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  1. #1
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    Fewer spacers, more pressure all better

    Right now I'm running a Fox 34 150mm Fit4 on a slack/agro hardtail and have been messing around with pressures and spacers and here's what I've come up with:

    I started using 2 volume spacers (what it came with) and running around 60psi of pressure. This was kind of per "normal setup" guidelines with ~20% sag and spacers to prevent bottoming out. With this setup it had excellent small bump compliance but seemed to wallow around in the mid stroke and was so soft that weight transfer was extremely exaggerated and I didn't have much confidence.

    What I've moved to is 1 spacer, 70-75psi at ~10-15% sag. Right now I'm not using the last 20mm or so of travel so I may remove the last spacer and see how it goes. This setup seems much more supportive throughout travel and doesn't have that rocking horse feel that the old setup did. I do seem to use travel when needed though. Feels very playful with the higher pressure and one less click of rebound damping.

    Am I doing something wrong here? This seems to be contrary to traditional shock setup advice? Is there some adjustment that would give me better results than this and am I just using pressure to make up for a critical adjustment that I'm not doing?

  2. #2
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    Nope, not doing anything wrong.

    The obsession with tiny bump compliance makes for what you're describing, and I don't like it either. You need air volume to have support.

    I would drop your pressure a little bit instead of removing the spacer, if only for the sake of comparison. If you dont like it, at least you know what it feels like.

  3. #3
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    Cool thanks! I was worried that what I needed was more low speed compression but that's good to know. Coming from the moto world, they always recommend a linear rate spring as much as possible and it sounds like that is what guys in the DH world are doing.

    Makes no sense to me why companies are building rear shocks with things like the Evol chamber or the Debonair chamber to add volume then just stuffing them full of spacers.

  4. #4
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    I've been slowly moving toward riding more pressure, fewer spacers on all my bikes. I ride really hard and had always been told that more spacers are what I need for the bike to feel good, but it makes it hard to use full travel effectively, and often leads to blowing through the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the travel before hitting a wall of spring ramp.

    You're on the right track...there's a reason that manufacturers are making these large volume air springs, and artificially shrinking them with spacers is a misconceived band-aid for getting your damper set correctly IMO.

  5. #5
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    To be the dark horse here: I would tell you to run two spacers and 5 psi more air up to 65psi mayyyybe up to 67psi. That should give you greater small bump compliance and have a nice ramp-up at the end of your travel. Just my 2 cents though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialWarr View Post
    To be the dark horse here: I would tell you to run two spacers and 5 psi more air up to 65psi mayyyybe up to 67psi. That should give you greater small bump compliance and have a nice ramp-up at the end of your travel. Just my 2 cents though!
    Why tho? But seriously, like I said, when I lower pressure the fork sits down in the mid-travel and doesn't have the support I'm looking for. It may just be a hardtail thing where I want the fork to sit up more so that it doesn't steepen the HTA when just riding around with a bunch of sag.

    On another note I did notice that I'm bottoming on more aggressive trails so I might throw a spacer in but first I think I'll try another 5 psi and see how that works before dropping back to 70 and trying a spacer.

  7. #7
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    I also prefer to setup my suspension with fewer spacers and more pressure. I really don't like the feeling of blowing through the midstroke, which seems to happen when I put in more spacers/lower the pressure. I'm a big fan of low tire pressure (with cushcore) to handle the small bump duties.

  8. #8
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    I've been taking my suspension in this direction as well. Much prefer the support. I also now find I prefer the faster end of the rebound settings and then crank in quite a lot of LSC.

    IME this irons out serious bumps at serious speed and still takes the big hits.

    If I venture towards slower rebound, there's a definite point where it gets super obviously harsh, indicative of packing. I'm happy that the rebound is getting set where it needs to be. LSC doesn't result in harshness so much as a "deadness/liveliness" control which is super cool for getting the bike to match the trail conditions. (2016 Lyrik / Vivid Air combo). More (slower) LSC means the bike doesn't punch as deep into its travel and then rebound with as much energy; on hits and lips it is deader feeling. Less LSC for the opposite.

