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    2017 Salsa bikes

    Any word yet on next years Salsa's?

    My wish list is a 29+ Spearfish.

    (Whatever edit done )
    Last edited by rushman3; 07-06-2016 at 09:22 PM.

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    EDIT: Information removed sure to a threatening PM I received from a Salsa employee.
    Last edited by big_papa_nuts; 07-20-2016 at 09:40 AM.

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    Hmmm...I started to type something out, but honestly, the things on my '2017 wishlist' for Salsa already have, or are about to be released, by Advocate - the Hayduke already is what the El Mar should have become a year or two ago (and probably will), a boosted version of a Fargo-esque bike (soon to be released) and a gravel bike made with a good steel frame/carbon fork (the Lorax). And a couple other things...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Hmmm...I started to type something out, but honestly, the things on my '2017 wishlist' for Salsa already have, or are about to be released, by Advocate - the Hayduke already is what the El Mar should have become a year or two ago (and probably will), a boosted version of a Fargo-esque bike (soon to be released) and a gravel bike made with a good steel frame/carbon fork (the Lorax). And a couple other things...
    Well, hopefully not a boosted Cutty with a threaded BB. I have just bought the 2016 one

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    My LBS hinted at a short travel 29+. Guess we'll see soon enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach417 View Post
    My LBS hinted at a short travel 29+. Guess we'll see soon enough.
    Not FS

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    Last edited by big_papa_nuts; 07-20-2016 at 09:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_papa_nuts View Post
    Woodsmoke 29+
    Timberjack 27.5
    Mukluk NX1 Suspension
    Woodsmoke a replacement for the Deadwood? Looking at possibly picking up a Deadwood but might wait and see what else is coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tincup69 View Post
    Woodsmoke a replacement for the Deadwood? Looking at possibly picking up a Deadwood but might wait and see what else is coming.
    I think all of the Deadwoods are sold out, including frames. If they're going to make another 29+ bike, it probably won't be a rigid drop bar bike.

    On another note, how does anybody know anything? Where are these names coming from? Both Woodsmoke and Timberjack sounds like Salsa names, but I can't tell if this is a joke or they have some insider information...
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    Those names are real.

    There is also a new Alternator dropout that will allow for changes in wheel size without screwing up bb height.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Those names are real.

    There is also a new Alternator dropout that will allow for changes in wheel size without screwing up bb height.
    But, why/how do you know? I don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by buell View Post
    But, why/how do you know? I don't get it.
    How do you think? Lots of people on the forum work in the industry in many capacities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    How do you think? Lots of people on the forum work in the industry in many capacities.
    oic
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    I've seen rumors that the Vaya is going away. I'd really like a 57cm frame, but frames and completes appear all sold out. Any word on the future of the Vaya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbiker View Post
    I've seen rumors that the Vaya is going away. I'd really like a 57cm frame, but frames and completes appear all sold out. Any word on the future of the Vaya?
    Vaya is not going away. Not this year, anyway. No idea on sizing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Vaya is not going away. Not this year, anyway. No idea on sizing.
    Awesome, thanks! Now I just need to be patient until the 2017s are available...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbiker View Post
    Awesome, thanks! Now I just need to be patient until the 2017s are available...
    I hope that whatever they come out with will actually be available to buy.
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    BoardFoot - 12" tire fat bike
    BarkBeetle - folding BMX touring bike
    YellowBelly- old folk tricycle with fat tires

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    Samsquatch- 26+ rear, 29+ front, rear suspension, front rigid drop bar touring enduro bike

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    Donkey Puncher - boosted full-sus downhill gravel bike.
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    If this thread's staying on the first page can we get a mod to delete that apostrophe?
    You change your own flats? Support your LBS and pay them to instead.

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    these names are great
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    Vaya is not going away. Not this year, anyway. No idea on sizing.
    And the El Mar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratherbeintobago View Post
    And the El Mar?
    I don't remember, honestly.

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    EDIT: Information removed sure to a threatening PM I received from a Salsa employee.
    Last edited by big_papa_nuts; 07-20-2016 at 09:43 AM.

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    The Woodsmoke sounds pretty interesting...
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Is the Timberjack 27.5 or 27.5+? I wonder what it might be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratherbeintobago View Post
    Is the Timberjack 27.5 or 27.5+? I wonder what it might be.
    My guess is a boosted 27+ hardtail to replace the El Mar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    My guess is a boosted 27+ hardtail to replace the El Mar.
    Yes, I'd be surprised if there's no hardtail in the range. When's the official launch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratherbeintobago View Post
    Yes, I'd be surprised if there's no hardtail in the range. When's the official launch?
    Probably at Saddle Drive, July 24-30th
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    Anyone know what the Woodsmoke 29+ will be? I'd guess a hardtail flat-bar trail bike with somewhere between 120-140mm of front travel?
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    good guess. I know they are going to have a 27+ sus hardtail. Confirmed today.

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    Don't know how accurate, but the 29+ my LBS was talking about was a short travel FS. By the way, they don't sell many QBP bikes, but sell more S brand and Giants than any shop in the SE USA. I do hope they are right tho. Also, would love a 29+ El Mariachi type HT. Just sayin'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach417 View Post
    Don't know how accurate, but the 29+ my LBS was talking about was a short travel FS. By the way, they don't sell many QBP bikes, but sell more S brand and Giants than any shop in the SE USA. I do hope they are right tho. Also, would love a 29+ El Mariachi type HT. Just sayin'
    I don't recall that. I do remember a 29+ HT as well as a 27+ ht, but my memory gets fuzzier on it the farther out we get from the half hour I got to look at the catalog. I don't remember any NEW FS bikes. Redpoint 26+, Pony Rustler 27+, Spearfish, Horsethief, and Bucksaw 4" are the FS bikes, and they were all older models, or already announced.

    frame design included an elevated chainstay on the drive side that happens to easily enable a belt drive.

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    no new FS bikes, just the hardtails and updates to the rest of the line up (and some fat bike stuff)

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    Quote Originally Posted by buell View Post
    Anyone know what the Woodsmoke 29+ will be? I'd guess a hardtail flat-bar trail bike with somewhere between 120-140mm of front travel?
    Man I hope your right! Could it be where all the OEM Pike 29+ forks are going...........?
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    That's a pretty expensive fork--my guess is Fox 34. Maybe if they do a top level version it would have a Pike.
    Last edited by ejj; 07-13-2016 at 02:47 PM.

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    No Fox, just Pike, Yari, and Recon

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    No Fox, just Pike, Yari, and Recon
    Cool. The Yari is a good fork for the use and money when shopping a pike style bike. The Recon is max 120 travel, right? Maybe they put a sektor on instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parenzo View Post
    Well, hopefully not a boosted Cutty with a threaded BB. I have just bought the 2016 one
    same here.

    I gotta say, having stuck the 30mm internal diameter Roval Traverse carbons on my Cuttie with 2.3" tires, I think a 29+ Cutthroat/Deadwood combo would be pretty awesome
    just ride.

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    Not sure if previously mentioned, but i have heard these new bikes are carbon/aluminum only.

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    Time to move to sequoia or rlt 9 steel then...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop01 View Post
    Not sure if previously mentioned, but i have heard these new bikes are carbon/aluminum only.
    I'd be surprised if the El Mar replacement (if it exists) doesn't come in steel rather than aluminium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratherbeintobago View Post
    I'd be surprised if the El Mar replacement (if it exists) doesn't come in steel rather than aluminium.
    All i heard about were the two bikes mentioned a few weeks ago. Neither appears to be steel and i think the mariachi is dead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsukurac View Post
    Time to move to sequoia or rlt 9 steel then...
    not saying those are bad choices, but I would be absolutely amazed if they discontinued both the Fargo and the Vaya (or changed these steel-only beasts into carbon or aluminum)
    just ride.

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    Maybe they are trying to leverage Surly more as the "go-to brand for steel?"

