the air shaft to remove it.

  56. #4056
    damned rocks...
    Reputation: Aglo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,276
    I will post some photos later using the Parktool and the Unior.

  57. #4057
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    The Unior, found it cheap and in the same shop where I'll buy oils and grease.
    Very convenient and fast.
    Thanks!

  58. #4058
    damned rocks...
    Reputation: Aglo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,276
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    The Unior, found it cheap and in the same shop where I'll buy oils and grease.
    Very convenient and fast.
    Thanks!
    Check if it's that number, they have a couple of very similar tools.

  59. #4059
    damned rocks...
    Reputation: Aglo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,276
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    The Unior, found it cheap and in the same shop where I'll buy oils and grease.
    Very convenient and fast.
    Thanks!
    The photos as promised:

    Unior 1670.5/4
    Manitou Mattoc-crop1.jpg

    Parktool FR-5.2
    Manitou Mattoc-crop2.jpg

    Both tools have the splines with +/- the same length, but because the Parktool FR-5.2 is shallower it doesn't have full purchase and only 3mm or 4mm of the splines are inserted, on the other hand the Unior is fully inserted and I don't even need to force the shaft.

  60. #4060
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    The photos as promised:

    Unior 1670.5/4
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	crop1.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	21.0 KB 
ID:	1221003


    Both tools have the splines with +/- the same length, but because the Parktool FR-5.2 is shallower it doesn't have full purchase and only 3mm or 4mm of the splines are inserted, on the other hand the Unior is fully inserted and I don't even need to force the shaft.
    Great, thanks! That's what I've got.

    Just arrived the CRC Mattoc Pro, new seals, travel reduction kit and a nice stealth decals kit that I didn't expect for.

    Unfortunately it's too late to shorten it and mount on my bike, I have to wait until I'll be back to my home in November

    Two thumbs down for CRC tho, canceled my order two times for an "internal error", slow, vague and useless replies, even unable to send me a working shipment tracking.
    Last edited by #fdh; 10-18-2018 at 09:23 AM. Reason: bad english :)

  61. #4061
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    814
    Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion video (Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion) shows how to replace the HBO cone (6:33 - 7:45). I assume that this is how I install the High Flow piston? I haven't received the package yet and haven't seen the instructions, just trying to make sure I have all the tools ready. Looks like I must get shaft clamp.

  62. #4062
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion video (Mattoc 26" to 27.5" Conversion) shows how to replace the HBO cone (6:33 - 7:45). I assume that this is how I install the High Flow piston? I haven't received the package yet and haven't seen the instructions, just trying to make sure I have all the tools ready. Looks like I must get shaft clamp.
    Yes replacing the HBO cone is one step away from swapping the whole piston. Whether you need a shaft clamp or not depends on how tight the rebound tube is on the rebound end-cap.
    Wrapping a bike tube around it (increases grip and diameter) is a great way to remove small parts without a shaft clamp.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  63. #4063
    Land of the 230+
    Reputation: GuitsBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,486
    Is anybody else riding a mattoc/magnum on primarily "trail" type riding where there are plenty of roots, rocks and mild drops, but a good lap time is primarily made on the climbs and not the descents? I'm wondering how their IRT/main pressures stack up, and if emphasis on climbing dictates a larger air pressure split than if it was more descent focused.

    I'm about 230+ ride weight, have a magnum pro at 140mm travel with 65 psi main and 120 psi IRT, 2 clicks LSC, 1 click HSC and 2 clicks rebound. Also running a mcleod 165x38 at 185 psi with a 2.65 leverage ratio.

    So far it gives me good mid support, and better small bump than any fork Ive had. I'm spoiled by the comfort and probably dont run as much LSC as I should since I lose a bit of small bump compliance. The fork is surely out performing the x-fusion and the fox that was on the bike before, but just cause its better doesnt mean Ive found whats best. Wondering what other guys that care about pedaling uphill are running?

  64. #4064
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R_Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    Is anybody else riding a mattoc/magnum on primarily "trail" type riding where there are plenty of roots, rocks and mild drops, but a good lap time is primarily made on the climbs and not the descents? I'm wondering how their IRT/main pressures stack up, and if emphasis on climbing dictates a larger air pressure split than if it was more descent focused.

    I'm about 230+ ride weight, have a magnum pro at 140mm travel with 65 psi main and 120 psi IRT, 2 clicks LSC, 1 click HSC and 2 clicks rebound. Also running a mcleod 165x38 at 185 psi with a 2.65 leverage ratio.

    So far it gives me good mid support, and better small bump than any fork Ive had. I'm spoiled by the comfort and probably dont run as much LSC as I should since I lose a bit of small bump compliance. The fork is surely out performing the x-fusion and the fox that was on the bike before, but just cause its better doesnt mean Ive found whats best. Wondering what other guys that care about pedaling uphill are running?
    That's going to depend 100% on your riding style as hell. Do you sit and spin? Or do you stand a smash?

    If you sit and spin you will be able to keep the fork a lot softer. If you stand and smash you are going to clearly need it firmer.

    I climb seated, so I run my fork as plush as I can without any noticeable hindrance to climbing ability.

    Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

  65. #4065
    Land of the 230+
    Reputation: GuitsBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,486
    Quote Originally Posted by R_Pierce View Post
    That's going to depend 100% on your riding style as hell. Do you sit and spin? Or do you stand a smash?
    It's a bit of both. When possible Ill sit and spin to conserve energy, but some sections just need to be hammered out. I ride a bit of SS as well, so I'm no strange to climbing out of the saddle. I do understand that pressures and settings are entirely dependent on the bike, the individual, the terrain, etc. I guess I'm most curious about what kind of split others run. I see its popular to start with 2:3 main:IRT ratio, and take it up to 1:2 for more aggressive riding. Surely XC climbing isn't considered more aggressive riding, but would they not also benefit from a larger split due to extra mid support?

  66. #4066
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R_Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitsBoy View Post
    It's a bit of both. When possible Ill sit and spin to conserve energy, but some sections just need to be hammered out. I ride a bit of SS as well, so I'm no strange to climbing out of the saddle. I do understand that pressures and settings are entirely dependent on the bike, the individual, the terrain, etc. I guess I'm most curious about what kind of split others run. I see its popular to start with 2:3 main:IRT ratio, and take it up to 1:2 for more aggressive riding. Surely XC climbing isn't considered more aggressive riding, but would they not also benefit from a larger split due to extra mid support?
    Very possible. I find with too large of a split (too high of IRT) I don't like how harsh the initial stroke gets. I know some others (like Mullen) that run a pretty high IRT but also ride fairly aggressive.

    If you look back a few pages a few of us posted our IRT/Main splits.

    Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

  67. #4067
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    490
    from what Ive calculated in excel, based on volumes, curves for 160mm mattoc looks like below. Lowers pressure is skipped. Closest to linear for 160mm stroke are 1:2,5-3 ratios. Unfortunately volume ratios between negative, positive and IRT could be better. Also have ridden mattoc with coil and 1:2,5-3 ratio is closest to linear coil. If you want coil curve, just draw line in Paint.

    47 psi with IVA full volume
    42,5/85 IRT (1:2)
    42,5/107,5 IRT (1:2,5)

  68. #4068
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    814
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes replacing the HBO cone is one step away from swapping the whole piston. Whether you need a shaft clamp or not depends on how tight the rebound tube is on the rebound end-cap.
    Wrapping a bike tube around it (increases grip and diameter) is a great way to remove small parts without a shaft clamp.
    Ok, thanks

  69. #4069
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    from what Ive calculated in excel, based on volumes, curves for 160mm mattoc looks like below. Lowers pressure is skipped. Closest to linear for 160mm stroke are 1:2,5-3 ratios. Unfortunately volume ratios between negative, positive and IRT could be better. Also have ridden mattoc with coil and 1:2,5-3 ratio is closest to linear coil. If you want coil curve, just draw line in Paint.

    47 psi with IVA full volume
    42,5/85 IRT (1:2)
    42,5/107,5 IRT (1:2,5)
    Can you please post the excel spreadsheet? I would love to play with the values. Btw, how did you measure volume of pos, neg and IRT chambets?
    Tnx

  70. #4070
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    from what Ive calculated in excel, based on volumes, curves for 160mm mattoc looks like below. Lowers pressure is skipped. Closest to linear for 160mm stroke are 1:2,5-3 ratios. Unfortunately volume ratios between negative, positive and IRT could be better. Also have ridden mattoc with coil and 1:2,5-3 ratio is closest to linear coil. If you want coil curve, just draw line in Paint.

    47 psi with IVA full volume
    42,5/85 IRT (1:2)
    42,5/107,5 IRT (1:2,5)
    While you're there. Do you want to plot the derivative of each slope to show the resulting spring-rate?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  71. #4071
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    490
    hmm unfortunately I dont understand your request. English is not my mother language.

  72. #4072
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    hmm unfortunately I dont understand your request. English is not my mother language.
    Derivative is dy/dx in maths. The change in spring force for every change in mm compression.

    Does that help?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  73. #4073
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    26
    Looking for a bit of guidance, I have a friend who's selling me an original mattoc 160mm lowered to 140 (based on exposed stanchions), and the fork overall feels and looks great, however the air spring seems horrifically too linear and soft.

    I'm 190lbs he's a bit more than me so i'm not sure how he was riding it but i can almost bottom it out leaning on it when setup per the spring chart. Trying to ride it, it seems to be sitting half or 3/4 the way through it's travel and makes for a very disconcerting feel. I've run this from 60-120 psi with very little change. I'm not sure how it was lowered as it was done the owner before him. Could this have anything to do it?

    Probably going to pull it apart soon enough and take a look at the air spring anything is wonky... It is the dorado, per the top cap. I pulled that off and there's nothing obvious going on in the upper portion for what that's worth.

    Thanks in advanced

  74. #4074
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by rclugnut View Post
    Looking for a bit of guidance, I have a friend who's selling me an original mattoc 160mm lowered to 140 (based on exposed stanchions), and the fork overall feels and looks great, however the air spring seems horrifically too linear and soft.

    I'm 190lbs he's a bit more than me so i'm not sure how he was riding it but i can almost bottom it out leaning on it when setup per the spring chart. Trying to ride it, it seems to be sitting half or 3/4 the way through it's travel and makes for a very disconcerting feel. I've run this from 60-120 psi with very little change. I'm not sure how it was lowered as it was done the owner before him. Could this have anything to do it?

    Probably going to pull it apart soon enough and take a look at the air spring anything is wonky... It is the dorado, per the top cap. I pulled that off and there's nothing obvious going on in the upper portion for what that's worth.

    Thanks in advanced
    I'd suggest the negative chamber has bath oil in it. Service will sort that and install IRT if you want tunable mid-end stroke support.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  75. #4075
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    490
    Quote Originally Posted by rclugnut View Post
    Looking for a bit of guidance, I have a friend who's selling me an original mattoc 160mm lowered to 140 (based on exposed stanchions), and the fork overall feels and looks great, however the air spring seems horrifically too linear and soft.

    I'm 190lbs he's a bit more than me so i'm not sure how he was riding it but i can almost bottom it out leaning on it when setup per the spring chart. Trying to ride it, it seems to be sitting half or 3/4 the way through it's travel and makes for a very disconcerting feel. I've run this from 60-120 psi with very little change. I'm not sure how it was lowered as it was done the owner before him. Could this have anything to do it?

    Probably going to pull it apart soon enough and take a look at the air spring anything is wonky... It is the dorado, per the top cap. I pulled that off and there's nothing obvious going on in the upper portion for what that's worth.

    Thanks in advanced
    Mattoc has huge volume in positive chamber and air spring is linear or somehow digressive at beggining. At 140mm and with your weight volume reduction is neccessary. So you need IVA or IRT.

  76. #4076
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    193
    Just reading through some of the last months comments, I'm trying to figure out if i'm the weird one here.

    I've got a Mattoc 2 Pro running at 150mm. Been riding 5 years, I would put myself at solidly intermediate, definitely not an expert. I don't think i've ever used all my travel at my current settings:

    65 degree head angle bike
    175lbs
    50psi on IVA with no volume spacers (I even removed the volume spacers below the seal in an attempt to get a more linear spring curve)
    LSC 2 clicks in
    HSC open
    HBO open

    very happy with the midrange support of the fork, but it seems like even at full open, the HSC is still too harsh and I never use all the travel even on 3-4 foot drops to flat, and i can't lower my psi without making the fork feel dive-y

    I've changed shims on my Manitou Minute before, I'm wondering, is there a specific shim I can remove to decrease the HSC damping, or any thought anyone might have about this issue?

