When did Mountain bikes get more expensive than Motocross Bikes- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    When did Mountain bikes get more expensive than Motocross Bikes

    Okay, so for the last couple of years I have been drooling over a higher end full suspension MTB. Now as I go into shops, I see many bikes that cost more than a brand new Yamaha YZ450 with less technology onboard. Sure the frames are carbon but think about shocks that have to be built to handle 400+ lbs bike and rider load, engines with Titanium valves, fuel injection, and that rev to over 12,500 rpm. Simply, I'm a little disturbed that an equal or less technology costs more. The MSRP on the YZ450F is $8490 and a Specialized S-Works Epic Carbon is $9900. Any thoughts???

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    If people pay it they will charge it.

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    Yep, as long as people pay it, the prices will continue to go up. Cycling is a VERY high markup sport.

    This was addressed in one of the big magazines recently, with 3 or 4 product managers defending the amount of R&D and cost of materials vs the motorcycle companies. They spun a nice web of bulls#!t in my opinion.

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    Cycling is a high markup sport?

    It is actually among the LOWEST, average profit margins of shops at years end is often 2-8%. And the manufacturing numbers are minuscule compared to moto parts/accessories.
    You clearly aren't in manufacturing.
    Or specialty sports retail...
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    I ride both, but with bicycles you have many choices up and down the priceline. You can buy a top line bicycle with all the goodies yet you can get an entry level that will work if your looking for the lower price.

    Try to find a worthy moto bike that is $2500.00, and not shaped for a kid. All are 7 plus grand, and what the moto industry needs is more trail/play bikes to return as in the 1970s. They are seeing that a bit, but still not as much as they should.

  6. #6
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    Economies of scale...

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    I too am intrigued that the 2 are very similar except one has an engine, fuel injection, and exhaust......yet the prices are nearly the same.

    I just love both sports, so it does not bother me much.


    I think its kinda like Coffee: you can pay 99cents for a cup at a gas station or you can pay 5 dollars or more at Starbucks, Caribou, Gloria Jeans, etc. (its all in what you like and prefer.)
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    When Scott can sell 5-10 thousand Genius 650's in every country, every year, the price will be $1000 each. You can bank on that.
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    economy of scale? Or something like that. There are a dizzying number of small mtb brands.

    4 big dirt bike brands? Not sure about KTM prices.

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    It's our own darn fault

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    When Scott can sell 5-10 thousand Genius 650's in every country, every year, the price will be $1000 each. You can bank on that.
    This is a big part of it. Like cacalacky posted earlier, it is economy of scale. Most people who have not been involved in manufacturing don't understand this.

    The numbers of that model motorcycle that are sold each year make the cost per unit go down. In a simple example, if the costs of R&D and machinery set ups are spread out over ten thousand units versus 2 thousand, it makes the cost per unit less.

    Also, things that are bought from outside vendors get better pricing as the volume goes up. For example, buy a single shock and the price might be $500, buy 2 thousand shocks and the price might be $450 each, buy 10 thousand and they might be $350 each. Blow that example out to some big scale like telling a tire manufacturer that you will contract to buy a million tires from them if they sharpen their pencil and give you a hefty price break on the sizes you want and you are talking some real savings. They can do the same thing with many parts across their product lines.

    The motorcycle most certainly has many parts that are common to several different models as well. If the titanium valves used in that 450 are the same valves used in some street bikes, 4 wheelers, snowmobile engines or whatever, they get pretty cheap each. The same is true for transmission gears, bearings, bolts, and so on.

    The guys building those motorcycles are very smart, good business people, and they have the leverage of a bigger sales volume to work with.

    The guys building the bikes are smart and good business people too, but they just don't have the volume to leverage against their costs.

    All that said, I do think that the top end bikes are priced up to what the market will bear. Specialized in particular strikes me as charging a premium for the name. But hey, as long as people like them and are willing to pay the asking price, then that is what they will charge.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Cycling is a high markup sport?

    It is actually among the LOWEST, average profit margins of shops at years end is often 2-8%. And the manufacturing numbers are minuscule compared to moto parts/accessories.
    You clearly aren't in manufacturing.
    Or specialty sports retail...

    Cough....********.....cough. I work in a bike shop!

    2-8%? Seriously. Parts and components are usually priced at 100% markup!

    KTM can sell very high end motorcycles with top of the line parts for the same prices the big Japanese 4 charge. They make a VAST number of models, more than ANY of the big Japanese 4 offer in off road machines, and very similar price points. And they all support dozens of pro race teams. the bicycle companies make a LOT more on each bike than many people want to admit.

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    If markup is 2-8% then how does my LBS discount everything I buy 50% off retail? I buy everything from them and send them customers but I don think they are gonna want to lose money on me.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argo View Post
    If markup is 2-8% then how does my LBS discount everything I buy 50% off retail? I buy everything from them and send them customers but I don think they are gonna want to lose money on me.....
    In his defense, he said at years end, profit margins are 2-8%. And most shops would not last 2-4 years at those numbers. That's pretty bad.

    But markup is usually anywhere from 50-100% on everything but bikes.

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    So everyone is saying economies of scale, but do you really know how few racing motorcycles are sold each year? I think it would surprise you. I know of one large dealer here in Houston that only sells an average of 10 yz450's a year. Volume comes from the street bikes. I'm pretty sure that if you looked carefully Specialized and Yamaha sell a comparative number of units. Motorcycle companies are forced to source their shock and forks like bike manufacturers do as well. I know the R&D expense of something like a fuel injection system for a dirt bike probably tops a company like Specialized's yearly R&D budget for the entire line. I just think that the prices being charged at the top end are not proportionally equal to what you get in return. Everyone is right that if people pay it why not - but as I plan on buying a bike that costs more than a Nissan Versa car, I have to wonder why that price???

    To the person who states 2-8% margin - that might be true if someone beats you down on pricing, but don't you make it up in accessories and service? I was in the specialty outdoor business for over ten years, and we made a 40-50% markup on boots and clothing while only managing 20-30% on backpacks and tents. Gifts were often a huge markup, that is why most specialty outdoor dealers sell stuff like toys and birdfeeders. I think that most shops consider 20-30% a great margin on a bike, but plan on that customer spending another several hundred dollars a year on their habit.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    Cough....********.....cough. I work in a bike shop!

    2-8%? Seriously. Parts and components are usually priced at 100% markup!

    KTM can sell very high end motorcycles with top of the line parts for the same prices the big Japanese 4 charge. They make a VAST number of models, more than ANY of the big Japanese 4 offer in off road machines, and very similar price points. And they all support dozens of pro race teams. the bicycle companies make a LOT more on each bike than many people want to admit.

    Have you worked in other retail venues? 100% markup is commonplace for items retailing for $50 or so, above that it usually decreases steadily and higher end stuff is marked up about 40 %. Most bikes are between 35 and 40 %.

    This is in line with many other retail stores, and necessary for a business to survive and thrive.