    Regardless, that's a shame. I have little interest in gravel or bikepacking bikes with aluminum or carbon frames.
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    I ws only referring to the new models... No news on Fargo or other current models losing steel except that the mariachi is done

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    Fargo, Vaya, Marakesh, and Powderkeg are the only steel bikes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    There is also a new Alternator dropout that will allow for changes in wheel size without screwing up bb height.

    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    2017 sees the Fargo get boost spacing and the ability to run 27+/29/29+. They basically tweaked the geometry of the Deadwood and made it the default Fargo platform.
    Does it do this by swapping the new alternator dropouts in order to negate any bb drop?

    And what other differences are there between the Deadwood and the new Fargo? I imagine the Deadwood uses Cobra Kai while the Fargo uses Kung Fu?
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by buell View Post
    And what other differences are there between the Deadwood and the new Fargo? I imagine the Deadwood uses Cobra Kai while the Fargo uses Kung Fu?
    Hopefully they made the geometry actually work with a 29+ wheel. I was not at all impressed with a few things on the Deadwood, and there was definitely room for improvement there in terms of geometry.

    I would be a bit surprised to see a Fargo that worked with all three wheel formats without some sort of compromises though. Perhaps if the wheel size is dictated by frame size, it would make sense that this would be the scheme for the Fargo going forward- That is, smaller sizes would work with 27.5+ and larger with 29+, with a swap of the Alternator to allow for geometry differences coming from a 29"er wheel. Making a small, or medium Fargo work for all three sizes would be a big compromise in my opinion, but maybe there is something there I don't know about that makes up for the discrepancies involved with switching to such disparate wheel diameters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Hopefully they made the geometry actually work with a 29+ wheel. I was not at all impressed with a few things on the Deadwood, and there was definitely room for improvement there in terms of geometry.
    Could you please elaborate on what you didn't like?

    I read what you said on your site about "geometry gymnastics" but you are very vague/ambiguous. I compared the Deadwood geometry to the Fargo and do not see what you're talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Hopefully they made the geometry actually work with a 29+ wheel. I was not at all impressed with a few things on the Deadwood, and there was definitely room for improvement there in terms of geometry.

    I would be a bit surprised to see a Fargo that worked with all three wheel formats without some sort of compromises though.
    Prepare to be semi-surprised and slightly less unimpressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    Prepare to be semi-surprised and slightly less unimpressed.
    Meh, we need something likeopen u.p. With salsa name on it. Do they produce something like that?

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    My wife needs a new bike, and she can ride my large Fargo just fine, and I kinda wish I had gone for a XL.
    The local LBS has an XL, so it seems like I just need to buy it, but if there are changes coming to the Fargo, I think would rather wait. When are the specs officially released?

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    Quote Originally Posted by buell View Post
    Could you please elaborate on what you didn't like?
    The Deadwood I rode had a very......well, dead feeling front end, massive toe overlap, and essentially steered like a barge compared to other 29+ bikes I've tried. Thoroughly unimpressed.

    I've tried the same bike three different times on three different occasions, with the same result, so I am pretty sure I don't like it. YMMV
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    any updates on a possible 29plus hardtail kinda like the stache? when does any of this stuff come out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    The Deadwood I rode had a very......well, dead feeling front end, massive toe overlap, and essentially steered like a barge compared to other 29+ bikes I've tried. Thoroughly unimpressed.

    I've tried the same bike three different times on three different occasions, with the same result, so I am pretty sure I don't like it. YMMV
    GT,

    From what I've seen on your blog you are a tall guy. Massive toe overlap on a larger frame means it would be very noticeable for us shorter riders. I really love the idea of the Deadwood but I've never seen one live.

    Last year I was all pumped up for the Cannonade Beast of the East. Maybe it was the nostalgia factor of that name combined with appeal of the mid-fat concept. My LBS got one in and it rode like a dead fish. Completely unimpressive but it looked great.

    This is why you can't buy a bike from a spec sheet. You need to ride it. Around me that's getting tougher and tougher since shops seem to be bringing in less new inventory every year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Hopefully they made the geometry actually work with a 29+ wheel. I was not at all impressed with a few things on the Deadwood, and there was definitely room for improvement there in terms of geometry.

    I would be a bit surprised to see a Fargo that worked with all three wheel formats without some sort of compromises though. Perhaps if the wheel size is dictated by frame size, it would make sense that this would be the scheme for the Fargo going forward- That is, smaller sizes would work with 27.5+ and larger with 29+, with a swap of the Alternator to allow for geometry differences coming from a 29"er wheel. Making a small, or medium Fargo work for all three sizes would be a big compromise in my opinion, but maybe there is something there I don't know about that makes up for the discrepancies involved with switching to such disparate wheel diameters.
    wouldn't there need to be SOME type of bb adjustment in order to run a 27+ on the same frame as a 29+? I would think that would be an enormous difference in bb drop required, no?
    just ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtrobo View Post
    wouldn't there need to be SOME type of bb adjustment in order to run a 27+ on the same frame as a 29+? I would think that would be an enormous difference in bb drop required, no?
    That's definitely something I would think would be an issue that would make that idea difficult to pull off well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    That's definitely something I would think would be an issue that would make that idea difficult to pull off well.
    doesn't the Jones+ have one of those adjustable BBs? I can't remember if Santa Cruz is doing that with their 29/27+ "adjustables" or not. maybe i'm thinking of another manuf.
    just ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_papa_nuts View Post
    EDIT: Information removed sure to a threatening PM I received from a Salsa employee.
    Well that sucks! I wish I had done a screen shot of the list!

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    How come I didn't get a threatening PM?? Do I have to leak my copy of the catalog to get into the cool kids club??

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    Leak it homie

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    Anyone have any info on changes to the Horsethief/Pony Rustler?

    I'm debating buying a 16 HT vs. waiting for a 17.

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    any information on the 2017 Salsa Warbird Carbon bike or bikes would be appreciated. colors, build kits and if they might actually be available this year and not just an item # with no stock.


    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    Prepare to be semi-surprised and slightly less unimpressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    any information on the 2017 Salsa Warbird Carbon bike or bikes would be appreciated. colors, build kits and if they might actually be available this year and not just an item # with no stock.
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantTurd View Post
    I bought a carbon Warbird this year on closeout because they had overstock. Got it 40% off.
    Warbird is supposed to get fender mounts from what I heard

    As for the closeout/overstock, that is insane

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtrobo View Post
    Warbird is supposed to get fender mounts from what I heard
    Finally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    Finally.

    Seriously. Dunno why they wouldn't have then
    Last edited by sgtrobo; 07-22-2016 at 07:11 AM.

  69. #69
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    Yes it's been dead silent on the Salsa Warbird front... Those bikes were rarer than hens teeth. I'd really like to see what's up for the new year's model; hopefully they made enough of them this time around.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    How come I didn't get a threatening PM?? Do I have to leak my copy of the catalog to get into the cool kids club??
    Yes, I think that's what you need to do ;-)

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_papa_nuts View Post
    EDIT: Information removed sure to a threatening PM I received from a Salsa employee.
    What's with Salsa threatening to sue folk?
    Who do they think they are, JK Rowling?

    I came on to see if there is any more info about the death of the El-Mar. Who does the news reports for saddledrive?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    any information on the 2017 Salsa Warbird Carbon bike or bikes would be appreciated. colors, build kits and if they might actually be available this year and not just an item # with no stock.
    If you look at the new Salsa clothing that just came out, it changed form the 'black rasta' theme of the warbird to a new 'green rasta' theme s I would guess that is one of the new colors for the 2017 carbon warbird.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedfromthecircus View Post
    What's with Salsa threatening to sue folk?
    Who do they think they are, JK Rowling?

    I came on to see if there is any more info about the death of the El-Mar. Who does the news reports for saddledrive?
    Mama Q will rule the world, one way or another.

  74. #74
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    Looks like the new KM is closer to what everyone wanted outta the mariachi.

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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop01 View Post
    Looks like the new KM is closer to what everyone wanted outta the mariachi.

    Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
    Do you have a link?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratherbeintobago View Post
    Do you have a link?
    Theyre up on the Surly website

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  77. #77
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    My Surly Krampus was stolen out of my apartment 4 days after returning from a 10 day bikepacking trip around central Oregon. I'm absolutely heart broken about it, but new wheels must spin on.

    Keep your eyes peeled:
    Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet


    I'm looking to replace the krampus with a Fargo x9 front suspension but I'm also very interested to see what comes out later this week at Saddle Drive. I'm set on a drop bar mountain bike and hoping salsa has something sweet coming out in that category. Drop bar 29er/27.5x3"/26x4" with front suspension please please please...

  78. #78
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    I'm going to guess that the Fargo will be offered in two variations - a 27.5+ and a 29er. I don't believe either of them comes w/front sus, but we'll see.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop01 View Post
    Looks like the new KM is closer to what everyone wanted outta the mariachi.

    Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
    The new KM is just knocking it outta the park!


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  80. #80
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    Any news on the Woodsmoke and Timberjack?
    2003 Kona A
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  81. #81
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    Check rei.com

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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop01 View Post
    Check rei.com
    Can't see anything there...

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    I'm going to guess that the Fargo will be offered in two variations - a 27.5+ and a 29er. I don't believe either of them comes w/front sus, but we'll see.
    Correct on two variants, one with a carbon fork and one with a steel fork.

  84. #84
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    Looks like they're in the process of updating them on their website. Vayas have new colors and more terrible builds and Marakeshes have new colors and the same terrible racks.
    You change your own flats? Support your LBS and pay them to instead.

  85. #85
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    the Vayas aren't terrible builds for the price, but they are obviously targeting a lower price point.

    Not a fan of Salsa's rack. Wife has one on her 2016 Fargo and I'm not a fan at all.
    just ride.

  86. #86
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  87. #87
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    WTF is that woodsmoke?

  88. #88
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    woodsmoke = belt-drive ready?

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klainmeister View Post
    WTF is that woodsmoke?
    That's what I want to know. That back end is really strange.

    It also looks like the El Mar has been replaced with an aluminum framed bike. That's unfortunate.
    He who dares....wins!

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    That's what I want to know. That back end is really strange.


    Not exactly unique either.

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    It also looks like the El Mar has been replaced with an aluminum framed bike. That's unfortunate.
    Yep. Just another alloy 29er.

  91. #91
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    The colors for the Warbird are tremendous. Every single scheme is great.
    He who dares....wins!

  92. #92
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    Looks like most of the stuff is priced very competitively.

    Deadwood is gone, but the Fargo is now compatible with 29+. I think you have to supply your own wheels though, if you want to go that route...

  93. #93
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    Salsa Timberjack or should I go with the Trek Stache 9? I am looking for the versatility that both of these bikes can add by having the interchangeable wheel sets. But why are people upset about alloy frames?

  94. #94
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    Cuz steel is real, bruh

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  95. #95
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    Surprised and underwhelmed. Somebody wrote that and I believe it is accurate. El Mar replacement is meh. Cool you can run the belt drive on one model. A Rohloff belt would be cool.

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    I'd grab a Stache and afford myself the option of going 29 plus.

  97. #97
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    Looks like we're all trying to get to Salsa's website at once. Of interest to me is the new Mukluk. Now with 197mm rear spacing and carbon! I'm assuming it can run 5" tires on 100mm rims now but the overview page wasn't specific. Any ideas? Also does this mean the Blackborrow is gone (and there is an XL on clearance somewhere)?

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    The colors for the Warbird are tremendous. Every single scheme is great.
    That orange/red is real purdy. I wonder if they will actually be readily available this year - I had quite a frustrating experience trying to get one before.

  99. #99
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    Is a specific 27,5" Fargo really useful?

    Good idea to go one-by, but guys... 32x11 as a higer gear on 27,5"... seriously?

    for a $2,299 MSRP you can afford a 10-42 cassette, can't you?

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    That orange/red is real purdy. I wonder if they will actually be readily available this year - I had quite a frustrating experience trying to get one before.
    Did you ever get a Warbird Carbon last year? I've never seen one in the wild...just online. I've got a RLT frame set on order right now. I was contemplating canceling and waiting on a 2017 Warbird Frame, but I don't know...I've been let down by Salsa too many times when it comes to schedules and release dates. I also love the new colors. They all look great. I wish they offered a Force 1 Hydro build with a 10-42.

  101. #101
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    Wow - the woodsmoke appears to be the lovechild of a Stache and a Mantis Valkyrie. Not a pretty baby either.

  102. #102
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    Lot's of good changes and updates, and most schemes are way better.

    No Colossal/El Mar is a huge bummer.

    Titanium is dead to Salsa. I guess it makes sense but still sucks.

    Woodsmoke is pretty rad but the stache is a better price point.

    Muk/Buck look mean now. In a good way.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp View Post
    Looks like we're all trying to get to Salsa's website at once. Of interest to me is the new Mukluk. Now with 197mm rear spacing and carbon! I'm assuming it can run 5" tires on 100mm rims now but the overview page wasn't specific. Any ideas? Also does this mean the Blackborrow is gone (and there is an XL on clearance somewhere)?
    Yep, Muk runs 5's on 100's, and the Blackborow has been disappeared.

  104. #104
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    Is the Timberjack is 29+ compatible? Under "Frame Compatibility" is lists "Design Wheel/Tire Size 29 x 3.0" (at 417 mm rear center)". Or did someone let copy-and-paste (from the Woodsmoke) get out of hand?

  105. #105
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    I would never buy an alloy hardtail.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVLthumper View Post
    Did you ever get a Warbird Carbon last year? I've never seen one in the wild...just online. I've got a RLT frame set on order right now. I was contemplating canceling and waiting on a 2017 Warbird Frame, but I don't know...I've been let down by Salsa too many times when it comes to schedules and release dates. I also love the new colors. They all look great. I wish they offered a Force 1 Hydro build with a 10-42.
    I finally got a warbird but it was a 53 and I would fit a bit better on a 55. Like many people, I couldn't find any locally but a shop across the country where my brother lives had one, in 53, so I bought it and he shipped it to me. I put a 100mm stem on it to make it fit but that has some other effects like making it steer slower. So I'm looking at the new frames to get the 55. OR, the Ridley X Trail, Parlee Chebacco, Scott Addict Gravel, OPEN U.P., or possibly Focus Paralane although that can only 35mm tires.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotsalsa View Post
    Titanium is dead to Salsa. I guess it makes sense but still sucks.
    QBP has shifted the ti bikes over to Foundry, it seems.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raumfahrer Rolf View Post
    Is the Timberjack is 29+ compatible? Under "Frame Compatibility" is lists "Design Wheel/Tire Size 29 x 3.0" (at 417 mm rear center)". Or did someone let copy-and-paste (from the Woodsmoke) get out of hand?
    Nothing in the written description say 29+ - I'm with you that it is a copy/paste thing.

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp View Post
    Looks like we're all trying to get to Salsa's website at once. Of interest to me is the new Mukluk. Now with 197mm rear spacing and carbon! I'm assuming it can run 5" tires on 100mm rims now but the overview page wasn't specific. Any ideas? Also does this mean the Blackborrow is gone (and there is an XL on clearance somewhere)?
    Makes sense to expand the Muk to 197, since it got an upgrade last year to what is basically the saem geo as the Bb. No need to have two bikes that are otherwise so similar.

    But is the Bb truly dead, or merely dormant in the laboratory to rise again in some new incarnation?!?

    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  110. #110
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    For all intents, the AL Mukluk is what the Blackborrow was, except with a narrower bottom bracket.

    It looks like Salsa streamlined their line-up and eliminated some overlap between models...

  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by talabardio View Post
    That orange/red is real purdy. I wonder if they will actually be readily available this year - I had quite a frustrating experience trying to get one before.
    I think it is the same color as the 2016 carbon Bucksaw, which is an awesome paint job. Looks anything from orange to dark red depending on the lighting.

