Avalanche Woodie vs Push Eleven Six- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Avalanche Woodie vs Push Eleven Six

    Two of the most respected suspension guys out there....push is pricier....anyone tried both? I'm looking to throw one of these on my Guerilla gravity Megatrail. Gotta wait if I choose Push for a heavier spring but they should be getting them this summer. I like everything I've read and heard about Craigs Avalanche Woodie and his expertise.

    Feedback from experience would be great! Thx!!
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  2. #2
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    I've only ever dealt with Craig, but have ordered numerous shock tunes from him along with a fork cartridge. He's stuff has always transformed my bike. He's great to deal with will talk to you in as much detail as you want/can understand about your setup and what you looking for.

    Do yourself a favor and at least call him and chat before you do anything.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Yeah I've exchanged emails and he been very close to pulling the trigger on the avy. Putting the final nail in the coffin on the 11-6 before I order the avy
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  4. #4
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    And to add to that, I loved my Woodie, it was like having my cake and eating it too, in terms of firm low-speed compression damping and bike stability (not wobling through the g-outs and ruts), but still blowing off like butter for the high speed bumps. As you went faster through rough terrain, it felt better and better, kind of the opposite of what I've always experienced with OEM shocks.

    Lots of times when there was a sharp-bump in the trail, rock, root, something, and it just felt like level ground because the shock worked so well.

    I should get my Lyric avalanche cartridge on Monday and once my Fox RC4 shows up, I'm sending my Monarch+ off to get the treatment at Avy.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #5
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    I can't speak for the avy but I really like the ElevenSix on my Turner RFX. That said, go Extreme! Storia Extreme Shox | Stendec

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I can't speak for the avy but I really like the ElevenSix on my Turner RFX. That said, go Extreme! Storia Extreme Shox | Stendec
    Wow, talk about a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo:

    "With the changing world of the mountain bike and the increased use of the 275 wheel size, EXT & STENDEC have spent considerable time evaluating effects of damping frequencies that 275 produces against 26 inch.

    As 275 smooths out the bigger holes that 26 falls into on the trail and DH course and the increased speed you ride at, this requires a finer tuned suspension with a bigger range of high frequency control, both the ARMA & STORIA are available in these tunes giving you an enhanced 275 ride."




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    Wow, talk about a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo:

    "With the changing world of the mountain bike and the increased use of the 275 wheel size, EXT & STENDEC have spent considerable time evaluating effects of damping frequencies that 275 produces against 26 inch.

    As 275 smooths out the bigger holes that 26 falls into on the trail and DH course and the increased speed you ride at, this requires a finer tuned suspension with a bigger range of high frequency control, both the ARMA & STORIA are available in these tunes giving you an enhanced 275 ride."

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.
    Well, it's translated from Italian I did a parking lot test with one mounted on an Ibis HD3 the other day. It was awesome on curbs and g-outs in the parking lot. I rode up some steps and the traction was phenomenal.

    No really, it did feel pretty nice and if I was considering an 11-6, Chubbie, or Cane Creek coil I would at least consider it. It's lighter than the 11-6 and $200 cheaper. Something to consider anyway.

  8. #8
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    Cool! I'm a big fan of Avalanche as there's not been one unhappy person I could find.

    I'm probably.going to pull the trigger on the woodie. I Like Push because its a hometown company and the 11-6 is pretty badass, but I also like Avy's simplicity and from.what I gather from Craig's comments the Woodie is 90% dialed in the minute I get it. The other 10% is purely personal preference adjustments. Both have rave reviews but the Avy is $600 less. Hmmm
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  9. #9
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    While I love my Woodie in my DH bike, don't you have a switch on the Push shock that gives you two different damping settings?? So almost like a climb switch? That would be attractive on a pedally bike. Call Craig and ask his opinion on it. He might steer you in a different direction.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

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    I'd much rather give the business to PUSH than Avalanche. If you like listening to Craig go on and on about his ego and like getting totally whack damping setups, then Avalanche is your place. Darren is much more reasonable to deal with.

    That is one expensive shock though...

  11. #11
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    The Push does have that feature, however I hvnt used my climb switch on the CCDB air I have on it now so not sure I need it. Plus the Megatrail has a gravity mode setting that makes this bike somewhat dual purpose Trail and DH. Setting it up more gravity oriented anyways. Ill call Craig tomorrow. Thx for the advice
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GH28 View Post
    and like getting totally whack damping setups, then Avalanche is your place.
    Care to explain that in more detail?
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  13. #13
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    A few things I would consider when purchasing a high end aftermarket shock:

    1. What technology am I getting? With ELEVENSIX we have created the only MTB shock that offers our Dual Overhead Technology. In simple terms this gives you two completely different shocks in one, user defined, and switchable on-the-fly while riding. So rather than having a suspension tuner or manufacturer define your setup, you the rider finally get to decide what's best for you with controls at your finger tips.

    2. How closely did the suspension company work with the bike company? In the case of the ELEVENSIX, we get each and every bike on our application list for full evaluation. This includes significant saddle time! Once completed with our R&D we submit a final sample to the frame manufacture for feedback before releasing it to the public. As an example, this level of development with the manufacture is why ELEVENSIX is the only manufacturer approved coil over for the Pivot Mach6.

    3. What kind of test and development goes into the product? With ELEVENISX, not only do we use state-of-the-art on board data logging equipment and custom built suspension simulators from Roehrig Engineering in support of our engineering department, but each and every ELEVENSIX is dyno tested prior to leaving our building and being delivered to your door in order to ensure quality.

    4. Where is the product manufactured? Not everyone finds this one important, but we sure do! In the case of ELEVENSIX, 100% of the machined parts are manufactured under our roof from only domestic raw materials and every vendor component is sourced domestically. This is a claim only we can make. While this does cost more, it ensures a level of precision and quality that simply can't be duplicated when outsourcing production to Asia.

    5. What type of product support to I get? In the case of PUSH you get a direct link to the people who designed, manufactured, tested, and hand assembled your product. No matter what the level of support you need, it is readily available by our staff of professionals. This is why we make our phone number and email readily available on the website.

    6. How future proof is the product? ELEVENSIX is designed to be a long term purchase featuring unrivaled durability and performance. If/When you get a new bike your shock can simply be sent in for a Factory Rebuild and reconfigured for that new bike no matter what the change. If the new bike is on the list, we can get you sorted.


    Darren

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    Thx for chiming in Darren! In all honesty I'd have that shock on my GG Megatrail if you had a spring to support my weight. I've been waiting a year for the heavier spring weights and getting closer to park riding season. It's worth the wait if I can get it in time. I'm running 250# dressed so I'm way over the weight limit but I have a strong desire for a coil shock over the cane creek db air that I have now. Any news on the lead time for heavier springs?
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattD View Post
    Thx for chiming in Darren! In all honesty I'd have that shock on my GG Megatrail if you had a spring to support my weight. I've been waiting a year for the heavier spring weights and getting closer to park riding season. It's worth the wait if I can get it in time. I'm running 250# dressed so I'm way over the weight limit but I have a strong desire for a coil shock over the cane creek db air that I have now. Any news on the lead time for heavier springs?
    I hear ya. We really underestimated spring rates for the 2.25" stroke shocks as we didn't think they would be too popular. Boy were we wrong! Anyway, I'll see where we are on the stiffer designs and let you know.

