'05 Marathon XC questions- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    '05 Marathon XC questions

    I recently changed the oil in my fork including the TST cart, I used some 7wt oil from a local shop. The fork feels much smoother and plush yet I think the fork oil weight might be too light cause the fork feels a tad soft and seems to ride lower in it's travel. I put the same amount in the fork that came out cause I liked the feel before the oil change, I tried adding a little bit of oil to the ETA/TAS side and I've also tried more air pressure than I was running before the oil change. I'm also getting a clunking/knocking noise sometimes and the fork just doesn't feel right. It does seem to ramp up nicely though and I'm not getting any bottoming. I have tried less rebound and more rebound to get rid of the knocking noise but it doesn't seem to do anything, kinda feels like the rebound is too fast but the manual says that noise means too much rebound??

    Should I try and change the oil again with some standard 7.5 wt oil? Maybe I didn't get the oil change in the TST cart right, but it locks out and the adj. knob seems to work correctly also.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I recently changed the oil in my fork including the TST cart, I used some 7wt oil from a local shop. The fork feels much smoother and plush yet I think the fork oil weight might be too light cause the fork feels a tad soft and seems to ride lower in it's travel. I put the same amount in the fork that came out cause I liked the feel before the oil change, I tried adding a little bit of oil to the ETA/TAS side and I've also tried more air pressure than I was running before the oil change. I'm also getting a clunking/knocking noise sometimes and the fork just doesn't feel right. It does seem to ramp up nicely though and I'm not getting any bottoming. I have tried less rebound and more rebound to get rid of the knocking noise but it doesn't seem to do anything, kinda feels like the rebound is too fast but the manual says that noise means too much rebound??

    Should I try and change the oil again with some standard 7.5 wt oil? Maybe I didn't get the oil change in the TST cart right, but it locks out and the adj. knob seems to work correctly also.

    Thanks!
    Yeah... it looks like your oil wt is a bit too low. Did you tried crankig up the rebound up to eleven and cranking it down to minus 1? Look at the extremes and see what you get.

    I would change the oil only on the TST. The rest of the oil can be anything as it doesn't really do any damping duties.

    Another things to check are that the ETA spring is tight and that the TAS is correctly tightened to the ETA cartridge. Bikezilla and Jncarpenter told me to check for that when clunking develops in my AM1 (same as a Marathon XC, but different chassis and travel).

    If you have nice ramp up and nice travel use, your oil height is spot on and if the lockout works, your TST is properly bled. The oil used on the TST Semi-bath side and the used on the ETA has no really damping duties, so you can go with heavier/ligther oil there.

    Check first the TAS being tight on the ETA cart... if it doesn't solve the clunk, then change the oil in the TST.

    I used a mix of 50%-50% of Yamalube Fork Oil (Synth-Mineral Oil blend) in 5 and 10wt's.
    It seems to work just fine. The fork is very sensitive to adjustments. Maybe I have a few cc's more on the ETA side, but everything seems fine.

    How noisy is your fork? My AM1 is a bit noisy making swooshing sounds when cycling.... nothing annoying, but my Magura was very silent compared to the Zoke.
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    Thanks Warp, I went ahead and changed the oil in the TST cart and the fork with some Golden Spectro 125/150, I also checked the ETA cart and everything seemed tight and fine. The fork is working correctly and it does feel a bit firmer like it's not using the first half of the travel so easy. I put in around 45-50CC's in the TST side and 135-140CC's in the ETA side, I believe the rec'd amount is 40/135 but since I weigh 200lbs a little bit more is probably fine.

    I'm gonna get out later so I will post how it feels, hopefully the knocking/clunking sound is gone too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Thanks Warp, I went ahead and changed the oil in the TST cart and the fork with some Golden Spectro 125/150, I also checked the ETA cart and everything seemed tight and fine. The fork is working correctly and it does feel a bit firmer like it's not using the first half of the travel so easy. I put in around 45-50CC's in the TST side and 135-140CC's in the ETA side, I believe the rec'd amount is 40/135 but since I weigh 200lbs a little bit more is probably fine.

    I'm gonna get out later so I will post how it feels, hopefully the knocking/clunking sound is gone too.
    Cool!!

    Remember you can use the old method of putting oil by oil height on the TST forks on the ETA side. Anything between 50 and 60mm from top of the crown will do. More like 50 for your weight. To undo the topcap off the ETA simply hold the 12mm flats with a wrench, while you undo the topcap with the 21mm socket.