    I really like like the look of the Red Cutthroat, that one gets moved to the top of the list. Too bad I'm stuck at n, so need to -1 first.
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  112. #112
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    I really like this bike. The midstay is crazy short. I can only imagine how lively of ride this will be. Can anyone add some thoughts....I like!

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  113. #113
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    so...

    no more Marrakesh?

  114. #114
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    Beargrease Carbon X1 has Tubeless Ready Hüsker Dü tires?! I hope 45nrth would add a tubeless ready Dillinger 5 tires to their line. New Mukluk has Dillinger 5 tires but in the spec chart it is not mentioned that it would be tubeless ready tire...

  115. #115
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    And I wonder why there is no V2.0 alternator dropouts in the alu mukluk? The idea of having two fixed points for the rear axle is good because then there is no danger of slipping the dropout and then there is more tire options/shorter chainstay, although Salsa mentions that the new version has some kind of anti-slip tech. But yeah, I would like to see some more info on the new v2.0 alternator dropout.

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by forward View Post
    And I wonder why there is no V2.0 alternator dropouts in the alu mukluk?
    My guess is salsa doesn't have an aluminum mounting point design for the V2 dropouts. If you look through the lineup, the V2 dropouts are only on carbon models. Possible reasons (pure speculation here): the AL versions couldn't be built to have short enough chain stays to make effective use of the two positions, or salsa didn't want to redesign the AL frame's rear axle mount. The bikes using the V2 dropouts are indeed all new carbon frames so I guess they used their design resources on those and stuck with what's been known to work for the AL bikes.

    Speaking of AL, the timberjack is very well priced (Complete bike for $1k). I wonder if their deal with REI has anything to do with this new entry level bike.

    Anyway, back to the Muk...pretty stoked about it. It didn't really make sense to have two fatbikes (Muk & BB) where the only real difference was rear hub spacing. Now we have a carbon option with internal routing, 120mm fork capatibility, and apparently "the shortest chainstays on the market"! This will probably be the replacement for my 2014 Muk. Here's hoping an XL frame gets lost in inventory until next march when it goes on closeout!

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianstuart65 View Post
    so...

    no more Marrakesh?
    New marrakesh already came out in June
    The New Marrakesh Has Arrived | Salsa Cycles

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp View Post
    Speaking of AL, the timberjack is very well priced (Complete bike for $1k). I wonder if their deal with REI has anything to do with this new entry level bike.
    In my conversation with the rep, the $1k pricepoint has been something that's been long-requested, but the product managers couldn't pull it off with available components and get the overall quality they wanted. Apparently, the SRAM NX groupset is a big part of enabling that pricepoint. I see they're also making use of the much less expensive Sunrace cassettes instead of the SRAM ones. Looks like they worked to hit that pricepoint on several different models.

    I am intrigued by the tubeless-ready Husker Dus. I like the HuDus I'm using now, and have been uncertain what I'll replace them with when they wear out. Only thing I know for sure is that I want to use a true tubeless-ready tire. I'm curious what other TR options are going to be available, and I really hope fat tire prices start to drop a bit due to some of the competition at sub-$100 prices.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by forward View Post
    Beargrease Carbon X1 has Tubeless Ready Hüsker Dü tires?! I hope 45nrth would add a tubeless ready Dillinger 5 tires to their line. New Mukluk has Dillinger 5 tires but in the spec chart it is not mentioned that it would be tubeless ready tire...
    As I understand going forward all 45Nrth tires are tubless ready.
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  120. #120
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    No comments on the Vaya GX? I wonder how light it is and whether the carbon fork makes the bike more acceptable for unloaded pavement use...


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  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junglejay View Post
    No comments on the Vaya GX? I wonder how light it is and whether the carbon fork makes the bike more acceptable for unloaded pavement use...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I've been researching it all afternoon. I'm torn between fargo and vaya. I wish it came with smaller chainrings, but I like the increased cleareance for 50mm tires. I like utility and it seems like a good option for a commuter and still be able to put some higher volume tires for some off road use.

    I want to contact salsa to see what other cranksets can be used.


    On the flip side the fargo seems to have leaned a little more towards mountain bike with smaller chainrings for 2017 vs 2016, but largely unchanged spec wise other than cleareance for plus size tires.


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  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    In my conversation with the rep, the $1k pricepoint has been something that's been long-requested, but the product managers couldn't pull it off with available components and get the overall quality they wanted. Apparently, the SRAM NX groupset is a big part of enabling that pricepoint. I see they're also making use of the much less expensive Sunrace cassettes instead of the SRAM ones. Looks like they worked to hit that pricepoint on several different models.
    The thing that I'm most impressed with the Timberjack builds (NX and GX) is that you are getting a pretty darn decent fork for your cash. Way better than a low-end Suntour or something.
    Oh noes. I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbandt View Post
    I've been researching it all afternoon. I'm torn between fargo and vaya. I wish it came with smaller chainrings, but I like the increased cleareance for 50mm tires. I like utility and it seems like a good option for a commuter and still be able to put some higher volume tires for some off road use.
    I agree.

    Vaya is a great allrounder and that carbon fork + 2" tire clearance improves a lot.
    But that 50-34 crank makes it too fast, I expected a 1x11 version just like Kona Sutra LTD, Awol Comp, Marin 4 corners...

  124. #124
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    I just noticed the prices for the Timberjack. Wow. Very affordable.

    I like the Vaya's increased clearance.

    It appears the Fargo comes with fender mounts. Yay! I still want a Fargo but just don't know if this will be the year. I'm very tempted to get a frame and swap over parts from my Krampus. Such a super versatile bike.

    If I had easier access to trails and more time I'd be super fired up about the other bikes, especially the Pony Rustler.
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  125. #125
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    Anyone know if the Fargo frameset will be available with the steel fork? I hope so. If not, I'd likely look towards getting the complete steel build and swapping over the wheels from the Krampus. All of this is assuming the fit works for me.
    Last edited by dfltroll; 07-27-2016 at 12:22 PM. Reason: no vs know, what's wrong with me?
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  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    Anyone no if the Fargo frameset will be available with the steel fork? I hope so. If not, I'd likely look towards getting the complete steel build and swapping over the wheels from the Krampus. All of this is assuming the fit works for me.
    It looks like it will be from the article. It will likely be the lower specd bike with 2x up front. My guess is final spec details won't be available for a couple more months as the 2017 version isn't available until November.

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  127. #127
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    It's cool to increase the Vaya tire clearance but quality tires seem to max out around 38-42c. After that you're getting into harsh heavy mtb or world touring tires.
    You change your own flats? Support your LBS and pay them to instead.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volsung View Post
    It's cool to increase the Vaya tire clearance but quality tires seem to max out around 38-42c. After that you're getting into harsh heavy mtb or world touring tires.
    WTB is coming out with a 45c version of the Riddler next month, and their Nine Line 2.0 is also a great option for applications like this - neither harsh/heavy nor 'world touring' just a good, reasonably lightweight tire with fast-rolling, low-block tread. I've been running Nine Line 2.0s on my Fargo for a while now and they are great. Not clunky, "MTB" feeling at all, but still good traction on rougher stuff.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  129. #129
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    The Timberjack 27.5 GX1 in Matte Khaki looks really good. This forum is not good for my wallet!

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    WTB is coming out with a 45c version of the Riddler next month, and their Nine Line 2.0 is also a great option for applications like this - neither harsh/heavy nor 'world touring' just a good, reasonably lightweight tire with fast-rolling, low-block tread. I've been running Nine Line 2.0s on my Fargo for a while now and they are great. Not clunky, "MTB" feeling at all, but still good traction on rougher stuff.
    Good info here. I too was under the notion that there wasn't much between 40 mm and a full blown mtb tire of 2+".

