Manitou Mattoc

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  • 07-07-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J: View Post
    We can bug him untill this is available, who else is in:)...expert gets a little ruff down heavy chunk above @80psi

    Flying over to take care of all my other day to day work would sure speed things up!
  • 07-08-2017
    phile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    well, it's 160mm by default. so if you want some other travel, set that now.

    Seems like a reasonable place to start--thanks! I won't bother to crack it open if there's no need to top off fluids, check nuts and bolts, make sure it came with x part instead of y part, or whatever. To get 170mm for a 26" wheel, can I just unclip a spacer from the rod? I will certainly try that out at some point.

    I found the Mattoc baseline set-up sheet, so I will start with settings from that. Should I expect a lot of change over the first 20 "break in" hours of riding?
  • 07-08-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phile View Post
    Seems like a reasonable place to start--thanks! I won't bother to crack it open if there's no need to top off fluids, check nuts and bolts, make sure it came with x part instead of y part, or whatever. To get 170mm for a 26" wheel, can I just unclip a spacer from the rod? I will certainly try that out at some point.

    I found the Mattoc baseline set-up sheet, so I will start with settings from that. Should I expect a lot of change over the first 20 "break in" hours of riding?

    There is no spacer under the bottom out bumper in 26" mode. To go to 170, you need to remove a spacer from under the air piston.

    I don't notice much of a break in with manitou stuff. It's usually pretty smooth on the first ride.
  • 07-10-2017
    fsrxc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I can't recall offhand the details of that stack. Removing one shim will work, but you may have fatigue issues with the single shim bending too far.
    That's not the end of the world though. If you have two, remove one and it breaks then you do have a spare!

    More ideal is similar number of softer (thinner) shims as thinner shims can flex further for the same stress. Negating the fatigue issue.

    Damping wise a softer shim stack is better than thinner oil. Shims react to oil pressure (shaft force) which means they self regulate to an extent when oil thickens and thins with temperature. Thinner oil to reduce damping generally means more oil through the orifice bypass where you really want more through the piston and ports.

    Since the stock shims are ~0.15mm thick, are they "thin" as far as fatigue is concerned, or would 0.1mm shims be that much better?
    I'm not having much luck sourcing 0.1mm shims locally, and shipping costs from US and Aus sites are crazy ($20+ for a few shims)
  • 07-10-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    Since the stock shims are ~0.15mm thick, are they "thin" as far as fatigue is concerned, or would 0.1mm shims be that much better?
    I'm not having much luck sourcing 0.1mm shims locally, and shipping costs from US and Aus sites are crazy ($20+ for a few shims)

    A 0.15mm shim is ~3.4x stiffer than a 0.1mm shim but when flexed the same amount experiences 1.5x more stress.

    So if you like the result but it eventually fails, then replace it with 3-4 0.1mm shims.
  • 07-12-2017
    Boom King
    Is the only difference between a Mattoc Pro 2 26 and 27.5 (aside from the HBO cone) the offset?
  • 07-12-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Boom King View Post
    Is the only difference between a Mattoc Pro 2 26 and 27.5 (aside from the HBO cone) the offset?

    Yes.
  • 07-12-2017
    Boom King
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yes.

    Thanks Dougal,

    No real drama running 27.5 then, with a cone change and is the 27.5 cone readily available?
  • 07-12-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Boom King View Post
    Thanks Dougal,

    No real drama running 27.5 then, with a cone change and is the 27.5 cone readily available?

    It's that simple. Change the cone (longer is 27"), put a 10mm spacer under the B/O bumper on the air side and you're done.
  • 07-12-2017
    Boom King
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It's that simple. Change the cone (longer is 27"), put a 10mm spacer under the B/O bumper on the air side and you're done.

    Spacers and cones available as spares?
  • 07-12-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Boom King View Post
    Spacers and cones available as spares?

    Yep. https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mattoc-...t-manitou.html
  • 07-12-2017
    Deerhill
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Flying over to take care of all my other day to day work would sure speed things up!

    Seriously going to look into what's needed (got some van yellows to try out next month)...apparently the chunk is causing 2nd loose hs from steerer/stem slippage...new stem to tide me over untill the coil goes in :)
  • 07-13-2017
    CS645
    7 Attachment(s)
    So did another service on my wives Mattoc:

    I took some shots of the Expert damper, don't know if it is any use to anyone.

    Seals were too old so one leg had barely any bath oil in it. And quite a bit of oil in the negative air chamber (old air piston unfortunately). For now I put some slickhoney on and 2cc of supergliss. Next service will see the new piston (and the new seals and hopefully a light tune shimstack! ;) )

    Damper oil again like last year completely clean. I wonder if it is actually any use to refill the damper each year, I can't tell it from the new I poured in, it's that clean.

    Attachment 1146341

    The spring was slightly out of place. Repositioned it and the clicking sound at top out was gone.
    Attachment 1146342

    Attachment 1146345

    Attachment 1146343

    Attachment 1146344

    A bit of a mess, I admit, but for the moment I only have our kitchen table!
    Attachment 1146346

    And the bikes reunited again.
    Attachment 1146347
  • 07-13-2017
    croakies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    So did another service on my wives Mattoc:

    I took some shots of the Expert damper, don't know if it is any use to anyone.

    Seals were too old so one leg had barely any bath oil in it. And quite a bit of oil in the negative air chamber (old air piston unfortunately). For now I put some slickhoney on and 2cc of supergliss. Next service will see the new piston (and the new seals and hopefully a light tune shimstack! ;) )

    Damper oil again like last year completely clean. I wonder if it is actually any use to refill the damper each year, I can't tell it from the new I poured in, it's that clean.

    Attachment 1146341

    The spring was slightly out of place. Repositioned it and the clicking sound at top out was gone.
    Attachment 1146342

    Attachment 1146345

    Attachment 1146343

    Attachment 1146344

    A bit of a mess, I admit, but for the moment I only have our kitchen table!
    Attachment 1146346

    And the bikes reunited again.
    Attachment 1146347

    Thanks for sharing! Are you doing a light tune for compression or rebound?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
  • 07-13-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Thanks for sharing! Are you doing a light tune for compression or rebound?

    Well my wife at 66kg ride weight finds herself more on the extreme end of the compression side (open), rather than the rebound side which seems to have enough range.

    But I'm no expert on such things so it would depend on Dougal doing his magic. ;)
  • 07-13-2017
    Samos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Well my wife at 66kg ride weight finds herself more on the extreme end of the compression side (open), rather than the rebound side which seems to have enough range.

    But I'm no expert on such things so it would depend on Dougal doing his magic. ;)

    What is that for a fender ? Seems to fit nicely!
  • 07-13-2017
    CS645
    Yes it's by far the best fitting on the Mattoc I've had so far. Curves under the arch perfect. It is compatible with both front and reverse arch. Crazy bit is it only costs 3,-

    Unfortunately for non-EU it's from the Decathlon house brand B-twin:

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/flash-mt...d_8327776.html


    The one on the bike in the back is a Marsh guard which doesn't at all fit as well. I should replace it with the B-twin as well.
  • 07-13-2017
    Samos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Yes it's by far the best fitting on the Mattoc I've had so far. Curves under the arch perfect. It is compatible with both front and reverse arch. Crazy bit is it only costs 3,-

    Unfortunately for non-EU it's from the Decathlon house brand B-twin:

    https://www.decathlon.co.uk/flash-mt...d_8327776.html


    The one on the bike in the back is a Marsh guard which doesn't at all fit as well. I should replace it with the B-twin as well.

    Thanks. As I leave in Switzerland it's a good news !
  • 07-14-2017
    gregnash

    [emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji7][emoji7]
  • 07-15-2017
    PUNKY
    So will a 170mm 29er exist?
  • 07-15-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PUNKY View Post
    So will a 170mm 29er exist?

    180mm 29" is Dorado territory.
  • 07-16-2017
    CS645
    What is the best approach regarding the bushings (I'm continuously learning here)?

    - Top one slickhoney, cause it's harder for the supergliss to get passed the bottom bushing?

    - Both bushings slickhoney?

    - No slickhoney on either, supergliss does the lubrication?
  • 07-16-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    What is the best approach regarding the bushings (I'm continuously learning here)?

    - Top one slickhoney, cause it's harder for the supergliss to get passed the bottom bushing?

    - Both bushings slickhoney?

    - No slickhoney on either, supergliss does the lubrication?

    Slickoleum/SlickHoney on the top bushing and seal, soak the foam ring with bath oil (new seals have foam rings).
    Then oil in the bottom and go riding.

    Greasing up the top bushing makes a big difference in that first ride. After that it all settles out.
  • 07-16-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Slickoleum/SlickHoney on the top bushing and seal, soak the foam ring with bath oil (new seals have foam rings).
    Then oil in the bottom and go riding.

    Greasing up the top bushing makes a big difference in that first ride. After that it all settles out.

    Awesome! :thumbsup:
  • 07-16-2017
    gregnash
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PUNKY View Post
    So will a 170mm 29er exist?

    Doesn't look like it looking at the Mattoc 2 page on the website... Looks like 27.5+/29 will be limited to 150 or 160mm (says 120 to 140 but we all know that probably ain't true). Only thing that most will not like about the 29er is it is Boost only, which is fine by me as I will just grab an MRP or WT boostinator for my DT350 front I have sitting in a box.
  • 07-16-2017
    PUNKY
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    180mm 29" is Dorado territory.

    yeah. Too bad about the offset amount.
  • 07-16-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Doesn't look like it looking at the Mattoc 2 page on the website... Looks like 27.5+/29 will be limited to 150 or 160mm (says 120 to 140 but we all know that probably ain't true). Only thing that most will not like about the 29er is it is Boost only, which is fine by me as I will just grab an MRP or WT boostinator for my DT350 front I have sitting in a box.

    Everything I have seen points to 140mm max for the 27.5+/29 mattoc. There may be some room to stretch it to 150, but not that will be sanctioned by Manitou.

    It's basically a magnum 27.5+, but with a few tweaks to make it fit the specs manitou requires for a 29" fork. (Tire clearances at bottom out while keeping a fully functional HBO circuit )
  • 07-17-2017
    gregnash
    Wonder if Manitou has something in the works for a Long Travel 29er fork (up to 160mm) or maybe that is the next revision of the Mattoc Pro2.
  • 07-17-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Wonder if Manitou has something in the works for a Long Travel 29er fork (up to 160mm) or maybe that is the next revision of the Mattoc Pro2.

    It's unlikely to happen in the near future unless an oem contract was to come about.

    I personally don't get it, but I'm sure they have a reason why it hasn't happened yet. Manitou is a great company, with some great employees. They make some questionable decisions though. The press release for the new mattocs was terrible, and gave no information about the fork. They desperately need to hire a PR person.
  • 07-17-2017
    gregnash
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    It's unlikely to happen in the near future unless an oem contract was to come about.

    I personally don't get it, but I'm sure they have a reason why it hasn't happened yet. Manitou is a great company, with some great employees. They make some questionable decisions though. The press release for the new mattocs was terrible, and gave no information about the fork. They desperately need to hire a PR person.

    Well, honestly I would rather them have a terrible Press Release because they are using John in the warehouse to write it which translates into savings for me vs. paying someone's salary to write super-duper Press Releases and increase the cost of their products. Also, it took what, 4yrs for the 29er version of the Mattoc to be released (close to 5yrs) so maybe down the road a bit.
  • 07-17-2017
    Aglo
    I have been waiting for this fork, just going to wait for the price to lower a bit and this is going to be my next upgrade.
    I have a Pike RCT3 140mm on another bike but I'm a fanboy of Manitou so I wanted to get a Mattoc 140mm to be matchy matchy with my shocks :).
  • 07-17-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Well, honestly I would rather them have a terrible Press Release because they are using John in the warehouse to write it which translates into savings for me vs. paying someone's salary to write super-duper Press Releases and increase the cost of their products. Also, it took what, 4yrs for the 29er version of the Mattoc to be released (close to 5yrs) so maybe down the road a bit.

    I hear ya on a lower price, but the lack of info is annoying (even though I already know 90% of it). The lack of giving travel configurations for each size is unacceptable. No mention of the jack seat post as aftermarket or the minute/marvel rolling into the markhor/machete is also a bad move. The idea is to sell products, not confuse the costumers. I should volunteer to write the press releases.
  • 07-17-2017
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I hear ya on a lower price, but the lack of info is annoying (even though I already know 90% of it). The lack of giving travel configurations for each size is unacceptable. No mention of the jack seat post as aftermarket or the minute/marvel rolling into the markhor/machete is also a bad move. The idea is to sell products, not confuse the costumers. I should volunteer to write the press releases.