    Darren

  16. #16
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    Thx! I'd order tomorrow if they're close
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Well, it's translated from Italian I did a parking lot test with one mounted on an Ibis HD3 the other day. It was awesome on curbs and g-outs in the parking lot. I rode up some steps and the traction was phenomenal.

    No really, it did feel pretty nice and if I was considering an 11-6, Chubbie, or Cane Creek coil I would at least consider it. It's lighter than the 11-6 and $200 cheaper. Something to consider anyway.
    Seems to have a pretty standard motorcross high/low circuit in the reservoir bridge, nothing earth-shattering, but it can work very well, it's essentially what Avy uses in many of their shocks, except you have to have a custom tune of course for maximum benefits.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  18. #18
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    It's lighter than the 11-6 and $200 cheaper. Something to consider anyway.
    It's lighter because the coil spring has a limited fatigue life of one season, something we opted against. ELEVENSIX is the lightest coil shock on the market that doesn't have a fatigue limit so season after season you're good to go.

    Darren

  19. #19
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    Just to continue the discussion since those posting in this thread are industry or coil aficionados but did anyone read the reviews in BIKE?

    This w/ regard to the DHX2...
    like pretty much every coil shock, it makes the bike feel less lively. Since you can't make the coil ramp in the same way as an air spring, you'll trade a bit of pop and playfulness for ground-hugging performance.
    This w/ regard to the CC DB coil....
    fearless plowing comes at a price....the lively pop of the bike is diminished.
    Both reviews were on a Nomad which rode to me more like a plow bike (with an air shock) and nimble and playful was not my general impression. It is also implied by one review that switching to coil turns your all mountain shredder to a downhill brawler. Again not my impression with a Pushed VanR, MX tune, or now the ElevenSix. They also review the latter shock as well as the Ext Storia but not much meat in either review other than they look nice.

    If anything, the avy mod on the Fox CTD shock I had on my Ibis Ripley killed the pop at the expense of much better mid stroke support/suppleness. It was a trade I was willing to make. Funny, that was the only thing I liked about the CC Inline. Very playful at high speed but I couldn't tune it to my liking for pretty much anything else. I'm really digging the ElevenSix. Playful and lively are exactly what comes to mind and I find myself looking for any opportunity to boost section of trail and launch tree rooty sections and rock gardens. I don't see any reason not to run a coil on your all mountain trail rig except for the weight penalty.

  20. #20
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    I don't think you can go wrong with either. That being said I've got a Chubie w/ ti Spring on my Mojo HD and couldn't be happier. Truly bottomless & plush. Works well with the DW link and I have little to no pedal bob.

    Let us know how you like whichever one you choose!

  21. #21
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    To bump this back up a bit.... Craig at Avy called me up to talk to me about my Woodie and fork cartridge revalves in order to get things sorted. Let's just say he's passionate about his work and where he stands in terms of custom suspension vs the mass-produced stuff (Fox, RS...everything one else). I'm sure the guys at Push are the same and as equally skilled. All I can say is after riding custom valved and built stuff for the last 4 or so years, my Float X2 on my trail bike doesn't feel all that special...it feels 'meh'. Luckily for me there are plans in the works for it
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  22. #22
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    It's really a no brainer...CALL CRAIG AT AVALANCHE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    GH28 is the first person I ever heard have anything negative to say towards Craig's work..
    I agree that the switch is basically a selling gizmo...I had the switch on my CCDBA-CS and on my Pike..I tried them both and they work ok, but the 1st time you forget to switch them back before your decline(YES THAT WILL HAPPEN) you'll realize that it's not even worth it...

    save your money and get the Woodie !!!!!!!! think of it this way, with the money you save going with AVY.... you could buy a BRAND NEW wheelset from Merlins with Hope Pro4 hubs,Stan's Flow EX rims, and DT competition spokes !!!!!!!!!!!!

    plus NEVER have to worry about your shock again...
    It will blow your mind how good it feels every time you ride it

    I have Avy cartridge in my totem, had a RC4 with AVY guts, currently have a Fox shock with AVY guts on my AM bike,have a DHS shock and a DHF8.5 MT on my big bike....EVERYTHING Craig touches is amazing !!!!! i mean that too..

    I really wish everyone could see our sunday ride group...we all have been using AVY everything for the past decade !!!! and we beat the crap out of our big hit bikes on a weekly basis..NEVER had a failure of any kind !!!!!!! occasional fork seal and that is it....that is why i am so pro AVY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  23. #23
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    Thx _rich_ !

    Both great shocks and both are very passionate about their product. I don't think anyone can go wrong either way just gotta pull the trigger soon and pick one.
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    It's lighter because the coil spring has a limited fatigue life of one season, something we opted against. ELEVENSIX is the lightest coil shock on the market that doesn't have a fatigue limit so season after season you're good to go.

    Darren
    A Storia EXT 200x57mm unit weighs 620 grams with spring.

  25. #25
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    Any updates on the heavier springs Darren?
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Just to continue the discussion since those posting in this thread are industry or coil aficionados but did anyone read the reviews in BIKE?

    This w/ regard to the DHX2...

    This w/ regard to the CC DB coil....

    Both reviews were on a Nomad which rode to me more like a plow bike (with an air shock) and nimble and playful was not my general impression. It is also implied by one review that switching to coil turns your all mountain shredder to a downhill brawler. Again not my impression with a Pushed VanR, MX tune, or now the ElevenSix. They also review the latter shock as well as the Ext Storia but not much meat in either review other than they look nice.

    If anything, the avy mod on the Fox CTD shock I had on my Ibis Ripley killed the pop at the expense of much better mid stroke support/suppleness. It was a trade I was willing to make. Funny, that was the only thing I liked about the CC Inline. Very playful at high speed but I couldn't tune it to my liking for pretty much anything else. I'm really digging the ElevenSix. Playful and lively are exactly what comes to mind and I find myself looking for any opportunity to boost section of trail and launch tree rooty sections and rock gardens. I don't see any reason not to run a coil on your all mountain trail rig except for the weight penalty.
    Yeah, I call BS on that. I put a DHX2 on my Nomad and it's just as lively as the DebonAir or the Vivid air.
    Come stay and play at da Kingdom Trails! - http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p3486813

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GH28 View Post
    I'd much rather give the business to PUSH than Avalanche. If you like listening to Craig go on and on about his ego and like getting totally whack damping setups, then Avalanche is your place. Darren is much more reasonable to deal with.

    That is one expensive shock though...
    Hi there GH28

    I'm fairly new to this forum but have been reading with much interest for some time now.

    I've read some of your posts and fully understand that you come across as someone who has an intimate understanding of the internal workings of hydraulic dampers.

    However, I fully understand that this is a public arena for everyone to share their opinions or even to get on their soapboxes, however, please can you elaorate on your comments above please ?

    I'm not trying to be a smartarse here, I'm just curious, just asking !