    In my case, my socket has a bevel and (worst) I got a 12pt one. Needless to say, it's not up to the task, but fortunately, on the AM I could undo the caps with a plain crescent.

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    Well, good news is the fork felt better, felt firmer and wasn't diving as much, bad news is the clunky/knocky noise is still there. It seems to be making the noise at top out or full extension, I tried adjusting the rebound back and forth and the TST adjustment but the noise was still there. It didn't make this noise before the first oil change so not sure what it is, the seals and bushings are fine and the fork has only 9 months riding on it.

    Sugg's????

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Sugg's????
    Increase rebound some to prevent top out?

    Other than that, I can't figure anything out.
    Impressive that the TST would be so sensitive to oil wt.... something to keep in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Increase rebound some to prevent top out?
    Thats what it feels like kinda, like the rebound is too fast, but I changed the setting from 2 clicks out to 10 clicks out from full slow and the noise was still there, I always ran it 5 clicks out before the oil change.

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    Hey Rick, a guy your size should be running a little heavier oil like 10 wt. I run 12 wt. in my 66, and it feels great. Also, I wouldn't fill the fork based on oil volumes, but I'd call up Zoke, and ask them what level below the top caps you need to fill it to. That way you don't run the risk of over filling due to residual oil being left in the legs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chingon
    Hey Rick, a guy your size should be running a little heavier oil like 10 wt. I run 12 wt. in my 66, and it feels great. Also, I wouldn't fill the fork based on oil volumes, but I'd call up Zoke, and ask them what level below the top caps you need to fill it to. That way you don't run the risk of over filling due to residual oil being left in the legs.
    ....I agree with EC on the oil weight. I replaced the oil in mine with 10wt & it helped out alot. However, regarding oil volumes....this is not critical because the damper is closed. As long as you have enough in the ETA side for it to work properly & the fork still maintains full travel, it is fine. Oil volume is what tech recommends these days.


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    The fork feels right after I changed the oil the second time with the Golden Spectro stuff, plus I liked the feel of the fork with the stock oil so I think the 7.5wt is fine for me. It's this clunky noise at top out or the top of the stroke thats bugging me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    The fork feels right after I changed the oil the second time with the Golden Spectro stuff, plus I liked the feel of the fork with the stock oil so I think the 7.5wt is fine for me. It's this clunky noise at top out or the top of the stroke thats bugging me.
    ....X-Post from Turner thread:

    ...the knocking sound is air in the TST cart. Where did you get the proper method for bleeding/ refilling the cart? There are several crucial steps in the process that must be followed exactly.


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    JNC- here's what I used to change the oil in the TST cart, it locks out and seems to work fine but I think your right about the clunking noise coming from the TST cart.

    http://www.windwave.co.uk/documents/...st%20bleed.pdf

    I used the 160mm measurement, should I compress the rod more to get more oil into the bladder before refilling it??

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    JNC- here's what I used to change the oil in the TST cart, it locks out and seems to work fine but I think your right about the clunking noise coming from the TST cart.

    http://www.windwave.co.uk/documents/...st%20bleed.pdf

    I used the 160mm measurement, should I compress the rod more to get more oil into the bladder before refilling it??
    ...to test for air:
    -set the TST to lockout
    -with the fork fully extended, there should be no movement before the fork locks out
    -if the fork compresses a bit before it "catches" & locks out, you have air


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ...to test for air:
    -set the TST to lockout
    -with the fork fully extended, there should be no movement before the fork locks out
    -if the fork compresses a bit before it "catches" & locks out, you have air
    Yup, I have air then cause it is moving just a tad before locking out. I'm pretty sure I'm getting all the air out during refill but maybe some air is getting trapped in the bladder, not sure how to prevent that or get it out before refill??

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Yup, I have air then cause it is moving just a tad before locking out. I'm pretty sure I'm getting all the air out during refill but maybe some air is getting trapped in the bladder, not sure how to prevent that or get it out before refill??
    It'd be cool if Zoke would sell a different TST cap with a bleed port and some oil injection port at the bottom. It'd be easier than the silly method of the rubber band. It'd be like bleeding a brake.

    As the oil can be kept clean, you would simply bleed the TST each now and then and voila! No more tesing with it. It could be even made with the cartridge installed.

    Someone mentioned Zoke uses a heat gun or something in the process, but I don't know what for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    It'd be cool if Zoke would sell a different TST cap with a bleed port and some oil injection port at the bottom. It'd be easier than the silly method of the rubber band. It'd be like bleeding a brake.