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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volsung View Post
    It's cool to increase the Vaya tire clearance but quality tires seem to max out around 38-42c. After that you're getting into harsh heavy mtb or world touring tires.
    I'd be happy as can be if Specialized would make their Trigger Pro in size 44(ish) tubeless. They have the Trigger Pro at 38c, then the Trigger Sport at 42c and 47c, but the Sport isn't tubeless. *grumble*
    just ride.

  132. #132
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    I ran Nine Lines on my Vaya! They measured out to be 48mm which is the max on my 2014 MY frame. In fact, I had to take the bolt out of the chain stay bridge in order for them to fit.

    There's a pretty big difference between the ride quality of a mountain bike tire and a high TPI road tire. The tires I'm talking about are the soft n supple road stuff by Panaracer, ie Compass or Soma. MTB tires have a stiffer sidewalls, even in the 120 TPI flavors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volsung View Post
    There's a pretty big difference between the ride quality of a mountain bike tire and a high TPI road tire. The tires I'm talking about are the soft n supple road stuff by Panaracer, ie Compass or Soma. MTB tires have a stiffer sidewalls, even in the 120 TPI flavors.
    Gotcha. I thought you were referring more to dirt/gravel/mild trail tires.

    I ran some Nano 40s on my Fargo at one point. They're a good tire, but I didn't like them anywhere near as much as the Nine Lines. The latter felt a lot more supple and cushy to me than the Nanos. But I stay away from pavement as much as possible, so true 'soft and supple' road tires are outside my experience to comment on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junglejay View Post
    No comments on the Vaya GX? I wonder how light it is and whether the carbon fork makes the bike more acceptable for unloaded pavement use...


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    That's a bike I'd really like to check out. The price seems really nice for everything you are getting. I also dig the orange. Cool color
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    Am I the only one excited about this bike?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    I really like this bike. The midstay is crazy short. I can only imagine how lively of ride this will be. Can anyone add some thoughts....I like!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Am I the only one excited about this bike?
    Is be more excited is it wasn't so. ...eh...."uniqe-lookinh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Am I the only one excited about this bike?
    I ride an El Mariachi that I was looking to replace. No, I am not excited, actually quite the contrary. It's ugly IMO as well as no longer a bike I can use. And the Timberjack is just a buckboard like rest of the alum ht's. Not excited at all. Hello Advocate Hayduke...

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    It's weird that bikes from unique "indy" brands like Salsa and bikes from the big 3 are starting to look very similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomikazi View Post
    I ride an El Mariachi that I was looking to replace. No, I am not excited, actually quite the contrary. It's ugly IMO as well as no longer a bike I can use. And the Timberjack is just a buckboard like rest of the alum ht's. Not excited at all. Hello Advocate Hayduke...
    I think the bike is unique looking, but looks like a fun ride. The bottom chain is free and clear. Never seen anything like that.


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    I think it's a great move. The El Mar design has been picked up by Surly, and perhaps All City Log Lady. They both make great versatile steel bikes.

    Salsa is Adventure by Bike right? All these bikes have that ability?

    Interesting to see how the Heller Shagamaw compares to the Woodsmoke for $400 less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    I think it's a great move. The El Mar design has been picked up by Surly, and perhaps All City Log Lady. They both make great versatile steel bikes.

    Salsa is Adventure by Bike right? All these bikes have that ability?

    Interesting to see how the Heller Shagamaw compares to the Woodsmoke for $400 less.
    It's no secret that for remote bikepacking, most prefer steel/ti hardtail mtb. "Adventure by bike", yet ditched both of these style bikes. I have been sworn to Salsa for many years. With the recent rei gig, coupled with making same bikes as others, I no longer even condider them an "indy" brand. Seems they are just trying to make the "big 3" the "big 4".
    Agree, Surly still gets it... but Im leaning toward the Advocate hayduke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Am I the only one excited about this bike?
    I doubt it. Seems like a lot of people are excited about it, and I bet it will be a pretty good seller.

    Personally, I'm curious about it, but not 'excited.' My Hayduke has become my standard for judging plus-size hardtails, and while there are some cool/interesting things going on with the Woodsmoke, I'm not convinced it's going to have the real-world versatility of something like the Hayduke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomikazi View Post
    It's no secret that for remote bikepacking, most prefer steel/ti hardtail mtb. "Adventure by bike", yet ditched both of these style bikes. I have been sworn to Salsa for many years. With the recent rei gig, coupled with making same bikes as others, I no longer even condider them an "indy" brand. Seems they are just trying to make the "big 3" the "big 4".
    Agree, Surly still gets it... but Im leaning toward the Advocate hayduke.
    Isn't Surly and Salsa the same company?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Isn't Surly and Salsa the same company?
    Same "parent" company, QBP. It's a personal thing for me as well. Back in 80's Salsa's were one of THE bikes to have in my circle. So it's a nostalgia type thing as well. I've been "in bed" with steel longer than I've been in bed with my wife

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    I think it's a great move. The El Mar design has been picked up by Surly, and perhaps All City Log Lady. They both make great versatile steel bikes.

    Salsa is Adventure by Bike right? All these bikes have that ability?

    Interesting to see how the Heller Shagamaw compares to the Woodsmokae for $400 less.
    El Mar has been picked by Surly?

    Heller is similar and cool looking too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    El Mar has been picked by Surly?

    Heller is similar and cool looking too.
    Mariachi has not been "picked up" by Surly, assume he was thinking about the KM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Isn't Surly and Salsa the same company?
    The correct answer is that they are separate brands/companies owned by the same parent company. Much like Dorel owns Cannondale, Mongoose, GT, Schwinn, and Pacific. Surly and Salsa are run as completely separate entities by Quality Bicycle Parts.
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    I commented on the "no more El Mar" thread. I feel that they have lost a bit of their soul with the latest product but my desires may be in the minority. I prefer steel unless it's a full suspension rig and that's part of it. Hopefully, QBP doesn't do the same thing with Surly.

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    Salsa lost their flavor when Tim Krueger left. That's why the Advocates are all spicy and the Salsas are all extra mild.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volsung View Post
    Salsa lost their flavor when Tim Krueger left. That's why the Advocates are all spicy and the Salsas are all extra mild.
    I'd be all about the Hayduke and Seldom Seen if they didn't have PF.
    Oh noes. I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcaino View Post
    I'd be all about the Hayduke and Seldom Seen if they didn't have PF.
    +1.

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    Just throw a Chris King BB on and fuggedaboutit. Seriously.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Just throw a Chris King BB on and fuggedaboutit. Seriously.
    Sure, maybe they can just include one with the frame...
    Oh noes. I'm going to drink the Kool-Aid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hsakkire View Post
    I commented on the "no more El Mar" thread. I feel that they have lost a bit of their soul with the latest product but my desires may be in the minority. I prefer steel unless it's a full suspension rig and that's part of it. Hopefully, QBP doesn't do the same thing with Surly.
    First off, I want to put it out there that I am a steel guy. It is my preference in frame materials/ride quality.

    That said, as a bike shop employee at a shop that carries Salsa amongst other brands that do steel, I can say with some certainty that consumers, (average Joe & Jills) don't see why the spec is worse on steel frames and better on aluminum frames. In other words, almost all the customers we see buy on the value they feel is in the parts bolted to a frame. "Steel feel" is a nefarious subject to most of these folks and it doesn't translate to "value". To most average cyclists, steel is "heavier" and aluminum is "lighter" while carbon fiber is "lightest". And light sells.

    This isn't just local to the shop I work at either. This is why Salsa is moving away from steel and getting into frame materials that folks that are not bike nerds will understand to be "better".

    Dealers are also asking for a less expensive mtb product for the floors of their shops. Steel frames inherently cost more to produce in Asia than aluminum ones do, because the factories specialize in that material over that of steel or titanium.

    So, the move to make more aluminum stuff is being done as a business decision, as I see it. That and Surly is not going to ever do anything but steel, so there is that to consider as well. Maybe I am all wrong, and if anyone has a better explanation, I am all for reading it, but this is what I am seeing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    First off, I want to put it out there that I am a steel guy. It is my preference in frame materials/ride quality.

