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  1. #1
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    E-bike Passion?

    I couldnít figure out if this belonged in commuting, ebikes, cargo bikes or what? But I guess if youíre going to go to these extremes to commute like this, that is passion in itself! And look, an acceptable use of an ebike to enable mountain biking!




  2. #2
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    I'm not buying that that entire rig will stand by itself. I think it would flip over if the rider dismounted.

    E-cargo bikes are super cool, though. A friend of mine has one from Felt and does all her Mom's shopping with it.

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  3. #3
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    Lot's of people are passionate about e-bikes...some even in a positive way.

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    That seems sad. Why not just ride your bike to the trailhead? I do all the time. Maybe a long distance? Innovative, I guess.

  5. #5
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    Personally, I don't ride any bike to or from work, because I would be a sweaty mess by the time I got there, haha. But I would imagine I would be far less nasty if I was ebiking it. And bonus- I'd have more fun than driving! You want to talk about sad- Driving to work is sad. So boring...

  6. #6
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    OMFG

    ebike doesn't belong in PASSION is belongs in the trash

    OH MY GOD this sucks

    it belongs in ebike forum for craps sake
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  7. #7
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    Well, at least you're passionate about it!

  8. #8
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    ^ lol
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    Isn't he worried about his expensive commuter cargo e-bike getting "hijacked" at the trailhead?
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    some weird crazed desert dweller.

  10. #10
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    I inquired about something along these lines a while back. It was actually about using the same bike and defeating the eBike-ness when you get to the trail.

    I have a 30 mile round-trip commute to ride a 6 mile trail network. Commuting by MTB doesn't make sense to me these days. Plus I don't have time to knock off a 30 mile bike ride to ride an hour on my MTB. An eBike would make that more feasible... but not necessarily more practical. For one, it probably costs more than the car I drive. Two, I'd never be able to do my shopping for a family of 5 with it. Three, it rains and snows where I live, the number of days to use it to commute somewhere are somewhat limited (my car keeps me dry and warm). Four, I have 3 kids; I don't see pulling them or them tolerating going to Grandma's house in a bicycle trailer and making a 10 min drive 30 min. Five, I don't see the use in eBike commuting in a city that doesn't have good bike lane infrastructure because I'd rather not be smooshed by a texting driver.

    Yeah, I like bikes. And I can see this commuter/towing thing working for a few people. But really I'd much rather see the large portion of our commuting infrastructure i.e. cars, busses, trains make a turn to the positive and keep bikes for pedaling pleasure.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  11. #11
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    All good points! I definitely wouldnít want to ride a bike to work in winter. Iíve heard itís a popular thing to do in Minneapolis, and Iím like- why?! But in less harsh locales, it could work. Portland seemed to be the most bike friendly place Iíve been to. Itís even integrated into their public transit.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
    I inquired about something along these lines a while back. It was actually about using the same bike and defeating the eBike-ness when you get to the trail.

    I have a 30 mile round-trip commute to ride a 6 mile trail network. Commuting by MTB doesn't make sense to me these days. Plus I don't have time to knock off a 30 mile bike ride to ride an hour on my MTB. An eBike would make that more feasible... but not necessarily more practical. For one, it probably costs more than the car I drive. Two, I'd never be able to do my shopping for a family of 5 with it. Three, it rains and snows where I live, the number of days to use it to commute somewhere are somewhat limited (my car keeps me dry and warm). Four, I have 3 kids; I don't see pulling them or them tolerating going to Grandma's house in a bicycle trailer and making a 10 min drive 30 min. Five, I don't see the use in eBike commuting in a city that doesn't have good bike lane infrastructure because I'd rather not be smooshed by a texting driver.

    Yeah, I like bikes. And I can see this commuter/towing thing working for a few people. But really I'd much rather see the large portion of our commuting infrastructure i.e. cars, busses, trains make a turn to the positive and keep bikes for pedaling pleasure.

    There is a trailhead a few miles away from my home, up about a 500 foot paved road, that's 8 min by car and around 35 min by bike, 1/2 of that time due to the climb. If you figure in a few minutes to get the bike out of the car and ready to ride, let's say 12 min by car. If I have an e-mountain bike, that bike time gets cut in half to maybe 16-18 min. So I can e-bike there almost as fast as drive there, and no car to park, no parking space to deal with, just lift the bike over the motorcycle bar and I'm on the trail. On other trails I have to ride several miles before I even get to the hill I want to ride on. An e-mountain bike can halve that fire/gravel road time to get to the good stuff. Need to pickup some milk or bread at the store 4 miles away? Just get on your e-bike with a rear rack for the grocery bag. They are very, very versatile.
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    Iím just over here chuckling to myself...

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  14. #14
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    nice advertisment to try and swing people around, I dont buy it though.
    always mad and usually drunk......

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    moped passion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
    I inquired about something along these lines a while back. It was actually about using the same bike and defeating the eBike-ness when you get to the trail.

    I have a 30 mile round-trip commute to ride a 6 mile trail network. Commuting by MTB doesn't make sense to me these days. Plus I don't have time to knock off a 30 mile bike ride to ride an hour on my MTB. An eBike would make that more feasible... but not necessarily more practical. For one, it probably costs more than the car I drive. Two, I'd never be able to do my shopping for a family of 5 with it. Three, it rains and snows where I live, the number of days to use it to commute somewhere are somewhat limited (my car keeps me dry and warm). Four, I have 3 kids; I don't see pulling them or them tolerating going to Grandma's house in a bicycle trailer and making a 10 min drive 30 min. Five, I don't see the use in eBike commuting in a city that doesn't have good bike lane infrastructure because I'd rather not be smooshed by a texting driver.