    As the oil can be kept clean, you would simply bleed the TST each now and then and voila! No more tesing with it. It could be even made with the cartridge installed.

    Someone mentioned Zoke uses a heat gun or something in the process, but I don't know what for.
    ...no heat gun is used. That is the dopio cart (heat gun used to break the thread lock). It's really not that difficult a process once you've done it a time or two.

    RR: there shouldn't be any air available to get into the bladder if you take your time during the filling process. Cycle the rod constantly & pour a bit of fluid & wait a few seconds...continue to pour a little more, etc. Take your time while filling it & keep cycling the damper. Also wait a minute before you close it up the first time to allow any bubbles a chance to work their way out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ...no heat gun is used. That is the dopio cart (heat gun used to break the thread lock). It's really not that difficult a process once you've done it a time or two.
    Cool, thanks Jn!
    I freaked out seriously when I read about the heat gun!
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    Got it done, AGAIN, was careful to cycle the rod a bunch to get the air out and filled it up slowly, no way any air was in there, did the bladder step, then filled it to the top till it overflowed a tad and carefully installed the CA so no air snuck in. Checked to make sure the rod didn't move after locking it out and put it back together.

    The fork is locking out , BUT, if I lean over the front end and compress real hard the fork will move around an 1/8". Pretty sure it was moving around the same amount before so maybe I didn't get it?? The fork would also make the clunking noise if I bounced the front end on the ground and made it compress slightly, it doesn't seem to be doing it now.

    Guess I need to wait till I ride it again to see, not sure how any air could of gotten in there. Maybe there's a problem with the cart or bladder?

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    I watched Ronney bleed the bladder on my marathon. He used a heat gun on the bladder to assist in removing all possible air from the oil. After seeing the process he went through, even adding a shim under the cartridge cap, I'll probably pass on doing it myself.
    I think the charge is somewhere around $10.00 for that service if the damper cartridge is out of the fork, no brainer for me. Course, I'm fortunate to live in the same comunity as the business......

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    Quote Originally Posted by kneecap
    I watched Ronney bleed the bladder on my marathon. He used a heat gun on the bladder to assist in removing all possible air from the oil. After seeing the process he went through, even adding a shim under the cartridge cap, I'll probably pass on doing it myself.
    I think the charge is somewhere around $10.00 for that service if the damper cartridge is out of the fork, no brainer for me. Course, I'm fortunate to live in the same comunity as the business......
    I hear ya, damn thing is finicky if I haven't gotten it in 3 trys! Hoping I got it this time but I have my doubts, if not I will be sending it in to have it done. Pretty sure I did not leave any air in the cart but my concern is that there is air trapped between the bladder and cart BEFORE I start refilling it, unless all the air is removed from the bladder when the rod is fully extended before you open it up. Seems like air could easily get in the bladder thru the port holes when the cart is opened and emptied.

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    Yep, heat gun.

    Ronnie did it for me a couple months ago (Marthon XC 05) and he did use the heat gun.
    I asked what was that step for and he said that the heat will cause all the air bubbles to come up. Basically hot oil has lower viscosity and lets bubbles up faster.
    Again looking at the whole procedure and considering I'm 40 minutes away from them, I'll never attempt the procedure myself (I already changed oil twice and seals myself).
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    Is this normal for an oil change on the TST equipped forks? I was considering buying one but after reading this it sounds like a maintenance nightmare. Is the TST worth it? My buddies AM1 had the clunk right out of the box and had to be sent back in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    Is this normal for an oil change on the TST equipped forks? I was considering buying one but after reading this it sounds like a maintenance nightmare. Is the TST worth it? My buddies AM1 had the clunk right out of the box and had to be sent back in.
    The TST is very nice IMO, the best compression adjusment I've used, each of the 5 settings from soft to lockout is noticable. The cart is a pain to change the oil for sure but supposedly it doesn't need changing as much as the fork and it is sealed so the fluid should stay cleaner longer. If I could find a local shop that could do the job right and reasonably priced then it would be no big deal, I do like to do as much stuff myself as possible though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    The TST is very nice IMO, the best compression adjusment I've used, each of the 5 settings from soft to lockout is noticable. The cart is a pain to change the oil for sure but supposedly it doesn't need changing as much as the fork and it is sealed so the fluid should stay cleaner longer. If I could find a local shop that could do the job right and reasonably priced then it would be no big deal, I do like to do as much stuff myself as possible though.
    Me too, thats why I'm hesitant on the TST. I wonder if Marzocchi will trickle down the RC2 cartridge from the Z1 light into the marathon or AM series. I would really like to try out that fork but its way too much travel for my Flux. MBA really liked it, then again they love everything, except Schwalbe tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    except Schwalbe tires.
    ... and any thing made by Hutchinson, and Specialized's cable routing.