    Cheers

    Richie

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GH28 View Post
    I'd much rather give the business to PUSH than Avalanche. If you like listening to Craig go on and on about his ego and like getting totally whack damping setups, then Avalanche is your place. Darren is much more reasonable to deal with.

    That is one expensive shock though...
    Hi there GH28

    I'm fairly new to this forum but have been reading with much interest for some time now.

    I've read some of your posts and fully understand that you come across as someone who has an intimate understanding of the internal workings of hydraulic dampers.

    However, I fully understand that this is a public arena for everyone to share their opinions or even to get on their soapboxes, however, please can you elaorate on your comments above please ?

    I'm not trying to be a smartarse here, I'm just curious, just asking !

    Cheers

    Richie

  29. #29
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    Similar experience and I started this thread. I went with Fox DHX2 for a lot less and it's been fine for mE. Shame because I really wanted the Avy for my megatrail but Craig's attitude didn't appeal to me. I couldn't imagine having to deal with him if I had an issue.
    Canfield Nimble 9/Canfield Balance

  30. #30
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    I'd take an elevensix over a woodie no question. However in reality they is no way I can spend 1200 on a shock and would not hesitate to let Craig take care of me.

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  31. #31
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    Seeing the new crop of long travel 29ers, I can see the Eleven-six becoming more popular or more relevant: 150mm or 160mm is a lot of squish to mash up tight switchbacks, techy steep uphills, etc. One setting you have the tuning of a trail bike that can get you up those hills and still capable of those downhills during those trail rides. Flip the switch and you have completely different damping for the long downhill rides.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattD View Post
    I couldn't imagine having to deal with him if I had an issue.


    that's exactly where everything just goes all to hell. i really don't care how good his shyt "can" be. it's just not worth it
    breezy shade

  33. #33
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    Wow you guys must have had some bad experiences. When I had stuff rebuilt and revalved he was really good to deal with. Haven't had any issues yet to deal with but the cartridges and shocks are high quality that I can't see why something would fail.

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  34. #34
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    Craig does call you to let you know what he's going to do to the shock, I like that part. There are negative stories from both tuners, but on the whole, they both know what they are doing and both make good stuff.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    I wish Push Ind would post on their website what their pistons and other custom parts do vs oem as well as have tech drawings. While I don't doubt they do good things (my Push'd MX tune DHX is pretty awesome), I'd like to know technically "why and how" their internals work better.

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    Last edited by Christopher Robin; 08-21-2016 at 04:24 PM.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    I wish Push Ind would post on their website what their pistons and other custom parts do vs oem as well as have tech drawings. While I don't doubt they do good things (my Push'd MX tune DHX is pretty awesome), I'd like to know technically "why and how" their internals work better.

    Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
    It's coming. New photography is being done now for the new website which will hopefully go live around Interbike. We've been very busy this season building new stuff.

    Darren

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Craig does call you to let you know what he's going to do to the shock, I like that part. There are negative stories from both tuners, but on the whole, they both know what they are doing and both make good stuff.
    i wish i had got that call. the whole miserable mess would not have happened
    breezy shade

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    i wish i had got that call. the whole miserable mess would not have happened
    ****ty deal, Craig's called me when he's revalved my stuff every time. At the start of the season we had a pretty discussion over the valving of my cartridge as he was about to work on it: discussing spring rate, preload...etc because I was in between rates. Even for my shock revalve we went back and forth about spring rate, what I should be feeling...etc, and then gave me a deal on a new spring because I was going down a rate.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    ****ty deal, Craig's called me when he's revalved my stuff every time. At the start of the season we had a pretty discussion over the valving of my cartridge as he was about to work on it: discussing spring rate, preload...etc because I was in between rates. Even for my shock revalve we went back and forth about spring rate, what I should be feeling...etc, and then gave me a deal on a new spring because I was going down a rate.
    he must have learned a thing or 3 from my deal, cause reading about yours, mine was @ the opposite end of the spectrum. total exasperation, completely avoidable & 100% unacceptable.
    breezy shade

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    ^Interesting how sooooo many people have had positive experiences with Avalanche, but you had such a negative one. Maybe....just maybe, do you think you might have been a part of the problem, or how do you explain your experience being outside the bell curve?

    My conversation with Craig was great, I understood his personality type and that his knowledge of suspension is much more advanced then mine. I am sure it is difficult when you have to explain the same things over and over again, or even argue with customers day after day via email and phone.

    I found I just had to tell him how I ride, size, what I didn't like about my pike, and how I wanted it to perform. Guess what, he nailed it!

  41. #41
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    FWIW, I've had Criag tune a shock and I bought a pike cartridge through him and my experiences were not uniformly positive. I know a couple other people who've purchased avalanche products and weren't thrilled with the interactions.

    Part of the problem is that you don't really talk *with* Craig. He talks *at* you. He's often either diving way too far down into the minutia or way too high level such that you're not really getting good info either way. He quickly gets frustrated and starts complaining about how he has to has the same conversation on the phone and over email non-stop even though he's written it out on the site. He complains that no one understands what he's saying. He can sound like he's being condescending even if he may not mean to be.

    It's the flip side of what jonshonda wrote -- if Craig has to repeatedly explain it then his presentation needs work. The problem isn't entirely with everyone else.

    My first call about the pike started with me saying, "Hi, I'm interested in getting the pike cartridge and had a few questions." That was followed by minutes worth of complaining about the state of mtb suspension (accurately enough probably), followed by complaining about all the calls he gets from people, followed by complaining about how people call themselves semi-pros when they really suck and so on. I hadn't even had a chance to ask my dumb questions before he was worked into a lather.

    To his credit, he really will spend a lot of time on the phone with you. He does seem to legitimately want to help. I think that kind of interaction with customers just isn't his strong suit. I've worked with enough engineers and software developers to have seen the same traits frequently. I think he'd be happier if he hired someone who enjoys that part of the job to do the customer interaction. That, or just go full soup nazi and only allow people to get their suspension if they fill out the form online properly and leave it at that.

    I've decided that the best way to deal with him is to just fill out the form on the website with weight, riding style, bike, etc and let him do his thing. I've been happy with the products themselves.

  42. #42
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    This is precisely the issue. The conversations are very one way, and reliably include everything listed above, in repetition, in addition to the obligatory "I have 30 years of experience and a Master's Degree in Mechanical Engineering" - whether or not you actually asked for, or was even wondering about that information.

    When I hear people say "he took the time to listen to what it was I was looking for", I wonder who the hell they were talking to.

    This is on top of the extremely strange tuning that seems to come from them.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    ^Interesting how sooooo many people have had positive experiences with Avalanche, but you had such a negative one. Maybe....just maybe, do you think you might have been a part of the problem, or how do you explain your experience being outside the bell curve?

    My conversation with Craig was great, I understood his personality type and that his knowledge of suspension is much more advanced then mine. I am sure it is difficult when you have to explain the same things over and over again, or even argue with customers day after day via email and phone.