    Yes, I think you should be in charge of the press releases, to keep all of the costume designers un-confused ;-)
  • 07-18-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Yes, I think you should be in charge of the press releases, to keep all of the costume designers un-confused ;-)

    Hahahaha, that's what happens when I write replies grom my phone I guess 😂😂😂
  • 07-18-2017
    patrick2cents
    Hey all, has anyone run across a Manitou expert that had a green sticker on the box, but only 4 rebound settings? A buddy an I bought a pair of them (he's building up a bike, I'm just putting a new fork on mine) and mine had 8 rebound clicks, and his only had 4. They both have about the same amount of rotation on the rebound knob (about half a turn).

    I know the air spring was supposed to be updated on the boxes with a green sticker, as well as the rebound settings. Any other way to confirm the forks were/were not updated with new internals?
  • 07-18-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by patrick2cents View Post
    Hey all, has anyone run across a Manitou expert that had a green sticker on the box, but only 4 rebound settings? A buddy an I bought a pair of them (he's building up a bike, I'm just putting a new fork on mine) and mine had 8 rebound clicks, and his only had 4. They both have about the same amount of rotation on the rebound knob (about half a turn).

    I know the air spring was supposed to be updated on the boxes with a green sticker, as well as the rebound settings. Any other way to confirm the forks were/were not updated with new internals?

    Isn't the green sticker for the air piston upgrade?
  • 07-18-2017
    Dougal
    So I fitted the new low-friction wiper seals last night and went for a test ride. It was about 2C. I also used a new, thinner, lube oil that I'm testing for cold weather.

    Big improvement. The fork feels smoother and slides better at that 2C than the 2 piece seals did at 20C. Which is no surprise as they were designed and tested for the Mastodon to work in -15C.

    But forks usually feel great after a service with fresh lube on the bushings. So I'll see how this progresses over the next few rides. I am confident but I also need to test things for myself.

    These aren't shipping to normal people yet.

    The older 2 piece seals worked very well for me keeping oil in and debris out. But they did get noticably tighter in the cold and also in between servicing. Manitou claims less friction than SKF 34mm seals and so far it's true.
  • 07-18-2017
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So I fitted the new low-friction wiper seals last night and went for a test ride. It was about 2C. I also used a new, thinner, lube oil that I'm testing for cold weather.

    Big improvement. The fork feels smoother and slides better at that 2C than the 2 piece seals did at 20C. Which is no surprise as they were designed and tested for the Mastodon to work in -15C.

    But forks usually feel great after a service with fresh lube on the bushings. So I'll see how this progresses over the next few rides. I am confident but I also need to test things for myself.

    These aren't shipping to normal people yet.

    The older 2 piece seals worked very well for me keeping oil in and debris out. But they did get noticably tighter in the cold and also in between servicing. Manitou claims less friction than SKF 34mm seals and so far it's true.

    So in your opinion what you are feeling is more the seals, or the lighter oil? Or a combo of the two?

    Its crazy that the Mattoc can feel better - I am loving mine, and I haven't even installed an IRT on mine yet.
  • 07-18-2017
    Deerhill
    Green sticker, on the 26" one, marked the updated air spring seal
  • 07-18-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    So in your opinion what you are feeling is more the seals, or the lighter oil? Or a combo of the two?

    This is the bit where I want to test furthur. But riding time is already limited over winter so I had to short cut the full experiment.

    I don't yet know how thick is too thick for lube oil. It basically adds to the damping. My Nixon with Supergliss still works great in winter. But will it work better with thinner bath oil?

    Too early to tell.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Its crazy that the Mattoc can feel better - I am loving mine, and I haven't even installed an IRT on mine yet.

    Yesterday I found myself adding LSC on a flat trail to give it some trail feel and feedback. Something I've never had to do on the Mattoc before. I am running coil spring. But still.
  • 07-19-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    So I fitted the new low-friction wiper seals last night and went for a test ride. It was about 2C. I also used a new, thinner, lube oil that I'm testing for cold weather.

    Big improvement. The fork feels smoother and slides better at that 2C than the 2 piece seals did at 20C. Which is no surprise as they were designed and tested for the Mastodon to work in -15C.

    But forks usually feel great after a service with fresh lube on the bushings. So I'll see how this progresses over the next few rides. I am confident but I also need to test things for myself.

    Sounds good!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The older 2 piece seals worked very well for me keeping oil in and debris out. But they did get noticably tighter in the cold and also in between servicing. Manitou claims less friction than SKF 34mm seals and so far it's true.

    I agree on the sealing quality of the original seals hich was very good (except if you leave them on too long like I did). But still lowers and bushings look very good.

    Can't wait to try the new ones once available. I suppose they have to make them available at some point for Mastodon customers anyway.
  • 07-19-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Sounds good!



    I agree on the sealing quality of the original seals hich was very good (except if you leave them on too long like I did). But still lowers and bushings look very good.

    Can't wait to try the new ones once available. I suppose they have to make them available at some point for Mastodon customers anyway.

    The seals are on all 34mm manitou forks from this point forward, not just the mastodon.

    Lab testing showed a significant decrease in friction over the Skf seals, while passing all contamination tests. So less friction and better sealing.....

    Those of us running Skf seals know the jump they made over the stock 2 piece seals on friction. The gap is similar between the new seals and the Skf seals. They are that much smoother.

    My point, as I stated a few pages back, is buy the new seals. Not sure when they will be available online, but shops should be able to order any time now
  • 07-20-2017
    Stratus
    Ill hold out for those then, maybe I'll try the Fox/SKF 34 once more, or Racing Bros if they don't hold out that long.

    Great deal for Euro bikers!https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content...0,2,121;page=3
    Very tempting I must say... But other things seem to take priority. :(
  • 07-20-2017
    nikon255
    does the mattoc pro 2 2016 with gold stanchion got any well known major problems?

    whats the difference between pro and pro 2?
  • 07-20-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    does the mattoc pro 2 2016 with gold stanchion got any well known major problems?

    Not that I know.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    whats the difference between pro and pro 2?

    If I remember correctly the 2 has the IVA kit and the Allen key through axle as standard.

    Legacy models can be found here:
    https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/legacy/
  • 07-20-2017
    nikon255
    [QUOTE=Dougal;13253683]I am running coil spring./QUOTE]

    In mattoc?
  • 07-20-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I am running coil spring.

    In mattoc?

    Yeah. But it's all custom. Not anything easy or ready for sale. Sorry.
  • 07-20-2017
    Deerhill
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    ... it's all custom. Not anything easy

    Did you use the stock top cap at least?
  • 07-20-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J: View Post
    Did you use the stock top cap at least?

    Yep.
  • 07-20-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Not that I know.



    If I remember correctly the 2 has the IVA kit and the Allen key through axle as standard.

    Legacy models can be found here:
    https://www.manitoumtb.com/products/legacy/

    This is correct. Slight tune change between the 2 as well. Overall, not huge differences.
  • 07-20-2017
    Dougal
  • 07-20-2017
    Kiwiplague
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    And ordered! Just a quick query, with the new seals, is the oil seal removed on install or left in place?
  • 07-20-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    And ordered! Just a quick query, with the new seals, is the oil seal removed on install or left in place?

    Oil seal and it's retaining clip are gone.
  • 07-20-2017
    thedrizzle
    Does anybody know if the CSU with black stanchions is available for sale?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 07-20-2017
    nikon255
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yeah. But it's all custom. Not anything easy or ready for sale. Sorry.

    you are my hero :D A little bit of lather and you are ready to go. At least could you tell what fork spring fits there? Mattoc should have longer stanchion than pike, so it should be easier to order a custom spring in proper lenght and stroke.
  • 08-02-2017
    nikon255
    mattoc pro 2. 40/80 psi with irt. rebound +0-2. When compressed fork about 1cm and lift front theres top out like on the movie. When pushed deeper than 1cm theres no top out clunk. Anybody know fix for this?

    - air valve adjusted, air spring fills properly. Before use made air spring service with grease only
    - no pressure builded up in lowers
    - no pressure builded up in damper

    Rebound on +3 make it quiet, but even mattoc guide tells to use +0-2 on rebound for my weight 70kg.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqw38bOqRCk
  • 08-02-2017
    devnull
    I have a magnum pro 27.5 @ 140mm but intend on using it with a 29er 2.4 wheel. Any reason I should opt/wait for the Mattoc 2 Pro 27.5+/29 version?
  • 08-02-2017
    scar4me
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    mattoc pro 2. 40/80 psi with irt. rebound +0-2. When compressed fork about 1cm and lift front theres top out like on the movie. When pushed deeper than 1cm theres no top out clunk. Anybody know fix for this?

    - air valve adjusted, air spring fills properly. Before use made air spring service with grease only
    - no pressure builded up in lowers
    - no pressure builded up in damper

    Rebound on +3 make it quiet, but even mattoc guide tells to use +0-2 on rebound for my weight 70kg.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqw38bOqRCk

    Sounds odd.
    Can you check the damper oil level, and reset it at full extension?
    It could be that the damper was closed up slightly compressed, so it's actually under slight vacuum at full extension.
    This would unbalance the air springs initial small stroke rebound response.
    But as soon as enough stroke has pushed oil past the piston the rebound pressure counters it and controls it correctly.

    Other things that can unbalance it:
    Vacuum in the lowers when bolting the air shaft without fully extending the lowers.
    Poppet valve position, can cause air chambers to not fill equally.
    Bad fitting pump, can have the same symptom as poppet valve where it doesn't fill equally.

    None of the above would cause the rebound knocking on small initial stroke though.
  • 08-03-2017
    nikon255
    May you are right. Made damper rebuild and top out sound is gone. Had only RS 2,5wt oil. Now I can hear rebound damping hiss on this small stroke even when rebound totally backed off. Last time bike was carried upside down for few days, maybe thats the reason? Shouldnt it bleed the damper during usage?
  • 08-03-2017
    scar4me
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    May you are right. Made damper rebuild and top out sound is gone. Had only RS 2,5wt oil. Now I can hear rebound damping hiss on this small stroke even when rebound totally backed off. Last time bike was carried upside down for few days, maybe thats the reason? Shouldnt it bleed the damper during usage?

    Yes, the damper is open bath so the air can travel around if not stored upright.
    But it does self bleed the air up to above the top piston without much movement (e.g. 1 or 2 strokes).
    The whole point of the closed cell foam above the compression damper is to compensate for the shaft displacement so you can have minimal air in the damper anyway.

    That oil might be the problem!
    RS 2.5wt only has a cST of 10.75, and standard mattoc damper oil is cST 15.
    So it could well be that your oil weigh is that little bit too light for the shimstack making it noisy.
  • 08-03-2017
    nikon255
    Im only 150lbs. Even when rebound backed off feels like it could be faster (on stock oil). We'll see. Anyway need to buy proper oil. I hope 10,75 cSt wont blow up the damper, right? :)

    With hearing hiss I meant even 1cm of stroke is damped. Before service there was no damping hiss, so it was undamper and this causes knock.
  • 08-03-2017
    Mac1987
    Updated air piston
    Could somebody tell me whether the green sticker on the box with the text "accepted" means an updated air piston or is this just something coming from QC or customs?

    Also, when changing pressure of the main or IRT chamber, does one first deflate both chambers or can they be altered individually?
  • 08-03-2017
    Kiwiplague
    Inflate the irt chamber to the required pressure first, then the main air chambers.
    Pretty sure the green sticker means the the air piston is the newer version.
  • 08-03-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Im only 150lbs. Even when rebound backed off feels like it could be faster (on stock oil). We'll see. Anyway need to buy proper oil. I hope 10,75 cSt wont blow up the damper, right? :)

    With hearing hiss I meant even 1cm of stroke is damped. Before service there was no damping hiss, so it was undamper and this causes knock.

    Change to the newer seals and your rebound will speed up.

    Seriously.
  • 08-03-2017
    nikon255
    I have to wait till new seals will pop up in european stores.
  • 08-03-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    I have to wait till new seals will pop up in european stores.

    Why wait?

    https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodo...t-manitou.html
  • 08-04-2017
    Mac1987
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Inflate the irt chamber to the required pressure first, then the main air chambers.
    Pretty sure the green sticker means the the air piston is the newer version.

    Thanks for the reply.
    Just to be sure I understand this correctly:
    After initial setup, when making small adjustments to the air pressure of either the main or IRT chamber, one has to start from empty again?

    Also, the person that had contact with Hayes about the updated piston wrote about a green 'dot' on the label. Mine has a large green sticker with the text 'accepted' printed on it. Is this indeed the same?
  • 08-04-2017
    nikon255
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Are you kidding? Shipping will costs more than seals. Better release coil kit then I take both at once :)
  • 08-04-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Are you kidding? Shipping will costs more than seals. Better release coil kit then I take both at once :)

    The website will tell you exactly how much shipping is. I've got a lot of other projects ahead of coils unfortunately.
  • 08-04-2017
    nikon255
    Too bad. How is coil according to stock dorado spring? I'd like to know opinion of experienced guy :)
  • 08-04-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mac1987 View Post
    Thanks for the reply.
    Just to be sure I understand this correctly:
    After initial setup, when making small adjustments to the air pressure of either the main or IRT chamber, one has to start from empty again?

