HSCV cartridge in an AM-1?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    HSCV cartridge in an AM-1?

    Would it be possible to drop an HSCV cartridge in a 2005 AM-1? My AM-1 feels pretty good, but it's still not as plush as my 2004 Z-1 FR. I pretty much never use the various settings on the TST cartridge, as mostly just leave it in the most plush compression mode. Would it be possible to take the cartridge from the 04 Z-1 and put it in the AM-1? Would this affect travel (since Z-1 is 130mm and AM-1 is set at 150mm)? Thanks for any advice.

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    How old is the AM1? Have you checked the oil bath oil to see if it's nasty or the volume is inadequate?

    It's very possible to make the swap. In fact, the 2005 Z1's are 150mm HSCV's, so if you want to stay at 150mm then you could buy a cartridge from Zoke (for an arm and a leg).

    In terms of performance, IMHO, I think that you're making a lateral swap though, or even a downgrade. I've tried my buddy's Marathon XC versus my Marathon S (hscv) and I thought that my fork feels like his fork with one or two clicks of TST added (firmer than the DS setting).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Thunder
    Would it be possible to drop an HSCV cartridge in a 2005 AM-1? My AM-1 feels pretty good, but it's still not as plush as my 2004 Z-1 FR. I pretty much never use the various settings on the TST cartridge, as mostly just leave it in the most plush compression mode. Would it be possible to take the cartridge from the 04 Z-1 and put it in the AM-1? Would this affect travel (since Z-1 is 130mm and AM-1 is set at 150mm)? Thanks for any advice.
    Selling that AM1 and getting a Z1FR1 (or whatever they're calling it for '06). You get great damping, 150mm of travel, and a 20mm axle. Your experience with the AM1, however, doesn't sound normal. Most people with that fork have been totally satisfied. Bikerx40 may be right about you possibly having a setup problem or even a malfunction in that fork...just doesn't sound right.

  4. #4
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    The 2004 Z150 HSCV cart will go in a 150mm All Mountain 1. The 2005 HSCV cart is much more expensive than the 2004. You will also need a 2004 top cap. The foot nuts are the same. The uppers on the 2004 forks are identical to the 2005.

    If I remember right the 2004 Z150 cart was like $90 from Marzocchi. I think the 2005 Z1FR1 cart was about $130.

    I upgraded my 2004 Z1FR to 150mm by buying a 2004 Z150 ETA and HSCV cart. I had to buy 2005 Z1FR1 springs so they would fit. The Z150 springs are too wide. I just used the caps I already had.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severum
    The 2004 Z150 HSCV cart will go in a 150mm All Mountain 1. The 2005 HSCV cart is much more expensive than the 2004. You will also need a 2004 top cap. The foot nuts are the same. The uppers on the 2004 forks are identical to the 2005.

    If I remember right the 2004 Z150 cart was like $90 from Marzocchi. I think the 2005 Z1FR1 cart was about $130.

    I upgraded my 2004 Z1FR to 150mm by buying a 2004 Z150 ETA and HSCV cart. I had to buy 2005 Z1FR1 springs so they would fit. The Z150 springs are too wide. I just used the caps I already had.
    LOL!...We talked about this a good while back on the two Z150SLs that I modified. Is yours still doing the job? My two are still at work and performing great. I still wonder about the original poster's setup. The AM1 is an excellent fork. We just put one on a riding buddy's bike, and it's an impressive fork.

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    Make sure you check you change your oil and check your air pressure in your AM1 before that swap. If you haven't changed the oil in your AM1 after the initial 10-20 hours of use then I'm sure this would make a big improvement, and make sure you fill it back with the right amount, just a bit too much and you loose some travel. I'm really surprised that your AM1 could feel less plush then a 2004 Z-1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Thunder
    Would it be possible to drop an HSCV cartridge in a 2005 AM-1? My AM-1 feels pretty good, but it's still not as plush as my 2004 Z-1 FR. I pretty much never use the various settings on the TST cartridge, as mostly just leave it in the most plush compression mode. Would it be possible to take the cartridge from the 04 Z-1 and put it in the AM-1? Would this affect travel (since Z-1 is 130mm and AM-1 is set at 150mm)? Thanks for any advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    LOL!...We talked about this a good while back on the two Z150SLs that I modified. Is yours still doing the job? My two are still at work and performing great. I still wonder about the original poster's setup. The AM1 is an excellent fork. We just put one on a riding buddy's bike, and it's an impressive fork.
    The fork rides better than it did at 130mm. I got the fork in trade in a while back from Marzocchi. So with the added $200 I still was no where near retail. I used the other carts on some dirt jumpers to make Z1s. I love Marzocchi.