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    A good question and one I have to answer every month at the shop. My answer, and I believe the answer of a company like Specialized is this. Bicycles often hit the same speeds as a motocross bike, they are engineered by very high paid men and women to hold up at those speeds while weighing 19 pounds and carrying a crazy lifetime warranty against defects. Although there is no motor the suspension and linkage are just as advanced, if not more so. If you look at a modern motocross bike it's nice but the frame, swingarm and wheels are just average. Not super trick alloy, not real clean welds . A modern high end bicycle with carbon rims, inertia valves carbon linkages is very hard to engineer to where it holds up to our abuse. Try to shed 20 to 30 pounds off a motocross bike and it'll cost you 4 grand more. Nobody races a stock mx bike at a high level either. those guys dump 4 to 5 grand in suspension upgrades, bars, tires, hubs, rims, spokes, engine work,dampers exhaust....... A bicycle racer racer will more or less compete at a world cup level on a stock bike such as an s works epic save for a tire swap or grip swap. I hope this helps.

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    true i keep saving for a better bike and i find myself saving still for the same bike for three years, its like walking to reach home, and your home walks away at the same speed. (i know i can use any other reference but im high. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by verdugomountainlocal View Post
    A good question and one I have to answer every month at the shop. My answer, and I believe the answer of a company like Specialized is this. Bicycles often hit the same speeds as a motocross bike, they are engineered by very high paid men and women to hold up at those speeds while weighing 19 pounds and carrying a crazy lifetime warranty against defects. Although there is no motor the suspension and linkage are just as advanced, if not more so. If you look at a modern motocross bike it's nice but the frame, swingarm and wheels are just average. Not super trick alloy, not real clean welds . A modern high end bicycle with carbon rims, inertia valves carbon linkages is very hard to engineer to where it holds up to our abuse. Try to shed 20 to 30 pounds off a motocross bike and it'll cost you 4 grand more. Nobody races a stock mx bike at a high level either. those guys dump 4 to 5 grand in suspension upgrades, bars, tires, hubs, rims, spokes, engine work,dampers exhaust....... A bicycle racer racer will more or less compete at a world cup level on a stock bike such as an s works epic save for a tire swap or grip swap. I hope this helps.
    Nope. World class DH racing probably averages less than half the speeds that motocross racers do. They also routinely jump 30+' INTO the air and travel 80+' THROUGH the air, landing and absorbing that hit of a 230 pound bike with a 150 pound rider. They must do this anywhere from 12-25 laps at a time. And they need to make 50-65 reliable HP! I wonder how many laps a carbon fiber motocross frame would last? The welds on my Honda are perfect by the way.

    Does anyone race a stock MTB? Nope. Each month a large magazine does a special writeup on a pro's bike. There's hardly anything "stock" about them...and the "value" they list is usually well over $10,000. So it's hardly fair to say the motorcycles are not stock...and claim that MTBs are.

    And while it's true that the big 4 Japanese will put cheaper rims, hubs, exhaust, etc on their motorcycles, that doesn't mean they are junk. You can upgrade those just like you can upgrade your Deore to XTR and Suntour to Fox. KTM sells many of their models already upgraded, at prices VERY competitive to the Japanese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    Nope. World class DH racing probably averages less than half the speeds that motocross racers do. They also routinely jump 30+' INTO the air and travel 80+' THROUGH the air, landing and absorbing that hit of a 230 pound bike with a 150 pound rider. They must do this anywhere from 12-25 laps at a time. And they need to make 50-65 reliable HP! I wonder how many laps a carbon fiber motocross frame would last? The welds on my Honda are perfect by the way.

    Does anyone race a stock MTB? Nope. Each month a large magazine does a special writeup on a pro's bike. There's hardly anything "stock" about them...and the "value" they list is usually well over $10,000. So it's hardly fair to say the motorcycles are not stock...and claim that MTBs are.

    And while it's true that the big 4 Japanese will put cheaper rims, hubs, exhaust, etc on their motorcycles, that doesn't mean they are junk. You can upgrade those just like you can upgrade your Deore to XTR and Suntour to Fox. KTM sells many of their models already upgraded, at prices VERY competitive to the Japanese.
    I still disagree. Most of the pros bikes, espcially xc are specd nearly stock as a manufacturer sells it. You can't do much to upgrade a Trek Superfly pro sl or an s works epic. A modern freeride guy will go just as fast down a trail as a guy who goes out and buys a CRF 450 in many cases. A full race MX bike has almost every part changed or modified to be copmpetitive. No doubt a frame made of carbon on an mx bike would not hold up but it does on a bicycle and that is a large part of the cost. I do think a new high end bicycle is priced way too high these days but I think the mx bikes are overpriced too. At least a ten thousand dollar bicycle is race ready. A new S works epic retails around 10 grand or so and has every trick part on it right out of the box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    Cough....********.....cough. I work in a bike shop!

    2-8%? Seriously. Parts and components are usually priced at 100% markup!

    t.
    Exactly...you work in a shop...I worked in one for 20, and owned one for 10. I am talking end of year profitability, not individual markup. And if your shop is getting 100% markup (keystone) on any significant hardgoods, you are charging 30-40% over MSRP. not to mention the difference between product actually sold at full retail, as opposed to what goes out the door at discount, end of season, last season, out of season, etc.
    Think 'bigger picture' for a moment.
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    I dont see anyone attempting to stop buying them. But maybe that will drive the price down, or the competition lower their prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mentalone View Post
    I dont see anyone attempting to stop buying them. But maybe that will drive the price down, or the competition lower their prices.
    Exactly.

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    There is definitely a mark up on bikes, but for what you get I don't think its that bad. A fully specd custom built bike will run you 7-10 grand where as a fully specd custom built atv/dirtbike can easily go past 20 grand. I used to race quads and I get a little sick any time I think about how much I dumped into my race machine. Could of put a down payment on a decent house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verdugomountainlocal View Post
    I still disagree. Most of the pros bikes, espcially xc are specd nearly stock as a manufacturer sells it. You can't do much to upgrade a Trek Superfly pro sl or an s works epic. A modern freeride guy will go just as fast down a trail as a guy who goes out and buys a CRF 450 in many cases. A full race MX bike has almost every part changed or modified to be copmpetitive. No doubt a frame made of carbon on an mx bike would not hold up but it does on a bicycle and that is a large part of the cost. I do think a new high end bicycle is priced way too high these days but I think the mx bikes are overpriced too. At least a ten thousand dollar bicycle is race ready. A new S works epic retails around 10 grand or so and has every trick part on it right out of the box.

    A $10,000 motorcycle has a LOT more R&D and manufacturing costs in it than a top of the line bicycle. I'm pretty sure Showa, Ohlins, etc charge a small fortune for their upgraded suspension products as well. And I'm still not sure why you keep saying speed makes them the same. I get the feeling you know absolutely NOTHING about motorcycles. I wouldn't be comfortable rolling down a smooth hill at 65mph on a bicycle....but my Honda will do 80+ all day easy without me worrying about whats gonna snap. There's really no way to compare a bicycle to a motorcycle by saying they go almost the same speed on a DH course. How fast a lap do you think a XC bike will turn on a MX course like Washougal? I'm guessing it would take 25-35x as long as a stock CRF450R. So the MX bike should cost 25x as much right? See how stupid that sounds?

