Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina 180mm- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina 180mm

    just gonna leave this here, next to my bucket of airplane glue.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-pole1.jpg  

    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-pole2.jpg  

    Last edited by paradelap; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:24 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hope you’re alright!
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  3. #3
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    Oh My Lord...that’s scary. It’s one of the big reasons I was hesitant to even consider the CNC bikes. That and the fact that I could get 2 Evolink frames for less $.
    Hope you’re ok, as that looks awful. Can only imagine what POLE gonna do on this...


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    How big was the jump you cased?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoshJosh View Post
    How big was the jump you cased?
    Just riding along....

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoshJosh View Post
    How big was the jump you cased?
    the jump was big enough to rip an airplane apart....apparently, haha.

    actually, a cased feature would lever the fork backwards, creating a wider split at the top than the bottom.

  7. #7
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    wow

    wow


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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    the jump was big enough to rip an airplane apart....apparently, haha.

    actually, a cased feature would lever the fork backwards, creating a wider split at the top than the bottom.
    Incorrect. A front impact would do what you said but a case where the rear wheel comes up short would splay the fork out the headtube as shown here.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoshJosh View Post
    Incorrect. A front impact would do what you said but a case where the rear wheel comes up short would splay the fork out the headtube as shown here.
    Nose case vs 50/50. I agree 50/50 case will do what the photo shows. Honestly not sure what else would? Riding backwards like Fabio?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Nose case vs 50/50. I agree 50/50 case will do what the photo shows. Honestly not sure what else would? Riding backwards like Fabio?
    fair enough. a 50:50 case usually happens when you are not going fast enough. but there is a landing that can exhibit similar forces: over jump to flat... interestingly the failure appears to be bit off axis, similar to being slightly crossed up from whipping on a landing. it's not my failure, but i know the rider and the issue. I have had my own catastrophic bike failures, albeit different.


    that said, I am all the sudden a fan of carbon head tubes, haha.
    Last edited by paradelap; 1 Week Ago at 11:08 AM.

  11. #11
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Nose case vs 50/50. I agree 50/50 case will do what the photo shows. Honestly not sure what else would? Riding backwards like Fabio?
    u know the word comes from moto and it means the engine case hitting a feature

    front case is oxymoron

  12. #12
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    Why is it broken frames often appear with someone's first post? Sign up to warn the rest of us? Or some retribution against the manufacturer?

    There is broken Stumpy recently too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Why is it broken frames often appear with someone's first post? Sign up to warn the rest of us? Or some retribution against the manufacturer?

    There is broken Stumpy recently too.
    everything breaks. everything is breakable. how is post count relevant to mechanical failure? what post count makes somebody capable of sharing a relative data point?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    everything breaks. everything is breakable. how is post count relevant to mechanical failure? what post count makes somebody capable of sharing a relative data point?
    So you've used the forum for nothing other than displaying a broken frame? What useful input have you provided so far? As I said, signing up to post a broken frame smacks of retribution. Thankfully the title is obscure enough it shouldn't show too high in google results.
    I'm not defending the manufacturer but it definitely reeks of sour grapes. And no explanation of how it broke. And it's not even your bike!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    So you've used the forum for nothing other than displaying a broken frame?
    negative. i have used it to gather data points from others so that i can make informed decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    What useful input have you provided so far?
    a data point on a frame failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    As I said, signing up to post a broken frame smacks of retribution.
    you got me. or perhaps i don't think all frame failures are created equal.

    but that would be a good data point for your thread on single posts and sour grapes. otherwise its irrelevant to the topic of this thread. the reason for posting has zero to do with severity or type of failure. rather than being constructive you are trying to tear down the source. smacks of rose colored glasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Thankfully the title is obscure enough it shouldn't show too high in google results.
    fixed it for you. that way all who care to learn can find it in a google search. thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I'm not defending the manufacturer but it definitely reeks of sour grapes.
    and i am not calling them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    And no explanation of how it broke. And it's not even your bike!
    i alluded to it: flat landing from an over jump.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    negative. i have used it to gather data points from others so that i can make informed decisions.
    And your sole contribution to the forum is second hand info and posting a broken bike frame with no context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    And your sole contribution to the forum is second hand info and posting a broken bike frame with no context.
    what other context would you like...trying to keep it on topic for you my precious mudguard. i know everyone wants you to turn this into a character assassination of me and derail from the topic of the thread.
    Last edited by paradelap; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:14 AM.

  18. #18
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    I don't want any more context. I think the thread should be deleted or wait until we've heard from the owner of the bike as to what Pole or the shop say. Manufacturing defect, user error/abuse. Who knows?

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    whoa

  20. #20
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    Jesus.
    Less isn't MOAR

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    Hi all,

    That's unfortunate, and we hope that the rider is ok and he contacts us. At the moment, we don't have any more information about the incident than the pictures here on the MTBR forum. We have tested our frames with the mountain biking standards and we don't want to jump into conclusions before we know more about this case. We will communicate when we know more.

    -Pole Bicycles

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    And your sole contribution to the forum is second hand info and posting a broken bike frame with no context.
    at least OP waits to post until they have very interesting content that is totally bike related and not some useless drivel like me and the rest of us do constantly.

    so once OP posts some real stuff you gotta rag on OP ? nahhh

    ---------------

    OP is balling hard and broke the bike...

    good content imho
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    I don't want any more context. I think the thread should be deleted or wait until we've heard from the owner of the bike as to what Pole or the shop say. Manufacturing defect, user error/abuse. Who knows?
    this sounds like soviet russia to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by bike_futurist View Post
    this sounds like soviet russia to me
    no, no, no! you must censor all things that make you uncomfortable then rely on your governing bodies to deliver to you what you want to hear!

    i get it, it makes (the collective) you uncomfortable....especially if you have any bike with a seam/split headtube design. we will all get smarter from it.

  26. #26
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    I'm curious to hear the details on how this happened. Not blaming Pole as landing to flat on an over jump can potentially cause catastrophic failure to any frame.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by manpurse View Post
    I'm curious to hear the details on how this happened. Not blaming Pole as landing to flat on an over jump can potentially cause catastrophic failure to any frame.
    The hell you say!

    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-img_1527.jpg
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    at least OP waits to post until they have very interesting content that is totally bike related and not some useless drivel like me and the rest of us do constantly.

    so once OP posts some real stuff you gotta rag on OP ? nahhh

    ---------------

    OP is balling hard and broke the bike...

    good content imho
    No way. I'd much rather read lot more posts from a forum-police-wannabes fantasizing about what they would do "if I were in charge around here..."

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by manpurse View Post
    I'm curious to hear the details on how this happened. Not blaming Pole as landing to flat on an over jump can potentially cause catastrophic failure to any frame.
    Also who knows how many times the rider may have cased or overshot a jump before this failure happened too. Casing a jump puts a massive amount of strain on the headtube area. I remember seeing a carbon Intense do the same thing on a small jump that the rider cased.

