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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    I'm always interested in what everyone takes out of a presentation like this, there is always some confirmation bias no matter how its diaplayed.

    Even though the potential damping force was really high, the steps between clicks aren't even so 90% of people run their grip2 forks somewhere closer to that bottom line which isn't firm at all
    It is still interesting that they claim to have gone to the VVC to enable a wide tuning range without a physical revalve yet then they go on to cripple it by limiting its range. That part is a bit odd. If you can use the new design to get the same if not more range without the so called harshness from preloading the stack then why not do so?

    Iím actually a bit curious to see what happens when we get a 2021 36/38 vs a 2021 Lyrik since before the 36 always had the more supportive title and stayed up through rough stuff, which I believe would have been from itís firmer HSC that it always had over the charger 2.1. Now with such a massive reduction in HSC where do the two line up against each other?

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlxah View Post
    Steve from Vorsprung posted a video on the 38 this morning including a full tear down and some dyno plots comparing it to the original GRIP2 and older RC2 dampers. Definitely worth checking out if you're interested in this kind of stuff or considering an upgrade.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS-VzI2JbrI
    Another great video from Steve.

    Agree totally with the comments about the bushings, the steerer socket depth and the damping range. I think Fox have run a soft base tune because their bushings are soo tight.

    I don't know how VVC got out the door with so little HSC. It also appears to not have the fine assembly adjustment than the rebound VVC has. Maybe stacking 3-4 leaf springs in it will help.
    Either way there's some work for tuners in these new forks.

    It'll be interesting to see how the forks and bushings last with that groove right up the back. It's removed the continuous support for roundness than normal bushings have. If the fork is stressed those parts will struggle to stay round. This may be where most of the 400g excess weight went.
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  3. #203
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    I wonder if you could just lap down the flat side of the ramped VVC collar to free up a little more stack space.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    It is still interesting that they claim to have gone to the VVC to enable a wide tuning range without a physical revalve yet then they go on to cripple it by limiting its range. That part is a bit odd. If you can use the new design to get the same if not more range without the so called harshness from preloading the stack then why not do so?
    I can only assume this is what happens when you have your marketers, product managers and engineers all having different goals but combining to launch a product together. They want a technically "advanced", marketable product more than something that actually works really well

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Hill View Post
    Iím actually a bit curious to see what happens when we get a 2021 36/38 vs a 2021 Lyrik since before the 36 always had the more supportive title and stayed up through rough stuff, which I believe would have been from itís firmer HSC that it always had over the charger 2.1. Now with such a massive reduction in HSC where do the two line up against each other?
    The 19/20 Grip 2 didn't really have a firm "base tune" since it was entirely dependent on how much preload was on the system. The shims aren't clamped if you take the adjsuter away like in RC2 (from either company). In the softest setting it has less compression damping than just about anything out there.

    Most of the "support" people feel is entirely from air spring design and friction. For that reason I think Rockshox will be perceived as the more supportive fork this year

    Quote Originally Posted by dlxah View Post
    I wonder if you could just lap down the flat side of the ramped VVC collar to free up a little more stack space.
    I wouldn't get too far ahead just yet, hopefully its just a case of changing spacer shims in conjunction with the bending shims
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  5. #205
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    The weird steerer tube issue that Steve showed in his video is real. Mine is a little off. Not as much, but not 100% centered either.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  6. #206
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    2020 Fox 38

    Another great video from Steve, always with the same pragmatic/no-BS approach. Nice

    To all the tuners out there ... you know what to do

    Still laughing about that damping curve

    Can someone overlay the C2.1 on top of it just to get an idea?



    It seems theyíve exhausted all the tricks/improvements to keep the SC chassis work OK at 170/180mm! Time to think about something else for the future.

    Itís an interesting fork with a lot of improvements over the previous generations but at $1200 and $1450 in EU it will probably need to get tuned to get the most out of it and/or overcome flaws ... thatís hard to swallow especially when you can get itís main competitor for almost half the price!

    Nonetheless, it's still interesting to see them push the boundaries.
    Last edited by digev; 05-06-2020 at 10:13 AM.