    That said, as a bike shop employee at a shop that carries Salsa amongst other brands that do steel, I can say with some certainty that consumers, (average Joe & Jills) don't see why the spec is worse on steel frames and better on aluminum frames. In other words, almost all the customers we see buy on the value they feel is in the parts bolted to a frame. "Steel feel" is a nefarious subject to most of these folks and it doesn't translate to "value". To most average cyclists, steel is "heavier" and aluminum is "lighter" while carbon fiber is "lightest". And light sells.

    This isn't just local to the shop I work at either. This is why Salsa is moving away from steel and getting into frame materials that folks that are not bike nerds will understand to be "better".

    Dealers are also asking for a less expensive mtb product for the floors of their shops. Steel frames inherently cost more to produce in Asia than aluminum ones do, because the factories specialize in that material over that of steel or titanium.

    So, the move to make more aluminum stuff is being done as a business decision, as I see it. That and Surly is not going to ever do anything but steel, so there is that to consider as well. Maybe I am all wrong, and if anyone has a better explanation, I am all for reading it, but this is what I am seeing.
    Quote Originally Posted by tomikazi View Post
    It's no secret that for remote bikepacking, most prefer steel/ti hardtail mtb. "Adventure by bike", yet ditched both of these style bikes. I have been sworn to Salsa for many years. With the recent rei gig, coupled with making same bikes as others, I no longer even condider them an "indy" brand. Seems they are just trying to make the "big 3" the "big 4".
    Yeah, What that guy said.

    IMO we have enough choices for alloy and carbon, we need more options in the niches, and companies willing to create them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    First off, I want to put it out there that I am a steel guy. It is my preference in frame materials/ride quality.

    That said, as a bike shop employee at a shop that carries Salsa amongst other brands that do steel, I can say with some certainty that consumers, (average Joe & Jills) don't see why the spec is worse on steel frames and better on aluminum frames. In other words, almost all the customers we see buy on the value they feel is in the parts bolted to a frame. "Steel feel" is a nefarious subject to most of these folks and it doesn't translate to "value". To most average cyclists, steel is "heavier" and aluminum is "lighter" while carbon fiber is "lightest". And light sells.

    This isn't just local to the shop I work at either. This is why Salsa is moving away from steel and getting into frame materials that folks that are not bike nerds will understand to be "better".

    Dealers are also asking for a less expensive mtb product for the floors of their shops. Steel frames inherently cost more to produce in Asia than aluminum ones do, because the factories specialize in that material over that of steel or titanium.

    So, the move to make more aluminum stuff is being done as a business decision, as I see it. That and Surly is not going to ever do anything but steel, so there is that to consider as well. Maybe I am all wrong, and if anyone has a better explanation, I am all for reading it, but this is what I am seeing.
    Agreed.

    With that said, this "business decision" makes them more like everybody else IMO. I have no desire to be like everybody else. If I did I would by one from the "big 3". Seems like Salsa is trying to make it the "big 4". I love my El Mariachi's, both of them. I have loved many Salsa bikes for years.

    I have no problem per se with Salsa's business decision, totally understand. That doesn't mean I'm going to change my preference and ride aluminum or a Salsa Stache...or whatever it's called.

    I look at it as good news after the initial shock. I'll have my updated redesigned El Mariachi... it's just called a "Hayduke" now. Probably why Tim left in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    First off, I want to put it out there that I am a steel guy. It is my preference in frame materials/ride quality.

    That said, as a bike shop employee at a shop that carries Salsa amongst other brands that do steel, I can say with some certainty that consumers, (average Joe & Jills) don't see why the spec is worse on steel frames and better on aluminum frames. In other words, almost all the customers we see buy on the value they feel is in the parts bolted to a frame. "Steel feel" is a nefarious subject to most of these folks and it doesn't translate to "value". To most average cyclists, steel is "heavier" and aluminum is "lighter" while carbon fiber is "lightest". And light sells.

    This isn't just local to the shop I work at either. This is why Salsa is moving away from steel and getting into frame materials that folks that are not bike nerds will understand to be "better".

    Dealers are also asking for a less expensive mtb product for the floors of their shops. Steel frames inherently cost more to produce in Asia than aluminum ones do, because the factories specialize in that material over that of steel or titanium.

    So, the move to make more aluminum stuff is being done as a business decision, as I see it. That and Surly is not going to ever do anything but steel, so there is that to consider as well. Maybe I am all wrong, and if anyone has a better explanation, I am all for reading it, but this is what I am seeing.
    You know I was/am one of those novice inexperienced folks that thinks lighter is better because it allows you to be faster and narrower tires make you faster as well. I've learned real fast that for me comfort trumps speed even though the aforementioned isn't always the case. I'm picking up a 2016 Fargo X7 tomorrow and am hopeful that it will be more comfortable, and I don't think it'll be that much slower. So I'm hoping to learn to appreciate what other steel fans have been preaching all along.

    On another note I read somewhere recently where somebody was bagging on the new vaya because of the low end 8 and 9 speed options. Personally I think it's smart business wise. Most like myself getting into cycling at the 1000-1500 range don't fully understand what that is getting you. Its hard to justify when ***** sporting goods or REI have what look to be decent 500 options. So it makes sense that a good all purpose bike like the Vaya that can handle most all terrains for N=1people be available at a lower price point. Then later on those folks may upgrade to something better or have multiple bikes. Has salsa lost some of its niche appeal? Maybe so, but I still think its a good brand that offers a quality product.

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    I was disappointed to read that the Woodsmoke in 29+ will not fit a front derailleur. A 32-tooth chainring x 42 rear gearing results in appx. a 22.8 gear inch, which is not low enough for me.

    The unique chain stay design would make a belt-drive Rolloff an easy addition as well, but Salsa tells me that the one-off spacers they used to install a Rolloff on a Boost 148 Deadwood will not work with the Woodsmoke dropout design.

    I suppose a Rohloff on a carbon framed MTB is a bit of an anomaly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcaino View Post
    Sure, maybe they can just include one with the frame...
    Doubtful. But that's why people buy frames and build up what they want from there - because they have specific preferences for components. Or, if you prefer to buy a complete bike, you make compromises.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    First off, I want to put it out there that I am a steel guy. It is my preference in frame materials/ride quality.

    That said, as a bike shop employee at a shop that carries Salsa amongst other brands that do steel, I can say with some certainty that consumers, (average Joe & Jills) don't see why the spec is worse on steel frames and better on aluminum frames. In other words, almost all the customers we see buy on the value they feel is in the parts bolted to a frame. "Steel feel" is a nefarious subject to most of these folks and it doesn't translate to "value". To most average cyclists, steel is "heavier" and aluminum is "lighter" while carbon fiber is "lightest". And light sells.

    This isn't just local to the shop I work at either. This is why Salsa is moving away from steel and getting into frame materials that folks that are not bike nerds will understand to be "better".

    Dealers are also asking for a less expensive mtb product for the floors of their shops. Steel frames inherently cost more to produce in Asia than aluminum ones do, because the factories specialize in that material over that of steel or titanium.

    So, the move to make more aluminum stuff is being done as a business decision, as I see it. That and Surly is not going to ever do anything but steel, so there is that to consider as well. Maybe I am all wrong, and if anyone has a better explanation, I am all for reading it, but this is what I am seeing.
    I think that your reasoning is sound and I agree with why they did it. But as tomikazi stated, they now compete with the big three and that's a slippery slope. They want to now sell more volume to the masses and the masses can't tell the differences between Specialized, Trek, etc and Salsa. Further, there won't be much difference so now here we go with price yet again. Salsa was never high volume for the masses.

    While they will increase their volumes they'll do so at the loss of most of us bike geeks and be left as a small fish in a sea of 3 big fish. Honestly they're just aluminum framed bikes that you can find anywhere. Any subtle differences, as you rightly stated, will be lost on the average Joe and Jill.