    What you don't want is the IRT piston to move when inflating the chambers. That means the pressure in the IRT needs to always remain higher than in the main chamber so the IRT piston will always be fully extented.

    For instance say your main pressure is 55psi and IRT is 110. It the doesn't matter if you first change main chamber to 60 psi or the IRT to 105 PSI. Pressure in the IRT will always be higher, the IRT piston will stay fully extended and the pressure in the chambers will be exactly what you put in.

    However. Say you have 55 PSI in both the IRT and the main chamber (not a very useful pressure distribution, but just to explain). So say I would want the main chamber to have 60 PSI and the IRT 120. If I would first increase the main chamber to 60 PSI the IRT volume would reduce and main chamber would increase. If you would then put 120PSI in the IRT chamber the piston would extend back again, main chamber volume would decrease and it's pressure would not be the 60 PSI you wanted any more but higher.

    So you always want to make sure the IRT pressure is higher than main chamber pressure and then the order of changing pressure doesn't matter as long if the above condition is met. If you inflate the fork with IRT the first time you start with the IRT to make sure the IRT piston is fully extended and stays there during inflation.

    That's the way I reckon it works, Dougal or Mullen can probably confirm.
  • 08-04-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Too bad. How is coil according to stock dorado spring? I'd like to know opinion of experienced guy :)

    Softer and more sensitive initial rate. Firmer mid stroke with better support. End about the same.

    Small bump response is ridiculous with the new seals.
  • 08-04-2017
    phreeky
    Is there any issue with just leaving the fork on the bike, leaving the fork pressurised, and pulling the damper from the top to just check oil level and remove a bit if needed?
  • 08-04-2017
    Kiwiplague
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phreeky View Post
    Is there any issue with just leaving the fork on the bike, leaving the fork pressurised, and pulling the damper from the top to just check oil level and remove a bit if needed?

    I've done exactly that, just had to make sure the fork was perpendicular to the ground so that I could get an accurate measurement on the oil height. Having any sort of tilt is going to make measuring the height a bit tricky.
  • 08-04-2017
    Mac1987
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    What you don't want is the IRT piston to move when inflating the chambers. That means the pressure in the IRT needs to always remain higher than in the main chamber so the IRT piston will always be fully extented.

    ----

    So you always want to make sure the IRT pressure is higher than main chamber pressure and then the order of changing pressure doesn't matter as long if the above condition is met. If you inflate the fork with IRT the first time you start with the IRT to make sure the IRT piston is fully extended and stays there during inflation.

    That's the way I reckon it works, Dougal or Mullen can probably confirm.

    Ok thanks, seems logical.
    However, would increasing the pressure in the IRT chamber not also increase pressure in the main chamber, since the IRT is pressing against the main?
  • 08-04-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mac1987 View Post
    Ok thanks, seems logical.
    However, would increasing the pressure in the IRT chamber not also increase pressure in the main chamber, since the IRT is pressing against the main?

    Not if the pressure in the IRT was already higher before, because then the IRT is already fully extended and is pushing against it's stop and won't extend further by increasing pressure so won't reduce volume of the main chamber.
  • 08-04-2017
    phreeky
    Well I'm impatient, I just did it. There was def too much in there, now getting full travel.
  • 08-04-2017
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phreeky View Post
    Is there any issue with just leaving the fork on the bike, leaving the fork pressurised, and pulling the damper from the top to just check oil level and remove a bit if needed?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phreeky View Post
    Well I'm impatient, I just did it. There was def too much in there, now getting full travel.

    No issue at all. Both times I had an overfull damper it was because of migration from the bath oil. Both times I didn't have time to fully service the fork, so I opened the damper as you did, dumped the damper oil and refilled to the correct height. As soon as I could after - a few days - I dropped the lowers and added bath oil.
  • 08-04-2017
    nikon255
    Mine also sucked in almost all bath oil. Wtf?
  • 08-04-2017
    phreeky
    Well I'm planning on doing a lowers service shortly anyway, already have the dust seals sitting here. However this brings me to my next question - if that happens, which seal is letting it past, and therefore which one do I buy?
  • 08-04-2017
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Mine also sucked in almost all bath oil. Wtf?

    well that's why Manitou's new guidance is 7.5ml of bath oil. I haven't tried replacing the rebound seal head but I haven't had issues recently.
  • 08-04-2017
    POAH
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Are you kidding? Shipping will costs more than seals. Better release coil kit then I take both at once :)




    35 posted to the UK
  • 08-04-2017
    gregnash
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Softer and more sensitive initial rate. Firmer mid stroke with better support. End about the same.

    Small bump response is ridiculous with the new seals.

    Dougal, any news on when the Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29er will be available? Showing on the website as updated but have not seen it posted any where for sale. Seems like everyone is clearing out 2017 models, assuming to make room for this.
  • 08-04-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by POAH View Post
    35 posted to the UK

    Mine arrived from shockcraft this evening, 10,- euro's postage to the Netherlands. That's about the same as inter Europe.

    Now I can install the seals on vacation after-all! :thumbsup:
  • 08-05-2017
    fsrxc
    My 26" Expert came with a travel spacer kit, and to convert to 27.5 it came with the HBO cone, but it also needs a spacer on the bottom of the rebound shaft, which is a larger diameter, so the spacer won't fit. Well I forced one on but it stretches it a bit and doesn't snap into place like on the air shaft. Is there a specific spacer to convert Expert to 27.5? Or, has anyone just drilled out one of these travel spacers to fit the rebound shaft?
  • 08-06-2017
    thedrizzle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    My 26" Expert came with a travel spacer kit, and to convert to 27.5 it came with the HBO cone, but it also needs a spacer on the bottom of the rebound shaft, which is a larger diameter, so the spacer won't fit. Well I forced one on but it stretches it a bit and doesn't snap into place like on the air shaft. Is there a specific spacer to convert Expert to 27.5? Or, has anyone just drilled out one of these travel spacers to fit the rebound shaft?

    I have the same fork and also converted it to 27.5. Had a similar concern to you regarding the spacer on the rebound shaft after looking at the diagram that shipped with the fork. After consulting the guru's in this thread i got the impression a spacer is only required on the bottom of the air shaft and the hbo cone swapped out to convert from 26" to 27.5". This is what i did to both of my mattocs and have not had an issue with either.
  • 08-06-2017
    Mac1987
    1 Attachment(s)
    Could someone perhaps verify that this green sticker indicates the updated air piston?
  • 08-07-2017
    LaXCarp
    How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

    The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

    I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.
  • 08-07-2017
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

    The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

    I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.

    An easier option than changing the shim stack is to use a thinner oil in the damper.

    I would also try the new seals as they should be lower friction.
  • 08-07-2017
    nikon255
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

    The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

    I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.

    Id recommend to check if airspring leaks into lowers. If not, reshim compression and maybe get irt. It allows bigger sag with more supportive midstroke. If you check mattoc guide it suggest +1 click of compression for 77kg rider for descending. So only option for such a light rider is reshim and maybe irt, and btw lube properly lowers. It will change much more than thinner oil or new dust seals.

    Edit: forgot about rebound. Reshim also recommended to speed it up. It could be overdamped in compression and rebound.
  • 08-07-2017
    fsrxc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

    The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

    I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.

    Where have you set the rebound? Are you sure it's not packing down with such a low spring PSI?
  • 08-07-2017
    nikon255
    Im 70kg got 40/80psi with irt and rebound totally backed off.
  • 08-07-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

    The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

    I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.

    First step is the new low friction seals. You'll be amazed how much these will change the fork.

    Second step is compression damper shims. I can give you some direction there. But you need to do the seals first.

    The stock oil in these is thin enough and the ports big enough that with LSC open if you have a stiff fork then it is friction, not damping, causing the problem. There's no real advantage to thinner oils and they're difficult to find.

    The air spring on these actually works better with less travel. It gives you a bigger negative chamber which helps small bumps. Don't fit IRT until you've got the base tune sorted and working.

    I plan to get Mrs Dougal onto a Mattoc, but I need to get creative with steerer tubes first.
  • 08-08-2017
    nikon255
    Dougal, may you know if new mattoc familiy gets better lower damper sealing to prevent sucking in bath oil? Do you sell full service kit with all orings etc for mattoc? Just got information that in Poland new dust seals will be available at the end of september haha
  • 08-08-2017
    cobba
  • 08-08-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Dougal, may you know if new mattoc familiy gets better lower damper sealing to prevent sucking in bath oil? Do you sell full service kit with all orings etc for mattoc? Just got information that in Poland new dust seals will be available at the end of september haha

    I don't know if they've changed the lower seal. I don't disturb parts like that on new forks unless there's a problem and it'll be a while before I upgrade my own.

    Interestingly I've never seen oil migration into the damper. I run very different oils that are obvious when mixed.
    I have had mates forks (who rides maybe 10-20x more miles than me) run out of bath oil. But none was in the damper. What happens is bath oil provides a thin film on the stanchions which wipes upwards and is lost once outside the fork. But it happens slow enough that no obvious film is left.

    A few hundred thousand movements (guessing) and it's obvious how much is missing.

    Which is one more reason why people who ride more often need to do lower leg service more often.

    This same guy rides enough that he degrades the mattoc damper oil over a year. Something I almost never see in a fork and only see in rear shocks of those who work them very hard.
  • 08-08-2017
    phile
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by LaXCarp View Post
    How have the light riders (<120lbs) been getting on with this fork? I couple people mentioned custom shim stacks, but what about the air spring side? I have been having trouble getting my wifes mattoc to a point she likes.

    The fork is set at 140mm, so that reduced spring volume may have something to do with it. Right now I have it at 22ish PSI for her at 110 lbs and shes says its too stiff still. I've thought about bumping it up to 150mm travel to make the spring volume a bit larger and hopefully less progressive. This is w/o an IRT installed.

    I'm gonna throw an MRP stage on from my hardtail to see if she gets on any better with that.

    What happens if you drop the pressure below 22--does it bottom out a lot?I'm 140 lbs, only a few rides so far, 160mm travel. Started at 40 psi, now down to 35. All settings fully open. Still not using the last 25mm of travel (low-skilled riding with aggressive intent). Limited experience with other contemporary longish-travel forks--but this one feels incredibly plush to me. I heart it. I also run as low as 10 psi in my front tire--the low tire pressure makes a massive difference in ride quality to me.
  • 08-08-2017
    phreeky
    I used to think that I just wasn't pushing hard enough to bottom out, in fact not more than 140mm (mine is set to 160mm) - on the rare occasion I'd mess up a jump and hit nose down I'd get another 10mm or so out of it and so assumed it was just HBO etc doing its job. And then the other day I popped the damper opened, measured and it was too high (admittedly I didn't let the oil "air" and the bubbles all escape).

    I dropped the level a bit, and finally with all of the air out of the fork I could actually get full travel. It was simply over-filled from factory, something that seems quite common.

    I'm not a little unsure whether I've removed too much oil, so I probably should pull the damper and let it sit for a while before re-measuring. Rebound adjustment is definitely effective however it's too hard to judge compression adjustments just bouncing the fork. Would not letting it sit before adjusting the level have made it too far out of whack?
  • 08-09-2017
    xeren
    hey guys is there some trick to airing the Mattoc 2 Pro up? when I have the fork upside down and the shock pump is connected, and I pump it up to say 60psi, I can compress the fork normally, but as soon as I remove the shock pump, the fork becomes impossibly stiff, like it has 3 times as much air in it or something

    i swear I remember reading something about this but the thread is so big I can't find it again
  • 08-09-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    hey guys is there some trick to airing the Mattoc 2 Pro up? when I have the fork upside down and the shock pump is connected, and I pump it up to say 60psi, I can compress the fork normally, but as soon as I remove the shock pump, the fork becomes impossibly stiff, like it has 3 times as much air in it or something

    i swear I remember reading something about this but the thread is so big I can't find it again

    Well yeah. 60psi is a lot for these forks.

    When you connect the pump it connects positive and negative chambers so the fork can be easily compressed at like 1/5th it's normal spring rate. When you remove the pump it works normally.
  • 08-09-2017
    xeren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Well yeah. 60psi is a lot for these forks.

    When you connect the pump it connects positive and negative chambers so the fork can be easily compressed at like 1/5th it's normal spring rate. When you remove the pump it works normally.