    Yeah, I like bikes. And I can see this commuter/towing thing working for a few people. But really I'd much rather see the large portion of our commuting infrastructure i.e. cars, busses, trains make a turn to the positive and keep bikes for pedaling pleasure.
    Bike and e bikes make great commuter tools.You'd rather see more busses and cars than bikes? Yikes. MA rider here. 17 miles one way commute by bike, 2-6 trips per week, year round. About 2,000 miles per year. Takes an hour by car, 20 minutes or so longer by bike. Seems like a no brainer. Add a showers pass jacket, studded tires and a big cup of HTFU for the year round stuff. Boston and the surrounding 'burbs have seen HUGE numbers of bike commutes increase, add in bike lanes and bike shares, win/win.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
    I inquired about something along these lines a while back. It was actually about using the same bike and defeating the eBike-ness when you get to the trail.

    I have a 30 mile round-trip commute to ride a 6 mile trail network. Commuting by MTB doesn't make sense to me these days. Plus I don't have time to knock off a 30 mile bike ride to ride an hour on my MTB. An eBike would make that more feasible... but not necessarily more practical. For one, it probably costs more than the car I drive. Two, I'd never be able to do my shopping for a family of 5 with it. Three, it rains and snows where I live, the number of days to use it to commute somewhere are somewhat limited (my car keeps me dry and warm). Four, I have 3 kids; I don't see pulling them or them tolerating going to Grandma's house in a bicycle trailer and making a 10 min drive 30 min. Five, I don't see the use in eBike commuting in a city that doesn't have good bike lane infrastructure because I'd rather not be smooshed by a texting driver.

    Yeah, I like bikes. And I can see this commuter/towing thing working for a few people. But really I'd much rather see the large portion of our commuting infrastructure i.e. cars, busses, trains make a turn to the positive and keep bikes for pedaling pleasure.
    Are there not shops along the way back? What's keeping you from carrying 10 lbs back each time? Can carry it on your back (I have a small carabiner clip on the hanging loop) and on the bike if you get proper cargo carrying add-ons. Having a bike makes it convenient to stop at any store, supporting small businesses that might not have the best locations.

    Home Depot has rental trucks for anything too heavy and bulky for a bike. They're super affordable to rent for a day.

    I've been car-less for years. I insist on biking instead of carpooling. Cleaning up away from home takes nothing more than a terry washcloth and water. The scrubbing action of a terry cloth arguably cleans better than soapy lather and rinse.

    The 1 hr to and from trails is just something you need to accept as normal. Get yourself some good lights while you're at it. I've been eyeing the combo from Outbound lightning. Ebike not necessary, but if that's what it takes to give up the excuses... I'd still keep a backup bike around.

    Here's my ride log:

    E-bike Passion?-ypfk65i.png
    - I sometimes forget to turn on GPS... xD

    My area doesn't have extensive bike lanes and cops don't care if I ride on the sidewalks. Hardly anyone else using 'em. Is the chance of texting drivers hitting you on the bike really going to be any higher than then hitting you while you're in a car? Your senses are sharper on a bike, with more in your field of view and more to hear. It's surprisingly easy to alter your field of view to check behind, if you're already leaning forward--just rotate your neck to its side, pointing your chin back and just sort of glance toward your chin. I just treat every driver as being a complete dumbass and that keeps me safe from all except the d*ckheads. xD

  18. #18
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    Too many hateful responses to quote. All missed my point: An eBike hauler doesn't work for my lifestyle in a number of ways.

    I never said I wanted more cars and buses. I simply stated I'd rather see our technology development in more practical areas like cars, buses and trains, because they are by far the biggest issues in terms of the transportation sector in terms of reducing congestion and pollution. If you think you are going to sell a good portion of America, especially rural or suburban America on the idea that they are going to give up cars and get eBike haulers, then please continue to live in your delusion.

    If you want to ride a bike everywhere, have at it. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I don't choose your very insular lifestyle. That's just ignorant. I'm just giving the reasons why I won't be investing in eBikes for commuting, hauling or else.

    Also, I'd like to know how many of you have triplet toddlers and tell me about how you will cart them around on a bike and do the shopping... LMAO! Obviously people make a lot of assumptions that they know nothing about.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  19. #19
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    A bit of a judgmental and narrow minded response. There's a solution for all your excuses. Don't rely on others to advance things in the direction you want to see. You seem too fixated on seeing bikes as a toy.

    What's keeping you from acquiring trailers to meet your needs?

  20. #20
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    Why are they excuses?

    Everything can be solved. No one needs a bike. Period. No one needs any of the crap we have in modern society, but because I choose a different path, I'm judgmental and narrow-minded? I thought the exact same of your response.

    Are you saving the world by riding your bike? If so, good. I worked in the automotive industry trying to "save the world." Good luck with that. Most people wouldn't even bat an eye at your "solutions." The fact that I even thought through how an electric bicycle might fit in my life shows a lot more than what most people give. And this wasn't the first time. The fact is, for me, it isn't practical or economical, so I won't be investing. If I was a single 20-something living in a urban environment where the weather was stable, I might think different, but again, that's a pretty idealistic scenario.

    My bikes are toys. Plain and simple. Why would one ridicule anyone for that? It's the norm around here.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Are there not shops along the way back? What's keeping you from carrying 10 lbs back each time? Can carry it on your back (I have a small carabiner clip on the hanging loop) and on the bike if you get proper cargo carrying add-ons. Having a bike makes it convenient to stop at any store, supporting small businesses that might not have the best locations.

    Home Depot has rental trucks for anything too heavy and bulky for a bike. They're super affordable to rent for a day.

    I've been car-less for years. I insist on biking instead of carpooling. Cleaning up away from home takes nothing more than a terry washcloth and water. The scrubbing action of a terry cloth arguably cleans better than soapy lather and rinse.

    The 1 hr to and from trails is just something you need to accept as normal. Get yourself some good lights while you're at it. I've been eyeing the combo from Outbound lightning. Ebike not necessary, but if that's what it takes to give up the excuses... I'd still keep a backup bike around.

