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  1. #1
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    MTBR Engineering Rant

    I don't think it's too much to ask to keep your links alive. First it was old passion, then all the picture links were lost when the 2nd forums changed into the archives. Now all the pictures that were still there (gallery.consumerreview.com) are gone.

    This situation sucks. Microsoft sucks. Real engineers don't use toy operating systems to run commercial websites. It's not that hard. Really. This whole freakin site could be run by one guy in his bedroom on one server with a perl script.

    Thanks for all the enjoyment I've gotten from this site over the years. Sincerely. Thanks for tossing a bunch of my memories into the toilet. Sarcastically.

    It's my posts and my pictures that get people to click on your advertiser's links. How about some consideration? I guess I should put up my own site, post my pics there with some google adsense ads, and put simple short links here to my own content.

    http://archive.mtbr.com//00/0EF9DEB3.php
    Last edited by Fast Eddy; 11-11-2005 at 03:42 PM.

  2. #2
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    I agree that throwing memories and historical content down the toilet is pretty weak. I wonder how many people look through the archives? I've mostly stopped looking because all the pictures have gone. I can't believe that storage space is an issue, hard disk (SATA/IDE) space is less than $0.60 a GB these days, and is falling rapidly.

    MTBR.com should have a "Posting Hall of Fame" where the best posts (you probably know which ones I'm talking about, but maybe we could vote) are perserved. D.
    You be you. I'll be riding.

  3. #3
    Trail rider and racer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan!
    MTBR.com should have a "Posting Hall of Fame" where the best posts (you probably know which ones I'm talking about, but maybe we could vote) are perserved. D.
    It would be great to drag some of the old passion classics over into its own part of these forums, and to send other classic threads to that section. Stuff like Dalerider (http://www.execulink.com/~dtierney/w...der1/index.htm) threads and memories of forum members marriages etc.
    Trev!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan!
    I agree that throwing memories and historical content down the toilet is pretty weak. I wonder how many people look through the archives?
    I don't look becuase I know it doesn't work. I love these new forums, but I was thoroughly disappointed when we made the transitions and knew stuff would be lost. Most threads bring heaps of memories to a lot of people and they are lost now. I miss looking back on some of them (AZSF threads and alike) and heck I never even went or rode at those gatherings - but they were still a great source of entertainment.

    I have no idea about the technical logistics of all of this but do know the price of having a few TB of server storage space is super cheap these days - perfect for archiving but I wonder if perhaps its the bandwidth costs that make an option prohibitive?!?!?!?!?
    Trev!

  5. #5
    mtbr member
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    Flame suit on

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor!
    Most threads bring heaps of memories to a lot of people and they are lost now.
    I suppose I understand this sentiment, but really now, if these "memories" were so important why trust them to some third party website? You have some important pictures? Put 'em on a CD for Chrxxx's sake.

    Maybe I haven't been around the site long enough and aren't yet close enough to the MTBR community but this sounds a bit like whining to me.

    Step away from the computer, go outside, and get a life that is a little less virtual.

    See you on Monday.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dir-T
    Step away from the computer, go outside, and get a life that is a little less virtual.
    Been outside. Lots of times. I even used to have pictures to prove it.

    If there would have been known cut-offs for when stuff would be deleted, I would've made copies, but it always just disappears.

    With 30 day notice via a pinned post I would have nothing to complain about, and no one to blame but myself.

  7. #7
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    I assume that it was bandwith issues that killed the last archives. I also assume that MTBR hasn't officially deleted anything; they simple "removed" the archives from public view. Like people have said, storage space is cheap, and it would take a huge commitment by the admin to remove such valuable posts permanently. They would need a specific intent.

    As an admin, I usually go through about once a year and remove old things on my site that take up space. I download them to a backup, then delete them off the webserver. Hopefully the MTBR admin has done the same.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbum
    I assume that it was bandwith issues that killed the last archives. I also assume that MTBR hasn't officially deleted anything; they simple "removed" the archives from public view. Like people have said, storage space is cheap, and it would take a huge commitment by the admin to remove such valuable posts permanently. They would need a specific intent.
    I'm too exasperated to argue with you but you are wrong. The picture links in the archives were deleted accidently after having not been backed up properly. Then gallery.consumerreview.com was decommissioned (guessing here) because there were not that many links to the content, because they were mostly deleted.

    With so few links to those pictures there could not have been a bandwidth issue. What's unfortunate is that even though the links to the archive posts were lost, the pictures were still there if you knew the names.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dir-T
    I suppose I understand this sentiment, but really now, if these "memories" were so important why trust them to some third party website? You have some important pictures? Put 'em on a CD for Chrxxx's sake.
    This is not whining about "storing" pictures on a website - it is about reasons to keep coming back to this site (the basis of a Web business)... and to me the reasons to do so are declining. Not complaining, just stating a fact, for me, that is. D.
    You be you. I'll be riding.