    Posting that with absolutely no context is just being an a$$hole. If it failed JRA than yeah make the issue known but was this bike abused or not?

  30. #30
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    It’s a data point for us to see. The post does not seem inflammatory nor reactionary. It’s just a FYI. Sure everything can break. I’ve never seen a Stamina break in this manner so it is news to me. Will it change my opinion on if I’m gonna buy a Pole: no. Does it change my opinion of Pole? Hard to say. I’ve seen their bikes fail before and I’m still on the Pole forum. And it’s a fricking Stamina 180. It should be able to handle huck to flat. If the dude didn’t break his wrists (before his face hit the dirt) then this is unexpected. IMHO. Sorry ‘bout the bike. Best wishes.

  31. #31
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    It is a weird failure. I've seen a good number of ripped off head-tubes but can't remember seeing one that actually split up the middle like that.

    It looks like the frame is some sort of clamshell design, with a seam up the middle; is that true?
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    It is a weird failure. I've seen a good number of ripped off head-tubes but can't remember seeing one that actually split up the middle like that.

    It looks like the frame is some sort of clamshell design, with a seam up the middle; is that true?
    pole stamina. CNC clamshell design https://polebicycles.com/stamina/

    Also there have been numerous threads where someone joins just to post a broken frame because they are pissed off the manufacturer isn't responding, hoping to force their hand. We have seen these deleted, we have seen these with the OP eating crow, and we have seen these do nothing.

    I think many of the older users here have seen these and are suspicious why someone would post this with first contacting pole. Even if it is a huck to flat I would expect a 180mm bike to be able to handle that but I would also wait to see what pole has to say.

    Of course Pole popped in here and comment, which makes one happy to see such a quick response. The frame in the photo doesn't look like the one on their website so be interesting to see if it was an earlier model.
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  33. #33
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    some aircraft and aluminum adhesive lap joints can go to 8000psi tensile strength...if that was not clamshell the tensile strength could be up to 70,000psi

    an MTB front fork is a pretty good lever so I can imagine a bad huck could force the steerer pretty hard and split like we see
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    The break is super clean, just weld it back together.
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    pole stamina. CNC clamshell design https://polebicycles.com/stamina/
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  36. #36
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    Maybe his frame was a prototype that accidentally got sent out with a thinner "prototype" headtube?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Truck View Post
    It’s a data point for us to see. The post does not seem inflammatory nor reactionary. It’s just a FYI. Sure everything can break. I’ve never seen a Stamina break in this manner so it is news to me. Will it change my opinion on if I’m gonna buy a Pole: no. Does it change my opinion of Pole? Hard to say. I’ve seen their bikes fail before and I’m still on the Pole forum. And it’s a fricking Stamina 180. It should be able to handle huck to flat. If the dude didn’t break his wrists (before his face hit the dirt) then this is unexpected. IMHO. Sorry ‘bout the bike. Best wishes.
    This is NOT a data point without context. Useful data will have information of how this bike was used before this happened. For all we know it was being used for freeride and hucked on off huge features which an enduro bike isn't made for. It also could have been used on casual jumps and maybe hucked to flat occasionally which it should survive without any issues.

    Saying this is a "data point" is no different than thinking the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around us. Which kind of makes sense with observations at a glance until you actually collect even a small amount of information and find that it's completely wrong.

  38. #38
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    hmmmm

  39. #39
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    At least these bikes withstand all kinds of long term abuse from the pro riders, so would be interesting to know what exactly happened here. A few screenshots certainly are not "data".
    https://www.instagram.com/p/B9JMHAHntHN/

  40. #40
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    known, how strong 7075-T6 is

    unknown, what matrix, type, and how strong the 'glue' Pole used

    bike can only be as strong as the glue bond,
    which is far less strong than 7075-T6 fwiw

    not saying glued bikes are an issue, I've owned several...starting way
    back with a Trek 2000 road bike ...

    but for a hucking machine a solid pipe headtube
    and glue used elsewhere might be the ticket
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  41. #41
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    You can see the aluminium broke, as well as the glue bond.

    This was a newer frame it seems, the older ones had 3 screws through the head tube. Apparently they have redesigned it again, after pinkbike broke one and (well, read it yourself, ha).

    The only thing I get from pole (not from this thread) is that they design and release, then redesign and release... and continue. They probably need to spend more time between releases. Test for years, then keep that proven model for years, especially when using a fairly uncommon technique. Your basic tube frame has 100+ years of development, so you "know" broadly how thick tubes need to be and what arrangement they need to be in before any direct analysis. With a bike like this one, you got nothing to start with. You need to test, and test, and retest.

  42. #42
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    Not at all surprised.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirvi View Post
    At least these bikes withstand all kinds of long term abuse from the pro riders, so would be interesting to know what exactly happened here. A few screenshots certainly are not "data".
    https://www.instagram.com/p/B9JMHAHntHN/
    we can agree to disagree on that. we have no data on how much a pro rides a frame before its swapped or how their equipment differs from wares pushed out to the consumer. some would even argue that pros are less abusive on their equipment as they more routinely find the transitions rather than over/under jumping. but that is a debate for another thread.

    as far as data is concerned, the pictures are not opinion. there is no "i think" the head tube split. we hope, for all parties involved, that it is an anomaly and it will be the only one. for now, the "n" of split head tubes is at least 1.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    For all we know it was being used for freeride and hucked on off huge features which an enduro bike isn't made for. It also could have been used on casual jumps and maybe hucked to flat occasionally which it should survive without any issues.
    This is interesting in that several people have pondered the "misuse/abuse" position of this. What is misuse of a 180mm bike with w a 63.5* head angle? What does Pole state as the limitations of its use? They do sponsor athletes to ride them like the stole them on DH worth courses (By the way, Enduro is a race format, not a bike style). This is not a shot any bike manufacturer, just an exploration of what we think a bike like this designed to withstand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    This is interesting in that several people have pondered the "misuse/abuse" position of this. What is misuse of a 180mm bike with w a 63.5* head angle? What does Pole state as the limitations of its use? They do sponsor athletes to ride them like the stole them on DH worth courses (By the way, Enduro is a race format, not a bike style). This is not a shot any bike manufacturer, just an exploration of what we think a bike like this designed to withstand?
    Seems like Pole makes that pretty clear based on the link bostik posted. 180mm+ is classified as freeride/downhill according to bostik's link.

    None the less how was this bike used? There is still no "data point" without some data about how the bike was ridden. From the start I didn't say the bike should or shouldn't have broke. I'm not trying to protect Pole; I said you need to provide more information. If you can't provide some context then GTFO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Seems like Pole makes that pretty clear based on the link bostik posted. 180mm+ is classified as freeride/downhill according to bostik's link.

