Ibis Traction Tune- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Ibis Traction Tune

    FINALLY! All the other bike manufacturers should follow this example. Itís called "Common Sense" and it was about time

    - Less compression?
    Yes please
    - Matching front and rear suspensions? Yes please
    - Data acquisition system to stop the guesstimations once and for all?
    Yes please

    Source: https://www.mtb-mag.com/en/ibis-trac...ne-philosophy/

  2. #2
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    Yes it makes sense in theory, the wheel moves faster and gets out/over the obstacle as fast as possible.

    If you are heavier or faster than the mean average, this goes out the window.

    One watch of Jeff Kendall Weed's new video on the new Ibis you will understand. Ibis rep sets the bike up as he thinks is "optimal", JKW does run after run..... every run he firms up compression and slows rebound to the exact opposite of their "optimal" setting. It made me laugh because Jeff is extremely positive/supportive of all his sponsors (almost too much sometimes) but I actually liked this breath of fresh air where he went against the grain of the hand that feeds him.

    TLDR: Great in Theory, may not be your cup of tea.

  3. #3
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    I have the same opinion of yeti's tune calculator. I have no idea how at 180lbs I could get away running the grip 2 fox 36 and x2 completely wide open on compression and a solid 3-4 clicks faster rebound then I find controllable.

  4. #4
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    You mean they measured what was happening and adjusted accordingly? Then what the **** have they been doing for the last 35 years? Just winging it?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by brash View Post
    Yes it makes sense in theory, the wheel moves faster and gets out/over the obstacle as fast as possible.

    If you are heavier or faster than the mean average, this goes out the window.

    One watch of Jeff Kendall Weed's new video on the new Ibis you will understand. Ibis rep sets the bike up as he thinks is "optimal", JKW does run after run..... every run he firms up compression and slows rebound to the exact opposite of their "optimal" setting. It made me laugh because Jeff is extremely positive/supportive of all his sponsors (almost too much sometimes) but I actually liked this breath of fresh air where he went against the grain of the hand that feeds him.

    TLDR: Great in Theory, may not be your cup of tea.

    I had a similar impression. This seems to be tuned for folks who don't push their bikes all that hard and want "plushness" above everything else. Folks who ride hard and put large impacts into their bikes are going to have a bad day with this tune.

    Running a light compression tune means you're depending almost entirely on the air spring to prevent bottoming, which means you'll need to run a pretty progressive spring setup if you want to maintain small & medium size bump compliance. Which means that sucker is going to kick back hard on the rebound stroke, and with the super light rebound tune they're advocating there's no way to absorb that energy so it'll bounce back hard and buck you right off the bike. There's a reason that Jeff Kendall Weed runs a lot more compression & rebound damping than the Ibis recommendations, he doesn't want to die from getting bounced around and bucked off the bike.

    We went through this already with elastomer suspension back in the day, I don't know why we're trying to repeat the same mistake with modern suspension parts.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    We went through this already with elastomer suspension back in the day, I don't know why we're trying to repeat the same mistake with modern suspension parts.
    Some industry people seem to think that compression damping is only to improve pedalling performance.

  7. #7
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    Got clarification from Ibis. They are keeping and recommending normal LSC and opening up the HSC and Rebound.

    Here's what I ride my HD4 at:

    2018 FOX 36 RC2 160:

    • 85-90PSI
    • -18 out of 22 HSC at the lighter end of the scale.
    • -15 out of 25 LSC. middle of the range.
    • Rebound is slower -5 from fully closed.


    Fox X2 at 240PSI and Ibis recommended settings. Maybe 1 click less HSC.

    Closer look at things, as a heavier aggressive rider I will probably get along fine with the Compression tune. Still have the range I need in the adjusters.

    Still unsure about the Rebound as I'm only -5 from fully closed.

  8. #8
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    First im a novice pretty much.... so my experience might means p#$s all.


    i agree w the ibis approach to tuning, but could this just be some creative marketing to promote things everyone already does. Hard to believe no manufacturers have tested their bikeís suspensions.

