Moab approves big box stores - care to email the City?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Moab approves big box stores - care to email the City?

    For those of you who care - the Moab City Council has approved the building of big box stores:

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8718822

    If you read the article and decide you have an opinion, you can email Moab City council here:

    http://www.moabcity.org/contact.cfm?...TOKEN=93944747

    Moab makes a lot of money from tourist dollars, so your opinions matter, wherever you live.
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  2. #2
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    I think we should let the people of moab decide where they want to shop. I live 1000 miles away - why would I tell them what we can and can't have?

    If we visit there we are guests. Would you not ride their trails becuase they have a best buy in town?

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  3. #3
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    I believe that there are things worth protecting in this world, even if they or the cause of their problems aren't in my backyard. I care about things. Heck, I even recycle and mentor kids through Big Sisters... I guess that makes my opinion not valuable to some.

    Moab is currently in a state of flux. The UMTRA project is going to move 1500 families into town for a 20-year uranium tailings removal project. These families are not moving to Moab because they like the outdoors, and they will vote that way (1500 families will be a huge percentage of Moab voters). They will also choose to patronize big-box stores rather than local retailers, which will open the door to even more development.

    If you haven't been to Moab, you might not understand how much impact something like this will have. It isn't the first big-box store that I fear, it is the 10th.
    Last edited by chuky; 03-27-2008 at 04:42 PM.
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    Moab still feels like an Wild West kind of town. It would ruin the experience if Big Box stores were to show up. Besides, would tourists want to visit another copy of Austin? (I live in Houston, by the way) Not wanting to upset anybody, but maybe that's why the "keep Austin weird" campaign has been so popular...

  5. #5
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    It's not necessarily a given that the big box stores will come. It takes two things to make one successful. First, people need to want to shop there, but second, they need a local population willing to take crap wages to staff it. -

    Los Alamos, NM, is a prime example of a place where big box stores won't work. The population of the town is approximately 15,000...but there is no big box store. No WalMart, no Target, no Barnes&Noble, etc. There's one supermarket and a locally owned department store. Not much else. Sure, the town has the highest density of millionaires in the country. They'd love to shop at a big box store--absolutely no problem there. The issue is that there is no one to staff it. Almost everyone works for the lab, or is a spouse of someone at the lab and wouldn't dare stoop to working at a big box store. So...there's no big box stores.

    Moab may be like that. The people who work at the Uranium tailing site and their spouses aren't going to staff it. Seems most other people are busy doing outdoorsy stuff. So...whose going to work there?
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  6. #6
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    There are lots of low income people in Southern Utah.
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  7. #7
    JMH
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    Seems like the point of the thread was to alert anyone who cares that the City has started the process, not start a debate about what might or might not transpire...

    I personally don't want to see WalMart in Moab, and it's worth a few minutes of my time to tell the Moab City Council. It's not like WalMart is sniffing around Moab because they are interested in improving the town.

    You can get a shitty department store experience anywhere. But there is only one Moab... might be worth attempting to keep it from turning into Everywhere Else.

    JMH

  8. #8
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    WallMart will keep 'em that way....

    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    There are lots of low income people in Southern Utah.
    They're not going to get outta poverty working or shopping at Wal-Mart. If anything this will keep them in poverty, right where Wal-Mart wants them. I personally don't shop there on principle. No, I'm no better than anyone else, I just won't feed the beast.
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  9. #9
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    I'm sorry to hear that.

    Nothing sucks the soul out of a quaint, unique small town faster than a Wal-Mart. The day they put one in Ely will be the day I start looking for other options.
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  10. #10
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    the county council here has been working on the issue of banning big box retailers, problem is they are already here. But if anyone is interested in how communities are trying to deal with this, we are probably a good example. (They are also working on a plastic bag ban.)

    http://mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/36813.html
    the curious can go to the maui news site and search for big box ban and get lots of discussion.

  11. #11
    txn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotmilky
    It's not necessarily a given that the big box stores will come. It takes two things to make one successful. First, people need to want to shop there, but second, they need a local population willing to take crap wages to staff it. -

    Los Alamos, NM, is a prime example of a place where big box stores won't work. The population of the town is approximately 15,000...but there is no big box store. No WalMart, no Target, no Barnes&Noble, etc. There's one supermarket and a locally owned department store. Not much else. Sure, the town has the highest density of millionaires in the country. They'd love to shop at a big box store--absolutely no problem there. The issue is that there is no one to staff it. Almost everyone works for the lab, or is a spouse of someone at the lab and wouldn't dare stoop to working at a big box store. So...there's no big box stores.