    None the less how was this bike used? There is still no "data point" without some data about how the bike was ridden. From the start I didn't say the bike should or shouldn't have broke. I'm not trying to protect Pole; I said you need to provide more information. If you can't provide some context then GTFO.
    yup. my first time seeing that link. seems like they peg the 180mm bike for "DOWNHILL RACING, LIFT-ACCSS RIDING, LARGER DROPS AND JUMPS" where they recommed "BODY ARMOR AND A FULL FACE." my guess is that a flat landing fits in that category. and if we are to assume that is the upper extreme of mountain biking, then it is reasonable to believe that the answer to "how the bike was ridden" is like a DH or Freeride bike....anything different would be less extreme with less expectation of failure. It's not like we are dissecting an XC bike that failed after a jump and asking how the bike was ridden. It's not an XC bike that was being ridden like a freeride bike.

    i don't really get the shoot the messenger mentality here. i haven't passed judgment. it's a data point, whether or not you like it. is it comprehensive? we don't yet have all the details, so no. perhaps he was riding it in a manner beyond which DH and FR bikes were intended, at which case we have established the need for a new category of bikes.

    Since you insist that i GTFO, i just don't know what to do but curl up and cry....the thought that we can't be friends breaks my heart.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-polio.jpg  


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    I don't own a Pole but they make some nice bikes. They seem to like making nice bikes. When someone posts just a photo of a broken bike with no other info it wreaks of unjustified brand bashing just because someone's unhappy with the outcome. A company who makes nice bikes for us to enjoy doesn't deserve that kind of bashing.

    If a company screws you over on a warranty claim then cool, share it so we know not to buy from them. If a frame breaks tell us how it was ridden so we know it's limitations for how we ride. Even if that's a freeride bike, that way I know if this bike was being ridden off 20ft cliffs and that's what I like to do than I need to avoid this bike. Like you said everything can be broken. We need to know what it took to break it. If you don't even have all of the info than don't bash a design until you know what it went through.

    Since Pole themselves classify that travel as freeride with no upper limits of jump size they should without a doubt warranty the frame. Assuming it was within their 2 year warrenty period. I'd be interested to know if they cover this or not. That would be useful data.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    I don't own a Pole but they make some nice bikes. They seem to like making nice bikes. When someone posts just a photo of a broken bike with no other info it wreaks of unjustified brand bashing just because someone's unhappy with the outcome. A company who makes nice bikes for us to enjoy doesn't deserve that kind of bashing.

    If a company screws you over on a warranty claim then cool, share it so we know not to buy from them. If a frame breaks tell us how it was ridden so we know it's limitations for how we ride. Even if that's a freeride bike, that way I know if this bike was being ridden off 20ft cliffs and that's what I like to do than I need to avoid this bike. Like you said everything can be broken. We need to know what it took to break it. If you don't even have all of the info than don't bash a design until you know what it went through.

    Since Pole themselves classify that travel as freeride with no upper limits of jump size they should without a doubt warranty the frame. Assuming it was within their 2 year warrenty period. I'd be interested to know if they cover this or not. That would be useful data.
    i am not bashing anything. i posted a factual picture of a failure. to use your logic the first Boeing 787 Max that failed without explanation is not a data point. it is a data point, and a very useful one. when the second Boeing 787 Max failed, it established a trend. The "n" didn't start at 2, it had to start at 1. i am not implying that there is a trend here, but the "n" is now 1.

    why all the fuss about the 787 Max's? people died. why do i care to post this picture? to motivate every stamina owner to take a peak at their head tube so that they can make sure they are not riding with a comporomised bike. it's not like this has the same outcome as a broken chainstay.

    if my intent was to drag Pole through the mud, wouldn't i be much more effective posting it in the 29er forum which has over 52k posts? No, I posted it in the Pole folder which has exactly 9 threads.

    there is more context that was recently posted on Poles FB page that gives the context that it was an XC type trail. informed us the the rider's face is pretty banged up.

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    Definitely a different view point on my end that's causing some miscommunication. With my occupation I deal with occasional mechanical failures. The failure itself isn't data to me, the data is what you learn from studying why it failed and how to prevent it from happening again. Probably seems like splitting hairs but I wasn't seeing the failure as much as I wanted to know why it failed.

    People post bad things with no context when they want to make someone else look bad. I still can't see anyone posting this way just as a data point without trying to make someone or something look bad. If you posted some info about how it happened you wouldn't have gotten any flack from the members here.

    Hopefully the rider heals up quick. Very bad to hear it happened on XC trails but we still don't know the history of how it was ridden. Bikes don't break after one hit unless it was a serious manufacturing defect. Which given the clamshell design is a decent possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Definitely a different view point on my end that's causing some miscommunication. With my occupation I deal with occasional mechanical failures. The failure itself isn't data to me, the data is what you learn from studying why it failed and how to prevent it from happening again. Probably seems like splitting hairs but I wasn't seeing the failure as much as I wanted to know why it failed.
    ha. no harm, no foul. just a different lense....

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    At the moment we are talking with the rider. He didn't want these photos to get online. The photos are screenshots from his private Strava and only someone who follows him has access to these.

    We have met the rider earlier and we know how he rides. He is a friend and we will warranty his frame. Also, we have to get to the bottom of this. This incident is one of a kind at the moment. We have a detailed documented data of the frame manufacturing phases with weight before bonding, weight after bonding, and the batch number of the adhesive used. Also, we have the names who worked with the frame and who inspected it before shipping. With all this data we can track others for example if we find that the adhesive is the problem. When we get the failed frame, we can find the reason why the frame broke. We will arrange a pick up for the frame next week.

    Since this is only one incident we are not yet taking any actions. However, we remind everyone to check their frames regularly before every ride. Washing your bike throughout is a good routine where you can go through the frame and parts. I personally check my frame, tires, and parts after every ride when I wash the frame. When the frame is clean, it's easiest to see if something is not right.

  53. #53
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    So the OP isn't the rider? What a joke, comes here to smear Poles rep. GTFO
    Kind of like playing an electric drum kit

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    i am not bashing anything. i posted a factual picture of a failure. to use your logic the first Boeing 787 Max that failed without explanation is not a data point. it is a data point, and a very useful one. when the second Boeing 787 Max failed, it established a trend. The "n" didn't start at 2, it had to start at 1. i am not implying that there is a trend here, but the "n" is now 1.

    why all the fuss about the 787 Max's? people died. why do i care to post this picture? to motivate every stamina owner to take a peak at their head tube so that they can make sure they are not riding with a comporomised bike. it's not like this has the same outcome as a broken chainstay.

    if my intent was to drag Pole through the mud, wouldn't i be much more effective posting it in the 29er forum which has over 52k posts? No, I posted it in the Pole folder which has exactly 9 threads.

    there is more context that was recently posted on Poles FB page that gives the context that it was an XC type trail. informed us the the rider's face is pretty banged up.
    well smarticus, your data is bad. what the hell is a 787 MAX ?
    there is no such airplane.

    stfu before you hurt yourself with your data points



    Train Wreck was right, not your bike, just stolen strava pics.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    well smarticus, your data is bad. what the hell is a 787 MAX ?
    there is no such airplane.
    Rebranding so people wont realise they are in a deathtrap...

