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  1. #1
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    <30lb '16 Blackborow ?

    I'm looking at my first fat bike purchase and want to go with the rigid Blackborow, though am concerned about weight. How light could this bike get with the following changes? :

    - 1x10 drivetrain
    - tubeless conversion
    - lighter post/cockpit

    I'd be aiming for <30lbs. I would be using for winter use mostly, ungroomed, kid sled hauling, early spring bikepacking, singlespeed, occasional dry trail shredding.

    Perhaps I should consider building up a frame?

    Thanks for any thoughts.

  2. #2
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    5" rubber is heavy.

    Without knowing what the stock build weighs, it's difficult to know how aggressive you'll have to be to get the bike below 30lb. It's not impossible. I have seen pics of some legitimately sub-30lb Bucksaws. But they were SPENDY. LOTS of carbon. Top shelf drivetrain (a big limitation for many 1x10 drivetrains is going to be the cassette - affordable cassettes tend to be portly), tubeless, lightweight tires on top of it.

    5" rubber will handicap you somewhat. There aren't many aggressively lightweight 5" tires out there.

  3. #3
    Lord Thunderbottom
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    I think it can be done, my large is right around 33# with stock wheels, tubed lou on both ends, carbon nothing, 2x X9 and stock surly OD crank
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

  4. #4
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    I agree. I think it won't be too difficult.

    I'm planning a rigid build with DT Swiss Big Ride wheelset tubeless (no idea on tires), RF Turbine Cinch crankset, SLX 1x10 drivetrain/brakes.

    Now just need to sell my Salsa Selma Ti frame to raise the funds.

  5. #5
    Lord Thunderbottom
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    Quote Originally Posted by adinpapa View Post
    (no idea on tires)
    not sure what your riding is like but my summer set is currently the 4.8 knard, decently light weight and the casing seems massive, even compared to bud/lou, but they still roll fast

    I'll ride them part way into winter and won't swap them out till there's a few feet of unpacked snow when I'll need the big lugs
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

  6. #6
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    thanks for the recommendation - what 'big lug' tires do you prefer?

    I'll be riding fall deep leaf litter, slush/crap , snow packed, snow off-trail adventure <5" powder. And probably a few nights of bikepacking in dry conditions.

    Until I'm a true believer, my Pivot LES SS will be my dry condition ripper

  7. #7
    Lord Thunderbottom
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    for the worst possible conditions, I don't think there is any argument that bud/lou win that battle, if you want something that doesn't give up much traction but rolls a little faster Dillinger 5's have been good too
    Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't

  8. #8
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    Any thoughts on wheel opinions for a lightweight build?

    I really like the concept of the DT Swiss BR2250 ("Big Ride") rims and hubs. (great price from UK now)

    Durability and serviceability of DTSwiss is a big draw. Yet the rim width is only 75mm (inside width?) . As this is my first fat bike, I am curious if I may be missing out on benefits of a 90mm or 100mm rim width using hunky 4.8 tires in the winter on the Blackborow. Any thoughts on this or leads on additional lightweight reasonably priced wheel choices, would be appreciated.

  9. #9
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    Hey adin i work in a bike shop and your dream of the <30 lbs blackborow is very obtainable. Going tubeless on the blackborow would almost get you there, then changing out the rims on the Bb for something a bit lighter would finish it off. I do not reccomend building a bike from the frame up, it can get WAY more expensive than just getting a good solid build from a company. I ordered my blackborow 2x10 a couple months ago. I was looking at many other fatbikes but the Bb almost always won my comparisons.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the input Carter23. I'm leaning toward a full build.

    Can the crank on the '16 2x be setup 1x with a narrow wide chainring- Good chain line?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
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    I did a bp trip from Northampton to Wendell mostly on the old M&M trail. They recently rerouted much of it , now called New England Trail.

    I'll be selling my Salsa Selma Ti bike to fund the BB - look forward to riding fully loaded on it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #12
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    I'll have to measure what mine currently weighs. Haven't done anything other than tubeless (split tube), and seat post (Thomson). I think it was 32lb stock (this is the DS). I bet now I've dropped 1lb or so. If I got Jumbo Jim's and/or the new Surly MOBD or DT rims, I'd be there. So you won't need to spend much money to get it under 30.