    Here's my ride log:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	YPFk65I.png 
Views:	47 
Size:	49.0 KB 
ID:	1211817
    - I sometimes forget to turn on GPS... xD

    My area doesn't have extensive bike lanes and cops don't care if I ride on the sidewalks. Hardly anyone else using 'em. Is the chance of texting drivers hitting you on the bike really going to be any higher than then hitting you while you're in a car? Your senses are sharper on a bike, with more in your field of view and more to hear. It's surprisingly easy to alter your field of view to check behind, if you're already leaning forward--just rotate your neck to its side, pointing your chin back and just sort of glance toward your chin. I just treat every driver as being a complete dumbass and that keeps me safe from all except the d*ckheads. xD
    neg rep comment from ninjichor:
    Too narrow minded to see own narrow mindedness. Giving excuses for excuses. Being judgmental about judgments. Missing the point of the the thread, hijacking it to speak about self. Pessimistically generalize about people being incapable beings.
    Hijacking to speak about oneself? I'm not the one sharing my ride logs to prove some ridiculous point, then negative repping someone because I was butthurt.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  22. #22
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    Well, can tell that replying to l'oiseau is only going to lead this thread more off-topic, based on how they're doubling up on being judgmental and piling on excuses, using them as walls. Thread's about what again? Ebike passion, and not how l'oiseau lacks passion and their claim that the general population lacks even more passion for ebikes than them? Seems kind of insulting, or arrogant to consider yourself to be better than so many... neg repping and moving on.

    Took a look at some cargo ebikes, but didn't find anything appealing. 88cm/34" width would struggle to fit through doors. This thing costs 2k:

    Name:  UIpzPtf.png
Views: 809
Size:  328.2 KB

    I'm liking the modular add-on style of solutions, like this trailer:

    E-bike Passion?-electric-powered-bike-trailer.jpg

    Oversized seatpack:
    E-bike Passion?-1akmgy8.png

    Think the first thing I'd do with an ebike is maybe run tires with real traction and durable casing, rather than some compromise that has decently low weight and rolling resistance. Then I'd consider a tire insert to prevent flats. Maybe consider adding some other things on that are considered excess weight or just "uncool", like reflectors in my wheels and maybe a kick stand. I'll stop window-shopping carbon stuff too.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'oiseau View Post
    Too many hateful responses to quote. All missed my point: An eBike hauler doesn't work for my lifestyle in a number of ways.

    I never said I wanted more cars and buses. I simply stated I'd rather see our technology development in more practical areas like cars, buses and trains, because they are by far the biggest issues in terms of the transportation sector in terms of reducing congestion and pollution. If you think you are going to sell a good portion of America, especially rural or suburban America on the idea that they are going to give up cars and get eBike haulers, then please continue to live in your delusion.

    If you want to ride a bike everywhere, have at it. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I don't choose your very insular lifestyle. That's just ignorant. I'm just giving the reasons why I won't be investing in eBikes for commuting, hauling or else.

    Also, I'd like to know how many of you have triplet toddlers and tell me about how you will cart them around on a bike and do the shopping... LMAO! Obviously people make a lot of assumptions that they know nothing about.
    Ok , so an e bike doesn't work for you. Cars, busses and trains? Maybe trains, but for many in an urban area, bikes and e bikes are a great solution to congestion, short trips and non polluting. My fuel is my breakfast. Cheers. Or in my case, cheerios (with banana)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Ok , so an e bike doesn't work for you. Cars, busses and trains? Maybe trains, but for many in an urban area, bikes and e bikes are a great solution to congestion, short trips and non polluting. My fuel is my breakfast. Cheers. Or in my case, cheerios (with banana)
    For me, if I was in that situation and they truly were short trips, a regular commuter bike would be much better. The added cost and complexity of the eBike aren't something I see necessary to ride around in the city.

    I've been to Boston, and the public transport was great there. I wouldn't even want a car. A bike and the subway and bus system would be all I needed unless I was leaving town. That's the dilemma I know a lot of urban people have. They want a car for that kind of stuff but it's a pain and costly to store it. I don't think an eBike solves this either.
    Life is too short to ride a bike you don't love.

  25. #25
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    I hope ebikes will get people out of their cars. But things don't always work as people think they will.

    One promise of ride-hailing companies like Uber and Lyft was fewer cars clogging city streets. But studies suggest the opposite: that ride-hailing companies are pulling riders off buses, subways, bicycles and their own feet and putting them in cars instead.

    uber-lyft-drivers-are-making-city-traffic-worse-studies-find
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    I'm highly skeptical of anything being a magic bullet besides good education/training/upbringing. I doubt ebikes will get any significant number of people out of cars.

    The things we use, such as cars, bikes, guns, knives, forums, or anything else, are only as useful as how we make them out to be. With a bit of training, such as on resourceful operation and etiquette (for use in shared/public spaces), the tools can be used in a more responsible manner in society.

    Without such training, it's hard to punish users for irresponsible use, so the blame tends to pass on to the tools, or the system. Can blame the system for not organizing their governed area so that there's a proper space for the userbase to "belong", based on the idea that everything has its place, and there's a place for everything. For example, if there's no bike lanes, bikes tend to use whatever space they can get. Systems can get kind of complicated with so many different user groups sharing the same area side-by-side, with groups sometimes not being familiar with how the others operate. For example: one way trails are a way to deal with traffic issues on narrow paths. Kind of straight-forward on how to use the trails if bikes are the only users, but what if hikers decide to go against the flow of traffic on them, citing that it's safer to be able to see oncoming traffic? Still lots of other questions to be asked. Don't need to educate formally in classrooms, can just put up posters with the info, presentable in a digestible manner. Rather than try and enforce rules/etiquette that not everyone's familiar with, offer a system to guide users to show first hand how the area is managed.

    The only ones I see buying ebikes in significant #s are people who were raised with bikes, especially those that treated bikes as important/memorable parts of their childhood for transportation and adventure, who are currently active in areas that seem bike friendly enough, and have the money and space to own one. The industry seems to be on a good path, producing simple high quality offerings. Just need to show how these offerings create value in prospective users' lifestyles to make it worth the expense, and they'll eventually get adopted. Once knowledge of them spreads, then it'll possibly spread like it did in the EU.