    I found I just had to tell him how I ride, size, what I didn't like about my pike, and how I wanted it to perform. Guess what, he nailed it!

    i bought a Marz 55 RC3 Ti just on rumor that AV was going to be doing cartridges for them. oh boy! went the normal route filling the online form & talking w/ you know who. conversation was mainly going over the form & BSing about his business's . OK, he likes himself. fine.
    a week of riding & i aint feeling the wonderfulness at all. sag is only 3/4 ", it's just overall way too firm unless i'm on a high speed, bigger hit trail. but definitely not the super plush, controlled feeling. i'd ridden a friends Fox Float w/ AV cart, so i know what they ride like.
    i call AV & tell i'm not happy at all. he just can't believe it. never heard such a thing." everybody else says it's the best thing they've ever done to their bike". after a fairly long time w/o coming to any conclusions, i figure i'll just give it time & experiment w/ tune settings.
    after months of riding, it just isn't cutting it. i take the spring out & see that it's a 7.2 Newton Meter. doesn't mean anything to me. i call Marzocchi Tech & they tell me it's for about a 215 pound rider. i email AV, ask if the cart was built for my weight or the spring rate. he responds that it was for the spring, of course. well, WTF! my weight is 170! you didn't think @ any point before now, that should have come up?
    his reply? "what did you expect me to do, buy you a spring?" real professional
    my reply. " no, i would expect you to tell me you can't build a custom cart for me w/ that spring". there was plenty more, but...
    Eventually, i find a 6.0 Nm ti spring. get ahold of AV again to discuss a revalve to match the new spring & he says the only thing he would change is the LSR. that's it, everything else stays the same? "yep"
    that sound right?
    i can't type anymore
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    i bought a Marz 55 RC3 Ti just on rumor that AV was going to be doing cartridges for them. oh boy! went the normal route filling the online form & talking w/ you know who. conversation was mainly going over the form & BSing about his business's . OK, he likes himself. fine.
    a week of riding & i aint feeling the wonderfulness at all. sag is only 3/4 ", it's just overall way too firm unless i'm on a high speed, bigger hit trail. but definitely not the super plush, controlled feeling. i'd ridden a friends Fox Float w/ AV cart, so i know what they ride like.
    i call AV & tell i'm not happy at all. he just can't believe it. never heard such a thing." everybody else says it's the best thing they've ever done to their bike". after a fairly long time w/o coming to any conclusions, i figure i'll just give it time & experiment w/ tune settings.
    after months of riding, it just isn't cutting it. i take the spring out & see that it's a 7.2 Newton Meter. doesn't mean anything to me. i call Marzocchi Tech & they tell me it's for about a 215 pound rider. i email AV, ask if the cart was built for my weight or the spring rate. he responds that it was for the spring, of course. well, WTF! my weight is 170! you didn't think @ any point before now, that should have come up?
    his reply? "what did you expect me to do, buy you a spring?" real professional
    my reply. " no, i would expect you to tell me you can't build a custom cart for me w/ that spring". there was plenty more, but...
    Eventually, i find a 6.0 Nm ti spring. get ahold of AV again to discuss a revalve to match the new spring & he says the only thing he would change is the LSR. that's it, everything else stays the same? "yep"
    that sound right?
    i can't type anymore
    Hi

    Just curious and just asking , did you specify the optional FvAT/HSB or just keep it standard ?

    Why I ask is that my first cart for a 34 is without and my new 36 WITH FvAT/HSB is slightly smoother on square edge hits !

    Just askin'

    Thanks

    Richie

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    i bought a Marz 55 RC3 Ti just on rumor that AV was going to be doing cartridges for them. oh boy! went the normal route filling the online form & talking w/ you know who. conversation was mainly going over the form & BSing about his business's . OK, he likes himself. fine.
    a week of riding & i aint feeling the wonderfulness at all. sag is only 3/4 ", it's just overall way too firm unless i'm on a high speed, bigger hit trail. but definitely not the super plush, controlled feeling. i'd ridden a friends Fox Float w/ AV cart, so i know what they ride like.
    i call AV & tell i'm not happy at all. he just can't believe it. never heard such a thing." everybody else says it's the best thing they've ever done to their bike". after a fairly long time w/o coming to any conclusions, i figure i'll just give it time & experiment w/ tune settings.
    after months of riding, it just isn't cutting it. i take the spring out & see that it's a 7.2 Newton Meter. doesn't mean anything to me. i call Marzocchi Tech & they tell me it's for about a 215 pound rider. i email AV, ask if the cart was built for my weight or the spring rate. he responds that it was for the spring, of course. well, WTF! my weight is 170! you didn't think @ any point before now, that should have come up?
    his reply? "what did you expect me to do, buy you a spring?" real professional
    my reply. " no, i would expect you to tell me you can't build a custom cart for me w/ that spring". there was plenty more, but...
    Eventually, i find a 6.0 Nm ti spring. get ahold of AV again to discuss a revalve to match the new spring & he says the only thing he would change is the LSR. that's it, everything else stays the same? "yep"
    that sound right?
    i can't type anymore
    I'm confused. Did you already have the 7.2 nm spring before sending it to Avy?
    Did you tend try riding the fork as is with the 6 .0nm spring?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge View Post
    i can't type anymore
    My guess is that he figured you liked to ride a stiff spring, otherwise why would you send him the fork with that spring in it? I would bet he doesn't count on customers sending him the incorrect parts, and just tunes based on what is in front of him.

    Unfortunately this is mostly on you, although he "could" have dug into why exactly you were riding such a stiff spring.

  47. #47
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    Both me and my friend have had the same treatment from AV. My experience was pretty bad and costed me unnecessary dollars. My friends experience was REALLY bad. I won't elaborate online but I agree with the others that have said it's not worth the headaches.
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  48. #48
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    All companies have their moments. My absolute worst mountain biking experience in my 31 year gravity racing pursuits was dealing with push. I vowed never to send them anything again but hope they've pulled it together.
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  49. #49
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    Having worked retail for years, I always take these kinds of posts with a grain of salt, especially when there are such extremes when it come to experience.

    I know the customer can send the tone downhill very quickly. Don't bother with the customer is always right BS response.

    That said, I've had 2 shocks and 1 fork cart from Craig and they've all been positive experiences.
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  50. #50
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    Well, I took the Avy RC4 on a 30 mile epic today in my home state, a ride that includes big rock-steps and chunk at speed, a few muddy chutes, lots more rocks, a few drops, and lots of roots. Man, this thing is dialed. I was in WA state a couple weeks ago where I went to a bunch of different trail areas and rode over the course of a week. I tried to systematically tune the settings, and at first I didn't think it was much better than my Monarch+, if at all, in fact, there were things I thought the monarch did a lot better. Well, from this ride I came away thinking "man, this thing is dialed". Never harsh, always sticking to the ground, able to absorb super-chunk at high speed. I was laughing as I went down the big rock-steps, because almost no one rides these due to most suspension not being able to handle it. Able to ride uphill over lots of sharp pointy rocks as if they aren't there. I think on my last day in WA I had the shock pretty dialed, for the Double Diamond and Double Down DH trails in Chuckanuts, but today totally confirmed it. Both ends were totally in unisen and just so well damped, so far beyond what they give you for OEM tunes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  51. #51
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    This seems like the place to post this. I think it is very pertinent, but do feel not very nice about posting it.

