Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared

    Ribbon Air 4.2 lbs. / 1.90 kg
    Ribbon Coil 4.65 lbs. / 2.11 kg
    Coil adds 200g

    Cane Creek Helm Air - 2080g
    Cane Creek Helm Coil - 2340g
    Coil adds 260g


    Vorsprung Smashpot
    Fox 36 160mm - 2020g with Smashpot 2270-2470g (5-5.4lbs)
    Coil adds between 250-450g

    Push ACS3 for Fox 36
    Adds about 210 - 285 grams

    Avalanche Hybrid Open Bath/Coil Damper
    Adds about 280g to a Fox 36 (2275g)

    One thing I'm noticing is a lot of variation in the added weight of coil systems. The Push ACS3 for example might only add a scant 210g over stock, where the MRP's own coil variant of the Ribbon adds a tankly 450g.

    Could the demand for coil gets us even lighter setups? Say, those that utilize titanium or CRFP Carbon "Bellows" springs?
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  2. #2
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    Weight of coil fork conversions is very dependent on the spring rate required. Springs with a higher rate will generally require thicker gauge spring steel and in some cases, more coils as well. Higher volume purchasing could make higher quality spring steal a viable option, but to put that sort of money into R&D and fabrication would require RS/Fox like volume and demand to offer that without doubling the price of the current options.

    Anecdotal evidence, I had a 2017 pike rc 150mm that I put an acs3 into. Using their green spring, I added around 400g to the weight of the bike.

  3. #3
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    Yes titanium springs will save weight over steel, Marzocchi did this on their 44/55/66/888 RC3 ti forks. Downside was if you needed a different weight coil it was hard to come by & almost $200 for the coil.
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    Titanium doesn't make a great spring material....in reality they had a short fatigue life and commonly broke hence why they are all but gone these days

    I don't see coils getting much lighter, for a reasonable price anyway. They don't really need to though as the performance benefit outweighs the weight difference easily.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I don't see coils getting much lighter, for a reasonable price anyway. They don't really need to though as the performance benefit outweighs the weight difference easily.
    You're going to see some composite coils soon that are going to change your mind. In fact keep this post because in 5 years, everyone will be on coil shocks/forks because there will no longer be any weight advantage for air. Costs will be more under control at that time just based on the shear volume and demand as well as new lower cost composites technology. It's coming!

    Have FUN!

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    Exciting stuff, I look forward to seeing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    You're going to see some composite coils soon that are going to change your mind. In fact keep this post because in 5 years, everyone will be on coil shocks/forks because there will no longer be any weight advantage for air. Costs will be more under control at that time just based on the shear volume and demand as well as new lower cost composites technology. It's coming!

    Have FUN!

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    Air springs are pretty good now. They offer tuning options that coils can't duplicate, and they're much easier to sell since 1 fork/shock spring might suit everyone.

    The real magic is in the damper, and there's still plenty of top-shelf stuff that isn't really that optimized.


    I'm excited about composite springs too, but 200-400g isn't really transformative. It will be a nice incremental improvement though. The future is bright.
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    the MRP coil only adds .45 lbs not 450 grams. It's only a ~200g difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    The real magic is in the damper, and there's still plenty of top-shelf stuff that isn't really that optimized.
    Damping comes after spring and friction in terms of how much difference it makes to a fork, most damping forces are so low the gains won't be that large unless the other 2 are optimised first. Sure we can improve on the dampers we have the rest a modern telescopic fork isn't perfect yet
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Damping comes after spring and friction in terms of how much difference it makes to a fork, most damping forces are so low the gains won't be that large unless the other 2 are optimised first. Sure we can improve on the dampers we have the rest a modern telescopic fork isn't perfect yet
    After lots futzing with this sort of thing through the years my highly anecdotal take is he's right. Especially when it comes to the spring vs the damper.

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    Iíll take the weight of a coil spring over stiction any day, coil springs just perform better than air. Itís not for everyone.

    If composite coils actually work and last, Iíd take em if they didnít cost an arm and a leg.

    Iím getting my rear shock, a Bomber CR Coil, revalved, so Iím running a DPX2. The difference is noticeable in trail feel, the coil spring is far more damp than air, keeps the tire in contact with ground better.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfourth View Post
    the MRP coil only adds .45 lbs not 450 grams. It's only a ~200g difference.
    You're totally right. My math got fuzzy. That makes the Ribbon Coil one of the lighter coil upgrades.