    :P

    I'm on the fence with this one. Knowing one failed is good public awareness, but indeed, without a story, it is not a data point. When pole gets the frame back, learns from it, and then implements a correction (weather that's new glue, new qc, new staff, new design, new warnings) then it is a data point.

    Anyone now hate the term data point?

    The risk with showing a broken frame out of context here is different than showing a tube frame broken. With a tube frame, people KNOW something horrible went wrong and its not a fault of the idea of the tube frame. When you have an unusual concept design break, people jump to "im not surprised" "never buying a bonded frame" etc etc. It can bury not just pole (who may or may not deserve it in the end), but the whole design concept, which isn't fair. This is still happening with carbon frames. People show reams of pics of broken frames out of context and say "see, carbon bad".

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    Those trails look a lot like Brushy Creek, although I'm certain across the planet that there are many trails that look like that. I have spotted a really fast fella on a Pole out there as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    So the OP isn't the rider? What a joke, comes here to smear Poles rep. GTFO
    smear

    /smir/
    verb
    1. coat or mark (something) messily or carelessly with a greasy or sticky substance.
    "his face was smeared with dirt"
    2. damage the reputation of (someone) by false accusations; slander.

    no accusations made. just two pics posted. neither false accustations nor slander. therefore, no smear.

    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    well smarticus, your data is bad. what the hell is a 787 MAX ?
    there is no such airplane.

    stfu before you hurt yourself with your data points

    Train Wreck was right, not your bike, just stolen strava pics.
    thanks for the call out. but for clairication:

    if i fix the three errant keystrokes of "787" to "737" can you enlighten us on how it changes the failure data point?

    i am s'ingTFU so you don't hurt yourself with logic. the failure is the failure (again ALL manufactureres have failures) no matter how much you the topic, the thread, my post count, or god knows whatever character assassination you are hell bent on keeps you up at night.

  58. #58
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    Reminds me of that one video of some guys in Cali where one guy was yelling for someone to "pedal pedal pedal" on some gap jump and the rider on an Intense Tracer carbon 50:50'd the landing, and the head tube got split in front by the fork. His reaction to it was dumbfounded. Heard Intense warrantied it.

    Do they not fasten the haves with screws on the Stamina too? I recall the Machines having them on the non-drive-side: https://nsmb.com/articles/riding-pol...e-in-whistler/
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-wsi-imageoptim-sea-otter-pole_22.jpg  

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  59. #59
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    How do we know this wasn't dropped from a chairlift? This thread is pure speculation, should be locked and deleted.

    Here are some more data points with no context.Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-mountaincycle.jpg
    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-enduro.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Reminds me of that one video of some guys in Cali where one guy was yelling for someone to "pedal pedal pedal" on some gap jump and the rider on an Intense Tracer carbon 50:50'd the landing, and the head tube got split in front by the fork. His reaction to it was dumbfounded. Heard Intense warrantied it.

    Do they not fasten the haves with screws on the Stamina too? I recall the Machines having them on the non-drive-side: https://nsmb.com/articles/riding-pol...e-in-whistler/
    Design change, the newer ones have no screws in front of the head tube. The screws are not structural if I understand right, they are just for "clamping" the 2 halves. I guess they act as a backup though.

    But, again, you could leap to the conclusion that the newer ones are weak there, but that may not be at all the right conclusion here.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Here are some more data points with no context.
    Haha. I had a mountain cycle moho. There was a picture of one broken in half just like that. Data points!

    Or not. In the case of the moho, it was given to a group of riders from the store I got mine with instructions "break it". So Justin did, with extreme 6'6 250lbs of prejudice.


    Actually, there is one possible data point from your pics out of context, but only because we know from countless other bikes. Dual crown forks can break your frame in a crash if it has not been built to accommodate the stress and the direct side impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    How do we know this wasn't dropped from a chairlift? This thread is pure speculation, should be locked and deleted.
    we don't. nobody has implied anything. nobody has said Pole is awesome or not awesome. and i have been clear to say that all frames fail.

    the english comprehension here is kiling me.

    spec·u·la·tion
    /ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/
    noun
    1.
    the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

    what theories have been put forth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    . nobody has said Pole is awesome or not awesome.

    no one has theorized anything.
    Post 3, post 5, post 42....

    YOU might not be doing that, but the pictures out of context cause others to do it...

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    A few months ago, when shopping for my new frame, I had a quote made for an Evolink. It ticked all my boxes : great geometry, aluminium frame, good company values, friendly service... But then I subscribed to the Pole facebook group and I read too many stories from Evolink owners who had misaligned frames, bad paint or finish (like paint missing brand new) and it put me off big time. Then the Pinkbike's Stamina review came out with the broken rear triangle and Pole's reaction seemed like it was nothing and they had this. Then this frame that split at the seam... Unfortunately, that's nothing to help Pole's reputation at that point, and it seems like all of their models have issues. They don't produce big batches, so their percentage of broken frames seems higher than most other brands. It's sad to see and if I was a current Stamina owner it wouldn't reassure me at all.

    I won't weight in on if it was right or wrong to post the pictures, but I guess those interested by the issue will learn more sometime soon (if I was Pole I'd keep people up to date on here) and everyone will then have a valuable experience on why this happened and how could this not happen again, be it user error or manufacturer error.

    I just hope that the rider is okay!
    Peace!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    we don't. nobody has implied anything. nobody has said Pole is awesome or not awesome. and i have been clear to say that all frames fail.

    the english comprehension here is kiling me.

    spec·u·la·tion
    /ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/
    noun
    1.
    the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

    what theories have been put forth?
    Don't worry man, you're melting someone's golden calf.

    Quote Originally Posted by smashysmashy View Post
    Post 3, post 5, post 42....

    YOU might not be doing that, but the pictures out of context cause others to do it...
    It causes nobody to do anything. People are not helpless thought victims, they can read the thread and look at the pics and come to their own conclusion. OP has repeatedly stated he didn't know what happened but the headtube pic was concerning.

    The OP isn't roasting anyone and he hasn't been trying to leverage anything.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnMyLevel View Post

    The OP isn't roasting anyone and he hasn't been trying to leverage anything.
    Posting the pictures without context is trolling. If I took a new Stumpy or Enduro frame and split the headtube in a vice, wouldn't people like to know rather than just putting the resulting picture up?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Posting the pictures without context is trolling. If I took a new Stumpy or Enduro frame and split the headtube in a vice, wouldn't people like to know rather than just putting the resulting picture up?
    Is the Stumpy or Enduro fashioned out of two halves? Asking for a friend.
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  68. #68
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    Watching this space. . . . .
    . . . . . . . .