    EDIT: looking back further through this thread, it sounds like the general idea is that the 8mm ID shims control the low to mid speed events and the 10mm ID shims control the high speed, so absent any other advice, I might try removing the smaller OD of the 10mm ID shims and seeing how the fork acts.

  77. #4077
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Just reading through some of the last months comments, I'm trying to figure out if i'm the weird one here.

    I've got a Mattoc 2 Pro running at 150mm. Been riding 5 years, I would put myself at solidly intermediate, definitely not an expert. I don't think i've ever used all my travel at my current settings:

    65 degree head angle bike
    175lbs
    50psi on IVA with no volume spacers (I even removed the volume spacers below the seal in an attempt to get a more linear spring curve)
    LSC 2 clicks in
    HSC open
    HBO open

    very happy with the midrange support of the fork, but it seems like even at full open, the HSC is still too harsh and I never use all the travel even on 3-4 foot drops to flat, and i can't lower my psi without making the fork feel dive-y

    I've changed shims on my Manitou Minute before, I'm wondering, is there a specific shim I can remove to decrease the HSC damping, or any thought anyone might have about this issue?

    EDIT: looking back further through this thread, it sounds like the general idea is that the 8mm ID shims control the low to mid speed events and the 10mm ID shims control the high speed, so absent any other advice, I might try removing the smaller OD of the 10mm ID shims and seeing how the fork acts.
    The 8mm shims provide daming over the entire velocity range. The 10mm shims are what the external hsc adjuster adds preload to. In the open position (HSC full out, no preload or a little float), the 10mm shims add meaningful damping. It's only after they are preloaded that they add damping.

    The MC2 damper has no way to control how much float there is on the 10mm shims when in the open position. Because of this, I do not recommend end users start adjusting the MC2 shim stacks themselves. Adding or removing shims from either stack changes the spacing between the piston and the HSC adjuster. If not calculated correctly, the HSC adjuster range shifts leaving you with improper damper function of the 10mm stack. Anywhere from from a HSC adjustment that no longer functions to an adjuster that (when open) is the equivalent to running 2-3 clicks of HSC is possible with only a few shims added or subtracted.

    I would check your damper oil height to make sure it's not adding to much progression or hydrolocking your fork. This is your likely issue.
    Last edited by mullen119; 10-29-2018 at 03:56 PM.

  78. #4078
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Just reading through some of the last months comments, I'm trying to figure out if i'm the weird one here.

    I've got a Mattoc 2 Pro running at 150mm. Been riding 5 years, I would put myself at solidly intermediate, definitely not an expert. I don't think i've ever used all my travel at my current settings:

    65 degree head angle bike
    175lbs
    50psi on IVA with no volume spacers (I even removed the volume spacers below the seal in an attempt to get a more linear spring curve)
    LSC 2 clicks in
    HSC open
    HBO open

    very happy with the midrange support of the fork, but it seems like even at full open, the HSC is still too harsh and I never use all the travel even on 3-4 foot drops to flat, and i can't lower my psi without making the fork feel dive-y

    I've changed shims on my Manitou Minute before, I'm wondering, is there a specific shim I can remove to decrease the HSC damping, or any thought anyone might have about this issue?

    EDIT: looking back further through this thread, it sounds like the general idea is that the 8mm ID shims control the low to mid speed events and the 10mm ID shims control the high speed, so absent any other advice, I might try removing the smaller OD of the 10mm ID shims and seeing how the fork acts.
    You don't want to reduce HSC in the compression stack alone as that will just upset the pressure ratios and lead to cavitation under the rebound piston on compression. Which sucks in air and foams up your oil.
    If you are riding sharp stuff and fast compression then my high flow piston will reduce HSC from the rebound piston.

    But first you need to check your oil levels. First thing to do is pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand. If you cannot then the oil is foamed and increased in volume.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  79. #4079
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    490
    Easier job, but not professional (according to service manual) is to unthread damper top cap and just check oil high at fork full extension.

    Dougal, its not serious sin, right? :P

  80. #4080
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Easier job, but not professional (according to service manual) is to unthread damper top cap and just check oil high at fork full extension.

    Dougal, its not serious sin, right? :P
    That's allowed. Differences are minor.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  81. #4081
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'd suggest the negative chamber has bath oil in it. Service will sort that and install IRT if you want tunable mid-end stroke support.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Mattoc has huge volume in positive chamber and air spring is linear or somehow digressive at beggining. At 140mm and with your weight volume reduction is neccessary. So you need IVA or IRT.
    Thanks for the replies. We'll have to tear it down sometime this week to see if that's the case.

    Would using grease or similar be a good stand in for the irt kit? Or would this too migrate to the negative air spring? Not sure how they fill and equalize?

    Thanks

  82. #4082
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    193
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    But first you need to check your oil levels. First thing to do is pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand. If you cannot then the oil is foamed and increased in volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    I would check your damper oil height to make sure it's not adding to much progression or hydrolocking your fork. This is your likely issue.
    Thanks for the replies, guys! I've always had this issue, thought multiple services, and I use one of those motorcycle oil height setting tools for setting the oil height, so I don't think the oil height is the issue, but i'll double check it - i've been known to make dumber mistakes than this.

  83. #4083
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Thanks for the replies, guys! I've always had this issue, thought multiple services, and I use one of those motorcycle oil height setting tools for setting the oil height, so I don't think the oil height is the issue, but i'll double check it - i've been known to make dumber mistakes than this.
    Since you have IVA and not IRT, you can check if oil level is causing travel limitations by simply compressing the fork with a pump attached. With the Equalization port open with the pump attached, you should be able to bottom the fork with very little resistance. If you can't, oil level is the most likely cause.

  84. #4084
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    193
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Since you have IVA and not IRT, you can check if oil level is causing travel limitations by simply compressing the fork with a pump attached. With the Equalization port open with the pump attached, you should be able to bottom the fork with very little resistance. If you can't, oil level is the most likely cause.
    awesome, thanks, i'll give that a shot!

  85. #4085
    Live Free & Ride
    Reputation: NH Mtbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,486
    Just picked up a year old Mattoc Pro - the 120mm 29+ model, used. I was told it was ridden lightly for about a year and never serviced. When should I have it opened up for service or is there anything I can do with basic tools plus the Mattoc tool kit? I am open to changing the top seals with these - https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...EFS-HG-34.html

    And adding this oil - https://ktmtwins.com/products/motore...MaAhnMEALw_wcB

    Should I wait another season for this service or open it up now? Fork still looks real good and not abused at all, just wanted to make sure it stays that way. Any input appreciated!

    I also have a Marvel Pro from 2015, bought new, and have never opened that up...still works great with approx. 800-1000 miles on it. I have new seals going in that this winter. Not one issue with that fork!
    17 Fuel EX 9.9 (in progress)
    19 FM 279 carbon gravel
    17 Stache 29+
    14 GT Zaskar 100 9r

    https://kettleheadbrewing.com/

  86. #4086
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    Just picked up a year old Mattoc Pro - the 120mm 29+ model, used. I was told it was ridden lightly for about a year and never serviced. When should I have it opened up for service or is there anything I can do with basic tools plus the Mattoc tool kit? I am open to changing the top seals with these - https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...EFS-HG-34.html

    And adding this oil - https://ktmtwins.com/products/motore...MaAhnMEALw_wcB

    Should I wait another season for this service or open it up now? Fork still looks real good and not abused at all, just wanted to make sure it stays that way. Any input appreciated!

    I also have a Marvel Pro from 2015, bought new, and have never opened that up...still works great with approx. 800-1000 miles on it. I have new seals going in that this winter. Not one issue with that fork!
    The Manitou low friction seals are the best seals on the market. Very low friction with better sealing than any other seal tested. I highly recommend going that route if you change seals. (That's what should be in your fork now, if they are not leaking, ride them out another year)

    Motorex oil is very good, you want 15cst though, so go 2.5wt.

    Bath oil is Motorex power synthetic 4t 5w40

  87. #4087
    Live Free & Ride
    Reputation: NH Mtbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,486
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    The Manitou low friction seals are the best seals on the market. Very low friction with better sealing than any other seal tested. I highly recommend going that route if you change seals. (That's what should be in your fork now, if they are not leaking, ride them out another year)

    Motorex oil is very good, you want 15cst though, so go 2.5wt.

    Bath oil is Motorex power synthetic 4t 5w40
    Thanks mullen! I just picked the oil I saw on the Manitou service video, but will go with the 2.5 wt, or this - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-l...-fork-oil-25w/

    On a side note - just noticed this new on their site....might be worth a shot if it compares to the fork oil! - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-line/
    17 Fuel EX 9.9 (in progress)
    19 FM 279 carbon gravel
    17 Stache 29+
    14 GT Zaskar 100 9r

    https://kettleheadbrewing.com/

  88. #4088
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    Thanks mullen! I just picked the oil I saw on the Manitou service video, but will go with the 2.5 wt, or this - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-l...-fork-oil-25w/

    On a side note - just noticed this new on their site....might be worth a shot if it compares to the fork oil! - https://www.motorex.com/en-us/bike-line/
    The stock damper oil is Maxima 5wt. The Motorex equivalent is 2.5wt

  89. #4089
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Yesterday I opened my Mattoc Pro to reduce the travel, found it bone dry (again, brand new one purchased from CRC)!
    Barely a couple of drops of bath oil came out.
    Today I'll check the damper oil level, I know that it should be 77mm high, but I'm wondering if some oil will be "trapped" inside the cartridge, so maybe few mm less is ok?

    On a side note, I tried to use an 8mm socket that I turned down myself, it was nowhere thin enough (about 10.1mm outer diameter) and it broke anyway trying to loosen the valve, so I went to the 4mm allen method and it was super easy

  90. #4090
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    Today I'll check the damper oil level
    Damper oil level was way too high, about 71/72 mm from the top of the stanchion, had to remove little more than 4cc

    So, no bath oil and too much damper oil, shame on you M.

  91. #4091
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    121
    So I don't have the time or patience to read the previous 4,000 plus comments and was hoping I could get some help!

    I picked up a new Mattoc Expert 160 on ebay for $180. It's a 2014 model though. It's going on my all mountain hardtail with 26 inch wheels. I have no idea where to begin with setting it up. I'd appreciate any help. I weigh 170 pounds for reference and will be running 26x2.4 tires if that matters.

    Other question is the specs say the brake is "180 post"... so can I go with a 160 for weight savings or do I have to go 180? And if I go 180 do I still need an adaptor? Will be using Shimano XT.

  92. #4092
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by #fdh View Post
    Damper oil level was way too high, about 71/72 mm from the top of the stanchion, had to remove little more than 4cc

    So, no bath oil and too much damper oil, shame on you M.
    That is odd. I've never seen a new fork from Manitou without bath oil. Did you do a push-check on the damper shaft before removing oil? When the legs are off you push the damper shaft and if it can be compressed all the way in you're good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh-L View Post
    So I don't have the time or patience to read the previous 4,000 plus comments and was hoping I could get some help!

    I picked up a new Mattoc Expert 160 on ebay for $180. It's a 2014 model though. It's going on my all mountain hardtail with 26 inch wheels. I have no idea where to begin with setting it up. I'd appreciate any help. I weigh 170 pounds for reference and will be running 26x2.4 tires if that matters.

    Other question is the specs say the brake is "180 post"... so can I go with a 160 for weight savings or do I have to go 180? And if I go 180 do I still need an adaptor? Will be using Shimano XT.
    A 160mm rotor won't reach the brake. You'll need 180mm and it'll bolt straight on. Start with 50psi and rebound halfway.

    Tuning guide for all suspension here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...rt/setup-guide
    50psi and half rebound will be a good place to start.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  93. #4093
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That is odd. I've never seen a new fork from Manitou without bath oil. Did you do a push-check on the damper shaft before removing oil? When the legs are off you push the damper shaft and if it can be compressed all the way in you're good.
    No, i checked the damper oil level with the fork already remounted, should it be fine?

  94. #4094
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    A 160mm rotor won't reach the brake. You'll need 180mm and it'll bolt straight on. Start with 50psi and rebound halfway.

    Tuning guide for all suspension here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...rt/setup-guide
    50psi and half rebound will be a good place to start.
    Thanks!

  95. #4095
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    121
    One more question... Will dropping the travel from 160 to 140 help it climb better?

  96. #4096
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh-L View Post
    One more question... Will dropping the travel from 160 to 140 help it climb better?
    From a geometry and body position perspective, yes--the lower the front end the better. (From an actual fork performance perspective, no idea.)

