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  1. #1
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    Enduro Seals

    Just installed my 2nd set of Enduro seals after the 1st set leaked. I noticed that the new set included the blue outter wipers, inner rubber seals, and foam rings. My 1st set was missing the foam rings. Are the foam rings new or was my first set missing them?
    I seem to remember the inner rubber seals replacing the Fox foam rings on my 1st set.

  2. #2
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    Who knows? The fox system isn't the greatest in the world, whether it's done by enduro or fox themselves. The enduro stuff is an improvement, but the fox forks require a seal that goes into the top of the fork and the oil seal and dust seal are combined. The seals are held in by compressive force, but nowhere near as solid as the system marzocchi or a few others use where there's a seperate double lipped oil seal down below the dust seal, held in by a c-clip. Under extreme pressure this seal will basically seal "better", and it will outperform the system that fox uses. For this reason, you're never really going to have a perfect solution for the fox forks, and you might see changes from time to time until fox goes to a system like the other manufacturers use. The enduro seals are the best solution that exists currently.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    PUSH is putting dual lip seals in all their rebuilds now. I havnt seen them yet so I'm not sure if they are the same as the Marz seals. Rumor has it that these PUSH seals are Rock Shox seals. In another post Darren talked about these seals.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by be350ka
    PUSH is putting dual lip seals in all their rebuilds now. I havnt seen them yet so I'm not sure if they are the same as the Marz seals. Rumor has it that these PUSH seals are Rock Shox seals. In another post Darren talked about these seals.
    That's not the point. The point is that other manufacturers have a seperate oil seal that's held in by a c-clip or snap-ring, and the harder that the oil presses against the seal, the harder the seal presses against the leg. The fox doesn't really have this, nor is it possible to retrofit. That's the real issue.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikenut316
    I noticed that the new set included the blue outter wipers, inner rubber seals, and foam rings. My 1st set was missing the foam rings. Are the foam rings new or was my first set missing them?
    I seem to remember the inner rubber seals replacing the Fox foam rings on my 1st set.
    According to Chris, the new seal sets have slightly shorter inner seals to make room for the foam rings. The older seals didn't come with foam rings, and you're correct in your recollection: the inner seals did indeed replace the foam rings.

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    The point is that other manufacturers have a seperate oil seal that's held in by a c-clip or snap-ring, and the harder that the oil presses against the seal, the harder the seal presses against the leg. The fox doesn't really have this, nor is it possible to retrofit. That's the real issue.
    Jayem, the fork seals and wipers that we now install into the Fox forks accomplish this. It requires a re-machining of the lower leg assembly which is done at our facility.

    Darren

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    That's not the point. The point is that other manufacturers have a seperate oil seal that's held in by a c-clip or snap-ring, and the harder that the oil presses against the seal, the harder the seal presses against the leg. The fox doesn't really have this, nor is it possible to retrofit. That's the real issue.
    Fox has always said they won't hinder performance (ie add more stiction) to get longer lasting seals. You will always have some oil leaking with a Fox but the tade off is smoother performance you just have to service them more often. I have never seen a fork particularly an air fork that comes close to the stiction free performance of a Fox. To me that is more important than perfct seals that don't weep or leak oil but everone has their own priorities. You cant have it both ways tighter seals = more stiction and no stiction = weaker seals.

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    Fox has always said they won't hinder performance (ie add more stiction) to get longer lasting seals. You will always have some oil leaking with a Fox but the tade off is smoother performance you just have to service them more often. I have never seen a fork particularly an air fork that comes close to the stiction free performance of a Fox. To me that is more important than perfct seals that don't weep or leak oil but everone has their own priorities. You cant have it both ways tighter seals = more stiction and no stiction = weaker seals.
    Johnny, you can have it both ways as our new system proves. Again, it does require a bit of a process, but after a year and a half of development we've produced a seal and wiper package that yeilds the same seal drag numbers as the stock Fox seals, but without weeping or leakage.

    Darrren

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Jayem, the fork seals and wipers that we now install into the Fox forks accomplish this. It requires a re-machining of the lower leg assembly which is done at our facility.