    As I've tuned this in I've also been able to increase my tyre pressures without getting rattled to pieces.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    I've been taking my suspension in this direction as well. Much prefer the support. I also now find I prefer the faster end of the rebound settings and then crank in quite a lot of LSC.
    That is one control I wish I had. Mine is just the Fox 3 position but it rides very nice in the "trail" mode which shuts down some LSC. The bike is noticably more poppy on jumps with more low speed comp damping and feels a bit more composed in faster rhythm/flow sections though on the big hits I'll take less low speed damping. Definitely an interesting piece to this puzzle.

    Seems like this setup with more spring rate/less rebound damping/more LSC damping is for guys at the faster end of the spectrum. I was on a slower cross country ride yesterday and the bike definitely gives up some comfort over roots and rocks with more pressure but when the going gets fast and jumpy it pays off big time.

  10. #10
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    Interesting Iíve been heading in this direction also; glad to hear others with experience describing it.

  11. #11
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    The physics of this makes sense.

  12. #12
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    I had 2 tokens in my 2018 fox 36 160mm. I went back to 1 token and bumped up the pressure 5-7 psi. I m liking the extra support and the way it rides higher. I think longer travel forks can get away with less tokens.

  13. #13
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    Of course, dump spacers.

    Everyone is clamoring how coil forks are "better" and "give more mid stroke support" but then ride air forks and shocks with loads of spacers.

    Air is inherently far more progressive than coil and I see no reason you'd run less pressure and more spacers. If there's small bump or stiction issue, it's not problem with too much pressure. I actually found that running more pressure gives smoother suspension action and more compliance. Since there's automatically balancing negative air spring, the pressure difference for small bumps doesn't make much difference, but more support in the middle of travel is far more noticable and gives you better performing suspension and doesn't ramp up by the end.

    When riding agressively and going from 10 to 80 percent of travel, the high pressure fork without spacers is going to feel far better as there won't be any spiking unlike fork with low pressure and bucket load of spacers in it.

  14. #14
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    this is exactly why forks are coming with larger negative air springs, you can runner higher pressures and keep sag/small bump compliance the same.

  15. #15
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    Hopefully the trend is going away from cost-saving self equalizing negative springs and back to individually adjustable pos/neg springs like the MRP Ribbon.
    RS used to have this.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    Hopefully the trend is going away from cost-saving self equalizing negative springs and back to individually adjustable pos/neg springs like the MRP Ribbon.
    RS used to have this.
    That would definitely be interesting. So you can just run a higher negative air pressure to increase small bump compliance then?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUGlife View Post
    That would definitely be interesting. So you can just run a higher negative air pressure to increase small bump compliance then?
    Yes.

    On top of that I'd put my neck out and say most of the 'stiction' talk is actually due to improperly balanced air springs. The 'stiction' is actually just the break-away force needed to get the fork moving.
    When the air springs are balanced on the Ribbon there is absolutely no 'stiction'. It takes a light pressure with my pinky finger to move it slightly. When I drop the front of the bike it doesn't bounce on the tires, it just goes 'thud' and stops. That's how it should be.
    Last edited by C-H; 07-24-2018 at 09:31 PM.

  18. #18
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    The problem with adjustable negative springs is that the majority of people have no idea what to do with them, so most people end up with a dramatically better ride with a soloair or self balancing spring. Just look how much chatter we have about burping lowers and associated issues with that, now factor in two air springs that you need to adjust when you burp lowers. Thats too much for the average consumer.

    Im not disagreeing that it was a better system, but I totally understand why its gone.

    A significant portion of riders cant properly set a single air spring and just ride what whatever the shop stuffs in there.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    The problem with adjustable negative springs is that the majority of people have no idea what to do with them, so most people end up with a dramatically better ride with a soloair or self balancing spring. Just look how much chatter we have about burping lowers and associated issues with that, now factor in two air springs that you need to adjust when you burp lowers. Thats too much for the average consumer.

    Im not disagreeing that it was a better system, but I totally understand why its gone.