    Moab may be like that. The people who work at the Uranium tailing site and their spouses aren't going to staff it. Seems most other people are busy doing outdoorsy stuff. So...whose going to work there?

    That's not a fair comparison. Los Alamos is also like half an hour from Santa Fe, which is full of big box shopping. You know what's within half an hour of Moab? Rocks.

  12. #12
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    Crap.

    If only they would sell real beer in Moab, besides that damn State store, then I would Care.

    If the people of Moab didn't want a big box, they wouldn't shop at one. But what will happen is Wal-Mart will move in, and everyone will shop there. Should I feel bad about peoples choice to do that? Should I anticipate it and complain when I don't live there?

    Walmart and porn have the same thing in common. Most people won't admit it, but they like both of them.

    And speaking of, Moab needs more porn!

  13. #13
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    The issue is more complex than originally stated.

    The county line between Grand County (in which Moab sits) and San Juan County (Monticello, Blanding) is only a few miles south of Moab. Thus, if Moab votes no to a big box store, San Juan County will allow one to be constructed just over the county line in the south part of our valley. That means Moab businesses will take a beating and all of the tax revenue will go to communities about an hour away. If there is going to be a big box store here (the demographics are apparently still pretty weak for a Wal Mart), despite my partial loathing of such entities, I would rather that we (the Grand County citizens) get the tax money rather than the citizens of San Juan County, since the impact of such a store will be felt most acutely in our county.

    hfly

  14. #14
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    The number of Next, Huffy, Roadmasters, and cheap Mongoose bike sightings on the Slickrock and Porcupine Rim trails will increase because Wally World will promote their bikes for said trails. Sad.

  15. #15
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    wal-mart will build one, even if the down pop is less then 6,000 and dying ... and even if there is another one within 30 min of that location ...

    they would esp consider building one ... if it is a tourist place .. (never been to moab so dont know the place) ...

    and they won't hesitate to do like what hfly said ...

  16. #16
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    Good thing we have real smart people who live thousands of miles away, but still know what's best for Moab.


    BTW, should they put in a stop light at the intersection of Maple and third ave? Please get back to them as soon as you can. They really need your input.
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  17. #17
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    Ever buy bike parts on line?

    Or do you always support your LBS? Same issue, really. If you want the small local business to survive, you support them. We cyclist really tend to be two-faced on some issues. Buy on-line cause the LBS charges more, takes a couple days to get part, etc. while crying because a big box store is built that sells cheap bikes in mass.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Crap.

    If only they would sell real beer in Moab, besides that damn State store, then I would Care.
    Real beer ?! Did you miss the Moab brewery ? Derailleur Ale's was my fav


  19. #19
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    I'd welcome a huge azz BevMo in Moab....that would help me lighten my load to the Land of Zion.

    "After this case and the case after that - we're outta beer!"
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoLLinFaTTies
    Real beer ?! Did you miss the Moab brewery ? Derailleur Ale's was my fav
    It tastes like it only has 3.2% alcohol....

    ....cuz it does.

    But it's ok...i drink it when I'm there.

  21. #21
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    I can see both sides of the argument on this one, in general I think the less Wal-Marts we have the better, but I also believe in a free market so artifically restricting business usually ends up being counter-productive. I try not to shop at Wal-Mart anymore, I probably go there once every 3 months when I just "must" have something at 3:00am. I have a few reasons why I've decided not to shop there anymore, but mostly it's because everytime I go there I feel like Wal-mart has sucked away a chunk of my life disproportionate to the amount of time I spend in there. Sort of like in the move "The Princess Bride" with the life sucking machine. So I'm curious does anyone here get that same sensation?

  22. #22
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    How can you guarantee that any big box retailer will not ask for tax incentives to build a store? They almost always do. Whether it be an infrastructure 'break', literal tax breaks for bringing tax dollars 'in' or forcing landowners into giving the land away at a steal.

    Bigbox retailers are not good for small communities, UNLESS the community itself knows the perils of having a store like that, and chooses to support the local home brewed establishments.