  13. #13
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    My XL is 32 with these changes: JJ 4.8, tubeless with transparent duct tape, 1x with race face turbine cinch.
    2015 Salsa Blackborow 1
    2017 Devinci Hatchet Carbon
    2009 Spec Tricross Sport
    2019 Ibis Ripmo spring '19...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LewisQC View Post
    My XL is 32 with these changes: JJ 4.8, tubeless with transparent duct tape, 1x with race face turbine cinch.
    Which fork are you using?
    '15 had an alloy fork right?
    '16 has a Bluto or carbon fork. Or maybe you installed another fork?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Tjaard; 11-06-2015 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Read signature

  15. #15
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    I have the stock alu fork (2015)

  16. #16
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    Stock 2016 Blackborrow Sus1 was ~33.5, not pedals
    That weight is driven up by:
    -Bluto fork, carbon fork on the rigid is going to be ~2.5 pounds lighter.
    - clownshoe rims. No replacement for displacement as they say, but they are porky.

    Dtswiss and My other Brother Darryl are a lot lighter, but also a lot narrower.
    HED rims are even lighter and still wide, but they are costly!

    On the other hand, it has some lightening parts too:
    -Jumbo Jim 4.8 with ultralight casing. The drawback is that those are not very tubless compatible, they tend to weep and take a lot of sealant to seal up. I wish they had specced the Snakeskin version, also to protect those smooth sidewalls from rocks.
    -1x drivetrain

    I would not choose to run the light casing in the rear in summer.
    Last edited by Tjaard; 11-08-2015 at 07:44 AM. Reason: Noticed correct spec

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    Stock 2016 Blackborrow Sus1 was ~33.5, not pedals
    On the other hand, it has some lightening parts too:
    -Jumbo Jim 4.8 with ultralight casing. The drawback is that those are not very tubless compatible, they tend to weep and take a lot of sealant to seal up. I wish they had specced the Snakeskin version, also to protect those smooth sidewalls from rocks.
    Wow! I have to strongly disagree with you on this. I've read all this thread on JJhttp://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/jumbo-jim-928088.html and from what I remember, people were generally saying how easy it was getting them tubeless...

    I can certainly talk about my experience. On my clownshoes: first try on front and rear with my small/cheap compressor. They aired up and sealed without sealant! 4 onces of stan per tire, no leak at all for all summer. Ran them like that a lot this summer without any issue from 4 to 8 psi (mostly 5.5 to 7 in very rocky/technical trails). Oh, one ride I was on the lower side on pressure and strike my front rim on a rock. I could see some stan on the tire back home and the next day my tire was flat; just inflated it with my floor pump to 5psi and no more problem.

    I will try to set my Lous tubeless for winter, I hope it will be as easy as JJ but not so sure about that...
    2015 Salsa Blackborow 1
    2017 Devinci Hatchet Carbon
    2009 Spec Tricross Sport
    2019 Ibis Ripmo spring '19...

  18. #18
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    My Moonlander was down to just under 28 lbs at one point. I mainly replaced parts with carbon/lighter stuff when the originals broke or wore out.

    A BB should be easy.

  19. #19
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    Lewis,

    Do you have the Liteskin version? Or the Snakeskin version?
    If you have the Liteskin, which is what came on my Blackborow, that's good to hear.

    I was going off Schwalbe's statement:
    NOTE: When converting light weight MTB racing tires to tubeless, the process can take up to 3 days of consistent sealing and sealant will seep from the sidewalls of the tires.
    LiteSkin MTB racing tires are inherently thin in the sidewalls and will require extra care.