    Before you can hope for ebikes to do anything, you should hope that the system gives them space to belong first. Things aren't looking too good in the US; it's one of the main barriers holding me back from getting one. I'm already sold on their potential value.

  27. #27
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    I power cycles and I am powered by tacos. So what kind of bike am I... a Salsa?

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  28. #28
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    Call them what you want.. e-bike or assistive bike... bike or bicycle should not be in its name. Why not call it a mobility device?

    Bicycle: (noun) a vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, "propelled by pedals by a human and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel."

    The speed and reckless abandon I have seen out of current e users presents a clear and present danger on city and rural trails. Especially those trails and areas that have been hard caught and advocated for. Wait for the hop up kits to start popping up on the web. Since the dawn of motors, mankind has wanted to go faster and race. My safe trails i am on with my family have now greater risk because they are considered bicycles In the current scheme e are motorized vehicles. In my opinion, it looses the right to the term bike or bicycle when it gets a battery and a motor weather assistive or direct drive.

    Racers found with assistive geared motors are banned, as it cheats the fundamentals of racing a bicycle. Cycling is unassisted human power. Why should I consider an e a bicycle, I shouldn't. The point of cycling is to get healthy and fit and see the world with a different view. If a person needs help to make a ride, get fit and exercise then get on a bike. Don't get on a ride over your abilities and get in a bad spot. Is the new Harley Davidson LiveWire an e or a motorcycle? How much in theory is different between the two? Did not motorcycles start out as bicycles with small motors on them? Look where motorcycles are now, turn signals, registration, testing licensing and the such limited to strats and highways. The above is my opinion, take it or leave it, under my constitutional and cycling rights. I have pedaled a bike for 40+ years and I am a bicyclist.

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Are there not shops along the way back? What's keeping you from carrying 10 lbs back each time? Can carry it on your back (I have a small carabiner clip on the hanging loop) and on the bike if you get proper cargo carrying add-ons. Having a bike makes it convenient to stop at any store, supporting small businesses that might not have the best locations.

    Home Depot has rental trucks for anything too heavy and bulky for a bike. They're super affordable to rent for a day.

    I've been car-less for years. I insist on biking instead of carpooling. Cleaning up away from home takes nothing more than a terry washcloth and water. The scrubbing action of a terry cloth arguably cleans better than soapy lather and rinse.

    The 1 hr to and from trails is just something you need to accept as normal. Get yourself some good lights while you're at it. I've been eyeing the combo from Outbound lightning. Ebike not necessary, but if that's what it takes to give up the excuses... I'd still keep a backup bike around.

    Here's my ride log:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	YPFk65I.png 
Views:	47 
Size:	49.0 KB 
ID:	1211817
    - I sometimes forget to turn on GPS... xD

    My area doesn't have extensive bike lanes and cops don't care if I ride on the sidewalks. Hardly anyone else using 'em. Is the chance of texting drivers hitting you on the bike really going to be any higher than then hitting you while you're in a car? Your senses are sharper on a bike, with more in your field of view and more to hear. It's surprisingly easy to alter your field of view to check behind, if you're already leaning forward--just rotate your neck to its side, pointing your chin back and just sort of glance toward your chin. I just treat every driver as being a complete dumbass and that keeps me safe from all except the d*ckheads. xD

    Meh..I had stats like that as well, except mine was on my SS and my miles were in the dirt, and my elevation gain was about 2-3x as much.
    Bicycles donít have motors or batteries.

    Ebikes are not bicycles

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbikej View Post
    Meh..I had stats like that as well, except mine was on my SS and my miles were in the dirt, and my elevation gain was about 2-3x as much.
    Just FYI, you're *the one* who inspired me to pick up such habits. I first tried it on my singlespeed* too! I happened to make a good friend too, who was a mtber with a rack on his SUV that offered to drive me back once, as I was hiking my bike back home due to a mechanical issue. The way he gushed about the respect of me trying it helped to reinforce the habit. Just implying that the excuses are a mental block, rather than a physical one, offering evidence through personal experience.

    Didn't you use to have a pic of "Wacko" (animaniacs) as your avatar at one time, or was that only on that other forum?

    * ditched the singlespeed because I meet up with other riders and singlespeed bikes tend to work best when they can dictate their own pace (efficient cadence).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Just FYI, you're *the one* who inspired me to pick up such habits. I first tried it on my singlespeed* too! I happened to make a good friend too, who was a mtber with a rack on his SUV that offered to drive me back once, as I was hiking my bike back home due to a mechanical issue. The way he gushed about the respect of me trying it helped to reinforce the habit. Just implying that the excuses are a mental block, rather than a physical one, offering evidence through personal experience.

    Didn't you use to have a pic of "Wacko" (animaniacs) as your avatar at one time, or was that only on that other forum?

    * ditched the singlespeed because I meet up with other riders and singlespeed bikes tend to work best when they can dictate their own pace (efficient cadence).
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirEddardStark View Post
    Call them what you want.. e-bike or assistive bike... bike or bicycle should not be in its name. Why not call it a mobility device?

    Bicycle: (noun) a vehicle composed of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, "propelled by pedals by a human and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel."

    The speed and reckless abandon I have seen out of current e users presents a clear and present danger on city and rural trails. Especially those trails and areas that have been hard caught and advocated for. Wait for the hop up kits to start popping up on the web. Since the dawn of motors, mankind has wanted to go faster and race. My safe trails i am on with my family have now greater risk because they are considered bicycles In the current scheme e are motorized vehicles. In my opinion, it looses the right to the term bike or bicycle when it gets a battery and a motor weather assistive or direct drive.

    Racers found with assistive geared motors are banned, as it cheats the fundamentals of racing a bicycle. Cycling is unassisted human power. Why should I consider an e a bicycle, I shouldn't. The point of cycling is to get healthy and fit and see the world with a different view. If a person needs help to make a ride, get fit and exercise then get on a bike. Don't get on a ride over your abilities and get in a bad spot. Is the new Harley Davidson LiveWire an e or a motorcycle? How much in theory is different between the two? Did not motorcycles start out as bicycles with small motors on them? Look where motorcycles are now, turn signals, registration, testing licensing and the such limited to strats and highways. The above is my opinion, take it or leave it, under my constitutional and cycling rights. I have pedaled a bike for 40+ years and I am a bicyclist.