    A significant portion of riders cant properly set a single air spring and just ride what whatever the shop stuffs in there.
    I know and you are right about people not knowing what they are doing.
    I just hope manufacturers get back to offering it as an option or variant.
    The Single-Air setup will continue to feed the aftermarket upgrade path like Luftkappe until they get the stock setup right. If RS (on the Pike for example) moved the equalization port to be a bit further into the travel the negative spring would have a bit higher pressure and the fork would be so much better.

    The 'burping' of forks is somewhat slightly different but related. This was never even an issue back in the day. My old Manitou Black doesn't suffer from it since the connection of the air-rod and damper legs to the lowers were never dust proof (air tight) to start with. On the Pike (yes again) the tight seal really is a problem because the second positive air spring created in the lowers really screw up the performance. It really is a problem.
    MRP did the right thing again and added valves.

    Edit: It really isn't difficult to setup an dual air spring. Just pump up the pos and then add air in the neg until the fork starts to suck down. Done. The springs are balanced.

  20. #20
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    Adjustable negative spring pressure is not the end all be all either. The fact that the negative chambers have been getting larger in proportion to positive has been the big win.

    Would rather have a solo air type system with luftkappe adjusted ratios than a adjustable negative chamber that's still small like the old dual air forks any day.

    Manitou IRT system is also killing it, would like to see other mfg take note.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

  21. #21
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    How does the IRT system work?

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    Adjusting negative pressure, which is really adjusting the negative spring volume, is possible on forks without the dimple in the stanchion like the '15-17 Fox with the MRP kit. However you are going to reduce travel unless you get creative with air shaft lengths and transfer shaft positions.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by yemff View Post
    Adjusting negative pressure, which is really adjusting the negative spring volume, is possible on forks without the dimple in the stanchion like the '15-17 Fox with the MRP kit. However you are going to reduce travel unless you get creative with air shaft lengths and transfer shaft positions.
    The upper limit for negative air pressure in a fork is positive air pressure plus a few percent for the difference in shaft area.
    It's not a magic wand for tuning.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The upper limit for negative air pressure in a fork is positive air pressure plus a few percent for the difference in shaft area.
    It's not a magic wand for tuning.
    True, but it's a damn good start LOL.

  26. #26
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    Isn't increasing negative pressure essentially the same as increasing negative chamber volume? Obviously, if you were to graph pressure and travel, there would be some difference...but would it really have any effect on small bump?

    Pos/neg are normally equal at full extension...if you make the negative higher at full extension...isn't the fork just going to compress a little bit, decreasing positive and increasing negative until it's back at equilibrium?

  27. #27
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    No it's not the same.

    Pressure is force per area unit and since the piston area on the negative spring side is smaller than on the positive due to the shaft, the pressure needs to be slightly higher on the negative side to give the same force. If the forces are the same on both sides the spring is balanced.

    With just equal pressure it's not a balanced system and the initial suppleness will suffer. You'll need a bit of break-away force to push the fork down (some call this 'stiction').

    A tiny bit too much neg pressure will make the fork start to suck down into the travel. I'd say 2-3mm is no big deal.

  28. #28
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    Somewhat off topic, I have a 140mm 2016 34 Performance FIT4 that was recently upgraded by Fox to 2019 spec on both legs, including the 22 pos. Compression. I have been playing with pressure and CD and right now I'm at 5 from least on CD and 65 lbs. no spacers. Low bump performance in Middle and Open mode is excellent, but way too much bob in climbing in Middle and only 4 ish inches of travel in Open... It feels wallowy and a little scary on descending in Open and I really want to raise air pressure which should improve bob in Middle while climbing, and confidence when descending, but it'll also only reduce my travel which is already only 75% of advertised travel.

    I'm a little confused. It seems as though if I get the fork to use all available travel in Open, it feels soft and wallowy, which could be mitigated with more CD, but it doesn't solve the fact that I sink over 25% into the travel with sag..... BUT Middle mode is virtually unusable for climbing with far too much bob. It's like Middle Mode and Open Mode are valved far too close too be useful.

    My guess is that I have way too much high speed CD for my riding style which is killing travel in Open....