  10. #10
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    Flame suit or not!

    Quote Originally Posted by dir-T
    Maybe I haven't been around the site long enough and aren't yet close enough to the MTBR community but this sounds a bit like whining to me.

    Step away from the computer, go outside, and get a life that is a little less virtual.

    See you on Monday.
    Don't take a condescending attitude with me either. I do have a life so go fock yourself before you make such a stupid assumption.

    Trev!

  11. #11
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    so, to review...

    Do the old posts and photo's exist somewhere in the dusty vaults, or do they not?
    I remember some FUN e-tard wars in the GT/BT- free classified forums...back in 99' or so?
    Is there anyway to access that stuff on a snowy, rainy, lame, post ski day?

    PS, Trevor...it's noon or so for you...what's for lunch?
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

    Thrill Bikers Unite!

  12. #12
    Trail rider and racer
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit
    PS, Trevor...it's noon or so for you...what's for lunch?
    Actually its just a little after 7:00 in the evening. Though my earlier post was just pre-ride. Lunch was 3.5 hours of saddle time, some great sun, a bit of rain, and some gusty winds followed by a nice big juicy hamburger.
    Trev!

  13. #13
    Old man on a bike
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    So what exactly happened then? Is it management cutting costs, is it bad software or simply bad management of the software/content? Personally I'm more of the idea that a website isn't a permanent storage device, so if there's something I want to save I save it to disk. For all I know this site could disappear if E-Centives goes belly up. For a free site it seems okay. Be nice if search worked better, and if I didn't have to sign in multiple times, tho.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy
    I don't think it's too much to ask to keep your links alive. First it was old passion, then all the picture links were lost when the 2nd forums changed into the archives. Now all the pictures that were still there (gallery.consumerreview.com) are gone.
    ...
    We still have all the pictures. Even the old webcrossing picture posts. Futher, we have the old webcrossing database. And backups of all the above.

    Our old gallery server was hacked mid-September. We allowed uploads from so many unsecure areas that a hacker figured out a way to upload some malicious tools. Our NetOPs team required us to take it all off line because they found viruses uploaded into the OS which would ultimately affect our parent company's rather large network (50+ machines).

    The old gallery server we took off line had about 20GBs of images all together. The gallery software was written without a database in custom ASP code that, due to recent software exploits, is now vunerable to the attacks mentioned above. This system would have to be reverse engineered in order for picture titles, descriptions and comments to be extracted from the old gallery.

    Our NetOPs team is working on restoring the old gallery as an image server only. In other words, only the refreneced images will show. The old ASP gallery with picture titles, descriptions and comments will have to remain offline until we have the resources to write an archive.
    "Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia" - H.G. Wells.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan!
    I can't believe that storage space is an issue, hard disk (SATA/IDE) space is less than $0.60 a GB these days, and is falling rapidly.
    I don't host a website, but even I can see this is a pretty short-sighted statement. Sure, you can get hard drive storage for less than 60 cents/GB, but what about the support equipment? Racks, cables and cords. Then there's the electricity to run the archive hard drives. Then there's the PHYSICAL storage space - all those HDs take up room somewhere. And then there's the time and salaries of people to maintain, manage and ensure uptime for those archives. And finally there's the bandwidth requirements for you to access those files in addition to the regular bandwidth requirements of the current forums.

    So all in all, I'd say your storage figure is way off base.

    I agree the 30 day notice would be nice if people wanted to retreive items, but remember, you're getting what you pay for. And accidents do happen as well as stupid morons with nothing better to do than hack up sites. Not much you can really say or do about that.

  16. #16
    Old man on a bike
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    Thanks for the explanation, sorry to hear about the invasion and problems.
    "...the people get the government they deserve..."
    suum quique

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife
    Thanks for the explanation, sorry to hear about the invasion and problems.
    Yup. Excellent response. Thanks.

  18. #18
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    but....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy
    Yup. Excellent response. Thanks.
    ....come on man, things change and you can never rely on any online service or website. mtbr serves a purpose, admirably, but Sh17 happens. never, ever, think things will stay as they are. obviously their intentions are good but the historical archives are NOT guaranteed. even if they manage to get them back, one day they will be gone. deal with it.
    =--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=
    frenzied

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh
    I don't host a website, but even I can see this is a pretty short-sighted statement. Sure, you can get hard drive storage for less than 60 cents/GB, but what about the support equipment? Racks, cables and cords. Then there's the electricity to run the archive hard drives. Then there's the PHYSICAL storage space - all those HDs take up room somewhere. And then there's the time and salaries of people to maintain, manage and ensure uptime for those archives. And finally there's the bandwidth requirements for you to access those files in addition to the regular bandwidth requirements of the current forums.