    I appreciate the reply - according to the air chart it actually says I should be at 65psi at my weight
    it must not be connecting the chambers because even at 80psi, the fork is really easy to compress, and of course gets nearly impossible to compress once the shock pump is removed (I tried 2 different pumps, too)
  • 08-09-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    I appreciate the reply - according to the air chart it actually says I should be at 65psi at my weight
    it must not be connecting the chambers because even at 80psi, the fork is really easy to compress, and of course gets nearly impossible to compress once the shock pump is removed (I tried 2 different pumps, too)

    How much is the push-rod in the valve extending? If it wasn't connecting positive and negative then it wouldn't become easier to compress with the pump on.

    Have you ridden it?
  • 08-09-2017
    xeren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    How much is the push-rod in the valve extending? If it wasn't connecting positive and negative then it wouldn't become easier to compress with the pump on.

    Have you ridden it?

    looks like it extends about 1.5mm past the valve. is that too far? I had it in for warranty work, then aired it up to 60 psi and it was fine for several rides before reaired it and had this issue, now at the same psi it feels almost rigid

    I found what I had read a while ago, someone having the same issue, but I don't fully understand what the solution is, because I have no clue what they are referring to when they use the word "poppet"

    https://www.pinkbike.com/u/scar4me/b...ng-issues.html

    EDIT: I'm an idiot - i misunderstood what you wrote about how the pump being connected reduces the spring rate, and that is normal behavior. i just had the PSI way too high for my weight. reducing it and the fork is acting normal again. thank you for the responses!
  • 08-11-2017
    nikon255
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I don't know if they've changed the lower seal. I don't disturb parts like that on new forks unless there's a problem and it'll be a while before I upgrade my own.

    Interestingly I've never seen oil migration into the damper. I run very different oils that are obvious when mixed.
    I have had mates forks (who rides maybe 10-20x more miles than me) run out of bath oil. But none was in the damper. What happens is bath oil provides a thin film on the stanchions which wipes upwards and is lost once outside the fork. But it happens slow enough that no obvious film is left.

    A few hundred thousand movements (guessing) and it's obvious how much is missing.

    Which is one more reason why people who ride more often need to do lower leg service more often.

    This same guy rides enough that he degrades the mattoc damper oil over a year. Something I almost never see in a fork and only see in rear shocks of those who work them very hard.

    Left drained damper oil for few days cuz of my lazyness. Now there I can see 2 different oils. First thicker on the bottom, for sure sucked in supergliss and stock green above. This oil worked for 15hr max, so its new. Theres around 7ml of supergliss according to what drained from lower damper leg.

    So I guess its ur first time when you see bath oil in mattocs damper :) Do you know what kind of seal is in rebound damper assebly of mattoc pro and how to disassemble that? This time used 7ml for bath and hope it won't recur.
  • 08-13-2017
    devnull
    Is IRT available for the Magnum Pro?

    I have IVA but it doesn't provide enough mid stroke support. I set air to 40psi which gives good small bump compliance. If I use all the spacers I can get better midstroke support but still not enough. Also I cannot get full travel even with HBO off and all spacers. Seems like IRT would help resolve my issues.
  • 08-13-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    Left drained damper oil for few days cuz of my lazyness. Now there I can see 2 different oils. First thicker on the bottom, for sure sucked in supergliss and stock green above. This oil worked for 15hr max, so its new. Theres around 7ml of supergliss according to what drained from lower damper leg.

    So I guess its ur first time when you see bath oil in mattocs damper :) Do you know what kind of seal is in rebound damper assebly of mattoc pro and how to disassemble that? This time used 7ml for bath and hope it won't recur.

    I need to go mix some supergliss and Maxima 85-150 to see how it looks now.

    You can change the wiper seal (which preferentially seals oil in, rather than out) in the damper cap for an oring which will seal both ways. I haven't yet done it because it hasn't been an issue for me. Size is 10x3 metric.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    Is IRT available for the Magnum Pro?

    I have IVA but it doesn't provide enough mid stroke support. I set air to 40psi which gives good small bump compliance. If I use all the spacers I can get better midstroke support but still not enough. Also I cannot get full travel even with HBO off and all spacers. Seems like IRT would help resolve my issues.

    Yes IVA doesn't provide more mid-stroke support. It provides more end-stroke support. For more mid-stroke (without going to IRT) you can take the oring off the IVA piston to give you more air volume and retune to slightly higher air pressure.

    But first check damper oil if you can't get full stroke. Pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand.
  • 08-13-2017
    006_007
    I should finally have my IRT to install tomorrow night.

    My Mattoc is currently setup with 150mm travel, AVA as linear as possible, running 45psi and typically use 140mm or so of the available travel.

    I have started to desire a bit more mid level support - and am aware that the IRT should help me with this.

    Any tips for pressure I should start off with? Also for assembly I assume just let air out, remove AVA, add some slickoleum to the IRT, install, and off I go?

    Thanks!
  • 08-14-2017
    Dystopism
    Ive also had what i would think is ingestion of bath oil into the damper. I got less and less travel from the fork. I tried checking that the negative chamber was equalized, but that seemed fine. Removed all the air and could not compress the fork all the way. Pulled the fork apart, saw nothing in the air spring. Unfortunately i never measured the oil height, but I just change the oil and reset the oil height. The fork is working well again, with full travel. I rode the fork quite a lot without servicing the damper, I would guess at least 150h (probably more), during this time I did the lowers a couple of times.

    I don't consider it a big problem. I will simply change the oil in the damper and reset the oil height more often.
  • 08-14-2017
    devnull
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    Yes IVA doesn't provide more mid-stroke support. It provides more end-stroke support. For more mid-stroke (without going to IRT) you can take the oring off the IVA piston to give you more air volume and retune to slightly higher air pressure.

    But first check damper oil if you can't get full stroke. Pull the lower legs off and see if you can fully compress the damper shaft by hand.

    I can get full travel if I don't use all the IVA spacers.

    The Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 boost for is supposed to be quite close to the Magnum as I understand it. So I'm wondering if I can order the IRT and try to install it in my Magnum.
  • 08-14-2017
    arnea
    Yes, you can. I have IRT in Magnum Pro and it works super well.
  • 08-14-2017
    gregnash
    So I guess that begs the question.... why come out with an almost identical version of the Magnum in the Mattoc chassis? Is there some difference that I am missing that the Mattoc will come with over the Magnum? Don't get me wrong, already saving up my pennies for one once they are released.

    EDIT:
    OOOOOHhhhhhhhh... I just went to their site for the first time since the information was released and the Magnum now falls under a "Legacy Model" with them going back to six main models....
    Markhor - Replacing the Minute and Marvel it looks like, Dedicated XC fork
    Machete - Dedicated PLUS Tire fork, more on the XC side
    Mattoc - AM/FR/Plus (+) fork
    Mastodon - Fat Tire fork
  • 08-14-2017
    xeren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I should finally have my IRT to install tomorrow night.

    My Mattoc is currently setup with 150mm travel, AVA as linear as possible, running 45psi and typically use 140mm or so of the available travel.

    I have started to desire a bit more mid level support - and am aware that the IRT should help me with this.

    Any tips for pressure I should start off with? Also for assembly I assume just let air out, remove AVA, add some slickoleum to the IRT, install, and off I go?

    Thanks!

    be sure you air up the IRT side first, and always keep it 10-20 psi higher than the main air chamber, or it will act weird.

    also, the suggested air pressure chart that comes with the IRT is wayyyy off. on the normal air spring chart, i should be running 65psi, but the IRT says to run over 100 psi in the IRT spring and like 60 in the main. that results in a wayy too stiff spring that is impossible to compress even halfway.

    i am now running my psi in the IRT the same as my old air pressure before installation, and the main chamber is 20 psi lower than the IRT pressure. i may go even lower, but i'm still re-dialing in my compression settings, so it's too early to say
  • 08-14-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dystopism View Post
    Ive also had what i would think is ingestion of bath oil into the damper. I got less and less travel from the fork. I tried checking that the negative chamber was equalized, but that seemed fine. Removed all the air and could not compress the fork all the way. Pulled the fork apart, saw nothing in the air spring. Unfortunately i never measured the oil height, but I just change the oil and reset the oil height. The fork is working well again, with full travel. I rode the fork quite a lot without servicing the damper, I would guess at least 150h (probably more), during this time I did the lowers a couple of times.

    I don't consider it a big problem. I will simply change the oil in the damper and reset the oil height more often.

    I've just mixed up 2cc Supergliss with 10cc Motorex 2.5wt and 10cc Maxima 85-150 (two different beakers).
    The results are really interesting. Initially I could see the swirl marks from the thicker Supergliss. But an hour later the fork oils have completely absorbed the Supergliss. They look like beakers containing only new and clean oil!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    I can get full travel if I don't use all the IVA spacers.

    The Mattoc Pro 27.5+/29 boost for is supposed to be quite close to the Magnum as I understand it. So I'm wondering if I can order the IRT and try to install it in my Magnum.

    IVA isn't for everyone. In fact it's probably for no-one except those who read all the marketing bollocks about "bottomless tokens".
    To disable the IVA simply take the oring off the piston.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    So I guess that begs the question.... why come out with an almost identical version of the Magnum in the Mattoc chassis? Is there some difference that I am missing that the Mattoc will come with over the Magnum? Don't get me wrong, already saving up my pennies for one once they are released.

    EDIT:
    OOOOOHhhhhhhhh... I just went to their site for the first time since the information was released and the Magnum now falls under a "Legacy Model" with them going back to six main models....
    Markhor - Replacing the Minute and Marvel it looks like, Dedicated XC fork
    Machete - Dedicated PLUS Tire fork, more on the XC side
    Mattoc - AM/FR/Plus (+) fork
    Mastodon - Fat Tire fork

    Yep. Magnum name is gone (again) and they're all called Mattoc now. It's kind of funny that the Magnum name has been used 3x by Manitou and never stuck around for more than one model change. 1995, 2001 and 2016.
  • 08-14-2017
    Dougal
    1 Attachment(s)
    Oil mixing photos on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BXyyfEHF...raftsuspension

    Also here:
    Attachment 1152132

    You can just see the swirls of thicker Supergliss when stirred or shaken. When left to sit it's pretty much invisible. These were just shaken/swirled.
  • 08-14-2017
    xeren
    Is there an official name or part # for the new mattoc seals? I'm in the USA, when i search for manitou seals here, only the older evil genius seals come up
  • 08-14-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Is there an official name or part # for the new mattoc seals? I'm in the USA, when i search for manitou seals here, only the older evil genius seals come up

    Part Number 141-34000 https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/mastodo...t-manitou.html
  • 08-14-2017
    xeren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post

    awesome, thank you again, Dougal!
  • 08-14-2017
    devnull
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.
  • 08-14-2017
    thedrizzle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.

    You need a new LBS. That is unacceptable.
  • 08-14-2017
    arnea
    Very ugly behaviour from your LBS. Did they use original Manitou tool? Perhaps the orientation of the tool in wrench is important to reduce the flexing?
  • 08-15-2017
    arnea
    Does somebody know where to get spare 34mm foam rings? Rockshox has 32mm and 35mm rings, but not 34mm to my knowledge.
  • 08-15-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.

    That's annoying!

    I use a 0,5 inch (I think) wrench extention. You can place it inside the slot of the mattoc cassette tool so it won't squeeze together and slip when you put torque on it.
  • 08-15-2017
    POAH
    They busted it they should pay for the repair.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.

  • 08-15-2017
    Aglo
    Hi,
    Does anybody know where or when can I get the Mattoc Pro 2 29r 140mm from Europe?
    Can't find it anywhere.
  • 08-15-2017
    gregnash
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Hi,
    Does anybody know where or when can I get the Mattoc Pro 2 29r 140mm from Europe?
    Can't find it anywhere.

    Have a feeling we wont see it in person until after interbike. That was at least how the McLeod and original Mattoc were, if I remember correctly.
  • 08-15-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Have a feeling we wont see it in person until after interbike. That was at least how the McLeod and original Mattoc were, if I remember correctly.

    Also if I'm not mistaken the pro 2 is the 2017 model. The 140mm 29er is 2018 and just called pro I think without the 2. But yeah might take a while still.
  • 08-15-2017
    Deerhill
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.

    What lbs is that : ? tell us, and don't go back
  • 08-15-2017
    Deerhill
    Always place the slot/opening on that cassette tool at the opposite side while torquing so it doesn't close/spread...never had a problem like that
  • 08-15-2017
    Deerhill
    Dougal...
    When is the coil "iva" going to show up, see some pics this week : )?
  • 08-15-2017
    Aglo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gregnash View Post
    Have a feeling we wont see it in person until after interbike. That was at least how the McLeod and original Mattoc were, if I remember correctly.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Also if I'm not mistaken the pro 2 is the 2017 model. The 140mm 29er is 2018 and just called pro I think without the 2. But yeah might take a while still.