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    I've always noticed Marzocchi forks that require air preload are not as smooth or plush on the small stuff as the pure coil forks with no preload.

    I don't think it has anything to do with the damping.


    Even Zoke dual coil forks get a little initial stiction when you add air to preload them. This does go away somwhat over time though...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robot Chicken
    I've always noticed Marzocchi forks that require air preload are not as smooth or plush on the small stuff as the pure coil forks with no preload.

    I don't think it has anything to do with the damping.


    Even Zoke dual coil forks get a little initial stiction when you add air to preload them. This does go away somwhat over time though...
    Not damping bro... lots of people have noticed that air assist makes this. Probably stiction for the "air ready" seals or just the spring rate of the air.
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  10. #10
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    I switched from a 2004 Z1 FR to an AM1 (kept Z1 lowers) and the AM1 felt better from the get go (I got a slightly used one, so it was already broken in, and I also kept my broken in sliders). As Banzai suggested, you probably haven't changed your oil since you got the fork? It makes an amazing amount of difference. I am certain that just about any Z1 owner would be happy to swap the TST cart for their HSCV, as it is a significant downgrade for you and upgrade for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    I switched from a 2004 Z1 FR to an AM1 (kept Z1 lowers) and the AM1 felt better from the get go (I got a slightly used one, so it was already broken in, and I also kept my broken in sliders). As Banzai suggested, you probably haven't changed your oil since you got the fork? It makes an amazing amount of difference. I am certain that just about any Z1 owner would be happy to swap the TST cart for their HSCV, as it is a significant downgrade for you and upgrade for them._MK
    I agree... the oil should be changed before the thought of changing the internals.

    As for the TST vs HSCV arguement... I can't 100% agree. I am blown away by the TSTs adjustability... but don't think they feel better travel wise at speed then any fairly current zoke I have ridden with HSCV. For trail riding, the TST with it's platform like ability is the way to go.

    I am led to believe that the TST effects the slow speed compression and the high speed dampening is very much like the straight hscv cart. I am willing to be informed otherwise though.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severum
    I agree... the oil should be changed before the thought of changing the internals.

    As for the TST vs HSCV arguement... I can't 100% agree. I am blown away by the TSTs adjustability... but don't think they feel better travel wise at speed then any fairly current zoke I have ridden with HSCV. For trail riding, the TST with it's platform like ability is the way to go.

    I am led to believe that the TST effects the slow speed compression and the high speed dampening is very much like the straight hscv cart. I am willing to be informed otherwise though.
    They way that TST works is not like HSCV. HSCV has a piston with shims and the shims flex and oil is forced past them. TST has an orofice and the amount of compression damping is varied by the expansion of the bladder.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    They way that TST works is not like HSCV. HSCV has a piston with shims and the shims flex and oil is forced past them. TST has an orofice and the amount of compression damping is varied by the expansion of the bladder.
    That and simple blow-off valves and orifices....

    Check the other thread about "TST Revealed"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    They way that TST works is not like HSCV. HSCV has a piston with shims and the shims flex and oil is forced past them. TST has an orofice and the amount of compression damping is varied by the expansion of the bladder.
    ok, inside the fork there is a difference in operation at high speeds, but outside the fork, it sounds like they act very alike. My intention was to describe how the fork felt to me on the trail, not how it worked inside. Gotta work on making sense.

    I just read most of the revealed post... very interesting. Makes me spend less time pondering when the questions are already answered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Severum
    ok, inside the fork there is a difference in operation at high speeds, but outside the fork, it sounds like they act very alike. My intention was to describe how the fork felt to me on the trail, not how it worked inside. Gotta work on making sense.

    I just read most of the revealed post... very interesting. Makes me spend less time pondering when the questions are already answered.
    You just said it very eloquently actually...

    TST is tuned for trail job.

    HSCV may be the best all-arounder.

    Some TST with HSCV shims would be my wet-dreams come true. Zoke is not that far from getting it done. But it's gonna be expensive...