  97. #4097
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    26
    I have a similar era fork and I believe it's a 160 lowered to 140, gotta tear it apart still... Anyway I found it to be overly linear, and it was riding super deep in the travel, not confidence inspiring. A user stated a few posts back that I needed IVA or IRT to get some progression in the spring. I may also have oil in my negative air chamber. Long story short, doesn't sound like the mattoc likes to be lowered without adjusting the air spring.

    On the topic of long travel hard tails, I ride an on one 456, currently using a float 32 (mattoc may replace this). I didn't like it at 150, felt it got too twitchy in deep compressions from the hta angle change. Dropped to 130, problem went away, miss the slackness but bike rides much better.

  98. #4098
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237

    shim pile

    The rebound damping on my Mattoc Pro v1 went away, so I disassembled the fork. I found a mangled mess--the rebound damper (outer) piston AND the HBO cone & inner (blue) piston had come unthreaded. There was a "de-stacked" assortment of 9mm-13mm shims floating in the damper body.

    Manitou Mattoc-img_2080%5B1%5D.jpg

    @Dougal, the threads all seem fine (cone & outer piston). Can I just reassemble this with new shims? Do you sell a kit with the various 9mm-13mm shims? I looked on Shockcraft but only found ABS+.

    And can you recommend a stack configuration for a 140 lb wanna-be enduro racer? I found your excellent ABS+ guide (https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/w...ng%20Guide.pdf) but I think it's not relevant, right?

  99. #4099
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    The rebound damping on my Mattoc Pro v1 went away, so I disassembled the fork. I found a mangled mess--the rebound damper (outer) piston AND the HBO cone & inner (blue) piston had come unthreaded. There was a "de-stacked" assortment of 9mm-13mm shims floating in the damper body.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_2080[1].jpg 
Views:	78 
Size:	228.1 KB 
ID:	1224069

    @Dougal, the threads all seem fine (cone & outer piston). Can I just reassemble this with new shims? Do you sell a kit with the various 9mm-13mm shims? I looked on Shockcraft but only found ABS+.

    And can you recommend a stack configuration for a 140 lb wanna-be enduro racer? I found your excellent ABS+ guide (https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/w...ng%20Guide.pdf) but I think it's not relevant, right?
    Sure we can get you some better shims. Probably low mile used vs new but they'll be fine. Send us an email.

    The ABS+ principles still work for the MC^2 compression stack, but not for rebound. You may or may not want a faster rebound range. I'd recommend (of course) the high flow piston since you're in there already.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  100. #4100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    By the way--for those considering using the 4mm allen wrench approach, a ratcheting screwdriver with appropriate allen bit is quite handy--you can easily keep pressure on the bit (pushing back against the spring) while turning it.

    Thanks as always, Dougal, for the advice. Looking forward to the fancy new piston.

  101. #4101
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    186
    I have done service to my CRC mattoc, bought this Summer it has been great for bike parks, but it had a good amount of stinction off the top, not smooth in the first 2 cm (at least compared to my dvo diamond).
    I opened it and found that it was completely dry, not a single drop came out.
    I know for sure that lowers oil didn't migrate into damper because i can get full travel without issues.

    Put 7 cc per side of supergliss 100k now it is working very smooth.

    I found a spacer on the rebound rod, similar to the one on the air side but bigger.
    It isn't present on the service video and i didn't have it on my old mattoc.
    Do you know why they put it?

  102. #4102
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    Just wanted to lower my fork.
    The mattoc is a breeze to work with.
    Not so much my f-ing X-tools torque wrench.

    Can this be solved with a heatgun, guessing it has red-loctite, and a new shaft foot damper?

    Its the internal 8mm hex bolt that has sheared of.
    Or do I need a new "ZUGSTUFE MANITOU MATTOC PRO 26/27.5 BOOST 141-30996-K003""

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-expert-comp-manitou.html


    Manitou Mattoc-mattoc_rip.jpg

    Manitou Mattoc-mattoc_rip_2.png
    Last edited by Langestrom; 11-18-2018 at 03:32 AM.

  103. #4103
    Live Free & Ride
    Reputation: NH Mtbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,486
    Here is my new (lightly used 17) Mattoc Pro 120mm 29+ fork. Stripped the stock decals and added these Slik graphics in stealth black for a more understated look on the front end of my Stache build. Wondering if I should open it up and check the fluid levels before mounting it? It has around 100 hours on, so maybe ride it for a season then open it. Can't wait to dial it in and finally see/feel how a 34mm fork performs on the trail!


    https://www.slikgraphics.com/collect...-pro-decal-kit
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mattoc-2018-11-17-19.03.00.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-2018-11-17-19.48.56.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-2018-11-17-19.41.54.jpg  

    17 Fuel EX 9.9 (in progress)
    19 FM 279 carbon gravel
    17 Stache 29+
    14 GT Zaskar 100 9r

    https://kettleheadbrewing.com/

  104. #4104
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    814
    I would definitely service the lowers after 100 hours when the fork is already on the table.

  105. #4105
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Langestrom View Post
    Just wanted to lower my fork.
    The mattoc is a breeze to work with.
    Not so much my f-ing X-tools torque wrench.

    Can this be solved with a heatgun, guessing it has red-loctite, and a new shaft foot damper?

    Its the internal 8mm hex bolt that has sheared of.
    Or do I need a new "ZUGSTUFE MANITOU MATTOC PRO 26/27.5 BOOST 141-30996-K003""

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/shaft-foot-damper-expert-comp-manitou.html


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mattoc_rip.jpg 
Views:	199 
Size:	124.3 KB 
ID:	1225171

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mattoc_rip_2.PNG 
Views:	197 
Size:	165.2 KB 
ID:	1225300
    That is the pro model. The pro shaft foot has smaller threads than the expert/comp version.

    Did you get the right one?

  106. #4106
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 006_007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    9,138
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    Here is my new (lightly used 17) Mattoc Pro 120mm 29+ fork. Stripped the stock decals and added these Slik graphics in stealth black for a more understated look on the front end of my Stache build. Wondering if I should open it up and check the fluid levels before mounting it? It has around 100 hours on, so maybe ride it for a season then open it. Can't wait to dial it in and finally see/feel how a 34mm fork performs on the trail!


    https://www.slikgraphics.com/collect...-pro-decal-kit
    Damn that decal kit looks good. I may be copying that color scheme for mine.

    And yes on the oil change (lowers at a minimum)

  107. #4107
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    That is the pro model. The pro shaft foot has smaller threads than the expert/comp version.

    Did you get the right one?
    Yes, I found the right one. Placed a order yesterday (Swedish time :P).
    Now I just have to figure out how to swap the shaft foot.

  108. #4108
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brankulo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,628
    I recently completed bike build and for some reason i thought it would be a good idea to go with pike. 2018 rc3 1600, 27.5. Been fox fork user for past 10 years and thought i would try something else. No matter what i do, i cant make the fork to feel right. Doing some research i found that basically the damper is crap. What i also found was great reviews of mattoc. Seriously considering to sell pike and get mattock.i am in us and looks like not much support here. I can do basic maitenance of lowers oil change providing that the steps are similar to other forks, but is there a service place in the us for more complicated stuff. Also please tell me mattoc is better than pike. Thinking mattoc pro version. I am tottaly dissapointed with pike.

  109. #4109
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by brankulo View Post
    I recently completed bike build and for some reason i thought it would be a good idea to go with pike. 2018 rc3 1600, 27.5. Been fox fork user for past 10 years and thought i would try something else. No matter what i do, i cant make the fork to feel right. Doing some research i found that basically the damper is crap. What i also found was great reviews of mattoc. Seriously considering to sell pike and get mattock.i am in us and looks like not much support here. I can do basic maitenance of lowers oil change providing that the steps are similar to other forks, but is there a service place in the us for more complicated stuff. Also please tell me mattoc is better than pike. Thinking mattoc pro version. I am tottaly dissapointed with pike.
    If you can change the oil in the lowers of other forks, you can more or less service the mattoc yourself, its an open bath fork meaning theres no complicated damper cartridge, you just need to take your time and you're pretty safe. The video below is the oil change service guide for the mattoc, very easy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e81ZjaRq3XU

  110. #4110
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Langestrom View Post
    Yes, I found the right one. Placed a order yesterday (Swedish time :P).
    Now I just have to figure out how to swap the shaft foot.
    A 10mm shaft clamp and you'll be sorted.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  111. #4111
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    7

    Mattoc Problems

    So I have had a mattoc for 3 years now and it's been great...Until it hasn't.
    My Mattoc Pro was excellent, but didn't match bike colour scheme, so a red Pro 2 came on sale at CRC and ordered it.
    Boom, it arrives, I drop the lowers, check oil heights (as we know sometimes these things come dry, so worthwhile just checking when you get a new fork), reassemble and go on my merry way.
    A few weeks later I notice my rebound knob will not turn. Go through to LBS, they disasemble and sorted (with a bit of pfaff).
    Few weeks go by and I want to do a lowers oil change. Take my 8mm to remove the rebound side and it slips! I think I've stripped the thing, but alas it's similar to what Langestrom had above, except that the 8mm has a vertical crack down it!
    So we go through some hassle to sort that out.
    Pass a few months, and on a descent i hear what sounds like a rather harsh bottom out noise...This is around August 2017.
    So I decide to open it up to check...Only to find the rebound damper assemble piston head has come off, the HBO thing has smashed into the bottom of the damper assemble and the entire shaft inside the stanchions is bent...
    I contact Hayes, they're not sure what happened. I contact CRC, they send a courier to South Africa to collect it, take it to Ireland, fix it and send it back...With our local Post Office after I requested a courier (at my expense even), knowing very well that our Post Office is pretty useless.
    Anyway a year goes by with a few lowers oil changes, wiper seals and one damper service.
    Last week...ad oddly familiar noise...so I open up the fork AGAIN, only to find the identical damage inside.
    See pics attached
    So, my question...has anyone experienced anything similar, or know what the actual problem may be? My LBS suspension guys believe it to be due to the chassis not being stiff enough to deal with bottom-out forces.
    For reference I'm about 74kg kitted, 90PSI in IRT and 50 to 60PSI in the main air shaft...so rather hard for my weight i guess.
    Hope nobody else has had the same problem.
    But anyway , now CRC want to get it back there AGAIN to check, and I am trying to avoid it as it's a massive time problem.
    Any advice/constructing comments or questions would be welcome
    And before anyone asks, yes servicing done to spec. Used all the online material, as well as directly contacting Hayes to confirm a few things which were every so slightly ambiguous in the documentation.

    Cheers!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mattoc-20181122_212045.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-20181122_212102.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-20181122_212120.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-20181122_212145.jpg  


  112. #4112
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuan View Post
    So I have had a mattoc for 3 years now and it's been great...Until it hasn't.
    My Mattoc Pro was excellent, but didn't match bike colour scheme, so a red Pro 2 came on sale at CRC and ordered it.
    Boom, it arrives, I drop the lowers, check oil heights (as we know sometimes these things come dry, so worthwhile just checking when you get a new fork), reassemble and go on my merry way.
    A few weeks later I notice my rebound knob will not turn. Go through to LBS, they disasemble and sorted (with a bit of pfaff).
    Few weeks go by and I want to do a lowers oil change. Take my 8mm to remove the rebound side and it slips! I think I've stripped the thing, but alas it's similar to what Langestrom had above, except that the 8mm has a vertical crack down it!
    So we go through some hassle to sort that out.
    Pass a few months, and on a descent i hear what sounds like a rather harsh bottom out noise...This is around August 2017.
    So I decide to open it up to check...Only to find the rebound damper assemble piston head has come off, the HBO thing has smashed into the bottom of the damper assemble and the entire shaft inside the stanchions is bent...
    I contact Hayes, they're not sure what happened. I contact CRC, they send a courier to South Africa to collect it, take it to Ireland, fix it and send it back...With our local Post Office after I requested a courier (at my expense even), knowing very well that our Post Office is pretty useless.
    Anyway a year goes by with a few lowers oil changes, wiper seals and one damper service.
    Last week...ad oddly familiar noise...so I open up the fork AGAIN, only to find the identical damage inside.
    See pics attached
    So, my question...has anyone experienced anything similar, or know what the actual problem may be? My LBS suspension guys believe it to be due to the chassis not being stiff enough to deal with bottom-out forces.
    For reference I'm about 74kg kitted, 90PSI in IRT and 50 to 60PSI in the main air shaft...so rather hard for my weight i guess.
    Hope nobody else has had the same problem.
    But anyway , now CRC want to get it back there AGAIN to check, and I am trying to avoid it as it's a massive time problem.
    Any advice/constructing comments or questions would be welcome
    And before anyone asks, yes servicing done to spec. Used all the online material, as well as directly contacting Hayes to confirm a few things which were every so slightly ambiguous in the documentation.