    But yeah.. they pretty much love everything.

    After hearing this thing on the heat gun, I really hope Marzocchi will come up with a proper bleed system. It ain't rocket science!

    Some one could be making some dough selling some aftermarket TST bleed kit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    After hearing this thing on the heat gun, I really hope Marzocchi will come up with a proper bleed system. It ain't rocket science!
    .
    I think the point of the sealed cartdridge is not to have to do any maintenance, at least for a reasonable life of the for or so.
    I think if you don't mess around with the TST thing when you change oil, nothing should happen. What I did was to cycle the TST several times once I got it out of the forks and that's how some air made it inside the cartdrige IMO.
    The TST servicing is not that complicate after all: all I was sayting is that it's much easier for me to drive to Marzocchi, but if I had to ship the fork and stay without it for a couple weeks I would do it myself.

    ... and yes, I think TST and ETA are the two greatest features ever on a fork.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen_Turtle
    I think the point of the sealed cartdridge is not to have to do any maintenance, at least for a reasonable life of the for or so.
    I think if you don't mess around with the TST thing when you change oil, nothing should happen. What I did was to cycle the TST several times once I got it out of the forks and that's how some air made it inside the cartdrige IMO.
    The TST servicing is not that complicate after all: all I was sayting is that it's much easier for me to drive to Marzocchi, but if I had to ship the fork and stay without it for a couple weeks I would do it myself.

    ... and yes, I think TST and ETA are the two greatest features ever on a fork.
    ZT
    Oh, I do my own fork maintenance (I can't drive to Zoke or get it sent because I'm in Mexico ) and I agree that it ain't rocket science neither to do the oil change on the TST.

    But... if indeed cycling the cart in an air surrounding can make some air to get into the TST, then the TST cart will draw air inside the cartridge even when the cart is inside because the leg is not filled with oil, like the ETA side. This is how many users have found there's air in the TST. As the leg is basically empty, the TST will suck air in. Was the leg filled with oil like the ETA, we wouldn't have this issue.

    Maybe the seal Zoke used there was not good enough. Otherwise, air would not find its way into the cart. No biggie... the cart ain't hard to service anyway.

    I was just saying it should be easier to service. But I'm positive it's still a simple task.

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    I emailed Marzocchi and they said the bladder is not bleed correctly, there's supposedly a video that only dealers have to do it correctly, the instruction sheet I used doesn't say anything about getting the air out of the bladder so there is essentially a whole step that is on this video to get the air out of the bladder that I wasn't doing or knew about. Either way, I ain't messing with it no more and I will find someone to do it.

    BTW Zen Turtle, the fluid in mine was nasty after just 9 months of riding so I think changing the oil occasionally, especially after break in, is a good idea, plus I can see how air could enter the system thru the bladder collars. If any of you guys do an oil change on one and have luck with it then please post, I would like to know if there's an easy method to getting the air out of the bladder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    BTW Zen Turtle, the fluid in mine was nasty after just 9 months of riding so I think changing the oil occasionally, especially after break in, is a good idea, plus I can see how air could enter the system thru the bladder collars. If any of you guys do an oil change on one and have luck with it then please post, I would like to know if there's an easy method to getting the air out of the bladder.
    This is interesting. Mine was pretty clean at the 10mths mark.
    I asked the question on the Italian forum: there are a couple of guys directly from Marz giving support answers. Let's see what Mr. Marzocchi has to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen_Turtle
    This is interesting. Mine was pretty clean at the 10mths mark.
    I asked the question on the Italian forum: there are a couple of guys directly from Marz giving support answers. Let's see what Mr. Marzocchi has to say.
    Can you translate

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Can you translate
    What Domenico says is that the system has to be purged by qualified technicians and may be done at the intervals mentioned on the manual. We can interpret this as a regular maintenance activity (he doesn't answer this directly as asked by Turtle). He states that after the nine months period Turtle mentioned, the oil was supposed to be changed from a while as the oil was worn already.