    First off, I've had very good dealings with Avy on a very superficial level. Craig seems very knowledgeable and passionate about his stuff.

    There seems to be a common thread here, unfortunately - how Avy handles problems. My ultimate decision on who to buy from is based on how a company handles problems with their products. Biking is an abusive sport and issues are bound to happen to even the best product.

    Earlier this year one of my long time, best friends, (not some guy who told some guy) sent a Fox rear shock to Avy for a tune. After getting it back and riding it for less than one ride the shock died. Of course my friend called Avy to see what could be done. He was shocked at Avy's response. There was a very accusatory tone that the rider was trying to get something for nothing, when all he wanted to do was discuss the issue. I know this guy and he is not at all someone who dickers, almost to a fault. Finally Avy admitted something along the lines that the rear shock was old, and it was no suprise it failed so quickly. Would you not think that is something the engineer should have brought up during the initial conversation? Any reasonable mechanic would tell me it's not worth it to replace the transmission on a 1987 rust bucket Buick Skylark.

    Avy did ultimately take the shock back and the last I heard it was getting worked on.

  52. #52
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    I totally agree! That's the reason I was careful to not bash Craig's product in my post. Hell....I'm in sales and hAve my moments as well. It's all good info for us to use at our discretion to help make our decision.
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  53. #53
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    Everyone says Craig at Avy is this great guy, but my phone experience with him recently was quite the opposite. I called to discuss what modifying my Monarch Plus would do for my tracer and what i was looking for out of it. We talked for 5 minutes then he cut the conversation off and told me to just research it more on the internet and we could talk more about Avy's services once I purchased something. Not really the kind of service I am looking for. Im sure his work is great tho.
    Last edited by getupgetdown; 08-29-2016 at 10:14 PM.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by getupgetdown View Post
    Everyone says Craig at Avy is this great guy, but my phone experience with him recently was quite the opposite. I called to discuss what modifying my Monarch Plus would do for my tracer and what i was looking for out of it. We talked for 5 minutes then he cut the conversation off and told me to just research it more on the internet and we could talk more about Avy's services once I purchased something. Not really the kind of service I am looking for. Im sure his work is great, but the guys a d1ck if you ask me.
    Avalanche is basically a one-man operation as far as the actual shocks go, Craig does the stuff himself, which can leave little time I'd imagine to talk about it. I believe this is why the website is so expanded with everything from the internal parts and diagrams to descriptions and multiple option-boxes. That doesn't excuse not answering a question, but he told me some of the frustrating parts of the business were all the boxes with shocks that people send to him with no information in the box and nothing filled out online, so they sit there and he has to go back and try to figure out who they came from. Again, none of that excuses not answering a question, but maybe he needs some more help, someone knowledgeable like himself, to help with some of the ancillary stuff.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  55. #55
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    I know what people are saying though when Craig can be a little abrasive. He's a pretty precise guy and if you don't give precise answers, he can get a little impatient. I've made a habit of trying to really pay attention to what my suspension is doing so when I do call him with a question, it's to the point and he can answer it. I also appreciate the tech stuff and drawings on the webpage...makes it fun to see what's inside and how it works. You can take ownership of what you have in your fork and when something is working well or not well, you can actually understand.

    Shocks being sent out with no instructions is just dumb.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  56. #56
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    ^I actually am starting to like the fact that there is still someone out there who gets pissed off when he has to hold someones hand through the entire process, instead of the customer utilizing the power of the interwebs to answer the basic questions.

    I think his website could do a better job of explaining the basics of suspension, and what all the terms mean. But Avy is a shop that demands a little more out of the customers I guess, and if you have no freaking clue what is going on...maybe Avy isn't the choice for you?

    Not saying its right, but he runs his business as he sees fit, and from the sounds of it he has more than enough work. I would just be curious how much time he spends on the phone/emails talking to people who never spend a single penny with him, but expect 30 minutes of his polite time even if he has 150 other paying customers waiting on his products.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    ^I actually am starting to like the fact that there is still someone out there who gets pissed off when he has to hold someones hand through the entire process, instead of the customer utilizing the power of the interwebs to answer the basic questions.

    I think his website could do a better job of explaining the basics of suspension, and what all the terms mean. But Avy is a shop that demands a little more out of the customers I guess, and if you have no freaking clue what is going on...maybe Avy isn't the choice for you?

    Not saying its right, but he runs his business as he sees fit, and from the sounds of it he has more than enough work. I would just be curious how much time he spends on the phone/emails talking to people who never spend a single penny with him, but expect 30 minutes of his polite time even if he has 150 other paying customers waiting on his products.
    Completely agree with this, and its refreshing in a world where "customer service" comes first, even over quality.

    The one issue I brought up however, was a case where the rider already laid down the cash as was expecting a quality product.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Completely agree with this, and its refreshing in a world where "customer service" comes first, even over quality.

    The one issue I brought up however, was a case where the rider already laid down the cash as was expecting a quality product.
    It's got to be frustrating and difficult. Customer's lie, sometimes they just mis-state what they want or don't know what they want or how to explain it. I think if someone says "oh, I want this thing to be plush, so I'm going to select the 'DH' build, and I'm an 'expert' rider", they may get something way different than they thought, since super-plush (like riding Jr Ts in parking lots) is not how i'd describe the suspension. Smoother the harder/faster you push it through rougher terrain, never harsh, ultimate control and stability, and so on, yes, but just "plush", possibly not, but it depends on that person's definition of "plush" and what they were expecting and how they were intending to ride their bike. Everyone probably thinks they are a pro-DHer when it comes time to fill out the charts, and pros/experts need more stability at high speed and control in super chunky terrain, which may make it more firm during low speed stuff, maybe more than the person was counting on. I think there'll always be a certain number of people that have to be re-valved because of this, no matter how good the literature is, but by the same token, Push and Avalanche should work continuously to minimize it.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  59. #59
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    I'm contemplating about a new shock for my V3 Nomad and I stumbled across this thread.

    Last month, I had to call Craig for some advice regarding if it was possible to swap my existing Avalanche fork cartridge from my 26er forks into 27.5 forks. The conversation definitely could have gone much better:

    1) He said it's probably easier to toss my existing cartridges into the garbage instead of him spending 3 hours of shop time to rebuild them. While this might be true, what happened to supporting a very expensive product? At least PUSH is willing to charge $125 + parts for whatever work is required for the 11 - 6 shock.

    2) I told him I ran a 180mm F36 on my V2 Nomad and he claimed Fox never made a 180mm F36 and it would have made the Nomad handle worse. The first time was educational, but he brought it up 3 - 5 times, almost as if to attack my choice. I repetitively said I'll drop the F36 to 160mm if I were going to run it on my new bike, but he kept going back to the topic. Of course, he brought up he's been in this business for over 20 years, but the way he was talking to me did not sit well with me

    At the end of the day, I did get the information I was after. I just think the delivery could have been done better, much better.

  60. #60
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    I hear what you're saying, and I've had the same experience before. I asked about converting my F36 26" cartridge to fit my F36 29". I was told to sell the fork and get a new cartridge. I did that but looking back, I should have kept it and paid for the refit. Maybe cost is a factor?