    The last two communities I've lived in have been that way. Big boxes are here, but there are enough citizens that aren't willing to support them that go to the local merchants.
    Just a regular guy.

  23. #23
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    Interesting discussion, if a little out of place. (Where do these topics go, now that F88 is no more?)
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  24. #24
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    Right here

    In the past "Passion" covered everything. As so many have said, if you don't like, don't read it. What was F88 anyway. I've seen the title dropped enough but really have no idea what it was. Some type of gov'ment plot to corral the mal-contents?

  25. #25
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev Bubba
    In the past "Passion" covered everything.
    My guideline is what it states at present: "Share riding experiences."

    Call me crazy, but a discussion of local government and/or big box stores doesn't fit.

    But of course, feel free to ignore my opinion on the matter.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by txn

    That is one funny blog.

    And more funny is one of the google ads on the page is "Anger Management Certification."


    and finally....

    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpres...0/61-bicycles/

    That makes this thread officially on topic.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by austin_bike
    I think we should let the people of moab decide where they want to shop. I live 1000 miles away - why would I tell them what we can and can't have?

    If we visit there we are guests. Would you not ride their trails becuase they have a best buy in town?

    Some things are best handled locally.
    +1.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    Seems like the point of the thread was to alert anyone who cares that the City has started the process, not start a debate about what might or might not transpire...

    I personally don't want to see WalMart in Moab, and it's worth a few minutes of my time to tell the Moab City Council. It's not like WalMart is sniffing around Moab because they are interested in improving the town.

    You can get a shitty department store experience anywhere. But there is only one Moab... might be worth attempting to keep it from turning into Everywhere Else.

    JMH
    +1.

  30. #30
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    Mal-Wart

    One of the problems with a big box in Moab is that there is already a serious employee shortage. Rents are way too high in relation to local wages, and buying on a local paycheck is pretty much out of the question. This is a lot like Telluride, Aspen, Vail, etc, except there is nowhere to commute from within 90 minutes. A big box moving in will be able to raise wages just enough to attract the workers, and the local businesses will go under. Then, big box owns the labor market, and no one wins.

    As mentioned, it is a tough situation for the city, because if they don't accommodate Wal Mart, they'll just build it down in San Juan, and Moab gets the pain without the revenue. It sure would be nice to see San Juan send the message that it isn't welcome there, but that isn't going to happen.

    Since the majority of shoppers are going to be from elsewhere, even a boycott if one was built, is likely to fail.

    It is a tough situation. To me, the best case scenario would be for Grand County Water and Sewer (which services the San Juan side of Spanish Valley) to refuse to provide water and sewer, and then Moab can knock it down with zoning restrictions.

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroutBum

    What a clusterfork Wal Mart is. But then, it is part and parcel of our money grubbing society.

    I remember reading a few years ago about a guy who had worked for IBM for 30 years. He started his retirement by taking his last few weeks of vacation. He died while on 'vacation' instead of being officially 'retired', and this technicality cost his widow thousands of dollars per month. They wouldn't bend.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That is one funny blog.

    And more funny is one of the google ads on the page is "Anger Management Certification."


    and finally....

    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpres...0/61-bicycles/

    That makes this thread officially on topic.
    Call me crazy, but one of the things I look forward to when I am in Moab is shopping at Walker Drug.

    Walker Drug is your headquarters in Moab for: Cosmetics, Stationary, Toys, Health & Beauty Aids, 35mm Film/Cameras, Housewares, Hardware, Picnic Supplies, Camping Supplies, Sporting Goods, Goodies/Cold Drinks Ice/Coolers, Greeting Cards, Swimming Suits, Baby Supplies, Batteries, Bicycle Accessories.
    Where else can you get some (ironic) Carhartts, an American made leather belt that doesn't suck, handgun ammo, propane, socks, duct tape, and drugs, all at one place?

    If only they'd run the Official State Liquor Store there, it would truly be one stop shopping.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3nf
    Call me crazy, but one of the things I look forward to when I am in Moab is shopping at Walker Drug.



    Where else can you get some (ironic) Carhartts, an American made leather belt that doesn't suck, handgun ammo, propane, socks, duct tape, and drugs, all at one place?

