First you climb 700 feet; road, dirt, doesn't matter. Seasoned riders take this for granted. Riders who can't get past this have bikes sitting in their garages gathering dust.
For most of us in this Forum we just climb and, by the time we are up there, we are nice and loose and have some endorphine thing going on and it only gets better. We shift our concerns to climbing fast or not using the granny or doing it on a Singlespeed or watching heart monitors or studying traction of various tires or "pushing ourselves" to ride with a faster rider Definitely not a noob perspective.
I have found that few riders, regardless of how much experience they have and, and additionally, how unwilling they are to admit this, understand how to ride with new riders. It isn't that they haven't been there before, it's just that they don't think like that anymore. Few riders know what it means to establish basic skills for new riders. Most toss out techniques too advanced for the new rider which are only appropriately constructed on other hard won skills. In the end they equate to something like: if you just pedal harder and fast it will be okay.
One of the most dangerous riders in this regard is a not so new rider who is taking new riders out. In truth they are so busy pushing themselves forward that they lose track of the new riders. Laying back is regressive and very much counter to what a new rider needs and counter to what the not so new rider is trying to achieve to be a maountain biker.
How many times in this Forum have I seen the question,"How do I ride with my (fill in the blank here) and still get my workout?" Simple answer? You don't. If you really want to develope the new rider into a riding bud then you have to give a great deal of your riding. That means previewing trails and courses beforehand (there's a workout for you) and putting in the time to search for the right one. Tossing a new rider onto a course without the leader pre-riding is a mistake. I'm hoping that the author of this thread can see this now but he seems to want to blame it on the Rating system; another not so new rider quality. This also means hanging back and riding WITH the new rider and not just waiting at an intersection or hilltop for them to catch up their hearts in their throats, chest heaving and driping with sweat while you rest under a tree eating an Apricot Cliff Bar and swill cyto. Sharing their frustration at certain foibles and pitfalls is key, too, as it creates a bond of identification between the riders as the problems become shared as part of the sport and make the new rider feel less like some freak who can't do what everyone else seems to do.
This list could ger very long; maybe it is because it comes from personality and not just skill and experience. I digress. Often.
When we start new riders at the High School Racing level we always have spanking brand new riders and kids who say (with their parents behind them) man I can already ride. We never presume upon any of that. This year we were lucky enought to have a Monday Spinning Class; no one falls off the back. Our Wednesday Ride weaved down to the Bay to do the Bay Trail to build basic pedaling skills, work on shifting, cockpit adustments, riding position, bringing the body down and forward and bringing the knees in and building group riding skills by teaching paceline and the responsibility we all have to pay attention and not do stupid things. Oh there was whining (this is lame/I can't keep up) but after a couple of months we had a paceline to be proud of and did miles of smooth and continuous non-stop riding and we would use that as our warm-up and THEN go climb the paved hills up to Wildcat and Tilden. Freshmen boys and girls.
Anyhow, when it came time to do dirt, which was done on Saturdays, the kids had power and skill. At that point we could concentrate on the skills required to ride dirt; managing uneven and varying surfaces and climbing and descending steeps, all on trails my coaches and I knew like the back of our hands. The Rider off the back usually got a constant workshop on their skills along with huge amounts of encouragement, reassurance and making fun of ourselves and applause from the entire group at the end of a tough section or ust made progress on somethg which had challenged them. we rode at china Camp which has natural divisions for New, Intermdiate, and Advanced riders, and progressed to Tamarancho as the season moved on.
My point is that there is a lot to do before going out on dirt both for the leader and the new rider guest.
Guest...hmmmm...maybe that's it.
Another point I would like to make is that few new ridrs are on a team with 3 workouts a week; what we could do safely in 2 months may take several seasons for a New Rider. try to keep that in mind.
For my money the Bay Trail starting in Emeryville and going to Richmond Marina and back is a great place to start. You can get 25 miles in on a flat surface (a bit of hill at Golden Gate Fields) and there is a great Deli at the Richmond End; think of lunch or an Ice Cream; that helps to make it more fun and rewarding. And while you are sitting on the wharf in the warm sun nibbling on Focaccia and sipping Pelgrino (or a Bud and a Slim Jim) look to the East and you'll notice a 1000 ft. ridge, and a 1900 ft Volmer Peak. Noobie Territory? Not yet, but one day, with patience.













