Compression damper. Who doesn't bother with it....?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Compression damper. Who doesn't bother with it....?

    I have a 2018 RS Revelation that is my first air spring fork, also my first trail fork with compression damping.

    I run it wide open always and have tried it on smooth trails but don't see the point (I have just changed the damper fluid from the factory 5wt to a 2.5wt to decrease the compression damping further even at wide open).

    I have good mid stroke support and generally do not ever bottom my fork out.

    Just curious as to how many riders don't care for adjustable compression damping?

    For reference, I don't race (only against my own strava) and I am a heavy rider at 107kg.



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    different weight riders with different riding styles need to be accommodated For so the adjuster allows for that in some way (not necessarily the best way but thatís another discussion).

    Having fixed damping would be fine though, I think by compression damping you mean adjustable compression damping? Damping is controlling the rate the fork compresses or extends so you definitely need some damping at least, actually having zero compression would be really bad and the fork needs it to function properly.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    different weight riders with different riding styles need to be accommodated For so the adjuster allows for that in some way (not necessarily the best way but thatís another discussion).

    Having fixed damping would be fine though, I think by compression damping you mean adjustable compression damping? Damping is controlling the rate the fork compresses or extends so you definitely need some damping at least, actually having zero compression would be really bad and the fork needs it to function properly.
    Yes I mean adjustable compression damping.

    And as you said damping is the way to control the compression or rebound of your fork spring.

    But obviously a coil fork with only rebound has no compression damping.

    Is spring rate damping (kind of )?

    I am happy with the spring rate on my air spring and so I run my compression damping wide open.

    I'm interested as to whether others have found a happy spring rate and just run their compression damping wide open all the time.





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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post

    Is spring rate damping (kind of )?





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    I know its not damping

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    I have a 2018 RS Revelation that is my first air spring fork, also my first trail fork with compression damping.

    I run it wide open always...
    Yeah, the Revelation only has about three clicks of compression anyway. My wife runs hers wide open all the time too. I have a Pike RC which I also run wide open all the time. The HSC on the Pike RC is over damped and I bet it is on the Revelation too. On my Fox 36 Grip 2 however I do use a healthy amount of compression damping to control the fork. The Grip 2 has more usable compression because the HSC isn't over-damped when wide open.

  6. #6
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    Coil spring forks also have compression dampers. If they didn't, you'd be riding a pogo stick. Spring rate is not the same as damping. I know several people who simply 'set it and forget it' when it comes to adjustable compression damping. While fine, you're not getting the full benefit of the fork that way.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy G. Parrish View Post
    Coil spring forks also have compression dampers. If they didn't, you'd be riding a pogo stick. Spring rate is not the same as damping. I know several people who simply 'set it and forget it' when it comes to adjustable compression damping. While fine, you're not getting the full benefit of the fork that way.
    The Fox 36 Van R my old reign X1 did not have compression damping.

    Without rebound damping you would definitely be riding a pogo stick.

    Rebound damping controls the fork stroke on extension which stops the pogo stick effect

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    But obviously a coil fork with only rebound has no compression damping.
    ...
    I am happy with the spring rate on my air spring and so I run my compression damping wide open.
    Starting with a platitude: all setup is compromise.

    Engineering basics: Springs store energy in compression and release energy in extension. Dampers dissipate energy (turn it into heat) both on compression and rebound.

    Linking the two: A spring cannot do a damper's job. A damper cannot do a spring's job. "Tuning" is getting the spring and damper to work together to be the best compromise for your riding.

    Both compression and rebound dissipate energy. If you don't dissipate energy on compression, the energy will be stored by the spring compressing deeper. The rebound will be more energetic. The rebound damping then has much more work cut out to dissipate the energy and not be a pogo stick.

    Jumping to conclusions here, I believe you habitually run *too slow* rebound damping compared to what I myself would believe is a good compromise. It is your compromise, so I'm not criticising. Just trying to imagine the cycle of thought that has got you to this place where you're swapping to lower wt. oil and treating compression damping like the enemy.

    The contrary thought is: "Too much rebound damping feels harsh". Because much advice posted on the internet says "harsh = too much compression damping", the natural response is to leave compression damping open. However, IME, it is far easier to end up with rebound too slow as the root cause of harshness problems.