    Cheers!
    Stuff came loose once and from then it's been a muppet-wrench cycle. The only thing that can bend the damper tube like that is incorrect and extremely rough assembly. It hasn't gone in correctly; likely from the top seal head on the rebound assembly being unscrewed a little and out of place; and has been forced by winding up the end-cap anyway. That force has buckled the tube.

    Once ridden the out-of-line rebound HBO cone and compression HBO cup have hit each other and damaged each other.

    The cracked shaft foot is from over-torque.

    Who did the damper service?

    I wouldn't take any recommendation from that LBS suspension guy. That's not how this works at all.

    I have replacement HBO cups now so you don't have to replace the whole compression damper. You will need to replace the whole rebound damper.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  113. #4113
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Stuff came loose once and from then it's been a muppet-wrench cycle. The only thing that can bend the damper tube like that is incorrect and extremely rough assembly. It hasn't gone in correctly; likely from the top seal head on the rebound assembly being unscrewed a little and out of place; and has been forced by winding up the end-cap anyway. That force has buckled the tube.

    Once ridden the out-of-line rebound HBO cone and compression HBO cup have hit each other and damaged each other.

    The cracked shaft foot is from over-torque.

    Who did the damper service?

    I wouldn't take any recommendation from that LBS suspension guy. That's not how this works at all.

    I have replacement HBO cups now so you don't have to replace the whole compression damper. You will need to replace the whole rebound damper.
    Thanks Dougal.
    CRC were the last to work on the fork after it did the identical thing last year or so this time and they (apparently as they wouldn't give me a description of all the work done) from what I can tell replaced the rebound damper and the HBO cup. Since then all I did once was remove the damper at the top to check oil level, and one 2 separate occasions, drop the lowers, once again to drop the oil level. So no fiddling with the rebound from my side (unless winding it out with the blue dial before removing the lowers counts?).
    My questions is why would it have taken a little over a year to present itself again? Perhaps thats just how much "work" was required to sufficiently loosen stuff again to the point at which it failed?
    I will see what the local agent has...although they are NOTORIOUS for being, let's say, reasonably useless with spares for the brands they carry.

    Thanks again. Been following this thread on and off since 2015 when I first got my Mattoc Pro 1 and it's been a wealth of (sometimes over my head) information.
    Cheers

  114. #4114
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuan View Post
    Thanks Dougal.
    CRC were the last to work on the fork after it did the identical thing last year or so this time and they (apparently as they wouldn't give me a description of all the work done) from what I can tell replaced the rebound damper and the HBO cup. Since then all I did once was remove the damper at the top to check oil level, and one 2 separate occasions, drop the lowers, once again to drop the oil level. So no fiddling with the rebound from my side (unless winding it out with the blue dial before removing the lowers counts?).
    My questions is why would it have taken a little over a year to present itself again? Perhaps thats just how much "work" was required to sufficiently loosen stuff again to the point at which it failed?
    I will see what the local agent has...although they are NOTORIOUS for being, let's say, reasonably useless with spares for the brands they carry.

    Thanks again. Been following this thread on and off since 2015 when I first got my Mattoc Pro 1 and it's been a wealth of (sometimes over my head) information.
    Cheers
    If the only damper service you did was from the top, I'm not sure how that could have caused such damage. Reinstalling the damper from the top it's almost impossible to overfill it to the point of hydraulic lock and likewise hard to damage it during reinstall.
    It doesn't sound like you had enough riding to ingest enough oil for hydraulic lock either.

    I had one fork look similar a year or so ago. I was only sent the photos as a shop was dealing with it. The owner of the fork wasn't giving any explanations as to what/how happened.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  115. #4115
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    A 10mm shaft clamp and you'll be sorted.
    Cool!
    Is there any loctite on it?

    Then the next question.
    For lowers I have a TF-tuned Lower Lube mix.
    Whuddabout semi-bath oil?
    Would Motul 2,5W work?

    Manitou Mattoc-motul_2_5_w_thing.jpg

    (Don't dare to ask that question in the swedish forum's mattoc thread, as it might ignite the Great oil war of 2018 again)

  116. #4116
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Langestrom View Post
    Cool!
    Is there any loctite on it?

    Then the next question.
    For lowers I have a TF-tuned Lower Lube mix.
    Whuddabout semi-bath oil?
    Would Motul 2,5W work?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	motul_2_5_w_thing.JPG 
Views:	54 
Size:	39.6 KB 
ID:	1226800

    (Don't dare to ask that question in the swedish forum's mattoc thread, as it might ignite the Great oil war of 2018 again)
    I cannot recall if they had loctite or not. but if they did it was not enough to beat a shaft clamp.

    Motul 2.5wt will work in the damper, but the low VI will mean it thickens up a lot more in the cold. Motul vi400 is much better as the damper fluid if you want to use that brand.

    I don't have any experience with the tftuned bath oil. But it will likely work without issues. I use supergliss in summer and 0w40 polar lube in winter.

    I'm amazed the swedes get that passionate about oil!
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  117. #4117
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I cannot recall if they had loctite or not. but if they did it was not enough to beat a shaft clamp.

    Motul 2.5wt will work in the damper, but the low VI will mean it thickens up a lot more in the cold. Motul vi400 is much better as the damper fluid if you want to use that brand.

    I don't have any experience with the tftuned bath oil. But it will likely work without issues. I use supergliss in summer and 0w40 polar lube in winter.

    I'm amazed the swedes get that passionate about oil!
    Motul seems to be what everybody stocks here, and what I can find information on.


    Yeah, Oil, spoke nipple washers, geometry and.. well anything can set of a war it seems like Hahaha.

  118. #4118
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuan View Post
    So, my question...has anyone experienced anything similar, or know what the actual problem may be?
    ....
    Any advice/constructing comments or questions would be welcome
    I guess Dougal doesn't consider this a possibility, but otherwise I'd have guessed that the HBO cone unscrewed itself and got wedged against the female HBO thingy in a way that jammed the rebound shaft. Is that not possible?

    My HBO cone recently came unscrewed. The only damage was to the shims. But it's easy to imagine things getting really mangled in there if I'd kept riding on it.

  119. #4119
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Langestrom View Post
    Just wanted to lower my fork.
    The mattoc is a breeze to work with.
    Not so much my f-ing X-tools torque wrench.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mattoc_rip.jpg 
Views:	199 
Size:	124.3 KB 
ID:	1225171
    How did you get the fork apart after the foot broke? I just did the same thing to mine...

  120. #4120
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    I guess Dougal doesn't consider this a possibility, but otherwise I'd have guessed that the HBO cone unscrewed itself and got wedged against the female HBO thingy in a way that jammed the rebound shaft. Is that not possible?

    My HBO cone recently came unscrewed. The only damage was to the shims. But it's easy to imagine things getting really mangled in there if I'd kept riding on it.
    The cone coming unscrewed would chew up shims, but not compress and buckle the internal damper tube.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  121. #4121
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    See below.
    Last edited by Langestrom; 12-02-2018 at 06:08 AM. Reason: Forgot the quote.

  122. #4122
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    How did you get the fork apart after the foot broke? I just did the same thing to mine...
    Luckily it broke above the threads in the outer casing. I just had to unbolt the airshaft, pull the outer casing off and then get the broken part out with the allenkey.. Some members on the Swedish forums had to drill it out. :/

  123. #4123
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by phile View Post
    I guess Dougal doesn't consider this a possibility, but otherwise I'd have guessed that the HBO cone unscrewed itself and got wedged against the female HBO thingy in a way that jammed the rebound shaft. Is that not possible?

    My HBO cone recently came unscrewed. The only damage was to the shims. But it's easy to imagine things getting really mangled in there if I'd kept riding on it.
    For sure, 100%. I actually said fek it to CRC and stripped the entire rebound assembly the other day. The HBO cone and rebound piston had both come loose.
    Either way...I don't think things should be unscrewing themselves. Especially from the factory. The fact my exact for has done this twice now without anyone either time prior to the damage having worked on the rebound damper (only the compression to check oil height and replace damping fluid) really makes me think I at least got a dud. But even after CRC "fixed" it and replaced stuff, the same thing again? Meh, I dunno. Anyway, I seem to have rebuilt the rebound damper (as I had some spare parts which were not damaged in the previous time and LBS had another part or 2 from a fekked Mattoc), but my HBO cup is still pwned. So my plan is thus... Rebuild the compression damper as when I was cleaning the rebound damper I noticed bits of alu from the prev damage floating around, so it is likely pieces made their way into the damper itself. However...I cannot find an exploded view of the MC2 damper. I suspect disassembly, clean and rebuild it not difficult, just a little meticulous but without a diagram ... meh.
    Then I could just remove the damaged portion of the HBO cone by like 15mm, clean it carefully and see whether there is any problem. That might just mean little/no HBO...Yes...I only suspect this MIGHT work.
    But with the IRT that should be fine until I can source the actual part locally (considering how cheap the part if, it doesn't make sense for me to import it from overseas considering shipping costs).
    Any thoughts, or anyone with a diagram of the MC2 damper parts/etc. I can pretty much see how most things come apart already, but you never know whether there's a sneaky spring or something or shim which was stuck to some other part and after cleaning comes off etc.

  124. #4124
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    225
    I've never been really happy with my Pike on my YT Jeffsy 27, my Magnum Pro on my 29+ and my Auron on my Process 111 seem much better for an old man trying to keep up with the kids! The Pike just seems like a much more aggressive fork and not as smooth off the top. Anyways, I see the Expert on sale for nothing (like $225 after all the discounts) at Bikewagon so I pull the trigger. I figured it was a holdover, maybe a 17, but get it in and it says on the box manufactured 8/14!!! What the heck? Anyways, tempted to return, but I guess I'll give it a try. Any advice? Should I go ahead and add some oil in there? Also should or can I swap the cartridge from my Mag Pro to the Mattoc since I would prefer my YT to have the best

  125. #4125
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by kendunn View Post
    I've never been really happy with my Pike on my YT Jeffsy 27, my Magnum Pro on my 29+ and my Auron on my Process 111 seem much better for an old man trying to keep up with the kids! The Pike just seems like a much more aggressive fork and not as smooth off the top. Anyways, I see the Expert on sale for nothing (like $225 after all the discounts) at Bikewagon so I pull the trigger. I figured it was a holdover, maybe a 17, but get it in and it says on the box manufactured 8/14!!! What the heck? Anyways, tempted to return, but I guess I'll give it a try. Any advice? Should I go ahead and add some oil in there? Also should or can I swap the cartridge from my Mag Pro to the Mattoc since I would prefer my YT to have the best
    Expert works great for most people, you can upgrade the damper to the Pro version (which makes the whole fork a Pro) very easily. I have the bits listed here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-...t-manitou.html

    Also air side you can drop in the IRT or IVA: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/suspens...u-irt-iva-kits

    Also one piece seals are lower friction, your fork may have the older two piece seals (seal and wiper): https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodo...t-manitou.html
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  126. #4126
    mtbr member since 1996
    Reputation: Doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,133
    I have a 2017 Mattoc Comp Boost with the ABS+ damper. I want to have some shims on hand for tuning. What are the ID of the shims? I think they are 8mm, but may be 10mm (or is that the Pro damper?). The tuning guide has a lot of info about external diameter and thickness, but nothing about ID.

  127. #4127
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    I have a 2017 Mattoc Comp Boost with the ABS+ damper. I want to have some shims on hand for tuning. What are the ID of the shims? I think they are 8mm, but may be 10mm (or is that the Pro damper?). The tuning guide has a lot of info about external diameter and thickness, but nothing about ID.
    8mm.

    This is your best value for shims. I still haven't cut one of these open to count them though: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/abs-tun...l-manitou.html
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  128. #4128
    mtbr member since 1996
    Reputation: Doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    8mm.

    This is your best value for shims. I still haven't cut one of these open to count them though: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/abs-tun...l-manitou.html
    Thanks. I actually need some 6mm ID for my Topaz and was going to get some for my Diamond and the wife's Mattoc. So I need a range of sizes.

  129. #4129
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ColinL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,771
    I'll be completely honest and say that I stripped the foot nut on the air spring side once on my 1st gen Mattoc. I was using the 8mm and forgot they were (kind of) reverse threaded. I say kind of because as most of us realize, it's actually not reverse threaded but due to the orientation, you do turn it clockwise to loosen.