  7. #207
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    2020 Fox 38-fox-suspension-fork-2021-275-float-38-f-s-180-grip2-factory-boost-shiny-black-15x110-mm-tapered-.jpg

  8. #208
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    Mine came in at 5.1lbs vs my Fox 36 (with Push ACS3) at 5.2lbs. Although I forgot to include the axle when I weighed the 38.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

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    I still have a 2006 36.
    ~2450gr (sounds familiar?)
    1 1/8" steerer, at the bottom the walls are like 5mm thick. Never creaked, never felt flexy for sure. The stanchions are also slightly thicker than current 36s.
    To put the air spring in a floating cylinder it's not necessary to increase stanchion and leg diameter: the marzocchi 350 with 35mm did it. Another alternative is to use a floating lower seal head (I use this on my 36) although much more complicated to manifacture, but it has the benefit of not requiring to decrease the piston diameter.

    oh, the 15mm axle never looked sillier.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Can someone overlay the C2.1 on top of it just to get an idea?
    Itís about 120N at 1m/s
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    Quote Originally Posted by digev View Post
    Good to know. 200mm Boxxer weighs 130 grams more btw.

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  13. #213
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    2020 Fox 38

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Itís about 120N at 1m/s
    Thanks!

    So to recap

    Maximum level of compression damping @ 1m/s

    2020 Grip 2 - Gen 1: ~450N
    2021 Grip 2 - Gen 2: ~80N
    2020 C2.1: ~120N
    2019 HC97: ??

    Correct? Whatís the minimum amount of damping for the C2.1 please? ~40N @ 1m/s like the Grip 2 (both gen)

    The range between the min/max on the 2020 Grip2 is huge compared to the 2021 Grip2.


  14. #214
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    Yup 40N is about right

    Although it pays to realise most people don't know what they "need" as far as damping goes so I hope they don't look in to the dampers that can make more force and think they are "too hard". They are not!
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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Yup 40N is about right


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Although it pays to realise most people don't know what they "need" as far as damping goes so I hope they don't look in to the dampers that can make more force and think they are "too hard". They are not!
    Fair point!

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by romphaia View Post

    Another alternative is to use a floating lower seal head (I use this on my 36) although much more complicated to manufacture, but it has the benefit of not requiring to decrease the piston diameter.
    Was that a standard thing for the early 36s?
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    Yup 40N is about right

    Although it pays to realise most people don't know what they "need" as far as damping goes so I hope they don't look in to the dampers that can make more force and think they are "too hard". They are not!
    I have my HSC cranked fully closed and LSC about 5 clicks out (out of 16 clicks). Lol.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    I have my HSC cranked fully closed and LSC about 5 clicks out (out of 16 clicks). Lol.
    On a Lyrik RC2? That's not really that unreasonable considering the high speed damping is creates. Although it might be a bit firm at lower speeds but thats the compromise of rc2
    www.thesuspensionlab.nz
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  19. #219
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    3rd ride on a new 38 Grip2 this morning. Out of curiosity I did some bracketing with the compression damping. 190lbs expert-level rider running 93PSI. Subjective I realize but I found that there was a very clear different between HSC/LSC fully open and fully closed, and that with both closed the fork was much stiffer than I wanted. Not as stiff as the 36 I was on previously certainly; that fork felt locked out with compression closed, this one just feels very damped.

    For my riding (steep natural trails with lots of slippery roots) I couldn't envision wanting more compression damping than is available. Maybe someone riding big hits and jumps would find this to be the case.

    Things are currently wet and quite slippery here, and I've been happy with +2 HSC and +4 LSC. Despite very light compression damping and running airspring pressures lower than Fox recommends I find the fork stays high in its travel and I rarely use the last ~20mm of travel even when hitting sizable drops. Have not yet opened the airspring up so not sure how many volume spacers are in it from the factory.

    TL;DR: Compression damping and support seem A-OK to me.

  20. #220
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    The best fork made by fox is the new Marz Z1 coil. Basic grip damper, 180mm, + an extra half pound to make it stiffer. It sticks to the ground through high speed rock sections like glue. $750. Best deal going IMO.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC View Post
    The best fork made by fox is the new Marz Z1 coil. Basic grip damper, 180mm, + an extra half pound to make it stiffer. It sticks to the ground through high speed rock sections like glue. $750. Best deal going IMO.
    One unit came yesterday and comparison with a boxxer c2, the lower leg without wheel/axle, stiff is not the word.

  22. #222
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    38 Smashpot fitment coming soon...

    Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_5WD9LH...=129vsv77fau36

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    On a Lyrik RC2? That's not really that unreasonable considering the high speed damping is creates. Although it might be a bit firm at lower speeds but thats the compromise of rc2
    No on my Fox 38 Factory.
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  24. #224
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    Regarding the coil conversion, I don't know if I want to add any more weight on this fork. Right now mine weighs the same as my Fox 36 with Push ACS3. Fox 38 was 5.1lbs and Fox 36 was 5.2lbs.

    While it'll be neat to see Vorsprung's coil system, I want to see what they can do with the damper (and apparently they're working on something to address that weird compression valving).

    I'm also wondering when Fox is gonna start selling their different length air shafts and new bolt on fender.

  25. #225
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    Review for the new 38 is scarce, how does the new 38 compares to old 36 Grip2? I sold my Grip 2 and bought a Lyrik Ultimate now if the 38 is as smooth as the Lyrik then might sell my Lyrik.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrick07 View Post
    Review for the new 38 is scarce, how does the new 38 compares to old 36 Grip2? I sold my Grip 2 and bought a Lyrik Ultimate now if the 38 is as smooth as the Lyrik then might sell my Lyrik.
    I just got one on my Enduro. First ride felt really promising. Need to drop my bars a 5mm spacer because the increased A2C length, but Iím sure that was discussed in the previous 200+ posts. Also need to learn how to tune the rebound again, as I hadnít touched my rebound adjustment on my 36 in over a year Iíd bet. But it is definitely more supple off the top, and I think I can feel the weight increase, though that may just be in my head. Will update after a few more rides.

  27. #227
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    Just bolted up a new 38 Grip2. The dyno plots here confirmed what I felt by sweeping the adjusters - a robust highly-adjustable compression damper that doesn't do much of anything. Full open to full closed yields almost no difference at all. No pressure build with closed bleeds, so that means there's no real sealing pressure with the high speed stack either, or there's a ton of bypass elsewhere.

    I would be very curious to see if this little leaf spring gizmo has any consistency from one unit to the next at production levels. I'm guessing probably none. If anyone has 10 different forks sitting around and wants to characterize them all, that could be interesting.

    I see some aftermarket tuners being made quite profitable from these forks.

  28. #228
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    I guess they have similar problem like previous grip2 has too many compression clicks. Here some 0,1mm make huge difference with wobbly leaf giving no damping change?

  29. #229
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    Hi all, currently riding a Fox 38, coming off my Push ACS3 coiled Lyrik. Just received the Fox mudguard for the Fox38, and it seems that I need to remove the 2 bleeder valve to fit the fork mudguard. May I know if is as simple as removing the bleeders to fit the mudguard or I need to do other things first before removing the bleeders?
    Thanks.

  30. #230
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    Shouldn't need to do anything fancy. Bleed them (in case there's some pressure build up) and clean around them. But shouldn't be a need to depressurize the air spring or anything.

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    Ok, thanks. I will give it a try.

  32. #232
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    Super easy. Just thread the bleeders out. You will see a little plastic spacer and the o-ring on the backside of the bleeder. That spacer takes up the space the fender will take when you don't have a fender. You need to remove those spacers. Push the bleeders through the fender mounts, thread back in, and good to go!

  33. #233
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    This fork is awesome for clydes that ride chunky trails. Even with JRA, thereís less deflection.


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  34. #234
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    Ok how are we getting along with these things now in the real world? The reviews I've read online are either too vague or just gushing so many positives it reeks of paid advertising and ass kissing.

    I sold my 36 last night for good money, so it's down to the Zeb or 38. You cant get a Zeb here in Aus easily unfortunately and I'll be waiting till late october for the travel and offset I am chasing in the ultimate.

    However I can get a 38 relatively quickly (2 weeks) and I'm borrowing a buddy's 36's to get me through till then.

    It will be going on a ebike, so the extra stiffness is the key. I notice the Zeb is only 2% stiffer on fore/aft compliance which is where I feel the ebikes need the stiffness?

    I'm 220lb, ride a lot of chunky natural trails and my style has been labelled "human cannonball" if that helps lol

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by brash View Post
    Ok how are we getting along with these things now in the real world? The reviews I've read online are either too vague or just gushing so many positives it reeks of paid advertising and ass kissing.

    I sold my 36 last night for good money, so it's down to the Zeb or 38. You cant get a Zeb here in Aus easily unfortunately and I'll be waiting till late october for the travel and offset I am chasing in the ultimate.