  20. #20
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    It seems totally possible, without too much effort/expense. I'd be curious to put my large Bb on a scale at this point. Changes I've made to it so far:

    - Tubeless conversion (tape method)
    - WTB Rocket Team saddle (150 grams lighter than the stock saddle)
    - Swapped out the stock Salt Flat bar for a Race Face Turbine that is slightly shorter/lighter.
    - Took Bud/Lou off and opted for Dillinger 5s (hundred grams lighter)

    I'm guesstimating I'm around 31lbs right now, just with those few simple changes.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  21. #21
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    Wheel sets

    H
    Quote Originally Posted by adinpapa View Post
    Any thoughts on wheel opinions for a lightweight build?
    . Yet the rim width is only 75mm (inside width?) . As this is my first fat bike, I am curious if I may be missing out on benefits of a 90mm or 100mm rim width using hunky 4.8 tires in the winter on the Blackborow. Any thoughts on this or leads on additional lightweight reasonably priced wheel choices, would be appreciated.
    Yes, you would be missing out. In soft snow, crust over snow, or on thin ice a wider tire is much better than a narrower one.

    Obviously, many people ride successfully on mid-width rims, but if you're happy with that, why bother with the Blackborrow frame rather than the Beargrease? Similar geometry with more crank options and narrower stance width.

    If you bought a complete bike and are modifying it, then one good option would be the narrower wheels with a narrower tire for firm conditions, and the stock wheelset with big meats for the conditions listed above.

    If you are building a frame up with just one wheelset I would strongly consider 100 mm rims.

    If you want light wheels and are ok with mid width, a wide rim with a narrower tire will be lighter than vice versa.

    For example, 45Nrth Dillinger 4 on 100mm rim is the same width as a Dillinger 5 on a 85mm rim.

    D5+Darryl, 1500+860=2340g
    D4+Clownshoe, 1250+960=2210g

    This is because rubber is heavier than aluminum with cutouts. If you can spring for carbon wheels, the equation tips even further towards wide rims and narrower tires:
    D5+Big Deal= 1500+450=1950g
    D4+BFD = 1250+500=1750g

    Plus, having the wider wheelset will allow you to simply swap tires if you want to go max fat, which is cheaper than swapping wheels.

  22. #22
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    Tjaard makes a good case.
    However I went with the DT Swiss Big Ride wheels tubeless with Bud/Lous. Without diving into weights much, I figured the 80mm DT rims for more versatility was preferred than maximum fat. With narrower rubber I can use them for Summer bikepacking and Fall leaf litter shredding. Plus $600 direct from Germany and it seemed like a no brainer.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by adinpapa View Post
    Tjaard makes a good case.
    However I went with the DT Swiss Big Ride wheels tubeless with Bud/Lous. Without diving into weights much, I figured the 80mm DT rims for more versatility was preferred than maximum fat. With narrower rubber I can use them for Summer bikepacking and Fall leaf litter shredding. Plus $600 direct from Germany and it seemed like a no brainer.
    Yes, my discussion above pertained strictly to snow riding, where a wider tire and more square profile are better. On hard surfaces those make poor handling (hard to turn or lots of self steer).

    Also, in my general, abstract point, I was assuming similar construction for different rim widths.
    That is true in the case of the carbon rims from HED and Alchemist, but in the case of alloy rims, the only 100 mm option, the Clownshoe, uses heavier construction(and poorer tubeless capability) than the new BR710 and future MyOtherBrotherDarryl.

    So, until Surly makes Another Brother Clownshoe, or DtSwiss makes a 100 rim, the weight difference this year is bigger than my example.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    Lewis,

    Do you have the Liteskin version? Or the Snakeskin version?
    If you have the Liteskin, which is what came on my Blackborow, that's good to hear.

    I was going off Schwalbe's statement:
    NOTE: When converting light weight MTB racing tires to tubeless, the process can take up to 3 days of consistent sealing and sealant will seep from the sidewalls of the tires.
    LiteSkin MTB racing tires are inherently thin in the sidewalls and will require extra care.
    Sorry I miss your post. I have the Liteskin version. There's some marking on the sidewall after 5 months of riding but nothing serious. I guess it depends where you are riding but for me, durability seems fine.

    I was very lucky to find those tire on clearance (I don't understand why drop the price as they are so difficult to find!) available for 2 days on Chain Reaction.
    2015 Salsa Blackborow 1
    2017 Devinci Hatchet Carbon
    2009 Spec Tricross Sport
    2019 Ibis Ripmo spring '19...

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