    Yes, I think bicycles are extremely overpriced. There's no way it costs $5,000 to make ANY frame. And I doubt Shimano spends anywhere near $1000 to manufacture an XTR component set. There's SO much outsourcing, and those companies are making huge profits too. The frame may be the cheapest part or build or source!

    A $10,000 bicycle SHOULD be race ready. So should a $10,000 motorcycle. But you can't buy a watered down version of the CRF450R with cheaper parts on it for $2000 like you can a lot of bicycles. Sure, you can buy a CRF230....but that's like comparing a Specialized Hardrock that retails for $499 to the S Works Epic. Different beasts, different markets. And the two Hondas are still a LOT closer on price!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    ...And the two Hondas are still a LOT closer on price! ...
    Sure, but you can easily got out and get a $100,000+ motorbike. Both of those dirtbikes are pretty low end in the overall motorbike spectrum.
    As far as I know pushbikes max not too much higher (relatively) than that Spec, and high end always has a lot of markup. Markup on the Hondas is probably more comparable to a $1000-2000 pushbike.

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    This is apples and oranges.

    In my opinion, if you can go big or ride longer on a mountain bike, you are the more bad ass rider than the MX guy.

    Another note. Companies build those top end bikes to win races. You can go buy pretty much the exact mountain bike as a top racer. The same kind of bike that went through all the R&D. On the other hand. Motorcycle companies spend astronomical money on R&D. MotoGP sucks up millions upon millions, and you cannot buy Valentino Rossi's bike. But you could go out and buy Cadel Evans bike.

    Out of everything, bikes have the least markup. The company wants you to buy their bike so you buy their accessories and use their service centers. Or at least that is what they hope.

  28. #28
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    although there are arguments justifying prices on MTB's, I believe the key issue that people in MTB'ing are blind to is depreciation, and thus overall value over the life of the bike.

    Let's say someone buys a 2012 Specialized S-Works Stumpjumper FSR Carbon ($9400) and uses it for 2 seasons of average use/miles. Another person buys a 2012 Honda CRF450 ($8440) same scenario.

    After 2 years of standard use (no racing), the average motocross bike (IMO) stands up to abuse better and looks newer. After two years most of my mountain bikes have been fairly worn and haggard, with many rock chips, scrapes, dents, etc. Given that, people are simply not willing to pay much money for a used mountain bike.

    So when it comes time for a new toy, you will be selling the S-Works for lets say 30% of the initial price ($3000), whereas you can easily sell that CRF450 for over 50% of the initial cost ($5000+).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mentalone View Post
    I dont see anyone attempting to stop buying them. But maybe that will drive the price down, or the competition lower their prices.
    Like I said.....
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    It's our own darn fault

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    There's really no way to compare a bicycle to a motorcycle by saying they go almost the same speed on a DH course. How fast a lap do you think a XC bike will turn on a MX course like Washougal? I'm guessing it would take 25-35x as long as a stock CRF450R. So the MX bike should cost 25x as much right? See how stupid that sounds?
    Not so stupid.

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    The question was when did MTB's get more expensive than MX bikes, and the answer is when someone was first convinced to buy one. Ignore the R&D for a moment and flip through a magazine, or pages of a forum, or that video you've been drooling over, it's all in the marketing my friends. I've been a mechanic since my teenage years and a mechanic for a world traveling off road motorcycle team for 7 years now and absolutely everything is driven around marketing.

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    [QUOTE=BigKahuna;9637929] I get the feeling you know absolutely NOTHING about motorcycles.

    Not really. I'm 41 years old, been racing motocross and desert in So cal since I was 11. Won a lot of races. Finished barstow to Vegas the last year they did it(1987) on a 3 wheeler. I've owned Hondas, kawi's yamaha's, harley's even owned an ATK (1989 406 ). I still ride them as much as possible and even perform my own maintenance. I worked for some time at Scotts performance making a living selling motorcycle parts and accessories including steering dampers. No way in hell you're riding anywhere close to 80mph all day, and I don't know what your downhills look like but you aint going 60 mph down a sketchy rocky one out her here in the So cal desert.
    Last edited by verdugomountainlocal; 08-29-2012 at 07:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post


    A $10,000 bicycle SHOULD be race ready. So should a $10,000 motorcycle. But you can't buy a watered down version of the CRF450R with cheaper parts on it for $2000 like you can a lot of bicycles. Sure, you can buy a CRF230....but that's like comparing a Specialized Hardrock that retails for $499 to the S Works Epic. Different beasts, different markets. And the two Hondas are still a LOT closer on price!
    A stock 450r IS a watered down version, with cheap parts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    A stock 450r IS a watered down version, with cheap parts...
    I agree, you have to build a tricked out version yourself. The motocross equivalent of a top of line racing bicycle is not for sale.

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    Your 10 000$ mtb, is the exact same that they use in World cup event.

    You 9 000$ motorbike, isn't near top spec. Add at least another 10 000$ for better suspension and a race engin.

    Motorbike aren't available race ready. Maybe race ready for lower cat, just like lower cat in mtb don't race 10 000$, Yes some do...

    Some even buy 10 000$ mtb to go shopping... Just like some buy expensive car, high power car... I belive they call it social status.


    Quote Originally Posted by verdugomountainlocal View Post
    I agree, you have to build a tricked out version yourself. The motocross equivalent of a top of line racing bicycle is not for sale.

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    Nino's 650b Scott carbon hardtail is NOT off the shelf. That $13,000 hardtail has a custom frame, custom fork, custom bars and a custom made fork. None of which is available to YOU without spending a fortune. It's kinda pointless to compare bikes from top factory MX riders and top factory pro MTB racers. They all use equipment you and I don't have access to. Well, Fox WILL build you custom suspension, but most of us couldn't afford it. But a showroom floor KTM is a race ready and ANY showroom floor MTB. Period. And it cost at least $1000 less than many hardtails!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    Nino's 650b Scott carbon hardtail is NOT off the shelf. That $13,000 hardtail has a custom frame, custom fork, custom bars and a custom made fork. None of which is available to YOU without spending a fortune. It's kinda pointless to compare bikes from top factory MX riders and top factory pro MTB racers. They all use equipment you and I don't have access to. Well, Fox WILL build you custom suspension, but most of us couldn't afford it. But a showroom floor KTM is a race ready and ANY showroom floor MTB. Period. And it cost at least $1000 less than many hardtails!
    Do you realise the contradiction?

    a 3000$ mtb is also race ready... And cost less than a 10 000$ motorbike...

    Thfew hardtail that cost more than a motorbike, are fare!!! closser (comparable) to a real race motorbike. Ohlins suspension will cost you a fortune, and yet they will only be race ready stock product, pro racer have special version, equivalent to a black box product... A stock motur will get you the the starting line, but that it! You will need a real motor. the list goes on and on.

    a 10K mtb, Is preatty much near the top in every aspect. the best suspension you can BUY (no custom product), frame, best of about everything...

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    This topic comes up every 6-12 months and is one I've wondered about for many years.

    I'm pretty certain the answer isn't that MTB manufacturers or retailers are much more profitable than the moto companies or retailers. There are far more consumer choices in the MTB market and the number of retailers is far far greater. So econ 101 would suggest that there is more competition and likely slimmer margins in the MTB business than for motos.