    Basically... Fox and Manitou did it right the way they made their damper/cartrigde. Putting the compression damper on top and the rebound one below. Now Marzocchi followed. Manitou lawyers haven't realized about it, but it's pretty close to infringe Manitou TPC design... but as Angry Asian said... in patents, you just need things to be different enough, not completely different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003

    Basically... Fox and Manitou did it right the way they made their damper/cartrigde. Putting the compression damper on top and the rebound one below. Now Marzocchi followed. Manitou lawyers haven't realized about it, but it's pretty close to infringe Manitou TPC design... but as Angry Asian said... in patents, you just need things to be different enough, not completely different.
    No, if you've taken apart a TPC damper, you'd know that the TST is nothing like it. The principle of operation and how it works is obviously different.

    You might be referring to the fact that there's a shaft with a piston, but if that's the criteria you are using, then every damper around is violating the Marzocchi XC-series forks and rockshox Mag-series, the first forks to use open-bath damping with pistons and shims.

    The TPC system allowed for a fairly high oil volume compared to smaller sealed cartridges, allowed for the compression piston to be on top and attached to the top cap via a rod, and the bottom piston to be attached to the lowers via a foot nut, this is a good arrangement, and provides very good damping. The only fault is lubrication, and the fact that the TPC catridge has to be sealed inside of the fork. Other than that, TPC is a darn good system, and TPC+ just builds on it, and TPC+ takes it further in the same direction, which is away from TST and the bladder controlled compression.

    But, I will have a direct HSCV/TST comparission. I just ordered an HSCV cartridge for my ZAM1 hybrid. I never use the AM or CL settings, and I prioritize high speed performance, and generally suspension performance (in contrast to pedaling performance). I've had good results with the HSCV catridges before, and I'm curious as to if I am getting any spiking at higher speeds with the TST, and I'll soon know for sure.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    Some TST with HSCV shims would be my wet-dreams come true. Zoke is not that far from getting it done. But it's gonna be expensive...
    I agree. This is sort of where motorcycle forks have gone recently, and getting it all tuned right has caused some problems in the Mx world, but the 2nd generation and later "bladder" systems seem to have fixed the first problems that were incurred.

    This type of system could truely offer great low speed and high speed performance. Not that there isn't this already in some respects, but IMO it can only get better, and this may be a way to do that.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    No, if you've taken apart a TPC damper, you'd know that the TST is nothing like it. The principle of operation and how it works is obviously different.

    You might be referring to the fact that there's a shaft with a piston, but if that's the criteria you are using, then every damper around is violating the Marzocchi XC-series forks and rockshox Mag-series, the first forks to use open-bath damping with pistons and shims.

    The TPC system allowed for a fairly high oil volume compared to smaller sealed cartridges, allowed for the compression piston to be on top and attached to the top cap via a rod, and the bottom piston to be attached to the lowers via a foot nut, this is a good arrangement, and provides very good damping. The only fault is lubrication, and the fact that the TPC catridge has to be sealed inside of the fork. Other than that, TPC is a darn good system, and TPC+ just builds on it, and TPC+ takes it further in the same direction, which is away from TST and the bladder controlled compression.

    But, I will have a direct HSCV/TST comparission. I just ordered an HSCV cartridge for my ZAM1 hybrid. I never use the AM or CL settings, and I prioritize high speed performance, and generally suspension performance (in contrast to pedaling performance). I've had good results with the HSCV catridges before, and I'm curious as to if I am getting any spiking at higher speeds with the TST, and I'll soon know for sure.
    I know all of that... that's what I referred to with "in patents things just have to be different enough"... I know Manitou actually patented the TPC... not sure about the older Zokes and RS's.

    If lubrication is a fault of TPC... why Marzocchi went that way with TST?? They also called Manitou crazy about their Post mounts for brakes...

    OTOH, I'm happy to see some standarization.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    No, if you've taken apart a TPC damper, you'd know that the TST is nothing like it. The principle of operation and how it works is obviously different.

    You might be referring to the fact that there's a shaft with a piston, but if that's the criteria you are using, then every damper around is violating the Marzocchi XC-series forks and rockshox Mag-series, the first forks to use open-bath damping with pistons and shims.