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First you climb 700 feet; road, dirt, doesn't matter. Seasoned riders take this for granted. Riders who can't get past this have bikes sitting in their garages gathering dust.
For most of us in this Forum we just climb and, by the time we are up there, we are nice and loose and have some endorphine thing going on and it only gets better. We shift our concerns to climbing fast or not using the granny or doing it on a Singlespeed or watching heart monitors or studying traction of various tires or "pushing ourselves" to ride with a faster rider Definitely not a noob perspective.
I have found that few riders, regardless of how much experience they have and, and additionally, how unwilling they are to admit this, understand how to ride with new riders. It isn't that they haven't been there before, it's just that they don't think like that anymore. Few riders know what it means to establish basic skills for new riders. Most toss out techniques too advanced for the new rider which are only appropriately constructed on other hard won skills. In the end they equate to something like: if you just pedal harder and fast it will be okay.
One of the most dangerous riders in this regard is a not so new rider who is taking new riders out. In truth they are so busy pushing themselves forward that they lose track of the new riders. Laying back is regressive and very much counter to what a new rider needs and counter to what the not so new rider is trying to achieve to be a maountain biker.
How many times in this Forum have I seen the question,"How do I ride with my (fill in the blank here) and still get my workout?" Simple answer? You don't. If you really want to develope the new rider into a riding bud then you have to give a great deal of your riding. That means previewing trails and courses beforehand (there's a workout for you) and putting in the time to search for the right one. Tossing a new rider onto a course without the leader pre-riding is a mistake. I'm hoping that the author of this thread can see this now but he seems to want to blame it on the Rating system; another not so new rider quality. This also means hanging back and riding WITH the new rider and not just waiting at an intersection or hilltop for them to catch up their hearts in their throats, chest heaving and driping with sweat while you rest under a tree eating an Apricot Cliff Bar and swill cyto. Sharing their frustration at certain foibles and pitfalls is key, too, as it creates a bond of identification between the riders as the problems become shared as part of the sport and make the new rider feel less like some freak who can't do what everyone else seems to do.
This list could ger very long; maybe it is because it comes from personality and not just skill and experience. I digress. Often.
When we start new riders at the High School Racing level we always have spanking brand new riders and kids who say (with their parents behind them) man I can already ride. We never presume upon any of that. This year we were lucky enought to have a Monday Spinning Class; no one falls off the back. Our Wednesday Ride weaved down to the Bay to do the Bay Trail to build basic pedaling skills, work on shifting, cockpit adustments, riding position, bringing the body down and forward and bringing the knees in and building group riding skills by teaching paceline and the responsibility we all have to pay attention and not do stupid things. Oh there was whining (this is lame/I can't keep up) but after a couple of months we had a paceline to be proud of and did miles of smooth and continuous non-stop riding and we would use that as our warm-up and THEN go climb the paved hills up to Wildcat and Tilden. Freshmen boys and girls.
Anyhow, when it came time to do dirt, which was done on Saturdays, the kids had power and skill. At that point we could concentrate on the skills required to ride dirt; managing uneven and varying surfaces and climbing and descending steeps, all on trails my coaches and I knew like the back of our hands. The Rider off the back usually got a constant workshop on their skills along with huge amounts of encouragement, reassurance and making fun of ourselves and applause from the entire group at the end of a tough section or ust made progress on somethg which had challenged them. we rode at china Camp which has natural divisions for New, Intermdiate, and Advanced riders, and progressed to Tamarancho as the season moved on.
My point is that there is a lot to do before going out on dirt both for the leader and the new rider guest.
Guest...hmmmm...maybe that's it.
Another point I would like to make is that few new ridrs are on a team with 3 workouts a week; what we could do safely in 2 months may take several seasons for a New Rider. try to keep that in mind.
For my money the Bay Trail starting in Emeryville and going to Richmond Marina and back is a great place to start. You can get 25 miles in on a flat surface (a bit of hill at Golden Gate Fields) and there is a great Deli at the Richmond End; think of lunch or an Ice Cream; that helps to make it more fun and rewarding. And while you are sitting on the wharf in the warm sun nibbling on Focaccia and sipping Pelgrino (or a Bud and a Slim Jim) look to the East and you'll notice a 1000 ft. ridge, and a 1900 ft Volmer Peak. Noobie Territory? Not yet, but one day, with patience.