    It was the original air shaft so possibly could have asked Hayes for the warranty replacement to get the revised air shaft. Some did that, and I didn't see anyone post about being declined. However I caused the issue. So I bought the replacement air shaft.

    I can't even claim that I had been drinking; I enjoy a beer while wrenching now and then, but no, I just forgot and it is *very* easy to ruin that alloy thread.

  130. #4130
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    230
    My Mattoc Pro 2 has been really weird lately. When I'm riding it feels like something is loose in the front, like something loose in the handlebar area, but everything is tight. turns out its the fork, it's really harsh at low speed over small smooth rocks, etc.

    But reading through the thread, when I adjusted air, at least 10-15 times, it was always with the bike upright, not upside down.

    So ... how do I reset it all without taking it apart? Or do I have to take it apart? I don't have bath oil yet.

    Can I: turn bike upside down, attach pump, and fully extend the fork, then adjust for PSI and detach pump?

    Also, I need three materials to service the fork right? Motorex 2.5w, any synthetic 5w-40 (does this need to be motorex or can I just go to the auto store and grab engine oil) and slickoleum?

    EDIT: Just went into my garage and see I have Maxima 5w, is that okay? Or should I get the motorex 2.5?

  131. #4131
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    My Mattoc Pro 2 has been really weird lately. When I'm riding it feels like something is loose in the front, like something loose in the handlebar area, but everything is tight. turns out its the fork, it's really harsh at low speed over small smooth rocks, etc.

    But reading through the thread, when I adjusted air, at least 10-15 times, it was always with the bike upright, not upside down.

    So ... how do I reset it all without taking it apart? Or do I have to take it apart? I don't have bath oil yet.

    Can I: turn bike upside down, attach pump, and fully extend the fork, then adjust for PSI and detach pump?

    Also, I need three materials to service the fork right? Motorex 2.5w, any synthetic 5w-40 (does this need to be motorex or can I just go to the auto store and grab engine oil) and slickoleum?

    EDIT: Just went into my garage and see I have Maxima 5w, is that okay? Or should I get the motorex 2.5?
    If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.

    Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.

    Maxima 5wt is fine. Engine oils are all over the place for slipperyness. Best to use a brand and type that someone else has had success with.

    For those bottom bolts. Remember that most torque wrenches don't work in reverse!
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  132. #4132
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.

    Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.

    Maxima 5wt is fine. Engine oils are all over the place for slipperyness. Best to use a brand and type that someone else has had success with.

    For those bottom bolts. Remember that most torque wrenches don't work in reverse!
    I meant to say the "looseness" felt like it was in the headset area, not the shock. But I feel like it's the shock causing that to feel in the headset area, like the feeling when a shock is packed down (but it's not). It's weird and developed recently even though I haven't touched the air in a little while. I'll investigate this further. Thanks.

    I'll stick with motorex syn for now.

  133. #4133
    Live Free & Ride
    Reputation: NH Mtbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,486
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.

    Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.

    Maxima 5wt is fine. Engine oils are all over the place for slipperyness. Best to use a brand and type that someone else has had success with.

    For those bottom bolts. Remember that most torque wrenches don't work in reverse!
    I am also getting ready to open up my Mattoc Pro, and was looking for the correct fluids to replace. I just looked under my bench and I already have Slick Honey and an almost full bottle of Torco, the RFF 7 - leftover from an X-Fusion fork rebuild. Is this fork fluid OK to use on the Mattoc Pro? Thanx!

    Here are the RFF 7 specs:
    Viscosity @ 100 degC 5.70 cSt
    Viscosity @ 40 degC 19.98 cSt
    >>Features
    >Synthetic blend formula
    >For cartridge and damper rod fork applications
    >Advanced anti-friction and anti-stiction additive technology
    >High VI formula provides consistent fade free performance
    >Formulated for long term durability and component life
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mattoc-2018-12-09-12.59.16.jpg  

    17 Fuel EX 9.9 (in progress)
    19 FM 279 carbon gravel
    17 Stache 29+
    14 GT Zaskar 100 9r

    https://kettleheadbrewing.com/

  134. #4134
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    I am also getting ready to open up my Mattoc Pro, and was looking for the correct fluids to replace. I just looked under my bench and I already have Slick Honey and an almost full bottle of Torco, the RFF 7 - leftover from an X-Fusion fork rebuild. Is this fork fluid OK to use on the Mattoc Pro? Thanx!

    Here are the RFF 7 specs:
    Viscosity @ 100 degC 5.70 cSt
    Viscosity @ 40 degC 19.98 cSt
    >>Features
    >Synthetic blend formula
    >For cartridge and damper rod fork applications
    >Advanced anti-friction and anti-stiction additive technology
    >High VI formula provides consistent fade free performance
    >Formulated for long term durability and component life
    A bit thicker than ideal. Will still work but you'll get more damping from the ports which can make it harsher on fast hits.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  135. #4135
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    If you feel something is loose, you really need to strip the fork and check. Primarily damper side.

    Air changes will only result in the fork riding lower.

    Maxima 5wt is fine. Engine oils are all over the place for slipperyness. Best to use a brand and type that someone else has had success with.

    For those bottom bolts. Remember that most torque wrenches don't work in reverse!
    I learned this the hard way.... Costly lesson

  136. #4136
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    I am also getting ready to open up my Mattoc Pro, and was looking for the correct fluids to replace. I just looked under my bench and I already have Slick Honey and an almost full bottle of Torco, the RFF 7 - leftover from an X-Fusion fork rebuild. Is this fork fluid OK to use on the Mattoc Pro? Thanx!

    Here are the RFF 7 specs:
    Viscosity @ 100 degC 5.70 cSt
    Viscosity @ 40 degC 19.98 cSt
    >>Features
    >Synthetic blend formula
    >For cartridge and damper rod fork applications
    >Advanced anti-friction and anti-stiction additive technology
    >High VI formula provides consistent fade free performance
    >Formulated for long term durability and component life
    Hang on. I think there's a typo in your specs. I have found errors in Torco spec sheets before.

    The Torco RFF7 on the bottle is VI 285 and 5.05 cSt @100C. That puts it at 16.1 cSt @ 40C.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  137. #4137
    Live Free & Ride
    Reputation: NH Mtbiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,486
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Hang on. I think there's a typo in your specs. I have found errors in Torco spec sheets before.

    The Torco RFF7 on the bottle is VI 285 and 5.05 cSt @100C. That puts it at 16.1 cSt @ 40C.
    Good catch there Dougal! I just noticed also that the label on the bottle does NOT match the specs online. The bottle of RFF 7 I have reads 5.05 cSt, which is the correct spec for the RFF 5, not the 7. I may need to contact Torco and see what they have to say about this. Now I really don't know what version I have in my bottle....even the picture on their site shows the RFF 5 with 5.05 cSt, same as my 7. Thanks!
    17 Fuel EX 9.9 (in progress)
    19 FM 279 carbon gravel
    17 Stache 29+
    14 GT Zaskar 100 9r

    https://kettleheadbrewing.com/

  138. #4138
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Mtbiker View Post
    Good catch there Dougal! I just noticed also that the label on the bottle does NOT match the specs online. The bottle of RFF 7 I have reads 5.05 cSt, which is the correct spec for the RFF 5, not the 7. I may need to contact Torco and see what they have to say about this. Now I really don't know what version I have in my bottle....even the picture on their site shows the RFF 5 with 5.05 cSt, same as my 7. Thanks!
    Here are my corrected numbers, the torco spec chart seems to have had numbers jump a line and mess up the whole table, these now all line up with VI numbers:

    RFF5 is 10.8/3.92 cSt @ 40/100C, VI 325.
    RFF7 is 16.1/5.09 cSt @ 40/100C, VI 285.
    RFF10 is 19.9/5.74 cSt @ 40/100C, VI 260.

    If RFF7 was 5.05 cSt, that would give it a VI of 280. Clearly there are different ways to calculate which result in small differences.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  139. #4139
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    33
    It's fixed!

    Went to Volvos mechanical workshop and got me a peice of delrin, wich I cut, then drilled and then filed.

    The small retaining clip was a bitch to get of, mostly because I tried to get it of in the wrong direction. Clearly you should get it of towards the axle. Not the threads. But the fear of scratching the axle got the better of me.
    The spring loaded balls diden't want to come out and play at the first. But a quick persuation by turning the rebound knob with a 5mm, socket and then blowing them out like the big bad wolf, did the trick.

    Now to the scariest part. Clamping down on the axle.
    First I diden't want to use too much force, but after the axle turned a bit in the delrin softjaw, I changed my mind. Half to a quarter more turn on the vice, and it woulden't turn any more, and the shaftfoot came off. It sat with some kind of loctite/threadlocker.

    Putting it all back together was a breeze, found some light threadlock, put it back with my hands and lightly tightened it with a hex wrench.

    Now I just have to go home, change my underpants, have a whisky and reasemble my fork.

    Manitou Mattoc-img_20181217_154956.jpg
    Last edited by Langestrom; 12-17-2018 at 11:11 AM.

  140. #4140
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    121
    Will a 2014 Mattoc 26 fit a 27.5 tire? It's currently at 160 but I was planning on dropping it to 140.

  141. #4141
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    225
    I was looking at putting my 3.8 fat tires on my 29+ Mag, they claimed it could be done, it has the room if it hit right, but the widest part of the tire is a little low in the crown and looks like it will not clear. Anyone found a fat tire that will hit it correctly? I was thinking maybe a 27.5 3.8 wheel on the front? I have my Mag on an El GOrdo that is running 29+ now, I have a fat bike, but its fully rigid, might me nice to have the suspension fork option sometimes

  142. #4142
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ColinL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,771
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh-L View Post
    Will a 2014 Mattoc 26 fit a 27.5 tire? It's currently at 160 but I was planning on dropping it to 140.
    yes, you need to install the 27.5 HBO cone which would have been included with that fork when new. if it's NOS then it's there.

    easy to do when you have the Mattoc service kit or other appropriate tools and you're in there adding the travel spacers to the air spring rod.

  143. #4143
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by kendunn View Post
    I was looking at putting my 3.8 fat tires on my 29+ Mag, they claimed it could be done, it has the room if it hit right, but the widest part of the tire is a little low in the crown and looks like it will not clear. Anyone found a fat tire that will hit it correctly? I was thinking maybe a 27.5 3.8 wheel on the front? I have my Mag on an El GOrdo that is running 29+ now, I have a fat bike, but its fully rigid, might me nice to have the suspension fork option sometimes
    They were designed for 3.4" max. Tyre sizing is, of course, highly variable from rubber maker to rubber maker.

    You may need a Mastodon.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  144. #4144
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    They were designed for 3.4" max. Tyre sizing is, of course, highly variable from rubber maker to rubber maker.

    You may need a Mastodon.
    I guess it was just 3.4, I thought I remember seeing it would take a 3.8 somewhere. Thats plenty anyways I guess, I have a rigid fatbike if I need more

  145. #4145
    ndg
    ndg is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    5
    Well I'm confused.

    Just received a pair of "2016 26" 160mm Mattoc Pros" from Bike24 for the princely sum of 280. I ordered IRT at the same time (60) and was expecting to upgrade the seals in short order to the latest spec.

    Having pulled them out of the box (which has a 2014/09 date code and a 12mm dia green sticker) they already have the new updated seals, along with a liberal coating of lube on the stanchions! So they've been reworked at some point and presumably will have the updated airshaft too. 27.5" conversion bits were included in the box along with spacers.

    So I'm confused what's going on, but happy that these are essentially pro 3 spec for 307 delivered to the UK.

  146. #4146
    mtbr member
    Reputation: otsdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30
    Good find! Presumably the "26" puts off a lot of uniformed folks, hence the massive discount.

    On a somewhat related note, is the accessories kit the same regardless of the spec? My Pro 3 27.5+/29 Boost 120 has the 26-to-27.5 HBO cones ( https://i.imgur.com/3EQBttE.jpg ), even though they are not needed.

  147. #4147
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8

    Listen! Lower Circus PRO to 90mm

    Hello, folks!

    I want to ask you one question about manitou Circus PRO 100mm(which is Mattoc PRO in real, but with lower travel).
    I bought this fork few days ago, and as it's arrived i went to my local Manitou dealer to lower it's travel to 90mm.

    So, they said that they just add one spacer from air piston side(orange side, see excerpt from manitou manual, orange side)

    "Adjust the travel of the fork setting the spacer amounts as shown below. The 100mm can convert down to 80mm and the 120mm can convert up to 140mm.To adjust the greenspacers first remove the air piston using a6mm hex wrench (Fig. A). After adjusting spacers reinstall air piston and torque to 15-20 in-lb [1.5-2.2 N m] The orange spacers can be removed by hand."
    Manitou Mattoc-screenshot-2018-12-23-17.15.56.jpg
    And that's it. No more actions.