    Do I need a custom tune? Any thoughts?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob300 View Post
    Somewhat off topic, I have a 140mm 2016 34 Performance FIT4 that was recently upgraded by Fox to 2019 spec on both legs, including the 22 pos. Compression. I have been playing with pressure and CD and right now I'm at 5 from least on CD and 65 lbs. no spacers. Low bump performance in Middle and Open mode is excellent, but way too much bob in climbing in Middle and only 4 ish inches of travel in Open... It feels wallowy and a little scary on descending in Open and I really want to raise air pressure which should improve bob in Middle while climbing, and confidence when descending, but it'll also only reduce my travel which is already only 75% of advertised travel.

    I'm a little confused. It seems as though if I get the fork to use all available travel in Open, it feels soft and wallowy, which could be mitigated with more CD, but it doesn't solve the fact that I sink over 25% into the travel with sag..... BUT Middle mode is virtually unusable for climbing with far too much bob. It's like Middle Mode and Open Mode are valved far too close too be useful.

    My guess is that I have way too much high speed CD for my riding style which is killing travel in Open....

    Do I need a custom tune? Any thoughts?
    You are practically the poster child for "add a spacer, remove 5 psi"

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob300 View Post
    Somewhat off topic, I have a 140mm 2016 34 Performance FIT4 that was recently upgraded by Fox to 2019 spec on both legs, including the 22 pos. Compression. I have been playing with pressure and CD and right now I'm at 5 from least on CD and 65 lbs. no spacers. Low bump performance in Middle and Open mode is excellent, but way too much bob in climbing in Middle and only 4 ish inches of travel in Open... It feels wallowy and a little scary on descending in Open and I really want to raise air pressure which should improve bob in Middle while climbing, and confidence when descending, but it'll also only reduce my travel which is already only 75% of advertised travel.

    I'm a little confused. It seems as though if I get the fork to use all available travel in Open, it feels soft and wallowy, which could be mitigated with more CD, but it doesn't solve the fact that I sink over 25% into the travel with sag..... BUT Middle mode is virtually unusable for climbing with far too much bob. It's like Middle Mode and Open Mode are valved far too close too be useful.

    My guess is that I have way too much high speed CD for my riding style which is killing travel in Open....

    Do I need a custom tune? Any thoughts?
    It sounds like You have too much high speed compression damping and not enough low. This is causing both your wallow and stopping you getting full travel.
    But very few fox forks have much compression damping. So we'd need to check this.

    Dial in a few clicks more rebound to check the wallowing or work through this guide: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...spension-setup
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    You are practically the poster child for "add a spacer, remove 5 psi"
    He's already not getting full travel, more spacers would make that worse.

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    delete

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by phuchmileif View Post
    Isn't increasing negative pressure essentially the same as increasing negative chamber volume? Obviously, if you were to graph pressure and travel, there would be some difference...but would it really have any effect on small bump?


    Pos/neg are normally equal at full extension...if you make the negative higher at full extension...isn't the fork just going to compress a little bit, decreasing positive and increasing negative until it's back at equilibrium?
    the forces from the positive and negative springs will always balance. Having a negative air spring is beneficial because there is some force opposing the positive air spring; Since the negative spring volume is smaller than the positive, this negative spring force is only significant though the beginning of the travel, which equates to small bump sensitivity.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    The upper limit for negative air pressure in a fork is positive air pressure plus a few percent for the difference in shaft area.
    It's not a magic wand for tuning.
    and if you go above this "limit" you are going to increase negative spring volume and decrease positive spring volume and reduce travel unless you make other adjustments to the air spring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob300 View Post
    My guess is that I have way too much high speed CD for my riding style which is killing travel in Open....

    Do I need a custom tune? Any thoughts?
    Kind of sounds like not enough low speed compression damping. If its wallowing around when descending then I would naturally add a few psi and some CD. As I understand it, the compression damping dial is only low speed damping, not high speed as that is taken care of in the shim stack, not the adjustable bypass that the 22 pos adjuster controls. And remember that the adjuster only controls damping in the open mode.

    Strange that you're only getting 4 inches of travel. I initially was seeing the same thing with my setup but after riding some trails that were a little more techy and rough (and that I wasn't as familiar with) I found I was actually bottoming out quite a bit.