    However I can get a 38 relatively quickly (2 weeks) and I'm borrowing a buddy's 36's to get me through till then.

    It will be going on a ebike, so the extra stiffness is the key. I notice the Zeb is only 2% stiffer on fore/aft compliance which is where I feel the ebikes need the stiffness?

    I'm 220lb, ride a lot of chunky natural trails and my style has been labelled "human cannonball" if that helps lol
    Why would you not go for a Fox 40?
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  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why would you not go for a Fox 40?
    I want to do barspins obviously.

    I'm going from a 160 36 to possibly a 170 38, This is going to 16mm more (depending on tolerances, could be 21mm) axle to crown. With a 140mm headtube the stack height is kind of crazy high. I'll have to have my stem literally slammed onto the headtube to maintain some resemblance of roomy reach.

    It's my opinion also, that dual crowns on ebikes looks so totally squid for some reason.

  37. #237
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    If I remember correctly, the 38 is about 10mm taller than the 36 (both in 160mm), then add your 170mm travel...you're up to about 20mm, give or take a couple mm. I ended up going from a 40mm stem to 50mm to make things feel normal.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by brash View Post
    I want to do barspins obviously.

    I'm going from a 160 36 to possibly a 170 38, This is going to 16mm more (depending on tolerances, could be 21mm) axle to crown. With a 140mm headtube the stack height is kind of crazy high. I'll have to have my stem literally slammed onto the headtube to maintain some resemblance of roomy reach.

    It's my opinion also, that dual crowns on ebikes looks so totally squid for some reason.
    Ok, so you don't really care about the stiffness then. A 40 will be same axle to crown, so I'm not sure what the point really is.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by brash View Post
    Ok how are we getting along with these things now in the real world? The reviews I've read online are either too vague or just gushing so many positives it reeks of paid advertising and ass kissing.

    I sold my 36 last night for good money, so it's down to the Zeb or 38. You cant get a Zeb here in Aus easily unfortunately and I'll be waiting till late october for the travel and offset I am chasing in the ultimate.

    However I can get a 38 relatively quickly (2 weeks) and I'm borrowing a buddy's 36's to get me through till then.

    It will be going on a ebike, so the extra stiffness is the key. I notice the Zeb is only 2% stiffer on fore/aft compliance which is where I feel the ebikes need the stiffness?

    I'm 220lb, ride a lot of chunky natural trails and my style has been labelled "human cannonball" if that helps lol
    Mine is on a Switchblade. Iím going to sell my 36. If I was lighter I wouldnít get a 38 with my level of skill. I also wouldnít use one on less techy trails. I didnít consider getting a dual crown fork. If I had more skills I would be on a longer travel 29er with a DC fork.

    Damping is nice. Not quite Avalanche nice but close. Fox annoys me with their set up charts. Big or aggressive riders should add a spacer or two.

    World Wide Cyclery did a comparison review.

    I have pressed the air relief valves multiple times with no release of air except once and I believe it did make a difference on a long down.

    I donít expect to see a lot of these on the trails but this Clyde really likes his.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    Mine is on a Switchblade. Iím going to sell my 36. If I was lighter I wouldnít get a 38 with my level of skill. I also wouldnít use one on less techy trails. I didnít consider getting a dual crown fork. If I had more skills I would be on a longer travel 29er with a DC fork.

    Damping is nice. Not quite Avalanche nice but close. Fox annoys me with their set up charts. Big or aggressive riders should add a spacer or two.

    World Wide Cyclery did a comparison review.

    I have pressed the air relief valves multiple times with no release of air except once and I believe it did make a difference on a long down.

    I donít expect to see a lot of these on the trails but this Clyde really likes his.
    Thanks for that, my DH bike with 40's has the air valves and it doesn't ever hiss too. Probably because I ride that bike once every 6 months now

    I watched that review, and again... he didn't want to bite the hand that feeds him it seems. That been said, Jeff probably weighs half of me by looking at him so in the end his opinion probably wouldn't resonate with me.

    My enduro bike has a smashpotted 36, if I can get that sort of small bump and midstroke with a burlier/stiffer chassis I'll be in heaven.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by brash View Post
    Thanks for that, my DH bike with 40's has the air valves and it doesn't ever hiss too. Probably because I ride that bike once every 6 months now

    I watched that review, and again... he didn't want to bite the hand that feeds him it seems. That been said, Jeff probably weighs half of me by looking at him so in the end his opinion probably wouldn't resonate with me.