  9. #9
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    I think this is just a larger sign that people have no idea what they are doing with suspension set up - which has nothing to do with the complexity of process but rather the stupidity of the general population.
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I think this is just a larger sign that people have no idea what they are doing with suspension set up - which has nothing to do with the complexity of process but rather the stupidity of the general population.
    The other part of the problem is that most suspension is simply untunable. A RS Pike which is probably the most popular fork on the market has a wonky damper setup that still hasn't been fixed after 3 generations, and combined with its air spring curve it makes the fork damn near impossible to setup correctly for many people. You end up using all kinds of wonky compromise solutions & setups to try and make it work and you can even open up the damper to rework the internals and use aftermarket parts. But even after all that it barely works as well as stock Mattoc with half an hour of knob twiddling to get things in the ballpark.

    The market is filled with all kinds of dysfunctional suspension designs and all sorts of kludges, hack fixes, and mis-information to try and get around the suckage, it's no wonder the average person gets confused as hell. If every fork just worked like a Manitou, suspension setup would be a hell of a lot easier.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    I think this is just a larger sign that people have no idea what they are doing with suspension set up - which has nothing to do with the complexity of process but rather the stupidity of the general population.
    this. it's marketing.

    Fox offers OEMs different shim stack configs & base valves that they can pick out of a catalog. I doubt anyone is outsourcing for custom pistons, etc. "custom" is a very relative term, and at the end of the day, they still have to target the average rider of average weight on the average trail in average conditions. this is why i hate the marketing aspect of it, it's just setting unrealistic expectations and offering inflated value. shops like Vorsprung, Avalanche, and Shockcraft are your friend and offer real value if you have the time, patience, and funds.

    Ibis Traction Tune-avy-dhx2.jpg

  12. #12
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    But itís a move in the right direction instead of sticking the same tune to every size frame etc ...

    Custom tuned is better but a lot of people think itís not for them (I'm not racing so bla-bla-bla) ... or donít even know about it!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    this. it's marketing.

    Fox offers OEMs different shim stack configs & base valves that they can pick out of a catalog. I doubt anyone is outsourcing for custom pistons, etc. "custom" is a very relative term, and at the end of the day, they still have to target the average rider of average weight on the average trail in average conditions. this is why i hate the marketing aspect of it, it's just setting unrealistic expectations and offering inflated value. shops like Vorsprung, Avalanche, and Shockcraft are your friend and offer real value if you have the time, patience, and funds.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So much yes to everything you just said.

  14. #14
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    Data acquisition is very far from marketing! Even the tuners donít use them (or a very small percentage). Thatís how it should really be done.

    No wonder the top DH guys are relying more and more on it ... because itís impossible or very time consuming to guess what to change when you donít know whatís going on underneath you.

    I dislike the marketing speeches as much as the next guy and donít really want to comment on the light tune or whatever ... what I'm seeing here, is a very good starting point for reflection about what should be done to improve the not so great out-of-the-box suspensions.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Data acquisition is very far from marketing! Even the tuners donít use them (or a very small percentage). Thatís how it should really be done.

    No wonder the top DH guys are relying more and more on it ... because itís impossible or very time consuming to guess what to change when you donít know whatís going on underneath you.

    I dislike the marketing speeches as much as the next guy and donít really want to comment on the light tune or whatever ... what I'm seeing here, is a very good starting point for reflection about what should be done to improve the not so great out-of-the-box suspensions.
    What the WC riders are doing is setting the bike up to be as fast as possible, this would be totally different to a "comfort" or a setup that any mere mortal will use. These race setups would be so stiff and un-rideable at anything under 10/10ths race pace.

    Your average joe blow trail hacker needs something they feel comfortable on.

    I'm not talking comfort as in soft cushy suspension, rather confidence comfy. The WC guys are on the "kill deathstar 5000" tunes.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Data acquisition is very far from marketing! Even the tuners donít use them (or a very small percentage). Thatís how it should really be done.

    No wonder the top DH guys are relying more and more on it ... because itís impossible or very time consuming to guess what to change when you donít know whatís going on underneath you.