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    just gonna leave this here, next to my bucket of airplane glue.
    this comment sure looks like its derogatory to me.

    the one image shows some black clips that almost look like they are drilled into the frame side? whats that about?

    back end of the bike looks failed as well. tire seems too close to the seat tube

    is it possible to over tighten the preload into the headset cups and create a press that wants to split the headtube. to me that would be a possible design area to address with proprietary parts. eg. i would make the headset cups in two oversized pieces. they would become a clamp that goes over the top and bottom of the glued headtube. setting preload holds them in place and makes it impossible to split the headtube.

    Pole... if you use my idea, please make a free bike for me in my specific clyde dimensions.

  70. #70
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    one thing I am sure of is that if someone posted pics from my private strava without my permission, I'd block him on strava (or any other social media)

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Is the Stumpy or Enduro fashioned out of two halves? Asking for a friend.
    LOL!

    I have no idea what happened with that particular bike, nor am I familiar with Pole, but even without a pic of a broken bike, I would be all sorts of suspicious of a clamshell headtube.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    this comment sure looks like its derogatory to me.

    the one image shows some black clips that almost look like they are drilled into the frame side? whats that about?

    back end of the bike looks failed as well. tire seems too close to the seat tube

    .
    The black dots are for cable routing and the back end is ok.

    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-pole-stamina-180-en-l-punasillanmetsa-2_2020_2-1280x853.jpg

  73. #73
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    First picture, "left" side down tube (right in the picture)

    Looks like some sort of clips that enter the frame. Broken zip ties from the cables being ripped out maybe?

  74. #74
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    I have colleagues (marketing / sales) who frequently take this kind of opportunities to stir negative atmosphere for competitors. I always get annoyed, and it’s even against our ethical guidelines to do so but I guess some people just can’t be saved.

    Our industry is not related to bikes, and I don’t ride a Pole (currently Mondraker) but really nobody will register a new account and start a thread like this about somebody elses bike unless they are on an agenda against the manufacturer.

  75. #75
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    I'm glad to see it for a data point. Several of the Pole's that I have knowledge of, have failed. This is enough to scare me away from the product personally.

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I'm glad to see it for a data point. Several of the Pole's that I have knowledge of, have failed. This is enough to scare me away from the product personally.

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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I'm glad to see it for a data point. Several of the Pole's that I have knowledge of, have failed. This is enough to scare me away from the product personally.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    A "data point" with no background information. Did this frame suffer from multiple cases on jumps? Is the rider 250 lbs? Is the rider 275 lbs? Was the frame already weakened from some previous impacts or a car accident while it was on a bike rack? The point is we have no idea, that's why jumping (no pun intended) to conclusions can be detrimental.

    All bike brands have a history of broken frames but there's no way for someone to accurately collect all that data into one statistical report. For example, I feel like I've seen a number of Yeti frames fail but I have no idea if it's a normal amount compared to all the other bike brands.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by manpurse View Post
    A "data point" with no background information. Did this frame suffer from multiple cases on jumps? Is the rider 250 lbs? Is the rider 275 lbs? Was the frame already weakened from some previous impacts or a car accident while it was on a bike rack? The point is we have no idea, that's why jumping (no pun intended) to conclusions can be detrimental.

    All bike brands have a history of broken frames but there's no way for someone to accurately collect all that data into one statistical report. For example, I feel like I've seen a number of Yeti frames fail but I have no idea if it's a normal amount compared to all the other bike brands.
    Possible jump casing and the weight of the rider are completely irrelevant for a 180mm freeride bike. I'm a crap jumper and case all of the time, unless I land on a big rock that cracks the 'cases' (BB) it's of no concern.

    I've seen bikes ran in to garages, mostly just destroys the car. But either way, one can clearly see the slack fork spread away from the frame. I'm 90% sure I recognize the trail system and have seen this bike on the trails. The rider is sub 200#, darn fast, and we have some nice jumps and drops at that trail system. Largest drop is probably 9' to flat. I've seen people do it on $3K Giant trail bikes, it should not break a Stamina (ironic!). I'm also pretty confidant that someone didn't smash their fancy frame in to their suburban home, go throw it on the trail and snap a Strava photo.

    I know of a person that bent their Pole on the first day of real riding. My opinion, is that the manufacturing technique, while awesome for being able to instantly make spec changes, just isn't a good one for strength. It also seems wasteful (an entire block of mined Al!) but who knows.

    I wish Leo all the luck in the world and I'm glad he responded, and I've lusted after his welded bikes.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Possible jump casing and the weight of the rider are completely irrelevant for a 180mm freeride bike. I'm a crap jumper and case all of the time, unless I land on a big rock that cracks the 'cases' (BB) it's of no concern.

    I've seen bikes ran in to garages, mostly just destroys the car. But either way, one can clearly see the slack fork spread away from the frame. I'm 90% sure I recognize the trail system and have seen this bike on the trails. The rider is sub 200#, darn fast, and we have some nice jumps and drops at that trail system. Largest drop is probably 9' to flat. I've seen people do it on $3K Giant trail bikes, it should not break a Stamina (ironic!). I'm also pretty confidant that someone didn't smash their fancy frame in to their suburban home, go throw it on the trail and snap a Strava photo.

    I know of a person that bent their Pole on the first day of real riding. My opinion, is that the manufacturing technique, while awesome for being able to instantly make spec changes, just isn't a good one for strength. It also seems wasteful (an entire block of mined Al!) but who knows.

    I wish Leo all the luck in the world and I'm glad he responded, and I've lusted after his welded bikes.
    I don't know. Is it okay for me to do a x2 again?

    Ridiculously cogent response. Nicely done.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    I wish Leo all the luck in the world and I'm glad he responded, and I've lusted after his welded bikes.
    Keep in mind this is more context than the OP provided. For all we know it could've been dropped off a bridge.

  81. #81
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    The problem is front and center in the pics....the head badge was not a load bearing head badge.
    I would advise not taking my advice.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by watermonkey View Post
    The problem is front and center in the pics....the head badge was not a load bearing head badge.
    Wouldn't it be crazy if that was the way pole ends up fixing this issue!

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  83. #83
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    Sure they can quickly make edits to the cnc files. Something like offsetting the headtube seam or smt. That would put current pole riders at quite uncomfy position though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    Wouldn't it be crazy if that was the way pole ends up fixing this issue!