    So that leaves technology and related engineering costs as the primary factor. The absolute costs associated with making a high-end 25-30 pound MTB that can take a beating and function well for years are probably greater than the costs associated with making a stock KTM EXC or Honda CRF.

    But without hard facts, I'm just speculating...........

    What I do know for sure is that the cost-per-hour-of-enjoyment is far LESS for MTB than for motos. Even at the same price level, I can ride the MTB 10-20x more often than my KTM for the same time commitment. That is how I think about value. The more it sits in the garage, the less its "worth".

    R

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    Overall cost of ownership is much cheaper with an MTB though. MX bike needs fuel, maintenance, track fees etc. Not to mention getting somewhere you can actually ride an MX bike requires a vehicle that needs fuel and possibly a trailer if you don't have a pickup truck.

    That's a big reason I got out of motorsports and invested in cycling. I can ride to trails and if I do need to drive, I can toss my bike in the car and go. My bike and I are cheap to operate, I lube the chain and wipe it down between rides and I run on beer and burritos. Cheap. Plus, the social atmosphere for mountain biking is waaaay better than the moto scene.

    My bikes weren't cheap, but I love them none the less. Plus, if the cost of bikes helps weed out the Larry's that start arguments like this I'm even more for it.

  40. #40
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    Nobody pays retail price

    Quote Originally Posted by paulys_tx View Post
    ... a Specialized S-Works Epic Carbon is $9900. Any thoughts???
    Nobody pays retail price.

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    You'd be surprised how low your LBS will go on things if you really ask them. I always go to the shop before I buy anything online and ask them what's the best price they'll do for me. If it's anywhere near the internet price I buy it from them. I'd never, ever buy a bike at retail unless it was in high demand and I really wanted it.

  42. #42
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    When they started to look like mx bikes?
    Veni Vidi Biki

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    Quote Originally Posted by cackalacky View Post
    Economies of scale...
    yep

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    Moto's costs more to buy and operate, but it's also SO MUCH more fun IMO, assuming you have a good place to ride it.

    Motos do chew up the rear tires very quickly here in the rocky mountains. I'm only getting about 400-500 miles from a rear tire and 800 out of a front.

    Moto helmets and boots cost about double what they do for MTB - i.e. $500 for sidi moto boots and $250 for sidi mtb shoes.
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    Mountain biking is more fun in my opinion. No better feeling than doing a long brutal climb and then having an amazing downhill run. So rewarding.

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    Cause manufacturers are greedy pigs that charge hudreds percent to the real manufacturing value of the item. Bikes in this situation. Its also happening in other markets like electronics. iPhone 4 manufacturing value is about 188 $ yet they were selling it for 700 dollars new. 700 Euro!!! here. If people will buy they will continue to add to the price until its unacceptable for the buyer. Then they will declare crisis, fire a few thousand workers and move to China.

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    Aren't the bikes already made in China?

    Interesting debate guys!


    But for my money, I'd take this over ANY carbon framed S-Works or other "elite" level MTB!



    I can get what I would consider a dream MTB for under $4000!

    I ride a 29er hardtail and a Honda XR650R now. I'm poor, or I'd own several of each, MTBs and motorcycles!

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    I just love steering with the rear wheel while accelerating, just can't do that on a mountain bike.
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    I love doing track stands, just can't do that on a 250lb dirt bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronpass View Post
    I love doing track stands, just can't do that on a 250lb dirt bike.
    True, but who wants to do 0mph when you're gripping 50hp with your wrist.

    That's like complaining that your incredibly hot girl friend won't hold your hand, but she's only too happy to get on her knees at the click of your fingers.
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    Hahahaha touché sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity View Post
    Cool video.

    It is funny that everyone is getting caught up on the price to develop a mtb vs the price to develop a mx. Since when did that matter? The question is, what will people pay for them, not what does it cost to make them. When you get in to top-tier price stuff, whether it is bikes, jewery, liquor, cars, whatever, it is the name, the prestige, the experience that people pay for, not because it is made with significantly more expensive stuff.

    I doubt many people are paying anywhere near $9k for an S-Works Epic carbon. That's a trophy bike, not a volume seller. Most riding those are probably sponsored riders who don't pay for them, and there are probably a few people w/ money to burn to buy the rest. The equivalent to the $7k YZ450 is more like a $2500 aluminum frame mountain bike, ie, Spesh Enduro Comp.
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  53. #53
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    2500$ is still a lot of money for an aluminium bike. Technology has evolved. Frame making is relatively cheap. Just look at chinese manufacturers. You can get a decent CARBON frame for about 500$. I know a person that has bought a frame like that and theres zero difference between that and a 1000$ frame from a well known brand. Actually the 500$ frame looks better.

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    Everyone has good points that do have an affect on the price of bicycles vs motorcycles. Economy of scale/ammt = yes. MFG techniques and resources = yes. Materials = yes. R&D and carryover engineering/design = yes.

    Yes, we can go buy a KTM 450 "factory look-alike" which for 99% of racers is a very amazing bike and will be more than enough to win any race except against works bikes. And that's just it, a motorcycle you buy from the shop can't compare to a works bike, especially the motor. Line them up next to each other and there is a major difference in performance which costs a lot of money to get.
    But I can go buy an off the shelf Specialized S-works Carbon Demo factory replica and it's pretty damn spot on to what their riders use. Line them up next to each other and you'd be hard pressed to pinpoint perceivable performance differences.

    Let's look at it apples to apples:

    We can buy a near factory mountain/road bike for a relative large amount of money - $8000-$12000, very easily at any shop or build it ourselves with off the shelf parts.
    We can also buy a near factory/works motorcycle mx or sb for a serious amount of money - $40000-$55000, but it's not technically easy for anyone and you can't do it off the shelf.
    This doesn't even take into account MotoGP which we can't buy and costs upwards of $250,000 - $500,000/bike.
    But, MotoGP is the pinnacle of motorcycle tech, yet we can't buy it and it's very expensive...yet we can buy the pinnacle of bike tech for much less money than the top shelf motorcycle.

    Think of how expensive motorcycles would be with carbon rims, carbon frames etc. This argument would be invalid at that time because the moto price would skyrocket, just as it did for bicycles.

    So, are they truly the same? My argument is no, they are not.

  55. #55
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    As long as people pay it, the prices will continue to go up. Cycling is a very high markup sport..........

    Thank you
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizworldusa View Post
    As long as people pay it, the prices will continue to go up. Cycling is a very high markup sport..........

    Thank you
    Bizworldusa
    No, it's not. There is less profit in bikes than most other businesses. A bike shop is a lifestyle business, not a get rich one.
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    ^.....and we're back to square one.

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    Bigkahuna. Were not back to square one! This is informative, and you make good points. Others also, there's so many variables on this subject. We know you like KTM that's for sure. May I suggest if you have not done so to do the foot peg mod on the 650r.

    Verdugomtnlocal. Do you still have your 87 B-to-V mug?

    My spin on the subject is simple. I won't be a poser and ride a 10.000 bicycle. I'm probably faster on my tank hardtail anyway. I do shake my head when I see huge dollar frames, and some of them are aluminum!