    Speaking of dampers, it's kind of a shame the Ribbon can be so finicky for folks. It's definitely one of the few forks I've heard a wide variety of reviews on from folks who are pretty dialed in to suspension performance.
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    Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Damping comes after spring and friction in terms of how much difference it makes to a fork, most damping forces are so low the gains won't be that large unless the other 2 are optimised first.
    I Absolutely agree with that! Take the Luftkape or the DebonAir upgrade for example. They are both spring related and everyone feels the difference straight away. Stick a coil in any fork and it will be transformative as well in terms of plushness and traction.

    Damper is important but it definitely comes after the spring "upgrade" to reduce frictions.

    Even servicing the lowers and re-greasing the seals (without even touching the damper) will make your fork a lot more supple and enjoyable, because (again) it reduces frictions.
    Spring = Confort
    Damper = Control

    Thatís how I see it after riding and tinkering with suspensions for quit a while now.

    Now about the coil vs air weight ... honestly if youíve been riding a coil (front or rear) youíll know the benefits are so much greater than a bit less weight (Iíll make that trade every single time). Itís something you feel when you lift your bike in the garage, but itís totally gone as soon as you ride it. (Itís not like adding weight to your wheels/tires ... I would not be THAT happy otherwise)

    Would it be great to get lighter spring systems/upgrades?! Absolutely

    Nice thread and good idea by the way

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    Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared

    Here is another one.

    ÷hlins RXF 36 Air
    Weight: 2040 g

    ÷hlins RXF 36 Coil
    Weight: 2295 g (with 9.7 spring)

    Like someone said before, the overall weight greatly depends on the spring you use. The lighter you are, the better in terms of total spring weight.

  15. #15
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    On anything but XC, I'll take the weight.

    For XC...I might be willing to take the weight.

  16. #16
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    THat's at least the interesting thing about coil vs air.

    If you can get an air spring to act at least somewhat like a coil, for a heavier rider than doesn't come with any weight added. Of course, lighter riders are probably easier to tune for on air as well.

    I like the idea of Avalanche's hyrbid damper setup with a "helper spring" that allows a combination of both systems. I feel like there could be some development in that by other manufacturers that might allow a shorter spring, less worry about having the exact spring rate, and none of the potential damage of coil conversion on air forks.

    Almost makes you wonder if the same couldn't be inside an airshock...
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  17. #17
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    The damper comes first. By a mile. It's really not even close.

    No one remembers the original motion control coil forks? They were terrible. Smooth? Sure. Nearly zero stiction. Great tiny bump. And then you go fast and the entire fork goes to shit.

  18. #18
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    I think what people are getting at is that once you reach a certain level of performance and damper tech, the spring starts to matter again.

    Crappy damper with an awesome spring? Crappy fork.

    Awesome damper with a crappy spring? 90% there.

    Awesome damper with an awesome spring (and chassis/seals/build quality)? Perfection.

    The fact that so many riders are still doing coil conversions tells us that even with great dampers in the Charger 2.1, GRIP2, Ribbon, etc, the spring becomes the weak link. Then again, plenty of racers do just fine with current crop of air springs, and I'm not sure any are using coil forks in Enduro or WCDH.
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    The damper comes first. By a mile. It's really not even close.

    No one remembers the original motion control coil forks? They were terrible. Smooth? Sure. Nearly zero stiction. Great tiny bump. And then you go fast and the entire fork goes to shit.
    How do you know that was the damper? They were flexy 32mm stanchion forks with minimal lubrication so it is more likely to be the fork binding as the problem. I've preferred 35mm + stanchion forks for the last 12+ years as they don't suffer the same issue, even forks with identical internals

    Counter argument - 2005 Marzocchi 888, open bath. coil spring. Incredibly crude damper. But I have a dirt mag where they declared it the top downhill fork of the time compared to the far more advanced Fox 40 and Manitou dorado! Even the boxxer of the time had better internals.

    Same goes for the shiver and basically any Bomber from that era, they were so basic but people LOVED them. I don't remember anything else of the time having such a cult following
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    In retrospect, we are now acutely aware that those old marz forks were just total mush. They really weren't good.

    Plenty of 32mm forks did end up with decent damper and they did work well, they just weren't Moco forks. You can't honestly say it wasn't the Moco unit.