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    sounds good to me

  85. #85
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    they should make the headtube a pipe with lugs up front. no clamshell

    then glue that into the clamshell frame. it'll be far stronger
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Keep in mind this is more context than the OP provided. For all we know it could've been dropped off a bridge.
    I've actually struggled with whether or not it was irresponsible to post the pics with them limited context I had. I agree, we all want more context, as it would help each of us come to our own informed decisions.
    i

    But, I keep coming back to this: we have a reasonable expectation that the pilot was riding his bike with the realm that it was designed, which, according to Pole, is a FR or DH bike. if it was ridden in any other manner, the frame would have been stressed less. if that is the case, then riding XC, gravel or road wouldn't have been a contributing factor.

    conversely, we do not have a reasonable expectation that the pilot was using a $4k frame to prop up a corner of his mobile home, using it as a pry bar to break a lock, using it as a spatula to flip burgers on a grill, or throwing it off of a bridge (which, by the way, wouldn't have resulted in a failure that levered the front wheel away from the bike, so we can eliminate that as possibility).

    Pole would have acknowledged quickly of the misuse....if they were suspicious of it. They did not imply that context at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    It also seems wasteful (an entire block of mined Al!) but who knows.
    i can't accurately speak for their design process, but, my guess is that you start with a 7075 ingot from which to CNC each clamshell. All of the "waste" can be recovered and re melted in to a new ingot. lather, rinse, repeat. from a materials standpoint, it should be much less wasteful than a carbon frame, and also should be 100% recyclable. personally, i love the idea and the agility in which change can be made at the end of a keystroke (i.e. change your CNC code). if they deem it necessary, they can engineer change(s) rather than having to fashion new molds for each size.

  88. #88
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    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-polestamina3-4ths.jpg

    Here's a 3/4 finished front triangle. Judging from the material on the unfinished side's edges, it's probably flashing from being near-net-shape-forged before machining.

    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-actofiveptraincncblock.jpg

    Another brand's raw material before machining.

    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-polemachiningaluchips.jpg

    Pole illustrating the size of their machining chips, implying that the smaller chips reflect a more expensive process.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

  89. #89
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    Catastrophic failure Pole Stamina  180mm-stamina-frames-making-03-2020-33.jpg

    Maybe you can make some details here too, in the making of a batch of Stamina frames.
    "The challenge is not in developing new ideas, but in escaping old ideas."

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    i can't accurately speak for their design process, but, my guess is that you start with a 7075 ingot from which to CNC each clamshell.
    Plate, not ingot (or billet). They are "wasting" at least 95% of it.

    All of the "waste" can be recovered and re melted in to a new ingot. lather, rinse, repeat. from a materials standpoint, it should be much less wasteful than a carbon frame, and also should be 100% recyclable.
    Aluminium chips are mostly worthless to recycle, you get very little scrap value for them. the chips are very thin (0.001" thick or even less) and oxidised, so when you go to remelt them, you might get 20-50% of the aluminium back.

    personally, i love the idea and the agility in which change can be made at the end of a keystroke (i.e. change your CNC code). if they deem it necessary, they can engineer change(s) rather than having to fashion new molds for each size.
    This is what's got them in trouble in the first place... too many changes. That was the problem with the pinkbike "incident". They supposedly made an alternative rear end and sent it by mistake on the test bike. My friend did the same thing with his company (he made cnc machines) literally every 5 machines he would alter the design instead of just taking more time to test the first one, make more prototypes, then finally release one that he wouldn't have to change for years.

    Look that a Thomson seatpost. Sure, not fair to compare to a simplistic object like a post, but they came up with that design 25 years ago, tested it thoroughly, and have not made a single change to it since.

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    Kind of a bad example to use Thomson, considering the many reports of breakage and their PR of saying the faults were user-related, like claiming their analysis found the product was over torqued. They have an aerospace side that keeps them in business. Not changing caused them to be left behind too, like how Mavic wheels got left behind. Shimano and Chris King almost got left behind too, sitting tight on products they thoroughly tested without updates. Even 1upUSA racks and Cane Creek headsets saw updates, as well as legendary products in other industries like Skilsaw handheld wormdrive rotary saws. The CC DBa saw a few updates, but once it stopped getting them...

    When tooling needs to be replaced, due to wear, it's an opportunity to incorporate new changes, since you gotta spend $$$$ anyways. It's why a lot of things get updated. It's also how a lot of new comers can take market share, by filling in a void of demand with a new product, like wider lightweight rims with tubeless ready friendly and more dent-resistant design. I'd rather have a generic 1-piece forged alternative on my bike over a Thomson. People probably rather have a more generic mtb frame over a Pole too, seeing how spending so much still gets them something that can fail. I guess that's what the Evolink line is for.

    https://polebicycles.com/we-are-not-perfect-after-all/

    Here's Pole's response to the XC swingarm.

    Anyone able to comment on the aluminum waste? I'm still not sure how a pole frame even starts before machining. I hope it's not cast, to get its initial shape to save on machining time, but the flash being shaped like hot metal flow on that one pic makes me consider it as a possibility.

    P.S. I read somewhere the word of David Parrett, Thomson boss, on the failures. Saying stuff like it takes hundreds lbs of torque to break something in lab testing, and pointing out the damage of the fastener's seat on the failed parts, saying that it's similar to the damage their testing caused, that they couldn't replicate it torqueing things normally. I really don't want to believe that they didn't factor in how a big American's weight can wrench clamps apart with the leverage of a saddle pushed back on a bike they downsized on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Anyone able to comment on the aluminum waste? I'm still not sure how a pole frame even starts before machining. I hope it's not cast, to get its initial shape to save on machining time, but the flash being shaped like hot metal flow on that one pic makes me consider it as a possibility.
    Ha, I thought you were trolling about the "flash". That's a saw cut to remove excess, though it looks pretty scruffy. They will start as plate - possibly water jet or bandsaw cut like the other one in your photos to remove the bilk of the material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Kind of a bad example to use Thomson, considering the many reports of breakage and their PR of saying the faults were user-related, like claiming their analysis found the product was over torqued. They have an aerospace side that keeps them in business. Not changing caused them to be left behind too, like how Mavic wheels got left behind. Shimano and Chris King almost got left behind too, sitting tight on products they thoroughly tested without updates. Even 1upUSA racks and Cane Creek headsets saw updates, as well as legendary products in other industries like Skilsaw handheld wormdrive rotary saws. The CC DBa saw a few updates, but once it stopped getting them...
    Thomson may be an extreme example of doing nothing, but the point is the same. You need some product stability, especially on one that can take some time before showing major flaws.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by smashysmashy View Post
    Ha, I thought you were trolling about the "flash". That's a saw cut to remove excess, though it looks pretty scruffy. They will start as plate - possibly water jet or bandsaw cut like the other one in your photos to remove the bilk of the material.
    Edges look like excess flash that was snapped off or chipped away. Way too rough of an edge for any machine work.

    I'd expect flatter flash from die forging, unless the wrinkling is from snapping it off.