    When i went home, i check fork dimensions, so here they are
    a2c is ~472mm
    Legs from crown to to of the seals is only ~87mm..

    When i push fork to the maximum travel(by hands, fork has no pressure in air spring) it has only 2-3mm of free space on legs.

    So I'am guessing - is it possible to lower this fork to 90mm travel and what is wrong in my configuration? Maybe there must be one spacer on right side(currently there is no spacer on right side)

    Thanks!

  148. #4148
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewshkovskii View Post
    Hello, folks!

    I want to ask you one question about manitou Circus PRO 100mm(which is Mattoc PRO in real, but with lower travel).
    I bought this fork few days ago, and as it's arrived i went to my local Manitou dealer to lower it's travel to 90mm.

    So, they said that they just add one spacer from air piston side(orange side, see excerpt from manitou manual, orange side)

    "Adjust the travel of the fork setting the spacer amounts as shown below. The 100mm can convert down to 80mm and the 120mm can convert up to 140mm.To adjust the greenspacers first remove the air piston using a6mm hex wrench (Fig. A). After adjusting spacers reinstall air piston and torque to 15-20 in-lb [1.5-2.2 N m] The orange spacers can be removed by hand."
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot 2018-12-23 at 17.15.56.jpg 
Views:	112 
Size:	105.1 KB 
ID:	1230337
    And that's it. No more actions.

    When i went home, i check fork dimensions, so here they are
    a2c is ~472mm
    Legs from crown to to of the seals is only ~87mm..

    When i push fork to the maximum travel(by hands, fork has no pressure in air spring) it has only 2-3mm of free space on legs.

    So I'am guessing - is it possible to lower this fork to 90mm travel and what is wrong in my configuration? Maybe there must be one spacer on right side(currently there is no spacer on right side)

    Thanks!
    Sounds like you are properly set at 90mm. Manitou is notoriously short on travel across their product line. The rubber bumper will compress a few millimeters if you hit it hard enough and push the oring to the crown. (Hopefully you never hit it that hard).

    You can attach a pump and pull it extended well detaching the pump. This is how you Equalize the + and - spring chambers. Wherever the pump is detached, the fork will stay. You might gain a mm or 2 by doing this. Generally speaking, you will see 85-87mm of travel if set at 90 and that's normal


    On a side note, the Circus Pro is not a shortened Mattoc Pro. It's a cross between a Mattoc Pro and Comp as well as having some of it's own technologies and parts that the Mattoc doesn't use.

  149. #4149
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Sounds like you are properly set at 90mm. Manitou is notoriously short on travel across their product line. The rubber bumper will compress a few millimeters if you hit it hard enough and push the oring to the crown. (Hopefully you never hit it that hard).

    You can attach a pump and pull it extended well detaching the pump. This is how you Equalize the + and - spring chambers. Wherever the pump is detached, the fork will stay. You might gain a mm or 2 by doing this. Generally speaking, you will see 85-87mm of travel if set at 90 and that's normal


    On a side note, the Circus Pro is not a shortened Mattoc Pro. It's a cross between a Mattoc Pro and Comp as well as having some of it's own technologies and parts that the Mattoc doesn't use.
    Oh, thanks for the information. I did't know about +/- chambers setup. Now dimensions are: a2c 479mm, legs 94mm. Looks like real 90mm.

    The only thing I afraid of right now - is it necessary to add spacer on the right side(green on diagram) in my case? Does it used to save form from any kind of damage when you hit it too hard?

  150. #4150
    mtbr member
    Reputation: otsdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewshkovskii View Post
    The only thing I afraid of right now - is it necessary to add spacer on the right side(green on diagram) in my case? Does it used to save form from any kind of damage when you hit it too hard?
    The green spacers are the ones that adjust the travel, they are mandatory. The orange ones are adjusting the position of the bottom-out bumper.

    If the LBS were to only add the orange spacer and omit the green one, the fork would still measure 100mm travel but would bottom out hard at 90mm into the travel; given that the fork has the expected length for 90mm travel, I assume they added at least the green spacer. The Manitou spacers only seem to go in 20mm increments, though, I'm not sure how they got a 10mm spacer...

  151. #4151
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    The green spacers are the ones that adjust the travel, they are mandatory. The orange ones are adjusting the position of the bottom-out bumper.

    If the LBS were to only add the orange spacer and omit the green one, the fork would still measure 100mm travel but would bottom out hard at 90mm into the travel; given that the fork has the expected length for 90mm travel, I assume they added at least the green spacer. The Manitou spacers only seem to go in 20mm increments, though, I'm not sure how they got a 10mm spacer...
    This is correct. If the spacers under the bottom out bumper are not correct, you will have metal on metal contact sound when fully compressed from the hydraulic bottom out cones hitting each other. Sounds like they got it correct

  152. #4152
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    The green spacers are the ones that adjust the travel, they are mandatory. The orange ones are adjusting the position of the bottom-out bumper.

    If the LBS were to only add the orange spacer and omit the green one, the fork would still measure 100mm travel but would bottom out hard at 90mm into the travel; given that the fork has the expected length for 90mm travel, I assume they added at least the green spacer. The Manitou spacers only seem to go in 20mm increments, though, I'm not sure how they got a 10mm spacer...
    The story continues.. So, there is some error in manual or something like that(mystery).

    Guys from the service told me that when they pop out air spring bottom - there was 4(!!) spacers at bottom(orange) and 0 at top(green), so the only thing they did - they add one spacer to the top(green), that's all. So, it is seems that now fork has 90 mm travel.

    After that they told me a story about their experience with manitou(remember - they are official manitou service in my country) is always like this - in manual they write one thing, but when it comes to deal with real a fork - there is another thing inside.

    I'am will write to manitou tech support and ask them about spacers configuration for 90mm of travel.

  153. #4153
    mtbr member
    Reputation: otsdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30
    Ok, I have looked again at the diagram, the spacers are 1 cm each. For your fork (80-100 Circus) there are only 3 valid configurations:
    4 orange / 2 green - 80mm
    3 orange / 1green - 90mm
    2 orange / 0 green - 100mm

    In your current configuration (4 orange, 1 green) the last 10 mm of travel are not accessible, you will need to remove one orange spacer.
    The HBO cones will indeed hit each other if you use less than two spacers on the orange side; this will most likely damage the cones and possibly bend the rebound rod.

  154. #4154
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    Ok, I have looked again at the diagram, the spacers are 1 cm each. For your fork (80-100 Circus) there are only 3 valid configurations:
    4 orange / 2 green - 80mm
    3 orange / 1green - 90mm
    2 orange / 0 green - 100mm

    In your current configuration (4 orange, 1 green) the last 10 mm of travel are not accessible, you will need to remove one orange spacer.
    The HBO cones will indeed hit each other if you use less than two spacers on the orange side; this will most likely damage the cones and possibly bend the rebound rod.
    Hello, otsdr.
    If you correct about orange spacers and travel limitations, will be this experiment correct(and if not - what experiment will be correct to prove that there is some travel limitations) - lower fork pressure and push it to the travel limit by hands, and after that measure travel by rubber band on the leg?
    Thanks

  155. #4155
    mtbr member
    Reputation: otsdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30
    The easiest way to do it is to just connect the pump, there is no need to lower the pressure. While the pump is connected the air can move freely between positive and negative and the fork can be cycled through its travel very easily.

    Don't forget to keep the fork at full extension while disconnecting the pump .

  156. #4156
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    The easiest way to do it is to just connect the pump, there is no need to lower the pressure. While the pump is connected the air can move freely between positive and negative and the fork can be cycled through its travel very easily.

    Don't forget to keep the fork at full extension while disconnecting the pump .
    So, I did this and here is result: rubber on the leg is stopped at 87mm(this is distance between rubber and seal). And there is 2-3mm of travel between rubber and crown.

    Well, i'am tried to push fork hard enough and it is compressed for fully 90mm, but in the end I think i can feel that something rubber has meet some obstacle and last few millimetres of travel was not linear in the mean of compression.

  157. #4157
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewshkovskii View Post
    So, I did this and here is result: rubber on the leg is stopped at 87mm(this is distance between rubber and seal). And there is 2-3mm of travel between rubber and crown.

    Well, i'am tried to push fork hard enough and it is compressed for fully 90mm, but in the end I think i can feel that something rubber has meet some obstacle and last few millimetres of travel was not linear in the mean of compression.
    Again, you are set correctly.

  158. #4158
    mtbr member
    Reputation: otsdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30
    I agree, your current configuration is correct. Probably the LBS moved one of the spacers from the orange side to the green one, making it a 3 orange / 1 green.

  159. #4159
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    I agree, your current configuration is correct. Probably the LBS moved one of the spacers from the orange side to the green one, making it a 3 orange / 1 green.
    They said that they only added one green spacer(they took one of the four spacers that comes with fork). I tend to trust them, I spend 20-30 minutes talking about that situation (and they took only 10$ for travel change )

    I think this could be an error in Manitou manual. Manitou event did not put correct travel change manual with fork Or I just do not understand something.
    But now i can't be fully sure about spacers configuration because I do not know spacers configuration before LBS(and even now), i need to get mattoc tool kit and check that by myself.

    Anyway - thank you, guys, for you help and advices!

  160. #4160
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    I agree, your current configuration is correct. Probably the LBS moved one of the spacers from the orange side to the green one, making it a 3 orange / 1 green.
    The chart is clearly incorrect, the orange spacers should remain 4 at all times.

    If you ran the 100mm set up it shows, you would actually get 120mm. It would extent 20mm farther ( from the removal of 2 green spacers) AND bottom out 20mm deeper( from removal of 2 orange spacers) netting a 40mm total change from the 80mm setting.

    The Bottoming 20mm deeper is impossible
    1, there isn't enough stanchion showing to bottom any deeper. 2, you can't chang the Bottoming point of a fork with hydraulic bottoming cones without changing the cones. If you make it bottom out deeper in the stroke, the cones will it each other, if it bottoms out earlier, the cones will not engage each other and you wont have a correctly functioning HBO circuit.

    The error in the chart is noted, I will look into getting it corrected. For now, know that 4 orange is correct for a 80-100mm version of the fork.

  161. #4161
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewshkovskii View Post
    They said that they only added one green spacer(they took one of the four spacers that comes with fork). I tend to trust them, I spend 20-30 minutes talking about that situation (and they took only 10$ for travel change )

    I think this could be an error in Manitou manual. Manitou event did not put correct travel change manual with fork Or I just do not understand something.
    But now i can't be fully sure about spacers configuration because I do not know spacers configuration before LBS(and even now), i need to get mattoc tool kit and check that by myself.

    Anyway - thank you, guys, for you help and advices!
    No need to take it apart. Again, your set up is correct. Dougal and I are both part of Hayes (owns Manitou), you can trust what either of us tell you.
    Last edited by mullen119; 12-27-2018 at 06:46 AM.

  162. #4162
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Steve.E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    803
    Hey all

    I've had my Mattoc Pro 2 for a year now, done 3 lower services in that time and 2 damper bleeds, I've just got the IRT kit and new seals so I'm going to do a full service tomorrow. I wanted to confirm something first:

    1) When bleeding the damper, the Manitou video says you're supposed to turn the rebound 3 clicks from 'full rebound', is this 3 clicks from full fast rebound (least amount of damping) or 3 clicks from slowest rebound (most amount of damping).

    I can't remember which I've done in the past, but last time it was impossible to get a completely smooth feel when cycling the rebound rod, I seriously did it for about 30 minutes, going very slowly, fast, tapping the stanchion to allow any air bubbles to rise to the top and then waiting for them to dissapear.

    Also:

    2) how many ml of oil are we recommending in the lowers these days?
    3) when compressing my fork and allowing it to rebound there is a slight 'squish' or 'whoosh' sound as the fork rebounds, I usually run my rebound quite fast, is this normal?

    This fork has been wicked on my bike so far, paired with my DVO Topaz it's been a breeze to work on at home and has been fit and forget.

  163. #4163
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve.E View Post
    Hey all

    I've had my Mattoc Pro 2 for a year now, done 3 lower services in that time and 2 damper bleeds, I've just got the IRT kit and new seals so I'm going to do a full service tomorrow. I wanted to confirm something first:

    1) When bleeding the damper, the Manitou video says you're supposed to turn the rebound 3 clicks from 'full rebound', is this 3 clicks from full fast rebound (least amount of damping) or 3 clicks from slowest rebound (most amount of damping).