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    Not East Coast....

    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    East coast, am I right?
    I am not from the East Coast....

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    I had to toss a few bombs lately over in the E-bike forums just for fun, but now "they" are starting to infest the passion forum.

    I wonder what this web site will look like in the next few years as E-bikes (errrrr motorcycles) start to take over?? Advertising dollars rule.

    I came here initially for it's mountain bike emphasis not it's motorcycle emphasis.

    I am in favor of electric motorcycles if they replace a car or motor vehicle but not for mountain biking. "E-bikes" are the gateway drug to more powerful motorcycles and eventually they will lose any pedal assist. What happened to mopeds? They eventually were replaced by Harleys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    I had to toss a few bombs lately over in the E-bike forums just for fun, but now "they" are starting to infest the passion forum.

    I wonder what this web site will look like in the next few years as E-bikes (errrrr motorcycles) start to take over?? Advertising dollars rule.

    I came here initially for it's mountain bike emphasis not it's motorcycle emphasis.

    I am in favor of electric motorcycles if they replace a car or motor vehicle but not for mountain biking. "E-bikes" are the gateway drug to more powerful motorcycles and eventually they will lose any pedal assist. What happened to mopeds? They eventually were replaced by Harleys!
    What happened to mopeds? They gained batteries, electric motors and were rebranded as "ebikes". Somewhere along the way, the word "moped" became an undesirable term with bad connotations, possibly because of that one joke and that they were more considered very weak motorbikes rather than the "assisted bike" that the manufacturers now market with. It's difficult to market with "weak" as a feature but the idea of a little assistance to make it easier to ramp up the fun can be a big selling point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

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    Lots of people take their car to get to the playground ,so a 4 wheeled motorized vehicle or a 2 wheeled motorized vehicle ....... whatever.

    In the video , you can clearly see a sign " No motorized vehicle allowed" but the guy still went there......
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  38. #38
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    Ebikes for mtb? HELL NO
    Ebikes for utility/commuting? HELL YES

    This is an example of the the latter. All good in my book.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    There is a trailhead a few miles away from my home, up about a 500 foot paved road, that's 8 min by car and around 35 min by bike, 1/2 of that time due to the climb. If you figure in a few minutes to get the bike out of the car and ready to ride, let's say 12 min by car. If I have an e-mountain bike, that bike time gets cut in half to maybe 16-18 min. So I can e-bike there almost as fast as drive there, and no car to park, no parking space to deal with, just lift the bike over the motorcycle bar and I'm on the trail. On other trails I have to ride several miles before I even get to the hill I want to ride on. An e-mountain bike can halve that fire/gravel road time to get to the good stuff. Need to pickup some milk or bread at the store 4 miles away? Just get on your e-bike with a rear rack for the grocery bag. They are very, very versatile.
    Yeah....but then you're motor-biking, not mountain biking. I used to ride my full-suspension bike eight miles to a local trail, ride 15 miles of single-track, and ride back. If I didn't have enough time for the 16-mile road ride there I'd drive.

    Mountain biking is a recreational activity. There is nothing wrong with driving to a trail to do it any more than driving for any other recreational activity. Everybody is very grave about "saving the planet" and other virtue signaling of the First World but I don't really care about that crap in regard to cycling.

    Saving time is not the same thing as mountain biking. And there is no "good stuff" if you use a motor. It's all "good stuff" to a cyclist. Hills, roads, cliffs, mud, whatever. "Riding to the hill you want to ride on" is not a chore. I ride a trail near my house that is a series of interesting hills and descents interspersed with some relatively smooth and uninteresting sections. At no time have I ever wished for a motor or some kind of auto-pilot to decrease my boredom about being on a bike.

    You are not "biking" to the trailhead. You are motor-biking. Not the same thing.

  40. #40
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    This cartoon captures things perfectly!


    https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/478507529135288354
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage of the Sage View Post
    Iím just over here chuckling to myself...

    Thereís no such thing as bad weather for riding, only improper clothing...
    Yeah, I used to say that too, until I got caught out on a night ride in an ice storm with 30" diameter/100+ft tall fir trees dropping to the ground, and having to dive out from under a huge tree limb the diameter of my quad that came crashing down right above me.

    I now put ice storms and wind storms in the category of bad weather that no amount of clothing will help with.
    No dig no whine

  42. #42
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    Just like in poltergeist, ďweíre here..Ē Ebike passion - hell yeah, all the time.
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    What happened to mopeds? They gained batteries, electric motors and were rebranded as "ebikes". Somewhere along the way, the word "moped" became an undesirable term with bad connotations, possibly because of that one joke and that they were more considered very weak motorbikes rather than the "assisted bike" that the manufacturers now market with. It's difficult to market with "weak" as a feature but the idea of a little assistance to make it easier to ramp up the fun can be a big selling point.

    What happened to mopeds is that they fell into a huge spectrum between large-displacement motorcycles and e-bikes. There are so many different kinds of two, three, and four-wheeled bikes and ATV's, both gas and electric-powered, a moped is just one of them. There are still mopeds that are gas powered, I saw some Italian ones a while ago. Mopeds are not a joke, they can take someone from point A to point B in a heavy urban environment where parking is at a premium. They are much lighter than motorcycles and they, if they still have pedals, don't pedal like e-bikes, so they remain their own class of vehicle.

    Most of them do not have pedals anymore so they are NOT classed as e-bikes, or any bike, period. They are also much heavier than the average e-bike, looks online to be around 200-250 lbs on average. Even a heavy lead-acid battery e-bike is only around 110 lbs. The average E-bike is close to 50 lbs. No comparison. You can't say that 225 lb mopeds without pedals, that weigh as much as some lighter 150cc motorcycles, 'evolved' into 50 lb e-bikes with pedals. But I give you credit for your overactive imagination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Yeah....but then you're motor-biking, not mountain biking. I used to ride my full-suspension bike eight miles to a local trail, ride 15 miles of single-track, and ride back. If I didn't have enough time for the 16-mile road ride there I'd drive.