    If you wind off rebound damping, you are obviously trending towards the fork behaving like a pogo stick. This is where compression damping comes in. You can add compression damping to sustain a decent level of energy dissipation *AND* leave rebound fast. You will have a compromise that rides smoother and has control in successive hits.

    Now this supposes that the implementation of damping is sufficiently competent for these adjustments to be meaningful. The Revelation (last time I looked) was a fairly basic implementation.

    Last thought: When suspension is working with a decent compromise you don't have to solve problems elsewhere. e.g. tires can be run at higher pressures and still give grip and comfort; tires can be traditional sizes (2.3-2.5) rather than plus sizes.

  9. #9
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    As with any fork, once I find the sweet spot that's where it stays because most of the XC terrain I ride is similar. Most recent bike has a Yari (160) and I experimented with air pressure, number of tokens and compression/rebound settings until I was happy.

    I'm 220lbs and after dialing things in I ended up with compression wide open which gives me the option of increasing if I plan a ride with more downhill terrain like a lift serviced bike park. Lots of variables so each person needs to find what works best for them. If you never experiment you will never get the optimum setting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Starting with a platitude: all setup is compromise.

    Engineering basics: Springs store energy in compression and release energy in extension. Dampers dissipate energy (turn it into heat) both on compression and rebound.

    Linking the two: A spring cannot do a damper's job. A damper cannot do a spring's job. "Tuning" is getting the spring and damper to work together to be the best compromise for your riding.

    Both compression and rebound dissipate energy. If you don't dissipate energy on compression, the energy will be stored by the spring compressing deeper. The rebound will be more energetic. The rebound damping then has much more work cut out to dissipate the energy and not be a pogo stick.

    Jumping to conclusions here, I believe you habitually run *too slow* rebound damping compared to what I myself would believe is a good compromise. It is your compromise, so I'm not criticising. Just trying to imagine the cycle of thought that has got you to this place where you're swapping to lower wt. oil and treating compression damping like the enemy.

    The contrary thought is: "Too much rebound damping feels harsh". Because much advice posted on the internet says "harsh = too much compression damping", the natural response is to leave compression damping open. However, IME, it is far easier to end up with rebound too slow as the root cause of harshness problems.

    If you wind off rebound damping, you are obviously trending towards the fork behaving like a pogo stick. This is where compression damping comes in. You can add compression damping to sustain a decent level of energy dissipation *AND* leave rebound fast. You will have a compromise that rides smoother and has control in successive hits.

    Now this supposes that the implementation of damping is sufficiently competent for these adjustments to be meaningful. The Revelation (last time I looked) was a fairly basic implementation.

    Last thought: When suspension is working with a decent compromise you don't have to solve problems elsewhere. e.g. tires can be run at higher pressures and still give grip and comfort; tires can be traditional sizes (2.3-2.5) rather than plus sizes.
    This is good stuff.

    I try to run my rebound as open as possible on the trail bike, but as you say the rs moco damper is very basic.

    Last weekend I rode my local shuttle track (pretty mellow track) on both my trail bike with moco damper and my DH bike with FOX40 (that I had only days before adjusted my LSC, HSC and rebound settings)

    The trail bike settings I didn't touch during the weekend, but I did find I had set the rebound on my DH bike way too slow....

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    I have a 2018 RS Revelation that is my first air spring fork, also my first trail fork with compression damping.

    I run it wide open always and have tried it on smooth trails but don't see the point (I have just changed the damper fluid from the factory 5wt to a 2.5wt to decrease the compression damping further even at wide open).

    I have good mid stroke support and generally do not ever bottom my fork out.

    Just curious as to how many riders don't care for adjustable compression damping?

    For reference, I don't race (only against my own strava) and I am a heavy rider at 107kg.



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    You have tried 'what' on smooth trails?

    Generally speaking mine is open, however I open/close it pretty much every single ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    The Fox 36 Van R my old reign X1 did not have compression damping.
    I find that extremely unlikely. There's a world of difference between "no damping" and "no damping adjuster". A fork without compression damping would be entirely unrideable.