    The TPC system allowed for a fairly high oil volume compared to smaller sealed cartridges, allowed for the compression piston to be on top and attached to the top cap via a rod, and the bottom piston to be attached to the lowers via a foot nut, this is a good arrangement, and provides very good damping. The only fault is lubrication, and the fact that the TPC catridge has to be sealed inside of the fork. Other than that, TPC is a darn good system, and TPC+ just builds on it, and TPC+ takes it further in the same direction, which is away from TST and the bladder controlled compression.

    But, I will have a direct HSCV/TST comparission. I just ordered an HSCV cartridge for my ZAM1 hybrid. I never use the AM or CL settings, and I prioritize high speed performance, and generally suspension performance (in contrast to pedaling performance). I've had good results with the HSCV catridges before, and I'm curious as to if I am getting any spiking at higher speeds with the TST, and I'll soon know for sure.
    Well Jayem...there you go again...LOL! That will be interesting to see any notable differences in the damping quality. Obviously I've had lots of riding time on various HSCV forks, but I've been wanting to test out that AM1 on one of our riding buddy's bikes that we installed recently...but the joker won't come out and ride with us lately. It's hard for me to believe that in those high speed, rocky sections that the AM1 is going to be notably better than a good, properly tuned HSCV fork...but I'm willing to be convinced. Let us know how this turns out.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    I know all of that... that's what I referred to with "in patents things just have to be different enough"... I know Manitou actually patented the TPC... not sure about the older Zokes and RS's.

    If lubrication is a fault of TPC... why Marzocchi went that way with TST?? They also called Manitou crazy about their Post mounts for brakes...

    OTOH, I'm happy to see some standarization.
    Simple, manitou never really embraced "open bath" damping, and the most they ever got was a little oil sloshing down in there in the most recent models, and whether or not it really gets up on the legs I have to wonder about. Marzocchi on the other hand has had open bath damping and the legs get constant lube, which is the same with the AM1, the 40cc of oil in the TST leg lube the legs and bushings, but the real thing here is that marzocchi has been using seals that KEEP oil IN the fork, even under extreme pressures. This is where the other companies have not really been able to compete, and why the "air assist" effect of the marzocchis is such a good thing.

    The "lubrication" fault of the TPC was that it had to be "microgreased" with the grease ports, and once the grease made it's way away from the surface it was trying to protect, it would just pack up somewhere in the fork and become inneffective. The "evil genius" seals came a little later, and that was a step in the right direction, but for the longest time they didn't run any oil for lube, relied on grease, and that grease system did not constantly slosh oil on the tubes as marzocchis "open bath" did.

    The benefit (as you pointed out somewhere else I believe) is that the oil remains much more cleaner. When I changed the oil in my X-vert it was green, so it looked brand new after about a year of use. TPC also combined this with a pretty large oil volume (at least for a closed damper).

    The other thing about open bath though is cooling, and more circulation should lead to more cooling and keeping certain parts from overheating, it may not be a huge concern, but it kind of works like the oil in our airplanes, it circulates to not only lubricate, but to cool and suspend particulates, so it serves a bunch of purposes.

    This isn't supposed to be a marzocchi-love-fest post, but TPC+ did a lot of things right, Good volume of oil, the floating piston made it very supple initially (like a marzocchi) and it had a shimmed-piston setup (like the cartridge marzocchis, but just with a different arrangement). The only places where it lacked was in the usage of materials (plastic) and lubrication.

    If you want to break down TPC even further, it's just a different arrangement of pistons as compared to a normal cartridge-fork, and cartridge forks were around for a long time before TPC, so TPC simply "arranged" the pistons differently, wasn't really working any differently, just looked different and arranged different.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Simple, manitou never really embraced "open bath" damping, and the most they ever got was a little oil sloshing down in there in the most recent models, and whether or not it really gets up on the legs I have to wonder about. Marzocchi on the other hand has had open bath damping and the legs get constant lube, which is the same with the AM1, the 40cc of oil in the TST leg lube the legs and bushings, but the real thing here is that marzocchi has been using seals that KEEP oil IN the fork, even under extreme pressures. This is where the other companies have not really been able to compete, and why the "air assist" effect of the marzocchis is such a good thing.
    I ain't gonna defend Manitous previous and current faults. Their seals suck and their plastic stuff too. The only fork always free of all these problems was the Sherman... and they pulled it out of their line, go figure!!