    I dislike the marketing speeches as much as the next guy and donít really want to comment on the light tune or whatever ... what I'm seeing here, is a very good starting point for reflection about what should be done to improve the not so great out-of-the-box suspensions.
    they say "we were looking for wheel movement speeds of X"

    ok. why? yea, the data helps you get there, but why that number? and again, the wheel speeds are only relevant to a very specific set of circumstances.

    it's marketing because more likely than not that the numbers don't work for you. there are just so many variables. it's better than nothing, but i'd rather they just put the cost into using better factories or better paint or more paint options or whatever. and, no amount of "custom" (picking stuff out of a catalog) tuning will help the inherent limitations of a factory design. examples: X2 midvalve, Charger 2 midvalve, Grip 2 negative spring.



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ibis Traction Tune-30821621_2045917735647068_2918488629673196449_o.jpg  

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerius View Post
    I had a similar impression. This seems to be tuned for folks who don't push their bikes all that hard and want "plushness" above everything else. Folks who ride hard and put large impacts into their bikes are going to have a bad day with this tune.

    Running a light compression tune means you're depending almost entirely on the air spring to prevent bottoming, which means you'll need to run a pretty progressive spring setup if you want to maintain small & medium size bump compliance. Which means that sucker is going to kick back hard on the rebound stroke, and with the super light rebound tune they're advocating there's no way to absorb that energy so it'll bounce back hard and buck you right off the bike. There's a reason that Jeff Kendall Weed runs a lot more compression & rebound damping than the Ibis recommendations, he doesn't want to die from getting bounced around and bucked off the bike.

    We went through this already with elastomer suspension back in the day, I don't know why we're trying to repeat the same mistake with modern suspension parts.


    It's almost, kinda, like we're all different in our preferences, experiences, expectations, and likes.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    it's almost, kinda, like we're all different in our speed and ability.
    fify

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    It's almost, kinda, like we're all different in our preferences, experiences, expectations, and likes.

    Lots of people take advantage of clever marketing tactics. This isnt the first nor the last.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post

    it's marketing because more likely than not that the numbers don't work for you. there are just so many variables. it's better than nothing, but i'd rather they just put the cost into using better factories or better paint or more paint options or whatever. and, no amount of "custom" (picking stuff out of a catalog) tuning will help the inherent limitations of a factory design. examples: X2 midvalve, Charger 2 midvalve, Grip 2 negative spring.
    That's not marketing, that's just reality. MOST people who buy $8k enduro/trail bikes aren't wringing them out on pro-level enduro courses. Ibis could tune their bikes to make JKW happy but he's an outlier, an extreme edge case. Folks like JKW (and you apparently) want a different feel - fortunately, you and JKW know how to tune your suspension accordingly. If Ibis, on the other hand, tuned for JKW, the dentists (I'm not a dentist but I ride like one) with no idea what those colorful knobs do would be screwed.
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  21. #21
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    A light tune is good. The range should be perfect for 90% of riders, even big aggressive ones.
    The "Traction Tune" moniker is marketing.
    Making shit harder than it needs to be isn't awesome, it's just...harder.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    A light tune is good. The range should be perfect for 90% of riders, even big aggressive ones.
    The "Traction Tune" moniker is marketing.
    Sums it up pretty well!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FactoryMatt View Post
    fify
    Touche.

    Desire has more to do with it than speed and ability.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Data acquisition is very far from marketing! Even the tuners donít use them (or a very small percentage). Thatís how it should really be done.

    No wonder the top DH guys are relying more and more on it ... because itís impossible or very time consuming to guess what to change when you donít know whatís going on underneath you.

    I dislike the marketing speeches as much as the next guy and donít really want to comment on the light tune or whatever ... what I'm seeing here, is a very good starting point for reflection about what should be done to improve the not so great out-of-the-box suspensions.
    Data acquisition can get out of hand really quickly. Generating massive amounts of data that if sorted or analysed wrong is completely useless.
    The massive limitation is in only measuring the outside of the assembled box.

    It's the most use when you've got riders who can punish gear a lot more than the engineers can (i.e. racers) but those riders tend to suck at giving feedback on exactly what is doing what.

    But then you need to link in your multi-channel data stream with a trail map location and video of the lines taken.
    Suddenly it's not a bike with a data logger attached any more. It's a heavy data logger with wheels!
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