    My fix is if I think something is a scam, I'm not buying it. Like 1x11 or fancy smancy headsets.

  59. #59
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    Here in lies the problem in the cycling community, which has created an elitist bubble that is bound to burst. Companies are GREAT at creating buyers remorse, self inflating egos, and thus draining wallets. Its truly a perception issue, caused by marketing. Cycling brands are GREAT at marketing, and even better in how they do it.

    Motorcycle brands market their bikes as a sole model, with really no hidden costs, and really don't leave you wanting more. Unless you are a pro level competitor, trust me, the new CRF450 is more than capable for a wide range of amateurs. You know what you are getting right away.

    Bike manufacturers on the other hand, focus marketing of only the top end models, featuring the latest tech. It creates this never ending vacuum of 'needing the latest and greatest' tech. Meanwhile in reality that Comp model will be just fine for most Fred's, but incited by the ads, they opt for the S-Works 'just to be safe and futureproof'. It's good to have options they say to themselves!

    Its a ploy that I would think is bound to have a ceiling soon. Maybe not though?

  60. #60
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    If bicycles are such a high mark up, please show me the rich owners that own the shops. I do not know of one. In fact, I do not know of one that makes over $40,000 per year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    It's our own darn fault
    I read all the posts in this thread and have to say this was the most rational post. The rest made me laugh and and almost cry about how people think.

    I'm going for a ride on my beater bike and grin all the way.

  62. #62
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    So how many people here own a $9000 MTB? An S-works epic is the absolute top of the line bike and the most you can spend. I'd guess most of us own bikes that run between $2000 and $4000 (and those bikes are very nice).

    Not to mention, while MTBs are money pits compared to road bikes, dirt bikes are much more expensive to operate. Plus, you'll be healthier riding a bicycle, fewer ER visits, less exhaust fumes inhaled, better overall workout on a bicycle.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard View Post
    If bicycles are such a high mark up, please show me the rich owners that own the shops.
    I believe people are conflating manufacturer mark-up over cost of production with retail markup over dealer invoice.
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    Accessories are the cash cows.

    As the saying goes.

    "If you make it, they will come"
    Last edited by Methodical; 08-31-2012 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skankingbiker View Post
    I believe people are conflating manufacturer mark-up over cost of production with retail markup over dealer invoice.

    Finally, some common sense!


    It doesn't cost anywhere NEAR $9000 to make ANY mountainbike. And some motorcycle companies sell their bikes at a very minimal cost. Companies like Honda are large enough to have loss leaders. Motorcycle shops and bicycle shops are VERY similar. Both make minimal markup/profit on bikes....HUGE markup on parts and accessories and labor charges. It's always been that way.

    This main point has been overlooked, and that is what makes Specialized or some other company think it's perfectly OK to charge $8,000-9,000 for a bicycle? This isn't their bread and butter. We all know they will sell thousands more of the $400 bikes. The whales, the ones that they charge $10,000 for are not mass produced....because there simply isn't the demand. But I still think it takes a BIG set of balls to ask $9,000 for a bicycle. And then to claim that it is worth more than a motorcycle because they used lightweight materials (Mountain Bike Action, last month). They claim that because the bikes use cheap heavy wheels, and the welding is not top notch, the motorcycles cost a lot less to make.



    Quote Originally Posted by jimbowho View Post
    We know you like KTM that's for sure. May I suggest if you have not done so to do the foot peg mod on the 650r.
    The soft bolts were replaced LONG ago. So were the small stock pegs!

    KTM makes some damn fine bikes at a competitive price to the big Japanese brands. It's amazing to me, how they do it. They don't cut corners with crappy parts. They don't have them made in China, they don't build 650,000 bikes a year, etc. And yet they still make more models than any of the Japanese companies. And now they are finally a big player in MX and SX. I wish I had the coin, I'd own a couple! I have next to nothing invested in my plated and titled XR650R. So I'm "content" for now!
    Last edited by BigKahuna; 08-31-2012 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronpass View Post
    I love doing track stands, just can't do that on a 250lb dirt bike.
    Sure you can. Then again, my race bike is only #225.

    As far as I am concerned MTB and MX/XC/Enduro are two of the most fun things on this earth!!!

  67. #67
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    Kahuna. I did a knar foot-slap when my peg let go thru fast rollers. Scary but I saved it and foot was fine after a quick rest. Was lucky. I think they discontinued the Honda because they were so reliable, riders held onto them too long.

    My last KTM was a 525 with the RFS. Very good bike 9.000.00 I must disagree with you on the ktm thing though. Suspension was a grand, definately needed a damper, lots of various mods to make it run crisp with no gurgelling hickups. We still needed to clean up the exhaust and the stock Excel rims were replaced with Excel rims that held up to hard abuse. (oem excel were bad) Maybe a strange cheaper rim???

    I had 125 and 540 Ktm's that exploded like todays pepboys bikes. (525 was very good.) Jap bikes are very solid and tunable IMO. Currently have a 03-Cr125, 08-Yamaha Yz 450, And a 03 KX-500. I keep grabbing the KX for the fun factor.

    I agree with you about Mtn bikes. It's a bicycle and I just can't relate to the prices. Thank god I struggle when peddeling so I can happily keep it simple.

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    KX Five hundee!!! Nice!

    I also have an 03 CR125...plus my baby an 07 YZ250, and my wife's 04 KX100.

    Getting a lot of pressure from a friend that is a husky dealer to try the 310...Just not ready to cross over the the 4-Stroke world yet. batteries, fuel pumps, efi....blleecckkk.

  69. #69
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    ^ The magic button is sweet on newer bikes though! I'd gladly carry a battery for one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie Doyle View Post
    The question was when did MTB's get more expensive than MX bikes, and the answer is when someone was first convinced to buy one. Ignore the R&D for a moment and flip through a magazine, or pages of a forum, or that video you've been drooling over, it's all in the marketing my friends. I've been a mechanic since my teenage years and a mechanic for a world traveling off road motorcycle team for 7 years now and absolutely everything is driven around marketing.
    Bike companies do not overcharge for their bikes. They make a profit but they are not rolling in dough like IBM was back in the sixties when they were the only game in town and could charge whatever they wanted.

    If you look, the price from all major companies for similarly equipped bikes is roughly the same. Because they all have roughly the same manufacturing, distributing, and marketing costs, the need to be competitive against other brands leaves them little room for huge non-justifiable markups. Bikes are not quite commodity products like corn and pork bellies where the various sellers price to the point of "zero economic profit" but the majority of people will not pay a huge premium for a bike with similar performance and components they can get for less from another company.

    This is the same reason that cars in similar categories from different companies are roughly the same price. The manufacturers do not get together and collude to set an artificial price but rather it is the invisible hand of the market that drives the price as low as it can possibly go.

    The ten-thousand-dollar super-bikes are outliers and their sale is probably driven more by emotion and marketing than he sale of more reasonably priced bikes. Past three or four thousand you don't really get that much more bang for the buck although there is no doubt that these bikes are of incredibly high quality.