    I can't remember which I've done in the past, but last time it was impossible to get a completely smooth feel when cycling the rebound rod, I seriously did it for about 30 minutes, going very slowly, fast, tapping the stanchion to allow any air bubbles to rise to the top and then waiting for them to dissapear.
    From full fast.

    You are not really bleeding the damper when you do this, so don't worried about letting the bubbles dissapate. The reason you cycle the rebound damper is to get any large air pocket under the piston to rise so you can properly set the oil height. Air bubbles under the rebound piston will cause the oil height to show higher than it really is under use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve.E View Post

    2) how many ml of oil are we recommending in the lowers these days?

    7cc is spec. You can run up to 10cc before the risk of the damper ingesting oil becomes a issue. Motorex 4t 5w40 full synthetic is spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve.E View Post

    3) when compressing my fork and allowing it to rebound there is a slight 'squish' or 'whoosh' sound as the fork rebounds, I usually run my rebound quite fast, is this normal?
    Manitou uses small low speed port/orifice circuit and shim stacks that actually work. This means oil passes under the shims much more than other damper designs and that can be a little more noisy and is normal. If it's excessively loud, there may be an issue, but if not, that noise is why it works so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve.E View Post
    This fork has been wicked on my bike so far, paired with my DVO Topaz it's been a breeze to work on at home and has been fit and forget.
    Good the hear you are like liking it.

  164. #4164
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Steve.E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    803
    Thank you

  165. #4165
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    70
    Slight OT...

    I have just been doing a service and seal inspect/replace on my dorados as they have been feeling harsh lately, even after my last fluid change so I thought i had buggered the damper bleed or over greased. Turns out i've manged along the way to give my air shaft rod a little nick, which I suspect has been the problem all along. Thoughts on this bleeding between the negative air chamber and the upper leg? On mid sized hits it would be sliding between the air chamber and the upper leg and possibly bleeding air out of the negative chamber. Its sitting about 160mm up from the base of the air piston.

    Ill smooth it out as best i can but it looks like im up for a new air shaft assembly when Dougal is back in the workshop.

    Manitou Mattoc-img_20181229_180847.jpg

    Edit:

    Looks like its manged to chew the DU bush that sits in the air chamber end cap as well.

  166. #4166
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    97
    I am losing confidence in Manitou and in their production tolerances. Mattoc boost that I bought came with quite some play between stanchins and lower legs. Consequently, during any side load, bushings didn't align with stanchions and there was crazy amount of stiction. CSU was also creaking, so my LBS replaced whole fork. (after 5 weeks, because hayes/manitou from germany was non responsive...)

    So, I received a new fork and initially, the problem with the play was not noticeable. But after only 10 minutes, riding in a car park, problem came back again. Play between lowers and stanchios - a lot of stiction on any side loads. Also, I am not that agressive rider and I weigth only 72kg, so fork was not even under a lot of stress.

    If I go back again, and they replace the lowers, what are the odds, that the fork will work properly? I mean, all bottom line forks that I tried (XCTs and XCMs, cheap old RST gilas, RS sektor) didn't have this problem and this one cost me around 700..

    sorry for the rant, but the whole situation put me in the bad mood. :/

  167. #4167
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10
    It seems Manitou has bad QC with the new mattoc 3 series...

    I now have two mattoc 3 boost, one with a creaking csu and one that was already changed by hayes for a new fork but now has scratched stanctions.
    The first fork I bought had fretty bad stiction that was increasing every ride. When I opened it I found aluminum shawings underneath the foam rings, probably from the bushing install.
    I then got new lowers and could not belive that there was the same issue with the replacement lowers! I then demanded a new fork.
    Now after some months of riding there are light scratch marks in the stanction as if the bushings are not smooth on some places. Cheched the oil levels everything ok. Again in service...

    But both my mattoc 3 dont feel nearly as smooth as my old mattoc 1. As in the post above I noticed a lot of stiction under side loadings.

  168. #4168
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    From full fast.

    You are not really bleeding the damper when you do this, so don't worried about letting the bubbles dissapate. The reason you cycle the rebound damper is to get any large air pocket under the piston to rise so you can properly set the oil height. Air bubbles under the rebound piston will cause the oil height to show higher than it really is under use.




    7cc is spec. You can run up to 10cc before the risk of the damper ingesting oil becomes a issue. Motorex 4t 5w40 full synthetic is spec



    Manitou uses small low speed port/orifice circuit and shim stacks that actually work. This means oil passes under the shims much more than other damper designs and that can be a little more noisy and is normal. If it's excessively loud, there may be an issue, but if not, that noise is why it works so well.



    Good the hear you are like liking it.
    Are you still using Fox gold as bath oil? Was about to order the motorex 5/40 but they have like 3 different full synthetics, the 2 stroke, 4 stroke, and something called Boxer

    But then I searched back and saw you mention Fox Gold.

  169. #4169
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by jdang307 View Post
    Are you still using Fox gold as bath oil? Was about to order the motorex 5/40 but they have like 3 different full synthetics, the 2 stroke, 4 stroke, and something called Boxer

    But then I searched back and saw you mention Fox Gold.
    Fox gold (and even better, supergliss) works great as long as the temperature is above about 40f. 4t works best across a broad range of temperatures. Whichever works best for your situation.

    I change oils based on the season

  170. #4170
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Fox gold (and even better, supergliss) works great as long as the temperature is above about 40f. 4t works best across a broad range of temperatures. Whichever works best for your situation.

    I change oils based on the season
    Thank you. The coldest we get here in San Diego is around 40 once every few years and I don't leave the house. . 99% of the time it's above 50F

    Fox Gold it is!

  171. #4171
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    75
    Can somebody check what the exposed stanchion length on a 160mm travel 27.5" Mattoc (Pro) 1 should be? I converted wheel size from 26" to 27.5" and changed the spacers (and HBO cone) according to instructions. However, the travel setting should be the same as 170mm travel 26", with the spacer blocking the last 10mm of travel. I now have 170mm of exposed stanchion. Since the Mattoc in my memory shows 10mm more stanchion than travel, shouldn't it show 180mm in its current setting?

  172. #4172
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Mac1987 View Post
    Can somebody check what the exposed stanchion length on a 160mm travel 27.5" Mattoc (Pro) 1 should be? I converted wheel size from 26" to 27.5" and changed the spacers (and HBO cone) according to instructions. However, the travel setting should be the same as 170mm travel 26", with the spacer blocking the last 10mm of travel. I now have 170mm of exposed stanchion. Since the Mattoc in my memory shows 10mm more stanchion than travel, shouldn't it show 180mm in its current setting?
    Total fork length (and exposed stanchion) is the same for 26-170mm and 27-160mm.

    Measuring a 27-160mm fork here I get 170mm to the lowest point of the crown (inside the leg) and 180mm on the outside (higher point).
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  173. #4173
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    75
    I measured from the inside, so it should be fine then. Thanks for checking! I read several people measuring 180mm for a 26-170, so assumed I was short by 10mm. Apparently they measured the outside (which is illogical, since the fork can't travel past the lowest point on the inside of the leg).

  174. #4174
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    It seems Manitou has bad QC with the new mattoc 3 series...

    I now have two mattoc 3 boost, one with a creaking csu and one that was already changed by hayes for a new fork but now has scratched stanctions.
    The first fork I bought had fretty bad stiction that was increasing every ride. When I opened it I found aluminum shawings underneath the foam rings, probably from the bushing install.
    I then got new lowers and could not belive that there was the same issue with the replacement lowers! I then demanded a new fork.
    Now after some months of riding there are light scratch marks in the stanction as if the bushings are not smooth on some places. Cheched the oil levels everything ok. Again in service...

    But both my mattoc 3 dont feel nearly as smooth as my old mattoc 1. As in the post above I noticed a lot of stiction under side loadings.
    Some Mattoc Boost (aka Mattoc 3) forks have an issue with a top bushing pocket out of round by between 0.05 and 0.1mm. If you have this the fork bushings feel fine out of the box and pass all initial tests, but after hard riding the bushing seals into the out-of-round pocket and the play can be detected.

    Manitou engineers know about it and if your fork is affected it can be sorted under warranty.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  175. #4175
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Some Mattoc Boost (aka Mattoc 3) forks have an issue with a top bushing pocket out of round by between 0.05 and 0.1mm. If you have this the fork bushings feel fine out of the box and pass all initial tests, but after hard riding the bushing seals into the out-of-round pocket and the play can be detected.

    Manitou engineers know about it and if your fork is affected it can be sorted under warranty.

    Thanks for the info.

    Just got a call that my forks are repaired. New legs on one and legs+lowers on the other.
    I must say that manitou service is excellent!

    Hope now they will not fail on me again

  176. #4176
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    410
    Ok, I considering giving my wives Mattoc Expert 27.5 160 a last upgrade to the best config I can get on her Mattoc. She's still not happy with the small bump sensitivity. I've tried different shim configs, upgraded the seals, have the IRT installed.

    What I'm considering is buying a Mattoc pro 26 and frankenstein it into one fork and get the high flow piston and Motorex hydraulic oil from Shockcraft. The 41mm off-set instead of 44mm might be even helpful.


    It must work though otherwise my wife will shoot me.

    I'm also I'm considering lowering it to 150mm from 160mm to increase the negative chamber, but I don't know if this would make enough difference in small bump sensitivity to be worthwhile?


    So basically what would improve small bump sensitivity:
    - Upgrade to the pro dampers
    - High flow piston
    - Thinner oil
    - larger neg. chamber due to 160->150mm


    What do you guys reckon, would it make a lot of difference or is it going to be to minor to bother?

  177. #4177
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    Thanks for the info.

    Just got a call that my forks are repaired. New legs on one and legs+lowers on the other.
    I must say that manitou service is excellent!

    Hope now they will not fail on me again
    I have nov tried my fork and for the first run I could not belive how good it was compared to my fox 36 grip2 worlds better small bump.
    But every run the fork felt a little stiffer. After the 5th run the fork is extremely binding on any side load.
    Any toughts?
    The lowers date code is 18 and A.

    I will chech the bushings for roundness if I can get a ID micrometer and report back.

  178. #4178
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    97
    Yes, I have very similar experience with first and also replaced fork (boost matoc 3). I am not an expert on suspenaion, so I am not sure if this is the case, but to me it feels like the bushings inside the lowers unsit themselfs, become loos and than they are not in perfect contact with the stanchion. As a result, there is play and binding on any side load.

    Another wierd thing is, that there is a sticker on it, "27.5in x 100mm" even though it is a boost version, 110mm.

    I am not able to find any date code on the lowers, but the uppers are dated september 2017.

  179. #4179
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Aresab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,687
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Some Mattoc Boost (aka Mattoc 3) forks have an issue with a top bushing pocket out of round by between 0.05 and 0.1mm. If you have this the fork bushings feel fine out of the box and pass all initial tests, but after hard riding the bushing seals into the out-of-round pocket and the play can be detected.

    Manitou engineers know about it and if your fork is affected it can be sorted under warranty.
    Dougal,
    Are any of the other forks in line affected like the Mattoc 3 above? Looking for another Mastodon for my wife but she does not ride very hard and may not see something for a while.

  180. #4180
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    225
    I have a stock expert and a pro, man the small bump stuff is what I love about it and why I traded my Pike for the Expert (but I am a Clyde). I would go with thinner oil first since its pretty easy and cheap. What grease did you reassemble with? That could cause some drag.

  181. #4181
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Ok, I considering giving my wives Mattoc Expert 27.5 160 a last upgrade to the best config I can get on her Mattoc. She's still not happy with the small bump sensitivity. I've tried different shim configs, upgraded the seals, have the IRT installed.

    What I'm considering is buying a Mattoc pro 26 and frankenstein it into one fork and get the high flow piston and Motorex hydraulic oil from Shockcraft. The 41mm off-set instead of 44mm might be even helpful.


    It must work though otherwise my wife will shoot me.

    I'm also I'm considering lowering it to 150mm from 160mm to increase the negative chamber, but I don't know if this would make enough difference in small bump sensitivity to be worthwhile?


    So basically what would improve small bump sensitivity:
    - Upgrade to the pro dampers
    - High flow piston
    - Thinner oil
    - larger neg. chamber due to 160->150mm


    What do you guys reckon, would it make a lot of difference or is it going to be to minor to bother?
    For most female riders it's not just the difference in weight, but the fact they ride more rearwards and pump the bars less than stronger males do.

