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  1. #1
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    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?

    The arguments made for emtb access fall into three classifications, legal, emotional and impact.

    Legal, can vary based on the jurisdictions, feds, state, local etc. In almost all cases, including the more recent Class 1-3 legislation, Class 1 and 2 are treated exactly the same under the laws, and in some states are defined as bikes, or given the same access as bikes.

    Emotional:
    Slower riders can keep up
    Disabled riders can ride
    Unfit riders can ride
    More people will start riding
    It's still a great workout
    It's a great training tool since I can better control my level of output
    I still pedal

    Impact, trail and social:
    Look like bikes
    Silent
    Plus tires have less impact
    Same impact as a bike

    These are the various drive systems for emtbs, class 1 and 2. I did my best with estimated power levels, they could be off, but that isn't the point of the discussion as I see it.

    Torque sensing Pedal Assist
    The harder you pedal, the more assist you recieve. Overall level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider, from 50% to 400+%
    Rider input is @ 30-50% to 100%

    Cadence sensing Pedal Assist
    Spin the pedals and receive assist. Overall level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider, it's sort of like cruise control.
    Rider input is @ 20%-100%

    Torque sensing Pedal Assist with Throttle.
    Same as above, but with a throttle override, throttle level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider.
    Rider input is @ 0% to 100%

    Cadence sensing Pedal Assist with Throttle
    Same as above, but with throttle override throttle level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider..
    Rider input is @ 0%-100%

    Throttle only.
    Rider input is 0% - 100%

    You can pedal as much and as hard as you'd like with all of these systems. They can all fulfill the list of arguments for emtbs stated above. The only difference is the minimum amount of human power required to move them. The law treats them exactly the same, and in almost all ebike legal areas, they are both allowed. I mainly see people riding ebikes on bike paths, almost all using throttles with a few pedal revs to get going from a dead stop. I have to admit that it's a bit jarring to see someone on what looks like a bicycle, cruising along and not pedalling, but the reality is that is only because it's unusual, and a new sight. They aren't moving any faster than someone on a similar specced Class 1 ebike would, and their impact is exactly the same. I don't and I shouldn't care how much effort they are putting into riding it, it doesn't matter at all.

    Why is the fact that you still pedal on a Class 1 emtb some sort of validation, when you can easily replicate the same experience on a Class 2 emtb, but it's somehow not as legitimate since you use a throttle to add power? Ghost pedaling a Class 1 Cadence sensing PAS is ok, but using a throttle is not? Why?

    I'm genuinely curious, I really don't see why how you turn on your motor matters in any pragmatic way. The only true differences between a mtb and a emtb that matter regarding access are if having a motor is legal, and any differences in the impact to the trail and other users. How your emtb actually functions, how that makes you and other users feel, has no bearing on access.

  2. #2
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    I wouldn’t have an eBike without a throttle. It’s too useful for certain situations like starting off from a standstill enough to get the TA engaged especially. I do admit that it does bug me when I see someone just throttling along because they are missing the best part of the trip, pedaling.

    While I’m here I’ll give out a little tip. Seems like the reason people want shorter cranks is because they get lots of pedal strikes trying to keep the TA engaged because if you stop pedal motion it cuts out. All you have to do is apply a slight amount of pressure on one of the brakes, I use the rear 99% of the time, which allows you to keep enough pressure on the pedals keeping the TA system active. I use my long time standard 170’s and experience no more strikes than I did in the last 35 years.

  3. #3
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    I chose 165mm cranks for more clearance. I personally don’t care what class is on the trail. I’m an X moto guy, so who am I to judge?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    Why is the fact that you still pedal on a Class 1 emtb some sort of validation, when you can easily replicate the same experience on a Class 2 emtb, but it's somehow not as legitimate since you use a throttle to add power? Ghost pedaling a Class 1 Cadence sensing PAS is ok, but using a throttle is not? Why?
    Who makes a Class I cadence sensor equipped bike?

    The difference to me would be that you can't ghost pedal a Class I bike and go maximum speed due to the torque sensor, but you can ghost pedal a class II (cadence sensor equipped) bike up to max speed by adding to the power assist level.

    When the CA eBike bill was introduced, I saw a discussion about an additional problem with a throttle equipped bikes. That issue was in areas with many varied users on the path or trail. A bike with a throttle can cruise along at 20 miles per hour and a non rider using the trail might see a biker drifting down the trail some distance away and see them not pedaling then assume that they can cross the trail in front of the eBiker and a collision occurs. If you are on a class I bike and are going 20 miles per hour, you will need to be pedaling along quite vigorously and that will warn the uneducated trail user that you are proceeding with speed and they should wait for you to pass before crossing. The Class II designation is a means for future limits being placed on usage locations.

    Additionally a Class II eBike with a throttle has the potential to cause greater damage to a delicate trail system. Perhaps in the future when the USFS lifts its ban on eBikes, it will only be Class I bikes that do not have the same potential for tearing up the trails allowed on federal land. With a throttle, some punk on their new ebike can just sit on a trail and do "burn outs" for no reason other than to be "cool". You can not do burn outs on a Class I torque sensing ebike. You can spin out, but no more than the local stud racer when he is maxing out on a climb and gets too far forward.

    I sell both Class I bikes and Class II bikes at my shop and they are both great choices, but typically a different type of rider wants one or the other style depending on how they plan to ride it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    Who makes a Class I cadence sensor equipped bike?
    DIY kits and some manufacturers, I've seen posts on ebike forums of people wanting to add a throttle on some OEM cadence PAS ebikes, I'd have to dig around. Torque sensing is relatively new in the ebike world, the older ebikes I saw in the EU were all cadence sensing and legal Pedelcs, like Class 1 here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    The Class II designation is a means for future limits being placed on usage locations.
    Huh?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    The Class II designation is a means for future limits being placed on usage locations.

    Huh?
    I have edited my post to explain this better.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    The arguments made for emtb access fall into three classifications, legal, emotional and impact.

    Legal, can vary based on the jurisdictions, feds, state, local etc. In almost all cases, including the more recent Class 1-3 legislation, Class 1 and 2 are treated exactly the same under the laws, and in some states are defined as bikes, or given the same access as bikes.

    Emotional:
    Slower riders can keep up
    Disabled riders can ride
    Unfit riders can ride
    More people will start riding
    It's still a great workout
    It's a great training tool since I can better control my level of output
    I still pedal

    Impact, trail and social:
    Look like bikes
    Silent
    Plus tires have less impact
    Same impact as a bike

    These are the various drive systems for emtbs, class 1 and 2. I did my best with estimated power levels, they could be off, but that isn't the point of the discussion as I see it.

    Torque sensing Pedal Assist
    The harder you pedal, the more assist you recieve. Overall level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider, from 50% to 400+%
    Rider input is @ 30-50% to 100%

    Cadence sensing Pedal Assist
    Spin the pedals and receive assist. Overall level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider, it's sort of like cruise control.
    Rider input is @ 20%-100%

    Torque sensing Pedal Assist with Throttle.
    Same as above, but with a throttle override, throttle level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider.
    Rider input is @ 0% to 100%

    Cadence sensing Pedal Assist with Throttle
    Same as above, but with throttle override throttle level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider..
    Rider input is @ 0%-100%

    Throttle only.
    Rider input is 0% - 100%

    You can pedal as much and as hard as you'd like with all of these systems. They can all fulfill the list of arguments for emtbs stated above. The only difference is the minimum amount of human power required to move them. The law treats them exactly the same, and in almost all ebike legal areas, they are both allowed. I mainly see people riding ebikes on bike paths, almost all using throttles with a few pedal revs to get going from a dead stop. I have to admit that it's a bit jarring to see someone on what looks like a bicycle, cruising along and not pedalling, but the reality is that is only because it's unusual, and a new sight. They aren't moving any faster than someone on a similar specced Class 1 ebike would, and their impact is exactly the same. I don't and I shouldn't care how much effort they are putting into riding it, it doesn't matter at all.

    Why is the fact that you still pedal on a Class 1 emtb some sort of validation, when you can easily replicate the same experience on a Class 2 emtb, but it's somehow not as legitimate since you use a throttle to add power? Ghost pedaling a Class 1 Cadence sensing PAS is ok, but using a throttle is not? Why?

    I'm genuinely curious, I really don't see why how you turn on your motor matters in any pragmatic way. The only true differences between a mtb and a emtb that matter regarding access are if having a motor is legal, and any differences in the impact to the trail and other users. How your emtb actually functions, how that makes you and other users feel, has no bearing on access.

    I guess you have to look at it from the view of the Govt. officials who are making the rules under pressure from multiple groups, both for and against access. I don't think most of them are looking at it from a scientific point of view, they are looking at it from a 'How do we satisfy the majority of our constituents without significantly impacting the environment'.