    If only they'd run the Official State Liquor Store there, it would truly be one stop shopping.
    City Market grocery store is kind of cool too! The people who work there are really nice and helpful. =GT2005

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Good thing we have real smart people who live thousands of miles away, but still know what's best for Moab.


    BTW, should they put in a stop light at the intersection of Maple and third ave? Please get back to them as soon as you can. They really need your input.
    I agree. I visit Moab maybe once a year, sometimes every other year, so realistically what right do I have to tell the citizens of Moab what should be done with their town? Yeah it's a nice a quaint town now but it's not my town, I only visit there. We should have written and *****ed about how they should have run their town 20 years ago when I first visited Moab, afterall it was even more quaint then. We need to rally and protect the poor dumb citizens of Moab from themselves
    You better take care of me, Lord. If you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

  36. #36
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    On one hand, it's entirely the peoples of Moab's choice.
    On the other, many of us have lived in similar places, and we've learned a hard lesson from the experience of going through what they're about to.

    From the tax breaks they demand, to the land grabs, to the low wage jobs they provide, to the money they suck out of the community, they are a drain on communities, no debate about it. Gander Mountain was the only one to try to keep their money going back to their communities, and they received twenty kinds of hell for it, including being sued by Cabelas and even some office supply chains for setting a precedent everyone else might someday have to follow.

    On one hand, it's the people of Moab's money.
    On the other hand, it's a tourist town. We're the tourists. If Moab is going to become less attractive to tourists because it's going to turn into a strip of Walmarts and Best Buys, then they may appreciate knowing beforehand.

    Restricting free trade can have negative consequences.
    Letting the foxes rule the henhouse can too.

    If I had to choose between a system where people with ideas and drive can put it all together and become entrepreneurs and run their own businesses, instilling in themselves and their communities a sense of well-earned pride, or a system where a big money-sucking hog comes in and gives everyone a stable, low-paying job with no hope of advancement or ownership, I know which I'd choose. One really looks like the American Way I like to believe in, and the other looks a hell of a lot like the lazy, easy way out.

    Speaking of WalMart, there was a place that tried like hell to keep WalMart out, but the company's attorneys strong-armed and weaseled their way in over a three year period anyway. However, the community repeatedly vandalized and burned the project down, and after a few years of still not being able to get their doors open, WalMart actually did give up. I read about this years ago. I'm sure it'll come up in a search.
    Last edited by HotBlack; 03-29-2008 at 06:35 PM.

  37. #37
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    South Park's take on this subject

    Click here for South Park's take on this subject.

  38. #38
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    It seems like "made in china" is going to Moab ...

  39. #39
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    This is what I wondered.

    Quote Originally Posted by hfly
    The issue is more complex than originally stated.

    The county line between Grand County (in which Moab sits) and San Juan County (Monticello, Blanding) is only a few miles south of Moab. Thus, if Moab votes no to a big box store, San Juan County will allow one to be constructed just over the county line in the south part of our valley. That means Moab businesses will take a beating and all of the tax revenue will go to communities about an hour away. If there is going to be a big box store here (the demographics are apparently still pretty weak for a Wal Mart), despite my partial loathing of such entities, I would rather that we (the Grand County citizens) get the tax money rather than the citizens of San Juan County, since the impact of such a store will be felt most acutely in our county.

    hfly
    hfly, I was wondering about the available land issue. There are some obvious physical/geographical restraints in Spanish Valley...though I still see some vacant land plots to the south...and I wish they'd stay that way. I didn't realize the county line issue. I can see the train wreck coming on that one the way you describe it.

    On both a side and maybe off topic note, this just continues to point out the real problem and not just the symptom of issues like these...too many people. I hear the hue and cry of environmental disaster, wildlife encroachment, urban sprawl, and the loss of "quality of life"...but usually no one addresses the novel idea of cutting back on people. No, I'm not talking about death camps or other nonsense...just the responsible act of not polluting the joint with too many people. Sorry for the soapbox moment, and one might wonder why I even jagged off on it, but it is the root cause and seemingly unaddressed 500lb. elephant in the corner. I love Moab dearly...among other places...and am old enough to have seen some of them lose their soul to the likes of developers, yuppies, big business, and unbridled greed. This is way bigger than WalMart.