    Mountain biking is a recreational activity. There is nothing wrong with driving to a trail to do it any more than driving for any other recreational activity. Everybody is very grave about "saving the planet" and other virtue signaling of the First World but I don't really care about that crap in regard to cycling.

    Saving time is not the same thing as mountain biking. And there is no "good stuff" if you use a motor. It's all "good stuff" to a cyclist. Hills, roads, cliffs, mud, whatever. "Riding to the hill you want to ride on" is not a chore. I ride a trail near my house that is a series of interesting hills and descents interspersed with some relatively smooth and uninteresting sections. At no time have I ever wished for a motor or some kind of auto-pilot to decrease my boredom about being on a bike.

    You are not "biking" to the trailhead. You are motor-biking. Not the same thing.

    You assume that all e-bike users just hit the throttle 100% of the time, all the time, and don't pedal. I pedal, all the time, unless I'm coasting downhill and I would not pedal on a normal bike at that time anyway. Motor biking is sitting back and using the throttle. E-biking is using pedal assist while pedaling. That is biking with electric power assist. Your example is like saying a car that has power steering doesn't steer. Like a steering wheel with power assist is not a steering wheel anymore. You still steer the car, with power assist. I hope that is not a difficult concept to understand.

    As far as the 'good stuff' is concerned, maybe people should actually ride an e-bike on dirt before they come up with conclusions about what is fun on an e-bike and what is not. I don't think riding on gravel is fun, but others do and to each their own. You act like all of the people here that own e-bikes have never ridden a mountain bike, don't own one, and do not know the difference in experience between the two bikes. It's a bit presumptuous. There are people on here who have been riding for decades, and then they bought an e-bike as one of their many bikes. They are the cyclists that you describe above. They embody cycling a lot more than you or I do. Are you suggesting they bought an e-bike specifically because they didn't want to ride on any of the 'good stuff'?
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

  45. #45
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    Why were mopeds first introduced? And why were they 49cc?
    I brake for stinkbugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    What happened to mopeds is that they fell into a huge spectrum between large-displacement motorcycles and e-bikes. There are so many different kinds of two, three, and four-wheeled bikes and ATV's, both gas and electric-powered, a moped is just one of them. There are still mopeds that are gas powered, I saw some Italian ones a while ago. Mopeds are not a joke, they can take someone from point A to point B in a heavy urban environment where parking is at a premium. They are much lighter than motorcycles and they, if they still have pedals, don't pedal like e-bikes, so they remain their own class of vehicle.

    Most of them do not have pedals anymore so they are NOT classed as e-bikes, or any bike, period. They are also much heavier than the average e-bike, looks online to be around 200-250 lbs on average. Even a heavy lead-acid battery e-bike is only around 110 lbs. The average E-bike is close to 50 lbs. No comparison. You can't say that 225 lb mopeds without pedals, that weigh as much as some lighter 150cc motorcycles, 'evolved' into 50 lb e-bikes with pedals. But I give you credit for your overactive imagination.
    I guess you don't understand the meaning of "evolved". Look at the first automobiles and then look at today's. Automobiles evolved, just like mopeds.

    I had a friend with a moped back in the '80s. It was nowhere near 225 lbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    E-biking is using pedal assist while pedaling. That is biking with electric power assist.
    That's one form of ebiking. I see people using throttle only on ebikes more than I see them pedaling. Both are legal and legit forms of ebiking.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Why were mopeds first introduced? And why were they 49cc?
    I believe down south they were designed for DUIís so they could still get around on their liquorcicle. No way it would fly in the north.
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I believe down south they were designed for DUIís so they could still get around on their liquorcicle. No way it would fly in the north.


    Yeah that was one untapped market for sure.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  50. #50
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    My legs make it move so its a bicycle
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sml-2727 View Post
    My legs make it move so its a bicycle
    Yeah, but the battery makes it an E-bike.

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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sml-2727 View Post
    My legs make it move so its a bicycle


    One of my legs makes my car move.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  53. #53
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    Electronic bicycle AKA ebike. Itís what they will forever be known for. Anyoneís definition doesnít matter.
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    One of my legs makes my car move.
    Both of Fred Flintstones legs make his move. It's only got two wheels, but I'm pretty sure it's still a car.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Both of Fred Flintstones legs make his move. It's only got two wheels, but I'm pretty sure it's still a car.
    Does this count as satire? Because I'm laughing at this, as it makes fun of the problem of people conveniently sticking to simple logical analogies. It's as if things aren't always logical!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Does this count as satire? Because I'm laughing at this, as it makes fun of the problem of people conveniently sticking to simple logical analogies. It's as if things aren't always logical!
    Making fun of all sides. Only on the internet do people actually believe that turning on and controlling the motor with your legs makes a difference, and is somehow more pure than a throttle. Only on the internet do people think that is worth arguing over.

  57. #57
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    Itís not more pure, just saves your wrist for 12oz curls later.
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

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    The sound track to the ebike video reminded me of the sound track to this MUCH BETTER video:
    https://youtu.be/1-VCWUtNm-4

    Not the same song, but the harmonized vocals at the chorus and the bass line sound identical.

  59. #59
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    Ebikes are certainly gaining steam, but I'm still not a fan; not that it matters.

    I did take satisfaction passing an e-biker going uphill the other day on a long ride.
    The only important thing these days, is rhythm and melody. Rhythm...and melody.

  60. #60
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    No good

    I am not in favor of e-bikes for variety of rational and irrational reasons. Fundamentally, if a trail-paved or single track- bans motorized traffic, then no e-bikes.