    I honestly think you're spreading misinfo by saying it's machined from plate. I tried to show evidence. I just can't interpret it too well. I'd believe you if Pole showed large containers of scrap aluminum waste, like vats of large machining chips. Dunno how they'd consider that profitable to machine that much, but then again they did raise their price by a lot. Easier to doubt you than doubt someone being proud of being eco conscious to be so transparent and upfront about it, esp considering the technical knowledge of your post history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Edges look like excess flash that was snapped off or chipped away. Way too rough of an edge for any machine work.

    I'd expect flatter flash from die forging, unless the wrinkling is from snapping it off.

    I honestly think you're spreading misinfo by saying it's machined from plate. I tried to show evidence. I just can't interpret it too well. I'd believe you if Pole showed large containers of scrap aluminum waste, like vats of large machining chips. Dunno how they'd consider that profitable to machine that much, but then again they did raise their price by a lot. Easier to doubt you than doubt someone being proud of being eco conscious to be so transparent and upfront about it, esp considering the technical knowledge of your post history.
    When you machine one side, a small amount if flat area is left at the bottom - 1/16" lets say for round numbers - from where you had to hold the material down to the machine. Then you'd flip it over and machine the other side. Makes life easier to remove that flat area - with a saw or some other means. That edge is pretty rough I agree. So maybe not a saw, maybe just ripped out with nippers or shears.

    That's just from looking at the picture. You are right in that we don't see much of anything else and the raw stock is unknown, but there's really only a handful of ways this is even possible to make. If they were forging, they would need dies that cost a fortune and would make no sense. Forging parts that big costs millions of dollars. 7075 cant be cast. So, you're left with machining from solid plate

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    Can't it start from sheet metal form, like off a large roll, which is then pressed like a wheelbarrow and finished off in CNC?

    Intense, Foes, and Orange made some of their hollow structures this way, except it's not 7075 (they weld instead of bond). They get water jet cut sheet metal and use rubber pad forming to shape them.
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    Short answer is no. Couple reasons. 1 being obviously the shape complexity and variable thicknesses. The other gets back to the same reason you wouldn't forge it. Something that large needs a megaton press, which gets back to big dollars even for an open die and rubber pad. You also have to form it annealed (soft) then heat treat, etc etc. Likely wouldn't even work with 7075. That technique is derived from aircraft forming - huge low complexity parts formed with a rubber pad over a wood plug pattern on the largest presses ever conceived, with a wartime budget. It's really cool for bikes, but it cant do this.

    It's machined from plate

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    Quote Originally Posted by smashysmashy View Post
    When you machine one side, a small amount if flat area is left at the bottom - 1/16" lets say for round numbers - from where you had to hold the material down to the machine. Then you'd flip it over and machine the other side. Makes life easier to remove that flat area - with a saw or some other means. That edge is pretty rough I agree. So maybe not a saw, maybe just ripped out with nippers or shears.

    That's just from looking at the picture. You are right in that we don't see much of anything else and the raw stock is unknown, but there's really only a handful of ways this is even possible to make. If they were forging, they would need dies that cost a fortune and would make no sense. Forging parts that big costs millions of dollars. 7075 cant be cast. So, you're left with machining from solid plate
    rather than "clamping" the solid plate down from its edges, could they tap and anchor the plate from the inside of the frame clam shell, allowing the machine to cut fully through the plate. same thing done from the opposite side. once complete, the residual bosses could be remove by hand, with the imperfections remaining inside the clamshells. food for thought....

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    we can agree to disagree on that. we have no data on how much a pro rides a frame before its swapped or how their equipment differs from wares pushed out to the consumer. some would even argue that pros are less abusive on their equipment as they more routinely find the transitions rather than over/under jumping. but that is a debate for another thread.

    as far as data is concerned, the pictures are not opinion. there is no "i think" the head tube split. we hope, for all parties involved, that it is an anomaly and it will be the only one. for now, the "n" of split head tubes is at least 1.
    Funny you disagree on that since you don't have data, but your post had no data and you thought it was useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    This is interesting in that several people have pondered the "misuse/abuse" position of this. What is misuse of a 180mm bike with w a 63.5* head angle? What does Pole state as the limitations of its use? They do sponsor athletes to ride them like the stole them on DH worth courses (By the way, Enduro is a race format, not a bike style). This is not a shot any bike manufacturer, just an exploration of what we think a bike like this designed to withstand?
    Anything has limits, reminds of a post where some guys claims an Intense frame just broke casing a jump.

    Then someone that was there clears the record and mentions the guy kept casing the jump repeatedly until it broke. So yea back to your OP, worthless.
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    rather than "clamping" the solid plate down from its edges, could they tap and anchor the plate from the inside of the frame clam shell, allowing the machine to cut fully through the plate. same thing done from the opposite side. once complete, the residual bosses could be remove by hand, with the imperfections remaining inside the clamshells. food for thought....
    Lots of ways you can fixture it, from plate, but we know that they left stock at the bottom in op 1, cause we can see it Fixturing is probably 90% of the work figuring out how to cut something like this. Ok, maybe not 90... but a lot.

    My CNC machines are too small to make a frame like this, so I've never given It a whole lot of thought. We did ponder doing a wood one Renovo style on a bigger woodworking machine, which is more or less the same principle.

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Can't it start from sheet metal form, like off a large roll, which is then pressed like a wheelbarrow and finished off in CNC?

    Intense, Foes, and Orange made some of their hollow structures this way, except it's not 7075 (they weld instead of bond). They get water jet cut sheet metal and use rubber pad forming to shape them.
    Interesting thing about Foes was how stiff they were, every single little aspect and detail was engineered to make it laterally stiffer, from linkages that did nothing for leverage, only added stiffness, to pivot size, to frame members as short as possible, etc. Despite being very poor suspension for many years with the Curnut debacle, I definitely respected the frame stiffness and and thoughtfulness that went into it. After the goes, I got my turner, and it was pretty stiff, still better than most, but not Foes-stiff. I find the stiff frames ride off-camber stuff much better, not flexing and binding.

    Orange wasn't on the same planet, elevated seat-stay mono-pivot/mast design allows for a ton of rear end flex and for it to be transferred to the shock, no matter how stiff they make the front end.

    All that said though, CNCing two halves and then gluing them together is just dumb, from an engineering perspective there are far better ways to make a stiff frame and it wastes a ton of material, which takes a ton of energy to re-smelt. I respect when a company does something that ups the bar and I'm willing to pay for it when they do, but this design does not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Funny you disagree on that since you don't have data, but your post had no data and you thought it was useful.
    kinda, sorta, not really. i often screw things up and was feeling the pressure to admit that the photo was not a data point. so i looked it up:

    don't shoot the messenger, but according to dictionary.com, a data point is a single fact or piece of information. other sources are consistentent in suggesting that any single fact or observation is a data point.

    if the above is reliable, then the photo, is a data point. it shows a failed head tube.

    to say that "these bikes withstand all kinds of long term abuse from the pro riders" is like me posting "there was a split head tube on a bike" with no proof of it actually happening. We don't know it to be a fact until there is evidence to support it. So it absolutely could also be a factual data point(s), if we knew two things: 1) the frames are the exact frames that us mortals can buy and 2) the same frame is ridden through the full season. Until Pole exposes that information, it's not analagous.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Anything has limits, reminds of a post where some guys claims an Intense frame just broke casing a jump.