  13. #13
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    I had an old marz fork with no damper. Dirt jumper I think. Was as plush as anything. However the lack of control was unbelievable. Even rolling down a farm the vibration was so bad my eyes wouldn't be able to focus!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forest Rider View Post
    You have tried 'what' on smooth trails?
    Adjusting the compression damping

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    Quote Originally Posted by sturge View Post
    As with any fork, once I find the sweet spot that's where it stays because most of the XC terrain I ride is similar. Most recent bike has a Yari (160) and I experimented with air pressure, number of tokens and compression/rebound settings until I was happy.

    I'm 220lbs and after dialing things in I ended up with compression wide open which gives me the option of increasing if I plan a ride with more downhill terrain like a lift serviced bike park. Lots of variables so each person needs to find what works best for them. If you never experiment you will never get the optimum setting.
    This is pretty much what I have found with my revelation and how I also have it setup.

    I do not generally ride a lot of different terrain very often and hence find running the compression wide open the best all round setup for my riding.

    Running a 2.5wt oil instead of the recommended 5wt has been educational to say the least and the jury is still out on it is better or not

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  16. #16
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    On smooth trails, really, your damping is irrelevant. You aren't using the suspension that much, so you dont notice the damper system working.

    Suspension is a constantly screwed up and misunderstood thing. In my opinion, most modern suspension while better than ever, is poorly executed and horribly built to accommodate the average Joe that has no idea what they are doing.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DethWshBkr View Post
    On smooth trails, really, your damping is irrelevant. You aren't using the suspension that much, so you dont notice the damper system working.

    Suspension is a constantly screwed up and misunderstood thing. In my opinion, most modern suspension while better than ever, is poorly executed and horribly built to accommodate the average Joe that has no idea what they are doing.
    I agree with your opinion too.

    When riding smooth trails, my reasoning is that you would not necessarily need/want plush compression damping as there are no square edge hits or rough sections, so it would make sense to run more compression damping (using a single compression damper like a moco damper as an example)

    My opening post was that I am curious as to how many people just run their compression damping wide open as I do (at least on my basic revelation fork)

    Having never owned a trail bike with adjustable compression damping I don't really see where I would use mine.

    Perhaps if 80% of my trails were different to what they are currently, I might use the adjustment more

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    Having never owned a trail bike with adjustable compression damping I don't really see where I would use mine.

    Perhaps if 80% of my trails were different to what they are currently, I might use the adjustment more
    Needing "adjustment" is a distracting argument. It is quite possible to have a compromise setup that handles all encountered situations ok. There might be some final icing on the cake of adjusting for an individual trail but very few people are equipped with certain knowledge that any setting change will actually make things better in any given situation; just watch the videos of top world cup racers debating "puzzling" changes with Jordi Cortes.

    Rider weight and riding style have a massive variation. The suspension product is trying to cope with being targeted at a specific market segment but it does not know who you are, whether you're skinny or a clyde, or whether you've got crazy mad skillz. Air suspension gives you out of the box adjustability to cope with large differences in rider weight. You need adjustable rebound damping because the air pressure (spring rate) used by a light vs heavy rider is going to be so massively different. You (conceivably) need rebound damping adjustment because of ambient temperature changes from summer to winter but that may be as little as one click of change.

    When an existing setup is perceived to be failing to deliver we often hear the words/phrases: "harsh", "wallowy", "repetitive hits", "dives", "arm pump", "vague", "loose", "bottom out". These descriptions don't exactly map to any individual adjustment available. Beginners will obviously ask for advice. Opinions will be offered from the perspective of whatever the opinion-giver has just been experiencing in their own riding lives. Human beings are incredibly unreliable witnesses for this sort of thing. We have an immense capacity for confirmation bias; we half-bake a theory and then cherry-pick facts to neatly slot into place to reinforce our views. This is just part and parcel of being a human being. We all do it. We need to be especially on guard when we are giving or receiving advice.

    General advice that might not fall heavily into this trap is:

    - write everything down (your settings)
    - make one adjustment at a time
    - try the setup out in a variety of situations
    - write everything down (your observations of grip, comfort, control, confidence)
    - if any single adjustment is at the end of its range of adjustment, consider if maybe it is compensating for something that isn't right somewhere else in the setup
    - keep your suspension serviced

    My own experience (warning: opinion coming) is that my perception of "correct" setup tends to drift and I can end up way off. From time to time I need a reset. Factory published settings are useful for sense-checking where you've got to. Sag tests are indicative but useful. I don't get hung up on whether I've used full travel - IME (for the way I ride) I need support and chassis control more than I need to have gotten my money's worth on travel. I also try not to get suckered into believing that some aftermarket turbo fandango hop-up will unleash previously unrealised performance potential - I'd rather run what I brung and adjust a small number of variables than change everything (e.g. the damper cartridge) and then post-rationalise the cost of the upgrade with a bunch of confirmation bias.