    Damn it, think I'm going to buy a kayak in the mean time :D...
  • 08-15-2017
    Vespasianus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Does somebody know where to get spare 34mm foam rings? Rockshox has 32mm and 35mm rings, but not 34mm to my knowledge.

    Fox 34MM foam rings will work.

    Also, Dougal and Mullen, you guys seem to have some sway with Manitou. Anyway you could persuade them to include the Mattoc tool kit with all their forks? With the tool kit, the Mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. Dead simple. I think this would dramatically reduce the mishaps people have with these forks.
  • 08-15-2017
    ghoti
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.

    Sorry to hear about that. Do they stock Manitou products? Perhaps contacting Manitou can force the LBS to do something.

    Go buy the following or make sure the LBS has these parts.
    -6mm allen 3/8 drive socket.
    -18" long 3/8 drive extension.
    -8mm socket or wrench or a 4mm allen


    Here's what you do. Pull it back apart to the stage where you need to remove the stanchion nut/cap. Make sure all pressure is released. Remove the IRA completely. Tape the 6mm socket to the extension. Feed it down the top and it should lock into place. Turn it either direction to make sure the entire shaft rotates. Now take the 8mm socket/wrench or the 4mm allen and place it at the bottom where you removed the lower legs. Turn the 6mm socket counterclockwise and it will unscrew the 2 halves. Be careful that there's a small spring between the two shafts. You should be able to pull the lower air shaft out. Now, you can try to use a standard cassette tool to remove the stanchion nut. If not then you'll have to send it to Manitou or devise some way to remove it. If you're feeling adventurous you can drill two holes into the cap on opposite sides from each other. Insert some bolts into the holes and use a screwdriver for leverage to turn the stanchion nut/cap. Or simply drill the two holes and use an adjustable pin spanner wrench to remove the cap/nut.
  • 08-15-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by devnull View Post
    So I took the fork to my LBS to have them remove the oring on the IVA. I dunno why but the mechanic pulled the lower legs. I asked him to check the air spring to see if any spacers were installed on it. He completely stripped out the compression rod cap. It's the part that needs what looks like a cassette tool with a slot in it that screws into the stanchion. Apparently the slot lets it flex too much and it stripped out. He showed me by having me try on the other stanchion and it started to strip out so I stopped. They tried to compress the rod and fit a standard cassette tool but it was too short. So they said there's nothing they can do and just put it back together and told me to just ride it. Manager said they aren't responsible and it's a product defect so take it up with Manitou. Did I mention they charged me $50 !! WTF!! Yes, my fork is still rideable but this is unacceptable.

    Any tips on how to remove that stripped out compression rod cap? The damper side is also very tight so I'm going to have to figure out a way to remove that too eventually.

    That's bloody terrible. I've never had a Mattoc end-cap tight or had issues with the tools flexing. Sounds like incompetence.
  • 08-15-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Fox 34MM foam rings will work.

    Also, Dougal and Mullen, you guys seem to have some sway with Manitou. Anyway you could persuade them to include the Mattoc tool kit with all their forks? With the tool kit, the Mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. Dead simple. I think this would dramatically reduce the mishaps people have with these forks.

    Too much $ on manitous part and most riders won't use them anyway. Also doesn't help oem (which is growing). You wouldn't like the rise in msrp if the did it

    It's really easy to modify a 8mm socket and a normal cassette tool to work perfectly. Unfortunately, even with the correct tools, end users will screw it up.
  • 08-15-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Does somebody know where to get spare 34mm foam rings? Rockshox has 32mm and 35mm rings, but not 34mm to my knowledge.

    Manitou foam rings (dark grey) are better than everyone elses. They'll suck up and hold virtually their own volume in oil. I don't see any issues using RS 35mm rings or Fox 34mm, but the Manitou ones are better.
    I'm clearing out Travis 34mm seals which have the dark grey foam rings, but haven't got spares yet.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Aglo View Post
    Hi,
    Does anybody know where or when can I get the Mattoc Pro 2 29r 140mm from Europe?
    Can't find it anywhere.

    Some of the new models aren't available yet. We're still waiting on the 27 Boost 160mm Mattoc. Early September is the latest update. The 140mm versions all ship as 120mm and need spacers removed internally.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by J: View Post
    When is the coil "iva" going to show up, see some pics this week : )?

    Oh yeah, that. Hoping to have some progress on Double Negative McLeod this week and that's all.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Fox 34MM foam rings will work.

    Also, Dougal and Mullen, you guys seem to have some sway with Manitou. Anyway you could persuade them to include the Mattoc tool kit with all their forks? With the tool kit, the Mattoc is the easiest fork I have ever worked on. Dead simple. I think this would dramatically reduce the mishaps people have with these forks.

    I think it would just push up the price and the average owner would still lose them before service time. Like car wheel locks except worse because the tools can't be stored in the bike.
  • 08-17-2017
    mrfat
    Need help setting up my buddy's Magnum Pro which seems to be quite similar to the Mattoc. He has the IVA cap. We adjusted it to all spacers are below the seal or o-ring. Feels fairly linear but maybe we'll just remove that o-ring entirely if need be. So my first question is were we supposed to put oil in the upper part of the leg before reinstalling the IVA? A little bit of oil did come out.

    Manitou's set up instructions kinda suck. I don't really know which way is max or min for the settings. I'm thinking counter clockwise is min and all the way clockwise is max? Turning the black IPA doesn't seem to do much. Maybe I'm not compressing the fork quick enough though. Does it adjust HSC? Also from fully counter clockwise turning it clockwise it clicks twice and then gets really stiff and there's no really discernible clicks? Is this normal?

    LSC does nothing except fully clockwise where it gets very stiff and feels like it's locking out the fork. Some people have said it's related to where the IPA/black knob is but I find it acts fully independent of it. Some people said if you had the black IPA knob fully counterclockwise then the LSC has no effect? Is that the way it's supposed to be?

    Setting air pressure. Using Manitou's guidelines my friend runs 60psi at 160lbs and barely gets 10% sag. We dropped it to 40psi and it gets about 30% sag. Should I try Dougal's method. Set dials to fully clockwise and rebound off and find the best air pressure that absorbs high speed chatter?

    Currently the set up is LSC 1 click from fully counter clockwise and same with IPA/black knob. HBO fully counterclockwise. Rebound 3 clicks from fast. PSI 40lbs and all spacers under IVA o-ring. The bike eats big hit well but vibrates terribly on small trail chatter. We've tried the black IPA knob in all positions and it doesn't make much difference. Maybe rebound is too fast?
  • 08-17-2017
    ktm520
    mrfat,

    No oil in the air spring.

    Add spring and reduce rebound damping. For that range of psi, full fast or one click in. This will make a huge difference on the fast chatter. Once you get the spring close, fine tune by making small, 1-2psi, changes.
  • 08-17-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    Need help setting up my buddy's Magnum Pro which seems to be quite similar to the Mattoc. He has the IVA cap. We adjusted it to all spacers are below the seal or o-ring. Feels fairly linear but maybe we'll just remove that o-ring entirely if need be. So my first question is were we supposed to put oil in the upper part of the leg before reinstalling the IVA? A little bit of oil did come out.

    Manitou's set up instructions kinda suck. I don't really know which way is max or min for the settings. I'm thinking counter clockwise is min and all the way clockwise is max? Turning the black IPA doesn't seem to do much. Maybe I'm not compressing the fork quick enough though. Does it adjust HSC? Also from fully counter clockwise turning it clockwise it clicks twice and then gets really stiff and there's no really discernible clicks? Is this normal?

    LSC does nothing except fully clockwise where it gets very stiff and feels like it's locking out the fork. Some people have said it's related to where the IPA/black knob is but I find it acts fully independent of it. Some people said if you had the black IPA knob fully counterclockwise then the LSC has no effect? Is that the way it's supposed to be?

    Setting air pressure. Using Manitou's guidelines my friend runs 60psi at 160lbs and barely gets 10% sag. We dropped it to 40psi and it gets about 30% sag. Should I try Dougal's method. Set dials to fully clockwise and rebound off and find the best air pressure that absorbs high speed chatter?

    Currently the set up is LSC 1 click from fully counter clockwise and same with IPA/black knob. HBO fully counterclockwise. Rebound 3 clicks from fast. PSI 40lbs and all spacers under IVA o-ring. The bike eats big hit well but vibrates terribly on small trail chatter. We've tried the black IPA knob in all positions and it doesn't make much difference. Maybe rebound is too fast?

    Use my method for air pressure. It's about response frequency to slow speed bouncing.
    LSC and HSC piggy back off each other. The HSC preloads the shims (which is why it gets firmer with more clicks) and the LSC is the bypass around them.

    You cannot compress a fork fast enough to test damping by pushing up and down. You need to go slam bumps.
  • 08-18-2017
    Dystopism
    Im looking for some pointers on how to improve my setup. I ride in Sweden and riding here is a bit different than most other places. I almost only ride all natural hiking trail. We don't have a lot of altitude here and all altitude one get is by climbing the same technical natural hiking trails. There is never anything built, like jumps and such. It is all just sketchy hucks to flat, natural gaps and very short steep gnarly stuff.

    I ride my Mattoc set to 140 mm on an Orange Five. I got the IVA set to the middle as delivered. Im about 75 kg (165 lbs), or about 80 kg (175lbs) with gear and hydration pack. For this I ride a whooping 80 psi, which seem to be quite a lot. I ride the really high pressure to get lots of support. I got the rebound at six clicks from min, HSC one click from min and LSC one click from min. I really dont want more HSC since I dont like the platform feel. My fork currently feel pretty good for what I ride, but there is definitely a lack of traction in high speed situations. The IRT seem to be something that could benifit me. Ive also been thinking about if it would be possible to re-shim the damper. Would it be possible to get a firmer compression without having it like a platform as it is now?
  • 08-18-2017
    ktm520
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dystopism View Post
    Im looking for some pointers on how to improve my setup. I ride in Sweden and riding here is a bit different than most other places. I almost only ride all natural hiking trail. We don't have a lot of altitude here and all altitude one get is by climbing the same technical natural hiking trails. There is never anything built, like jumps and such. It is all just sketchy hucks to flat, natural gaps and very short steep gnarly stuff.

    I ride my Mattoc set to 140 mm on an Orange Five. I got the IVA set to the middle as delivered. Im about 75 kg (165 lbs), or about 80 kg (175lbs) with gear and hydration pack. For this I ride a whooping 80 psi, which seem to be quite a lot. I ride the really high pressure to get lots of support. I got the rebound at six clicks from min, HSC one click from min and LSC one click from min. I really dont want more HSC since I dont like the platform feel. My fork currently feel pretty good for what I ride, but there is definitely a lack of traction in high speed situations. The IRT seem to be something that could benifit me. Ive also been thinking about if it would be possible to re-shim the damper. Would it be possible to get a firmer compression without having it like a platform as it is now?

    Couple things to try.

    First thing I'd try is to set the IVA full volume, and you can even remove the spacers from under the piston for another 3cc each. Then work on the rebound, speed it up. You air setting isn't that high for a 140 fork. Your pump gauge could be as much as 20psi off. I found the stock IVA setting way too progressive.

    Try swapping lsc for hsc. Reduce lsc and add hsc. It sounds counter intuitive, but you need the hsc to keep the fork riding high in the fast stuff and to control the wheel. Get this notion of platform out of your head. Your traction problems are most likely a combination of spring, rebound, and hsc, in that order.

    I've recently switched to IRT and won't go back.
  • 08-18-2017
    Dystopism
    Thanks for the input. I will try changing the IVA to more volume. I think my current rebound with the pressure I was running was a good compromise. When I was running less rebound I would get deflected on big hits. Perhaps that will improve with more air volume thou? I think my pump reads low values if anything, but manometers are a tricky breed. I dont have much LSC to remove, but I guess I will give it a go as well.
  • 08-18-2017
    ktm520
    Exactly, with a more progressive spring, less vol, you end up with a compromised lsr setting to control the whole stroke, too much lsr and still not hsr. The too much lsr can kill traction on small/med bump.

    Removing one clk of lsc and adding one of hsc, is what I referring to. Keep playing, but just keep in mind small changes can go along way, and you need to fully soak in the feedback you get from the change before reaching for the dial or pump again. Be methodical.

    On the flip side, you could be over damped on comp. How's it ride with hsc full soft? I'm guessing too soft.
  • 08-18-2017
    Dystopism
    The air volume/rebound sounds like something that could be giving me problems. Would the best place to start be just to adjust the VIA to max volume, or should I remove all the tokens as well?

    I had to check my compression settings. I should probably rather say that Im running two clicks HSC from min and one click LSC from min. I will go out for runs tomorrow and then experiment with HSC. Ive actually done very little to experiment with the fork. I just thought of the HSC as a pedal platform as set it low enough that I was not bothered by it in that way.