    Marketing is important and it isn't evil. I laugh when I hear the small, avant-garde builders and bike companies rail against marketing even though their "too-cool-to-market" is itself slick self-promotion. It's the aggressive marketing of mountain bikes from companies like Specialized and Trek that have increased the demand for mountain bikes allowing the niche companies to thrive.

    Smart people cannot be sold products they don't want. I happen to really like Specialized but if they made crappy bikes or had poor customer service I'd buy another brand. I'm not in love with brands and I'm not "loyal" except that they continue to produce top-quality, reasonably-priced bikes.

  71. #71
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    Oh, and forget mountain bikes! What about road bikes? Full rigid, fragile as a newborn and $7-10k? That's ridiculous if you ask me.

  72. #72
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    If you look at bike shops you see from 30 to 65 percent sales every year. Thats about real manufacturing price which still leaves some profit to the manufacturer. Or are you still sure that a Merida hardtail with Carbon frame, RockShox fork and Shimano Alivio set is worth 2300 EU? 1400 Is much more adequate price imho.

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    If you look at auto's you can get a mid-sized sedan starting with the basic model you can buy it for the low twenties start adding packages and options you could get into the low thirties. Upgrade to hybrid or 6 cyl the the mid thirties. if the average bike company used only several power trains, to keep costs down, and added upgrades for other parts would they be able remain profitable? I visited price point and most of the forks were around 750. More than the cost of my bike. Could a company come up with several designs that were light weight and durable and have the after market provide for racers like motorcycle manufacturers do?

    My point is, what makes it difficult is the manufactures cater to racers in both mountain and road bikes. The non expert like myself doesn't need a ferrari when a VW will do. Orienting bikes to how much gear you could buy keeps the price high.

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    A little of topic but... What I don't understand is how there's a 4000.00 diff between comparable trek and specialized models, where both claim to be high end.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millfox View Post
    If you look at bike shops you see from 30 to 65 percent sales every year. Thats about real manufacturing price which still leaves some profit to the manufacturer. Or are you still sure that a Merida hardtail with Carbon frame, RockShox fork and Shimano Alivio set is worth 2300 EU? 1400 Is much more adequate price imho.
    How about we let companies charge what they want for their bikes? As long as their is no collusion or a monopoly (there isn't), if you feel the price is too high that's just your problem and you can buy a cheaper bike. There are plenty of options in all different price ranges.

    "Price controls," while emotionally satisfying, always lead to scarcity. That's just economic law.

    Morally, it is none of your business how private companies conduct their business as long as they obey the law. Competition between competing companies will always lead to higher quality and lower prices.

    Once again, the ten-thousand dollar bikes are outliers. Most of the bikes my LBS sells are in the five-hundred to a thousand dollar range and these are very good quality bikes that people are very happy to ride. I ride more expensive bikes because I can afford to but I was very happy on my Gary Fisher Wahoo when that's all I could manage.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Cycling is a high markup sport?

    It is actually among the LOWEST, average profit margins of shops at years end is often 2-8%. And the manufacturing numbers are minuscule compared to moto parts/accessories.
    You clearly aren't in manufacturing.
    Or specialty sports retail...
    Let us think about this logically, on one hand we have a bike, which is essentially nothing more than a frame, on the other hand we have a frame, which is larger, thus taking more metal to create, you have a motor and all is tiny components which also incidently has its own separate design team, you also have the plastic which of course costs crazy money to create and to mold, for example a chinese four wheeler company would spend 200k just changing the mold for is plastic.
    Now with all those in your head do you really think a bicycle is seriously more expensive than a motorbike? quit simply GTFO.

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    Mountain bikes cost what they will cost. Bike companies negotiate with their suppliers but in the end a frame costs a certain amount of money as do the components. Assembly costs money, distribution costs money, and marketing costs money. The bike world is full of all kinds of bikes from the one-hundred dollar Wal Mart cruisers to the ten-thousand dollar super bikes but they are all priced to sell for a profit.

    It's not a charity.

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    Pretty narrow view of the industry if you think bikes are more expensive than motorcycles. That's like sitting in a caviar shop and complaining that food is more expensive than a car. You're looking at the very top few percent of bike sales, because you're an enthusiast on an enthusiast forum. I'd guess the average selling price of a new bicycle is around $300, the average selling price of a new dirtbike is much higher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by verdugomountainlocal View Post
    [Bicycles] hold up at those speeds while weighing 19 pounds and carrying a crazy lifetime warranty against defects. Although there is no motor the suspension and linkage are just as advanced, if not more so. If you look at a modern motocross bike it's nice but the frame, swingarm and wheels are just average. Not super trick alloy, not real clean welds . A modern high end bicycle with carbon rims, inertia valves carbon linkages is very hard to engineer to where it holds up to our abuse. Try to shed 20 to 30 pounds off a motocross bike and it'll cost you 4 grand more. Nobody races a stock mx bike at a high level either. those guys dump 4 to 5 grand in suspension upgrades, bars, tires, hubs, rims, spokes, engine work,dampers exhaust....... A bicycle racer racer will more or less compete at a world cup level on a stock bike such as an s works epic save for a tire swap or grip swap. I hope this helps.
    While I agree a little bit with what you say you are generalizing quite a lot.

    Very few people ride 19lb mountain bikes except maybe top sponsored women racers. And if you can show me how to take 20 to 30 lbs off of a MX bike period (let alone for only 5 grand) I really want to know how that is done. I doubt a factory race bike weighs more than 5 to 10 lbs under a stock bike, if even that. Factory suspension is way expensive, I agree. And yes modern high end mountain bikes are technological marvels but I'm very impressed with how well designed and constructed my KTMs are, down to the smallest detail. Race ready and competitive right out of the box except at the very top end of competition. They have been optimizing for a long time. There is a ton of technology going on there and they get a little better every year. And yes you do get a lot of bang for your buck.

    As far as bike stored existing on a almost no profit. I've addressed that in the past and the only stores who are having a hard time are the tiny mom and pop stores in areas over saturated with bike stores. All the big stores in my area are doing just fine. Actually much more than fine and building new multi million dollar locations. The struggling bike store myth is something held over from the old days when there were lots of little shops run by bike nerds who did it for the love and making a profit was a secondary concern. That animal is almost extinct.
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    verdugomountainlocal
    [Bicycles] hold up at those speeds while weighing 19 pounds and carrying a crazy lifetime warranty against defects. Although there is no motor the suspension and linkage are just as advanced, if not more so. If you look at a modern motocross bike it's nice but the frame, swingarm and wheels are just average. Not super trick alloy, not real clean welds . A modern high end bicycle with carbon rims, inertia valves carbon linkages is very hard to engineer to where it holds up to our abuse. Try to shed 20 to 30 pounds off a motocross bike and it'll cost you 4 grand more. Nobody races a stock mx bike at a high level either. those guys dump 4 to 5 grand in suspension upgrades, bars, tires, hubs, rims, spokes, engine work,dampers exhaust....... A bicycle racer racer will more or less compete at a world cup level on a stock bike such as an s works epic save for a tire swap or grip swap. I hope this helps.
    Not to burst your bubble but the carbon fiber thing has been in motorcycles for some time now. Now I am more of a street moto guy so that is where I will comment, there have been carbon fiber motorcycle wheels for some time, they were (and still are I believe) still Illegal on race tracks do to their ability to simply shatter, carbon fiber swing arms are used on Ducati race bikes, They also have their flagship bike the Desmosedici frame which is carbon fiber. Ducati

    BST Carbon Wheels - OPPRACING Products

    Suspension on Mountain bikes comes directly from the suspension already developed for motorcycles, just a matter of scaling it down, those shocks (say fox for example) have been making shocks in the moto world for some time now.