    He also declares that if you have a play of like one centimeter (3/8"), you should purge the TST.

    He doesn't answer Turtle's questions direclty, regarding about if the problem is recurrent and if marzocchi is doing something to take care of it.

    Edit... turtle described them we're discussing this but we can't seem to get an agreement on the subject. He described his situation and asks if the oil change is a normal maintenance procedure or some extraordinary service. He also describes the problem with the play-before-lockout and if it has to be purged and also if the TST getting air in is a recurrent problem and what is Zoke doing to solve it.

    Maybe Brian Peterson may chime in too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp

    He also declares that if you have a play of like one centimeter (3/8"), you should purge the TST.
    Thanks Warp, mine has less than that and it also doesn't seem to be clunking when I compress the fork slightly, I'm gonna get out for a ride today so I will know then if it's still clunking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Thanks Warp, mine has less than that and it also doesn't seem to be clunking when I compress the fork slightly, I'm gonna get out for a ride today so I will know then if it's still clunking.

    Double R... I know it's not how it has to be done, but....
    Can't you live with the clunk?
    Do you really need the fork Lockout?

    I know it's always good to have everything running the way it should be... but when you can't, maybe the compromise ain't that bad.

    I'm positive my TST may need a purging... but my fork ain't doing weird things and I don't feel like using the CL position... so, it'll be used like that until further advise. The travel is fine, no clunk and the AM to DS positions are all that I need.

    I still have to get used to the ETA feel... the geometry change is awesome! But the fork feels sluggish when the ETA is activated... I guess it's a compromise I need to live with.
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    It's still a clunkin, and no Warp, I can't live with it

    It's annoying and you can feel a slight bit of play kinda at the top of the stroke, I definitely want to get it fixed cause it's enough to bug me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    It's still a clunkin, and no Warp, I can't live with it

    It's annoying and you can feel a slight bit of play kinda at the top of the stroke, I definitely want to get it fixed cause it's enough to bug me.

    Yeah, sounds like it would drive me crazy too... My fork has a little play for the LO to work, but ouside from that, it feels fine; fortunately.

    Keep us posted on how you get it fixed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    What Domenico says is that the system has to be purged by qualified technicians and may be done at the intervals mentioned on the manual. We can interpret this as a regular maintenance activity (he doesn't answer this directly as asked by Turtle). He states that after the nine months period Turtle mentioned, the oil was supposed to be changed from a while as the oil was worn already.

    He also declares that if you have a play of like one centimeter (3/8"), you should purge the TST.

    He doesn't answer Turtle's questions direclty, regarding about if the problem is recurrent and if marzocchi is doing something to take care of it.

    Edit... turtle described them we're discussing this but we can't seem to get an agreement on the subject. He described his situation and asks if the oil change is a normal maintenance procedure or some extraordinary service. He also describes the problem with the play-before-lockout and if it has to be purged and also if the TST getting air in is a recurrent problem and what is Zoke doing to solve it.

    Maybe Brian Peterson may chime in too?
    Grazie Warp! Your knowledge of italian is excellent (I enjoy the same with Spanish/Mexican).
    The user manual calls for a TST oil change every 25hrs of intense use. This sound crazy too mee especially considering it is a non user serviceable part. I asked now again if it is realistic that someone who rides 25 hrs in one month (like I do) would have to send the fork in every month... then I need to buy 2 forks, not one.
    So I'm asking what is the advantage of a sealed cartdrige like TST and asked again if they are planning on doing something to improve this issue.
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  37. #37
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen_Turtle
    Grazie Warp! Your knowledge of italian is excellent (I enjoy the same with Spanish/Mexican).
    The user manual calls for a TST oil change every 25hrs of intense use. This sound crazy too mee especially considering it is a non user serviceable part. I asked now again if it is realistic that someone who rides 25 hrs in one month (like I do) would have to send the fork in every month... then I need to buy 2 forks, not one.
    So I'm asking what is the advantage of a sealed cartdrige like TST and asked again if they are planning on doing something to improve this issue.
    Thanks, Zen... I understand some and can read it... but I can't speak it or write it. Basically, it's because spanish is so similar to italian and to the fact that I work for a half-italian company.

    Yeah... they avoided your questions. It'll be good if they give a straight anwer.

    As I had mentioned, either they go back to an open bath damper or they provide a way of bleeding it like a brake. Just an injection port and a vent one would do. Then, would you need it, just plug in a syringe, bleed the thing and get a cold one in the process.
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