    They know that real, 200-400 lb motorcycles and dirt bikes hurt the environment when they offroad. So they banned them on the vast majority of trails and many if not most fire roads as well, as least from what I've seen on the local signs. To them, in their head, bicycles are light and pedal, motorcycles are heavy and don't pedal. So mountain bikes are allowed on most trails and motorcycles are not. Then comes the e-bike. To the average Govt. official, I'm sure an e-bike to them is a pedal bike, unless proven otherwise. Then people start flooding them about all kinds of details like throttle, wattage, bike weight varying between under 40 lbs to over 100 lbs (lead-acid setup), blah blah blah and it's not surprising they get overwhelmed and just cannot care about splitting hairs on what's accessible and what's not. What's important to them is keeping their job, keeping their boss happy (which is NOT us), and having the majority of the public that accesses off-road areas relatively happy. This is why using pure logic to a Govt. employee is not going to work, because their priorities are not based on logic to begin with. To them, a bike that could work with just throttle only, is an electric-powered motorcycle, and motorcycles are already banned, case closed.

    As for actual trail impact: an environmentalist may start out with logic in what's granted access and what is not, but at the extreme end it winds up not being practical (ex. you can't finish breaking off a broken tree branch, because that 'hurts' the environment, even though you could avoid injuries for the next rider that comes around the blind corner at 15 mph and hits the broken branch). They may want to ban all bikes 'All mechanized vehicles' from the trail if they are extreme. They rationalize logic to their own personal idealistic view of cleansing the environment of all 'bad' things. Like someone with OCD can be a germophobe.

    Bottom line is that everything has an impact, even hiking on a trail, but there is no way an e-bike has the same environmental impact as a real gas-powered motorcycle. The e-bike may generate ruts/grooves in switchbacks and other turns a bit more than a 30 lb bike, but nothing compared with a 300 lb dirt bike. So e-bikes that are not using a throttle are classified as bikes. If you tell them that the majority of e-bikes could be pedaled AND could be 100% throttled, then they may end up banning all bikes with throttles as above; I assume that would be the vast majority of hub drive bikes and sparing many mid-drive bikes. Since I personally have a class II hub-drive bike, if that happened I'd simply convert to mid-drive (like I probably should have done anyway) and throw out the throttle, no big deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    Who makes a Class I cadence sensor equipped bike?

    The difference to me would be that you can't ghost pedal a Class I bike and go maximum speed due to the torque sensor, but you can ghost pedal a class II (cadence sensor equipped) bike up to max speed by adding to the power assist level.

    When the CA eBike bill was introduced, I saw a discussion about an additional problem with a throttle equipped bikes. That issue was in areas with many varied users on the path or trail. A bike with a throttle can cruise along at 20 miles per hour and a non rider using the trail might see a biker drifting down the trail some distance away and see them not pedaling then assume that they can cross the trail in front of the eBiker and a collision occurs. If you are on a class I bike and are going 20 miles per hour, you will need to be pedaling along quite vigorously and that will warn the uneducated trail user that you are proceeding with speed and they should wait for you to pass before crossing. The Class II designation is a means for future limits being placed on usage locations.

    Additionally a Class II eBike with a throttle has the potential to cause greater damage to a delicate trail system. Perhaps in the future when the USFS lifts its ban on eBikes, it will only be Class I bikes that do not have the same potential for tearing up the trails allowed on federal land. With a throttle, some punk on their new ebike can just sit on a trail and do "burn outs" for no reason other than to be "cool". You can not do burn outs on a Class I torque sensing ebike. You can spin out, but no more than the local stud racer when he is maxing out on a climb and gets too far forward.

    I sell both Class I bikes and Class II bikes at my shop and they are both great choices, but typically a different type of rider wants one or the other style depending on how they plan to ride it.
    Every Bafang mid-drive available in kit form for DIY is cadence sensing. I am surprised that a vendor would not know this.......

    BTW, it sounds like you are unclear about the difference between class 1 and 2: it has nothing to do with how power assist is sensed as it sounds like you think. The only criteria is that there be power assist of some sort and that the top speed under assist alone is 20 mph. Add a throttle to a Class 1 and you have a class 2.

    There is no reason my class 1 ebikes with BBSHDs cannot go the full 20 mph while ghost pedaling, in fact that’s the only way I ride. Again I am surprised that you do not seem to know this....?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    With a throttle, some punk on their new ebike can just sit on a trail and do "burn outs" for no reason other than to be "cool". You can not do burn outs on a Class I torque sensing ebike. You can spin out, but no more than the local stud racer when he is maxing out on a climb and gets too far forward.
    Sure. Is that it though? If both bikes were identical, neither 750w Class 1 or 2 would be roosting out of corners like you can on a moto, there's not enough power to break the back end loose whenever you'd like unless you're hanging off the front wheel. If the problem of people underestimating an ebikes speed because they don't see legs turning was actually a problem, you'd think it would be even worse on bike paths where it's easier to hold higher speeds, but it's not. There doesn't seem to be a difference in problems with Class 1 and 2 on bike paths.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    I sell both Class I bikes and Class II bikes at my shop and they are both great choices, but typically a different type of rider wants one or the other style depending on how they plan to ride it.
    A lot of that is because the current emtb market is primarily in the EU, they're only going to make EU spec emtbs, which means only 250w Class 1 if you want a real emtb. Sure there are some Class 2 fatbikes that you can ride offroad, but no one is really making a competent emtb with a throttle. That'll change once more people that actually know how to design a bike start designing around chinese motors like the Bafang Ultra. If I had a emtb, I'd prefer torque sensing PAS and a throttle like BigWheel has, for much the same reasons. I wouldn't do burnouts, tires are too freaking expensive.


    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Bottom line is that everything has an impact, even hiking on a trail, but there is no way an e-bike has the same environmental impact as a real gas-powered motorcycle. The e-bike may generate ruts/grooves in switchbacks and other turns a bit more than a 30 lb bike, but nothing compared with a 300 lb dirt bike. So e-bikes that are not using a throttle are classified as bikes.
    Of course, every use and user has an impact. I've yet to see anyone in the real world equate proper ebikes with motorcycles, land managers aren't idiots, they know the difference. If throttles made people behave badly, then they should be banned on bike paths, but they are not. I think the real reason is that without a throttle, everyone can pretend they aren't motorized, but with, it's harder. Seems like people can wrap their head around that on the bike paths without them exploding. Heads that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Every Bafang mid-drive available in kit form for DIY is cadence sensing. I am surprised that a vendor would not know this.......

    BTW, it sounds like you are unclear about the difference between class 1 and 2: it has nothing to do with how power assist is sensed as it sounds like you think. The only criteria is that there be power assist of some sort and that the top speed under assist alone is 20 mph. Add a throttle to a Class 1 and you have a class 2.

    There is no reason my class 1 ebikes with BBSHDs cannot go the full 20 mph while ghost pedaling, in fact that’s the only way I ride. Again I am surprised that you do not seem to know this....?
    I sell Bafangs and you are the one confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Every Bafang mid-drive available in kit form for DIY is cadence sensing. I am surprised that a vendor would not know this.......

    BTW, it sounds like you are unclear about the difference between class 1 and 2: it has nothing to do with how power assist is sensed as it sounds like you think. The only criteria is that there be power assist of some sort and that the top speed under assist alone is 20 mph. Add a throttle to a Class 1 and you have a class 2.

    There is no reason my class 1 ebikes with BBSHDs cannot go the full 20 mph while ghost pedaling, in fact that’s the only way I ride. Again I am surprised that you do not seem to know this....?
    The bbshd you have is not a class I bike or even a class II, in fact it the bbshd is not legal anywhere in the U.S. except private land. The 1000 or 1500 watt motor is not legal unless you register and insure it as a motorcycle.

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    I would even go as far as to say that the Bafang bbs02 750w motor is not a class I, II or III. It has a throttle (class ii), but a stock bbs02 goes faster than 28mph (class iii). We typically set the amp draw back to 18a vs the stock 25a and the bike rides within the legal limits producing 500w.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    The bbshd you have is not a class I bike or even a class II, in fact it the bbshd is not legal anywhere in the U.S. except private land. The 1000 or 1500 watt motor is not legal unless you register and insure it as a motorcycle.
    Again you don’t know what you are talking about: the BBSHD is fully programmable and can be run at any wattage one wants. If one wishes to have a 250w bike all you have to do is set the amperage to that level. Making blanket statements that are just plain factually incorrect in addition to your previous confusion regarding the difference between class 1 and class 2 makes me wonder what sort of advice you can give your customers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Again you don’t know what you are talking about: the BBSHD is fully programmable and can be run at any wattage one wants. If one wishes to have a 250w bike all you have to do is set the amperage to that level. Making blanket statements that are just plain factually incorrect in addition to your previous confusion regarding the difference between class 1 and class 2 makes me wonder what sort of advice you can give your customers?
    I am talking about a stock bbshd that as not been modified. see post 12 above yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    I would even go as far as to say that the Bafang bbs02 750w motor is not a class I, II or III. It has a throttle (class ii), but a stock bbs02 goes faster than 28mph (class iii). We typically set the amp draw back to 18a vs the stock 25a and the bike rides within the legal limits producing 500w.
    If your bikes are too fast for their intended class then you need to alter the gearing to limit top speed under power as well as the amperage. Again this is basic stuff.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    I am talking about a stock bbshd that as not been modified. see post 12 above yours.
    No, you said that the BBSHD that I have is not legal. You might have thought that is what you meant, but that is not what you typed.