    Pop, the sound of your bubble bursting

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by motard5 View Post
    Here in lies the problem in the cycling community, which has created an elitist bubble that is bound to burst. Companies are GREAT at creating buyers remorse, self inflating egos, and thus draining wallets. Its truly a perception issue, caused by marketing. Cycling brands are GREAT at marketing, and even better in how they do it.

    Motorcycle brands market their bikes as a sole model, with really no hidden costs, and really don't leave you wanting more. Unless you are a pro level competitor, trust me, the new CRF450 is more than capable for a wide range of amateurs. You know what you are getting right away.

    Bike manufacturers on the other hand, focus marketing of only the top end models, featuring the latest tech. It creates this never ending vacuum of 'needing the latest and greatest' tech. Meanwhile in reality that Comp model will be just fine for most Fred's, but incited by the ads, they opt for the S-Works 'just to be safe and futureproof'. It's good to have options they say to themselves!

    Its a ploy that I would think is bound to have a ceiling soon. Maybe not though?
    Excellent post!

  82. #82
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    I keep hearing this idea that people buy nice bike stuff to impress other riders. Where does this come from?

    I ride alone 95% of the time and am usually riding something that no one really understands anyhow because it isn't mainstream yet, so I sure don't care what most think of my bike.

    Sure if I engineer and build something myself I like a little cred, but if I buy something nice it's because it will [or at least has the potential to] work better or be lighter but still strong enough. Or stronger because I broke the last one, or to try out some new technology. So yeah that is usually pretty high end cause they don't sell that stuff at Wallyworld, but I certainly don't buy it to impress anyone I meet on the trail. Just saying.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  83. #83
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    I bought this baby eight weeks ago (my first moto) for a whopping $3,800. It was basically brand new 06' with 19 easy hours on it. Not a scratch on it. These 2 stroke KTM 300's are considered to be one of the finest trails bike made.

    One finger Brembo brakes, hydro clutch, 13.8" of rear travel 12" up front. 50hp engine. The only thing I had to do was install a scotts steering damper and back out the compression adjusters on the fork & shock. So much bike for the money when compared to MTB's. It's like a DH bike with a built in ski lift.

    I think the #1 reason MTB's cost so much is weight. Light weight is expensive and so important when you only have a 1/4hp engine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails When did Mountain bikes get more expensive than Motocross Bikes-img_6703.jpg  

    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    I keep hearing this idea that people buy nice bike stuff to impress other riders. Where does this come from?
    Don't know. Here in Colorado everyone who rides trails has a nice bike(s). It would be more impressive to see someone ripping it up on a wally-world bike.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  85. #85
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    The Bicycle Industrial Complex will keep raising prices till your wallet is empty.

    I'd bet that the BIC employs a herd of psychologists whose only job is to determine the best way to extract the maximum amount of money from you. Spend accordingly.

  86. #86
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    Dude yousick with the whole rainbow thing. Like the Gods lowered it gently while you stood there geared up. Good score-n. Keep an eye on the kickstand bolt and shock bolts.

    Oh and you suk!!!

    Also
    I'm more impressed with an old fogy dropping posers on carbon fiber with a classic bike.
    I haven't seen it but I hear it happens.

  87. #87
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    When I raced moto my 10k stock bike became a 23k race bike, just to be competitive.
    When I raced quad my 8k stock quad became a 20k race quad, just to be competitive.
    But now my $1500 bike is around 6k which I could race now and for another 1-2k I can get it race ready but, I'd have to loose 20lbs to be competitive lol.

  88. #88
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    I think some of the high costs can be attributed to inflation. Around the late 90's - early 00's you could get full XTR and a Sid on a bike for around $3K. I got an aluminum S-Works hardtail at the end of the season in 2004 with full XTR, a Sid, DT-Swiss hubs, carbon bar, etc. for around $2200-2300 (can't remember exactly what I paid). I remember when you could get a Fox Float RLC for around $400, now they're twice that. And do people really pay full retail? I sure am not paying $70 for one single Schwalbe tire. When I'm watching tv in the evening, I'll often leave my browser open on Chainlove and see what pops up - $15 jerseys, $40 shoes, $30 bars. Now those are prices I like.
    Your momma's so nasty, she keeps ice between her legs just to keep the crabs fresh.

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    Gotta love the naive paranoids that think we're all being manipulated by the MTB companies into paying excessive prices for stuff we don't need or want.

    I have a little more confidence in the intelligence of the MTB consumer. People who buy a $6,500 bike are a small minority, have given the purchase some thought and know what they are doing. By volume, the vast majority of bikes sold are in the sub $700 range.

    R

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    I bought this baby eight weeks ago (my first moto) for a whopping $3,800. It was basically brand new 06' with 19 easy hours on it. Not a scratch on it. These 2 stroke KTM 300's are considered to be one of the finest trails bike made.
    Nice score. I'm partial to 200s but 300s are second in line and 2 stroke is the only way to go. imo. Light, powerful and cheap and easy to rebuild. Plus you gotta love the smell of premix.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarBoom View Post
    When I raced moto my 10k stock bike became a 23k race bike, just to be competitive.
    Must have been made in Japan
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbowho View Post
    Dude yousick with the whole rainbow thing. Like the Gods lowered it gently while you stood there geared up. Good score-n. Keep an eye on the kickstand bolt and shock bolts.

    Oh and you suk!!!
    Fore sure, I noticed the kick stand bolts were starting to loosen up just the other day.
    That rainbow pic was taken outside our home after a storm had come through. You can see snow on the ground - 4th of July in Colorado! No pot of gold, but I'll take a dirtbike any day


    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    Nice score. I'm partial to 200s but 300s are second in line and 2 stroke is the only way to go. imo. Light, powerful and cheap and easy to rebuild. Plus you gotta love the smell of premix.
    200 has such a following and I was so close to buying one when this 300 turned up.

    Bikes are down on power 30-40% where I live at 10Kft. All the trails i've found so far are jeep roads and pretty open and I can often use all the power that the 300 has got (for short bursts) at this altitude. If I lived at lower elevation and had tighter trails, the 200 sounds about perfect.

    Anyway, I'm off to change my air filter and make some smoke
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve71 View Post
    200 has such a following and I was so close to buying one when this 300 turned up.

    Bikes are down on power 30-40% where I live at 10Kft. All the trails i've found so far are jeep roads and pretty open and I can often use all the power that the 300 has got (for short bursts) at this altitude. If I lived at lower elevation and had tighter trails, the 200 sounds about perfect.
    That makes sense. It's really tight and twisty and 800 ft above sea level around here so a 200 works great.