    Make sure to run a few different trails, especially ones that you don't normally ride. If you know the trail extremely well then you are probably setting up for jumps and just riding very smooth. Once you hit a trail that you don't know so well you may just see that you are using much more travel.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yemff View Post
    the forces from the positive and negative springs will always balance. Having a negative air spring is beneficial because there is some force opposing the positive air spring; Since the negative spring volume is smaller than the positive, this negative spring force is only significant though the beginning of the travel, which equates to small bump sensitivity.
    No, they will not always balance. If the pressure is equal they are in fact not balancced (see my earlier post) but it is true that the effect of the negative spring gets smaller and smaller further into the travel.... but that just how it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    No, they will not always balance. If the pressure is equal they are in fact not balancced (see my earlier post) but it is true that the effect of the negative spring gets smaller and smaller further into the travel.... but that just how it works.
    I said the forces balance, pressures will be slightly different.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by yemff View Post
    I said the forces balance, pressures will be slightly different.
    ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by yemff View Post
    and if you go above this "limit" you are going to increase negative spring volume and decrease positive spring volume and reduce travel unless you make other adjustments to the air spring.
    Yeah, pistons move until forces again are in balance.

    Which means your forks height and travel reduces.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Yeah, pistons move until forces again are in balance.

    Which means your forks height and travel reduces.

    Here is where my complaint against the RS Pike comes in. The equalization port is just at top-out so the negative chamber just gets the equal pressure as the pos cahmber which leads to an underinflated neg chamber with bad suppleness as a resukt. If they put the equalization notches a bit further into the travel the neg chamber would get a slightly higher pressure and the fork would feel much better.


    So my initial point why I like the Dual-Air system is hopefully clear now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-H View Post
    Here is where my complaint against the RS Pike comes in. The equalization port is just at top-out so the negative chamber just gets the equal pressure as the pos cahmber which leads to an underinflated neg chamber with bad suppleness as a resukt. If they put the equalization notches a bit further into the travel the neg chamber would get a slightly higher pressure and the fork would feel much better.


    So my initial point why I like the Dual-Air system is hopefully clear now.
    They would also be harder to get stuck-down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    It sounds like You have too much high speed compression damping and not enough low. This is causing both your wallow and stopping you getting full travel.
    But very few fox forks have much compression damping. So we'd need to check this.

    Dial in a few clicks more rebound to check the wallowing or work through this guide: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technic...spension-setup
    I would agree. Usually when I can't get full travel, or feel a stiff, non-compliant suspension and I've changed spring rate, this is where I end up. I personally have found that most people prefer FAR more CD, especially HSCD than I do. I agree.... the LSCD is probably too low. I reduced that hoping to get some travel, but there is little interaction between HS and LS CD except oil weight. I'm tempted to reduce oil weight, but this will reduce RD which is already near maxxed out. Hence my question about custom tune. I'm guessing I need a stack change that changes the ratio between HSCD and RD and then tune with oil weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUGlife View Post
    Kind of sounds like not enough low speed compression damping. If its wallowing around when descending then I would naturally add a few psi and some CD. As I understand it, the compression damping dial is only low speed damping, not high speed as that is taken care of in the shim stack, not the adjustable bypass that the 22 pos adjuster controls. And remember that the adjuster only controls damping in the open mode.

    Strange that you're only getting 4 inches of travel. I initially was seeing the same thing with my setup but after riding some trails that were a little more techy and rough (and that I wasn't as familiar with) I found I was actually bottoming out quite a bit.

    Make sure to run a few different trails, especially ones that you don't normally ride. If you know the trail extremely well then you are probably setting up for jumps and just riding very smooth. Once you hit a trail that you don't know so well you may just see that you are using much more travel.
    I agree with everything yu've said here with one addition... I believe the base HSCD is too high, which limits travel and gives a harsh feeling even over small rocks, even though air pressure is very low and LSCD is full off. Other than that, I think as you've said increased pressure and LSCD will help a lot in confidence descending and will certainly not hurt climbing. As I said in my other reply, I'm leaning toward a custom stack with less HSCD. Oil weight alone won't help as my RD is nearly maxxed out.

    I don't ride a lot of new places. I tend to frequent the same trails.... so unless things go sideways, you're probably right, the smoothness of my technique is most likely mitigating a lot of the big hits. But some great thoughts. Thank you.