    Then someone that was there clears the record and mentions the guy kept casing the jump repeatedly until it broke. So yea back to your OP, worthless.
    in regards to my comment "we can agree to disagree," that was based off of the OPINION that pros are harder on bikes. I am not convinced that is true, and you seem to agree with me with the above statement on the intense bike. would a pro have avoided multiple cases? did the non pro's lack of skill put more stress on the frame? we may never know. Could be right, could be wrong, could be situational.

    So yeah, back to my OP. The photo is a fact (Pole acknowledged it as such), therefore, by definition its a data point. And since you agree with me that lack of skill and timing can be harder on equipent, worthwhile, hahaha.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradelap View Post
    kinda, sorta, not really. i often screw things up and was feeling the pressure to admit that the photo was not a data point. so i looked it up:

    don't shoot the messenger, but according to dictionary.com, a data point is a single fact or piece of information. other sources are consistentent in suggesting that any single fact or observation is a data point.

    if the above is reliable, then the photo, is a data point. it shows a failed head tube.

    to say that "these bikes withstand all kinds of long term abuse from the pro riders" is like me posting "there was a split head tube on a bike" with no proof of it actually happening. We don't know it to be a fact until there is evidence to support it. So it absolutely could also be a factual data point(s), if we knew two things: 1) the frames are the exact frames that us mortals can buy and 2) the same frame is ridden through the full season. Until Pole exposes that information, it's not analagous.



    in regards to my comment "we can agree to disagree," that was based off of the OPINION that pros are harder on bikes. I am not convinced that is true, and you seem to agree with me with the above statement on the intense bike. would a pro have avoided multiple cases? did the non pro's lack of skill put more stress on the frame? we may never know. Could be right, could be wrong, could be situational.

    So yeah, back to my OP. The photo is a fact (Pole acknowledged it as such), therefore, by definition its a data point. And since you agree with me that lack of skill and timing can be harder on equipent, worthwhile, hahaha.
    I don't really give a shit what dictionary.com says.

    For all anyone knows your picture shows a failure after the owner dropped the bike off a bridge, or left it on the roof rack when they drove into a garage. So yea useless without context.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I don't really give a shit what dictionary.com says.

    For all anyone knows your picture shows a failure after the owner dropped the bike off a bridge, or left it on the roof rack when they drove into a garage. So yea useless without context.
    Useless to YOU.
    Others may feel differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I don't really give a shit what dictionary.com says.

    For all anyone knows your picture shows a failure after the owner dropped the bike off a bridge, or left it on the roof rack when they drove into a garage. So yea useless without context.
    without definitions, context is irrelevant...words matter.

    without reading comprehension, context is useless.
    Post #1 context: bike is on a trail, pic is from strava. this implies that the bike was being ridden on dirt and neither thrown off of a bridge nor run into a garage.
    Post #15 context: flat landing from an overjump.
    Post #52 context: Pole "we will warranty his frame." this implies that the being wasn't being misused or abused. this confirms the context in Post #1.

    my guess is that you care about words and are great at reading comprehension, but all of that becomes a moot point if you are so hell bent on being right that you change your argument from "not a data point" to "no context" when it clearly is a data point, and there is context.

    it might not be useful to you, and that is fine. as more context becomes available, maybe it will become more useful to you, but who knows.

    this feels like the opposite of the "pics or it didn't happen" argument, haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Possible jump casing and the weight of the rider are completely irrelevant for a 180mm freeride bike. I'm a crap jumper and case all of the time, unless I land on a big rock that cracks the 'cases' (BB) it's of no concern.

    I've seen bikes ran in to garages, mostly just destroys the car. But either way, one can clearly see the slack fork spread away from the frame. I'm 90% sure I recognize the trail system and have seen this bike on the trails. The rider is sub 200#, darn fast, and we have some nice jumps and drops at that trail system. Largest drop is probably 9' to flat. I've seen people do it on $3K Giant trail bikes, it should not break a Stamina (ironic!). I'm also pretty confidant that someone didn't smash their fancy frame in to their suburban home, go throw it on the trail and snap a Strava photo.

    I know of a person that bent their Pole on the first day of real riding. My opinion, is that the manufacturing technique, while awesome for being able to instantly make spec changes, just isn't a good one for strength. It also seems wasteful (an entire block of mined Al!) but who knows.

    I wish Leo all the luck in the world and I'm glad he responded, and I've lusted after his welded bikes.
    Actually, it was at Walnut, which for you out of towners is the greenest of trails you would take a beginner to. Good for an XC ride, but would never break this bike. The guy does ride fast and hits the features at plenty of other places in Central Texas, but this just looks like a defect to me.

    To be fair to Pole, that stuff can happen to any bike brand with enough manufactured. I'd be super annoyed if my $4k+ aluminum frame broke for just about any reason though.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Actually, it was at Walnut, which for you out of towners is the greenest of trails you would take a beginner to. Good for an XC ride, but would never break this bike. The guy does ride fast and hits the features at plenty of other places in Central Texas, but this just looks like a defect to me.
    Isn't WC a cyclocross course? most of it, at least, except the pump track.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    ...For all anyone knows your picture shows a failure after the owner dropped the bike off a bridge, or left it on the roof rack when they drove into a garage. So yea useless without context.
    In an ironic twist, it seems to me that it is you who is tossing around the wildest speculation of anyone on here, in support of your position that without context, the opening post is nothing but speculation.

    On top of that, and no offence intended, but I don't need nor want you nor anyone else screening for me what it is that I should and shouldn't see and read. I am plenty capable of drawing whatever conclusions I want from whatever, and applying whatever provisos that I wish to it.

    To me, whether this is a "data point" in the truest sense of that term, is irrelevant. I think it is, but who cares? It is information that is of interest to me. So is the PB incident. So was Pole's reaction to it.
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  109. #109
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    any news on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrallen View Post
    Actually, it was at Walnut, which for you out of towners is the greenest of trails you would take a beginner to. Good for an XC ride, but would never break this bike. The guy does ride fast and hits the features at plenty of other places in Central Texas, but this just looks like a defect to me.

    To be fair to Pole, that stuff can happen to any bike brand with enough manufactured. I'd be super annoyed if my $4k+ aluminum frame broke for just about any reason though.
    Oh look context, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike_futurist View Post
    any news on this?
    https://forums.mtbr.com/search.php?d...st&showposts=1
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