    And you have yet to indicate that you know the difference between Class 1 and Class 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If your bikes are too fast for their intended class then you need to alter the gearing to limit top speed under power as well as the amperage. Again this is basic stuff.....
    what amperage do you have your bbshd set to? If you scaled it back to the same power of a class I or class III bicycle, why did you spend the extra money and add the extra weight to your ride?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    No, you said that the BBSHD that I have is not legal. You might have thought that is what you meant, but that is not what you typed.
    The "stock" bbshd is not legal. Thanks for clearing that statement up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    what amperage do you have your bbshd set to? If you scaled it back to the same power of a class I or class III bicycle, why did you spend the extra money and add the extra weight to your ride?
    Because I got them at cost when I was working at Luna for a few months several years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I'm genuinely curious, I really don't see why how you turn on your motor matters in any pragmatic way. The only true differences between a mtb and a emtb that matter regarding access are if having a motor is legal, and any differences in the impact to the trail and other users. How your emtb actually functions, how that makes you and other users feel, has no bearing on access.

    Peddle assist looks like a bicycle, therefore making it an easier "sell" as a non-motorized vehicle entitled to the same access as bicycles. There is no other logical reason IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Impact, trail and social:

    Same impact as a bike

    I don't think there is enough data to support this^ For sure I don't agree.
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    Bureaucrats and their institutions face different incentive structures than simply “do the best/right thing.” To the extent they are a creature of statute it can become increasingly inflexible and frustrating.

    There is little reward for assigning responsibility and risk to individuals to sort out themselves, even when warranted. Prohibiting and regulating out of an “abundance of nonsense” is the norm these days.




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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Because I got them at cost when I was working at Luna for a few months several years ago.
    So again if you scaled back your amp draw to make it legal, why didn't you buy the bbs02 (borderline legal) at cost and you could have saved some weight and cash as well as have the ability to buy an adapter to put a smaller chainring on the bike to lower your gear ratios?

    I have sold eBikes and eBike kits for more than 20 years, I'll take that knowledge learned during that time over someone's who has worked at a bike shop (lunacycle) for a few months.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills
    There is no reason my class 1 ebikes with BBSHDs cannot go the full 20 mph while ghost pedaling, in fact that’s the only way I ride. Again I am surprised that you do not seem to know this....?
    To add further to the discussion, you clearly don't understand that a class I torque sensing ebike can not reach maximum speed while ghost pedaling. If you know of a brand that makes a class I bike that uses cadence, please list it here. I asked the question above looking to gain knowledge.

    You can put a bafang bbshd on a bike and reprogram the controller and remove the throttle, but the sticker on the motor that says 1000w or 1500w clearly precludes the bike from being legal, at least in CA.

    What I am looking for is does anyone know of a true class I manufactured bike that uses cadence instead of torque sensors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    I have sold eBikes and eBike kits for more than 20 years, I'll take that knowledge learned during that time over someone's who has worked at a bike shop (lunacycle) for a few months.
    Wow. That makes your crazy claims about where ebikes can be legally ridden in California even more disturbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    The Class I bike I ride is legal to ride anywhere in the state of California that a regular bicycle is allowed. That is of course unless a local municipality has passed an ordinance that says otherwise.
    Your poor customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    ...What I am looking for is does anyone know of a true class I manufactured bike that uses cadence instead of torque sensors?
    Why? Those laws your referring too are useless, have no power and will never be enforced because there is no practical way to enforce them. Also, no one cares except for us here on this forum.

    The only two things that can be enforced when it comes to ebikes are:
    1. Is it going too fast?
    2. Does it look more like a motor bike than a bicycle?

    As long as your ebike looks mostly like a bicycle and you don’t speed, then you are riding a perfectly legal ebike. Power is irrelivent and so is throttle.

    https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/0...ignore-ebikes/


    Want to see what the vast majority of people who are buying ebikes are looking for? Take a look at the adds to the right of this thread...

    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?-0a4b4c3d-8d67-4b42-8acc-4b2c4204b75e.jpg

    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?-e9d68d4a-48d9-4b7c-a37d-2b3a7964b211.jpg

    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?-4f72756d-d950-4a6e-b647-c8dba90f039a.jpg

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    The arguments made for emtb access fall into three classifications, legal, emotional and impact.

    Legal, can vary based on the jurisdictions, feds, state, local etc. In almost all cases, including the more recent Class 1-3 legislation, Class 1 and 2 are treated exactly the same under the laws, and in some states are defined as bikes, or given the same access as bikes.

    Emotional:
    Slower riders can keep up
    Disabled riders can ride
    Unfit riders can ride
    More people will start riding
    It's still a great workout
    It's a great training tool since I can better control my level of output
    I still pedal

    Impact, trail and social:
    Look like bikes
    Silent
    Plus tires have less impact
    Same impact as a bike

    These are the various drive systems for emtbs, class 1 and 2. I did my best with estimated power levels, they could be off, but that isn't the point of the discussion as I see it.

    Torque sensing Pedal Assist
    The harder you pedal, the more assist you recieve. Overall level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider, from 50% to 400+%
    Rider input is @ 30-50% to 100%

    Cadence sensing Pedal Assist
    Spin the pedals and receive assist. Overall level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider, it's sort of like cruise control.
    Rider input is @ 20%-100%

    Torque sensing Pedal Assist with Throttle.
    Same as above, but with a throttle override, throttle level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider.
    Rider input is @ 0% to 100%

    Cadence sensing Pedal Assist with Throttle
    Same as above, but with throttle override throttle level of assist and it's ceiling limit is chosen by the rider..
    Rider input is @ 0%-100%

    Throttle only.
    Rider input is 0% - 100%

    You can pedal as much and as hard as you'd like with all of these systems. They can all fulfill the list of arguments for emtbs stated above. The only difference is the minimum amount of human power required to move them. The law treats them exactly the same, and in almost all ebike legal areas, they are both allowed. I mainly see people riding ebikes on bike paths, almost all using throttles with a few pedal revs to get going from a dead stop. I have to admit that it's a bit jarring to see someone on what looks like a bicycle, cruising along and not pedalling, but the reality is that is only because it's unusual, and a new sight. They aren't moving any faster than someone on a similar specced Class 1 ebike would, and their impact is exactly the same. I don't and I shouldn't care how much effort they are putting into riding it, it doesn't matter at all.

    Why is the fact that you still pedal on a Class 1 emtb some sort of validation, when you can easily replicate the same experience on a Class 2 emtb, but it's somehow not as legitimate since you use a throttle to add power? Ghost pedaling a Class 1 Cadence sensing PAS is ok, but using a throttle is not? Why?

    I'm genuinely curious, I really don't see why how you turn on your motor matters in any pragmatic way. The only true differences between a mtb and a emtb that matter regarding access are if having a motor is legal, and any differences in the impact to the trail and other users. How your emtb actually functions, how that makes you and other users feel, has no bearing on access.
    This is from my State (AZ)

    Passed in May 2018

    (a) "CLASS 1 ELECTRIC BICYCLE" MEANS A BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE THAT IS
    26 EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT PROVIDES ASSISTANCE ONLY WHEN THE
    27 RIDER IS PEDALING AND THAT CEASES TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE WHEN THE BICYCLE
    28 OR TRICYCLE REACHES THE SPEED OF TWENTY MILES PER HOUR.
    29 (b) "CLASS 2 ELECTRIC BICYCLE" MEANS A BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE THAT IS
    30 EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT MAY BE USED EXCLUSIVELY TO PROPEL THE
    31 BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE AND THAT IS NOT CAPABLE OF PROVIDING ASSISTANCE WHEN
    32 THE BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE REACHES THE SPEED OF TWENTY MILES PER HOUR.
    33 (c) "CLASS 3 ELECTRIC BICYCLE" MEANS A BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE THAT IS
    34 EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT PROVIDES ASSISTANCE ONLY WHEN THE
    35 RIDER IS PEDALING AND THAT CEASES TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE WHEN THE BICYCLE
    36 OR TRICYCLE REACHES THE SPEED OF TWENTY-EIGHT MILES PER HOUR.