    Encounters with e-bikes in the past 30 days:
    1. Finishing an after work ride last week. Nice 18 mi loop. Technical and flowing trail. Temp in the mid '90's. Humid. Riding a flat section of gravel path that connects singletrack to the TH. About 2 mi out. The vegetation in this area is over waist high. Out of nowhere comes an e-bike recumbent. I was riding about 10-11mph. The e-bike 20+ mph. The motor makes zero noise. The recumbent had a no flag and was not visible due to the foliage. Really came close to a bad collision. The trail said no motorized vehicles. The rider definitely knew better and was breaking the rules "just because". Very dangerous to the e-biker and all other users.

    2. Little old lady. About 3 weeks ago, this little old lady comes cruising towards me. Fast. Probably 25+ mph. I'm heading east, she's heading west. We both criss cross on a wide bridge. At which point she about loses control; the bridge was wet. She was driving a Townie e-bike. Great that she's out riding. Great that she's spent $$$ on a new bike. Bad that she's putting herself and other trail users at risk.

    3. Increased weight, rider not used to the power. This particular story doesn't end well. Occurred in the last month as well. Experienced rider takes an e-bike (dualie) to the local park. Hits his favorite DH. Ends up endo'ing. Broken wrist, collarbone, several broken ribs, collapsed lung, lacerated liver...the LBS manager told me about this one while showing me the rider's e-bike (which was trashed).

    Ebikes for commuting, OK. But they need to follow the rules for all motorized vehicles. No rolling/running stops. Ride with traffic. Etc.

    Ebikes with pedal assist for those with health conditions. I am really empathetic here. Especially if you have a bad heart, want to get the exercise, and love cycling. This is probably my only grey area of opinion on ebikes.

    Regardless, an e-bike should not put other trail users at risk. E-bikes should not be an impediment to automobile traffic.

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    Not that anyone gives a shit but this is why I am saying goodbye to MTBR.com

    I came here initially for the mountain bike stoke not the moped stoke.

    Is this a mountain bike site or a moped site? It really can't be both. Either you get by on your own power or you are riding a moped.

    They even separated it from road biking quite some time ago but it seems like they are embracing mopeds probably because money talks.
    My brain went from "you probably shouldn't say that" to WTF!

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf View Post
    Not that anyone gives a shit but this is why I am saying goodbye to MTBR.com

    I came here initially for the mountain bike stoke not the moped stoke.

    Is this a mountain bike site or a moped site? It really can't be both. Either you get by on your own power or you are riding a moped.

    They even separated it from road biking quite some time ago but it seems like they are embracing mopeds probably because money talks.
    Realistically, thatís not very fair. Thereís like 130 forums? and ebikes are 1. If you leave they will have lost 1. With the ebike forum, theyíve gained many. Nobody likes change, but why not just ride your bike and be happy? Thereís much worse things out there.

    Or, if you canít live with this one forum, then donít let the door hit you in the rear.
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Realistically, thatís not very fair. Thereís like 130 forums? and ebikes are 1. If you leave they will have lost 1. With the ebike forum, theyíve gained many. Nobody likes change, but why not just ride your bike and be happy? Thereís much worse things out there.

    Or, if you canít live with this one forum, then donít let the door hit you in the rear.

    Another narcissist bites the dust.
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Making fun of all sides. Only on the internet do people actually believe that turning on and controlling the motor with your legs makes a difference, and is somehow more pure than a throttle. Only on the internet do people think that is worth arguing over.

    Um...I have no e-power without pedaling. So it does make a difference. If I'm on the throttle and stop pedaling, even with no resistance, the throttle cuts out. Maybe the LBS wired it that way on purpose to make it a strict class 1 in California, I don't know. And you don't control the motor with your legs, you control it with a push-button for wattage levels. If you are in level 0, you pedal with zero e-power. You know that!

    Purity is a perfectionistic, black and white term. Black and white thinkers do not want to think about relative shades of gray in a particular topic, so they label something one way or another, choose their side, and think they are done with the intellectual effort, when in fact they never even started with any objective analysis in the first place.

    The whole reason class 1 exists is BECAUSE you pedal with e-power. Are you saying that the legislators and e-bike advocates all made up class 1 out of thin air, and it's just some dumb academic thing to argue about, like how many atoms fit on the head of a pin? It is by far the most important thing keeping e-bikes on a different level than e-motorcycles, e-scooters, etc. You pedal, with assist. If it's state/federal law that class 2/3/4 e-bikes are more restricted than class 1 in certain areas, that's not just on the internet. It's on a real paper document filed away in the county/state/federal office after ratification. It has real power to enforce laws.
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Um...I have no e-power without pedaling. So it does make a difference. If I'm on the throttle and stop pedaling, even with no resistance, the throttle cuts out. Maybe the LBS wired it that way on purpose to make it a strict class 1 in California, I don't know. And you don't control the motor with your legs, you control it with a push-button for wattage levels. If you are in level 0, you pedal with zero e-power. You know that!

    Purity is a perfectionistic, black and white term. Black and white thinkers do not want to think about relative shades of gray in a particular topic, so they label something one way or another, choose their side, and think they are done with the intellectual effort, when in fact they never even started with any objective analysis in the first place.

    The whole reason class 1 exists is BECAUSE you pedal with e-power. Are you saying that the legislators and e-bike advocates all made up class 1 out of thin air, and it's just some dumb academic thing to argue about, like how many atoms fit on the head of a pin? It is by far the most important thing keeping e-bikes on a different level than e-motorcycles, e-scooters, etc. You pedal, with assist. If it's state/federal law that class 2/3/4 e-bikes are more restricted than class 1 in certain areas, that's not just on the internet. It's on a real paper document filed away in the county/state/federal office after ratification. It has real power to enforce laws.
    I like bread and butter. I like toast and jam too. Sometimes, when it's unseasonably hot outside, I like to cool off. Sometimes, when I'm feeling kinda blue, I like to do things that make me happy. Lots of things make me happy. Like lollipops, they make me happy. They come in so many flavors, it's hard to know what to get. So many decisions! Oh sweet lollipop, how I do love you so! Oh sweet lollipop, you really are so fine! I love it when I go somewhere and they have free lollipops sitting out. I just love that!!! I mean gosh, what could be better? I can't think of anything. I can't think of a single thing! I'm gonna go out right this very moment and get me a big ol' lollipop!!!!!