  40. #40
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    I completely agree. There are too many people, and globally, the problem isn't being addressed in the way it should.

    We can make some local changes, though. Part of cutting back on people is making a conscious choice to not support the population - don't build new housing and don't create new businesses, require in-fill, first. It is a scary choice that goes against what a lot of people consider to be the "natural" and "right" way of doing things, and I think in the end, our unwillingness to make this choice will be our doom.

    I doubt that there is anything that Walmart will carry that is truly necessary to anyone's well being in Moab, but having the extra supply available will encourage development in a tangental way. Large corporations with no personal stake in an area don't see or feel the negative effects of their presence in a community. They will donate a token amount of money to a local cause, and cite that as a positive influence. What they won't do is mitigate the loss of local businesses, they won't support their employees with benefits (they will leave that to local tax coffers, and there goes the city's tax profit), and they won't help Moab deal with the big box stores that come after. Because they aren't locally owned, they have no responsibility to the community as a whole. The stockholders of WalMart don't go to church every Sunday with the owners of the local hardware store, nor do they get coffee at the same place as the owners of the local camping supply store, and their kids don't go to school with kids whose parents own the local clothing store. They don't care about the negative effects of their presence, as long as the stock keeps improving.

    For those who are citing the the "white people" site - that is a lazy joke, and it is not only the white middle class that contains educated people who recognize the threat of businesses without community roots:
    http://www.laane.org/pressroom/stori...wsService.html

    One of my favorite things about Utah is the strength of the local business community. I think that the state's history has led to a population that tends to be self-reliant and understands the value of healthy local businesses.
    Last edited by chuky; 04-01-2008 at 11:21 AM.
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  41. #41
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    Walmart Sucks period, your town, my town, their town.


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  42. #42
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    It does, if the reason that the town is expanding is because of our riding experiences. There are a lot of MTBr members who have had Passion experiences in Moab.

    For a biased but passionate take on what MTB riders have done to Moab, check out Brave New West by Jim Stiles (editor of the Zephyr). He is by no means even-handed, but his perspective is real. In a way, the book is a eulogy more than anything else. However, it is quite applicable to ANYONE who participates in recreational activities in natural areas, in the sense that it dispenses (handily) the idea that recreation is not an extractive industry, like mining or ranching are.
    Last edited by chuky; 04-01-2008 at 10:40 AM.
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  43. #43
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    I have been reading and just returned from a visit to the Moab area ... it is a shame to watch magnificent places get overrun by the desire to make more $...

    I tend to agree w/ a lot of what Chuky has said - the decisions to NOT get bigger and have more economic development is beyond the mindset of many. Some of that is simply the desire to be "financially comfortable" which not an unreasonable desire at all... except there is no stopping that train once it has started ... not that I've ever seen. And continued economic growth is unsustainable without significant costs... particularly the difficult to measure social impacts. When has a community changed "too much"? That's not to mention the obviously visible environmental impacts of strip malls and pavement where sandstone mesas once stood.

    My other issue w/ WalMart is that the $ from the community that is spent there goes to the stockholders compared to locally owned businesses that will put that $ back into the community simply by living there...

    Complex issues and clearly not black and white ...

    S
    "You know how they make aluminum bike frames? They take steel and suck out all the soul..."

  44. #44
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    no one addresses the novel idea of cutting back on people. No, I'm not talking about death camps or other nonsense...just the responsible act of not polluting the joint with too many people.
    Limiting our own numbers is easier said than done. Where do you start? Do you mandate only one child per married couple? Do you mandate that anyone who engages in a health threatening activity (e.g., smoking, being a lazy, fat motherscratcher, B.A.S.E. jumping) be allowed to die from ill health and bad choices? Do you limit healthcare to persons who deserve it (and who are they)? Do you deny end-of-life heroic measures such as life support? Do you mandate abortion? How do you do it?

  45. #45
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    For those who are citing the the "white people" site - that is a lazy joke...
    I don't know, I thought it was quite funny.

  46. #46
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    I haven't been to Moab yet and someone want to mess it up??? I'm upset...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    For those who are citing the the "white people" site - that is a lazy joke...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    I don't know, I thought it was quite funny.
    I agree, but not half as funny* as:

    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    There are too many people, and globally, the probablem isn't being addressed in the way it should.