    I tried to push the envelope to see how little I could get away with and bought an 08 144. It's fun but at 200lbs I'm too big. I can ride it but if it gets steep I need to feather the clutch too much. If I was 150lbs it would be no problem. But the bike did handle better than my 04 200 so I switched the engines between the 2 and got the best of both.

    On a side note, I can't get the hang of using a foot brake however. If I'm up on the tank I have to get out of position to apply it. So I use only the front brake 95% of the time. I just ordered a left hand rear brake kit. I might even try to reverse them to get left front. I think that would work really great. With a fat rear tire if you use both brakes you can stop really fast. Much more so than with a bicycle.

    Dirtbikes are fun too.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    I tried to push the envelope to see how little I could get away with and bought an 08 144. It's fun but at 200lbs I'm too big. I can ride it but if it gets steep I need to feather the clutch too much. If I was 150lbs it would be no problem. But the bike did handle better than my 04 200 so I switched the engines between the 2 and got the best of both.
    Wow that's dedicated. Are you worried about the frame taking the extra HP, or did you add some metal in there?

    Quote Originally Posted by modifier View Post
    On a side note, I can't get the hang of using a foot brake however. If I'm up on the tank I have to get out of position to apply it. So I use only the front brake 95% of the time. I just ordered a left hand rear brake kit. I might even try to reverse them to get left front. I think that would work really great. With a fat rear tire if you use both brakes you can stop really fast. Much more so than with a bicycle.
    I've got about 32 hours on my bike now, but for the first 5-6 I didn't touch the rear brake. Once I ventured out onto the trails, a lot of which are really steep and loose, the rear brake quickly became my best friend.

    LHRB would be sweet. The foot brake is so numb, but pulling the clutch helps a bit with feel. Being an Aussie, I have always run my MTB front brake on the right hand side.
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  95. #95
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    125 though 200s are the same frame. So no worries there.

    I run Reklus clutches in everything so in most cases I don't need the clutch. But I will leave it there, probably twisted up with the brake below in the low normal position. I've never had an issue going from mtb front brake left to dirtbike front brake right. But if I throw in another hand control I'm not sure what will happen. I like the idea of having a front brake on the left so that your throttle isn't effected when braking and also it might be nice to hold the front brake on and gas the rear wheel around for a tight, cutting brake style, turns. We will see.
    No it never stops hurting, but if you keep at it you can go faster.

  96. #96
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    Yup, a few have said it in other ways, but it's like this:

    It's called "overlap". The top end of bike $$ crosses the base $$ of motocross bikes, just like MANY MTB cranks cost more than a complete Walmart bike. I got called into the manager's office for an ass-chewing when I told a customer who complained about $75 for a bike being "a lot of money"; my answer was, "Ma'am, the crankset on my bike costs more than that, $75 is NOT a lot of money."

    There are six dozen different bike models on the rack of the Wally where I toil; not a ONE of them costs as much as my Nixon Comp fork did in 2007! Does that mean the Nixon is over-engineered or overpriced? HELL NO -- it means you get what you pay for, in many cases.
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  97. #97
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    I personally find it crazy that I have bought two sportbikes for under 4k 2006 CBR 600RR and a 2008 same bike. Hell of a lot more functional than a bicycle but silly me for looking drooling over bikes that cost the same as my motorcycle and cant ride my POS bike to its potential. Heres to wasted cash.

  98. #98
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    I ride a 500 dollar mtb. Dont thinkI would ever spend much more than that on one.
    My next motocross bike however will be around 14 grand. But that is for a custom built Service Honda CR500AF.
    I am not a 4-stroke kool-aide drinker.

    I would ride a walmart mtb before I would spend even a grand on one. Wouldn't even consider 10grand.

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    I got my '06 Suzuki dr650 on Craigslist for 2k, '06 Cannondale Chase 2 from Craigslist $300.... new '011 Specialized Enduro $2.5k from lbs. The Spec. gets used the most because it is so inspiring to be upon. When I ride that enduro I feel like the bike is part of me. I'm fairly new to motorcycles and I'm not too confident on the DR, makes me feel like a kook almost every time I ride her.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by aph72 View Post
    I think some of the high costs can be attributed to inflation. Around the late 90's - early 00's you could get full XTR and a Sid on a bike for around $3K. I got an aluminum S-Works hardtail at the end of the season in 2004 with full XTR, a Sid, DT-Swiss hubs, carbon bar, etc. for around $2200-2300 (can't remember exactly what I paid).
    I don't get the prices of bikes these days either. I build my bike back in 2003. I bought nice light weight KHS hard tail frame some nice, but not crazy wheels and full XT build group. I spent maybe $1100 minus the fork which I reused from my old bike since it was a bout a year old. I figure had $1400 max in the bike. I don't see why they would cost $5000 these days other than since it what people will pay.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '19 Ibis Ripmo, XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  101. #101
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    Golfication of bike gear. Hasn't happened in motor bikes or car manufacturing.

    sent from one of my 4 gold leafed iphone4s's

  102. #102
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    Mtbs are more expensive cuz they are inherently worth more...
    JASDIP!

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulys_tx View Post
    Okay, so for the last couple of years I have been drooling over a higher end full suspension MTB. Now as I go into shops, I see many bikes that cost more than a brand new Yamaha YZ450 with less technology onboard. Sure the frames are carbon but think about shocks that have to be built to handle 400+ lbs bike and rider load, engines with Titanium valves, fuel injection, and that rev to over 12,500 rpm. Simply, I'm a little disturbed that an equal or less technology costs more. The MSRP on the YZ450F is $8490 and a Specialized S-Works Epic Carbon is $9900. Any thoughts???
    The Cost / Financial Analyst in me has done the math and the Bill of Materials and the Cost of Labor, as well as the Cost of Good Sold. The burden rate of overhead of all the folks working for bicycle companies here in the USA, and all the racing programs they subsidize for the racers they support is where the average consumer that rides a bike money is going. Everyone wants to race, or be paid to ride top of the line equipment for free. The folks that run these business's, at the top, have expensive house payments in Northern California or Southern California or Colorado to make. Then they have expensive racing teams they support, either partially or fully. Racing and travel costs lots of money.

    The IRS would ask is it a business trip, or is it a vacation trip masked at a business trip.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulys_tx View Post
    Okay, so for the last couple of years I have been drooling over a higher end full suspension MTB. Now as I go into shops, I see many bikes that cost more than a brand new Yamaha YZ450 with less technology onboard. Sure the frames are carbon but think about shocks that have to be built to handle 400+ lbs bike and rider load, engines with Titanium valves, fuel injection, and that rev to over 12,500 rpm. Simply, I'm a little disturbed that an equal or less technology costs more. The MSRP on the YZ450F is $8490 and a Specialized S-Works Epic Carbon is $9900. Any thoughts???
    I feel the same way I keep the cost of my bike purchases down by doing careful shopping and research.I only buy frames online and build up the bikes with quality discounted components.Maybe something like this? Santa Cruz Heckler Full Suspension Mountain Bike Frame 100022741 or this? Santa Cruz Nomad Aluminum Full Suspension Frames 2013 w/ Fox Float CTD Rear Shoc 100097824 this? Sette Bikes -Derro One keep in mind motocross bikes cost an assload more to maintain

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