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Berkeley Mike

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Noob Riding vs. The basic tenet for East Bay Riding






First you climb 700 feet; road, dirt, doesn't matter. Seasoned riders take this for granted. Riders who can't get past this have bikes sitting in their garages gathering dust.
For most of us in this Forum we just climb and, by the time we are up there, we are nice and loose and have some endorphine thing going on and it only gets better. We shift our concerns to climbing fast or not using the granny or doing it on a Singlespeed or watching heart monitors or studying traction of various tires or "pushing ourselves" to ride with a faster rider Definitely not a noob perspective.
I have found that few riders, regardless of how much experience they have and, and additionally, how unwilling they are to admit this, understand how to ride with new riders. It isn't that they haven't been there before, it's just that they don't think like that anymore. Few riders know what it means to establish basic skills for new riders. Most toss out techniques too advanced for the new rider which are only appropriately constructed on other hard won skills. In the end they equate to something like: if you just pedal harder and fast it will be okay.
One of the most dangerous riders in this regard is a not so new rider who is taking new riders out. In truth they are so busy pushing themselves forward that they lose track of the new riders. Laying back is regressive and very much counter to what a new rider needs and counter to what the not so new rider is trying to achieve to be a maountain biker.
How many times in this Forum have I seen the question,"How do I ride with my (fill in the blank here) and still get my workout?" Simple answer? You don't. If you really want to develope the new rider into a riding bud then you have to give a great deal of your riding. That means previewing trails and courses beforehand (there's a workout for you) and putting in the time to search for the right one. Tossing a new rider onto a course without the leader pre-riding is a mistake. I'm hoping that the author of this thread can see this now but he seems to want to blame it on the Rating system; another not so new rider quality. This also means hanging back and riding WITH the new rider and not just waiting at an intersection or hilltop for them to catch up their hearts in their throats, chest heaving and driping with sweat while you rest under a tree eating an Apricot Cliff Bar and swill cyto. Sharing their frustration at certain foibles and pitfalls is key, too, as it creates a bond of identification between the riders as the problems become shared as part of the sport and make the new rider feel less like some freak who can't do what everyone else seems to do.
This list could ger very long; maybe it is because it comes from personality and not just skill and experience. I digress. Often.
When we start new riders at the High School Racing level we always have spanking brand new riders and kids who say (with their parents behind them) man I can already ride. We never presume upon any of that. This year we were lucky enought to have a Monday Spinning Class; no one falls off the back. Our Wednesday Ride weaved down to the Bay to do the Bay Trail to build basic pedaling skills, work on shifting, cockpit adustments, riding position, bringing the body down and forward and bringing the knees in and building group riding skills by teaching paceline and the responsibility we all have to pay attention and not do stupid things. Oh there was whining (this is lame/I can't keep up) but after a couple of months we had a paceline to be proud of and did miles of smooth and continuous non-stop riding and we would use that as our warm-up and THEN go climb the paved hills up to Wildcat and Tilden. Freshmen boys and girls.
Anyhow, when it came time to do dirt, which was done on Saturdays, the kids had power and skill. At that point we could concentrate on the skills required to ride dirt; managing uneven and varying surfaces and climbing and descending steeps, all on trails my coaches and I knew like the back of our hands. The Rider off the back usually got a constant workshop on their skills along with huge amounts of encouragement, reassurance and making fun of ourselves and applause from the entire group at the end of a tough section or ust made progress on somethg which had challenged them. we rode at china Camp which has natural divisions for New, Intermdiate, and Advanced riders, and progressed to Tamarancho as the season moved on.
My point is that there is a lot to do before going out on dirt both for the leader and the new rider guest.
Guest...hmmmm...maybe that's it.
Another point I would like to make is that few new ridrs are on a team with 3 workouts a week; what we could do safely in 2 months may take several seasons for a New Rider. try to keep that in mind.
For my money the Bay Trail starting in Emeryville and going to Richmond Marina and back is a great place to start. You can get 25 miles in on a flat surface (a bit of hill at Golden Gate Fields) and there is a great Deli at the Richmond End; think of lunch or an Ice Cream; that helps to make it more fun and rewarding. And while you are sitting on the wharf in the warm sun nibbling on Focaccia and sipping Pelgrino (or a Bud and a Slim Jim) look to the East and you'll notice a 1000 ft. ridge, and a 1900 ft Volmer Peak. Noobie Territory? Not yet, but one day, with patience.