    We can make some local changes, though. Part of cutting back on people is making a conscious choice to not support the population - don't build new housing and don't create new businesses, require in-fill, first. It is a scary choice that goes against what a lot of people consider to be the "natural" and "right" way of doing things, and I think in the end, our unwillingness to make this choice will be our doom.
    * By funny, I mean frightening.

  48. #48
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvrbob86
    I agree, but not half as funny* as:



    * By funny, I mean frightening.
    Yeah, that is frightening.

    The description kind of reminds me of a place I used to live.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Nat; 04-01-2008 at 11:36 AM.

  49. #49
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    A fairly well written critique of SWPL:
    http://www.tnr.com/booksarts/story.h...7-6ffc44f40a48

    As far as requiring in-fill being scary, whatever. New construction is one of the most damaging things you can do to the environment, and sprawl has a history of devaluing city cores.

    This is fun, too:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/subprime

    I think this thread has reached the end of intelligent contribution, anyway. It was meant more as a heads-up than anything else.
    I only attempt to change the world in the appropriate World-Changing venues and forums.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    I think this thread has reached the end of intelligent contribution, anyway.
    Yes. Before it even started.

  51. #51
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvrbob86
    Yes. Before it even started.
    Who comes to MTBR for that anyway?

    Chuky, even if there was a world-wide mandate of "no new businesses" and "no new construction" people would still find a way to make more babies.

    Edit: I suppose we could mandate abstinence and contraception. That'd probably work.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    people would still find a way to make more babies.
    Not confused on that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Who comes to MTBR for that anyway?
    If you don't find a thread interesting, don't post, and if you don't come to MTBR for politics, don't read those threads. Nothing kills an issue faster than disinterest. Your lack of response could send this to page 2 and make room for the things you like that much more quickly.
    I only attempt to change the world in the appropriate World-Changing venues and forums.

  53. #53
    TNC
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    Yes, I definitely agree, Nat. It's just frustrating when it seems we just keep trying to treat symptoms instead of the bigger root cause. No amount of environmental control, killing WalMart urban sprawl, or draconian ELF style guerilla tactics will really change our ultimate situation if population goes unchecked. Again, perhaps this wasn't the time or place to even mention the issue.

  54. #54
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    bump : )
    beaver hunt

  55. #55
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    Not confused on that point.




    If you don't find a thread interesting, don't post, and if you don't come to MTBR for politics, don't read those threads. Nothing kills an issue faster than disinterest. Your lack of response could send this to page 2 and make room for the things you like that much more quickly.
    Well Chuky, I never said I didn't find this thread interesting (because I do). I meant, "who comes to MTBR to change the world?"

  56. #56
    JMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Well Chuky, I never said I didn't find this thread interesting (because I do). I meant, "who comes to MTBR to change the world?"
    Indeed, it doesn't sound as if Nat is contradicting any of Chuky's points.

    But clearly Chuky loves her some Moab and hates her some WalMart, and I am sensing some extreme Passion... and I do feel it relates to MTBR, MTB riding and any members who visit and care about Moab. Tourism is down, so Moab is feeling the crunch.

    So I suggest this: All concerned MTBR members should immediately begin planning to visit Moab sometime within the next month. Maybe the week after the FTFF? Stay longer than usual, perhaps 7 full days. Instead of drinking only two or three pints of Dead Horse after each ride, drink five or more. Shuttle every ride to support the folks who make a living hauling our smelly carcasses up Sand Flats. I propose two days solid of shuttling from Hazzard down. Heck, make it three days.

    It's only by making enormous sacrifices such as these that we can truly make a difference.

    JMH

  57. #57
    TNC
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    Stay a week?!!!! Man, we stay at least two weeks...LOL! Yes, we're addicted and making extreme sacrifices for the good folk of Moab.

  58. #58
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    Stay a week?!!!! Man, we stay at least two weeks...LOL! Yes, we're addicted and making extreme sacrifices for the good folk of Moab.
    Man, if we all show up in Moab within the next month we'll clean out all the stores' shelves! If only there were a very large store that could supply us all with the goods we'd need at unexpectedly low prices...

  59. #59
    JMH
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    You may be pure evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Man, if we all show up in Moab within the next month we'll clean out all the stores' shelves! If only there were a very large store that could supply us all with the goods we'd need at unexpectedly low prices...