    So all in all, I'd say your storage figure is way off base.

    I agree the 30 day notice would be nice if people wanted to retreive items, but remember, you're getting what you pay for. And accidents do happen as well as stupid morons with nothing better to do than hack up sites. Not much you can really say or do about that.
    I think the point was made by the Admin that disk space was not the issue, which supports my point (disk storage space is not the issue). There is already a term for the other costs that you cite, its called "the cost of doing business".

    BTW, I think I am somewhat qualified to comment on this. Here are some cheap multi-terabyte storage options I recently calculated for work:

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Type Configuration Capacity(TB) Cost/Gb($)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ATA/SATA Disk Internal disk 0.4 0.56
    Linux desktop** 3 internal+2 USB external 2.0 0.73
    Linux desktop** 3 internal disks 1.2 0.84
    Linux Server* 6 internal+ 2 USB external 3.2 1.08
    LaCie 2 TB Storage Network server appliance 2.0 1.15
    Linux Server* 6 internal disks 2.4 1.21

    **Intel CeleronD 2.53 GHz, 256 Mb RAM
    *Intel SC5275 chassis, Intel ATX Motherboard, dual-3GHz Xeon CPUs, 2GB of RAM
    Last edited by Duncan!; 11-13-2005 at 12:43 PM.
    You be you. I'll be riding.

  20. #20
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    bottom line

    the bottom line, in my eyes is that no one really has a right to complain since there we are able to post in these forums for free. if it starts to cost us money (classifieds excluded) then maybe you can have some basis for complaining, but for right now, just be happy with the ability to continually post and share experiences and pictures with the biggest community of mountain bikers on the web. i didn't even know that the old post weren't available until just now - why would i want to go back and read old posts? if a particular thread has vital information that i can use, then i save it onto my own hard drive. same with the specific pictures that i fall in love with.

    CF

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan!
    I agree that throwing memories and historical content down the toilet is pretty weak. I wonder how many people look through the archives? I've mostly stopped looking because all the pictures have gone. I can't believe that storage space is an issue, hard disk (SATA/IDE) space is less than $0.60 a GB these days, and is falling rapidly.

    MTBR.com should have a "Posting Hall of Fame" where the best posts (you probably know which ones I'm talking about, but maybe we could vote) are perserved. D.
    Sure if you run a small DIY server in your house or office with ATA drives storage is cheap yet but substantially unreliable. A good service provider will have rackmount systems with SCSI storage enclosures etc. and adequate fail safe systems which are exponentially more expensive. Do you have any idea how much it costs for a single SCSI hot swappable drive of large enough capacity? Not just that the drives are expensive but you need to buy the drives from the same manufacturer who makes the enclosures since they all have their own custum hotswap assemblies.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Fever
    the bottom line, in my eyes is that no one really has a right to complain
    Too cut 'n dried... there's always got to be a balance. The site may be free, but admin strives to keep users happy in order to keep us posting here (without all of us, there is no MTBR).

    That's something that separates MTBR from most other vBulletin mountain bike forums -- in the past they've listened to our complaints, some insignificant and whiney, and worked out compromises to keep everyone happy. I'm happy to read the missing archives weren't just tossed out with last weeks trash.
    speedub.nate
    MTBR Hiatus UFN

  23. #23
    Code Monkey
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    I gotta admit, I was pissed at Fast Eddy's assumptions and comments about "real engineers". Of course M$ sucks. About four years ago I saw Bill Gates speak at a convention (OOPSLA ) and ever since have had a problem with the man and his ideas of software/OS/world domination. *nix roxors. (Note the .php extention on these forums.) But ten years ago (win 3.1 anyone?) M$ dominated and convinced a lot of business types that they were the only solid solution. I remember serveral bosses repeating the bullsheit mantra: "No one has ever been fired for choosing Microsoft."

    I have a better quote for all you software engineers: "If Windows is all you know, then you'll probably end up washing them." That's my thought too and I'm sticking to it.
    "Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia" - H.G. Wells.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rash
    .... if they manage to get them back, one day they will be gone. deal with it.
    This is me dealing with it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeG
    I gotta admit, I was pissed at Fast Eddy's assumptions and comments about "real engineers". Of course M$ sucks. ... *nix roxors. (Note the .php extention on these forums.)
    I knew I wouldn't be able to post this without stepping on toes. I know you guys know that I love you. 8^) I suppose I overlooked the .php extensions. Nice work getting the forums running on *nix, but if these were running on *nix they would have had less chance of getting hacked. I don't know who's in charge at the top, but an advocate like yourself should show them what OS runs on most commercial sites, and what gets hacked at what rate.

    http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_rep...l=www.mtbr.com
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  26. #26
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    SO last year

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecubus
    Sure if you run a small DIY server in your house or office with ATA drives storage is cheap yet but substantially unreliable. A good service provider will have rackmount systems with SCSI storage enclosures etc. and adequate fail safe systems which are exponentially more expensive. Do you have any idea how much it costs for a single SCSI hot swappable drive of large enough capacity? Not just that the drives are expensive but you need to buy the drives from the same manufacturer who makes the enclosures since they all have their own custum hotswap assemblies.