*









mtbr member
*

Join Date: Jan 2004




Posts: 778












Noob Riding vs. The basic tenet for East Bay Riding






First you climb 700 feet; road, dirt, doesn't matter. Seasoned riders take this for granted. Riders who can't get past this have bikes sitting in their garages gathering dust.
For most of us in this Forum we just climb and, by the time we are up there, we are nice and loose and have some endorphine thing going on and it only gets better. We shift our concerns to climbing fast or not using the granny or doing it on a Singlespeed or watching heart monitors or studying traction of various tires or "pushing ourselves" to ride with a faster rider Definitely not a noob perspective.
I have found that few riders, regardless of how much experience they have and, and additionally, how unwilling they are to admit this, understand how to ride with new riders. It isn't that they haven't been there before, it's just that they don't think like that anymore. Few riders know what it means to establish basic skills for new riders. Most toss out techniques too advanced for the new rider which are only appropriately constructed on other hard won skills. In the end they equate to something like: if you just pedal harder and fast it will be okay.
One of the most dangerous riders in this regard is a not so new rider who is taking new riders out. In truth they are so busy pushing themselves forward that they lose track of the new riders. Laying back is regressive and very much counter to what a new rider needs and counter to what the not so new rider is trying to achieve to be a maountain biker.
How many times in this Forum have I seen the question,"How do I ride with my (fill in the blank here) and still get my workout?" Simple answer? You don't. If you really want to develope the new rider into a riding bud then you have to give a great deal of your riding. That means previewing trails and courses beforehand (there's a workout for you) and putting in the time to search for the right one. Tossing a new rider onto a course without the leader pre-riding is a mistake. I'm hoping that the author of this thread can see this now but he seems to want to blame it on the Rating system; another not so new rider quality. This also means hanging back and riding WITH the new rider and not just waiting at an intersection or hilltop for them to catch up their hearts in their throats, chest heaving and driping with sweat while you rest under a tree eating an Apricot Cliff Bar and swill cyto. Sharing their frustration at certain foibles and pitfalls is key, too, as it creates a bond of identification between the riders as the problems become shared as part of the sport and make the new rider feel less like some freak who can't do what everyone else seems to do.
This list could ger very long; maybe it is because it comes from personality and not just skill and experience. I digress. Often.
When we start new riders at the High School Racing level we always have spanking brand new riders and kids who say (with their parents behind them) man I can already ride. We never presume upon any of that. This year we were lucky enought to have a Monday Spinning Class; no one falls off the back. Our Wednesday Ride weaved down to the Bay to do the Bay Trail to build basic pedaling skills, work on shifting, cockpit adustments, riding position, bringing the body down and forward and bringing the knees in and building group riding skills by teaching paceline and the responsibility we all have to pay attention and not do stupid things. Oh there was whining (this is lame/I can't keep up) but after a couple of months we had a paceline to be proud of and did miles of smooth and continuous non-stop riding and we would use that as our warm-up and THEN go climb the paved hills up to Wildcat and Tilden. Freshmen boys and girls.
Anyhow, when it came time to do dirt, which was done on Saturdays, the kids had power and skill. At that point we could concentrate on the skills required to ride dirt; managing uneven and varying surfaces and climbing and descending steeps, all on trails my coaches and I knew like the back of our hands. The Rider off the back usually got a constant workshop on their skills along with huge amounts of encouragement, reassurance and making fun of ourselves and applause from the entire group at the end of a tough section or ust made progress on somethg which had challenged them. we rode at china Camp which has natural divisions for New, Intermdiate, and Advanced riders, and progressed to Tamarancho as the season moved on.
My point is that there is a lot to do before going out on dirt both for the leader and the new rider guest.
Guest...hmmmm...maybe that's it.
Another point I would like to make is that few new ridrs are on a team with 3 workouts a week; what we could do safely in 2 months may take several seasons for a New Rider. try to keep that in mind.
For my money the Bay Trail starting in Emeryville and going to Richmond Marina and back is a great place to start. You can get 25 miles in on a flat surface (a bit of hill at Golden Gate Fields) and there is a great Deli at the Richmond End; think of lunch or an Ice Cream; that helps to make it more fun and rewarding. And while you are sitting on the wharf in the warm sun nibbling on Focaccia and sipping Pelgrino (or a Bud and a Slim Jim) look to the East and you'll notice a 1000 ft. ridge, and a 1900 ft Volmer Peak. Noobie Territory? Not yet, but one day, with patience.













