The return of Titanium!!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    The return of Titanium!!


  2. #2
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    Got excited when I got the email from salsa, saw that Timberjack and saw a price and like an excited fan boy I thought it was the entire bike. Just the frame for $2k. Better keep saving my coins. Sweet bike non the less.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    I don't get why there isn't a second bottle cage mount on the timberjack. Or even a third on the down tube.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbnel5on View Post
    I don't get why there isn't a second bottle cage mount on the timberjack. Or even a third on the down tube.
    Looks like there's one on the underside of the down tube near the bottom bracket.
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  5. #5
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    I believe the Timberjack actually has all three. I found this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hbnel5on View Post
    I don't get why there isn't a second bottle cage mount on the timberjack. Or even a third on the down tube.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The return of Titanium!!-salsa-timberjack-ti-titanium_02-1200x800.jpg  

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  6. #6
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    Nice Ti frame.....now if it could fit a 29 x 2.6 tire in the rear, it would be prefect for me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rushman3 View Post
    Nice Ti frame.....now if it could fit a 29 x 2.6 tire in the rear, it would be prefect for me.
    I don't believe they changed anything with the TI frame, that being said, people have been running 29x3 on the regular timberjack, so this is the one for you

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  8. #8
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    Hopefully this will appease the El Mar folks.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by buell View Post
    Hopefully this will appease the El Mar folks.
    I think it's awesome! However, I am still questioning the call to get rid of the El Mar name and to make it's replacement out of aluminum. This is a step back in the right direction!

  10. #10
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    At the end of the article they mention the shops that have them. What good is that, I thought shops "were not allowed" to ship Salsa? Supposed to by local, first hand.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Supposed to by local, first hand.
    I think the point is that they're telling you where you can actually go to find some of these new Ti frames. 'cause unless your local Salsa dealer is on that list, there's no way they're gonna get one for you.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebeat007 View Post
    I believe the Timberjack actually has all three. I found this.
    GOD DAMN IT, THERE GOES MY $$$$ Funk Salsa, quit making cool ship for a year.

  13. #13
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    Love my El Mar and haven't been able to imagine what bike would replace it in my stable in another 5 or so years. But this...I could see this being suitable...

    Dan

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hbnel5on View Post
    I don't get why there isn't a second bottle cage mount on the timberjack. Or even a third on the down tube.
    There are 3
    My name is George. Iím unemployed and I live with my parents.
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  15. #15
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    I saw the photo with only one cage mount too. Good to see it actually has three...

  16. #16
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    Bottle mounts probably depends on frame size.

    Wish there were more frames available...
    Oh noes. I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid.

  17. #17
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    Anyone weigh a Steel Fargo frame vs a Ti Fargo frame. With the exact same build kit in a blind test-- you think you can actually tell the difference in frames?

    People throw out a lot of reviews about Ti frames feeling livelier/springier and whatnot and I wonder how much of this is just due to psychological bias or lighter weight vs an actual physical property of the materials. Not that I am bashing Ti, Im actively trying to buy one right now haha, just curious if anyone has done a head to head weight and ride test. Trying to convince myself to save my pennies and that steel is just fine. But, I hate upgraditis...

  18. #18
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    Ti is no doubt noticeable. Stiffer than steel, but with the same sort of chatter reducing qualities. Upgraded my El Mar to Ti frame and it's night and day. The hype is real.

  19. #19
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    Any ride reports from these new Ti Timberjack frames? or photos of built bikes.

  20. #20
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    Here's a nice one in Minneapolis....

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  21. #21
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    According to my favorite Salsa dealer, the Timberjack Ti frames were a very limited production and sold out within a couple of hours the day that they were offered.

    Anyone know of one in their LBS? The wife gave me the green light to purchase and now the probability of finding a medium before the end of the year appears to be dismal...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couloirman View Post
    Anyone weigh a Steel Fargo frame vs a Ti Fargo frame. With the exact same build kit in a blind test-- you think you can actually tell the difference in frames?

    People throw out a lot of reviews about Ti frames feeling livelier/springier and whatnot and I wonder how much of this is just due to psychological bias or lighter weight vs an actual physical property of the materials. Not that I am bashing Ti, Im actively trying to buy one right now haha, just curious if anyone has done a head to head weight and ride test. Trying to convince myself to save my pennies and that steel is just fine. But, I hate upgraditis...
    I have weighed an El Mariachi ti frame vs a steel one.