    -The cartridge is $400 (plus other add-ons) and the reconfigure is $274.
    -The Woodie/Chubie is $700 and the DHS is $750 I think, and the reconfigure is somewhere around $250.
    -The 11-6 is $1200! I think maybe Push realizes people are investing a big chunk of cash with them, and want to ensure that investment comes with perks like cheaper rebuild and revalve costs.

    I may be completely wrong about all this but interesting how the two companies work differently.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    I'm contemplating about a new shock for my V3 Nomad and I stumbled across this thread.

    Last month, I had to call Craig for some advice regarding if it was possible to swap my existing Avalanche fork cartridge from my 26er forks into 27.5 forks. The conversation definitely could have gone much better:

    1) He said it's probably easier to toss my existing cartridges into the garbage instead of him spending 3 hours of shop time to rebuild them. While this might be true, what happened to supporting a very expensive product? At least PUSH is willing to charge $125 + parts for whatever work is required for the 11 - 6 shock.

    2) I told him I ran a 180mm F36 on my V2 Nomad and he claimed Fox never made a 180mm F36 and it would have made the Nomad handle worse. The first time was educational, but he brought it up 3 - 5 times, almost as if to attack my choice. I repetitively said I'll drop the F36 to 160mm if I were going to run it on my new bike, but he kept going back to the topic. Of course, he brought up he's been in this business for over 20 years, but the way he was talking to me did not sit well with me

    At the end of the day, I did get the information I was after. I just think the delivery could have been done better, much better.
    I had a 45 minute conversation with Craig a few weeks ago.

    I deal with experts lots in the course of my work. I know how their minds/egos generally work, and I knew from past threads from here that Craig can be a handful at times, especially if you don't hand over the floor to him.

    In fairness, according to some posters here, Darren at Push is no better.

    Anyway, I was respectful, very deferential and tried to listen much more than talk. In the end, I got the info I was looking for, and things were fine (although, like your experience, he did repeat a few things to me more than once that were particularly irritating to him about my bike and shock mount design, including that it used 10mm mounting hardware, which precluded me from buying a Woodie or Chubie from him, which used 8mm mounting hardware).

    I view things like this as being worth a little extra effort from my end. The guy is a God in the world of bike suspension. Most pre-eminent experts in any field can be a little eccentric, for lack of a better word. It's part of the price of having access to an incredible product. Doesn't bother me. I was just happy and felt very privileged to be able to talk with the man himself for 45 minutes. The fact that he gave me his time was very gracious, as far as I was concerned.

    But yeah, I can see how he could rub some people the wrong way.

  62. #62
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    Haha yeah... We talked once about how my frame wouldn't work at all with one of his coil shocks. Meanwhile Push, my local suspension expert, and Intense said a coil shock would work really well. Hmmm... What?! The thing that bothered me about this cartridge rebuild thing was when they were first released years ago, they were advertised as being convertible to other forks. But meanwhile he's discouraging this saying it's not cost effective. I guess it's best to just stick with the online ordering and do your best to explain what you want in that text box.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  63. #63
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    Crazy this thread still has some life. To make it easier I just went with a DHX2 with Ti Spring and that works fine. And again, in all fairness to Craig, my "fine tune" is very broad so I'm probably the perfect customer for a more stock shock with slight alterations compared to the deep detail he's able to provide. It's truly a matter of can I deal with this guy if I have an issue or not. I felt as though he'd react exactly like he has on many of the replies above. For me...i made the right choice.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    I'm contemplating about a new shock for my V3 Nomad and I stumbled across this thread.

    Last month, I had to call Craig for some advice regarding if it was possible to swap my existing Avalanche fork cartridge from my 26er forks into 27.5 forks. The conversation definitely could have gone much better:

    1) He said it's probably easier to toss my existing cartridges into the garbage instead of him spending 3 hours of shop time to rebuild them. While this might be true, what happened to supporting a very expensive product? At least PUSH is willing to charge $125 + parts for whatever work is required for the 11 - 6 shock.

    2) I told him I ran a 180mm F36 on my V2 Nomad and he claimed Fox never made a 180mm F36 and it would have made the Nomad handle worse. The first time was educational, but he brought it up 3 - 5 times, almost as if to attack my choice. I repetitively said I'll drop the F36 to 160mm if I were going to run it on my new bike, but he kept going back to the topic. Of course, he brought up he's been in this business for over 20 years, but the way he was talking to me did not sit well with me

    At the end of the day, I did get the information I was after. I just think the delivery could have been done better, much better.
    FWIW, I've been running 11.6 on my v3 Nomad for nearly 4 seasons. Long story, short: that shock works phenomenally well on the Nomad. I can't imagine anything being better. No disrespect to Avy, whose products I haven't tried, but in PUSH I trust.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    I'm contemplating about a new shock for my V3 Nomad and I stumbled across this thread.

    Last month, I had to call Craig for some advice regarding if it was possible to swap my existing Avalanche fork cartridge from my 26er forks into 27.5 forks. The conversation definitely could have gone much better:

    1) He said it's probably easier to toss my existing cartridges into the garbage instead of him spending 3 hours of shop time to rebuild them. While this might be true, what happened to supporting a very expensive product? At least PUSH is willing to charge $125 + parts for whatever work is required for the 11 - 6 shock.

    2) I told him I ran a 180mm F36 on my V2 Nomad and he claimed Fox never made a 180mm F36 and it would have made the Nomad handle worse. The first time was educational, but he brought it up 3 - 5 times, almost as if to attack my choice. I repetitively said I'll drop the F36 to 160mm if I were going to run it on my new bike, but he kept going back to the topic. Of course, he brought up he's been in this business for over 20 years, but the way he was talking to me did not sit well with me

    At the end of the day, I did get the information I was after. I just think the delivery could have been done better, much better.
    I would just like to clarify that we can rebuild/service our cartridge for $89. But in order to switch a cartridge from one fork to another it will need to be reconfigured with different parts such as a different fork cap, different length cartridge rod, different cartridge tube(for travel change), different adaptor for the lowers to mount the cartridge and possibly a different ABS system if the option is retained. As you can see this is essentially is a completely new cartridge and with parts and labor, it can add up to $275. This is not the same as rebuilding a shock with wear parts.

  66. #66
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    I'd like to make it clear that I'm very happy with Craig's products. I have 4 forks with his cartridges, a tuned RP23, and a Woodie on my DH bike. That is why I'm considering another Woodie for my Nomad.

    BUT, since PUSH heavily developed the 11-6 on the V3 Nomad frame, I have to give it some serious consideration. The good news is I just bought a 11-6 for my 5010 (yet to be finished), so I'll be able to evaluate my options after some seat time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    I hear what you're saying, and I've had the same experience before. I asked about converting my F36 26" cartridge to fit my F36 29". I was told to sell the fork and get a new cartridge. I did that but looking back, I should have kept it and paid for the refit. Maybe cost is a factor?