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    What happened to mopeds is that they fell into a huge spectrum between large-displacement motorcycles and e-bikes. There are so many different kinds of two, three, and four-wheeled bikes and ATV's, both gas and electric-powered, a moped is just one of them. There are still mopeds that are gas powered, I saw some Italian ones a while ago. Mopeds are not a joke, they can take someone from point A to point B in a heavy urban environment where parking is at a premium. They are much lighter than motorcycles and they, if they still have pedals, don't pedal like e-bikes, so they remain their own class of vehicle.

    Most of them do not have pedals anymore so they are NOT classed as e-bikes, or any bike, period. They are also much heavier than the average e-bike, looks online to be around 200-250 lbs on average. Even a heavy lead-acid battery e-bike is only around 110 lbs. The average E-bike is close to 50 lbs. No comparison. You can't say that 225 lb mopeds without pedals, that weigh as much as some lighter 150cc motorcycles, 'evolved' into 50 lb e-bikes with pedals. But I give you credit for your overactive imagination.
    I think mopeds are a lot like lollipops. You can lick em', yes you can. No, they don't taste good like lollipops, but you can still lick em'. Also like lollipops, they come in lots of different colors. Different colors are good, that way everyone can get a color they like. Well, most everyone, because there's only so many lollipops and mopeds to go around. We can't all have one, or at least everyone out there can't have one. That's sad, it makes me so so very sad. I want everyone to have a lollipop, and a matching moped too! Then everyone could ride their moped while licking their lollipops! Just think of the possibilities!

  67. #67
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    This thread has gone Mr. Rogers, wonít you be my neighbor?
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Um...I have no e-power without pedaling. So it does make a difference. If I'm on the throttle and stop pedaling, even with no resistance, the throttle cuts out. Maybe the LBS wired it that way on purpose to make it a strict class 1 in California, I don't know. And you don't control the motor with your legs, you control it with a push-button for wattage levels. If you are in level 0, you pedal with zero e-power. You know that!

    Purity is a perfectionistic, black and white term. Black and white thinkers do not want to think about relative shades of gray in a particular topic, so they label something one way or another, choose their side, and think they are done with the intellectual effort, when in fact they never even started with any objective analysis in the first place.

    The whole reason class 1 exists is BECAUSE you pedal with e-power. Are you saying that the legislators and e-bike advocates all made up class 1 out of thin air, and it's just some dumb academic thing to argue about, like how many atoms fit on the head of a pin? It is by far the most important thing keeping e-bikes on a different level than e-motorcycles, e-scooters, etc. You pedal, with assist. If it's state/federal law that class 2/3/4 e-bikes are more restricted than class 1 in certain areas, that's not just on the internet. It's on a real paper document filed away in the county/state/federal office after ratification. It has real power to enforce laws.
    Sure, I know the difference, I've ridden all classes of ebikes, and torque sensing and cadence PAS.

    I was also involved in the legislation here in Colorado and have talked to a number of people at P4B, who is writing them all. They simply adopted the EU Pedelc and S Pedelc standards, sort of, and then when sellers of throttle ebikes squealed, they added them in too. They exist to sell bikes, they want to make their members happy since they pay a lot of money for the lobbying. They didn't give emtb access any thought at all.

    In the vast majority of places ebikes are legal, Class 1&2 are treated exactly the same. It's only on mtb trails, which are the small minority, that Class 2 are verboten. The argument for ebike access is that what makes a ebike just like a bike is that they are low powered, and just provide assist, and that they are speed limited to cut out at 20 or 28. That's it. There isn't any language in the laws regarding pedaling, or not, it's solely at the discrection of the land manager. Why is a throttle ok on a bike path and not on singletrack? You have the same power, and the same speed limits on both ebikes, the same opportunities to be a sensible rider, or an idiot. Just because they look more like bikes? Is that really a reason?

    It's simply for appearances, if you're on a 750w cadence PAS, or have a throttle, it makes no difference in the affect you have on the trails outside of how you ride it, and zero to other trail users, you can put in as much effort or as little as you'd like. And that has no bearing on access either, seriously, LMs don't care how hard you're working. It's all for pretend.

    I mean, I respect your opinion, but if you have a motor on your bike adding in the amount of power you can legally choose to add, I'm not going to say that one way is "better" than another. Saying that Class 2 ebikes shouldn't be on mtb trails is the same emotional response as saying no ebikes should be on mtb trails.

    And yes, I've read the old limited IMBA study, where there is a small difference between mtb, PAS mtb and throttle emtb. If you can discount the difference between mtb and emtb, I don't see why you shouldn't discount the small difference between throttle and not. After all, it's the rider, not the bike right?

  69. #69
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    Itís because without the throttle the industry can play the ďbicycleĒ card. With it, itís technically a e motorcycle, no?
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

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    Nope, Class 2 ebikes are ebikes in every one of the new legislations, not motorcycles. Throttles make no difference. And the industry spent a ton of money making sure they were allowed.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Um...I have no e-power without pedaling. Blah, blah, blah.
    Oh this is going to be good. Where's the popcorn?

    EDIT: Doh! Too late
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    Remember, there's always quilting and knitting if pedalling becomes too tough.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Nope, Class 2 ebikes are ebikes in every one of the new legislations, not motorcycles. Throttles make no difference.
    You donít think thereís no sell there?
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    You donít think thereís no sell there?
    Sure. They've been pushing "stealth" for years. "Trust us, no one will notice"

    My point is, they are selling ebike access on power and speed limits, so why does a throttle matter? Do bike path walkers have tougher sensibilites than singletrack mtb riders? If you had a throttle on your focus, would that turn you into a lunatic somehow?

  74. #74
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    Maybe if I got whiskey throttle! I donít really care either way. If they are 20mph they are 20. Braap!
    Btw- Iím already a lunatic.
    Peace sells, but whoís buying..

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