    Darren
    Wow, that's a far better solution compared to enduro seals.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Hair Boy
    Fox has always said they won't hinder performance (ie add more stiction) to get longer lasting seals.
    Cute, but marzocchis been making stiction free forks since the bomber came out, and they haven't had a problem.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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    How do the drag numbers compare as the seals wear though? Do the original Fox seals get even less sticky after break-in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND
    Johnny, you can have it both ways as our new system proves. Again, it does require a bit of a process, but after a year and a half of development we've produced a seal and wiper package that yeilds the same seal drag numbers as the stock Fox seals, but without weeping or leakage.

    Darrren
    My fork was serviced by you guys this winter and is leaking alot of oil when did you start using this new system.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Cute, but marzocchis been making stiction free forks since the bomber came out, and they haven't had a problem.
    The early bombers leaked like a siv and the new ones (at least the air forks) have tones of stiction sorry.

  14. #14
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    PUSHIND

    Johnny, you can have it both ways as our new system proves. Again, it does require a bit of a process, but after a year and a half of development we've produced a seal and wiper package that yeilds the same seal drag numbers as the stock Fox seals, but without weeping or leakage.

    Darrren
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    The fox doesn't really have this, nor is it possible to retrofit. That's the real issue.

    Kinda like a retrofit, huh.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Wow, that's a far better solution compared to enduro seals.
    Jayem,
    That's an interesting conclusion. Have you considered the price of the re-machining vs. the price of our seal kit for the Fox? Our kit is for the do-it-yourselfer. It's $25.00 and it works great. To convert to the Push system is $200.00 (edit: see my next post for clarification) It darn well ought to be "better" for that kind of money. Our Fox Kit has hundreds of satisfied customers and you can't beat the price. PUSH's incredible fork tuning/tweaking skills are well known, but they are not cheap (nor should they be). We do not serve the same market. Re-machining the lowers to improve seal performance may not be the ideal solution for the average Joe. I don't think your comparison is valid. I think it's also fair to allow a little more time to pass before a system is considered proven.
    Last edited by Chris2fur; 07-15-2006 at 10:14 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris2fur
    Jayem,
    That's an interesting conclusion. Have you considered the price of the re-machining vs. the price of our seal kit for the Fox? Our kit is for the do-it-yourselfer. It's $25.00 and it works great. To convert to the Push system is $200.00 It darn well ought to be "better" for that kind of money. Our Fox Kit has hundreds of satisfied customers and you can't beat the price. PUSH's incredible fork tuning/tweaking skills are well known, but they are not cheap (nor should they be). We do not serve the same market. Re-machining the lowers to improve seal performance may not be the ideal solution for the average Joe. I don't think your comparison is valid. I think it's also fair to allow a little more time to pass before a system is considered proven.
    I didn't say it was a cheaper solution, besides most people will have a shop install those seals, so it easily becomes 50-60 bucks for a lot of people to change the seals, not including the cost of oil.

    You're also not being honest about the cost of the Push upgrade. It says $160 for the factory rebuild with the new seals and wipers installed in the newly machined lowers, along with bushing machining, a new o-ring kit, and fresh oil change.

    The factory tuning option is $215, which includes everything else and a new damping piston and custom valving.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by be350ka
    Kinda like a retrofit, huh.
    Yeah, it's something that is new.

    Factory Rebuild Includes:

    NEW! Precision machining of seal seats
    NEW! Dual Lip U-Cup Energized Seals
    NEW! Dual Lip Urethane U-Cup Energized Dirt Wipers
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I didn't say it was a cheaper solution, besides most people will have a shop install those seals, so it easily becomes 50-60 bucks for a lot of people to change the seals, not including the cost of oil.

    You're also not being honest about the cost of the Push upgrade. It says $160 for the factory rebuild with the new seals and wipers installed in the newly machined lowers, along with bushing machining, a new o-ring kit, and fresh oil change.

    The factory tuning option is $215, which includes everything else and a new damping piston and custom valving.
    Oops. $160.00 instead of $200.00. That changes everything? I'll edit my other post. A mistake is does not indicate a lack of honesty. It was an approximation based on the MBA article. OK, so, based on this info, if someone wants to convert to the PUSH seal system, it will cost them a minimum of $160.00. Sure, the price includes other services, but their system is not really a retrofit, because the lowers have to be machined in-house to install them. Our kit is a true retrofit, since it FITS in the existing forks. Again, this takes nothing away from PUSH, it's just that you are comparing apples and oranges.