    There is no work around for a spiking damper. I agree that a great damper with a crap spring is about 90% there. But we're doing pretty well across the board with air springs, so let's call it 95% for a modern fork.

    Don't get me wrong, I've always liked coils. Most of my forks end up with a coil in them, it just works so well... But for the last 10 years I've been tossing in coils, it has ran me 50 or 60 bucks max. Now that they're well into the hundreds and air springs have advanced SO much, it seems pretty silly. The idea got hyped so much that the price doesn't make sense.

    Most of us would pay 50 or 70, or maybe $90 for a revolutionary phenomenal tire, right? Imagine if it 5% better tire came out and it was $400. That'd be ridiculous, and that's where we are with coils.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    There is no work around for a spiking damper. I agree that a great damper with a crap spring is about 90% there. But we're doing pretty well across the board with air springs, so let's call it 95% for a modern fork.
    Who do you think has a "spiking" damper these days?

    The 2018 36 RC2 had the same damper has 2014, do you think that was only 10% better?

    Would you pick a 2014 36 RC2 (was and still is a very good damper, but coil neg spring design) or a 2019 Rockshox Yari?
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    The rc2 is great. Charger works well. Mc2 is great. It seems like dvo is doing good stuff. You made the comment that the spring mattered more than the damper though.

    But that's the high end. That's where you need to be before worrying about what your spring is doing. A coil isn't going to help a yari. Mrp has a comically cheesy orifice damper, coil won't help there. Foxs low end spikes pretty severely despite having a decent spring.

    If you're already on something great and like tinkering, cool! I totally get it and do the same. There needs to be emphasis on the damper first, always. It's the absolute foundation of any suspension.

    I wouldn't ride a yari.

  23. #23
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    Alot of people don't realise how much friction can hinder suspension performance, most dampers produce so little force on compression that friction is actually doing a lot of the "damping" in a many situations. So your damper will never be able to do its job properly until friction has been reduced as far as possible and the spring rate is set appropriately. Every decent tuner will agree on this whether its push bikes, moto or even the best car damper builders are still chasing friction reduction!

    Once that is dialled you can start to really feel the benefits of a good damper. And yeah dampers are way more interesting, I've spent a LOT of time tuning them but like with most things people people undertake, you won't get very far unless you have the basics sorted

    And I would ride a coil sprung Yari over just about any damper with an air spring! (luckily I ride a pike with a smashpot and HC97 though )
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    Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared

    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post

    Push ACS3 for Fox 36
    Adds about 210 - 285g

    One thing I'm noticing is a lot of variation in the added weight of coil systems. The Push ACS3 for example might only add a scant 210g over stock, where the MRP's own coil variant of the Ribbon adds a tankly 450g.
    I donít where those numbers come from but the ACS3 is a lot heavier.

    As an example Iíve got a 29" Yari/Lyric chassis.

    The 160mm air spring is: 61g

    The 160mm ACS3 system is: 152g
    The 45lb (blue) spring is: 253g

    Thatís 344g heavier!

    I'm I bothered? Not at all but letís just say that for the sake of this post we carry on with the weight comparaison/saving .... that same Yari RC 2018 is 2123g

    So (344/2123)*100=16.20%

    We can now confidently say that this specific coil setup is 16% heavier than the air version. All good, now what do we do with that information?!

    - Should a coil and air fork be equal in weight? That would only be possible with a different chassis. By only "swapping" the air spring for a coil spring itís impossible to match.
    - If it was to be lighter ... what would be an acceptable difference in %?! 10,5?!
    - Are the springs used by these conversation kits (or OEM) already as light as possible?
    - Can the springs get the SLS treatment weíve seen a few years ago with the shocks? (Less material, heat treatment, less coils)
    - Does anybody know a company selling light compatible fork springs? Because thatís the only variable we can play with ... unless you know someone selling aftermarket chassis ... and even if itís close to impossible that would not be fair because you could then use that chassis for the air version and we are back to square one again







  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    How do you know that was the damper?
    Because people took the same fork, kludged Manitou TPC compression dampers into them and they instantly improved.

    Then Rockshox saw this and produced the shim stack RCT3 damper (copy of TPC) and it also worked far better.