    But the "Open Bath" of the TST damped forks is the same thing than Manitou and RS. Believe me that it only takes a little oil film to protect the bushings and legs and if the seals are properly designed, it might even be a way to control bottom out by trapping air inside. Marzocchi and Fox (being this latter less important) systems do it at the top of the leg, Manitou and RS at the bottom.

    Yep... oil is kept pristine in a TPC damper... a friend of mine is running an old SX from '01... on the original oil and no probles. Just a bit of Prep-M now an then and it runs smooth, no play whatsoever at the bushings. It is a great fork.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Well Jayem...there you go again...LOL! That will be interesting to see any notable differences in the damping quality. Obviously I've had lots of riding time on various HSCV forks, but I've been wanting to test out that AM1 on one of our riding buddy's bikes that we installed recently...but the joker won't come out and ride with us lately. It's hard for me to believe that in those high speed, rocky sections that the AM1 is going to be notably better than a good, properly tuned HSCV fork...but I'm willing to be convinced. Let us know how this turns out.
    Check out the "TST Revealed" thread. There are some Machiavelic stuff for Frankenforking a TST / HSCV... If I would just have some money bags laying around....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    I ain't gonna defend Manitous previous and current faults. Their seals suck and their plastic stuff too. The only fork always free of all these problems was the Sherman... and they pulled it out of their line, go figure!!

    But the "Open Bath" of the TST damped forks is the same thing than Manitou and RS. Believe me that it only takes a little oil film to protect the bushings and legs and if the seals are properly designed, it might even be a way to control bottom out by trapping air inside. Marzocchi and Fox (being this latter less important) systems do it at the top of the leg, Manitou and RS at the bottom.

    Yep... oil is kept pristine in a TPC damper... a friend of mine is running an old SX from '01... on the original oil and no probles. Just a bit of Prep-M now an then and it runs smooth, no play whatsoever at the bushings. It is a great fork.
    Isn't Intrinsic open bath?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Isn't Intrinsic open bath?

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    I dunno to be sincere.... maybe. Cross-technology??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    I dunno to be sincere.... maybe. Cross-technology??
    Sounds like we need another Italian on the job to dissect the workings of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Sounds like we need another Italian on the job to dissect the workings of it.

    _MK
    Or at least another american brave enough to tear open an 800 bucks fork.

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    Oh yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    Check out the "TST Revealed" thread. There are some Machiavelic stuff for Frankenforking a TST / HSCV... If I would just have some money bags laying around....
    I read all that. Those hybrid air/coi Z150SLs that I built are comparitive simple stuff compared to some of the potential with all this TST stuff. I like to keep it simple...if I can get away with it. This is one of the things I like about the Van 36 that I got recently. I have 5 relatively high end forks, and not one of them has travel adjust, or TST, or ETA, or ABC, or XYZ...but they work reeeeal goooood...LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    I read all that. Those hybrid air/coi Z150SLs that I built are comparitive simple stuff compared to some of the potential with all this TST stuff. I like to keep it simple...if I can get away with it. This is one of the things I like about the Van 36 that I got recently. I have 5 relatively high end forks, and not one of them has travel adjust, or TST, or ETA, or ABC, or XYZ...but they work reeeeal goooood...LOL!
    Well... Then you would love my Suntour XCP-75 !!!
    No damping to care for, no spring rate to worry, no air to escape, stiff as not even Roco (not the zoke shock) could dream of... and you can have it just by putting one of those overcomplicated high-end stuff forks in a box and ship it to mexico!!!
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  29. #29
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    Lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    Well... Then you would love my Suntour XCP-75 !!!
    No damping to care for, no spring rate to worry, no air to escape, stiff as not even Roco (not the zoke shock) could dream of... and you can have it just by putting one of those overcomplicated high-end stuff forks in a box and ship it to mexico!!!
    You bet, Warp...when I send you the next Shimano cleat adjuster screw, I'll just throw in the Van 36. Hey, I did just notice that I still have an old RST Delta HL dual crown fork hanging on the wall. Oddly, the thing didn't work too badly. Get this...one of the guys I work with at the shop bought a new Heckler frame and built it up. He employee purchased a new Fox 125RLC, but it was back ordered for a month or so. He installed this RST dual crown (5") on his Heckler and rode the wad out of it until his fox arrived. At least he wasn't killed or maimed, and he said it wasn't near as bad as he thought it would be.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    I did just notice that I still have an old RST Delta HL dual crown fork hanging on the wall. Oddly, the thing didn't work too badly. Get this...one of the guys I work with at the shop bought a new Heckler frame and built it up. He employee purchased a new Fox 125RLC, but it was back ordered for a month or so. He installed this RST dual crown (5") on his Heckler and rode the wad out of it until his fox arrived. At least he wasn't killed or maimed, and he said it wasn't near as bad as he thought it would be.
    Hey, a buddy of mine rides one of those!!!! He just swapped the springs for some Jr. T ones or something. All Vee's no disc mounts. 5" of pure spring delight, no damping!