    So if I understand the Manitou dynocharts correct, have the LSC open will give me sort of a linear compression that will tune via the HSC?

    https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conten...User-Guide.pdf

    It looks like removing that one click of LSC and adding HSC could actually make the damper ramp more towards the end storke?
  • 08-18-2017
    phreeky
    I'm not sure what my air pressure would be if at 140mm (mine is set to 160mm), however at a similar weight I run closer to 40psi so 80psi sounds quite extreme. I also don't use IVA so that could play a role.

    It sounds to me like you're a little too concerned about the fork feeling overly soft. Try not to test it too much in the garage and just bouncing around, do some experimentation on the trails. Try dropping the air spring a fair bit (maybe start with 60psi) and let the fork sit just a little into its travel when you put a bit of weight on the front, and just enough rebound damping so that it feels like it won't unsettle you, with the LSC and HSC close to or fully open. If you don't give suspension any "droop" (i.e. no sag), if the rebound is too slow or you're running too much HSC damping then traction will suffer - your wheel will keep leaving the ground.

    You really need to get the spring side of things sorted before you try dialling in your damping.

    Additionally playing with IVA or IRT without getting the fork close to right before hand is also over-complicating - you need to get the basics right first, and it's a more than capable fork without those extra adjustments.
  • 08-19-2017
    Dystopism
    1 Attachment(s)
    I have actually ridden the fork lots, it is only that I suck as setup up my stuff, and that I really hate certain things about setups. I would rather ride a rigid fork, than one that dives in steep or under braking. My pressure seem to be way of the Manitou recommendations still...

    So, anyway. I opened the IVA and it turned out that I only had one black spacer above the seal. So i removed that, and then all the spacers out of the IVA. I figured that the pressure in the fork would push the seal part into place at the top of the air chamber. Perhaps I should remove the washers and stuff that dangles of the rod in the IVA?

    I set the fork up at 75 psi, speeded up the rebound to 2 clicks from full fast, set LSC to min and HSC to two clicks from min. Since the ride was wet, it was hard to evaluate properly. The initial impression is good. The fork feels more linear over bigger bumps. Since it was wet the speeds was lower and I still don't know how it will be to hit stuff at full speed. Traction was also hard to evaluate since it was set. The clearly rebounds past the ride position when flat landing and similar, but perhaps that is not so bad?
    Attachment 1152945
  • 08-19-2017
    mrfat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Use my method for air pressure. It's about response frequency to slow speed bouncing.
    LSC and HSC piggy back off each other. The HSC preloads the shims (which is why it gets firmer with more clicks) and the LSC is the bypass around them.

    You cannot compress a fork fast enough to test damping by pushing up and down. You need to go slam bumps.

    So turn everything to stiff?

    One thing I noticed is the fork doesn't get full travel. I weigh a good 70lbs more and when I try to compress the fork there's 15mm of travel remaining. We completely let the air out and compressed it and it achieves full travel. Air it up though and it doesn't get full travel. HBO was set full counter clockwise. I pulled the damper to check the fluid level and I pulled out 2ml so that it's pretty close to 77mm from the top. Aired things back up but still leaves 15mm of travel. Not that big a deal since it eats big hits nicely though.

    The air valve at the bottom of the fork sucks though. So I have to flip the bike upside down to air it up then pull on the fork to make sure it's at full extension before removing the pump. Gotta remove the gps off the handlebars and the seat and grips get dirty as a result. Mediocre design IMO.

    Another interesting thing is if you ride the bike then get off it and push the o-ring down and then lift the wheel off the ground it shows another 10mm of travel. Does that indicate too much negative air pressure? The valve core plunger sticks out 1mm past the schrader valve stem which I believe is the correct height. Perhaps it needs to stick out more? So de-air it and remove the IVA cap and try to adjust it out further? What size allen would I need for that? I'm using a Fox shock pump that has the recommended attachment that was previously posted in this thread. We pull the forks out to full extension before airing it up which makes it a two man job and a PITA. So why does it not return to full extension after getting off the bike? Or is that by design and you have to actually fully unweight the fork by lifting the wheel off the ground for it to return to full extension. This has me thinking the air spring might have some issue.
  • 08-19-2017
    arnea
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    So turn everything to stiff?

    I haven't used this method, but to me it seems logical that you set all dampers to least resistance to feel only the spring.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    The air valve at the bottom of the fork sucks though. So I have to flip the bike upside down to air it up then pull on the fork to make sure it's at full extension before removing the pump. Gotta remove the gps off the handlebars and the seat and grips get dirty as a result. Mediocre design IMO.

    Manitou changed the air piston and lubricant. Old pistons had one glide ring and used oil on top of piston. New pistons have two glide rings and use Slickoleum for lubrication. With the Slickoleum you do not have to turn the bike upside down, because it will not flow to negative chamber. At least I have not encountered any problems pumping the fork when bike is on its wheels. I will just rise handlebar before I disconnect the pump to extend the fork.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    Another interesting thing is if you ride the bike then get off it and push the o-ring down and then lift the wheel off the ground it shows another 10mm of travel. Does that indicate too much negative air pressure?

    It might also be stiction of the seals + low air pressure. Have you checked that there is oil in lowers? What oil do you use?
  • 08-19-2017
    mrfat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    I haven't used this method, but to me it seems logical that you set all dampers to least resistance to feel only the spring.



    Manitou changed the air piston and lubricant. Old pistons had one glide ring and used oil on top of piston. New pistons have two glide rings and use Slickoleum for lubrication. With the Slickoleum you do not have to turn the bike upside down, because it will not flow to negative chamber. At least I have not encountered any problems pumping the fork when bike is on its wheels. I will just rise handlebar before I disconnect the pump to extend the fork.



    It might also be stiction of the seals + low air pressure. Have you checked that there is oil in lowers? What oil do you use?

    So LSC/HSC to full counter clockwise/soft but rebound should be fully closed/fast?

    I used 7ml in each leg of Fox Gold. I also have some Mobil 1 0w20 that I used to use in Fox/RockShox forks but that seemed to cause more stichion.
  • 08-20-2017
    arnea
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    So LSC/HSC to full counter clockwise/soft but rebound should be fully closed/fast?

    I used 7ml in each leg of Fox Gold. I also have some Mobil 1 0w20 that I used to use in Fox/RockShox forks but that seemed to cause more stichion.

    All adjusters to full fast, including rebound. Fully closed rebound is slowest. I hope you have read this article: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...spension-setup
  • 08-20-2017
    mrfat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    All adjusters to full fast, including rebound. Fully closed rebound is slowest. I hope you have read this article: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...spension-setup

    It's called rebound dampening so fully closed would mean no rebound dampening thus it would be the fastest position right? I take it to mean the damper is closed off and thus it rides stiff/fast. If you engage the damper fully open then it's the slowest or softest position, having the most dampening effect?

    I've tried Dougal's method with everything set to fast/stiff. For it to be decently smooth it's running maybe 30psi and about 44mm of sag. Right around 33% sag but that negatively effects the geo and steepens the HTA to 70 degrees.

    Maybe it needs to be shimmed to his riding weight of 170? I'm gonna try my hefty ass at 240lbs and see if I can get it dialed in. Since he's 70% of my weight then I'm figuring 70% of the air pressure should be a close starting range.
  • 08-20-2017
    mrfat
    Also a question about filling the fork. So say I invert it and I use an allen to depress the valve and collapse the fork to bottom out. Now with the valve depressed should I then pull the forks to full extension and proceed to air it up? Or after fully compressing it do I release the valve and then pull it to full extension? This creates a vacuum and the fork wants to retract so I have to hold it until the shock pump is connected. I presume it's causing a vacuum in the positive air chamber? What if I compress it fully then air it up then pull the legs to full extension before removing the pump? Ironically that doesn't seem to drop air pressure much so I'm wondering if that's an indication of something wrong.

    It has a deadspot of around 7-10mm. Cycle the fork then get off the bike. Move the o-ring all the way down. Then pull on the handlebars so the wheel is off the ground. The fork extends another 7-10mm. Everything set to fast and I've even aired the fork to 100psi and it still does this though usually only 7mm of deadspot rather than 10mm when aired to 30 or 40psi. Is this an indication the positive air side is lower than the negative? Perhaps I need to adjust the air valve out more or remove the o-ring from the IVA.
  • 08-20-2017
    Dystopism
    I rode my fork in the dry today at it was very good. The change of settings is an improvement. With the old pressure and IVA tokens I would only bottom out the fork on flat landings.

    Now I use all the travel och bigger hits from normal riding. I got the Huck Bail Out set to max, so its not hard bottoms outs. Two clicks of HSC was probably the best settings. 3 clicks from min is more composed in fast downhill, but it will probably be too tiring to run for longer on the flat slower trails. The only thing that was worse was that the fork wallows a little more when it hangs up on stuff in really slow technical stuff.

    I think I will try to go up a little in pressure again and see if that feels better.
  • 08-20-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    It's called rebound dampening so fully closed would mean no rebound dampening thus it would be the fastest position right? I take it to mean the damper is closed off and thus it rides stiff/fast. If you engage the damper fully open then it's the slowest or softest position, having the most dampening effect?

    Other way around. Closed = max damping. Open = min damping.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    I've tried Dougal's method with everything set to fast/stiff. For it to be decently smooth it's running maybe 30psi and about 44mm of sag. Right around 33% sag but that negatively effects the geo and steepens the HTA to 70 degrees.

    Maybe it needs to be shimmed to his riding weight of 170? I'm gonna try my hefty ass at 240lbs and see if I can get it dialed in. Since he's 70% of my weight then I'm figuring 70% of the air pressure should be a close starting range.

    Try it again with all the damper dials set to open (fastest). Softest, not stiffest. 30psi is far too low.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    Also a question about filling the fork. So say I invert it and I use an allen to depress the valve and collapse the fork to bottom out. Now with the valve depressed should I then pull the forks to full extension and proceed to air it up? Or after fully compressing it do I release the valve and then pull it to full extension? This creates a vacuum and the fork wants to retract so I have to hold it until the shock pump is connected. I presume it's causing a vacuum in the positive air chamber? What if I compress it fully then air it up then pull the legs to full extension before removing the pump? Ironically that doesn't seem to drop air pressure much so I'm wondering if that's an indication of something wrong.

    It has a deadspot of around 7-10mm. Cycle the fork then get off the bike. Move the o-ring all the way down. Then pull on the handlebars so the wheel is off the ground. The fork extends another 7-10mm. Everything set to fast and I've even aired the fork to 100psi and it still does this though usually only 7mm of deadspot rather than 10mm when aired to 30 or 40psi. Is this an indication the positive air side is lower than the negative? Perhaps I need to adjust the air valve out more or remove the o-ring from the IVA.

    Pump the fork up, pull it to full length and remove the pump. It's that simple. If the lower legs try to suck down then someone possibly put the fork together with the legs compressed which makes a vacuum in the lowers. The solution there is to loosen the foot bolts to let the pressure equalise. Then snug them back up.

    If it settles lower after riding then you've likely got the older air piston or you need a new air-piston seal.
  • 08-20-2017
    aerius
    Bought a used Mattoc Pro with the IRT upgrade about a month ago. After dialing it in, it rides almost the same as my Marzocchi 350 NCR, which is to say really darn good and way better than my Pike even after I redid the damper shims on that fork. The Marzocchi has a longer A2C which slacks out my bike a tad a gives it the edge for DH runs while the shorter Mattoc keeps the bike a bit more nimble at lower speeds in the tight stuff. Other than that they're virtually identical, they stay up in their travel better than the Pike, have a nice comfy ride, and they won't bottom unless I mess up badly and over-jump to flat or something really dumb like that. Which happens more often than I'd like since the smoothness & control of the forks makes it feel like I'm not going as fast as I actually am.
  • 08-20-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    Bought a used Mattoc Pro with the IRT upgrade about a month ago. After dialing it in, it rides almost the same as my Marzocchi 350 NCR, which is to say really darn good and way better than my Pike even after I redid the damper shims on that fork. The Marzocchi has a longer A2C which slacks out my bike a tad a gives it the edge for DH runs while the shorter Mattoc keeps the bike a bit more nimble at lower speeds in the tight stuff. Other than that they're virtually identical, they stay up in their travel better than the Pike, have a nice comfy ride, and they won't bottom unless I mess up badly and over-jump to flat or something really dumb like that. Which happens more often than I'd like since the smoothness & control of the forks makes it feel like I'm not going as fast as I actually am.

    Now you need to update the seals.
  • 08-21-2017
    arnea
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    It's called rebound dampening so fully closed would mean no rebound dampening thus it would be the fastest position right? I take it to mean the damper is closed off and thus it rides stiff/fast. If you engage the damper fully open then it's the slowest or softest position, having the most dampening effect?