  60. #60
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH


    You may be pure evil.
    I have so little self-control sometimes!

  61. #61
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    There is one place where you can move that does remove the surplus population and reduces the birth rate. They limit couples to having only one child, and make them abort any additional ones; especially girls, and they eliminate their citizens on a regular basis, like the Tibetans. Have fun in China! I'd rather see a Wal Mart in Moab than the effects of
    "cutting back on people"!

  62. #62
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    Well, I just wrote the city a nice letter. Thanks for the tip, Chuky.

    And what's this? Whining about weak beer? What, you can't brew your own? It's so easy an infinite number of typewriting monkeys could do it. It's one of the things that make going to Moab fun. I brew something new for every trip, and usually someone else does a batch of something complimentary, so that if one turns out not so good (when does your own beer ever not taste great?), you can blend em together and you've got your totally unique Moab 2008 brew. Give your extras to the locals, tell em how much you appreciate sharing their trails, & everybody's happy.

    Or be a stick in the mud, whine for your walmart, and complain about the lack of access to your everyday brand-name mass-produced products, and how inconvenient it all is, being out in the middle of a huge desert.

    Your choice, I guess.


    ---added---


    I agree, China's controlling its population! Horrific! I'd much prefer to see them enjoy unrestricted overpopulation. Disease, starvation, constant civil war, etc... great stuff!
    The view from the velvet cushion over here sure is nice isn't it? 5% of the worlds population, and 95% of its money. Ahhhh... life is good. If only everyone would just be like us. Oh, wait, they can't, can they, or we wouldn't be able to be like us ourselves.
    Last edited by HotBlack; 04-02-2008 at 08:07 PM.

  63. #63
    TNC
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    Financial impact

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Man, if we all show up in Moab within the next month we'll clean out all the stores' shelves! If only there were a very large store that could supply us all with the goods we'd need at unexpectedly low prices...
    LOL!...yeah, I plan on cleaning out some shelves at the City Market, the Moab Diner, and at least two trips to the State Liquor Store. All complaints of weak beer can be addressed by cheap tequila at the SLS.

    Oh...and I just remembered the painful aspect of buying gas at the Maverick or one of the other fossil fuel dispensers. Thank goodness for cheap camping in the BLM land.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    check out Brave New West by Jim Stiles .
    Ironic. After reading this post yesterday, I saw this book in the window of my locally owned bookstore while wifey and I were walking in our beautiful downtown area after patronizing two locally owned food and drink places. I'll have to pick it up.

    I'm not a big box fan but despite having quite a few big box stores here we still have a vibrant downtown. Despite three large corporate book stores we still have the same 2 locally owned stores that were here before the big boxes came. Why? I think it's because we have enough well healed folks who are able to put their money where their ethics are.

    Maybe all hope is not lost for Moab. Then again, I work with a guy who lived there in teh 70s. He says Moab was already lost 15 years ago. It's all perspective I suppose.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dir-T
    Then again, I work with a guy who lived there in teh 70s. He says Moab was already lost 15 years ago. It's all perspective I suppose.
    Ha. Well sure. Mountain Bikers changed it. So too did the four wheelers & rock crawlers. And the Hikers before. But I'd bet that to the natives of Moab, mountain bikers showing up pales in comparison to the change that the first northern European settlers brought.

    No one likes seeing a place change once they've come to it. Reminds us that time stands still for no one.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotBlack
    Ha. Well sure. Mountain Bikers changed it. So too did the four wheelers & rock crawlers. And the Hikers before. But I'd bet that to the natives of Moab, mountain bikers showing up pales in comparison to the change that the first northern European settlers brought.

    No one likes seeing a place change once they've come to it. Reminds us that time stands still for no one.
    Amen. Thanks for that.

    On the geologic timescale, the landscape of Moab itself is a quick, catastrophic destruction -- like knocking over in one second a sand castle that took days to build.

    hfly

  67. #67
    gnar, brah
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    Quote Originally Posted by austin_bike
    I think we should let the people of moab decide where they want to shop. I live 1000 miles away - why would I tell them what we can and can't have?

    If we visit there we are guests. Would you not ride their trails becuase they have a best buy in town?

    Some things are best handled locally.
    Well said.
    Trestle Bike Park

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