    Mrs Dougal runs:
    High Flow piston.
    Softened compression stack (about 60% of stock)
    7cSt oil.
    IRT with 35psi in the bottom and 50psi in the top.

    This is working very well. She still doesn't get full travel often, but that's fine as the response for small to mid stroke is what we were aiming for. The thinner oil is probably the least significant of all the changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    I have nov tried my fork and for the first run I could not belive how good it was compared to my fox 36 grip2 worlds better small bump.
    But every run the fork felt a little stiffer. After the 5th run the fork is extremely binding on any side load.
    Any toughts?
    The lowers date code is 18 and A.

    I will chech the bushings for roundness if I can get a ID micrometer and report back.
    Sounds like the bushings are a shade tight and pushing the lube film off the stanchions. I have a 34.1mm burnishing tool which I twist through the bushings to finally size them and force them to round.

    I highly recommend this treatment for all forks, even if you don't think you have a bushing issue it will help. If you suspect or know you have tight bushings it is a one step cure.

    Quote Originally Posted by s-master View Post
    Yes, I have very similar experience with first and also replaced fork (boost matoc 3). I am not an expert on suspenaion, so I am not sure if this is the case, but to me it feels like the bushings inside the lowers unsit themselfs, become loos and than they are not in perfect contact with the stanchion. As a result, there is play and binding on any side load.

    Another wierd thing is, that there is a sticker on it, "27.5in x 100mm" even though it is a boost version, 110mm.

    I am not able to find any date code on the lowers, but the uppers are dated september 2017.
    If a bushing unseats you will get about 5mm play at the wheel. It's quite rare for a bushing to unseat but extremely noticable if they do.
    Any play in bushings is magnified by the leverage the fork has on them. A 0.15mm oversize bushing can feel enormous at the bars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresab View Post
    Dougal,
    Are any of the other forks in line affected like the Mattoc 3 above? Looking for another Mastodon for my wife but she does not ride very hard and may not see something for a while.
    I have found (and fixed) the same issue in two 32mm forks which had castings updated around the same time.
    The engineers have the problem in hand, but we still need to fix any forks that have the problem.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  182. #4182
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Sounds like the bushings are a shade tight and pushing the lube film off the stanchions. I have a 34.1mm burnishing tool which I twist through the bushings to finally size them and force them to round.

    I highly recommend this treatment for all forks, even if you don't think you have a bushing issue it will help. If you suspect or know you have tight bushings it is a one step cure.
    Where did you get the burnishing tool? Would be a nice addition to my shop. you

  183. #4183
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Where did you get the burnishing tool? Would be a nice addition to my shop. you
    Made it.
    I've got 30, 32, 34, 35 and 36mm burnishing heads for it. It's been invaluable across all brands of fork. Except Marzocchi as their stanchions are a different 35mm to everyone elses!

    I made the shaft small enough that I can also do 28.6mm, but I won't bother making that head until I have the need.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  184. #4184
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mullen119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Made it.
    I've got 30, 32, 34, 35 and 36mm burnishing heads for it. It's been invaluable across all brands of fork. Except Marzocchi as their stanchions are a different 35mm to everyone elses!

    I made the shaft small enough that I can also do 28.6mm, but I won't bother making that head until I have the need.
    I had a feeling that would be your answer.

  185. #4185
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    410
    Quote Originally Posted by kendunn View Post
    I have a stock expert and a pro, man the small bump stuff is what I love about it and why I traded my Pike for the Expert (but I am a Clyde). I would go with thinner oil first since its pretty easy and cheap. What grease did you reassemble with? That could cause some drag.
    Slick Honey. Supergliss in the lowers.

    You feel much difference in small bump between the expert and the pro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    For most female riders it's not just the difference in weight, but the fact they ride more rearwards and pump the bars less than stronger males do.

    Mrs Dougal runs:
    High Flow piston.
    Softened compression stack (about 60% of stock)
    7cSt oil.
    IRT with 35psi in the bottom and 50psi in the top.

    This is working very well. She still doesn't get full travel often, but that's fine as the response for small to mid stroke is what we were aiming for. The thinner oil is probably the least significant of all the changes.

    So you mixed the two corex oils to get the thickness you wanted?

    Does she run it 160mm or less? Would reducing from 160 to 150mm and the resulting larger neg. chamber make much difference or would it be hardly noticeable?


    The forks actually performs quite well in the sense that she rips quite well on it and the faster she goes the more the fork disappears. But the times she's riding at 80% and below the lack of small bump sensitivity makes itself noticeable even if doesn't seem to impact traction that much.


    Do I understand correctly, to upgrade the expert to the pro I would require:

    - Mattoc Pro rebound shaft assembly
    - Either the Pro MC2 HBO Cup OR the whole Pro MC2 compression assembly


    So compression side changing the HBO cup would be sufficient? That would reduce the cost quite a bit.


    Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure.

  186. #4186
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    277
    Speaking of small bump, Adding another data point.

    Rebuilt with WPL oil everywhere (20wt in lowers and air spring, 2.5wt in damper, and light application of thier grease on dust seals/air piston) and fork has never felt better.

    This combined the new dust seals takes mattoc to class leading low stiction imo. Better than my freshly Rebuilt 2018 factory RC2 36.

    I did need to have Manitou replace one of my mattocs a few years back because of bushing bind, it was obvious though. Really felt it when on brakes and hitting large stuff head on.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

  187. #4187
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    So you mixed the two corex oils to get the thickness you wanted?

    Does she run it 160mm or less? Would reducing from 160 to 150mm and the resulting larger neg. chamber make much difference or would it be hardly noticeable?
    I was selling a Hot Oil Clear which was 7 cSt. But we've since killed that product line as I think it caused more confusion than anything else. Shim Stack dampers don't care about oil viscosity until it gets too thick and port effects become large. So for almost all riders our Hot Oil Pink is perfect. If someone needs to go thinner then the Corex options remain.

    Mrs Dougal was running at 26"-170mm setting, just changed it to 27"-160mm but the top-out heights and negative air sizes are the same.

    If you want to try more negative air, just use the pump trick to shorten the fork to 150 or 140mm and see how it goes.
    IMO you're better using IRT to run softer off the top than losing travel in the hope of gaining more negative air.

    Quote Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    The forks actually performs quite well in the sense that she rips quite well on it and the faster she goes the more the fork disappears. But the times she's riding at 80% and below the lack of small bump sensitivity makes itself noticeable even if doesn't seem to impact traction that much.


    Do I understand correctly, to upgrade the expert to the pro I would require:

    - Mattoc Pro rebound shaft assembly
    - Either the Pro MC2 HBO Cup OR the whole Pro MC2 compression assembly


    So compression side changing the HBO cup would be sufficient? That would reduce the cost quite a bit.


    Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure.
    Yes you've got the Expert to pro change details correct. The Pro damper is also more sensitive than the Expert due to not having to flow as much oil through the piston.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  188. #4188
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,762
    re: the rebound piston compression oil flow - in the Mattoc Expert, the rebound side has a "triangle" face shim which I assume is to allow compression oil flow, but there are two round 21mm shims outside a spacer shim, which may restrict it a bit. If I understand how the oil flow works (from the McLeod tuning information posted by Mullen showing the updated rebound shim diameter from 16 to 15mm), is there any chance, by reducing the backing (?) rebound shim diameters, say to 19mm, could that improve oil flow (at least a little) under compression, as a cheap alternative to the Pro damper and high-flow piston upgrades?

  189. #4189
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    re: the rebound piston compression oil flow - in the Mattoc Expert, the rebound side has a "triangle" face shim which I assume is to allow compression oil flow, but there are two round 21mm shims outside a spacer shim, which may restrict it a bit. If I understand how the oil flow works (from the McLeod tuning information posted by Mullen showing the updated rebound shim diameter from 16 to 15mm), is there any chance, by reducing the backing (?) rebound shim diameters, say to 19mm, could that improve oil flow (at least a little) under compression, as a cheap alternative to the Pro damper and high-flow piston upgrades?
    The biggest difference is the ratio of piston to shaft.
    Pro has a 16mm piston and 10mm shaft. So the shaft fills more of the volume behind the piston and less oil is required to flow through it.
    Expert is around 31mm piston and 12.7mm shaft. So the piston has to flow comparatively more.

    It's complicated to explain. But it's a real challenge to prevent the rebound bypass producing more damping than you want at high shaft speeds and smaller rebound pistons help that greatly. Which is why pretty much everyone does that in their high end forks.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  190. #4190
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    410
    Super. Order comming shortly.

  191. #4191
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Sounds like the bushings are a shade tight and pushing the lube film off the stanchions. I have a 34.1mm burnishing tool which I twist through the bushings to finally size them and force them to round.

    I highly recommend this treatment for all forks, even if you don't think you have a bushing issue it will help. If you suspect or know you have tight bushings it is a one step cure.



    If a bushing unseats you will get about 5mm play at the wheel. It's quite rare for a bushing to unseat but extremely noticable if they do.
    Any play in bushings is magnified by the leverage the fork has on them. A 0.15mm oversize bushing can feel enormous at the bars.



    I have found (and fixed) the same issue in two 32mm forks which had castings updated around the same time.
    The engineers have the problem in hand, but we still need to fix any forks that have the problem.
    Im angry!
    Again aluminum particles in the lowers arround the bushings!
    What are they doing!? This is now the third time I got lowers with alu particles inside.
    Also angry at myselt that I didnt pull them off and cleaned them before the first ride. Should have known better

    The photos show both sides. On one side the bushings look clean but on the other side there seem to be alu particles stuck in the bushing coating.

    Shoul I get them changed again? for the fourth time....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Manitou Mattoc-3357da8f-b7d1-4338-97cf-e763495e77eb.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-1c34f61e-4d19-40e1-918d-3bb2aa14dfb4.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-4117a335-a67f-435d-9062-ac878bf6b4f3.jpg  

    Manitou Mattoc-5e44a01c-3553-4a2e-8a04-eaf1f2243df4.jpg  


  192. #4192
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Run your fingernail over those things in the bushing surface. Are they embedded particles or holes?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  193. #4193
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10
    Definitely embedded particles. I ran my fingernail over it and could scratch some of them out. And if I poin a light from the side I can see them protruding from the surface of the bushing. There is a lot of loose particles arround the edge of the bushing.

  194. #4194
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    10
    Just cleaned the lowers and the oil was full of shiny particles.
    I have access to a ultrasonic cleaner. What do you think would it clean the particles from the bushings?

  195. #4195
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,424
    Quote Originally Posted by lukam View Post
    Just cleaned the lowers and the oil was full of shiny particles.
    I have access to a ultrasonic cleaner. What do you think would it clean the particles from the bushings?
    I think you'll have to pull any particles from the bushings yourself. Easy for the top ones, hard for the bottom.

    I would get in contact with manitou again. They will sort this out and want to know why and how it happened.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  196. #4196
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    193
    Anyone know if there are different versions of the IRT?

    I'm trying to move it from my Mattoc 2 Pro to my Mattoc Plus Expert, and the piston doesn't seem to be fitting down into the stanchion. I didn't want to damage the piston o-ring by pushing too hard without knowing for sure that it should it should not fit!

  197. #4197
    mtbr member
    Reputation: otsdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    30
    The kit seems to be the same for both Pro and Expert ( https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...-expert-634414 ). You should lightly grease the piston o-ring and the shaft anyway, once you do that it should be easier to install.

  198. #4198
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    193
    Quote Originally Posted by otsdr View Post
    The kit seems to be the same for both Pro and Expert ( https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...-expert-634414 ). You should lightly grease the piston o-ring and the shaft anyway, once you do that it should be easier to install.
    Crap, I had seen that too, and thought it should fit based on that, but I just realized that I have the Mattoc Plus comp, not Expert. I keep confusing the comp and expert. The exploded view of my fork doesn't list the IRT as an option either. Dang.

  199. #4199
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    172

  200. #4200
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,751
    Quote Originally Posted by RoboS View Post
    What exactly is it? A different O-ring that has less friction?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

Similar Threads

  1. Manitou Minute vs Manitou R7?
    By Numbtoyou in forum Shocks and Suspension
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 04-19-2015, 04:25 PM
  2. Beta on the Mattoc?
    By half_man_half_scab in forum Shocks and Suspension
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 03-05-2014, 08:50 PM
  3. Anybody has any riding time on a Manitou Mattoc?
    By Relayden in forum Shocks and Suspension
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-30-2014, 07:20 PM
  4. Revelation or wait for Manitou Mattoc??
    By stumpynerd in forum Specialized
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-22-2013, 09:25 AM
  5. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-20-2013, 09:02 PM

Members who have read this thread: 352

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.