    He hasn't had a fall for so long that I just don't remember and he rides plain sick. We always are trying to catch upon him... but he and his Raleigh HT with that RST fork are just sick fast.

    I have pics to prove it!
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  31. #31
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    But wrong, compadre. They did have damping. From the old Hi-5 all the way to the end of that dual crown line, they had this funky air damped system. It actually worked to some degree. To tune it you could actually either make the air grooves deeper or fill them in with JB Weld to change the damping...LOL!...unique. Isn't the one in the pic a Hi-5? I had one of those and RST recalled them and replaced it with this Delta model...basically the same. The Delta has 68mm space disc brake caliper mounts, and I even have the oddball Hayes mount on it. Ah...I love history. Check this pic. Is it orange enough for ya.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_
    Isn't Intrinsic open bath?

    _MK
    Yes it is. I think it also has a progression adjustment knob too,

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    But wrong, compadre. They did have damping. From the old Hi-5 all the way to the end of that dual crown line, they had this funky air damped system. It actually worked to some degree. To tune it you could actually either make the air grooves deeper or fill them in with JB Weld to change the damping...LOL!...unique. Isn't the one in the pic a Hi-5? I had one of those and RST recalled them and replaced it with this Delta model...basically the same. The Delta has 68mm space disc brake caliper mounts, and I even have the oddball Hayes mount on it. Ah...I love history. Check this pic. Is it orange enough for ya.
    I'm not that old!!!

    Nah, seriously. I don't remember those. My friend has one and that's how I know about them.

    That orange would look killer with some new age frames!!
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  34. #34
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    My AM-1's History

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerx40
    How old is the AM1? Have you checked the oil bath oil to see if it's nasty or the volume is inadequate?

    It's very possible to make the swap. In fact, the 2005 Z1's are 150mm HSCV's, so if you want to stay at 150mm then you could buy a cartridge from Zoke (for an arm and a leg).

    In terms of performance, IMHO, I think that you're making a lateral swap though, or even a downgrade. I've tried my buddy's Marathon XC versus my Marathon S (hscv) and I thought that my fork feels like his fork with one or two clicks of TST added (firmer than the DS setting).
    The fork is a 2005 that I bought in July. However, I sent the fork into Marzocchi due to some "clunking" I was getting on compression (apparently remedied by bleeding some air out of the TST cartridge). I also had them replace the hideous desert storm lowers with black ones, thus new seals and bushings. They also accidently gave me new uppers (which they didn't charge me for). I would assume that with all this new oil would have been put in, though I guess there's no guarantee.

    For the record, I run my air assist at about 30 psi. I've run a bit less, but the fork tends to dive more on steeper descents and small bump compliance doesn't seem much better. Do most Marzocchis need their oil changed after the initial 15-20 hours? Also any other tips?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Thunder
    For the record, I run my air assist at about 30 psi. I've run a bit less, but the fork tends to dive more on steeper descents and small bump compliance doesn't seem much better. Do most Marzocchis need their oil changed after the initial 15-20 hours? Also any other tips?
    Hiiii, 30 psi, how much do you weigh? Did you check the sag? I run about 10 to 15 max and I'm 160lbs with gear. I don't think you want to control the brake dive with more air, you want to control it with the TST knob adjustment if less brake dive is what you are looking for. Yes I would say ALL Marzocchis (and probably all forks period) need an oil change after initial 15-20hours.