    25. "Electric personal assistive mobility device" means a
    38 self-balancing device with one wheel or two nontandem wheels and an
    39 electric propulsion system that limits the maximum speed of the device to
    40 fifteen miles per hour or less and that is designed to transport only one
    41 person.

    28-819. Electric bicycles

    A. An operator of an electric bicycle is granted all the rights and privileges and is subject to all of the duties of a person riding a bicycle. Except as otherwise provided in this section, an electric bicycle is subject to the same provisions of this title as a bicycle.

    B. An electric bicycle is not subject to the provisions of this title relating to certificates of title, registration, vehicle license tax, driver licenses or vehicle insurance.

    C. Beginning January 1, 2019, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed and motor wattage of the electric bicycle and shall be printed in at least nine-point type.

    D. A class 1 electric bicycle or a class 2 electric bicycle may be used on bicycle and multiuse paths. A local authority or agency of this state having jurisdiction over a bicycle or multiuse path may prohibit the operation of a class 1 electric bicycle or class 2 electric bicycle on the path.

    E. A class 3 electric bicycle may not be operated on a bicycle or multiuse path unless it is within or adjacent to a highway or roadway or unless the local authority or agency of this state having jurisdiction over the path allows the operation.

    Multiuse path per the parks are paved, not a trail (dirt)

    our parks
    The Maricopa County Parks and Recreation Department classifies e-bikes as motorized vehicles, as defined in Park Rule R-107.1 (R-107 MOTOR VEHICLES AND BICYCLES).
    They can't enter non-motorized trails
    Too Many .

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Why is the fact that you still pedal on a Class 1 emtb some sort of validation, when you can easily replicate the same experience on a Class 2 emtb, but it's somehow not as legitimate since you use a throttle to add power?
    Why do you use a bike without a motor?

  28. #28
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    Wow. Hard to believe the ignorance being spewed about throttles on eBikes. Just because the EU decided to ban them from the start does not mean they are the devil's instrument. As I have stated they can be very useful in certain situations encountered during a ride and are not a magic button that all the sudden turns a 750w motor system into a fire breathing, roost producing monster that will eat trails alive. It is more my experience that it only enhances the eBike experience that will compensate for the extra weight of a motor system in some situations.

    And mr. bike store your view of ebikes in general for a dealer reminds me of a bike dealer in my area. Do you realize that any Class II bike can become Class 1 just by disconnecting the throttle and a cadence PAS then will only allow the bike to be propelled via the movement of the cranks making it Class I? So in fact any cadence PAS Class II bike can be Class I quite easily. However the Class laws making the rounds don't make any real distinction between the two classes for access sake so what is the point other than on this and other forums where ignorance is bliss?

    Keep in mind that the Class law is being promoted by the industry big wigs that is heavily influenced by the EU connection and I for one hope the state of Oregon at least never adopts it. Not because I want to see more power become more popular than it already is and has been for years in the garage tech sector. In reality for eMTB use by any cyclist worth their salt a 750w peak for eMTB use is all that one needs given a good TA PAS type bike to satisfy their needs on trails legal for their use.
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent701 View Post
    This is from my State (AZ)

    Passed in May 2018

    (a) "CLASS 1 ELECTRIC BICYCLE" MEANS A BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE THAT IS
    26 EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT PROVIDES ASSISTANCE ONLY WHEN THE
    27 RIDER IS PEDALING AND THAT CEASES TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE WHEN THE BICYCLE
    28 OR TRICYCLE REACHES THE SPEED OF TWENTY MILES PER HOUR.
    29 (b) "CLASS 2 ELECTRIC BICYCLE" MEANS A BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE THAT IS
    30 EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT MAY BE USED EXCLUSIVELY TO PROPEL THE
    31 BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE AND THAT IS NOT CAPABLE OF PROVIDING ASSISTANCE WHEN
    32 THE BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE REACHES THE SPEED OF TWENTY MILES PER HOUR.
    33 (c) "CLASS 3 ELECTRIC BICYCLE" MEANS A BICYCLE OR TRICYCLE THAT IS
    34 EQUIPPED WITH AN ELECTRIC MOTOR THAT PROVIDES ASSISTANCE ONLY WHEN THE
    35 RIDER IS PEDALING AND THAT CEASES TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE WHEN THE BICYCLE
    36 OR TRICYCLE REACHES THE SPEED OF TWENTY-EIGHT MILES PER HOUR.

    25. "Electric personal assistive mobility device" means a
    38 self-balancing device with one wheel or two nontandem wheels and an
    39 electric propulsion system that limits the maximum speed of the device to
    40 fifteen miles per hour or less and that is designed to transport only one
    41 person.

    28-819. Electric bicycles

    A. An operator of an electric bicycle is granted all the rights and privileges and is subject to all of the duties of a person riding a bicycle. Except as otherwise provided in this section, an electric bicycle is subject to the same provisions of this title as a bicycle.

    B. An electric bicycle is not subject to the provisions of this title relating to certificates of title, registration, vehicle license tax, driver licenses or vehicle insurance.

    C. Beginning January 1, 2019, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed and motor wattage of the electric bicycle and shall be printed in at least nine-point type.

    D. A class 1 electric bicycle or a class 2 electric bicycle may be used on bicycle and multiuse paths. A local authority or agency of this state having jurisdiction over a bicycle or multiuse path may prohibit the operation of a class 1 electric bicycle or class 2 electric bicycle on the path.

    E. A class 3 electric bicycle may not be operated on a bicycle or multiuse path unless it is within or adjacent to a highway or roadway or unless the local authority or agency of this state having jurisdiction over the path allows the operation.

    Multiuse path per the parks are paved, not a trail (dirt)

    our parks
    The Maricopa County Parks and Recreation Department classifies e-bikes as motorized vehicles, as defined in Park Rule R-107.1 (R-107 MOTOR VEHICLES AND BICYCLES).
    They can't enter non-motorized trails
    For the skimmers.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eFat View Post
    Why do you use a bike without a motor?
    You come on a bicycle website and ask this? Pretty much the definition of a troll.

    Once again, this thread was going fine until a ebiker starts trolling. Then they complain about how the "analog" bikers ruin their threads.
    By continuing to browse my posts, you agree to send me cookies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    So again if you scaled back your amp draw to make it legal, why didn't you buy the bbs02 (borderline legal) at cost and you could have saved some weight and cash as well as have the ability to buy an adapter to put a smaller chainring on the bike to lower your gear ratios?

    I have sold eBikes and eBike kits for more than 20 years, I'll take that knowledge learned during that time over someone's who has worked at a bike shop (lunacycle) for a few months.



    To add further to the discussion, you clearly don't understand that a class I torque sensing ebike can not reach maximum speed while ghost pedaling. If you know of a brand that makes a class I bike that uses cadence, please list it here. I asked the question above looking to gain knowledge.

    You can put a bafang bbshd on a bike and reprogram the controller and remove the throttle, but the sticker on the motor that says 1000w or 1500w clearly precludes the bike from being legal, at least in CA.

    What I am looking for is does anyone know of a true class I manufactured bike that uses cadence instead of torque sensors?
    Again with the blanket statement that is incorrect: all three of my BBSHDs are marked/engraved with 750w.

    And both of my fat bikes will reach 20mph when ghost pedaling only. That is the only way I ever ride and I assure you that I reach top speed with no torque input from the pedals. Again, you misunderstanding this is a function of your ignorance of what the rules are for Class 1 and Class 2 (something that you have quite obviously been avoiding addressing in your replies). If you clearly do not understand something so very basic, then how can you have even a shred of credibility on any other matter dealing with ebikes?

  32. #32
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    I forgot to mention that motorcycles are loud and smelly, that's another difference for an offroad comparison with e-bikes as far as hiker/family picnic complaints going to the rangers.
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't think there is enough data to support this^ For sure I don't agree.
    There isn't any data to support it, I'm just saying that is a pro ebike argument.

    The point of the thread isn't if ebike and bikes are the same, it's just that Class 1 & 2 ebikes can be identical except for how you turn on the motor, the law treats them the same, so why not the same access? Why does pedaling and how much effort you expend matter when it comes to ebikes? It's a motorized vehicle, embrace the motor. Bike path riders certainly do.

  34. #34
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    Why not everyone just answer the OP’s question? I personally don’t care who knows more about ebikes!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    You come on a bicycle website and ask this? Pretty much the definition of a troll.