    The return of Titanium!!-img_0658.jpg

    The return of Titanium!!-img_0656.jpg

    Pretty significant difference in weight. Ride quality wise, I would venture to say that they are quite similar, the steel having a bit more chatter damping and overall smoothness. Cant tell which one is stiffer.

    I love both chromo and ti but prefer ti because its lighter, looks cooler (opinion), and dont have to worry about rust.

    Cheers

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDIDriver View Post
    Anyone know of one in their LBS? The wife gave me the green light to purchase and now the probability of finding a medium before the end of the year appears to be dismal...
    Hey - I realize this is a couple weeks late. That said, I saw one on the wall at Universal Cycles in Portland a few weeks back......

  24. #24
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    The real problem is that no one ships Salsa products

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couloirman View Post
    The real problem is that no one ships Salsa products
    Its not allowed as part of the dealer agreement
    My name is George. Iím unemployed and I live with my parents.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klainmeister View Post
    Ti is no doubt noticeable. Stiffer than steel, but with the same sort of chatter reducing qualities. Upgraded my El Mar to Ti frame and it's night and day. The hype is real.
    Quote Originally Posted by abelfonseca View Post
    Pretty significant difference in weight. Ride quality wise, I would venture to say that they are quite similar, the steel having a bit more chatter damping and overall smoothness. Cant tell which one is stiffer.
    i don't know what to believe anymore
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  27. #27
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    2017 Ti Fargo

    The return of Titanium!!-p7210003.jpg

    Got to build up this size Large Ti fargo recently. Test rode after building and while there is a Ti post here and the 50mm Soma Cazadero's were tubeless it sure felt smoooove!
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  28. #28
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    /\ awesome salsa!
    My name is George. Iím unemployed and I live with my parents.
    2017 BMC Speedfox 25-622 ISO
    2017 Salsa Timberjack 40-584 ISO

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by buell View Post
    i don't know what to believe anymore
    Let me help. It's impossible for a material to have the same chatter reducing qualities as steel and yet also be stiffer. The chatter-reducing quality comes from the fact that it is flexible, which would be the opposite of stiff.

    I rode an aluminum hardtail for a long time. A Jamis rep asked me to try out a steel hardtail, and he claimed it would feel a lot smoother on the trail. I couldn't tell the difference. Between tires, rims, axles, and seats/seatposts, there's a lot of material besides the frame that is between your ass and the trail. It's hard to believe that a human could really tell the difference in stiffness between one frame material and another with all else being equal. I bet if you set up a blind test, nobody would pass.

  30. #30
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    I can definitely feel the difference in smoothness between my el mariachi (ti or steel) and a similarly equipped alu bike (specialized stumpjumper). The owner of the spesh felt it as well and was very surprised a hardtail could feel that "smooth", he now calls my El Mar, "The Butter Bike".

    Vibrations go through the bike at lots of different frequencies. Tires and suspension will get rid of most of them in certain frequencies but there are others that will get to you. We humans are very sensitive to vibrations, we feel vibrations in the air that are much less energetic than that, not only with our ears but also with our bodies. Just think about feeling a bass speaker, or the feedback from the road you feel in your fingers and feet when driving a car or riding a motorcycle. Many even feel when tire traction is about to give, that's all through vibrations.

    Telling the difference in feel between my ti and steel frame is much more difficult, at least for me. I can tell them apart by color fairly easily.

    Cheers

  31. #31
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    Conversations about frame materials and relative stiffness can be byzantine and full of erroneous assumptions (often based on what a person's personal preference is - surprise!). There is also a ton of pure BS out there in regards to frame materials (carbon being the biggest example, in my admittedly biased opinion...). But I think this article is a good place to start:

    Stiffness & Compliance - Fit Werx
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  32. #32
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    I appreciate what you're saying, but that anecdote is in no way valid evidence. To be valid, you would need to test the same bike, with the same wheels, seatpost, etc etc with the only difference being the frame material. Your El Mar may indeed be a much smoother bike, but it might just be because the frame is designed in a way that makes it a bit more flexy than the frame of the other bike, or the wheels, or the tires, etc.