    SCSI IS DEAD...... Come into the future....
    If you wish to be out front, then act as if you are behind

  27. #27
    Trail rider and racer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude
    SCSI IS DEAD...... Come into the future....
    Yeah fiber channel is cheap as chips now.
    Trev!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor!
    Yeah fiber channel is cheap as chips now.
    And SATA *IS* hot swappable. Much of the "Enterprise IT" world is heading downmarket. Good for customers but bad for reseller margins, IMHO. D.
    You be you. I'll be riding.

  29. #29
    1946:2006:2066
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    with apologies to Lennon & McCartney

    Yesterday,

    All those backups seemed a waste of pay.
    Now my database has gone away.
    Oh, I believe in yesterday.

    Suddenly,

    There's not half the files there used to be,
    And there's a millstone hanging over me
    The system crashed so suddenly.

    I pushed something wrong
    What it was I could not say.

    Now all my data's gone
    and I long for yesterday-ay-ay.

    Yesterday,

    The need for backups seemed so far away.
    I knew my data was all here to stay,
    Now I believe in yesterday.

    (Just a reminder...)

    no...i didn't right it...

    michael
    "Be not afraid of going slowly but only of standing still." - Chinese Proverb

  30. #30
    It's about showing up.
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    A Public Trust

    The value at issue here is one of the MTBR Forum being a repository for an archive created by and serving the Mountain Biking community. As such, whether for free or fee, it is a Public Trust. It appears to me that there is a lot of heart and soul in this archive.
    At issue here is the question of sincere effort made to manage this Trust. It appears to me that our trustees have worked pretty hard on our behalf to make this an accessable and versitile organ. Kudos
    Looks like your basic a-holes have screwed it up; all the kings horses and all the kings men like. See: hackers, spammers, vandals. I'm not sure what we can do to help this situation. The solutions are scary; just look at old ladies with their shoes off at Airport Security.
    I am not giving up my Swiss Army Knife and certainly not my multi-tool or corkscrew!

  31. #31
    Recovering Weight Weenie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan!
    And SATA *IS* hot swappable. Much of the "Enterprise IT" world is heading downmarket. Good for customers but bad for reseller margins, IMHO. D.
    you guys having fun in here?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  32. #32
    Trail rider and racer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre
    you guys having fun in here?
    Oh LOL!
    Trev!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude
    SCSI IS DEAD...... Come into the future....
    You've never worked with these things at a large scale or enterprise level have you? I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. The point is that if storage is the problem, you can't just walk into CompUSA, buy a SATA 200GB hard drive for $150 and take it to you your service provider and be like "here just pop this in". It doesn't work that way. You will most likely have to get another drive of the same type used in the arrays at these places.

    Disk interface has very little to do with the cost of the disk or its performance. SATA is dirt cheap because its a consumer level product that has significant limitations in terms of expandability, flexibility, and reliability. They are cheap in construction, they are batch tested as opposed to individually tested to keep costs down, and are built to lower tolerances. SCSI and Fibre Channel have a staggeringly higher cost per gigabyte not because of the fact that their interface is SCSI or FC, but because they are built to far higher tolerances. Each drive is individually tested. materials are much better, performance is considerably higher. They are certified for 24/7 operation for years with extremely high MTBF. The end result is a drive thats going to cost 5 or 6 times more than a consumer level ATA drive of higher capacity. You could slap an ATA interface on it and it won't be any cheaper so why really bother. They are drives aimed at enterprise level and have interfaces that are designed for massive redundant arrays.

    Thats what Western Digital is doing now with the Raptor series. They are using what is basically a lower end SCSI drive and selling them as performance ATA drives. You'll notice they are quite more expensive and the sizes are traditional SCSI capacities.
    Last edited by Hecubus; 11-16-2005 at 09:53 AM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor!
    Yeah fiber channel is cheap as chips now.
    Current model FC carry roughly the same pricetag as SCSI given that they are mechanically the same drives with a slightly different interface.

    And to Padre, yes we are

  35. #35
    sh*t eater
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    Have you tried seeing if archive.org possibly archived the things posts you have lost? I try to hot link all my photos to my own website so that I'm responsible for them still being there years down the road.

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