    -The cartridge is $400 (plus other add-ons) and the reconfigure is $274.
    -The Woodie/Chubie is $700 and the DHS is $750 I think, and the reconfigure is somewhere around $250.
    -The 11-6 is $1200! I think maybe Push realizes people are investing a big chunk of cash with them, and want to ensure that investment comes with perks like cheaper rebuild and revalve costs.

    I may be completely wrong about all this but interesting how the two companies work differently.
    Craig did mention there are some new parts to the cartridge, but if what I got can work as well in another fork, I'd happy pay the service fee to swap it over. I mean $500 still isn't cheap and I'd want it to get as much life out of it as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I had a 45 minute conversation with Craig a few weeks ago.

    I deal with experts lots in the course of my work. I know how their minds/egos generally work, and I knew from past threads from here that Craig can be a handful at times, especially if you don't hand over the floor to him.

    In fairness, according to some posters here, Darren at Push is no better.

    Anyway, I was respectful, very deferential and tried to listen much more than talk. In the end, I got the info I was looking for, and things were fine (although, like your experience, he did repeat a few things to me more than once that were particularly irritating to him about my bike and shock mount design, including that it used 10mm mounting hardware, which precluded me from buying a Woodie or Chubie from him, which used 8mm mounting hardware).

    I view things like this as being worth a little extra effort from my end. The guy is a God in the world of bike suspension. Most pre-eminent experts in any field can be a little eccentric, for lack of a better word. It's part of the price of having access to an incredible product. Doesn't bother me. I was just happy and felt very privileged to be able to talk with the man himself for 45 minutes. The fact that he gave me his time was very gracious, as far as I was concerned.

    But yeah, I can see how he could rub some people the wrong way.
    I work in consulting and I totally understand where you are coming from. Craig is a heck lot more accessible than Darren and I remain a big fan of his products.

    I just felt a little constructive feedback might be helpful. Most experts are not built to listen, but I guess it won't hurt.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    FWIW, I've been running 11.6 on my v3 Nomad for nearly 4 seasons. Long story, short: that shock works phenomenally well on the Nomad. I can't imagine anything being better. No disrespect to Avy, whose products I haven't tried, but in PUSH I trust.
    Glad to hear! The feedback on the 11-6 thread is also glowing, which makes the decision so hard. I have a Fox RC4 sitting around, so my options are:

    - Stick with my CCDB coil
    - Send the RC4 for Avy tune
    - Buy a Woodie
    - Buy a 11-6


    Quote Originally Posted by crseekins View Post
    I would just like to clarify that we can rebuild/service our cartridge for $89. But in order to switch a cartridge from one fork to another it will need to be reconfigured with different parts such as a different fork cap, different length cartridge rod, different cartridge tube(for travel change), different adaptor for the lowers to mount the cartridge and possibly a different ABS system if the option is retained. As you can see this is essentially is a completely new cartridge and with parts and labor, it can add up to $275. This is not the same as rebuilding a shock with wear parts.
    Craig, thanks for the update. I think $275 to reconfigure the cartridge for another fork is still good value for what you get and I'd be happy to pay for it all day long.

  67. #67
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    Macming,

    If you're RC4 is the smaller shaft version that came out later, I'd try that first. I think it's about $250 for the tune IIRC with the bottom out bumper, etc. Craig tuned mine for my old N3, and it was absolutely incredible what it did to that rear end.

    I've not ridden an 11-6 for various reasons, but I no way I can see that worth being $800 or 900 more than trying that RC4 tune from Craig first.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I had a 45 minute conversation with Craig a few weeks ago.

    I deal with experts lots in the course of my work. I know how their minds/egos generally work, and I knew from past threads from here that Craig can be a handful at times, especially if you don't hand over the floor to him.

    In fairness, according to some posters here, Darren at Push is no better.

    Anyway, I was respectful, very deferential and tried to listen much more than talk. In the end, I got the info I was looking for, and things were fine (although, like your experience, he did repeat a few things to me more than once that were particularly irritating to him about my bike and shock mount design, including that it used 10mm mounting hardware, which precluded me from buying a Woodie or Chubie from him, which used 8mm mounting hardware).

    I view things like this as being worth a little extra effort from my end. The guy is a God in the world of bike suspension. Most pre-eminent experts in any field can be a little eccentric, for lack of a better word. It's part of the price of having access to an incredible product. Doesn't bother me. I was just happy and felt very privileged to be able to talk with the man himself for 45 minutes. The fact that he gave me his time was very gracious, as far as I was concerned.

    But yeah, I can see how he could rub some people the wrong way.
    My impression of Craig was he'll talk about suspension in a way that you can understand, if you give him enough information. I related I knew about tuning auto suspension and he talked mostlyon my level. I'm in between coil sizes and what I needed from the suspension. We came to the best conclusion and I'm very satisfied.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Macming,

    If you're RC4 is the smaller shaft version that came out later, I'd try that first. I think it's about $250 for the tune IIRC with the bottom out bumper, etc. Craig tuned mine for my old N3, and it was absolutely incredible what it did to that rear end.

    I've not ridden an 11-6 for various reasons, but I no way I can see that worth being $800 or 900 more than trying that RC4 tune from Craig first.

    I had an older RC4 that had a Pushed MX tune on my Nomad 1 and that rear shock was just magical.

    I believe my RC4 is probably a 2012 ~ 2014, so I'm curious if it's still worthwhile.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by macming View Post
    I had an older RC4 that had a Pushed MX tune on my Nomad 1 and that rear shock was just magical.

    I believe my RC4 is probably a 2012 ~ 2014, so I'm curious if it's still worthwhile.
    You can google-fu and find out what years had the smaller shaft, I think it was 2014? I think the small shaft ones also did away with the Boost Valve and had Air Assist also, but not 100% on that.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    You can google-fu and find out what years had the smaller shaft, I think it was 2014? I think the small shaft ones also did away with the Boost Valve and had Air Assist also, but not 100% on that.
    I think you are right, Fox swapped the shaft diameter in 2014. If I have to acquire another shock to send it in for tuning, I might be close to the cost of a new Woodie anyhow.

    https://www.ridefox.com/help.php?m=bike&id=192

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    My MX-tuned DHX is almost ready after needing some valving fine-tuning. I was about to pull the trigger on an 11-6 but I've read (and heard from some people) they barely switch between the two tunes; they leave it in descend mode most of the time because it works for most types of riding. I guess it depends on how well your frame pedals. Hearing that makes me want to hang on to my little Push'd shock a little bit more. Although, if I were to get rid of my DH bike and go for a long travel enduro bike like the new Uzzi, the 11-6 would be perfect.

    I'm also hoping my Fox 36's problems are due to the lousy air spring and not the Push'd RC2 damper. I'm contemplating the MRP kit or the Push ACS3 kit.

    As for Avalanche, that Float X upgrade is tempting even though I've decided I didn't like air springs. But after finding a used one, adding the better Vorsprung air can and then tune, I'm in the price realm of a Chubie.
    Last edited by Christopher Robin; 09-26-2017 at 06:50 AM.
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    No experience with Push, but I sure am digging my front and rear Avy stuff.

    If it matters to you my ShockWiz also really likes my Avy tunes as well as long as I'm in 'Playful' riding mode.