    Once again, this thread was going fine until a ebiker starts trolling. Then they complain about how the "analog" bikers ruin their threads.
    Damn analog bikers... go back to Health and Fitness forum, it’s beer and burgers here!!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Why? Those laws your referring too are useless, have no power and will never be enforced because there is no practical way to enforce them. Also, no one cares except for us here on this forum.

    The only two things that can be enforced when it comes to ebikes are:
    1. Is it going too fast?
    2. Does it look more like a motor bike than a bicycle?

    As long as your ebike looks mostly like a bicycle and you don’t speed, then you are riding a perfectly legal ebike. Power is irrelivent and so is throttle.

    https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/0...ignore-ebikes/


    Want to see what the vast majority of people who are buying ebikes are looking for? Take a look at the adds to the right of this thread...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have never seen one and have six friends and family that ride emtbs and everyone owns a 250w class 1. I’m not saying your wrong, just thinking “vast majority” may be pushing it , no?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    I have never seen one and have six friends and family that ride emtbs and everyone owns a 250w class 1. I’m not saying your wrong, just thinking “vast majority” may be pushing it , no?
    Maybe, but the majority of ebikes are bought online and not in typical bike retailers. Did your friends buy their ebikes online? If not, then they are in the minority.

    But, what do you mean when you say “owns a 250w class 1”? What ebikes only put out a max 250w? I actually am curious. Doesn’t the levo put out like 500w and the new one is at 700w or something? How is that considered 250w?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    I forgot to mention that motorcycles are loud and smelly, that's another difference for an offroad comparison with e-bikes as far as hiker/family picnic complaints going to the rangers.
    What about electric motorcycles?
    I brake for stinkbugs

  39. #39
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    [QUOTE=tahoebeau;13824437]Maybe, but the majority of ebikes are bought online and not in typical bike retailers. Did your friends buy their ebikes online? If not, then they are in the minority.

    But, what do you mean when you say “owns a 250w class 1”? What ebikes only put out a max 250w? I actually am curious. Doesn’t the levo put out like 500w and the new one is at 700w or something? How is that considered 250w?[/QUOTE
    Just going by industry standard and yes - all purchased from brick and mortar.

  40. #40
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    The majority of ebikes are bought for and ridden on streets, bike lanes and bike paths, emtbs are a very small submarket.

  41. #41
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    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    Maybe, but the majority of ebikes are bought online and not in typical bike retailers. Did your friends buy their ebikes online? If not, then they are in the minority.

    But, what do you mean when you say “owns a 250w class 1”? What ebikes only put out a max 250w? I actually am curious. Doesn’t the levo put out like 500w and the new one is at 700w or something? How is that considered 250w?
    Seriously Tahoe. You need some electrical knowledge. Stop talking your embarrassing yourself. 500/700a/hr is the battery(gas tank) 250w is the horsepower. About 1/2 to3/4 hp. I get it analog or nothing. I’m not sharing my trails.


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  42. #42
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    "About 1/2 to3/4 hp"

    Here is some electrical knowledge for you tretopflir:

    750w = 1hp
    250w = 1/3hp
    A bike by any other name is still a bike.

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    Big wheel you are correct. Sorry was on a plane with limited Wi-Fi. I was guessing the peak of 500. Either way there is a lot of folks confusing battery size with motor size.


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    The 1.3 motor on the levo peaks over 700w, we'll see what the new 2.1 does.

    https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/e...r-output.1300/

  45. #45
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    That’s ok, isn’t the law 750?

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    UK law specifies 250w nominal, US law doesn't specify at all, so everyone assumes its 750w nominal as well. It's completely fuzzy.

  47. #47
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    I meant EU, not UK

  48. #48
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    10-4

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBikeStore View Post
    I would even go as far as to say that the Bafang bbs02 750w motor is not a class I, II or III. It has a throttle (class ii), but a stock bbs02 goes faster than 28mph (class iii). We typically set the amp draw back to 18a vs the stock 25a and the bike rides within the legal limits producing 500w.
    Curious where you're getting your Bafangs from; what I've purchased from Luna if selected base level are legal 750W Class 1 or 2. You can certainly order them hopped-up but there's plenty of disclosure stating that they're no longer legal in public. BTW; just don't install the throttle---BOOM instant cadence-sensing Class 1. (FWIW CA e-bike law doesn't use Roman numerals; it's 1-2-3 not I-II-III)

    Doesn't really matter what wattage ANY motor has stamped on it; it's how the controller is programmed. And that's the e-bike "fly in the ointment". Unless a LEO is also an EE he/she won't be able to tell.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    I ride a Bafang BBSHD and not a BBSO2 because the SHD comes in wide bottom brackets and the SO2 does not. The SHD is also about 10% more efficient than the SO2.

    The problem with Bafang throttles is that they bypass the programming and can deliver much higher power than 750 watts. For this and other safety reasons I did not install a throttle on my bike. It's not good when you are set for about 250 watts max and suddenly get 1,700. My bike is pedal only.

    Maybe someone else knows how to limit them.

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    The Federal eBike Law

    An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750 watts, and a top non-pedaling speed of 20 MPH (with a 170 pound rider). They are treated the same as pedal bicycles under the law according to the Federal Electric Bicycle Law HR 727. Note: There may be specific local ordinances in effect, though federal law is supposed to supercede.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tretopflir View Post
    Seriously Tahoe. You need some electrical knowledge. Stop talking your embarrassing yourself. 500/700a/hr is the battery(gas tank) 250w is the horsepower. About 1/2 to3/4 hp. I get it analog or nothing. I’m not sharing my trails.
    The Myth of Ebike Wattage - EbikeSchool.com

    “...This is very common in the industry. Ebikes sold with “250 watt” motors often come standard with 36V batteries and 15 or 20 amp controllers. As we saw, a 15 amp controller would mean the actual peak power supplied to the motor is closer to 540 watts and a 20 amp controller would be over 700 watts.

    Yea, “250 watts” my tuchus!

    ”...This is also an interesting example of how nonsensical many electric bicycle laws are. Limiting the wattage of ebike motors doesn’t necessarily limit how powerful they can be. Even though a motor is marked as 250 watts (and even if it may actually be a true 250 watt motor), anyone could connect it to a 48V battery and run 20 amps through the motor to achieve 1,000 watts of power...”

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfriz View Post
    They are treated the same as pedal bicycles under the law according to the Federal Electric Bicycle Law HR 727. Note: There may be specific local ordinances in effect, though federal law is supposed to supercede.
    You’re incorrect.

    See:

    https://www.electricbike.com/electric-bike-law/

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    I’d there any new ground being covered in this thread?
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    class 2 is superfluous as adding a throttle to a class 1 fundamentally changes nothing.

    I agree with Harry's novel assessment.

    Additionally, I find the idea of the user using software/hardware to limit a class 3 or higher ebike to a class 1 and thus make it legal to ride the same as a Levo/Focus/etc to be disingenious and dangerous precedent for ebikers trumpeting the e-rapture.

    There does not need to be evidence of bad behavior if the potential for bad behavior is too great. As always ebikes are their own worst enemies.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfriz View Post
    The Federal eBike Law

    An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750 watts, and a top non-pedaling speed of 20 MPH (with a 170 pound rider).
    Does this mean that since I am 140 lbs, it would top out at around 24mph for me?

    170/140=121%
    20x121%=24.286

    These things don't have a speedometer that cuts off when you hit 20mph regardless of rider weight? What happens when a 95lb kid rides one? That would be around 36mph, though I'm sure there are other factors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    class 2 is superfluous as adding a throttle to a class 1 fundamentally changes nothing.

    I agree with Harry's novel assessment.

    Additionally, I find the idea of the user using software/hardware to limit a class 3 or higher ebike to a class 1 and thus make it legal to ride the same as a Levo/Focus/etc to be disingenious and dangerous precedent for ebikers trumpeting the e-rapture.

    There does not need to be evidence of bad behavior if the potential for bad behavior is too great. As always ebikes are their own worst enemies.
    The other side of the coin is that Class 2 are really just under-powered mopeds which really are just under-powered motorcycles. A crank w/pedals on a Class 2 are like "teats on a boar hog" if the rider is only a throttle jockey.

    If somebody legitimately reprograms a Class 3 (or higher) e-whatever to Class 1 specifications so what? If anything it'll be of lesser performance because it will likely be heavier.

    The cat's out of the bag when it comes to modifications be it up or down. The next 10 years will be interesting.
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  58. #58
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    That is my point:if the classes are to have any legal validity then there is no "legitimately" reprogamming an inherently higher powered system, the bandaid does not change its nature. All are suspect, and that is likely how the USFS came to their current ban on ebikes on nonmotorized trails.

  59. #59
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    Haven't you all figured out the access issue yet? Every thread turns into a boring back and forth that isn't even worth reading any more than a skim. It's not the bike that is doing the hooning it is the rider. Sure having assist on board as the above poster said "There does not need to be evidence of bad behavior if the potential for bad behavior is too great. " I don't see this as the eBikes fault but the riders.