    Dougal already said that it is opposite. The logic is that the damper is valve that limits the oil flow. As you close the valve, it gets harder for oil to flow through it. It takes more force to move the oil. Therefore it slows down the rebound and makes harder to compress the fork. If you open up the valve (damper) oil can flow easier, rebound is faster, it takes less force to
    compress the fork.

    The other things you described (fork trying to collapse when you unair it and the 7-10mm dead zone) are not normal. Vacuum in the lowers might explain the collapsing, but I have no idea what might cause the dead zone. Very large friction somewhere? If not seals then perhaps something to do with bushings? If you unbolt the lowers are they sliding smoothly and easily? Or is there any binding?
  • 08-21-2017
    CS645
    Ok, just did a quick ride after I replaced the seals on both Mattocs. WOW, that's a big difference! Much less dry feeling from the front and the whole bike feels more lively/active now. Also feels more similar now to the bump sensitivity of the McLeod in the rear. Have to do a longer ride to see if I have to make further adjustments to air pressure and damping. Used the Unior 1702 34mm seal press, that worked very fast and easy: Unior d.d. | Hand tools

    My wifes Mattoc regained the topout click. So have to see if the little spring moved out of place again or if I did something else wrong with the reassembly. I didn't touch the damper though. I did put the new air piston in her's so that's fixed. (Mine turned out to have the new one already).

    At first didn't understand how the spacers would reduce the negative chamber volume at increased travel, but now I get it. Would be nice to think about a way to adress that.
  • 08-21-2017
    nikon255
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    My wifes Mattoc regained the topout click. So have to see if the little spring moved out of place again or if I did something else wrong with the reassembly. I didn't touch the damper though.

    So first time I fixed this top out with damper service with oil change and "bleed". After some time riding made air spring service with air valve adjusting. After that its toping out again. I dont know if damper get air under rebound piston, but im sure cycled it few times upside down. Hold front brake, push and pull gently on handlebar like you want to check for bushing play. Does it clicks quietly?
  • 08-21-2017
    ghoti
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Other way around. Closed = max damping. Open = min damping.



    Try it again with all the damper dials set to open (fastest). Softest, not stiffest. 30psi is far too low.

    Rebound should be set to stiffest ie fastest(-). I think he's getting oil flow rate confused with what he feels is the compression speed or force as arnea explained below.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Pump the fork up, pull it to full length and remove the pump. It's that simple. If the lower legs try to suck down then someone possibly put the fork together with the legs compressed which makes a vacuum in the lowers. The solution there is to loosen the foot bolts to let the pressure equalise. Then snug them back up.

    If it settles lower after riding then you've likely got the older air piston or you need a new air-piston seal.

    I bet he uses the 4mm allen method to remove the air side. As such he probably did compress the fork. If you lack the thin walled 8mm socket then you can try to cycle the suspension as you air it up. There's also the zip tie method too but the seals on forks are very resilient and you may have difficulty pushing it into the lower leg. Either of those can help relieve the vacuum and you pull the fork to full extension before removing the pump and you shouldn't have the dead zone.

    Also 30 psi is quite low. You may need to remove the o ring on the IVA as Dougal suggested. That gives you another 2" of volume as I believe there's still a white spacer above the seal.
  • 08-22-2017
    mrfat
    Ok, so I am using the allen method on the air spring side and compressing the forks. I tried cycling the fork with the pump attached and it did reduce the deadspot to 4mm. Close enough.

    So all dials are set completely counterclockwise. Rebound is adjusted with dial facing me so it's rebounding as fast as possible. Aired it to 50psi and it felt pretty decent but my friend said that at higher speeds(20-30mph)9 it's rough over the trail chatter. Wasn't sure if the rebound was too high so I set 2 clicks slower. He said it didn't have much effect. Works well at slower speeds and for drops. Though on 3ft drops he's only getting 110mm of travel. Told him not to worry about it as you don't really want to be blowing through all your travel. If it works and eats the drop then don't worry about how much travel you are getting. In fact it's probably better it doesn't eat full travel as he's getting better geo.

    I haven't pulled the IVA apart yet to remove the o-ring. Since small bump compliance at lower speeds under 15mph is fine I'm wondering if I should pull the o-ring though. Not sure how that will help with trail chatter at higher speeds.

    I'll probably just have to ride the bike myself to try and diagnose why higher speed trail chatter feels rough. Unfortunately the bike is a size or two too small for me. I may try Dystopism's settings as he seems similar in weight.

    At least I know where to start
  • 08-22-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    So first time I fixed this top out with damper service with oil change and "bleed". After some time riding made air spring service with air valve adjusting. After that its toping out again. I dont know if damper get air under rebound piston, but im sure cycled it few times upside down. Hold front brake, push and pull gently on handlebar like you want to check for bushing play. Does it clicks quietly?

    I'm going have to try later. I won't excluded that I reassembled the fork too quickly and created a vacuum in the lowers. Gonna check that later this week.
  • 08-22-2017
    phreeky
    My fork has that "deadspot" at the top of travel, however I *think* it only developed it since I pulled the damper and reduced the oil level to get full travel. I'm wondering if I need to ensure the fork is extended whilst the damper is tightened back down?

    I'll probably check that out tonight. It hasn't particularly bothered me since I'm running a much longer fork that standard for my bike anyway, but it would be nice to fix still.
  • 08-23-2017
    Dystopism
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    Ok, so I am using the allen method on the air spring side and compressing the forks. I tried cycling the fork with the pump attached and it did reduce the deadspot to 4mm. Close enough.

    So all dials are set completely counterclockwise. Rebound is adjusted with dial facing me so it's rebounding as fast as possible. Aired it to 50psi and it felt pretty decent but my friend said that at higher speeds(20-30mph)9 it's rough over the trail chatter. Wasn't sure if the rebound was too high so I set 2 clicks slower. He said it didn't have much effect. Works well at slower speeds and for drops. Though on 3ft drops he's only getting 110mm of travel. Told him not to worry about it as you don't really want to be blowing through all your travel. If it works and eats the drop then don't worry about how much travel you are getting. In fact it's probably better it doesn't eat full travel as he's getting better geo.

    I haven't pulled the IVA apart yet to remove the o-ring. Since small bump compliance at lower speeds under 15mph is fine I'm wondering if I should pull the o-ring though. Not sure how that will help with trail chatter at higher speeds.

    I'll probably just have to ride the bike myself to try and diagnose why higher speed trail chatter feels rough. Unfortunately the bike is a size or two too small for me. I may try Dystopism's settings as he seems similar in weight.

    At least I know where to start

    When I dident get full travle is changed the oil in the damper and now the fork is working much better. I still dont know if there was too much oil there, pressure build up or what. I would also recomend getting some decent tools. A friend just wrecked his fork by trying to use the hex key in valve method.
  • 08-23-2017
    xeren
    Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.

    I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.

    Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!
  • 08-23-2017
    ghoti
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.

    I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.

    Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!

    That's just kinda the progressive nature of the "air spring". It would be cool if someone modified the IVA or IRT with a coil spring instead of spacers or air pressure.
  • 08-23-2017
    Aglo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
    That's just kinda the progressive nature of the "air spring". It would be cool if someone modified the IVA or IRT with a coil spring instead of spacers or air pressure.

    That don't seems to be hard to do, and you can even add some sort of preload mechanism just as easy.
  • 08-23-2017
    phreeky
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phreeky View Post
    I'll probably check that out tonight. It hasn't particularly bothered me since I'm running a much longer fork that standard for my bike anyway, but it would be nice to fix still.

    Tried it, no change.

    Maybe it's some vacuum in the lowers. That can wait until I do a lower leg service though as it's probably due to be done anyway.
  • 08-23-2017
    aerius
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.

    I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.

    Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!

    I have a few Minute Pros with the MARS spring system and a Mattoc Pro with IRT, mine feel fairly similar, well, as similar as a 100mm and 160mm travel fork will get. My Minute has a medium coil spring and 100psi in the air chamber, Mattoc is 60psi in main chamber and 100psi in the IRT. I give up some small bump suppleness when riding at lower speeds but that's not really important to me, my forks are optimized for dive & bottom out resistance since I need them to stay up in their travel and not bottom when I get carried away doing stupid stuff. 150lbs rider, so definitely on the stiff side.

    As for the dampers, the Minute with the stock shim stack has more platform than the Mattoc according to the dyno graphs from Manitou.
  • 08-23-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    Has anyone retrofitted a Mattoc 2 Pro with a MARS coil/air spring? I absolutely love the MARS spring on my Minute Pro, and i'm getting frustrated trying to get the same great feel I have in the Minute with the IRT system of the Mattoc.

    I read somewhere that Mattoc Expert forks came with MARS spring originally, but i can't find any more info about MARS on the Mattoc.

    Maybe I just need to be patient with my IRT tuning (whenever I get the top of the travel feeling right, i can't get close to bottoming out the fork, but when I soften things up, it dives too easily), or maybe the Minute has more of a platform than the Mattoc, but I love how high in its travel the Minute rides, even on steep descents!

    No Mattoc or Magnum had the MARS system. The Mattoc Comp (OEM) had a TS air system.

    I keep saying this, but upgrade to the new seals and you'll be amazed. It'll let you run more compression damping and/or spring rate and still get the response you need.
  • 08-23-2017
    phreeky
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I keep saying this, but upgrade to the new seals and you'll be amazed. It'll let you run more compression damping and/or spring rate and still get the response you need.

    So it's the wiper seals you're talking about?

    So much so that if I have a new set of the 'old' seals already I should avoid using them?
  • 08-23-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phreeky View Post
    So it's the wiper seals you're talking about?

    So much so that if I have a new set of the 'old' seals already I should avoid using them?

    Yep. Otherwise you'll have about 2 years more riding to wear them out.
  • 08-24-2017
    Stratus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    No Mattoc or Magnum had the MARS system. The Mattoc Comp (OEM) had a TS air system.

    I keep saying this, but upgrade to the new seals and you'll be amazed. It'll let you run more compression damping and/or spring rate and still get the response you need.

    Are those flangeless/flanged? In other words are they easy to install by hand without press-in tool?
    Anyone seen them available in Europe yet?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645
    Used the Unior 1702 34mm seal press, that worked very fast and easy: Unior d.d. | Hand tools

    Where did you manage to get one? Their site isn't really cooperative at the moment.
  • 08-24-2017
    Kiwiplague
    The new seals are flanged, I got mine in with some PVC pipe without too much difficulty, likely would have easier with a seal driver, but I've never had to use one yet on all the various forks I've had over the years.

    To echo what others have said, the new seals are very slippery, that's for sure. One thing I found when reinserting the stanchions was how much easier it was to get them in, whereas with the old seals it was a lot trickier.
  • 08-24-2017
    Stratus
    Ordered them. :)

    Might use a piece of PVC as well, or source a seal press locally.
  • 08-24-2017
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stratus View Post
    Ordered them. :)

    Might use a piece of PVC as well, or source a seal press locally.

    I'm not sure where you are located but if it's US or Canada, I would highly recommend the seal driver from Real World Cycling. They ship fast and are very knowledgeable. If you're thinking "I don't need to buy a driver for $XX" then I won't try to convince anyone otherwise.

    But to me, the value of having the right tool is well worth it.
  • 08-24-2017
    arnea
    I got my seals from Shockcraft yesterday. I think it was 40 euros total with shipping and local VAT. I made an installation tool from PVC pipe and used stanchion as a guide for installation. It was very easy to install. Some pics of the pipe - it is 40mm outer diameter and one end is wider so you can join the pipes. I cut away the part where the seal was and trimmed the pipe so that when I put the pipe over the stanchion there was enough stanchion left to go into the bushing in lowers.






  • 08-24-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stratus View Post
    Are those flangeless/flanged? In other words are they easy to install by hand without press-in tool?
    Anyone seen them available in Europe yet?

    New seals are flanged and go in nicely. We've got Manitou and RWC seal drivers here. RWC is fantastic for the flangeless, but for flanged seals even a socket will work.

    We were the first to get them at Shockcraft and yes we post to europe.
  • 08-25-2017
    nashwillis
    I have a mattoc tool kit I will sell, I only used one of the tools once. I have an add on pink bike. PM me
  • 08-28-2017
    ColinL
    This weekend I did a full service on my well-used 26" Mattoc Expert with IRT. I installed new RWC seals that I've had on hand a good long while - since before the new ones from Manitou were available.

    Manitou's service video and written instructions are pretty clear that you set the damper oil height when the rebound rod is fully extended. Which, interestingly, I only have just realized is not the case any time you have the lowers installed unless you happen to run a 26" fork at 170mm. Otherwise, what happens is that you've got some lesser amount of max travel, which brings the rebound rod in by that amount. In my case, I run 140mm on my Blur TR.

    I totally have done that in the past. I had poor performance from the fork and took the damper cover off while the fork is on the bike, and then removed damper oil which I believed to be overfilled. But 80mm down (for Expert, or 77mm down for Pro) is not right when the rebound knob is pushed in 30mm.