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    Riding in the pacNW this week at a Tiger, Duthie, B-ham and others. The front and rear Avy suspension makes me feel like a hero. I remember what it was like to encounter bumps and have the fork/shock blow through through the travel, but that's not how this stuff rides....
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    My MX-tuned DHX is almost ready after needing some valving fine-tuning. I was about to pull the trigger on an 11-6 but I've read (and heard from some people) they barely switch between the two tunes; they leave it in descend mode most of the time because it works for most types of riding. I guess it depends on how well your frame pedals. Hearing that makes me want to hang on to my little Push'd shock a little bit more. Although, if I were to get rid of my DH bike and go for a long travel enduro bike like the new Uzzi, the 11-6 would be perfect.
    I have a DH/Trail mode and a Climb/Jump mode.

    When Im at the bike park I definintely notice a difference. I use the switch a lot. When I know we are doing jumps, it goes to the jump mode, and everything else its DH mode, I feel a difference if its not in the right one and that is why I appreciate my 11/6 a lot. I do however want to try Avy in the future and think I will on my next bike! (And I have 11/6 on a Nomad and on my Yeti SB5, which I don't use the switch much so i am not fully benefiting from. Would probably make sense to take off the Sb5 and just use the AVy or a custom Float X)

  76. #76
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    Does Craig provide any custom valving on one of his shocks? It's definitely pretty good, but both myself and shockwiz find it a little firm on high-speed compression.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Does Craig provide any custom valving on one of his shocks? It's definitely pretty good, but both myself and shockwiz find it a little firm on high-speed compression.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
    Yes, but is it a retuned,or one of his? On his you can adjust it.

  78. #78
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    It's an avalanche tuned Fox X2.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    It's an avalanche tuned Fox X2.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
    I'd call him. Retune isn't free.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Does Craig provide any custom valving on one of his shocks? It's definitely pretty good, but both myself and shockwiz find it a little firm on high-speed compression.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
    What are you trying to accomplish, what are you feeling? One overall thing I notice with the Avalanche stuff is that the low speed and high speed are tied together and the shocks are intended to be ran with a decent amount of low speed. Not enough low speed actually makes it harsher for me in rough terrain, because it doesn't activate the high speed circuit as easily when you are running the low speed wide open. Oil is going to take the path of least resistance, so it's designed to be run with a certain amount of support, unless it's re-tuned. Again, in my experience with these shocks (Chubbie, DHS, Monarch+ and RC4), they will run less high speed damping than your stock shocks, so when you push them through real hard rough terrain, they keep working and the bike doesn't buck you. Without mid-valves, additional circuits and a lot more complexity, they might seem like they ride a bit more "firm" at slow riding speeds over stuff, nowhere near the same uncontrolled bouncing up and down, but that tends to make them a bit harsher at low speed until you pick up enough speed, because as it gets rougher and you go faster, it feels smoother, which is the opposite of most shocks I've experienced.

    If you need to get it re-tuned, then you need that, no argument there. Just make sure your expectations are correct. I think "DH racer" damping is pretty firm, probably a little too firm for many people, because it intents charging down the mountain at high speed, which is going to exaggerate the effects I was describing above, but that may be counter-intuitive for some people as far as the requested tune...

    If you have an avy tuned shock, it IS custom tuned, unless you bought it second hand, then it's tuned for someone else/something else.

    The amount of stability in his products blows me away. I can drop my bike from about 2 feet and it just stops when it hits the ground, doesn't bounce up, so you'd think it'd pack up like crazy on the trail, but nope, and like I said, the faster you go, the better it feels and works. Saved my a$$ just on the last ride, when I thought i'd take a different line, but went over the jump/bump before I realized it, kind of shooting me up and off the trail and over a log, where the front end actually absorbed the impact and didn't buck me, as I was wildly out of control but the stability of the fork let me slow down once my feet found their place on the pedals again.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  81. #81
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    Good info.

    When I first installed my Avy suspension F & R it felt very spiky, like HSC was just too stiff at both ends.

    I am still improving in pretty large strides as a rider so this has an effect too. I wasn't doing drops any higher than say 6" when I started down this suspension path, and I hit a 6' the other day to flat for instance. That's about 5 months of improvement (we take summers mostly off here in TX)

    I get a bit lost when turning knobs, but I can tell when it's working well, I just struggle to get there. I bought a Shockwiz and quite honestly have found it to be an invaluable tool for me to dial in my bike. The forks didn't feel great when I got them back from Craig, I actually missed the forks being stock. But after Shockwiz had me turn a couple of knobs (less LSC, more LSR) I can say that the forks feel amazing. As in I never think about them. And on my primary trail where I ride my best, I get perfect scores out of Shockwiz too.

    It's important to note that Shockwiz offers a few different tuning 'types' and you will never make SW happy going for the 'efficiency' ride style on Avy tunes. Craig just doesn't tune them that way and that makes sense. Go for the Playful style (for sure is softer with less platform) howver and your scores begin to get in line.

    The Shock from Craig was MUCH better than a stock (not OEM, stock from Fox) X2 was on my Yeti. Instantly a big improvement, however it wasn't ideal and I found it quite spiky on harsh hits. SW, and my instinct told me to keep backing out Compression but it really doesn't make much difference after 2-3 clicks from standard.

    I have had good results adding in the RWC roller bearing shock kit. It didn't alter how much air I needed to set sag. It didn't alter my needed positions on my clickers on the rear shock. But it did allow the shock to move notably faster on sharp impacts and return easier. I thought this would register on the SW and want me to add HSC or something but I couldn't notice any changes. However I'm still a fair bit off on SW and can't really get there with my knobs. That said, I really like how the shock feels now. So maybe it's time to quit chasing ideal SW settings?

    So I might decide very soon that I have gotten both ends close to ideal and maybe sell off the SW. It has been a very useful tuning tool for me but maybe I have gotten all I can out of using it?

  82. #82
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    I'll second what Jayem is saying. Think of LSC as an assistant to keeping you higher in travel, but also soaking up big hits. Think of the HSC as a blow off for LSC when flying through rocks and roots. Not enough LSC. Not enough spring, or too much rebound if I forgot to turn ithe back from a muddy day. Will make it fell harsher.
    Last edited by Cerberus75; 10-14-2017 at 09:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pmrmusic26 View Post
    I tend to think Craig is bi-polar. I've had several conversations with the guy (good and bad) and have purchased their products. The second you questions something about their products in an open discussion or if you have a slight confusion, he's goes off on you immediately with no humility. He's an Engineer...he should have a sales rep.

    I've been somewhat satisfied with my purchases from him. To be completely honest, if someone else was making an open bath damper equally as good as AVA....I would rather spend my money their. Until, that option exist....my cash will go to AVA.
    Hmmm, bipolar attitude towards a guy that resurrects a 4 year old thread to talk down about a guy? I can't imagine what would set him off about such a person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eshew View Post
    Hmmm, bipolar attitude towards a guy that resurrects a 4 year old thread to talk down about a guy? I can't imagine what would set him off about such a person.
    Completely missed that this was 4 years old thread haha....I was looking around for reviews on rear shocks. Woodie, EXT, Push, etc.

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