    The damper makes the ride. Terrible damper makes a terrible fork. Doesn't matter how good the spring is.
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    Few examples of aftermarket fork springs

    MTB Fork specific

    https://www.raceonlysprings.com/prod...e-only-spring/

    Motorbike Fork specific

    (can give away some info about the manufacturer to see if they can make light springs for MTBs)

    https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...w-honda-suzuki

    https://www.hypercoils.com/off-road-powersports/

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Alot of people don't realise how much friction can hinder suspension performance, most dampers produce so little force on compression that friction is actually doing a lot of the "damping" in a many situations.
    Do modern air forks really suffer from excessive friction in comparision to the same fork with a coil?

    Converting to coil, you drop the airspring sealhead and piston seals along with one guide surface since the "piston" no longer contacts the air cyclinder. This is half of the seals and guide surfaces in the fork overall, but I would guess that the bushing/stanchion interface is the bulk of friction? That goes unchanged with a coil fork.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Alot of people don't realise how much friction can hinder suspension performance, most dampers produce so little force on compression that friction is actually doing a lot of the "damping" in a many situations. So your damper will never be able to do its job properly until friction has been reduced as far as possible and the spring rate is set appropriately. Every decent tuner will agree on this whether its push bikes, moto or even the best car damper builders are still chasing friction reduction!

    Once that is dialled you can start to really feel the benefits of a good damper. And yeah dampers are way more interesting, I've spent a LOT of time tuning them but like with most things people people undertake, you won't get very far unless you have the basics sorted

    And I would ride a coil sprung Yari over just about any damper with an air spring! (luckily I ride a pike with a smashpot and HC97 though )
    Dude everything you've said in this thread runs so far contrary to my experience i feel like maybe physics works differently in the southern hemisphere. So confused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Do modern air forks really suffer from excessive friction in comparision to the same fork with a coil?

    Converting to coil, you drop the airspring sealhead and piston seals along with one guide surface since the "piston" no longer contacts the air cyclinder. This is half of the seals and guide surfaces in the fork overall, but I would guess that the bushing/stanchion interface is the bulk of friction? That goes unchanged with a coil fork.
    Air forks are much better than they were but friction is friction and the one thing you can't have too little of. Bushings are the biggest source for sure but that can only be reduced so far so any other reduction is going to improve things

    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg
    Dude everything you've said in this thread runs so far contrary to my experience i feel like maybe physics works differently in the southern hemisphere. So confused.
    That's ok, you might have a different experience but I'll still go off my own testing and feedback from hundreds of riders vs a couple of people on the internet

    I'm not saying damping isn't important but the gains you can make with damping will only go so far if the rest of the system is compromised. So don't go chasing your tail and continually spending time and money on the damper until you've given the rest of the fork some attention

    Case in point - EVERYONE thinks they need less compression damping when the actual forces made by the damper are tiny in most cases, and thats because once you add friction on top of the appropriate amount of damping it becomes harsh. Once you remove friction from the equation you can open up the capability of a damper and things start to work REALLY well.
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    Cool! Everyone is entitled to his own opinion ...

    Now can we move on and maybe join forces to find a way to make coil forks lighter?! For those who prefer coils over air for whatever reasons

    That was the initial request!

    It might be a good idea to start posting your spring details, such as:

    Brand
    ID
    OD
    Length
    Weight
    Rate

    And maybe we can cross-check fork compatibility and find out if spring A is lighter than spring B and compatible with fork X and Y?!

    Thatís what I did with the CaneCreek DB IL Coil + Fox SLS and I ended up with a setup 130g lighter than with the original (light) VALT spring and it was even 50g lighter than my X2. Just saying ...


  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Air forks are much better than they were but friction is friction and the one thing you can't have too little of. Bushings are the biggest source for sure but that can only be reduced so far so any other reduction is going to improve things



    That's ok, you might have a different experience but I'll still go off my own testing and feedback from hundreds of riders vs a couple of people on the internet

    I'm not saying damping isn't important but the gains you can make with damping will only go so far if the rest of the system is compromised. So don't go chasing your tail and continually spending time and money on the damper until you've given the rest of the fork some attention

    Case in point - EVERYONE thinks they need less compression damping when the actual forces made by the damper are tiny in most cases, and thats because once you add friction on top of the appropriate amount of damping it becomes harsh. Once you remove friction from the equation you can open up the capability of a damper and things start to work REALLY well.
    I agree with scott. A lot of your posts seem to come from bizarro world.