    ...Anyway, I'm expecting a lot different performance now. The seals seem to be much lower friction and I have the correct damper fluid level.
  • 08-28-2017
    twodogsfighting
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stratus View Post
    Are those flangeless/flanged? In other words are they easy to install by hand without press-in tool?
    Anyone seen them available in Europe yet?

    Where did you manage to get one? Their site isn't really cooperative at the moment.

    https://www.wheelies.co.uk/p104206/U...Tool-1702.aspx
  • 08-28-2017
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    This weekend I did a full service on my well-used 26" Mattoc Expert with IRT. I installed new RWC seals that I've had on hand a good long while - since before the new ones from Manitou were available.

    Manitou's service video and written instructions are pretty clear that you set the damper oil height when the rebound rod is fully extended. Which, interestingly, I only have just realized is not the case any time you have the lowers installed unless you happen to run a 26" fork at 170mm. Otherwise, what happens is that you've got some lesser amount of max travel, which brings the rebound rod in by that amount. In my case, I run 140mm on my Blur TR.

    I totally have done that in the past. I had poor performance from the fork and took the damper cover off while the fork is on the bike, and then removed damper oil which I believed to be overfilled. But 80mm down (for Expert, or 77mm down for Pro) is not right when the rebound knob is pushed in 30mm.

    ...Anyway, I'm expecting a lot different performance now. The seals seem to be much lower friction and I have the correct damper fluid level.



    Off to watch the videos - I wonder if I did something wrong on my 150mm mattoc.......
  • 08-28-2017
    ktm520
    been a long time since I've looked at videos and manual, but the oil charts clearly instruct setting height with lowers installed.

    https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conten...m_new-REV2.pdf
  • 08-28-2017
    Dougal
    The difference in oil level between shaft fully extended and legs on doesn't matter. Even set at full extension you can easily fully compress the shaft.

    The only issue you may have is setting oil level for shorter travel and then running longer (i.e. not enough oil) which can cause foaming.
  • 08-29-2017
    ColinL
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ktm520 View Post
    been a long time since I've looked at videos and manual, but the oil charts clearly instruct setting height with lowers installed.

    https://www.manitoumtb.com/wp-conten...m_new-REV2.pdf

    Hmm, perhaps I had a bit too much beer while doing the service. The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e81ZjaRq3XU

    The legs are installed when setting damper oil height. Which, as Dougal and others pointed out, does mean that the rebound rod is all the way in.
  • 08-29-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    The legs are installed when setting damper oil height. Which, as Dougal and others pointed out, does mean that the rebound rod is all the way in.

    Legs should always be installed with damper rods fully extended. Otherwise you pull a vacuum in the lower legs which screws with setup and function.

    Pushing the rebound rod in is a check to ensure you have full stroke without excessive pressure buildup. The rod needs extended again before reassembly.
  • 08-29-2017
    CS645
    I will possibly be opening up the compression shimstack on my wifes Mattoc expert tomorrow. If anyone wants me to check, measure or photograph something just let me know. I'll check if the piston has a shim preloading ridge and if so try to measure it's exact height.

    From what I've read on mtb-news this should be the stack:

    10x12x0,2
    10x21x0,2
    8x11x0,25
    8x17,5x0,1
    --------------
    10x25x0,15
  • 08-29-2017
    xeren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I will possibly be opening up the compression shimstack on my wifes Mattoc expert tomorrow. If anyone wants me to check, measure or photograph something just let me know. I'll check if the piston has a shim preloading ridge and if so try to measure it's exact height.

    From what I've read on mtb-news this should be the stack:

    10x12x0,2
    10x21x0,2
    8x11x0,25
    8x17,5x0,1
    --------------
    10x25x0,15

    huh- so the expert damper uses 2 different internal diameter shims, 8 and 10mm?

    that looks like a (relatively) complicated shim stack- a speed shim, and then a spacer for the platform shim, then a smaller OD shim to prevent it from blowing off too big? not sure what "10x25x0,15" refers to - the blowoff on the back side of the damper?
  • 08-29-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    I will possibly be opening up the compression shimstack on my wifes Mattoc expert tomorrow. If anyone wants me to check, measure or photograph something just let me know. I'll check if the piston has a shim preloading ridge and if so try to measure it's exact height.

    From what I've read on mtb-news this should be the stack:

    10x12x0,2
    10x21x0,2
    8x11x0,25
    8x17,5x0,1
    --------------
    10x25x0,15

    Some have 8x17.5x0.1mm and 8x11x0.25mm shims on the piston face. Later ones don't. Those are not adjustable by the dials.

    The 10mm ID shims which are preloaded by the HSC dial are:
    10x21x0.2mm and 10x12x0.2mm

    25mm sounds like the blowoff. I haven't got that one written down.
  • 08-29-2017
    xeren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Some have 8x17.5x0.1mm and 8x11x0.25mm shims on the piston face. Later ones don't. Those are not adjustable by the dials.

    The 10mm ID shims which are preloaded by the HSC dial are:
    10x21x0.2mm and 10x12x0.2mm

    25mm sounds like the blowoff. I haven't got that one written down.

    interesting - so some of the later ones just have the larger blowoff shims, and then when the HSC dial is turned up, preloading them, they act more like an XC stack with a good amount of platform? or does the 12mm OD shim make the 21mm shim act differently?

    oh, by chance do you know what shims the pro damper uses? I can check myself when I have time, but if you know off the top of your head, i would be interested to hear
  • 08-29-2017
    fsrxc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    huh- so the expert damper uses 2 different internal diameter shims, 8 and 10mm?

    that looks like a (relatively) complicated shim stack- a speed shim, and then a spacer for the platform shim, then a smaller OD shim to prevent it from blowing off too big? not sure what "10x25x0,15" refers to - the blowoff on the back side of the damper?

    Yes, I looked at mine, then decided to leave the compression stack(s) alone.
  • 08-29-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by xeren View Post
    oh, by chance do you know what shims the pro damper uses?

    Same for Mattoc Pro and Expert.

    The Plus sized Magnums run another, additional, compression shim.

    Keep in mind Manitou are continually developing and assessing tunes. So they can change with different delivery dates.
  • 08-30-2017
    CS645
    3 Attachment(s)
    Shimstack 2014 Mattoc Expert
    (Dougal has indicated that later models can have different stack configurations).

    Ok some information on the compression shimstack (unfortunately someone nicked the battery out of my caliper, so I have to approximate it from the analog scale).

    I can confirm it was the shimstack on the left in this 2014 Mattoc expert. Changed it to the shim order on the right, as suggested by someone to reduce HSC damping (this is my wifes Mattoc and I suspect the original HSC configuration is a bit too much for her weight):


    Original: changed to:
    10x12x0,2 10x21x0,2
    10x21x0,2 10x12x0,2
    8x11x0,25 8x17,5x0,1
    8x17,5x0,1 8x11x0,25
    ----------- --------- piston
    10x25x0,15 10x25x0,15


    If I understand the workings of the stack correctly this changed stack order will reduce the preload on the 21mm shim and creates room between the piston ports and the 17.5mm shim, thus reducing HSC. Probably oversimplifying things so better take this with a grain of salt.

    The stack side of the piston has a about 1mm high ridge with an internal diameter of about 19mm.

    That means that the 17,5 shim falls inside it and the 21mm shim on top of it. Also the 11mm shim does not block any piston ports in this new order.

    The shaft on the other side of the stack has a ledge with a 12mm diameter and about 0.5mm thickness. The shaft itself has a 16mm diameter.

    I had hoped to use my torquewrench to measure the torque on the compression assembly, but it already came lose with the minimum 6Nm of the wrench. So guessed it and torqued it to about 3-5Nm. Hope that is ok?

    Now trying to get the air out of the oil before reassembling.

    Stack side of the piston:
    Attachment 1154986

    Other side of the piston (the 10x25x0,15 shim sits on top of this side):
    Attachment 1154988

    Shaft with the 12mm diameter ledge:
    Attachment 1154990


    Ok, fork reassembled. Dials work properly. I think the HSC dial has about 5 positions now. Can't give a ride report till about 1.5 weeks. I'll see how this goes while waiting for a better solution from Dougal.
  • 08-31-2017
    Stratus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by twodogsfighting View Post

    Thanks!
    Seals from Shockcraft should be underway.

    Nice work CS645!
  • 09-01-2017
    RoboS
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Shimstack 2014 Mattoc Expert
    Original: changed to:
    10x12x0,2 10x21x0,2
    10x21x0,2 10x12x0,2
    8x11x0,25 8x17,5x0,1
    8x17,5x0,1 8x11x0,25
    ----------- --------- piston
    10x25x0,15 10x25x0,15

    I'm afraid that your shim stack keeps compression ports open all the time. 11mm OD shim can't cover the holes, so it leaves a gap under 17.5mm shim. On platform shims, there will probably almost no change at all.

    I tried yesterday to remove the platform shim (21mm OD), fork was much smoother, but of course I lost HSC adjustability (HSC dial preloads that shim). In the end, I've put everything back as I was afraid of destroying the 17.5x0.1 shim to handle all compression damping alone.
  • 09-01-2017
    Kiwiplague
    I noticed that the newest version of the Mattoc (debuted at eurobike) is capable of running 170mm of travel in the 27.5 version. Any idea how this was done and is it likely to be a backwards compatible modification or part?
  • 09-01-2017
    Dougal
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    I noticed that the newest version of the Mattoc (debuted at eurobike) is capable of running 170mm of travel in the 27.5 version. Any idea how this was done and is it likely to be a backwards compatible modification or part?

    I'll let you know when I get mine.

    This one was released in July (don't you read my emails!) but I think just shipping now. Boost only, not plus and fits up 2.6" rubber.
  • 09-01-2017
    Kiwiplague
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I'll let you know when I get mine.

    This one was released in July (don't you read my emails!) but I think just shipping now. Boost only, not plus and fits up 2.6" rubber.

    Usually I do, must have missed that bit, probably as soon as I saw the boost part lol. Having just recently gotten a new wheel set I'd be seriously pushing my luck with the better half if I suddenly told her I needed a new fork!

    As an aside, the new seals are working nicely, I'm certainly pleased with them.
  • 09-01-2017
    phreeky
    The old non-boost fitted 2.6" just fine with some low-profile 2.8s sneaking in. Now you need the boost non-plus to hit 2.6"? That seems odd.

    2017:
    100 MATTOC 27.5 x 2.4 63mm
    110 MATTOC 27.5 x 2.6 67mm

    2015:
    MATTOC 12.0mm 68mm

    Of course max diameter is now in the spec and was previously missing.
  • 09-01-2017
    CS645
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RoboS View Post
    I'm afraid that your shim stack keeps compression ports open all the time. 11mm OD shim can't cover the holes, so it leaves a gap under 17.5mm shim. On platform shims, there will probably almost no change at all.

    I tried yesterday to remove the platform shim (21mm OD), fork was much smoother, but of course I lost HSC adjustability (HSC dial preloads that shim). In the end, I've put everything back as I was afraid of destroying the 17.5x0.1 shim to handle all compression damping alone.

    Yes, I know. I understood from Dougal his previous reply that some Mattoc don't even have the 8x17,5x0,1 so figured that bypassing it would not be a major drama. It's only a temporary thing, to see how the fork feels.

    I will soon be buying a useful collection of shims and mess around with it a bit. I'm afraid it will be on my own Mattoc though, because I'm not sure my wife let me near her's again anytime soon.

    The ABS+ tune guide helps tremendeous in giving an idea what effect each shims has (although it still depends a lot on the damper layout of course).
  • 09-01-2017
    mullen119
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by CS645 View Post
    Yes, I know. I understood from Dougal his previous reply that some Mattoc don't even have the 8x17,5x0,1 so figured that bypassing it would not be a major drama. It's only a temporary thing, to see how the fork feels.

    I will soon be buying a useful collection of shims and mess around with it a bit. I'm afraid it will be on my own Mattoc though, because I'm not sure my wife let me near her's again anytime soon.

    The ABS+ tune guide helps tremendeous in giving an idea what effect each shims has (although it still depends a lot on the damper layout of course).

    The 8mm ID shims do not need to cover the ports, you get a seal with the 10mm ID shims (assuming you don't have the hsc adjustment set up to give you float, which you shouldn't, especially on a mattoc).

    Use the 8mm shims to control port size when you are tuning(adjusting diameter rather than thickness, though you can change thickness as well as a more advanced tuning method). You can add shims under the larger 8mm ID shims to give a little free bleed under the 8mm stack.

    Use the 8mm stack to control low and mid speed damping(by controlling port size and bleed), the 10mm stack mostly controls high speed.

    These same concepts are used in tuning the McLeod.