    It's a business decision with inherent risk. Staying their traditional course has risk as well. I'm just bummed as they no longer appeal to me and I've always loved what they've done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hsakkire View Post
    I think that your reasoning is sound and I agree with why they did it. But as tomikazi stated, they now compete with the big three and that's a slippery slope. They want to now sell more volume to the masses and the masses can't tell the differences between Specialized, Trek, etc and Salsa. Further, there won't be much difference so now here we go with price yet again. Salsa was never high volume for the masses.

    While they will increase their volumes they'll do so at the loss of most of us bike geeks and be left as a small fish in a sea of 3 big fish. Honestly they're just aluminum framed bikes that you can find anywhere. Any subtle differences, as you rightly stated, will be lost on the average Joe and Jill.

    It's a business decision with inherent risk. Staying their traditional course has risk as well. I'm just bummed as they no longer appeal to me and I've always loved what they've done.
    You're only talking about 1 model. Bikes like the Fargo and Vaya are still very appealing to the bike geeks. They may have lost those looking for a regular 29er hardtail but that is a small portion of what they do. Plenty of other cool bikes for those looking for something different
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    @GOTA you are correct. I'm primarily discussing the Timberjack. The Woodsmoke isn't for the masses in my opinion due to cost and carbon construction.

    The Vaya and Fargo still rock it for us geeks.

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    Look--ALL frame makers and bike makers are in it to make money. The small guys don't make bikes to compete with the big three because they can't make money doing that.

    I think Salsa has just looked at the numbers on the ElMar and decided to follow the consumer's choices.

    TrekGiantSpez has started to produce bikes that cut into the once-indie market. Fat bikes? Gravel bikes? Plus bikes?

    Not to mention a lot of people on here griping are not retail buyers.

    How about we talk about what they are doing this year? Any first-hand reports from SaddleDrive? New Fargo/Vaya/Smoke?

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    I guarantee that the Woodsmoke, the new Mukluk, the Vaya, the new Fargo, the Cutthroat, the Bucksaw, and others are very attractive to "bike geeks." The timberjack is also very attractive to bike geeks on a budget or bike geeks in their infancy. For such folks, you cant beat a frame for $399 or a complete for $1000 or $1400 that they can ride until they brake sh#t and then upgrade as necessary.

    These bikes all have clearance for and are designed to run fat tires, respectively. I doubt many people can tell the difference in frame feel between steel and aluminum running 2.4+ tires at 25 psi or lower, especially if you add a good carbon seatpost and handlebars. If you want steel, there are tons of custom makers, or Surly. I also note that Kid claimed in the comments on the "presenting our update line" blog post that Ti is not 100% out and may return in the future for the right model. Change is good.

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    I'd buy an SS Timberjack before I bought an SS Karate Monkey, just sayin

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    I'd buy an SS Timberjack before I bought an SS Karate Monkey, just sayin
    Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    You're only talking about 1 model. Bikes like the Fargo and Vaya are still very appealing to the bike geeks. They may have lost those looking for a regular 29er hardtail but that is a small portion of what they do. Plenty of other cool bikes for those looking for something different
    I disagrre with the "small portion of what they do" part. Their slogan is "adventure by bike" and they 86'd the most adventurous bike they have. Yes, the Fargo is an adventure type bike, but I wouldn't take the Fargo through half the stuff I've taken my loaded ElMar through/down. The ElMar rode almost as good loaded as it did unloaded, enabling me to take it down very chunky steeps without a thought. Not so when I rode a Fargo, even with flatbars.

    I have no problem with them changing their business model, gotta make money. But if they can't figure out how to do it with a steel hardtail 29r mtb they need to ditch the "adventure" slogan as well IMO.

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    Oh man that woodsmoke frame. Looks like a hardtail URT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    I'd buy an SS Timberjack before I bought an SS Karate Monkey, just sayin
    Shorter stem and squishy fork? More bang for your buck?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcaino View Post
    I'd be all about the Hayduke and Seldom Seen if they didn't have PF.
    I know nothing about Advocate but have they got some kind of Edward Abbey thing going on? Bet he would have loved that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomikazi View Post
    I disagrre with the "small portion of what they do" part. Their slogan is "adventure by bike" and they 86'd the most adventurous bike they have. Yes, the Fargo is an adventure type bike, but I wouldn't take the Fargo through half the stuff I've taken my loaded ElMar through/down. The ElMar rode almost as good loaded as it did unloaded, enabling me to take it down very chunky steeps without a thought. Not so when I rode a Fargo, even with flatbars.

    I have no problem with them changing their business model, gotta make money. But if they can't figure out how to do it with a steel hardtail 29r mtb they need to ditch the "adventure" slogan as well IMO.
    So now they have to change their slogan because they don't have a steel hardtail?

    Right now they have the PR which they market as a Tour Divide bike. They have the Warbird as a gravel race bike. There is a even a tandam mountain bike. They have fat bikes, touring bikes, full suspension mountain bikes.....that's plenty for any adventure.

    I like steel hardtails too. I still ride my Jamis Dragon and you should still ride your El Mar. No one is forcing someone to get rid of a bike they enjoy. I also have no plans to sell my Salsa Colossal. There won't be a new one but that doesn't mean I can't keep riding my gen 1 bombpop blue Colossal.

    I remember when people who disappointed that they discontinued the Casseroll and the Dos Niner. That's the nature of the business. Keep riding and loving your El Mar. No one can ever take that away from you.
    He who dares....wins!

  172. #172
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    I don't think you understand. Salsa discontinued the El Mar and that applies to existing models as well.
    You change your own flats? Support your LBS and pay them to instead.

  173. #173
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    Woodsmoke seems to have stirred up a bunch if emotions in a bunch of other threads...but why? I don't get it.
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  174. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Woodsmoke seems to have stirred up a bunch if emotions in a bunch of other threads...but why? I don't get it.
    I can only speak for myself.
    I'm old and "set in my ways", I don't like change. I finally got used to front suspension last year. I do love 29" wheels, so there is a change I embraced.
    ...and I'm grumpy, very very grumpy.
    I will love the woodsmoke, in about 20 years.
    Now... time for a Mickeys big mouth and some Welcome Back Kotter...

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afun View Post
    Woodsmoke seems to have stirred up a bunch if emotions in a bunch of other threads...but why? I don't get it.
    is it because it's as ugly as a hat full of arseholes with all the good ones taken out?

  176. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomikazi View Post
    I can only speak for myself.
    I'm old and "set in my ways", I don't like change. I finally got used to front suspension last year. I do love 29" wheels, so there is a change I embraced.
    ...and I'm grumpy, very very grumpy.
    I will love the woodsmoke, in about 20 years.
    Now... time for a Mickeys big mouth and some Welcome Back Kotter...
    Funny! So you are like the "angry single speeder". I'm new to the world of MTB, my first two bikes are steel fully rigid. A 29er and 27.5 plus. I love'em both equally. I'm having a hard time buying something with suspension. I have been successful riding most of the Singletrack in my area. I have lots of singletrack.

    So I'm moonlighting the WoodSmoke. It's not ugly, but super unique. Please don't talk about the Trek.
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  177. #177
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    Timberjack First Ride Report

    http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3...QmbLfvDs5q&s=1

    Woodsmoke First Ride Report....and it's a good one! The bike is fast...too fast!

    http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3...5Axndjivwu&s=1
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  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomikazi View Post
    I ride an El Mariachi that I was looking to replace. No, I am not excited, actually quite the contrary. It's ugly IMO as well as no longer a bike I can use. And the Timberjack is just a buckboard like rest of the alum ht's. Not excited at all. Hello Advocate Hayduke...
    Look at a Vassago VerHauen.

    edit: The Timberjack at $999 is a good deal esp with a Manitou air fork and the i23 wheelset. My '13 Felt Nine cost the same with a crappy Dart and Suntour parts all over the place. Timberjack reminds me a of the original Stache 6 (pictured for nostalgia) I had which was lower spec'd like the NX but prettier. Was a really fun AM-ish hardtail though and the Trek retailed for $1400. I think an entry-level AM hardtail is a smart move by Salsa. All this said my next bike is going to be that charcoal/powder blue carbon Spearfish with it's weird-a$$ Boost front and the 142 rear.