    I thought the same thing about the 22 pos dial only affecting Open, but Ed Breslau at Fox said there is an effect, but it is greatly reduced in Middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob300 View Post
    I thought the same thing about the 22 pos dial only affecting Open, but Ed Breslau at Fox said there is an effect, but it is greatly reduced in Middle.
    That's interesting. I was thinking about having them install the 22 pos dial this winter when I send my fork in for rebuild but then I heard it only does the open mode and I spend a fair bit of time in the middle position. That's really good to know.

  45. #45
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    I completely changed my setup today. 70 lbs in the fork, no spacers, with about 10 clicks of CD, and RD 1 click from full. WAY better climbing in Medium and descending in Medium or Open. Only getting just under 4" of travel, but I am the antithesis of Aaron Guinn and the trails I ride are mostly glacial moraine at their worst. I don't do jumps, 3 foot drops or G Outs, so I guess I'd rather take quality of travel over quantity.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob300 View Post
    so I guess I'd rather take quality of travel over quantity.
    i'm battling with this right now. Different style of riding, aggressive chunk, with some natural drops and hucks into rough terrain. Aggressive, but not big air, if that makes sense.

    Was running stock 2018 FOX 36 with one spacer and 85PSI. X2 with 235PSI and 1 spacer. Went and got a few spacers to add. Was thinking I could lower pressure a bit and get a more compliant ride, while still keeping good mid travel support. I hate fork dive.

    Was all excited to install spacers and feel the magic; untill someone had to tell me spacers will decrease my mid travel support

    So, I ripped all my spacers out and upped the spring PSI to 90 and 240 respectively. Still haven't tried it on the trail. My hope is that I'll stay high in the travel over the chunk and sink on the drops. My fear, is I'll rattle my teeth out with the increase in pressure.

  47. #47
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    You gotta let your damper do some work. Is this a grip2 fork?

    Fork dive needs to be handled by LSC. Using the spring for that ends up working either poorly, or insanely harshly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    He's already not getting full travel, more spacers would make that worse.
    Not with less pressure. If he's not getting full travel and it blows through what it does use, he needs it to be more progressive.

    I have read many threads on here where people are trying to get their fork to ride higher in its travel, and they make interesting arguments. In fact, this whole thread is fascinating to me, but for me, making the fork more progressive made improvements everywhere. It's softer on small bumps and supportive on big ones, just like it should be. And my compression dampers stay open 100% of the time. I even opened the low speed up all the way and I haven't noticed any bobbing at all.

  49. #49
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    If you want really good midstroke support go coil. The lack of progresssion is why there's no big dip in curve like you get in an air shock when you add a bunch of volume spacers. Otherwise, run as few spacers as possible for better midstroke support. The solution to the brake dive depends on if your spring rate is good, if so the add LSC to the fork or slow down LSR on the shock.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    Not with less pressure. If he's not getting full travel and it blows through what it does use, he needs it to be more progressive.

    I have read many threads on here where people are trying to get their fork to ride higher in its travel, and they make interesting arguments. In fact, this whole thread is fascinating to me, but for me, making the fork more progressive made improvements everywhere. It's softer on small bumps and supportive on big ones, just like it should be. And my compression dampers stay open 100% of the time. I even opened the low speed up all the way and I haven't noticed any bobbing at all.
    Running your damper wide open is a red flag that something is set wrong or otherwise not keeping up...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    If you want really good midstroke support go coil. The lack of progresssion is why there's no big dip in curve like you get in an air shock when you add a bunch of volume spacers. Otherwise, run as few spacers as possible for better midstroke support. The solution to the brake dive depends on if your spring rate is good, if so the add LSC to the fork or slow down LSR on the shock.
    Unfortunately I'm too heavy for coil...bottom out too easy. Had a Vanilla once..never again.