    Anyway getting back to throttles and such. EU based eMtb's are primarily 36v and the reason being that they could up the Amps some for better motor efficiency but were restricted by the "250w" rating. Here in the US that had eBikes written into Federal Law, as has been recorded here ad nauseam, for a long time as they started to make the scene 20 years ago or more.

    Our laws regarding wattage are 3 times as much as the EU rating and some states have a 1000w limit. So that has led to a 48v system being the most popular here with bikes, like the Rad models that have landed that guy on the NYSE, which run at 16A are 768w. So one would expect by the Federal and State laws that the 48v system is legal and thus the popularity of kits like the BBS02, Hub motors etc. but as aforementioned it is easy to manipulate a controller if you have the ability to program it either up or down.

    V x ah's = wh's. So a 10ah 36v battery is 360wh's. A 10ah 48v battery has 480wh's. Being as wh's basically equate to the amount of potential energy available from the battery given the same operating wattage and speed over ground and same terrain the 48v system has 120wh's more and 8 more miles of range at 15wh/mi which is about the average.

    So far the Rocky Mtn. Powerplay is the only playah that has speced 48v with their ground up motor/drive system design. Personally I use a 52v system which just adds a little more wh's as range is important to me, more so than power and I use it at 15A/780w peak and use eco mode exclusively and the throttle as mentioned above.

    All that is about to change however with the new 2170 cells. Backed by the current manufacturers of 18650 cells, and rarely do those folks look to compete with their own products, their slightly larger size and increased density will also increase range due to their higher Amp rating, up to 5A whereas the highest 18650 is around 3.8. What this means is that at any given A rate of either battery the 5A battery will be more efficient, thereby increasing range....this is known as the C rate or the rate of discharge based on a factor of 1.

    Here is an example of what a 48v 15ah/720wh is going to look like for the aftermarket. They will readily plug into just about any 48v system like the aforementioned.

    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?-0.jpg

    Granted the new batteries also allow for a higher A rate to be run at the controller level but every increase is a decrease in range potential based on your style of riding and terrain preference.

    Until they figure out how to make air batteries their weight will always be based on the /cell weight along with holders, BMS and case if applicable. In the end it is the controller programing that determines the amount of available watts and the motor is manipulated to do as it is commanded. But if you run a low wattage motor at it's peak for very long it will overheat whereas the higher wattage motor at the same watts will not.

    No doubt over time the motors will get lighter but I don't expect by much unless you want a really small one like they are putting on road bikes along with small wh batteries. To me this is hardly worth adding the extra weight and complexity to a road bike for the abiiity to "enhance" the experience as on company puts it. But I admit to being jaded after 3 thousand miles of riding 48v/25A and a 52v/20A Class me bikes that will do a way better job of enhancement.

    As I ride both somewhat overwatted on the road, the limit here in OR is 1000w, and slightly overwatted based on Federal Law on my mtb I know for sure that 1000w for riding single track is not necessary. I doubt that I spend even 10% of any given ride any where near peak on any of my eBikes. Well I have done a few full blast 30wh/mi battery burners on the road bikes for a quick workout pushing the 150" but mainly I go for range as I enjoy being out there.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    The other side of the coin is that Class 2 are really just under-powered mopeds which really are just under-powered motorcycles. A crank w/pedals on a Class 2 are like "teats on a boar hog" if the rider is only a throttle jockey.
    True, if you're riding throttle only, you'd look like a moped, but what you look like while riding your ebike has no bearing on anything legally, or access related. Besides, throttle only on a 750w emtb isn't going to get you that awesome of a riding experience, except maybe on the flats. I think most people would pedal as well, at least on emtbs, just like Class 1.

    By definition then, since Class 1 and Class 2 share the same parameters, would that make Class 1 under-powered mopeds?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    By definition then, since Class 1 and Class 2 share the same parameters, would that make Class 1 under-powered mopeds?
    The very first Harley-Davidsons had to be pedaled to make it up the slightest hill so in a historical context all of the modern e-bike "Classes" are under-powered mopeds. (But better power to weight than the early Harley's)

    When the going gets rough (20~30% climbs) my Class 1 and Class 2 bikes are identical; Turbo 4X and pedaling as hard as I can (Class 1) or WFO throttle and pedaling as hard as I can (Class 2).

    Where the rubber meets the dirt the power delivered is the same.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    (But better power to weight than the early Harley's)
    .
    No,,, The first HDs were 185lbs and 40hp. That is 1 to 4.6 power to weight.
    a 500w e-bike is about .5hp, at 35lb that is 1 to 70 power to weight. Ebike would need 7.5hp to have the same power to weight.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    No,,, The first HDs were 185lbs and 40hp. That is 1 to 4.6 power to weight.
    a 500w e-bike is about .5hp, at 35lb that is 1 to 70 power to weight. Ebike would need 7.5hp to have the same power to weight.
    Boy you are full of it; where'd you get that 40 HP number?

    I'm too lazy to walk to the bookshelf and get some real info from a real book but this is what wiki has to say:

    "Production in 1905 and 1906 were all single-cylinder models with 26.84 cubic inch (440 cm³) engines. In February 1907 a prototype model with a 45-degree V-Twin engine was displayed at the Chicago Automobile Show. Although shown and advertised, very few V-Twin models were built between 1907 and 1910. These first V-Twins displaced 53.68 cubic inches (880 cm³) and produced about 7 horsepower (5.2 kW). This gave about double the power of the first singles."

    Those first singles are what I'm referring to; had barely enough power to break the wind.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    No,,, The first HDs were 185lbs and 40hp. That is 1 to 4.6 power to weight.
    a 500w e-bike is about .5hp, at 35lb that is 1 to 70 power to weight. Ebike would need 7.5hp to have the same power to weight.



    That is so ludicrous. You better bone up on the factual numbers of the early motorcycles before you look like a fool. Oh, wait.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfriz View Post
    The Federal eBike Law

    An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750 watts, and a top non-pedaling speed of 20 MPH (with a 170 pound rider). They are treated the same as pedal bicycles under the law according to the Federal Electric Bicycle Law HR 727. Note: There may be specific local ordinances in effect, though federal law is supposed to supercede.
    Pop quiz - what does the Consumer Product Safety Commission do?

    Hint - they don't decide where people can ride what.
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  66. #66
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    Interesting, the new Levo has both cadence sensing and torque sensing....

    "A completely new feature is the Shuttle Mode which can be enabled through the Mission Control App. Enable it and rather than the usual torque based assistance, the motor provides power based on your cadence. That will be especially useful for less fit riders because the full power of the motor is delivered with a lower pedalling input. Simply put: at higher cadences (from around 60 rpm) the full power of the motor is used without having to pedal at 200 W."

    https://www.emtb-news.de/news/en/specialized-levo-2019/

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Interesting, the new Levo has both cadence sensing and torque sensing....

    "A completely new feature is the Shuttle Mode which can be enabled through the Mission Control App. Enable it and rather than the usual torque based assistance, the motor provides power based on your cadence. That will be especially useful for less fit riders because the full power of the motor is delivered with a lower pedalling input. Simply put: at higher cadences (from around 60 rpm) the full power of the motor is used without having to pedal at 200 W."

    https://www.emtb-news.de/news/en/specialized-levo-2019/
    Would be a joke if it was a simple magnet based sensor and you could just rock the pedals a inch or two past it, back and forth. xD

    Never figured out how current cadence sensors work, so excuse my ignorance if it's nothing like that. Still, I'm laughing at the thought of people trying to ride in such a way.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Would be a joke if it was a simple magnet based sensor and you could just rock the pedals a inch or two past it, back and forth. xD

    Never figured out how current cadence sensors work, so excuse my ignorance if it's nothing like that. Still, I'm laughing at the thought of people trying to ride in such a way.
    On bafangs, you can spin the pedals in either direction, the software just reads the rpm. Pedal backward, go forward.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    On bafangs, you can spin the pedals in either direction, the software just reads the rpm. Pedal backward, go forward.


    well as long as it's not a throttle
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    Would be a joke if it was a simple magnet based sensor and you could just rock the pedals a inch or two past it, back and forth. xD

    Never figured out how current cadence sensors work, so excuse my ignorance if it's nothing like that. Still, I'm laughing at the thought of people trying to ride in such a way.
    According to another member, it's a quick and easy hack to get the sensors as you described. He mentioned backpedalling and the bike going forward.
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  71. #71
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    AFAIK the Bafang controllers are smart enough to not let you pedal backwards to go forwards; the Cyclone controllers are not that smart. One of these days I will YouTube a ride pedaling backwards; it looks pretty weird!