    I have read that the reason aluminum bikes feel more stiff than steel or Ti is that they are built with larger diameter tubing because the material is weaker. That makes some sense, as smaller diameter tubing would likely be more flexible. However if the same frame with the same design used two different materials, I highly doubt you could tell the difference just by riding them.

    I'm not saying Ti is bad - it has huge benefits, the biggest being strength, weight, and corrosion resistance. I'm just saying the stiffness vs flexy bit strikes me as BS. People say the same about carbon vs aluminium and I call BS on that too - I've ridden both and I can't really tell the difference.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post

    However if the same frame with the same design used two different materials, I highly doubt you could tell the difference just by riding them.
    Are you sure about this?

    Try riding your mtb with an aluminum seat post and then swap it for a titanium one.

    I've done that- no other changes. Totally different ride feel between the two materials.

    My friend just swapped all the components he could from his Bomb Pop Blue steel Fargo to the titanium one pictured in this thread. Could he tell the diference?

    Yes. So could I.

    I've ridden aluminum Mukluks and then bought a Ti one, swapped parts over from the aluminum one, and rode it on the same trails I ride all the time. I could totally tell something was going on with the titanium frame that was different from the aluminum one. And I loved the aluminum one a lot. Same design for the frames- different materials.

    Salsa actually measured vibration differences when they made the Warbird Gen 2 design and they compared it to the Gen I design. They found that design has a huge impact on vibration damping, and the titanium frame lost out. Does that mean we are all wrong about titanium? Maybe, but they also discerned a measurable difference between the Gen 2 aluminum design and the Gen 2 carbon design, all else being equal. So, materials do make a difference, and it can even be measured. I've ridden both the carbon and aluminum Warbird and I could feel their differences myself.

    Same goes for the ride quality of an aluminum vs carbon Trek Domane. You can tell which is which pretty easily. Same design-different materials.

    You can call BS- it's your opinion, but I do not agree with the notion that you cannot tell the difference between materials, even when the variables are not controlled as much as possible.
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  34. #34
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    I mean, no, I'm not sure. If you can tell the difference, good for you. I couldn't. The Salsa test does suggest to me though that frame design has a far higher impact on vibration dampening than frame material does.

    What's hilarious though is that you have people saying things like, well carbon is stiffer, and in the same breath claiming that it has better vibration damping than aluminum. That literally isn't possible.

    I guess my point is that I think the frame material has little to do with stiffness or vibration damping. That's frame design. Material offers some advantages to designers, like weight, corrosion resistance, etc. But a good designer can use any material and make either a really stiff or a really vibration damping frame. It's the design, not the material, that matters when it comes to stiffness and ride.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I mean, no, I'm not sure. If you can tell the difference, good for you. I couldn't. The Salsa test does suggest to me though that frame design has a far higher impact on vibration dampening than frame material does.
    If you consider Salsa's findings as valid, they actually do show that the carbon frame is better at absorbing vibrations than the aluminum one is. Same design. Only difference is materials. So, yes: material of the frame does make a difference if those findings are true.

    What's hilarious though is that you have people saying things like, well carbon is stiffer, and in the same breath claiming that it has better vibration damping than aluminum. That literally isn't possible.
    Of course, if you believe that carbon fiber is "tunable" for stiffness and ride qualities, as has been claimed for over 20 years, then yes- that is possible.

    I guess my point is that I think the frame material has little to do with stiffness or vibration damping. That's frame design. Material offers some advantages to designers, like weight, corrosion resistance, etc. But a good designer can use any material and make either a really stiff or a really vibration damping frame. It's the design, not the material, that matters when it comes to stiffness and ride.
    It is both these things.
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  36. #36
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    I've had both carbon and aluminum Salsa Beargreases and there is a huge difference in how the two compare. The Aluminum BG is much more lively, bouncy, and stiffer feeling. The carbon BG feels much more damp and numb. However, it is supposed to be a stiffer frame than the aluminum...

    I've also got thousands of miles on steel road and mountain bikes and their ride quality generally feels the same to some extant. It is difficult to describe but I can tell the difference between those frame materials. Just don't ask me how titanium feels!!!

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