*


mtbr member
*

Join Date: Jan 2004




Posts: 778












Noob Riding vs. The basic tenet for East Bay Riding






First you climb 700 feet; road, dirt, doesn't matter. Seasoned riders take this for granted. Riders who can't get past this have bikes sitting in their garages gathering dust.
For most of us in this Forum we just climb and, by the time we are up there, we are nice and loose and have some endorphine thing going on and it only gets better. We shift our concerns to climbing fast or not using the granny or doing it on a Singlespeed or watching heart monitors or studying traction of various tires or "pushing ourselves" to ride with a faster rider Definitely not a noob perspective.
I have found that few riders, regardless of how much experience they have and, and additionally, how unwilling they are to admit this, understand how to ride with new riders. It isn't that they haven't been there before, it's just that they don't think like that anymore. Few riders know what it means to establish basic skills for new riders. Most toss out techniques too advanced for the new rider which are only appropriately constructed on other hard won skills. In the end they equate to something like: if you just pedal harder and fast it will be okay.
One of the most dangerous riders in this regard is a not so new rider who is taking new riders out. In truth they are so busy pushing themselves forward that they lose track of the new riders. Laying back is regressive and very much counter to what a new rider needs and counter to what the not so new rider is trying to achieve to be a maountain biker.
How many times in this Forum have I seen the question,"How do I ride with my (fill in the blank here) and still get my workout?" Simple answer? You don't. If you really want to develope the new rider into a riding bud then you have to give a great deal of your riding. That means previewing trails and courses beforehand (there's a workout for you) and putting in the time to search for the right one. Tossing a new rider onto a course without the leader pre-riding is a mistake. I'm hoping that the author of this thread can see this now but he seems to want to blame it on the Rating system; another not so new rider quality. This also means hanging back and riding WITH the new rider and not just waiting at an intersection or hilltop for them to catch up their hearts in their throats, chest heaving and driping with sweat while you rest under a tree eating an Apricot Cliff Bar and swill cyto. Sharing their frustration at certain foibles and pitfalls is key, too, as it creates a bond of identification between the riders as the problems become shared as part of the sport and make the new rider feel less like some freak who can't do what everyone else seems to do.
This list could ger very long; maybe it is because it comes from personality and not just skill and experience. I digress. Often.
When we start new riders at the High School Racing level we always have spanking brand new riders and kids who say (with their parents behind them) man I can already ride. We never presume upon any of that. This year we were lucky enought to have a Monday Spinning Class; no one falls off the back. Our Wednesday Ride weaved down to the Bay to do the Bay Trail to build basic pedaling skills, work on shifting, cockpit adustments, riding position, bringing the body down and forward and bringing the knees in and building group riding skills by teaching paceline and the responsibility we all have to pay attention and not do stupid things. Oh there was whining (this is lame/I can't keep up) but after a couple of months we had a paceline to be proud of and did miles of smooth and continuous non-stop riding and we would use that as our warm-up and THEN go climb the paved hills up to Wildcat and Tilden. Freshmen boys and girls.
Anyhow, when it came time to do dirt, which was done on Saturdays, the kids had power and skill. At that point we could concentrate on the skills required to ride dirt; managing uneven and varying surfaces and climbing and descending steeps, all on trails my coaches and I knew like the back of our hands. The Rider off the back usually got a constant workshop on their skills along with huge amounts of encouragement, reassurance and making fun of ourselves and applause from the entire group at the end of a tough section or ust made progress on somethg which had challenged them. we rode at china Camp which has natural divisions for New, Intermdiate, and Advanced riders, and progressed to Tamarancho as the season moved on.
My point is that there is a lot to do before going out on dirt both for the leader and the new rider guest.
Guest...hmmmm...maybe that's it.
Another point I would like to make is that few new ridrs are on a team with 3 workouts a week; what we could do safely in 2 months may take several seasons for a New Rider. try to keep that in mind.
For my money the Bay Trail starting in Emeryville and going to Richmond Marina and back is a great place to start. You can get 25 miles in on a flat surface (a bit of hill at Golden Gate Fields) and there is a great Deli at the Richmond End; think of lunch or an Ice Cream; that helps to make it more fun and rewarding. And while you are sitting on the wharf in the warm sun nibbling on Focaccia and sipping Pelgrino (or a Bud and a Slim Jim) look to the East and you'll notice a 1000 ft. ridge, and a 1900 ft Volmer Peak. Noobie Territory? Not yet, but one day, with patience.