    Note: I broke my own rule with my 2018 Lyrik this year by swapping in the upgraded 2019 air spring (low cost upgrade).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    I agree with your opinion too.

    When riding smooth trails, my reasoning is that you would not necessarily need/want plush compression damping as there are no square edge hits or rough sections, so it would make sense to run more compression damping (using a single compression damper like a moco damper as an example)

    My opening post was that I am curious as to how many people just run their compression damping wide open as I do (at least on my basic revelation fork)

    Having never owned a trail bike with adjustable compression damping I don't really see where I would use mine.

    Perhaps if 80% of my trails were different to what they are currently, I might use the adjustment more

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    Just keep in mind, your SPRING is what holds up your weight, and is what is responsible for bottoming. NOT damping.
    Your damping is strictly intended to control the speed of compression or rebound.

    As was said before, ALL suspension is a compromise (except perhaps F1 where they have millions of dollars to spend on a cars shocks!) In the world of bicycles, you will need higher or lower damping depending on your weight (as your spring gets stiffer, damping requirements change), or your personal preference.

    I think one of the big problems, is that high and low speed compression damping are not accessible on all suspension. People make changes to their damping to combat "braking fork dive" or other improper usage of damping, which then screws things up.

    Wide open? Maybe. Right now, I think I have mine wide open on my bike too. But, I don't know that it's the best choice. Unfortunately, my next choice is "trail" mode, which I don't particularly like. But, since I have only those positions, I only have access to TWO usable clicks of LOW SPEED compression damping, and ZERO clicks of HIGH SPEED compression damping.
    So, we are still not truly able to adjsut suspension properly.

    On my Remedy, I do have high and low speed adjustable compression. They are NOT wide open, and they are not set the same. So, it's possible you are just not given the opportunity to realize what real, good suspension is, and so as a result, wide open has been your best choice (since you really only have 2!)

    Even when you have multiple clicks of high and low, the damper stack may not be proper for you!

    When I was racing moto, I never wanted to spend the money on proper springs, or a revalve. I just kept cranking up the low speed compression damping to prevent bottom out. After riding it long enough, I didn't even realize how HARSH it was. Finally, after an internal failure, I sent the forks to a professional suspension builder, and he redid my valving, and got me proper springs. INCREDIBLE difference when the damper stack was actually set to me, and the SPRING RATE determined my bottom-out resistance and gave me the proper support.
    "Go soothingly in the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon"

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB450 View Post
    I agree with your opinion too.

    When riding smooth trails, my reasoning is that you would not necessarily need/want plush compression damping as there are no square edge hits or rough sections, so it would make sense to run more compression damping (using a single compression damper like a moco damper as an example)

    My opening post was that I am curious as to how many people just run their compression damping wide open as I do (at least on my basic revelation fork)

    Having never owned a trail bike with adjustable compression damping I don't really see where I would use mine.

    Perhaps if 80% of my trails were different to what they are currently, I might use the adjustment more

    Sent from my INE-LX2 using Tapatalk
    I dont mean to come across harshly but your not making a lot of sense. If all you ride is smooth trails and feel that the damper is not needed then maybe you should be looking at a fully rigid bike. The damper/spring is there to provide a way to somewhat isolate you from the effect of riding over bumps. Also, maybe someone also mentioned this, if you are looking to firm up the shock, you would do just the opposite of what you say you do (i.e., close the damper and firm up the shock), not open it all the way.

    As you say, you have somewhat limited experience with modern shocks so you may want to do some experimenting to figure out what is going to work best for you and the riding you do. You may find that as you progress toward more challenging trails, you will find the need to adjust the damper to help get better traction and increase control. Cheers
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    For what itís worth, I have been working with DVO as I am dialing in my Sapphire 34 on my Pivot and they told me that they prefer to keep the high speed compression as open as possible, either wide open or just a click or two from open.