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    the b.s. fork

    my fork clunks and rattles.what a waste of money I even got mine at cost! When I get my Pike the marz gets fixed and sold.
    What a waste of money it feels like whitebrother ul 90 clunk clunk clunk I thank it translate into no more forks with air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongstick
    my fork clunks and rattles.what a waste of money I even got mine at cost! When I get my Pike the marz gets fixed and sold.
    What a waste of money it feels like whitebrother ul 90 clunk clunk clunk I thank it translate into no more forks with air.
    pike has been the most reliable fork of the year. Hard to believe but it's true.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by spongstick
    my fork clunks and rattles.what a waste of money I even got mine at cost! When I get my Pike the marz gets fixed and sold.
    What a waste of money it feels like whitebrother ul 90 clunk clunk clunk I thank it translate into no more forks with air.
    You'd probably have air trapped inside the TST cartridge.

    Look at the TST Revealed thread. Renegade makes a description of how to purge the TST.

    Or ... you already have a customer if it's a 110-130 one...
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    TST has an orofice and the amount of compression damping is varied by the expansion of the bladder.
    Sorry, but that is not correct. The orifices in the compression valve assembly completely control the compression damping, the bladder is only a resevoir for the oil, period. I have had my compression valve completely disassembled, and have tweaked the innards, Jayem, I know you have not.
    I just recently put my hscv catridge back into my ZAM1 for a side by side comparison to the tst cartridge, without it's coil spring.
    ****

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    I have had my compression valve completely disassembled, and have tweaked the innards, Jayem, I know you have not.
    I want graphic proof of the facts!!! I know you had tweaked it for sure... I just wonder what you mods are and how they work. With all those nice machines around you... damn, it's another of my wet-daydreams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    I just recently put my hscv catridge back into my ZAM1 for a side by side comparison to the tst cartridge, without it's coil spring.
    Full report is expected by 9:00 next monday on my computer.
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  41. #41
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    My first "tweaking involved elongating the orifice in the inner brass piece so that there is some semblance of an opening past the a.m. setting. I got just that, and I got a few more dial positions of differeing settings [ I also made an insert that goes into the cap and a different detent pin that gives me 13 positions compared to the stock 5], but I
    m not entirely satisfied by the results. I don't believe that the "style" of the openings in the brass piece and the upper, outer part of the compression valve housing are condusive to a gradual, linear adjustment. My next step, should I decide to take it, will be to remake both the upper/outer part of the compression housing, and the inner brass piece so that the outer piece has multiple smaller orifeces, probably 6, and the inner brass piece will have a very fine external thread, so that turning an adjustment knob will slowly open up oil flow through the orifices. Whether I do this or not depends on how much I like or dislike the hscv re-insertion into my fork, and whether I get tired of it all and just buy an '06 fork with the RC2 damping instead.
    To reiterate my claim in my previous post. the bladder is just a resevoir; the orifices that open into it never change in size, the expansion of the bladder from oil flow is linear. The compression valve assembly does all the adjusting.
    ****

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    My first "tweaking involved elongating the orifice in the inner brass piece so that there is some semblance of an opening past the a.m. setting. I got just that, and I got a few more dial positions of differeing settings [ I also made an insert that goes into the cap and a different detent pin that gives me 13 positions compared to the stock 5], but I
    m not entirely satisfied by the results. I don't believe that the "style" of the openings in the brass piece and the upper, outer part of the compression valve housing are condusive to a gradual, linear adjustment. My next step, should I decide to take it, will be to remake both the upper/outer part of the compression housing, and the inner brass piece so that the outer piece has multiple smaller orifeces, probably 6, and the inner brass piece will have a very fine external thread, so that turning an adjustment knob will slowly open up oil flow through the orifices. Whether I do this or not depends on how much I like or dislike the hscv re-insertion into my fork, and whether I get tired of it all and just buy an '06 fork with the RC2 damping instead.
    To reiterate my claim in my previous post. the bladder is just a resevoir; the orifices that open into it never change in size, the expansion of the bladder from oil flow is linear. The compression valve assembly does all the adjusting.
    Cool. Let us know.

    I think the little success depends on the fact that the past the orifices, you still have the open wide the blow-off and that will feel like an on-off switch. What you need is a proportional style of opening (shims, a needle style check valve, or something alike) but the playing with the orifices sizes is a good start.

    _MK and I coincidentially think that the best way to go is playing with the spring controlling the blow-off and the blow-off washer itself, making it flexible (read: shims).