    People these days are pretty excited to really crank up the compression on higher end stuff that allows that. Most people on lower end stuff are correctly identifying excessive damping.

    Fork forces are high enough to bruise your hands, if not controlled. I'm at a total loss trying to understand how you dont think that goes right into the damper. Physical pain and damage potential certainly should be considered a "high force", right?? An old CTD fork will ruin your life

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Fork forces are high enough to bruise your hands, if not controlled. I'm at a total loss trying to understand how you dont think that goes right into the damper. Physical pain and damage potential certainly should be considered a "high force", right?? An old CTD fork will ruin your life
    I get that I'm not going to change your mind, I've done the testing and found damper forces aren't high enough to cause bruising in most cases but your dyno runs obviously came up with something different so that's fine you can stick with your experience if you're happy with that
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  33. #33
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    I love air stuff because it's tunable. On a vacation at a DH park, give me air suspension every day and sunday for the rental, rather than a coil spring that is way way off. The fact that they'll set you up on a bike that far off from what you need should be criminal, as they are knowingly sending you out the door with suspension that is not even close.

    I think a lot of what screws over air stuff are the restrictive OEM compression tunes they come with, which forces users to run wide-open LSC/compression, which combines with the air-spring flat mid-stroke to make them wallow, duck, dip, dive and duck.

    I love my coil rear shock too, I'll ride that as my first choice, but I can see the point of air and it works pretty well at shorter travel lengths, perhaps where it's leveraged pretty high as well.

    The carbon-coils will be interesting though, hopefully that is right around the corner. I'd love to see more coil shocks on everything but XC race rigs, where I suspect they'll keep air shocks not for the weight reason, but due to the inherently higher damping created by the increased friction, which will help to control chassis movement a bit more.
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  34. #34
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    Is the title of this post

    "Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared"

    OR

    "Do you prefer air or coil"?!

    Iím confused

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Dude everything you've said in this thread runs so far contrary to my experience i feel like maybe physics works differently in the southern hemisphere. So confused.
    I can confirm that physics in the Southern Hemisphere works exactly as you expect it to. My experience is also diametrically opposed to Jono's. The wrong damper will buzz your hands numb even in an otherwise well functioning fork.

    I'm sure the trail roughness and speed have a big influence. I have had people sell suspension forks with low performing dampers after riding them in my area. If you don't need suspension then anything will do. If you do need suspension then it's gotta work.

    So many examples over the last few years of manufacturers getting their damping horribly wrong. Selling high dollar bikes which are unridable at speed on rocky terrain.

    Carbon coils were showing up at bike shows about 20 years ago. Haven't seen them since but a lot has been learned about carbon since then. Especially FEA software able to predict carbon composite behaviour.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Is the title of this post

    "Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared"
    Fair enough, as you mentioned, the key is to start getting weights complied. Only problem is, and I'm sure you figured this out too, it's almost entirely dependent on the exact spring you are looking at.

    A given brand might tend to be lighter on average, but that doesn't mean their spring in your exact fitment will be the lightest. I imagine this has to do with their manufacturing limits, maybe they have only a couple wire sizes so one rate might be a larger wire with more turns, the next rate up might use smaller wire and fewer turns. Then the next rate is back on the larger wire/more turns...

    It seems to be hard to predict what a spring weight will be based on other springs in the same line.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Fair enough, as you mentioned, the key is to start getting weights complied. Only problem is, and I'm sure you figured this out too, it's almost entirely dependent on the exact spring you are looking at.
    Finally a proper reply, thank you

    Thatís correct and I agree with the rest of your comment but thatís why itís important to physically put them on a scale and measure them ... if everyone is feeding this thread with enough info we might be able to see something trending ... if by exact spring you mean "rate" then itís perfect because thatís exactly what we need to know.

    The "shock" springs are pretty well documented and they have an easy way to show if they are compatible with a given shock stroke and brand.

    Ex: Fox 2.25x400lbs ... boom! You know straight away if it will fit.

    Thatís step 1, the fit ... step 2 in our case being the weight.