    (Actually not a matter of the controllers being smart or not it's a matter of where the cadence sensor is positioned in regard to the freewheel at the crank)
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Boy you are full of it; where'd you get that 40 HP number?

    I'm too lazy to walk to the bookshelf and get some real info from a real book but this is what wiki has to say:

    "Production in 1905 and 1906 were all single-cylinder models with 26.84 cubic inch (440 cm³) engines. In February 1907 a prototype model with a 45-degree V-Twin engine was displayed at the Chicago Automobile Show. Although shown and advertised, very few V-Twin models were built between 1907 and 1910. These first V-Twins displaced 53.68 cubic inches (880 cm³) and produced about 7 horsepower (5.2 kW). This gave about double the power of the first singles."

    Those first singles are what I'm referring to; had barely enough power to break the wind.
    I was reading from the Harley website and it said 185lbs and 40mph not hp, sorry for the mistake. After thinking about it I realized modern 750 HDs are only 53hp, stupid mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That is so ludicrous. You better bone up on the factual numbers of the early motorcycles before you look like a fool. Oh, wait.
    I notice from your posts you spend a lot of effort being rude. I find it uncalled for and have to ask, are you this rude to people you don't know when talking in person?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    I was reading from the Harley website and it said 185lbs and 40mph not hp, sorry for the mistake. After thinking about it I realized modern 750 HDs are only 53hp, stupid mistake.



    I notice from your posts you spend a lot of effort being rude. I find it uncalled for and have to ask, are you this rude to people you don't know when talking in person?



    You mistake pointed honesty for rudeness, but if you'd like to make a complaint;


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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    AFAIK the Bafang controllers are smart enough to not let you pedal backwards to go forwards; the Cyclone controllers are not that smart. One of these days I will YouTube a ride pedaling backwards; it looks pretty weird!

    (Actually not a matter of the controllers being smart or not it's a matter of where the cadence sensor is positioned in regard to the freewheel at the crank)
    My mistake, I read that somewhere. I'd like to see a video though, I'm sure it's amusing

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierreR View Post
    I ride a Bafang BBSHD and not a BBSO2 because the SHD comes in wide bottom brackets and the SO2 does not. The SHD is also about 10% more efficient than the SO2.

    The problem with Bafang throttles is that they bypass the programming and can deliver much higher power than 750 watts. For this and other safety reasons I did not install a throttle on my bike. It's not good when you are set for about 250 watts max and suddenly get 1,700. My bike is pedal only.

    Maybe someone else knows how to limit them.
    I found a great way to limit my commuter with BBS02: DO NOT INSTALL THE THROTTLE lol

    I found I hate the silly throttle on a DIY ebike. I prefer the cadence sensing alone. Though it is a very 'dumb' cadence sensing, it only turns the motor on/off when it senses pedalling/notpedalling. So I can pedal along putting out nearly 0 watts at the pedals and the BBS02 outputs whatever it takes to get to XX RPM, unlike my Rockymtn Powerplay which has very sophisticated torque sensing, and cost about 3-4x as much. But then the BBS02 would be a hazard for proper trail riding, really clumsy system for the fine control needed to manipulate a mtn bike imho.

  76. #76
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    I have a Perry's Power Bikes (NY) M1 Pro Mountain. It's got the Bafang motor with throttle. I don't use it much but it IS nice to have as an option. I will eventually try this bike for patrol work so the throttle may give me an edge in certain situations.

    The throttle has a disconnect male/female plug on the cable so if I go into an area where they are prohibited I suspect I'd just disconnect it and rely on pedal assist. To me it's like hunting, some game / areas require you to limit your shotgun to three rounds so even if you have a longer feed tube, you put in a block and you're good to go.

  77. #77
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    Is case there are some here don’t know (including those selling eBikes) you can “basically” ghost pedal a torque sensor by simply putting pressure on the pedal while you turn the system on. This allows you to get full power with virtually no human assistance. Simply gear up as your speed increases to keep the pedal sensor engaged. Try it.

    And those that think you can ghost pedal a BBS## mid-drive backwards and retain power to the system (I hope you’re joking?), this is not true. Any slight backpedal motion cuts the motor assist instantly. I use this like a clutch to shift my IGH eBikes and tossed the damn shift sensor out the window.
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  78. #78
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    Honestly, I think Class 2 E MTBs should be built by Specialized, Yamaha, etc. You even have KTM making mountain bikes as well as Dirtbikes. I fail to see why shops and almost everywhere online have only Class 1. Throttle is fun. It's still very much a workout no matter if the power is your legs or throttle. Just look at Enduro Riders. I find it silly people think Class 2 and 3 is illegal. Even more ironic that the cost of a Class 2 E MTBs or even a high powered 7000 to 16000 watt bike is the same as a regular Demo 8 S works or TC125. Ranging from 7500 to 13000.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    much effort they are putting into riding it, it doesn't matter at all.

    Why is the fact that you still pedal on a Class 1 emtb some sort of validation, when you can easily replicate the same experience on a Class 2 emtb, but it's somehow not as legitimate since you use a throttle to add power? Ghost pedaling a Class 1 Cadence sensing PAS is ok, but using a throttle is not? Why?
    Nobody is going to verify what class your electric machine is. So this is purely a theoretical discussion. If motors are legit where you ride you'll be fine on a class 1, 2, 10, home built, etc... There is no special police force that is going to patrol the forest and be able to at a glance know your machine is not the correct type, stop you, investigate further and then ticket you.

    If you allow motors on a set of trails you are allowing anything vaguely similar to use the trails even if they are not technically legal. That's just the reality of the situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Nobody is going to verify what class your electric machine is. So this is purely a theoretical discussion. If motors are legit where you ride you'll be fine on a class 1, 2, 10, home built, etc... There is no special police force that is going to patrol the forest and be able to at a glance know your machine is not the correct type, stop you, investigate further and then ticket you.

    If you allow motors on a set of trails you are allowing anything vaguely similar to use the trails even if they are not technically legal. That's just the reality of the situation.
    Just like some folks don't verify the age of the posts that they reply to...

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Just like some folks don't verify the age of the posts that they reply to...
    Like 6 months makes this issue irrelevant? What is your point?
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  82. #82
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    There's something funny about this juxtaposition:
    Why Class 1 and not Class 2?-1247904-funny-picture-meme-thread-lance.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Like 6 months makes this issue irrelevant? What is your point?
    Oblivious folks don't pay attention to the differences between electric motor bicycle classes on the trail just like oblivious folks don't pay attention when they reply to six month old posts.

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    I think the bike industry is still too conservative in setting ebike speed. it will take a decade for the whole industry to mature.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Oblivious folks don't pay attention to the differences between electric motor bicycle classes on the trail just like oblivious folks don't pay attention when they reply to six month old posts.
    OG-MTB my friend, I see you’re still cranky as usually Can you remind us why you stalk the ebike forum? I’m sure there are a lot of people who don’t understand stuff like: DIY lights, gravel bikes, SS bikes, etc... Who don’t go stalking those forums and looking for trouble, but yet you do.

    Like someone else pointed out the original post is like 6 months old, seems relevant to me.

    Now that I have a class 1 ebike, I have a better understanding of the 3 class system. If a class 1 is allowed, I don’t see why a class 2 bike shouldn’t be allowed. Class 3 has the 28mph top speed. The trails I ride, a normal bike can easily hit those speeds on the downhill, but there has to be rules. Just my opinion.

  86. #86
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    It's really speed/power that matter. I could care less if you do it by twisting a throttle or pedaling. And as Vic points out, there's really no enforcement anyway, so have at it.

    -Walt

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    It's really speed/power that matter. I could care less if you do it by twisting a throttle or pedaling. And as Vic points out, there's really no enforcement anyway, so have at it.

    -Walt
    Theoretically a park ranger could ask to see the sticker on my Haibike (Labeled Class 1 500 watts) but I don’t expect this to happen. My only concern with a throttle is that extra wheel spin is possible because there’s less feedback to the rider. As far as power goes, bike motor plus rider has less power and torque than bike plus rider so a lazy class II rider won’t be as fast as a motivated class I rider. Arizona treats class I and class II ebikes the same so a throttle isn’t a problem here anyhow.

    Here’s someone’s suggestion for traction control of an eBike; a front wheel speed sensor used to provide a reference speed for the rear wheel. That way we wouldn’t have people throwing rooster tails off of their class II ebikes.

    https://www.singletracks.com/blog/fo...ction-control/
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    Meh, I have a 750W cargo bike and it's pretty hard to spin the rear wheel unless you're starting from a dead stop on a low-traction hill. That's with a commuter tire, too.