    Sincerely, I'd play with that instead of the orifices. You're on a good track though.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    I have had my compression valve completely disassembled, and have tweaked the innards, Jayem, I know you have not.
    Funny, cause last week I took it all apart when servicing my friends AM1.

    My assertation about the compression and the bladder was due to the effect of the bladder "expanding" under a fast hit, and "pinching off" the air-chamber. This is the effect that I was describing. Whether or not it happens in your fork might depend on some variables, my cartridge sucked some air in at some point, and it was basically doing it all the time, which resulted in a harsher ride and some "non linear" compression, but on the other hand it's easy to underfill the cartridge if you're not using the o-ring thing (I use a rubber band).

    Good luck trying to replicate an HSCV valve by drilling more holes, I don't think you'll replicate the "spring" factor of the shims.
    Last edited by Jayem; 11-24-2005 at 07:55 PM.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Funny, cause last week I took it all apart when servicing my friends AM1.
    He refers to actually "hot-rod" the thing.....
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    My assertation about the compression and the bladder was due to the effect of the bladder "expanding" under a fast hit, and "pinching off" the air-chamber.
    the bladder has no role other than separating "damping oil" from "lubricating oil".

    the air pressure which builds during compression, acts on the oil (bladder or not) and exert a force on the rod area, which sums to the spring rate. It's the same in HSCV.
    Last edited by ClaudeFr; 11-25-2005 at 06:35 AM.

  46. #46
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    Weight

    I'm about 210 with gear. I use to run no air assist in my Z-1, so my first inclination with this fork was to run as little as I could get away with. Problem is that even though there is some hesitation for initial compression (i.e. not the best small bump compliance), the fork then quickly dives on steeper stuff if the air is lowish. Anyway, I'll try changing the oil pretty soon, as I'm probably past the 15 to 20 hour mark.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Thunder
    I'm about 210 with gear. I use to run no air assist in my Z-1, so my first inclination with this fork was to run as little as I could get away with. Problem is that even though there is some hesitation for initial compression (i.e. not the best small bump compliance), the fork then quickly dives on steeper stuff if the air is lowish. Anyway, I'll try changing the oil pretty soon, as I'm probably past the 15 to 20 hour mark.
    If your fork doesn't have 20 hours on it, yet, or is close to it, then you have to factor in stiction on the air/oil seals and the bushings. It can take a long time to fully brake in a Marzocchi. I am suspecting that you had a really high oil volume on the Z1, as I was 165lbs this summer and rode a 2004 Z1 with stock springs and zero air assist and the fork felt super plush. My oil levers were on a low side, so that I could use full travel. If they were high, the fork would ramp up quickly at the end of the stroke. So you would have a super soft fork on the small stuff, yet you wouldn't necessarily bottom it out. Now on your AM1 you don't have that undersprung fork in the beginning of the travel.

    Were you getting proper sag on the Z1? Sounds odd that at 210 you had 0 preload, being nearly 50lbs heavier. At any rate, a properly setup AM1 ought to be as smooth over the small stuff as forks get.

    _MK

    "The things you get fired for when you’re young are the same things you get Lifetime Achievements for when you’re old."

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Good luck trying to replicate an HSCV valve by drilling more holes, I don't think you'll replicate the "spring" factor of the shims.
    I'm not just "drilling more holes"; reread my post. I will be remaking, from scratch, the inner brass piece and the upper/outer compression valve housing in an attempt to create a more linear and predictable variation in compression damping, which, in my opinion, can't be achieved from simply modifying the existin pieces, which was what I did in my first attempt.
    HSCV, or traditional shim damping, may very well still be the best performing damping system going, despite the attempts of suspension company's to create the next best thing.
    ****

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudeFr
    the bladder has no role other than separating "damping oil" from "lubricating oil".

    the air pressure which builds during compression, acts on the oil (bladder or not) and exert a force on the rod area, which sums to the spring rate. It's the same in HSCV.
    The google search I did for bladder mx forks did explain the bladders role as to increase spring rate with a large hit, instead of increasing damping to stop bottoming. Given the smaller area of the TST piston reletive to the larger area of the slider, the pressure in the
    TST cart. will rise past the pressure in the fork leg, pushing oil into the bladder. The bladder expands, sealing off the top of the air chamber. If the bladder never expands, why has there been TST bladders poping? Or pooping. I think of it as a ssv system with the bladder taking the spiked oil pressure. Probably not a popular thought

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