    I find that a bit crazy to have to search for a compatible spring as if the dimensions were top secrets! The manufacturers sell the springs for their forks and offer different rates and thatís it ... but nowhere Iíve seen any info printed on them ... like on the shock springs! Weird, no?!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Mrp has a comically cheesy orifice damper, coil won't help there. Foxs low end spikes pretty severely despite having a decent spring.
    A comically bad damper that two of the top five finishers at USA Cycling Enduro National Champs rode and was in the 2017 Pinkbike Suspension Product of the Year. But yeah, completely unrideable.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    A comically bad damper that two of the top five finishers at USA Cycling Enduro National Champs rode and was in the 2017 Pinkbike Suspension Product of the Year. But yeah, completely unrideable.
    Gosh Noah, why so defensive

    Seriously, all we do is bitch about what doesn't work, how heavy stuff is, and how expensive it is, what a rangey bunch of bucks!

    I've been around bikes for a long time, my first suspension for was a Paris Roubaix 700c fork back in the nineties. What we got now rocks!
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    A comically bad damper that two of the top five finishers at USA Cycling Enduro National Champs rode and was in the 2017 Pinkbike Suspension Product of the Year. But yeah, completely unrideable.
    Gosh Noah, why so defensive

    Seriously, all we do is bitch about what doesn't work, how heavy stuff is, and how expensive it is, what a rangey bunch of bucks!

    I've been around bikes for a long time, my first suspension fork was a Paris Roubaix 700c from back in the nineties. What we got now rocks!

    Of course it can always improve
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    A comically bad damper that two of the top five finishers at USA Cycling Enduro National Champs rode and was in the 2017 Pinkbike Suspension Product of the Year. But yeah, completely unrideable.
    Are you guys exploring lighter weight coil spring tech? Anything coming down the pipes? Any interesting dead ends?
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Are you guys exploring lighter weight coil spring tech? Anything coming down the pipes? Any interesting dead ends?
    Not currently. Not that it's not interesting, we just have some other separate projects that are higher priority. I would like to in the future - makes sense for what I think our next mountain bike fork should be...
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    I would like to in the future - makes sense for what I think our next mountain bike fork should be...
    Well of COURSE i'd like to see what the napkin drawing of your next fork looks like. Do you mind sharing what you envision?
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    The manufacturers sell the springs for their forks and offer different rates and thatís it ... but nowhere Iíve seen any info printed on them ... like on the shock springs! Weird, no?!
    I've started listing coil springs by dimensions and rate. But it's intensive work and I've got lots more to do: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou...l-spring-parts
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike156 View Post
    Fair enough, as you mentioned, the key is to start getting weights complied. Only problem is, and I'm sure you figured this out too, it's almost entirely dependent on the exact spring you are looking at.

    A given brand might tend to be lighter on average, but that doesn't mean their spring in your exact fitment will be the lightest. I imagine this has to do with their manufacturing limits, maybe they have only a couple wire sizes so one rate might be a larger wire with more turns, the next rate up might use smaller wire and fewer turns. Then the next rate is back on the larger wire/more turns...

    It seems to be hard to predict what a spring weight will be based on other springs in the same line.
    Yeah thats what happens, I have a 400lb Valt spring that weighs 35g less than a 350, which is pretty common for the CC springs. Doesn't help that they don't do every rate in every stroke, ie the 350 x 3" does everything down to 2.5" stroke which is why its a little heavier. Still, they are pretty light and well priced so not complaining

    I'll tick away at measuring up the springs I have and add it to the thread, I need to catalogue that stuff anyway
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    Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared

    Very cool! I appreciate your help

    4 questions then:

    1) - @Dougal > Do you you mind if I list the springs you have on your websites and put something like " source: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz "!?
    2) - @JohnnyC7 > I can get my hands on a few Push, CaneCreek, RockShox and Ohlins spring ... what about you? So we donít measure/weigh the same ones.
    3) - What should be measured? Length, OD and do we need the ID?

    If any of you reading this thread is willing to help please post your fork spring dimensions, rate and weight!

    Cheers guys

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    1) - @Dougal > Do you you mind if I list the springs you have on your websites and put something like " source: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz "!?
    Go for it.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz, Mech Engineer, Tuner, Manitou, Motorex, Vorsprung EPTC, SKF, Enduro
    www.dougal.co.nz

  48. #48
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    GRRREAT!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Very cool! I appreciate your help

    4 questions then:

    1) - @Dougal > Do you you mind if I list the springs you have on your websites and put something like " source: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz "!?
    2) - @JohnnyC7 > I can get my hands on a few Push, CaneCreek, RockShox and Ohlins spring ... what about you? So we donít measure/weigh the same ones.
    3) - What should be measured? Length, OD and do we need the ID?