    My enduro bike has a smashpotted 36, if I can get that sort of small bump and midstroke with a burlier/stiffer chassis I'll be in heaven.
    Get a mezzer then. It ticks all those boxes. I know it got a bum rap from pb due to an early batch of bad lowers but thats sorted and the ride is stellar. Iíve had a dialed 36 w ACS coil and the mezzer is better. Lighter, stiffer, better mid stroke and coil like small bump. The total package IMO. No time on a 38 but better than every other fox Iíve owned, including custom tunes, runt and coil.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimarin View Post
    Get a mezzer then. It ticks all those boxes. I know it got a bum rap from pb due to an early batch of bad lowers but thats sorted and the ride is stellar. Iíve had a dialed 36 w ACS coil and the mezzer is better. Lighter, stiffer, better mid stroke and coil like small bump. The total package IMO. No time on a 38 but better than every other fox Iíve owned, including custom tunes, runt and coil.
    Completely agree. That is my experience also.

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    So these things are rare as hens teeth in Aus with Covid etc.

    I got my hands on a set of 29'er 44mm offset 180mm's but Need to drop to 170mm. I've swapped 36 air shafts before but this is the floating "tube in tube" type.

    Any special tricks of the traded to swapping the air spring over? Anyone done one yet?

  44. #244
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    I was in the same boat. I just got the 180mm just because that's all I could find.

    The swap is easy. When you let the air out, go slow so the air spring doesn't suck down. Once you have the lowers off, you remove the circlip holding the air spring in the fork tube, and then start pulling gently. It'll pop out. Grease up the new spring and shove it in there. Circlip back on. Good to go.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    I was in the same boat. I just got the 180mm just because that's all I could find.

    The swap is easy. When you let the air out, go slow so the air spring doesn't suck down. Once you have the lowers off, you remove the circlip holding the air spring in the fork tube, and then start pulling gently. It'll pop out. Grease up the new spring and shove it in there. Circlip back on. Good to go.

    Thanks for that. I was having some beers up the local bike shop today and pretty much exactly what you said. Very easy. Just a bit out of the ordinary from the usual air spring install. Iíll give it a go.

  46. #246
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    What's your verdict between the Mezzer and Fox 38?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brash View Post
    Thanks for that. I was having some beers up the local bike shop today and pretty much exactly what you said. Very easy. Just a bit out of the ordinary from the usual air spring install. Iíll give it a go.
    Once tube is removed, you also need soft jaws and heat to hold the air shaft and remove the foot bolt. With foot bolt removed, You then push airshaft up through the seal head (instead of pulling out like in a normal air spring system.) Then install new air shaft and reinstall footbolt.

    Was helping a friend rebuild his 38 and ran into this and then confirmed in manual. A bit more involved than a normal air spring unfortunately.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

  48. #248
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    Got it all done in 20 mins, like you said a bit more involved but not too hard.

    Fork is good, definately notice the stiffness.

    My LSC clicks/detents do not work however, this is really annoying for a $2k fork.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by croakies View Post
    Once tube is removed, you also need soft jaws and heat to hold the air shaft and remove the foot bolt. With foot bolt removed, You then push airshaft up through the seal head (instead of pulling out like in a normal air spring system.) Then install new air shaft and reinstall footbolt.

    Was helping a friend rebuild his 38 and ran into this and then confirmed in manual. A bit more involved than a normal air spring unfortunately.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    That's interesting you need to remove the footnut etc. My 38 came as a 160mm, and I ordered the 170mm air shaft kit from my dealer. I've not installed it yet, but just went and looked, it's all one complete unit, new air shaft, tube, etc. Looks like just plug and play once the old one is removed. Wonder if there are two types of air shaft kits?

    The only tricky part is going to be lubing the piston head seal, since you can't access it without removing the footnut. But I'm thinking I can probably put some slick honey on the inside of the tube, and take care of that aspect.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  50. #250
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    Yeah mine had the foot nut as well. I literally just pulled the old one out, pushed in the new one and that was pretty much it.

    All you can do is line the tube with slick honey and cycle it a few times. I also put in a few drops of Fox Gold in the tube.
    Kona Operator CR and Santa Cruz Megatower

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