    2017 Salsa's ?-imag0081.jpg
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  179. #179
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  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Car View Post
    I got that email too. It's the strangest promotion I've ever seen. When I make a large investment in a bike I'm not thinking that I want 2. I'd rather just get a discount on the bike the 1 bike that I'm interested in
    He who dares....wins!

  181. #181
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    I wasn't going to buy two bikes but I have 7k burning a hole in my pocket and can't think of a better use for it.

  182. #182
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    Would it be possible to build a Woodsmoke for mid-long distance touring?

  183. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcookem View Post
    Would it be possible to build a Woodsmoke for mid-long distance touring?
    Nope, only short distance or long distance touring because the carbon on the woodsmoke would self-implode or self-immolate if you used it for "mid-long distance touring." Sorry, couldn't help myself.

  184. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    I got that email too. It's the strangest promotion I've ever seen. When I make a large investment in a bike I'm not thinking that I want 2. I'd rather just get a discount on the bike the 1 bike that I'm interested in
    It is a rather strange promotion indeed, but I applaud them for trying something a little different. It's a rather good deal and has me thinking of ways I could make it happen.
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  185. #185
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    I don't understand. Sorry if there's a mistake, I'm not a native English speaker.

  186. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcookem View Post
    I don't understand. Sorry if there's a mistake, I'm not a native English speaker.
    He's being snarky :P

    You can use anything for touring, it's a question of how comfortable you will be with how much you are carrying.

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcookem View Post
    I don't understand. Sorry if there's a mistake, I'm not a native English speaker.
    I'm sorry. I was just commenting on how silly people get with their bike categories. It is a bike, you can put bikepacking bags on it or maybe racks with the right alternator rack or fork, so the distance you can ride it touring is only limited by your legs, ass and time off work.

  188. #188
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    Ok thanks guys. I was mainly trying to understand if the short chainstay may be a problem. Maybe not a very "stable" bike?

  189. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdxfixed View Post
    I'd buy an SS Timberjack before I bought an SS Karate Monkey, just sayin
    +1

    And I'm thinking very hard about buying the frame to do just that.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrousjunky View Post
    +1

    And I'm thinking very hard about buying the frame to do just that.
    Can you guys elaborate on why you'd rather a Timberjack over the KM?

  191. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop01 View Post
    Can you guys elaborate on why you'd rather a Timberjack over the KM?
    1- I greatly prefer the alternator dropouts to horizontal dropouts
    2- I like the geometry a little better on the Timberjack than the KM. Both have really good geometry, it's just nit picking for personal preference.
    3- I have a rigid steel Singular Puffin SS fat bike. If I build another SS bike it will be a plus bike with a 120-140mm fork, used for endurance races and really long rides here in western NC. So I would rather save weight on the AL frame to make it as light as possible while still having a good stiff squishy fork and aggressive tires.

    Both the Timberjack and new KM are both great frames, also both allow use of 135,142, & 148 hubs. You really can't go wrong with either, the Timberjack just fits what I'm after a little more.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  192. #192
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    I can certainly say this - i got to demo the Timber in CO and it was a freekin blast. As a guy w about $6500 (not bragging - almost a bit embarrassed really) in his current carbon all mountain ride, its just a good thing they didn't have inventory to sell or I woulda bought the timber on the spot... still not sure if its "the" b+/29 hardtail (i "believe" i want a little more aggressive geo) - but it is a bike I could easily and happily own, and likely the bike i can use to get my wife to try and enjoy the sport with me. for $1399 its a ridiculous value. It may well be a gateway drug for noobs but as a seasoned rider its a heckuva bike, value and leaves room for other purchases or upgrades.

  193. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamper11 View Post
    I can certainly say this - i got to demo the Timber in CO and it was a freekin blast. As a guy w about $6500 (not bragging - almost a bit embarrassed really) in his current carbon all mountain ride, its just a good thing they didn't have inventory to sell or I woulda bought the timber on the spot... still not sure if its "the" b+/29 hardtail (i "believe" i want a little more aggressive geo) - but it is a bike I could easily and happily own, and likely the bike i can use to get my wife to try and enjoy the sport with me. for $1399 its a ridiculous value. It may well be a gateway drug for noobs but as a seasoned rider its a heckuva bike, value and leaves room for other purchases or upgrades.
    I want Woodsmoke or a New KM....but you got me looking hard at the Timberjack
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  194. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrousjunky View Post
    1- I greatly prefer the alternator dropouts to horizontal dropouts
    2- I like the geometry a little better on the Timberjack than the KM. Both have really good geometry, it's just nit picking for personal preference.
    3- I have a rigid steel Singular Puffin SS fat bike. If I build another SS bike it will be a plus bike with a 120-140mm fork, used for endurance races and really long rides here in western NC. So I would rather save weight on the AL frame to make it as light as possible while still having a good stiff squishy fork and aggressive tires.

    Both the Timberjack and new KM are both great frames, also both allow use of 135,142, & 148 hubs. You really can't go wrong with either, the Timberjack just fits what I'm after a little more.
    Good reasoning. I just wish the Timberjack was steel. Al hardtails just beat me up too much.

  195. #195
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    I'm actually very excited about the new Timberjack and I'm far from a newbie- been riding mountain bikes for over 25 years. I used to be a "steel only" guy, and still am when it comes to road bikes, but I've been really happy with the aluminum Niner EMD I've been riding for the past 5 years. With high volume, low pressure, tubeless tires I don't feel the harshness of the aluminum frame like I did back in the '90s and, in fact, appreciate the lightness and lateral stiffness. I've been searching for a replacement for the EMD because it has a straight steerer and the fork is on it's last legs, and the Timberjack is exactly what I've been looking for.

    -Frame only option so I can build it how I want.
    -Single speed ability
    -Able to take 29 and 27.5+ tires with options for different axles
    -Slacker geometry, but not super slack which is perfect for the flat, flowy XC trails I ride.
    - Doesn't weigh a ton (I presume)

    All in a $400 frame? That's insane!! The bike snobs at the local trails can eat sh!!!t. I could spend $1000-$2000 for a new HT frame, but why?

  196. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Good reasoning. I just wish the Timberjack was steel. Al hardtails just beat me up too much.
    AOK, this is an old way of thinking when we use to run much higher pressures in tires. its only a placebo effect anymore. buy a steel bike for its long term durability (touring), carbon for weight and outright strength, and Aluminum for price*/weight/ durability balance.

    *Mainly price
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  197. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Good reasoning. I just wish the Timberjack was steel. Al hardtails just beat me up too much.
    That's way less of a concern with plus tires.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  198. #198
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    Understand about the Plus tires - I used to own a Krampus - but I like the option to run normal 29er wheels as well.

    As for this being an "old way of thinking" I have to disagree. I have been running wide rims / lower pressures for years and I still find that an AL hardtail rides harsher than other materials.

  199. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Understand about the Plus tires - I used to own a Krampus - but I like the option to run normal 29er wheels as well.

    As for this being an "old way of thinking" I have to disagree. I have been running wide rims / lower pressures for years and I still find that an AL hardtail rides harsher than other materials.
    Yeah understand there, I would probably have a 29er wheelset for some applications too. For you then, KM probably is better or take a look at the new Boost N9. That's the other one I have my eye on, just won't take quite as wide of a B+ setup.

    Also take a look at the 2016 Jabberwocky.
    "I ride to clear my head, my head is clearer when I'm riding SS. Therefore, I choose to ride SS."~ Fullrange Drew

  200. #200
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    I was in a shop yesterday that had a 2016 Vaya X9 in my size. I took it for a test ride, and really liked it. They had it marked at $1999, which is MSRP. They had some 2017s on the rack, too. Would it be reasonable to expect a discount on the 2016? If so, how much. I certainly don't need another bike, but at the right price, I can see making good use of the Vaya.

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