    If any of you reading this thread is willing to help please post your fork spring dimensions, rate and weight!

    Cheers guys
    I've got full stock of smashpot springs and get others through the workshop

    Just had an MRP conversion today-

    Firm Spring - blue

    55lb/in 9.5N/mm (calculated rate)

    316mm Free length

    30mm OD

    283g
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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  50. #50
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    Super cool! Thatís great news ... Thanks for the first spring! Iíll get started today and should get other measurements posted within the next few days.

  51. #51
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    Can Coil Forks Rival Air Weight? 29er Coil forks and Conversions Compared

    That could be the answer to light(er) Coil forks!

    ICHU XLS Spring

    The ultimate answer to weight savings in shocks and forks has arrived. By using Ichu TechnologyĎs XLS series springs, not only can you achieve weight savings comparable to titanium springs at less than 1/10 of the cost, you can reduce overall material weight in the entire shock/fork design because the new springs do not require the same overall length as before. The possibilities are endless. Exciting, but will these springs fatigue more easily? Through shotpeening standards applied to the aerospace industry, the new XLS springs enjoy fatigue properties even better than its titanium counterpart. Another breakthrough for the 44 year old spring manufacturer that brought you titanium springs. With over 40 years of experience in spring making, Ichu has put into this new product the sum of its expertise to bring you the future of shock/fork springs.
    Date: 2019/02/14 11:10

    Source: https://www.taipeicycle.com.tw/en_US...636733C6861689

  52. #52
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    Ohlins RXF36 Coil Springs

    ID/OD/Length/Rate

    (35lb/in) - Red
    19.3/30/303/6.1N/mm
    Weight: 201g

    (40lb/in) - Yellow
    19.3/30/303/7.0N/mm
    Weight: 203g

    (45lb/in) - Green
    19.3/30/303/7.9N/mm
    Weight: 253g

    (65lb/in) - Pink
    19.3/30/303/11.5N/mm
    Weight: ???g

    (50lb/in) - Blue
    19.3/30/303/8.8N/mm
    Weight: 253g

    (55lb/in) - White
    19.3/303/9.7N/mm
    Weight: 265g

    (60lb/in) - Black
    19.3/30/303/10.6N/mm
    Weight: 279g


    Compatibility:

    Ohlins RXF36 Coil
    Cane Creek Helm Coil 27.5
    Cane Creek Helm Coil 29

  53. #53
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    Cane Creek Helm -

    29mm OD 302mm long

    Green - 55 lb/in 9.6 N/mm
    Blue - 65lb/in 11.4 N/mm
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Cane Creek Helm -

    29mm OD 302mm long

    Green - 55 lb/in 9.6 N/mm
    Blue - 65lb/in 11.4 N/mm
    Cool! Any idea about the weight please?

  55. #55
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    Push ACS3 Coil Springs

    ID/OD/Length/Rate

    (50lb/in) - Green
    20/29/305/8.7N/mm
    Weight: 260g

    (45lb/in) - Blue
    20/29/305/7.8N/mm
    Weight: 240g

  56. #56
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    They may be the same dimensions and about the same weight, but the Push is twice more expansive.

    ÷hlins RFX36 coil springs: $45
    CaneCreek Helm coil springs: $40
    Push ACS3 coil springs: $80

    Can someone confirm they are cross compatible and they fit into each otherís chassis?!

    Source

    https://www.fanatikbike.com/products...6-coil-springs

    https://www.fanatikbike.com/collecti...m-coil-springs

    https://www.fanatikbike.com/collecti...yrik-2016-2019

  57. #57
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    Glad I could get this rolling. If manufacturers know that consumers are interested in lighter weight coil forks, maybe they'll start doing some investigation in their product development as well.

    I would totally ride a coil fork if it allowed a wide range of travel adjustment and only a 200g weight increase, and obviously a quality damper.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Glad I could get this rolling. If manufacturers know that consumers are interested in lighter weight coil forks, maybe they'll start doing some investigation in their product development as well.

    I would totally ride a coil fork if it allowed a wide range of travel adjustment and only a 200g weight increase, and obviously a quality damper.
    You pretty much described the MRP Ribbon coil.

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