    You can haul ass pretty good and be a real jerk on the trail/path with 750 extra watts (even with an 85 pound bike) but roosting is just not something that's a concern until you get a lot more power. Of course, there are DIY setups and monsterbikes that can do it.

    I think there's a perception among the general public that throttle=moto, though.

    -W

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by og-mtb View Post
    Oblivious folks don't pay attention to the differences between electric motor bicycle classes on the trail just like oblivious folks don't pay attention when they reply to six month old posts.
    You think 6 months makes for an old post around these parts?

  90. #90
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    These laws are dumb and easy to work around. Do we need the gov't inspecting our bicycles now? No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    You think 6 months makes for an old post around these parts?
    "old post" is obviously relative and my point stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post

    I think there's a perception among the general public that throttle=moto, though.

    -W

    This is 99% of the e-bike perception problem. People hear or see that street e-bikes have throttles, then they hear that there are e-mountain bikes being made. And they know that dirt bikes have throttles, and those are banned on most trails, so they put two and two together, and equate an e-mountain bike to a dirt bike because they think both have throttles. It's simply not true. But we are in an era where untruth sells more than truth. Truth is boring and technical (think Al Gore), untruth is sexy and dramatic.

    The vast majority of e-mountain bikes don't have a throttle, and even if they did, 250-500W is almost 100 times less equivalent power to a dirt bike that has 20-30 horsepower or 20,000 watts. Two completely different propelled devices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    AFAIK the Bafang controllers are smart enough to not let you pedal backwards to go forwards; the Cyclone controllers are not that smart. One of these days I will YouTube a ride pedaling backwards; it looks pretty weird!

    (Actually not a matter of the controllers being smart or not it's a matter of where the cadence sensor is positioned in regard to the freewheel at the crank)

    Not that it really matters in this forum, but a Bafang hub drive controller will allow you to pedal backwards and that will propel the bike forwards. I know because I've done it accidentally hundreds of times trying to get on the bike again, pedal goes back, bike lunges a foot or two forward then spins out and stops.

    Oh I have a funny story this reminded me of. I stopped by a smog check station to show them my e-bike (they have a couple of gas-powered mopeds in the front area that they are working on, so they were interested in what I rode). They asked for a small demonstration. Well, I was in the office, the front tire was sitting on their industrial grey rug. I twisted the throttle, and as usual, it spooled up towards the 750W max, and the frigging tire ate up the entire rug lol. The 6x6 25 lb rug literally went up in the air and over the tire. Oops. They took it OK, no customers in the office...
    From Ancient Times - Scarlet Skies Burn to Ash

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata View Post
    These laws are dumb and easy to work around. Do we need the gov't inspecting our bicycles now? No thanks.
    If government inspection and licensing of eBikes is the difference between my being able to ride my relatively harmless eBike and my alternative, walking, I prefer the licensing option. Otherwise when a few guys show up on 60 amp / 52 volt overdriven BBSHD conversions with 3500 watts it’s game over for me; back to walking or riding five miles or less.

    It’s about preserving a*ces* (dirty word not allowed on this forum).

    Here’s the guy praising his BBSHD that I hope can ride with moderation when it matters:

    https://howtoebike.com/bafang-bbshd-review/
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    No,,, The first HDs were 185lbs and 40hp. That is 1 to 4.6 power to weight.
    a 500w e-bike is about .5hp, at 35lb that is 1 to 70 power to weight. Ebike would need 7.5hp to have the same power to weight.


    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    That is so ludicrous. You better bone up on the factual numbers of the early motorcycles before you look like a fool. Oh, wait.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson
    This first "real" Harley-Davidson motorcycle had a bigger engine of 24.74 ... The prototype of the new loop-frame Harley-Davidson was assembled in a ... 53.68 cubic inches (880 cm³) and produced about 7 horsepower (5.2 kW).


    Still a 14-fold difference in horsepower or watts, but I don't think that Harley could exactly charge up a dirt hill trail.

    Not very amusing when person A ridicules person B's facts, and yet provides zero facts of their own.
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  96. #96
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    I think everyone is failing to see the big picture here. Throttles do not alter the capability of the bike...but that's not the point of banning them. Throttles change how the bike is used. Nothing forces an e-bike to be used as a bicycle more directly than requiring pedaling in order to add assist. Yes, it also requires proportional assist to avoid "ghost pedaling" but that's another matter. I favor requiring proportional assist as well.

    E-bikes ridden on the road benefit from throttle override in ways that are far less useful once you ride on the trail. Anyone who's watched videos of throttle-only riders, or who has spent time reading forums frequented by riders who prefer it, know that throttle vs. PAS is either/or on trails. Throttle riders don't pedal.

    So posters making the same point ad nauseam that throttle itself doesn't matter are completely missing the point. The value in banning throttle is in altering human behavior, not bicycle capability.

    Another point, throttle override itself is useful because no effort is made to mitigate not having it. If throttles were banned from all e-bikes, the "industry" would have motivation to improve products so that the loss of throttle was less a burden. Aftermarket PAS blows big time but that could change.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    If government inspection and licensing of eBikes is the difference between my being able to ride my relatively harmless eBike and my alternative, walking, I prefer the licensing option. Otherwise when a few guys show up on 60 amp / 52 volt overdriven BBSHD conversions with 3500 watts it’s game over for me; back to walking or riding five miles or less.

    It’s about preserving a*ces* (dirty word not allowed on this forum).
    I agree, but realistically, there is and will be no enforcement of class restrictions or licensing. And even perfectly legal bikes can simply (and invisibly) be hacked/dongled to be much much more powerful, meaning that even if you wanted to try to determine the class/power output of a bike, it would be next to impossible without dynoing the darn thing.

    There will just be bans, or no bans. I think we'll see just how many idiots it takes to ruin things for everyone once e-bikes are a little more popular/cheaper/more widespread.

    -Walt

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    And even perfectly legal bikes can simply (and invisibly) be hacked/dongled to be much much more powerful, meaning that even if you wanted to try to determine the class/power output of a bike, it would be next to impossible without dynoing the darn thing.
    You grossly overestimate the ease in which drives can be modified. Existing drive systems are made to not easily be modifiable and have numerous limitations that govern maximum output even if they were easily hacked. This is pure FUD, not backed up by any logic or data whatsoever.

    Also, you're the one talking about speed and power then posing an argument as to why any such limitations are worthless yet you oppose throttle bans. In the past you argued against e-mtbs having maximum weight limits, a suggestion specifically made because it avoids the speed/power enforcement trap, directly addresses safety and offers easy enforcement. Your argument against this? Because you claimed ANY restriction is too great a burden for enforcement. Literally what you said. Why have regulations when none can possibly be effective? Easy, because you support bans.

    It's not hard to read between the lines, Walt. According to you, e-bikes must be regulated yet no regulation, no matter how simple, will be effective, and all of this is predicated on a poor understanding of technology. Defining an e-bike is not especially hard, except for those who don't want to see constructive progress.

    Also, an electric motor's power can be realistically determined without a "dyno". That's absurd. Nothing more annoying that someone talking as though they are an expert when they don't even know what "dongle" means.

  99. #99
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    Hey, I've got no dog in this fight. E-bikes got banned on the trails around here right after a couple moto guys brought their 3000w monsterbikes out and ruined it for everyone else.

    For the record, I support full access for EU Class 1 bikes (that is, max 250w and cutoff at 25 kph). That's plenty to have all the same fun as a capable/fit mountain biker, regardless of your physical condition. 750w/20mph is too rich for my blood but I'm ok with it on trail systems where it makes sense - ie with good sight lines, mostly directional trails, and no overall access problems for bikes (almost everything in Moab, for example, would be just fine).

    The reality is that the cat is out of the bag, though. And actually, hacking production bikes is trivially easy (for most) - toodle on over to Endless Sphere sometime.

    You can see for yourself what's available here if you're bored: https://www.ebiketuning.com/

    They can help you with Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Brose, Panasonic, BionX, etc, etc!

    In the event that power limits can't be determined/enforced and illegal/overpowered bikes start showing up...yeah, I'm down for banning them all.

    -Walt

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    You grossly overestimate the ease in which drives can be modified. Existing drive systems are made to not easily be modifiable and have numerous limitations that govern maximum output even if they were easily hacked.
    Every current EU spec emtb on the market can easily be derestricted.

    Every Bafang drive can be derestricted and the max power limits modified by the user/manufacturer.

    It doesn't make them motos by any means, but it's a given that ebikes are easy and relatively cheap to modify.


    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    Throttles do not alter the capability of the bike...but that's not the point of banning them. Throttles change how the bike is used. Nothing forces an e-bike to be used as a bicycle more directly than requiring pedaling in order to add assist.
    Why is that important on one type of multiuse trail populated by the same users and not on another? If the reasoning is that they don't have enough power to do any trail damage, who cares?

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