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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetta2010 View Post
    I dont mean to come across harshly but your not making a lot of sense. If all you ride is smooth trails and feel that the damper is not needed then maybe you should be looking at a fully rigid bike. The damper/spring is there to provide a way to somewhat isolate you from the effect of riding over bumps. Also, maybe someone also mentioned this, if you are looking to firm up the shock, you would do just the opposite of what you say you do (i.e., close the damper and firm up the shock), not open it all the way.

    As you say, you have somewhat limited experience with modern shocks so you may want to do some experimenting to figure out what is going to work best for you and the riding you do. You may find that as you progress toward more challenging trails, you will find the need to adjust the damper to help get better traction and increase control. Cheers
    No offence taken. I probably wasn't very clear.

    In reference to smooth trails, I was only using smooth trails as an example of when maybe you would need a lot more compression damping.

    I do not mostly ride smooth trails (flow trails etc) but the "rough" trails I ride aren't exactly rock fests or littered with massive root sections.

    The reason for my experiment with a lighter oil is because I feel that my fork is over damped even when wide open.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by petercarm View Post
    Needing "adjustment" is a distracting argument. It is quite possible to have a compromise setup that handles all encountered situations ok. There might be some final icing on the cake of adjusting for an individual trail but very few people are equipped with certain knowledge that any setting change will actually make things better in any given situation; just watch the videos of top world cup racers debating "puzzling" changes with Jordi Cortes.

    Rider weight and riding style have a massive variation. The suspension product is trying to cope with being targeted at a specific market segment but it does not know who you are, whether you're skinny or a clyde, or whether you've got crazy mad skillz. Air suspension gives you out of the box adjustability to cope with large differences in rider weight. You need adjustable rebound damping because the air pressure (spring rate) used by a light vs heavy rider is going to be so massively different. You (conceivably) need rebound damping adjustment because of ambient temperature changes from summer to winter but that may be as little as one click of change.

    When an existing setup is perceived to be failing to deliver we often hear the words/phrases: "harsh", "wallowy", "repetitive hits", "dives", "arm pump", "vague", "loose", "bottom out". These descriptions don't exactly map to any individual adjustment available. Beginners will obviously ask for advice. Opinions will be offered from the perspective of whatever the opinion-giver has just been experiencing in their own riding lives. Human beings are incredibly unreliable witnesses for this sort of thing. We have an immense capacity for confirmation bias; we half-bake a theory and then cherry-pick facts to neatly slot into place to reinforce our views. This is just part and parcel of being a human being. We all do it. We need to be especially on guard when we are giving or receiving advice.

    General advice that might not fall heavily into this trap is:

    - write everything down (your settings)
    - make one adjustment at a time
    - try the setup out in a variety of situations
    - write everything down (your observations of grip, comfort, control, confidence)
    - if any single adjustment is at the end of its range of adjustment, consider if maybe it is compensating for something that isn't right somewhere else in the setup
    - keep your suspension serviced

    My own experience (warning: opinion coming) is that my perception of "correct" setup tends to drift and I can end up way off. From time to time I need a reset. Factory published settings are useful for sense-checking where you've got to. Sag tests are indicative but useful. I don't get hung up on whether I've used full travel - IME (for the way I ride) I need support and chassis control more than I need to have gotten my money's worth on travel. I also try not to get suckered into believing that some aftermarket turbo fandango hop-up will unleash previously unrealised performance potential - I'd rather run what I brung and adjust a small number of variables than change everything (e.g. the damper cartridge) and then post-rationalise the cost of the upgrade with a bunch of confirmation bias.

    Note: I broke my own rule with my 2018 Lyrik this year by swapping in the upgraded 2019 air spring (low cost upgrade).
    Your comments ring very true with my experiences so far.

    I have a one note file on my phone with probably close to 20 notes of each fork setup change since I've had the new bike. And maybe only 5 notes of shock setup (this for me was much easier to get dialled)

    I have definitely gone back to a base setting and started over with fine tuning at least once already. Where I had previously got to in my setup was totally wrong it turned out.

    I also put the debonair spring upgrade in my revelation. Made a big difference.

    Sent from my INE-LX2 using Tapatalk

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