    Think I settled on going back to, stock, one spacer. This was the best compromise between support and grip. It's a RC2 so I have the LSC adjustment. Too much of that can harshen things up too. Definitely see now, that too many spacers will mess it up.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Running your damper wide open is a red flag that something is set wrong or otherwise not keeping up...
    Or that the valving is just fine the way it is.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    Or that the valving is just fine the way it is.
    Nope. That's not what running wide open means.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nope. That's not what running wide open means.
    Dougal,
    What does it imply (running compression full open on my grip damper....).
    Oren


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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Nope. That's not what running wide open means.
    Nothing wrong with demonstrating in a single sentence that you have no idea what you're talking about. Good luck, sir.

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    Just for arguments sake,

    If you find yourself at the end of an adjustment range, that doesn't mean where you're at is the optimal possible damping. If you are full soft, you could possibly use "more soft" still, beyond the useable adjustment range.

    Just my $0.02 on more vs. less volume spacers. I think there is probably an optimal progression amount that will require different balances of damping vs air spring for different setups. Some forks aren't progressive enough and others are too progressive. This will also depend on the travel setting of the fork. Run a fork at a lower travel setting and it will be less progressive then it would be at the full travel setting.

    Blanket statements like "more tokens is better" isn't relevant as every setup is different.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Dougal,
    What does it imply (running compression full open on my grip damper....).
    Oren


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    That the tune is possibly too firm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    That the tune is possibly too firm.
    Thanks.
    And... weird? I am over 90kg r2r on a 120mm fox grip fork. Implies damping is far too stiff for most users?

    Oren

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Thanks.
    And... weird? I am over 90kg r2r on a 120mm fox grip fork. Implies damping is far too stiff for most users?

    Oren
    To be blunt it's also possible that it just isn't set up well. I've never thought the grip damper forks I've ridden were too stiff. What forks have you ridden that weren't too stiff?

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    Fewer spacers, more pressure all better

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    To be blunt it's also possible that it just isn't set up well. I've never thought the grip damper forks I've ridden were too stiff. What forks have you ridden that weren't too stiff?
    Fox 32ctd fit kash that was quite nice, used in trail (mid) setting plus some added compression. Quite ok, and open was too soft.
    Manitou minute 26...
    Oren

    Oh, and another thing. Itís not too stiff as in not complaint or such. It just works fine in open, has good support and does not give its travel too easily.
    Just fine in open mode...



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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Dougal,
    What does it imply (running compression full open on my grip damper....).
    Oren


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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenPerets View Post
    Thanks.
    And... weird? I am over 90kg r2r on a 120mm fox grip fork. Implies damping is far too stiff for most users?

    Oren
    Yes. But it might not just be damping. It's likely a combination of damping and friction. Fox bushings used to be loose, now they're pretty tight.

    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    Nothing wrong with demonstrating in a single sentence that you have no idea what you're talking about. Good luck, sir.
    Do tell us about the benefits of running a bypass wide open to get no low speed damping and too much high?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Do tell us about the benefits of running a bypass wide open to get no low speed damping and too much high?
    We are not talking about "no" low speed damping. Less compression damping means more displacement for the same hit in the same amount of time. The goal of suspension is to maximize traction and reduce losses of forward speed. Because this is a dynamic process, we can't expect to use 100% of our travel on every bump. Rebound is always going to be slower than compression. But every part of the hit that isn't absorbed by the suspension is going to send us upward, which means our pedaling energy is used to push us back toward the earth instead of forward.

    Think of a drag car. Which is faster, a car that pulls a 3' wheelie every time it launches or one that lifts the front but goes generally straight? Obviously the latter. Every bit of energy that is wasted going upward instead of down the trail slows us down.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    We are not talking about "no" low speed damping. Less compression damping means more displacement for the same hit in the same amount of time. The goal of suspension is to maximize traction and reduce losses of forward speed. Because this is a dynamic process, we can't expect to use 100% of our travel on every bump. Rebound is always going to be slower than compression. But every part of the hit that isn't absorbed by the suspension is going to send us upward, which means our pedaling energy is used to push us back toward the earth instead of forward.

    Think of a drag car. Which is faster, a car that pulls a 3' wheelie every time it launches or one that lifts the front but goes generally straight? Obviously the latter. Every bit of energy that is wasted going upward instead of down the trail slows us down.
    I was hoping for a coherent discussion on low speed damping bypass. The above isn't.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

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