  19. #19
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    Enduro works great

    I've had nothing but excellent performance after rebuilding my Fox F100X fork with Enduro seals/wipers.

    I did get the updated kit with the new foam rings. Did you follow the instructions closely, grease, lube, and seat all the parts as noted? In addition to the seal kit I also purchased their recommended Super Slick grease, stanchion lube and shock oils. Dunno, just followed the instructions and now have a F100X leak free and working better than before! Having never rebuilt a fork before makes me even more impressed by the kit and instructions.
    Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"

  20. #20
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    My fork was serviced by you guys this winter and is leaking alot of oil when did you start using this new system.
    We've been installing the new system in consumer forks for about 6 weeks or so now. Sounds like you've got an issue with your stock Fox seals so drop me an email with either your Sales Order number or the order name that it was sent in under so that we can get it handled.

    Darren
    [email protected]hindustries.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Hair Boy
    The early bombers leaked like a siv and the new ones (at least the air forks) have tones of stiction sorry.
    The new air Zokes I've owned are buttery smooth...after 15 or 20 hours of break-in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I didn't say it was a cheaper solution, besides most people will have a shop install those seals, so it easily becomes 50-60 bucks for a lot of people to change the seals, not including the cost of oil.

    You're also not being honest about the cost of the Push upgrade. It says $160 for the factory rebuild with the new seals and wipers installed in the newly machined lowers, along with bushing machining, a new o-ring kit, and fresh oil change.

    The factory tuning option is $215, which includes everything else and a new damping piston and custom valving.
    Most people will take their Enduro seals to a shop, and plunk down an extra $50 to $60? Did you just make that up? Enduro Seals take about 5 minutes to install...after you carefully read the instructions. Otherwise it's a 2 day job and 3 trips to the motorcycle shop for more oil and a call to Fox for more crush washers.
    All my Fox F100/80X buds have Enduro Seals in, and none of them took them to shops. They're all cheap bastard expert/semi-pro racers who would rather spend the 50 to 60 clams on beer and race gas money.
    For the record, I purchased 2 sets of Enduro Seals, installed them myself and promptly sold the Fox forks for new Rock Shox. I couldn't move the forks because everyone was concerned about the leaky stock seals. Once the Enduros were in.... forks sold like conjugal visit passes at Sing Sing Prison.
    Fox = marketing and hype (one and the same, apparently).

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin
    Most people will take their Enduro seals to a shop, and plunk down an extra $50 to $60? Did you just make that up? Enduro Seals take about 5 minutes to install...after you carefully read the instructions.
    lol..yeah, sure.

    No, the seals cost $25, labor another $25, then oil or whatever.

    The seals take 5 minutes for you to install. Sure. You can usually take off the lowers of such forks without changing the oil by having the fork upside down and being carefull, but while your working on the fork it makes a lot of sense to chainge the oil.

    I'm glad that your expert friends put the seals in themselves and work on their own bikes. The longer someone rides, the more and more they usually do most of their own maint and repairs. That isn't the rule though, that is more of the exception.

    For the record, I've installed a lot more than 2 sets of enduro seals for customers.
    Last edited by Jayem; 07-15-2006 at 10:17 PM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    lol..yeah, sure.

    No, the seals cost $25, labor another $25, then oil or whatever.

    The seals take 5 minutes for you to install. Sure. You can usually take off the lowers of such forks without changing the oil by having the fork upside down and being carefull, but while your working on the fork it makes a lot of sense to chainge the oil.

    I'm glad that your expert friends put the seals in themselves and work on their own bikes. The longer someone rides, the more and more they usually do most of their own maint and repairs. That isn't the rule though, that is more of the exception.

    For the record, I've installed a lot more than 2 sets of enduro seals for customers.
    Don't forget to add some $$$ to those who can't take their own fork off or install it back on their bike after PUSH sends it back. Bike shops charge, what, $35 to do that 3 minute job??

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by westin
    . Bike shops charge, what, $35 to do that 3 minute job??
    Yeah, especially when someone brings it in off the street and they need it done "now".
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  26. #26

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    Wouldn't machining force subsequent seal replacements to be sourced only from PUSH?

  27. #27
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    Wouldn't machining force subsequent seal replacements to be sourced only from PUSH?
    No, our machining of the seal gland doesn't affect the ability to re-install the OEM Fox seals if you wanted.

    Darren

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