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Berkeley Mike

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New Riders.
First you climb 700 feet; road, dirt, doesn't matter. Seasoned riders take this for granted. Riders who can't get past this have bikes sitting in their garages gathering dust.
For most of us in this Forum we just climb and, by the time we are up there, we are nice and loose and have some endorphine thing going on and it only gets better. We shift our concerns to climbing fast or not using the granny or doing it on a Singlespeed or watching heart monitors or studying traction of various tires or "pushing ourselves" to ride with a faster rider Definitely not a noob perspective.
I have found that few riders, regardless of how much experience they have and, most especially, how unwilling they are to admit this, understand how to ride with new riders. It isn't that they haven't been there before, it's just that they don't think like that anymore. Few riders know what it means to establish basic skills for new riders. Most toss out techniques too advanced for the new rider which are only appropriately constructed on other hard won skills. In the end they equate to something like: if you just pedal harder and fast it will be okay.
One of the most dangerous riders in this regard is a not so new rider who is taking new riders out. In truth they are so busy pushing themselves forward that they lose track of the new riders. Laying back is regressive and very much counter to what a new rider needs and counter to what teh not so new rider is trying to achieve to be a maountain biker.
How many times in this Forum have I seen the question,"How do I ride with my (fill in the blank here) and still get my workout?" Simple answer? You don't. If you really want to develope the new rider into a riding bud then you have to give a great deal of your riding. That means previewing trails and courses beforehand (there's a workout for you) and putting in the time to search for the right one. Tossing a new rider onto a course without the leader pre-riding is a mistake. I'm hoping that th author of this thread can see this now but he seems to want to blame it on the Rating system; another not so new rider quality. This also means hanging back and riding WITH the new rider and not just waiting at an intersection or hilltop for them to catch up. Sharing their frustration at certain foibles and pitfalls is key, too, as it creates a bond of identification between the riders as the problems become shared as part of the sport and make the new rider feel less like some freak who can't do what everyone else seems to do.
This list could ger very long; maybe it is because it comes from personality and not just skill and experience.
When we start new riders at the High School Racing level we always have spanking brand new riders and kids who say (with their parents behind them) man I can already ride. We never presume upon any of that. This year we were lucky enought to have a Monday Spinning Class; no one falls off the back. Our Wednesday Ride weaved down to the Bay to do the Bay Trail to build basic pedaling skills, work on shifting, cockpit adustments, riding position, bringing the body down and forward and bringing the knees in and building group riding skills by teaching paceline and the responsibility we all have to pay attention and not do stupid things. Oh there was whining but after a couple of months we had a paceline to be proud of and did miles of smooth and continuous non-stop riding and we would use that as our warm-up and THEN go climb the paved hills up to Tilden.
Anyhow, when it came time to do dirt, which was done on Saturdays, the kids had power and skill. At that point we could concentrate on the skills required to ride dirt; managing uneven and varying surfaces and climbing and descending steeps. all on trails my coaches and I knew like the back of our hands. The Rider off the back usually got a constant workshop on their skills along with huge amounts of encouragement, reassurance and making fun of ourselves.
My point is that there is a lot to do before going out on dirt both for the leader and the new rider guest.
Guest...hmmmm...maybe that's it.
Another point I would like to make is that few new riders are on a team with 3 workouts a week; what we could do safely in 2 months may take several seasons for a New Rider. Try to keep that in mind.
For my money the Bay Trail starting in Emeryville and going to Richmond Marina and back is a great place to start. You can get 25 miles in on a flat surface (a bit of hill at Golden Gate Fields) and there is a great Deli at the Richmond End; think of lunch or an Ice Cream; that helps to make it more fun and rewarding. And while you are sitting on the wharf in the warm sun nibbling on Focaccia and sipping Pelgrino (or a Bud and a Slim Jim) look to the East and you'll notice a 1000 ft. ridge, and a 1900 ft Volmer Peak. Noobie Territory? Not yet, but one day, with patience.